Am i wrong or is save fuel code for no racing your team mate (McLaren)

[CNR]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/7911480/McLaren-chief-insist-he-would-rather-forfeit-the-championship-than-use-team-orders.html


McLaren chief insist he would rather forfeit the championship than use team orders

[Retro Formula 1]

We know that the cars dont have enough fuel on full throttle to finish the race. We also know that all teams use coded team orders which are allowed to slip under the radar.

[wedge]

Of course it is.

And it's not just McLaren.

Christian Horner is a hypocritical 2@

Race engineer Ciaran Pilbeam was asked to tell his driver Webber to save fuel in Turkey when Vettel turned the wick up

[markabilly]

Of course it is.

And it's not just McLaren.

Christian Horner is a hypocritical 2@

Race engineer Ciaran Pilbeam was asked to tell his driver Webber to save fuel in Turkey when Vettel turned the wick up
yes, and that is why all the teams are being such hypocrites, and Martin is telling ferrari to STFU....fear that by the time Luca sets it all off.....well, things--rules-- may get all far worse

[nigelred5]

Its a stupid rule and always has been because no matter how it has been worded, teams have and always will issue team orders in order to win the championship. It clearly hasn't stopped team ordersm

What they need to do is split the teams during the race so they all run independent of each other. No shared pit crews, no shared equipment, no shared pit boxes. Without refuelling there is no logical justification for still having 15-18 people servicing one car from the same pit box. Let, no, force everyone run independent strategies and beat each other fair and square head to head. Mandate a starting fuel weight that is clearly more than enough to prevent fuel conservation.

[Bagwan]

Its a stupid rule and always has been because no matter how it has been worded, teams have and always will issue team orders in order to win the championship. It clearly hasn't stopped team ordersm

What they need to do is split the teams during the race so they all run independent of each other. No shared pit crews, no shared equipment, no shared pit boxes. Without refuelling there is no logical justification for still having 15-18 people servicing one car from the same pit box. Let, no, force everyone run independent strategies and beat each other fair and square head to head. Mandate a starting fuel weight that is clearly more than enough to prevent fuel conservation.

Seems a bit elaborate there , red5 .

Allow team orders .

Teams will still risk the same flack from the fans , but there wouldn't the farsical fan opinion-based "too obvious" penalty system .

[Easy Drifter]

The last thing F1 needs is more rules or gimmicks.
We all know, or should, that in F1 or any other racing involving teams (excluding taxi cabs and most US racing) there have always been team orders.
The only reason we got the ban was because Ferrari were so blatant about it and it upset the casual fan so a dumb rule was put in place.
The smart thing to do would be to dump the rule, but with all the radio communications now public the casual fan would get upset again.
So I guess we will have to live with coded messages.
If Ferrari had not had Massa's engineer send the message or used the fuel save or brake code we would have been suspicious but that is all.

[Valve Bounce]

BRING BACK REFUELLING please!

[Mark]

There is a bit difference in telling team mates not to race each other compared with having them swap places.

[wmcot]

There is a bit difference in telling team mates not to race each other compared with having them swap places.

Not really. Aren't you ordering them NOT to swap places? Same thing, different #1 driver in front...

[Tazio]

Not really. Aren't you ordering them NOT to swap places? Same thing, different #1 driver in front...

:s ailor: "plus one"

[wmcot]

Isn't the REAL "save fuel" code something like, "switch to mixture setting 6," or some such technical talk instructing the driver to change his fuel mixture switch on the steering wheel?

[Big Ben]

I've never imagined this Horner boy is such a hypocrite. After this last race I would have hidden in the bushes so I wouldn't have to answer those questions about team orders... And Withmarsh... I'm disappointed. He's behavior is rather pathetic. He's talking for half an hour about how he's not going to talk with the press about this situation. And why should Ferrari discuss its internal affairs with Withmarsh? He should be told to mind his damn business.

[Big Ben]

How many times did FIA got involved in an internal team situation to make sure both driver are given fair treatment? And which one is that team?

[Big Ben]

Well I can think of one reason and that is.................. Because he's the FOTA chairman, and things which affect how the teams are percieved are a key element as to why the group was set up? I could well be wrong.

Plus Whitmarsh has not publically criticized Ferrari and stated that his discussions will be held in private. Lets put the guns away before we know more eh?

I've read what he said. He said enough to make everyone understand what he thinks without saying it.

[Dave B]

Lets put the guns away before we know more eh?
Far more fun to take a headline completely out of context, come up with a load of conjecture and then get angry without a full grasp of the facts, don't you think old chap? :p

[SGWilko]

Isn't the REAL "save fuel" code something like, "switch to mixture setting 6," or some such technical talk instructing the driver to change his fuel mixture switch on the steering wheel?

Depends. Using mixture settings to save fuel can have adverse effects on cooling etc as the engines run hotter. Your safest bet is to ask the driver to short shift and lift and coast (save fuel) and see if that saves the required amount per lap, if not, then a mixture setting (G8) etc can be employed.

[SGWilko]

Far more fun to take a headline completely out of context, come up with a load of conjecture and then get angry without a full grasp of the facts, don't you think old chap? :p

Senna's McLaren found on Mars.

[Somebody]

@SGWilko - yup.

Remember the message we heard Petrov (who most certainly wan't running line-astern with his teammate) get, telling him to short shift to save fuel or the team would cut his revs?

[woody2goody]

Surely even with the extra tenth per lap of carrying that extra one or two laps of fuel from the start, it would be better for the drivers to be able to push for the whole race and not have to pi** about losing time during the Grand Prix by saving fuel. It doesn't make much sense to me.

[AndyL]

I guess the thinking is that if you haven't managed to pass your rivals either off the start or by the time the pit strategy has worked out, you're probably not going too. Races often get processional towards the end. On that basis it makes sense to trade speed late in the race for speed early.

[wedge]

Weight is too costly.

The backmarkers put even less fuel in their tanks knowing they'll be lapped.

[Sleeper]

Surely even with the extra tenth per lap of carrying that extra one or two laps of fuel from the start, it would be better for the drivers to be able to push for the whole race and not have to pi** about losing time during the Grand Prix by saving fuel. It doesn't make much sense to me.
It does when you realise that more weight hurts the tyres.

[wmcot]

Depends. Using mixture settings to save fuel can have adverse effects on cooling etc as the engines run hotter. Your safest bet is to ask the driver to short shift and lift and coast (save fuel) and see if that saves the required amount per lap, if not, then a mixture setting (G8) etc can be employed.

Thanks for clarifying the terminology. I didn't have time to re-watch several races for an example. However, as you point out, asking the driver to "short shift" or "lift and coast" or "change mixture settings" is the real way to instruct them to save fuel. The verbal "save fuel" order really means "slow down and let your teammate catch up and/or overtake."

[V12]

Was this common practice in the early 90s before refuelling was introduced? Of course I remember cars being marginal on occasion, Senna seemed to run out of fuel at the British GP every year :D but there never seemed to be a big deal about saving fuel (aside from the turbo, fuel limit era, which I was a bit young to catch first-hand). Then again we didn't have the access to the radios that we have now so maybe that explains it.

[snow_zone]

http://www.madeinmotorsport.com/en/headlines/news-f1-lowe-cool-on-minimum-fuel-weight-in-formula-one-8933.html

A minimum weight makes sense to me....

[markabilly]

@SGWilko - yup.

Remember the message we heard Petrov (who most certainly wan't running line-astern with his teammate) get, telling him to short shift to save fuel or the team would cut his revs?
I heard that, so I thought must have heard it wrong, as I recall, I thought engine managment from the pits had been banned????


???maybe renault...

or maybe they fgiured Petrov would not know any better

[markabilly]

Depends. Using mixture settings to save fuel can have adverse effects on cooling etc as the engines run hotter. Your safest bet is to ask the driver to short shift and lift and coast (save fuel) and see if that saves the required amount per lap, if not, then a mixture setting (G8) etc can be employed.
sure, you are right, especially when the race is not even close to half over, and the team has managed to leapfrog Ham past Butt, and Butt appears to be driving hard to make up the small gap, and do his own leapfrog, undoing what the team just did with the pitstop :dozey:

[markabilly]

Well I can think of one reason and that is.................. Because he's the FOTA chairman, and things which affect how the teams are percieved are a key element as to why the group was set up? I could well be wrong.

Plus Whitmarsh has not publically criticized Ferrari and stated that his discussions will be held in private. Lets put the guns away before we know more eh?
Yep, he wanted to get Luca to shut up before luca ruined the "code" game for the rest of them, but Luca was too smart and quick for that

Yes sir, unlike Whitemarsh, Luca is proud to be known publicly as a liar and a cheater, who has no remorse :up:

[SGWilko]

Thanks for clarifying the terminology. I didn't have time to re-watch several races for an example. However, as you point out, asking the driver to "short shift" or "lift and coast" or "change mixture settings" is the real way to instruct them to save fuel. The verbal "save fuel" order really means "slow down and let your teammate catch up and/or overtake."

Or, simply 'save fuel' could just mean save fuel. Not everything F1 needs a conspiracy theorist spending hours of their time working out what it could or could not mean.

[SGWilko]

I heard that, so I thought must have heard it wrong, as I recall, I thought engine managment from the pits had been banned????


???maybe renault...

or maybe they fgiured Petrov would not know any better

You actually think they can turn the revs down from pit wall do you???

What they were saying is that they will tell him to turn the revs down.

[SGWilko]

sure, you are right, especially when the race is not even close to half over, and the team has managed to leapfrog Ham past Butt, and Butt appears to be driving hard to make up the small gap, and do his own leapfrog, undoing what the team just did with the pitstop :dozey:

You realise all teams start the race without sufficient fuel to finish if they go flat out all the way, don't you. Shock horror, it all becomes clear why teams sometimes ask their pilots to save fuel.

Of course, save fuel means everything but save fuel if you believe some folk.

Perhaps it means sing a Take that number, or flare your nostrils, or fart your national anthem without leaving skids.......

[markabilly]

Perhaps it means sing a Take that number, or flare your nostrils, or fart your national anthem without leaving skids.......
is "Sing a Take that number, or flare your nostrils, or fart your national anthem without leaving skids......." to be new code words for team orders????

You are talented, for sure.

...lets see:

take a number means move over

flare means go faster and overtake your teamie

fart your anthem means no overtaking your teamie

[SGWilko]

is "Sing a Take that number, or flare your nostrils, or fart your national anthem without leaving skids......." to be new code words for team orders????

You are talented, for sure.

...lets see:

take a number means move over

flare means go faster and overtake your teamie

fart your anthem means no overtaking your teamie

But what if you leave skids - is that legal? Will the wash lady kill you?

[wedge]

That may well be the case as far as holding position not to risk both drivers exiting the race. Overtaking is something which can't be confirmed yet as this season we haven't seen a case of it. Mclaren mixed up their communication in Turkey and we had teammates dicng on little fuel. Jenson attempted to take the lead and lost it 2 corners later and the team advised them to hold position as fuel was critical and a definate one, two was not worth the risk.

Why was Hamilton concerned whether Button was saving fuel, turned his back to the camera before the podium ceremony and the gloomy face on podium & press conference?

[Somebody]

Thanks for clarifying the terminology. I didn't have time to re-watch several races for an example. However, as you point out, asking the driver to "short shift" or "lift and coast" or "change mixture settings" is the real way to instruct them to save fuel. The verbal "save fuel" order really means "slow down and let your teammate catch up and/or overtake."

No, because most of the drivers will short-shift/etc as a first resort if you tell them to "save fuel", and only if/when that becomes insufficient will they need to resort to giving technical instructions like "mixture setting G8" or to cut the rev limit.

Given the impatient-verging-on-angry sound of the Renault engineer, Petrov obviously hadn't been listening when he got the plain "save fuel", and this was a final warning - "do it through your driving, or else your engine will have to be turned down to make it to the end."

[Bagwan]

Because Hamilton was leading the race with 8 laps to go and he was being asked to save fuel and given a delta time. He was told that Button had been given the same instruction yet Button was gaining on him in each sector. Obviously with a victory so close its naturally concerning for a driver to see his teammate pressuring when they have both been told to hold position. As soon as the two had duelled for the lead, Whitmarsh was seen giving firm instructions to both drivers that fuel was critical and under no circumstances were they to continue challenging each other and risk either an accident of running out of fuel. It was a necessary team order if you will. :)

A "necessary team order" , is what Ferrari used .
Don't , for a moment , think that the reds didn't know there would be flack for switching the positions , especially when the press was all over Felipe's comeback .
I believe it would be folly to think they were that naive .

In fact , I believe the order was in long before the call came in .
The word " ridiculous" uttered by Fernando , says to me that when Felipe closed the door on his first attempt , he was already under orders to yield to the faster guy with 30 points more than him .

I believe that was the moment that Felipe defied his team .
The message should not have been necessary at all .


But , had it been delivered as it was supposed to be delivered , in the very same words , but significantly different tone , it's likely that it would have been deemed OK .
If "Good boy" and "sorry" weren't added , there would have been doubt , which is simply all that is required to comply with the rules .





I think it should be noted here , that Ferrari have not so far thrown either the driver or the engineer responsible under the bus .
Even though the two , especially the engineer , cost them money , and much hassle , they have stuck as a team , and ridden the storm .

[the bro]

I think it is pretty clear that the FIA will tolerate team orders as long as you make it look good. Ferrari was too blatant about it and the FIA had to crack down.
Kind of like in baseball. The catcher can argue with the umpire as long as he doesn't turn around. As soon as the catcher argues with him face to face, he gets kicked out of the game, for showing up the umpire.

At least put some effort in to making it look good.

[wmcot]

Petrov obviously hadn't been listening when he got the plain "save fuel", and this was a final warning - "do it through your driving, or else your engine will have to be turned down to make it to the end."

I wonder if Ferrari had said that to Massa what the repercussions would be? Could you imagine Red Bull saying that to Webber at Turkey or McLaren saying it to Button or Hamilton?

[Roamy]

No the code is hey go 18,000 rpms instead of 20,000 rpms you have a oil leak

Villeneuve/Hill 1996 Australia

[SGWilko]

No the code is hey go 18,000 rpms instead of 20,000 rpms you have a oil leak

Villeneuve/Hill 1996 Australia

Yes, and they even used a spare oil tank to blow smoke rings out the back of JV's car for effect. That was forward thinking.... :rolleyes:

[Dave B]

If any team issues a warning about saving fuel, looking after brakes or whatever else may be "code", this would presumably be backed up by telemetry which could be provided to the stewards. Maybe such orders should be invesigated on a more regular basis; maybe the FIA feel they don't need to because they believe such orders are actually genuine.