Controversy #1

[Retro Formula 1]

Is vettel allowed to fall that far back under the SC?

[christophulus]

40.9 Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within ten car lengths of it and all remaining cars must keep the formation as tight as possible.

40.11 In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or
braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.

So to answer your question, "maybe".

[Retro Formula 1]

40.9 The safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are lined up behind him.
Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within ten car lengths of it (except under 40.11 below) and all remaining cars must keep the formation as tight as possible.

40.11 When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be displayed on the timing monitors and the car's orange lights will be extinguished This will be the signal to the teams and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.
At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.
In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.
As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and, other than on the last lap of the race, replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.

[christophulus]

Vettel's under investigation!

[Retro Formula 1]

Now under investigation.

[Mark]

Looks like a penalty is coming!

[Retro Formula 1]

Looks like a penalty is coming!

Pretty clear cut but the Stewards taking their time.

Penalty eventually.

[Mark]

Drive through.

[Retro Formula 1]

Penalty

[Retro Formula 1]

"Why did I get a drive through?"

Because you broke the rules!

You would think the drivers may know the rules. Us mere fans do!

[markabilly]

DUH.......

anyway why SC????
Speed never said...is this the nascar kind of deal to make races more interesting?????

Imaginery debris????

[Retro Formula 1]

DUH.......

anyway why SC????
Speed never said...is this the nascar kind of deal to make races more interesting?????

Imaginery debris????

Big bit of wing on the track.

I think RBR should pay me £100k to talk to their drivers about how to avoid penalties. It would save them millions.

[ArrowsFA1]

If Vettel wants to win the WDC he can't make these kind of basic errors. He had the car and the pace to win the race with ease.

Or was it done under instructions from the team?

Perhaps he was hanging back to give Webber a head start on Alonso so that Mark could make it a Red Bull 1-2.

[Retro Formula 1]

Perhaps he was hanging back to give Webber a head start on Alonso so that Mark could make it a Red Bull 1-2.

Think so but he could have done it easily after the SC came in. Not a lot of intelligence in that team apart from the designers.

[ioan]

40.9 The safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are lined up behind him.
Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within ten car lengths of it (except under 40.11 below) and all remaining cars must keep the formation as tight as possible.

40.11 When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be displayed on the timing monitors and the car's orange lights will be extinguished This will be the signal to the teams and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.
At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.
In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.
As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and, other than on the last lap of the race, replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.

Looks like the rules do not specify any distance for the cars following the lead car. Strange decision today.

[Retro Formula 1]

Looks like the rules do not specify any distance for the cars following the lead car. Strange decision today.

I suggest running 100m behind Webber constituted as not quite being as tight as possible ;)

[ioan]

I suggest running 100m behind Webber constituted as not quite being as tight as possible ;)

As tight as possible is a stupid and not quantifiable requirement.
What if someone decided to keep in the gearbox of the car in front and run into it when the one in front brakes? Wouldn't that be because he tried to follow the stupid rules?!

[BDunnell]

I was under the impression that the rule was perfectly clear.

[wedge]

How do you measure 10 car lengths from a screen?

[Hawkmoon]

How do you measure 10 car lengths from a screen?

Vettel was half the pit straight behind Webber. I'm pretty sure that's more than 10 car lengths.

Was it the team's call? They told Vettel to keep his mouth shut as he was finishing the race. Looks like we might get two uncomfortable post-race press conferences in a row.

[Mark]

Vettel looking like a petulent child on the podium!

[truefan72]

I was under the impression that the rule was perfectly clear.

me too.

Vettel has only himself to blame
even his initial pit entry was suspect in my book

[ioan]

How do you measure 10 car lengths from a screen?

And how do you measure it from behind a F1 car's steering wheel. Mission impossible. But hey we deal with the FIA and their 'intelligent' rules.

[ioan]

Vettel looking like a petulent child on the podium!

The team screwed him again, what should he do? Be happy?!

[christophulus]

I'm waiting to see whether Vettel wants to make the team uncomfortable and mentions "team orders", I assume he was asked to hold back and let Webber get away?

[BDunnell]

And how do you measure it from behind a F1 car's steering wheel. Mission impossible. But hey we deal with the FIA and their 'intelligent' rules.

Are you saying the FIA didn't actually measure the distance? Somehow, I doubt this.

[ioan]

I'm waiting to see whether Vettel mentions "team orders", I assume he was asked to hold back and let Webber get away?

You're assuming right, which makes this another epic fail by RBR team management.

[BDunnell]

The team screwed him again, what should he do? Be happy?!

It is surely up to the driver, and the driver alone, as to how closely they follow the safety car or the car in front behind the safety car. That is no-one else's responsibility.

[Valve Bounce]

me too.

Vettel has only himself to blame
even his initial pit entry was suspect in my book

Agreed

[christophulus]

You're assuming right, which makes this another epic fail by RBR team management.

Although Horner has flatly denied it on the BBC, we'll see.

[Valve Bounce]

Are you saying the FIA didn't actually measure the distance? Somehow, I doubt this.

The overhead shot made the distance between the cars easy to check

[ioan]

Are you saying the FIA didn't actually measure the distance? Somehow, I doubt this.

I am saying that it is impossible for the driver to measure anything from where they sit in the cars and all this crap about being as close as possible (subjective quantity at best) or keeping x car lengths (impossible to measure when sitting in a F1 car) are another example of crappy F1 rules made in a way that gives the FIA the chance to penalize or not a driver, function of the need to spice up the show or not.

[BDunnell]

The overhead shot made the distance between the cars easy to check

And I should think rather more advanced mechanisms than that make it very easy to ascertain the distances involved.

[ioan]

It is surely up to the driver, and the driver alone, as to how closely they follow the safety car or the car in front behind the safety car. That is no-one else's responsibility.

Maybe we'll talk again when you won't be biased against a certain driver.

[Mark]

Horner has said there were no 'orders'

[ioan]

Horner has said there were no 'orders'

Domenicali said the say one week ago.

[BDunnell]

I am saying that it is impossible for the driver to measure anything from where they sit in the cars and all this crap about being as close as possible (subjective quantity at best) or keeping x car lengths (impossible to measure when sitting in a F1 car) are another example of crappy F1 rules made in a way that gives the FIA the chance to penalize or not a driver, function of the need to spice up the show or not.

Ah. I do agree that the 'as close as possible' is probably too subjective. But, as things stand, these are the rules which have to be followed. Most drivers seemed to manage to do this today.

[wedge]

Although Horner has flatly denied it on the BBC, we'll see.

With that stupid smirk on his face, as per usual.

He's turning into Ron Dennis

[christophulus]

Domenicali said the say one week ago.

I doubt Horner would say that if the radio would incriminate him. I'm not sure how you'd say "hold up the field and let Webber get away" without being completely obvious.

[ioan]

With that stupid smirk on his face, as per usual.

He's turning into Ron Dennis

He's still far from being as smart as Ron though, whom for the record I never liked either.

[BDunnell]

He's still far from being as smart as Ron though, whom for the record I never liked either.

I don't think the 'for the record' there is necessary. Most of us are, somehow, well aware of this fact already!

[ioan]

I doubt Horner would say that if the radio would incriminate him. I'm not sure how you'd say "hold up the field and let Webber get away" without being completely obvious.

Is it me or today we've got much less radio communications, and almost impossible to hear ones on top of that?!
Looks like the FIA and FOM are not eager anymore to give us he possibility to judge for ourselves what goes on behind the curtains of the race.

[truefan72]

I am saying that it is impossible for the driver to measure anything from where they sit in the cars and all this crap about being as close as possible (subjective quantity at best) or keeping x car lengths (impossible to measure when sitting in a F1 car) are another example of crappy F1 rules made in a way that gives the FIA the chance to penalize or not a driver, function of the need to spice up the show or not.
ioan it was clear that he was waaaay beyond an acceptable distance at the restart and the penalty was just. Whether you want to have certified measurable distances or an issue with the rules, the fact remains he broke a current rule ( much like ferrari last week) and rightfully paid the price. For a second I actually thought that Vettel was doing Webber a favor, but now in his post race comments he is giving a winding explanation as to why he got a drive through. Basically saying that he now understands the penalty. " I was sleeping at the restart" his words

[ioan]

I don't think the 'for the record' there is necessary. Most of us are, somehow, well aware of this fact already!

I was thinking to the ones who didn't hang around here for 7 years or so! ;)

[christophulus]

Is it me or today we've got much less radio communications, and almost impossible to hear ones on top of that?!
Looks like the FIA and FOM are not eager anymore to give us he possibility to judge for ourselves what goes on behind the curtains of the race.

Yeah I noticed that. I thought they were meant to be releasing a load of extra footage to show how the stewards came to their decisions?

I can see Bernard's hand in all of this..

[Hawkmoon]

Maybe we'll talk again when you won't be biased against a certain driver.


C'mon ioan, give it a rest. They've got bloody GPS on all the cars and know exactly where each car is on the circuit.

[ioan]

ioan it was clear that he was waaaay beyond an acceptable distance at the restart and the penalty was just. Whether you want to have certified measurable distances or an issue with the rules, the fact remains he broke a current rule ( much like ferrari last week) and rightfully paid the price. For a second I actually thought that Vettel was doing Webber a favor, but now in his post race comments he is giving a winding explanation as to why he got a drive through. Basically saying that he now understands the penalty. " I was sleeping at the restart" his words

So, one week ago we didn't believe Massa when he said it was his decision and today we will believe that Vettel was sleeping at the restart. Let's not use double measures.

RBR did a mistake when they only called in Vettel under SC so they tried to remedy that by helping a bit Webber to pull out a gap before his stop only that they forgot to mention to Vettel that the rules are so stupidly worded that he needs to stay as close as possible to Webber (whatever the rule makers might want to express with that).

[ioan]

C'mon ioan, give it a rest. They've got bloody GPS on all the cars and know exactly where each car is on the circuit.

They sure have, but does Vettel have live access to those measurements so that he can keep as close as possible, not to close not too far?
He certainly doesn't, so what exactly was that you wanted to prove, because I never said that the FIA doesn't have the means needed to measure the distance between cars?!

[ioan]

Yeah I noticed that. I thought they were meant to be releasing a load of extra footage to show how the stewards came to their decisions?

I can see Bernard's hand in all of this..

Glad I am not the only one who noticed this.

[BDunnell]

So, one week ago we didn't believe Massa when he said it was his decision and today we will believe that Vettel was sleeping at the restart. Let's not use double measures.

It is possible, ioan, for one driver to say something that isn't true about what happened in a race and another to say something that is true.

[Dave B]

Given that the incident in question happened on the start finish straight it would be pretty easy to work out from the timing beams.

I agree that "10 car lengths" may be hard for a driver to judge from the cockpit, but I suspect that had Vettel dropped back 11 or 12 he may have got away with it. However he was almost the entire length of the straight behind, so I find hard to muster any sympathy for Vettel.

[truefan72]

So, one week ago we didn't believe Massa when he said it was his decision and today we will believe that Vettel was sleeping at the restart. Let's not use double measures.

RBR did a mistake when they only called in Vettel under SC so they tried to remedy that by helping a bit Webber to pull out a gap before his stop only that they forgot to mention to Vettel that the rules are so stupidly worded that he needs to stay as close as possible to Webber (whatever the rule makers might want to express with that).

did you hear the post race interview?
It wasn't damage control, it wasn't even team speak, he was frank and honest about the whole episode and said in retrospect that it was probably his fault. Actually it earned him a few points back in my book for being man enough to admit his failure instead of concocting some elaborate scheme and flat out telling lies when it was pretty clear to all.

[Retro Formula 1]

did you hear the post race interview?
It wasn't damage control, it wasn't even team speak, he was frank and honest about the whole episode and said in retrospect that it was probably his fault. Actually it earned him a few points back in my book for being man enough to admit his failure instead of concocting some elaborate scheme and flat out telling lies when it was pretty clear to all.

I agree with that. He fessed up and admitted his cock-up.

[Ent]

They sure have, but does Vettel have live access to those measurements so that he can keep as close as possible, not to close not too far?

Seriously, if he can't estimate 10 car lengths then he deserves the penalty for not being correctly prepared for racing. If is clear from the replays that he'd be lucky to be within 20 car lengths at one point. I'm sure the stewards allow a certain amount of leeway for the reasons people have already mentioned, but in Vettel's case, it wasn't a misjudgment, but a complete stuff-up.

What is clear from Vettel's actions and his interview after the race is that Vettel was unaware of the rule that he had to stay within a certain distance of the car in front. Even if the team gave him orders to hold up Alonso, he should have known that he would need to do that from after the first safety car line and it would have been his responsibility to stay within the right distance of the car in front until that point.

Ignorance of the rules is no defense for breaking them. Nor is "how can anyone know exactly how far 10 car lengths is" a valid argument when the driver has already confessed to not knowing the rule anyway.

[Daika]

Vettel deserved the penalty. But who knew about this rule before the race? Ik make sense but when you are watching those things go unnotice.

[Dave B]

Vettel deserved the penalty. But who knew about this rule before the race? Ik make sense but when you are watching those things go unnotice.
I knew about it, and I'm not paid millions to drive a Formula One car.

[Daika]

I knew about it, and I'm not paid millions to drive a Formula One car.

I was clueless about it and since i don't get paid millions that is about right.

[airshifter]

did you hear the post race interview?
It wasn't damage control, it wasn't even team speak, he was frank and honest about the whole episode and said in retrospect that it was probably his fault. Actually it earned him a few points back in my book for being man enough to admit his failure instead of concocting some elaborate scheme and flat out telling lies when it was pretty clear to all.

Hard to say really. Vettel claimed he was caught out and thought they were doing 1 more lap behind the safety car, so he was just trying to get more heat in the tires and not concerned about the gap.

With the tension between him and Webber lately, I don't think he would have done Mark any favors. Especially seeing that if somehow Webber beat Alonso out, there was a chance he would beat Sebastian out as well.


Personally I think the issue is that most of the time the running of the cars behind the safety car isn't really expected to be close or uniform. Similar to the Ferrari orders last week, this was just such a blatant disregard of the rules that they didn't have much choice other than to do something about it.

[Ari]

The team screwed him again, what should he do? Be happy?!


Would love to be a fly on the wall and know the truth. Sadly, in this one, we never will.

Horner said they did not ask Vettel to slow down and create a gap. Vettel said the same thing. In fact, he said his radio was not working properly so the guys did not tell him the SC was in this lap. He said you get so used to them telling you, that you hardly concentrate on it yourself as you get told whats happening.

Anyway, something interesting for mine. On Vettels warm down lap his radio man said something along the lines of "don't say anything now, we will talk about this when you get in and debrief then". To me that indeed screams of teamplay gone wrong BUT unlike Webber Vettel may well have been big enough to not make a scene.

As I said, I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall.

Somewhere between team play gone wrong which cost Vettel the race or Vettel being sleepy behind the wheel.

[Valve Bounce]

Would love to be a fly on the wall and know the truth. Sadly, in this one, we never will.

Horner said they did not ask Vettel to slow down and create a gap. Vettel said the same thing. In fact, he said his radio was not working properly so the guys did not tell him the SC was in this lap. He said you get so used to them telling you, that you hardly concentrate on it yourself as you get told whats happening.

Anyway, something interesting for mine. On Vettels warm down lap his radio man said something along the lines of "don't say anything now, we will talk about this when you get in and debrief then". To me that indeed screams of teamplay gone wrong BUT unlike Webber Vettel may well have been big enough to not make a scene.

As I said, I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall.

Somewhere between team play gone wrong which cost Vettel the race or Vettel being sleepy behind the wheel.

If it had been his own fault that he missed the SC going in by not paying attention, I doubt that he would have been so mad during his drive through.
I reckon he was told, one way or another to back Alonso down so that Mark Webber could get a flyer and RBR would have then scored a one/two with Vettel winning.

A case of the best laid plans of mice and men..................

[ArrowsFA1]

I found out that the FIA decreed Vettel was 110m, or about 22 car lengths, behind Webber. More than double the limit...
http://twitter.com/adamcooperf1/status/20125558461

[Mark]

Of course there is no set 'limit' for anyone except the person directly behind the safety car. Merely that you should be "as close as possible".

[ioan]

Of course there is no set 'limit' for anyone except the person directly behind the safety car. Merely that you should be "as close as possible".

Exactly. But we are talking about FIA rules where everything is as murky as needed to spice up the show with penalties handed out/or not exactly at the right moment.

[Mia 01]

Seb has admitted that he was in the wrong.

Please MS take a leaf out of his book.