Capital of the World?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

We have already had the 'Greatest city in the world' thread but which city do you think of being the most important in the world?

In terms of financial importance we have two standout candidates in New York and London. But in terms of population Tokyo is by far the biggest with almost 40million in its metropolitan area! :eek:

[Eki]

Tampere

obHDZg4R-Ig

[Jag_Warrior]

Personally I'm hoping to see either Athens or Rome make a comeback.

We didn't have all these dang problems when the Romans were running the show!

[Sonic]

Personally I'm hoping to see either Athens or Rome make a comeback.

We didn't have all these dang problems when the Romans were running the show!

FACT! I've already become polytheistic and now I've got a different God to blame for each of my woes! ;)

[Eki]

Personally I'm hoping to see either Athens or Rome make a comeback.

We didn't have all these dang problems when the Romans were running the show!
Really? There were barbarians at the gates constantly, and finally they broke through.

[Drew]

Plymouth. The pilgrims set sail from Plymouth to America. America = the world, thus Plymouth should be capital of the world.

Although i'm going to guess the capital of the world will be Shanghai / Beijing.

[Koz]

Personally I'm hoping to see either Athens or Rome make a comeback.

Well... Babylon is making a comeback... Kinda.. :s

Singapore?
The only real city state in the world today. Nah. :(

[Captain VXR]

Melksham.

[Easy Drifter]

Churchill, Manitoba, Canada. All those politicians will provide plenty of food for the Polar Bears and rid the world of a lot of useless fat. :eek:

[anthonyvop]

Capital of the World?

Easy


Wherever I am.

[Easy Drifter]

Well it couldn't be Toronto.
Torontonians think they are the centre of the Universe! :vader: :D

[Jag_Warrior]

Really? There were barbarians at the gates constantly, and finally they broke through.

Uh, dude... it was a joke. :p

And besides, that's not how it went. The Eastern Roman Empire lived on long after Attila was worm's food - a couple of centuries +/-. And even with that, the Western Empire had declined to almost nothing by the time the Huns and others invaded the actual city. Most of the people had already left.

But anyway, I figure the capital of the world will be where ever the Chinese say it's going to be. They just passed Japan for #2 (in terms of economic size) and they're on track to pass the U.S. by about 2020. Coincidentally, 2020 is also the same year that I might declare open season on neocons. I could convert my racing room to a trophy room where I can mount their heads. :dozey:

[anthonyvop]

2020 is also the same year that I might declare open season on neocons. I could convert my racing room to a trophy room where I can mount their heads. :dozey:

Wow.

Now if an Objectivist (like me) was to say that about Liberal Fascists (like you) you would have called me a Nazi.


Still trying to get a real definition of what is a "Neo-Con" anyway. Ever version I see is different.
The best definition I found is that a "Neo-Con" is a person who uses logic to destroy the core beliefs of a Liberal. So they are called "Neo-Cons" as if that was some kind of insult.

A liberal is someone who doesn't have the balls to admit to themselves they are really a Fascist.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Why has my light-hearted discussion about world cities turned into another Liberal v Conservative debate? :bigcry:

[Jag_Warrior]

Wow.

Now if an Objectivist (like me) was to say that about Liberal Fascists (like you) you would have called me a Nazi.


Still trying to get a real definition of what is a "Neo-Con" anyway. Ever version I see is different.
The best definition I found is that a "Neo-Con" is a person who uses logic to destroy the core beliefs of a Liberal. So they are called "Neo-Cons" as if that was some kind of insult.

A liberal is someone who doesn't have the balls to admit to themselves they are really a Fascist.

The difference is that when I say something like that, most (intelligent) people know that I'm joking. You being kind of flakey to begin with, if you said it, it's possible that you might be serious. That's the key difference. :dozey:

As for what a neocon is, I'll give you the definition offered by that famous "liberal" Patrick J. Buchanan: a neocon is someone who shows up at the party late, eats all the food and breaks the dishes. When asked to help clean up, he'll claim that he helped set up the tables, is now tired and has to go home. Basically the term has become a catch-all phrase for traitorous, nation building buttinskis who love to squander American lives and money on foreign issues that really don't concern us.

BTW, I think Pat might join me for the 2020 hunting trip. I believe I'll opt for the Weatherby .300 Mag. Pat is going for a Mossberg 590. He says a shotgun will be better since neocons (being natural born cowards) tend to hide in the bushes most of the time.

[Jag_Warrior]

Why has my light-hearted discussion about world cities turned into another Liberal v Conservative debate? :bigcry:

Sorry. But as some cities rise and others fall, politics will inevitably be at the heart of it all.

But I'm still giving my sentimental vote to Rome. :p :

[Alexamateo]

.............. tend to hide in the bushes most of the time.



Is that "bushes" or "Bushes"? :D

[Rollo]

Logically the capital is the place where most of the key decisions that have impace on our lives takes place.

Ironically the thing that actually affects most of our lives are standards and directives. Even the computer which you are all reading this one is governed by standards for things like power, luminescence, even the volt and the amp.

That credit goes to Strasbourg which is the home of the EU Parliament, and consequently the place where most of the world's standards are adopted first. Otherwise it used to be London, though its preeminence has faded somewhat.

[Jag_Warrior]

Is that "bushes" or "Bushes"? :D


:laugh: Good one!

And hey, here's another reason to go for Rome: look at how many of the capital cities throughout Europe and the Americas have (heavy) Roman influences. Come on kids, how about we show some love for Rome? They haven't had much to cheer about in Rome for the past 1500 years or so.

[Drew]

Logically the capital is the place where most of the key decisions that have impace on our lives takes place.

Ironically the thing that actually affects most of our lives are standards and directives. Even the computer which you are all reading this one is governed by standards for things like power, luminescence, even the volt and the amp.

That credit goes to Strasbourg which is the home of the EU Parliament, and consequently the place where most of the world's standards are adopted first. Otherwise it used to be London, though its preeminence has faded somewhat.

The European Parliament doesn't really have a home. The parliament has its seat in Strasbourg for one week a month to keep the French happy and in Brussels the rest of the time. Brussels is generally considered the capital of the EU although officially there is no capital city.

[bowler]

The rising world capital is Beijing.

Falling is New York, and fallen has London

[anthonyvop]

The rising world capital is Beijing.

Falling is New York, and fallen has London

Back in the 80's they said the same thing but instead of Beijing they said it was Tokyo.

[Eki]

So they are called "Neo-Cons" as if that was some kind of insult.

Yes, we know you're a con artist and proud of it. You never feel ashamed after you've conned people.

[ShiftingGears]

I am so sick of these threads.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The rising world capital is Beijing.

Falling is New York, and fallen has London

London is catching and, according to some, overtaken New York as the financial center of the world.

[Jag_Warrior]

I am so sick of these threads.

Vote Rome and we'll put an end to them. :p

[Tazio]

Vote Rome and we'll put an end to them. :p

Rome. Specifically "Pax Romana". Ok next silly thread!

[Mark in Oshawa]

ROME?? Oh c' mon....past glory and all that...

Still is London. New York with a close second.

Shanghai or Hong Kong for honourable mention....

For wannabe and never will status, Sydney and Toronto.

[Rollo]

For wannabe and never will status, Sydney and Toronto.

Sydney Fashion Week: "We know bugger all about fashion... but... but... but... isn't the harbour pretty?"

Sydney is a joke. The whole city is built for show with very little substance behind it. The only thing that Sydneysiders care about is property prices. Even if you look at the two most famous icons of the place: one cost more than 11 times what it was supposed to and still can't fulfil the function of its name, and the other which does work, was designed and built by Geordies.

[Tazio]

ROME?? Oh c' mon....past glory and all that...

Still is London. New York with a close second.

Shanghai or Hong Kong for honourable mention....

For wannabe and never will status, Sydney and Toronto.


You did note that I said "Specifically Pax Roma"
And it is a vote for "was" ;)
I don't want Jag to think all his historical capitol is for naught :)

[janvanvurpa]

The rising world capital is Beijing.

Falling is New York, and fallen has London

No, Beijing they just talk politics.

Shanghai is the dynamo.

Man, what a place---be there for New Years sometimes. Jeeebuz!!!

[janvanvurpa]

Sydney Fashion Week: "We know bugger all about fashion... but... but... but... isn't the harbour pretty?"

Sydney is a joke. The whole city is built for show with very little substance behind it. The only thing that Sydneysiders care about is property prices. Even if you look at the two most famous icons of the place: one cost more than 11 times what it was supposed to and still can't fulfil the function of its name, and the other which does work, was designed and built by Geordies.


My impression was it was the "L.A." of OZ, superficial glitzy and that's about it.

And I figured one L.A. was more than enough for the world.

[Camelopard]

My impression was it was the "L.A." of OZ, superficial glitzy and that's about it.

And I figured one L.A. was more than enough for the world.


Got to agree on Sydney and we also have up north what we refer to as Brisvegas.......


imo, Shanghai will become the world's leading city and it's in a Communist Country, got to love the irony....................... :p

[Jag_Warrior]

You did note that I said "Specifically Pax Roma"

Caesar Augustus... ah yeah, they don't make 'em like that anymore. ;)

Can you imagine 200+ years of relative peace and a focus on the home front (for a change)?! Gosh, what would we do with ourselves?

Jokes (and nostalgia) aside, I guess the so called "capital of the world" would have to be a major economic, cultural and political center. With the U.N., the NYSE and major fashion, artistic and musical outlets being in New York, I guess it would fit the bill better than most. I dunno... :dozey:



Senatus Populusque Romanus :s mokin:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sydney Fashion Week: "We know bugger all about fashion... but... but... but... isn't the harbour pretty?"

Sydney is a joke. The whole city is built for show with very little substance behind it. The only thing that Sydneysiders care about is property prices. Even if you look at the two most famous icons of the place: one cost more than 11 times what it was supposed to and still can't fulfil the function of its name, and the other which does work, was designed and built by Geordies.

An Aussie told me much the same...lol

Sydney and Toronto are both cities trying to hit above their weight, and are always shocked when the rest of their nation hates them....

You can only be seriously considered to be a World Center or Capital when your nation is proud of your city...and in the case of London and New York, despite griping, are loved cities.

Shanghai? Business wise is it a great city...but how can a "world capital" be one where there is no real freedom of speech, culture or religion?

Sorry...Shanghai is a great Chinese city....but Hong Kong swung more weight before and maybe would still if the Beijing government had left it in British protection...

[Tazio]

Caesar Augustus... ah yeah, they don't make 'em like that anymore. ;)

Can you imagine 200+ years of relative peace and a focus on the home front (for a change)?! Gosh, what would we do with ourselves?

Jokes (and nostalgia) aside, I guess the so called "capital of the world" would have to be a major economic, cultural and political center. With the U.N., the NYSE and major fashion, artistic and musical outlets being in New York, I guess it would fit the bill better than most. I dunno... :dozey:



Senatus Populusque Romanus :s mokin:
OK Now you've got me started! :(
If I had to pick one city as the greatest of all Civilization, it would have to be Alexandria, The Greek Capitol of Egypt. This little snippet brushes briefly on its contribution to knowledge. You really have to watch all twelve episodes of Cosmos to hear everything that Carl Sagan has to say about its culture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jixnM7S9tLw&NR=1

[janvanvurpa]

An Aussie told me much the same...lol

Sydney and Toronto are both cities trying to hit above their weight, and are always shocked when the rest of their nation hates them....

You can only be seriously considered to be a World Center or Capital when your nation is proud of your city...and in the case of London and New York, despite griping, are loved cities.

Shanghai? Business wise is it a great city...but how can a "world capital" be one where there is no real freedom of speech, culture or religion?

Sorry...Shanghai is a great Chinese city....but Hong Kong swung more weight before and maybe would still if the Beijing government had left it in British protection...

Mark, go there. don't tell me about a place you've never been.
I have been now 5 time sto China, every time via Hong Kong as my family lives just 35 minutes from the new airport on Lantau Island and less than 5 minutes across the line into China... it is an area I know well.

Shanghai is 5 times the city Hong Kong is and was. Hong Kong has a fantastic harbor, truly amazing ---and I have always lived nearly on the shoreline, and always been around ports and harbors---but the only manufacturing in Hong Kong was light manufacturing. Hong Kong was about PLACE and trading.

Shanghai is a manufacturing area from light to heaviest, and trading, and finance and agriculture. And EVERYTHING. It dominates the whole area for more than 300km all around, things are geared to what's going on in Shanghai.

Been there and it is a humming dynamo and everybody is so busy making stuff an making money and careers and BUILDING!!!! that THEY say "What do those Westerners think we're doing here? Why do they think we're worried about religion, or politics, we're too busy working!!!"

Don't forget as well that after the victory of the CCP over the corrupt KMT in '49, Hong Kong was infused with the offices of many foriegn corportaion which had formerly been established in Shanghai

[janvanvurpa]

Caesar Augustus... ah yeah, they don't make 'em like that anymore. ;)

Can you imagine 200+ years of relative peace and a focus on the home front (for a change)?! Gosh, what would we do with ourselves?

Jokes (and nostalgia) aside, I guess the so called "capital of the world" would have to be a major economic, cultural and political center. With the U.N., the NYSE and major fashion, artistic and musical outlets being in New York, I guess it would fit the bill better than most. I dunno... :dozey:



Senatus Populusque Romanus :s mokin:

Well Western Europe now has seen no major, serious war since May 1945.
That's probably because they finally figured out after 2 of the most fierce and costly wars in human history fought on their soil that no PERSON benefits from war, just big nasty war industries---and their owners.
65 years is a pretty good start.

[Eki]

Well Western Europe now has seen no major, serious war since May 1945.
That's probably because they finally figured out after 2 of the most fierce and costly wars in human history fought on their soil that no PERSON benefits from war, just big nasty war industries---and their owners.
65 years is a pretty good start.
The Swedes figured that out already in 1809. They haven't been in a war since then. Before that, they had wars every century, usually more than one.

[janvanvurpa]

The Swedes figured that out already in 1809. They haven't been in a war since then. Before that, they had wars every century, usually more than one.


Yep and not only did they bleed themselves white, and their loyal subjects just to the east who gained practically nothing, they also bankrupted the place...

65 years is a pretty good start isn't it...
Must be doing something right, maybe those who feel that they need to invade someplace half way around the world and destroy whole countries infastructure and kill hundreds of thousands--if not millions to "liberate 'em" and "bring 'um democracy (wether they want it not) might try looking at how that historic fact was achieved...
When was the last time in Western civilisation that there was 65 years of peace and stability--mostly?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, go there. don't tell me about a place you've never been.
I have been now 5 time sto China, every time via Hong Kong as my family lives just 35 minutes from the new airport on Lantau Island and less than 5 minutes across the line into China... it is an area I know well.

Shanghai is 5 times the city Hong Kong is and was. Hong Kong has a fantastic harbor, truly amazing ---and I have always lived nearly on the shoreline, and always been around ports and harbors---but the only manufacturing in Hong Kong was light manufacturing. Hong Kong was about PLACE and trading.

Shanghai is a manufacturing area from light to heaviest, and trading, and finance and agriculture. And EVERYTHING. It dominates the whole area for more than 300km all around, things are geared to what's going on in Shanghai.

Been there and it is a humming dynamo and everybody is so busy making stuff an making money and careers and BUILDING!!!! that THEY say "What do those Westerners think we're doing here? Why do they think we're worried about religion, or politics, we're too busy working!!!"

Don't forget as well that after the victory of the CCP over the corrupt KMT in '49, Hong Kong was infused with the offices of many foriegn corportaion which had formerly been established in Shanghai

I will take your description Jan. I was talking to a friend of mine who just came back from both, and he said Shanghai is the place, but he did point out as the proud son of someone who lived in Hong Kong, 20 years ago it was not even close.....

What the regime in Beiijing lacks in democratic finesse and free speech rights, they certainly are free boot capitalists in business and manufacturing....and Shanghai is their best work.

Shanghai probably should have been this dynamo all along if China didn't decend into the darkness for all those years

[Mark in Oshawa]

I dunno Jan, I would hardly Say All of the Western World has been living in a high state of war. Maybe not the peace of the Swede's but being neutral is a luxury your nation wouldn't be allowed.....

They tried that sort of once....

Canada for the most part has stayed out of 99% of the stupidity out there....

[Camelopard]

......Mark, go there. don't tell me about a place you've never been.........


Could not have said it better myself. :)

[AJP]

But in terms of population Tokyo is by far the biggest with almost 40million in its metropolitan area! :eek:

Don't mean to picky Jon, but Tokyo has a population of 13 Million...
Still a massive amount, but not quite 40 million.

[MrJan]

Plymouth. The pilgrims set sail from Plymouth to America. America = the world, thus Plymouth should be capital of the world.

Although i'm going to guess the capital of the world will be Shanghai / Beijing.

You're just jealous that you're not even the County town :p :

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Don't mean to picky Jon, but Tokyo has a population of 13 Million...
Still a massive amount, but not quite 40 million.

Tokyo city has a population of around 13 million but the metropolitan area of Greater Tokyo has a population closer to 40 million.

In comparision London has a population of 7 million and Greater London has a population of around 12 million.

[janvanvurpa]

I will take your description Jan. I was talking to a friend of mine who just came back from both, and he said Shanghai is the place, but he did point out as the proud son of someone who lived in Hong Kong, 20 years ago it was not even close.....

What the regime in Beiijing lacks in democratic finesse and free speech rights, they certainly are free boot capitalists in business and manufacturing....and Shanghai is their best work.

Shanghai probably should have been this dynamo all along if China didn't decend into the darkness for all those years

Whay the fawk is "the regime, the regime, the regime"?
Why can't you give credit to a huge degree where credit is due: to PEOPLE who have a vision or a dream or a goddam compulsion to get something done and they just do what is necessary to get it done.

Beijing is a long way away is not just a geographic observation. And back 'in the day" I heard that from Russians about their system, even those from Leningrad...."Moscow is a long way way..."

I believe you have some vision of the Chinese "in those years of darkness" being some sort of head bowed down subservient, obedient automatons...

And your idea of descend into darkness all those years---from YOUR ideaology---well if you mean the years since 1911, the Founding of the Republic to the end of the Liberation--and the inevitable working out of a sytem that would work, then OK. Or the darkness of the whole Qing dynasty from the mid 1600s onwards I'll agree..descent into darkness..

But I don't think that you're too sharp on any critical details of Chinese internal politics so I'll presume you're alluding to---you can only allude since I'm sure you've never sat down and spent 60-150 hours studying the detail internal history of the place---the period from '49 to maybe 30 years ago. as the time of descent into darkness...

And I'll presume that---after all that is the completely convention and superficial Western description in the mass media..

But I'll suggest that to those who lived thru that there, he was looked at as the birth-struggles of the modern Nation---working with a ravaed and war torn and neglected country---the neglect linked right to the aforementioned Qing/Manchu dynasty..

And I'll remind you that THIS country where I'm living had a pretty long "birth struggle" which by any reasonably broad perspective lasted from 1781-1865 if you're narrow, and to the end of the 1960s if you're broader see-ing. in terms of settlement of issues and general agreement of what the COUNTRY was supposed to be like and what it was to mean.
That's a long time and WE started from a much better ground in terms of resources, but above all in terms of IDEOLOGY.

So don't be all simplistic, things are way more and way less different than you think about China..

[AJP]

Tokyo city has a population of around 13 million but the metropolitan area of Greater Tokyo has a population closer to 40 million.

In comparision London has a population of 7 million and Greater London has a population of around 12 million.

Ahhhh .... I see

thanks.

[Drew]

You're just jealous that you're not even the County town :p :

Well, somehow you've decided to proclaim yourselves the regional capital, so Plymouth has to go a few better :p :

[MrJan]

Well, somehow you've decided to proclaim yourselves the regional capital, so Plymouth has to go a few better :p :

When YOU have a Cathedral then you can try and be regional capital :p :

[Drew]

When YOU have a Cathedral then you can try and be regional capital :p :

We have a cathedral, but unlike Exeter it's not the ONLY thing to see in the city. Plus everybody knows Bristol is the true regional capital anyways :p :

[Rollo]

When YOU have a Cathedral then you can try and be regional capital :p :

Liverpool has a "spare" cathedral. Perhaps the team from Monster Moves should shift it :D

[Mark in Oshawa]

Whay the fawk is "the regime, the regime, the regime"?
Why can't you give credit to a huge degree where credit is due: to PEOPLE who have a vision or a dream or a goddam compulsion to get something done and they just do what is necessary to get it done.

Beijing is a long way away is not just a geographic observation. And back 'in the day" I heard that from Russians about their system, even those from Leningrad...."Moscow is a long way way..."

I believe you have some vision of the Chinese "in those years of darkness" being some sort of head bowed down subservient, obedient automatons...

And your idea of descend into darkness all those years---from YOUR ideaology---well if you mean the years since 1911, the Founding of the Republic to the end of the Liberation--and the inevitable working out of a sytem that would work, then OK. Or the darkness of the whole Qing dynasty from the mid 1600s onwards I'll agree..descent into darkness..

But I don't think that you're too sharp on any critical details of Chinese internal politics so I'll presume you're alluding to---you can only allude since I'm sure you've never sat down and spent 60-150 hours studying the detail internal history of the place---the period from '49 to maybe 30 years ago. as the time of descent into darkness...

And I'll presume that---after all that is the completely convention and superficial Western description in the mass media..

But I'll suggest that to those who lived thru that there, he was looked at as the birth-struggles of the modern Nation---working with a ravaed and war torn and neglected country---the neglect linked right to the aforementioned Qing/Manchu dynasty..

And I'll remind you that THIS country where I'm living had a pretty long "birth struggle" which by any reasonably broad perspective lasted from 1781-1865 if you're narrow, and to the end of the 1960s if you're broader see-ing. in terms of settlement of issues and general agreement of what the COUNTRY was supposed to be like and what it was to mean.
That's a long time and WE started from a much better ground in terms of resources, but above all in terms of IDEOLOGY.

So don't be all simplistic, things are way more and way less different than you think about China..


Economically, China has done great things. Spiritually and politically, they are restrained and treated by standards you wouldn't stand for, so don't lecture me on the evils of China. It isn't western propaganda that executes people within days of a conviction, and bills the family of the accused for the bullet. It isn't made up the persecution of Falun Gong (a spiritual sect with ideals that the Chinese gov't see's as evil). Last I looked, dissident religious and political sects didn't get persecuted with jail terms and executions in the USA or any other civilized nation.

The people of China are a great and industrious people and are proving it. Shanghai and Hong Kong are living proof of that, but don't be telling me about how I don't understand the Chinese now. I understand the Chinese now economically successful, but in a human rights level are not living in anything close to a free country. Read Amnesty International's reports on China. Imagine how much greater a nation they would be if not run by people who treat human life as something to be measured and controlled....

[airshifter]

It was Hitler who wanted a world capitol. I would think that for most countries with large, powerful cities, they would be under the assumption that it may come and go. ;)

[Eki]

It isn't made up the persecution of Falun Gong (a spiritual sect with ideals that the Chinese gov't see's as evil). Last I looked, dissident religious and political sects didn't get persecuted with jail terms and executions in the USA or any other civilized nation.


What about Helter Skelter or Branch Davidian?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helter_Skelter_(Manson_scenario)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidian

[Mark in Oshawa]

What about Helter Skelter or Branch Davidian?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helter_Skelter_(Manson_scenario)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidian

Not the same. Manson was jailed because he led a group of people committed to killing people. IN short, a loon, not a religious or spiritual figure. Ditto for Koresh and his cult of loons armed to the teeth. That tragedy however I place at Janet Reno...whose ineptness led to that whole mess.

Falun Gong is considered a subversive terrorist organization by the Chinese gov't. The fact they medidate in parks and have no time for authotarian rule just makes them normal in my books...but then I am not trying to control the personal life of everyone in my nation either.
C'mon Eki, you can do better than that.....

[Eki]

Not the same. Manson was jailed because he led a group of people committed to killing people. IN short, a loon, not a religious or spiritual figure. Ditto for Koresh and his cult of loons armed to the teeth. That tragedy however I place at Janet Reno...whose ineptness led to that whole mess.

Falun Gong is considered a subversive terrorist organization by the Chinese gov't. The fact they medidate in parks and have no time for authotarian rule just makes them normal in my books...but then I am not trying to control the personal life of everyone in my nation either.
C'mon Eki, you can do better than that.....
Not the same to you. They are/were all cults. Evil is just in the eye of the beholder. The Chinese gov't sees Falun Gong as evil, you see Helter Skelter and the Branch Davidian as evil.

[anthonyvop]

Not the same to you. They are/were all cults. Evil is just in the eye of the beholder. The Chinese gov't sees Falun Gong as evil, you see Helter Skelter and the Branch Davidian as evil.


We all know you are an Jealous, Anti-American,Anti-Semitic, Fascists now you are a supporter of Charles Manson?

You do realize that Manson was convicted of MURDER and he was at the LaBianca home and in fact tied them up to have the others slaughter them?
But why am I not surprised? Manson was a racist also.

[BDunnell]

Not the same. Manson was jailed because he led a group of people committed to killing people. IN short, a loon, not a religious or spiritual figure.

Quite right, but...


Ditto for Koresh and his cult of loons armed to the teeth. That tragedy however I place at Janet Reno...whose ineptness led to that whole mess.

So, suddenly personal responsibility for one's own actions goes out of the window in those circumstances, does it?

[airshifter]

Quite right, but...



So, suddenly personal responsibility for one's own actions goes out of the window in those circumstances, does it?

I can't speak for Marks view on this, but I suspect he is talking about how the situation was handled. Manson and his crew had already broken a number of laws and taken lives. Koresh had broken laws, but the loss of life issue was somewhat forced by a heavy handed approach. With the various cops, National Guard, etc involved they could have simply waited until they ran low on food, and let them surrender.

Had it been Koresh alone I wouldn't have cared if they just shelled the place with mortars, but their were people not known to be directly involved in the illegal actions within the compound, including women and children.

[Camelopard]

We all know you are an Jealous, Anti-American,Anti-Semitic, Fascists now you are a supporter of Charles Manson?

You do realize that Manson was convicted of MURDER and he was at the LaBianca home and in fact tied them up to have the others slaughter them?
But why am I not surprised? Manson was a racist also.

So what does that make you vopie?

As some-one who has openly admitted on this forum that you hold a convicted murderer and terrorist in high regard and are quite happy to meet and socialise with said murderer and terrorist, ho hummmmm.............


uspkEV_fFzs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uspkEV_fFzs)

[Camelopard]

We all know you are an Jealous, Anti-American,Anti-Semitic, Fascists now you are a supporter of Charles Manson?

You do realize that Manson was convicted of MURDER and he was at the LaBianca home and in fact tied them up to have the others slaughter them?
But why am I not surprised? Manson was a racist also.



So what does that make you vopie?

As some-one who has openly admitted on this forum that you hold a convicted murderer and terrorist in high regard and that you are quite happy to meet and socialise with said murderer and terrorist, I'd say that makes you a hypocrite. ho hummmmm.............


uspkEV_fFzs

[anthonyvop]

So what does that make you vopie?

As some-one who has openly admitted on this forum that you hold a convicted murderer and terrorist in high regard and that you are quite happy to meet and socialise with said murderer and terrorist, I'd say that makes you a hypocrite. ho hummmmm.............


He was accused of terrorism and twice acquitted in a court of law.

I have this thing about a person being innocent until proven guilty.

Nobody thinks Manson is innocent.

[Eki]

I have this thing about a person being innocent until proven guilty.

How about that Libyan accused of the Lockerbie bombings. He was never proven guilty. Neither was Saddam Hussein never proven guilty for having WMDs or supporting terrorism. Do you think Saddam was innocent?

[janvanvurpa]

Of course this is not direct to or intended as dialog with the slime-ball liar known as "Vop", there is no point in dialog with such people who lie so readily and constantly, and who are just blowhards, but others may find some insight from just a snippet from an FBI field report:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Cubana_flight_455_document.jpg


OR this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Cubana_flight_455_document2.JPG


Or this showing how worthless anything written by Vop is....makes you pretty certain his habit of lying is congenital...



Panama: Arrest, conviction and release (2000 - 2004)
Fidel Castro, the target of a failed assassination attempt in 2000

On November 17, 2000, Posada was discovered with 200 pounds of explosives in Panama City and arrested for plotting the assassination of Fidel Castro, who was visiting the country for the first time since 1959. Three other Cuban exiles were also arrested alongside Posada: Gaspar Jiménez who worked at the Cuban American National Foundation in Miami, Pedro Remón Rodríguez and Carlos Muñiz Varela.[21]

Castro himself announced the discovery of the plot on international television, describing Posada as "a cowardly man totally without scruples". Castro also blamed the CANF for orchestrating the plot. Shortly after, Justino di Celmo, the father of an Italian killed by a bomb in Havana, appeared on Cuban television to urge the Panamanian authorities to extradite Posada to Cuba. Posada was subsequently convicted and jailed in Panama for the assassination attempt.[21]

In August 2004, Posada and the three other convicted plotters were pardoned by outgoing Panamanian president Mireya Moscoso. Moscoso, who had been close to the Bush administration in the U.S., denied that she had been pressured by U.S. officials to engineer a release of the men, though the U.S. government declined to condemn the actions of the plotters.[40] Moscoso's decision was heavily criticized by incoming president Martin Torrijos,[41] and speculation was rife that the pardon was politically motivated.[40] Cuba expert Julia E. Sweig said the decision "reeks of political and diplomatic cronyism". Sweig cited business and personal connections between Panama and the Cuban American exile community in Florida, and implied that Florida governor Jeb Bush may have had a role in the release.[40][42] Immediately after news of the pardon broke, Venezuela and Cuba withdrew diplomatic ties with Panama.[41]

In June 2008 Panama's supreme court declared the pardon to be null and void. The officials who procured the release on August 26 before the pardon was made public were subsequently charged with abuse of authority.[43]

The scum-swine POS is a convicted terrorist..

And so, as usual we see the utterly disgusting associate known as Vop is once again twisting the truth, half lying and flat lying...

I wonder if there is a more repellent person on this forum than this liar and friend of a mass murderer?

[Camelopard]

He was accused of terrorism and twice acquitted in a court of law.

.........................

Come on vopie you have said this before and not provided your proof, want to try again?

[Mark in Oshawa]

aah...the VOP character assassination squad is back....nice to see some things don't change.

have at it boys...I don't have a dog on either side in this one...

[Camelopard]

aah...the VOP character assassination squad is back...........



That's an oxymoron, vopie doesn't have a 'character' to assassinate...... :)