Ferrari: The most disgracefull team Ever in History of F1

[race_director]

After supporting Ferrari F1 for last 15 years. after today, the way Massa who was leading the race for 50 laps and deserved the win, was asked to pull over for over hyped and over overtrated cheat Alonso jst for championship. Ferrari jst lost my vote and i feel they are disgrace to the whole sport as a whole after last race and this race.

Ferrari U Suck

[gloomyDAY]

I guess Martin Whitmarsh has a point (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85485).

[UltimateDanGTR]

Be fair, most disgraceful team in F1 history? Andrea Moda.

other than that, I don't blame you.

[Robinho]

after all their bleating about other teams in recent years and Alonso's radio whinging and talk of manipulated races this really is the cherry on top.

They are no better than anyone else and worse than most. Flav would fit right in.

[race_director]

TOday was the lowest they could get. I feel very low. Would rather support Brawn from now .

[Koz]

Pathetic.

[christophulus]

If Massa had won today I'd be cheering, and I've disliked Ferrari for a while. The fans wanted a Massa win and Ferrari stole it. Stupid move.

[donKey jote]

Today ranks at most #2 in Ferrari´s pathetic hall of fame.
#1 will always be Austria, and that was less than 15 years ago

[Dave B]

Today ranks at most #2 in Ferrari´s pathetic hall of fame.
#1 will always be Austria, and that was less than 15 years ago
Austria 2002 was shameful, for sure, but it wasn't against the rules back then. Today was worse becuase not only was it blatant, it was illegal.

[N. Jones]

After supporting Ferrari F1 for last 15 years. after today, the way Massa who was leading the race for 50 laps and deserved the win, was asked to pull over for over hyped and over overtrated cheat Alonso jst for championship. Ferrari jst lost my vote and i feel they are disgrace to the whole sport as a whole after last race and this race.

Ferrari U Suck

The most disgraceful team ever? I have to disagree. Ferrari get away with what they do because they bring the most money into the sport (outside of what the race track owners pay and maybe the TV rights).

They remind me so much of Michael Jordan - he got away with so much during his career because he was the #1 money maker for the NBA. Nothing is different here; money talks, so Ferrari get away with the things they do.

[ioan]

Today ranks at most #2 in Ferrari´s pathetic hall of fame.
#1 will always be Austria, and that was less than 15 years ago

No way Jose, no way.
Today they did it on the stage while everyone could hear it and see it unfold and then they take the fans for idiots.
+
Back in 2002 was legal and now it isn't.

I agree with the thread starter, Ferrari is now the most disgraceful team in F1.
Screw Ferrari and Alonso and let's hope that their next championship happens in 21 years time only.

[rohanweb]

alonso proved once again that he is a ladyboy whom cannot beat a team mate on equal rights and im not surprised the way ferrari team cheat to decide the outcome of a race because they have been doing this for a long timeyet still allowed to go on in F1..im a mclaren fan but was cheering for felipe to get it in the bag ,what i saw is an extreme level unsportsmanship and the ability treat the audience as dumb is an utter shame that this popular name is being trashed as worse cheats in motorsport.

[rohanweb]

No way Jose, no way.
Today they did it on the stage while everyone could hear it and see it unfold and then they take the fans for idiots.
+
Back in 2002 was legal and now it isn't.

I agree with the thread starter, Ferrari is now the most disgraceful team in F1.
Screw Ferrari and Alonso and let's hope that their next championship happens in 21 years time only.

agreed,
how FIA is going to re establishlost credibility of F1 to the fans?
sack ferrari team from F1, i would pay to watch a hispania car going around than watching a ferrari car from now on...sick to my tummy.

[donKey jote]

your opinion ;)

number 1 in my opinion, legal or not, will always be Austria.
The booing fans (where were they today?) seem to think the same :p

ioan changing minds is loable, but your change of heart borders on the clinical :laugh:

[donKey jote]

alonso proved once again that he is a ladyboy whom cannot beat a team mate on equal rights and im not surprised the way ferrari team cheat to decide the outcome of a race because they have been doing this for a long timeyet still allowed to go on in F1..im a mclaren fan but was cheering for felipe to get it in the bag ,what i saw is an extreme level unsportsmanship and the ability treat the audience as dumb is an utter shame that this popular name is being trashed as worse cheats in motorsport.

oh great look who's back :laugh: :laugh:

[christophulus]

For once, I feel kind of sorry for the FIA. If they penalise Ferrari (which they should), the fans are mostly happy but it'll be unprecedented. If they don't do anything, or issue a reprimand, they lose any credibility they may have left.

[ioan]

your opinion ;)

number 1 in my opinion, legal or not, will always be Austria.
The booing fans (where were they today?) seem to think the same :p

ioan changing minds is loable, but your change of heart borders on the clinical :laugh:

There is a limit for everyone when it comes to how much crap we can accept.
Ferrari reached that limit slowly but surely and I stated this back after the Monaco GP this season.

The way things go ahead I will probably give up watching F1 altogether soon.

[ioan]

Lets have race winners who have earnt it, not just because the head of Santander has decided to attend one race to watch his investment. :\

The problem is he is attending almost every race. :\

[HoldenCaulfield]

The saddest thing is a Massa victory would have made EVERYBODY happy, to see the guy come back after his accident a year to the day, fend off Alonso and take a win would have been a good news story for all, Ferrari fan or not.

Coulthard's fond of saying the drivers are nothing without the team, well the teams are nothing without fans, and the last time this happened they turned away in droves. Ah! just when F1 was clawing back some credibility.

[Koz]

I wonder how Massa feels now, after he said that "I spoke to Alonso more in 3 days than Kimi in 3 years."

I bet now he'd rather have the iceman over that whiny girl on any given day.

[donKey jote]

there seems to be more whining going on in the forums today than Alonso did in his lifetime :p

[driveace]

LET todays race be a LESSON to ALL
Never,Never ever put a penny on ANY FORMULA 1 RACE Ever again,we all know now,its a FIX!!!!!

[ioan]

there seems to be more whining going on in the forums today than Alonso did in his lifetime :p

Ho do you know how much he whined in his life?

[donKey jote]

My surname is Botin, I am the God of F1 Racing :laugh:

pardon my English and my non-existent grammar checker... read "has done so far" for "did"

[ioan]

My surname is Botin, I am the God of F1 Racing :laugh:

Can't be I saw him today in the Ferrari garage, you look different and your English is way too good.

[Dzeidzei]

If Massa had won today I'd be cheering, and I've disliked Ferrari for a while. The fans wanted a Massa win and Ferrari stole it. Stupid move.

Felipe must be one happy camper now. Almost exactly one year after his near fatal accident he´s demanded to bend over and be kicked in his ass by the team.

In a way its not even immoral. If you dont have any moral you cannot act against it. A sad day for the sport.

[Shalafi]

Felipe must be one happy camper now. Almost exactly one year after his near fatal accident he´s demanded to bend over and be kicked in his ass by the team.

In a way its not even immoral. If you dont have any moral you cannot act against it. A sad day for the sport.

Todays race showed why Alonso and Santander "chose" Massa for Alonsos teammate and not Kimi. Even without knowing would Massa ever be as good a driver as he was before that crash...

[ioan]

One thing is sure, Kimi is happier where he is and if he saw what happened today, which I doubt, he must congratulate himself for leaving F1 altogether.

[Shalafi]

One thing is sure, Kimi is happier where he is and if he saw what happened today, which I doubt, he must congratulate himself for leaving F1 altogether.

Thats true.

[Mia 01]

No way Jose, no way.
Today they did it on the stage while everyone could hear it and see it unfold and then they take the fans for idiots.
+
Back in 2002 was legal and now it isn't.

I agree with the thread starter, Ferrari is now the most disgraceful team in F1.
Screw Ferrari and Alonso and let's hope that their next championship happens in 21 years time only.

Agreed.

[Bradley]

The saddest thing is a Massa victory would have made EVERYBODY happy, to see the guy come back after his accident a year to the day, fend off Alonso and take a win would have been a good news story for all, Ferrari fan or not.

:up:

[DexDexter]

I wonder how Massa feels now, after he said that "I spoke to Alonso more in 3 days than Kimi in 3 years."

I bet now he'd rather have the iceman over that whiny girl on any given day.

The Iceman would never have whined on the radio, that's for sure. I don't know how everyone here is so surprised. Of course Alonso is the number one driver, it was known from the start. It took so much money to get him the seat and the main sponsor is Spanish so when he has a chance to win, the second driver will move over.

[Mia 01]

Even if Kimi drove for them next year I never moore would cheer for the team only for Kimi. I´m glad he wont.

[import111]

I honestly don't see what the big deal is. When Massa had the 3 second gap in the lead he was fine. Alonso went faster, caught up to him, and rather than have a battle that could result in a crash, like what happened to RedBull earlier, they let the faster car go ahead. Obviously if non-teammates did this it would be stupid, but teammates have to lookout for the team.

[Shalafi]

I honestly don't see what the big deal is. When Massa had the 3 second gap in the lead he was fine. Alonso went faster, caught up to him, and rather than have a battle that could result in a crash, like what happened to RedBull earlier, they let the faster car go ahead. Obviously if non-teammates did this it would be stupid, but teammates have to lookout for the team.

Why Massa had to sacrifise his win when 1-2 was still certain?

[Big Ben]

Why Massa had to sacrifise his win when 1-2 was still certain?

because of the wdc you know.... d´uh!

[Mia 01]

because of the wdc you know.... d´uh!

Ofcourse, but are ferrari ready to pay the prise now?

[rublazar2]

I honestly don't see what the big deal is. When Massa had the 3 second gap in the lead he was fine. Alonso went faster, caught up to him, and rather than have a battle that could result in a crash, like what happened to RedBull earlier, they let the faster car go ahead. Obviously if non-teammates did this it would be stupid, but teammates have to lookout for the team.

It's wrong because Alonso was involved. It would be fair if any of the other drivers/teams would have done it.

[Jag_Warrior]

I wish I could get as wound up about this as some others. But I can't... even though I can't stand Alonso. And since his accident, I've been pulling for Massa to get a win. But this is F1 we're talking about. This is Ferrari we're talking about. And most importantly, this is Alonso we're talking about. If the baby hadn't been given his bottle, we would have to suffer through at least a week of him whining and crying in the press. "Ferrari no love me! Ferrari treat me just like McLaren! Everybody against me! Now look what they made me do; I've soiled my diaper! Stefano, get over here and change me!" Then he'd probably search for a way to blackmail somebody at Ferrari unless they let him finish in front of Massa at the next race.

Nah, better to just go ahead and gift him a win than to have to deal with all of that, IMO.

[Jag_Warrior]

It's wrong because Alonso was involved. It would be fair if any of the other drivers/teams would have done it.

Ummmm, nope. Still wrong!

[Robinho]

It's wrong because Alonso was involved. It would be fair if any of the other drivers/teams would have done it.

absolute Bull! i was loving the fight between the 2, and i actually was hoping that Alonso would be able to pass Massa on track. when it looked like Massa would stay ahead i was also quite happy, it had been a good battle, but when the order to swap came that tainted all of it.

if it had been Vettel and Webber, Jenson and Lewis, Rosberg and MS, the sentiments would be the same.

so quit with the conspiracy theory/poor me routine

[F1boat]

These are rather strong words. Ferrari for me will remain the greatest even if they sometimes cross all lines to win.

[Robinho]

These are rather strong words. Ferrari for me will remain the greatest even if they sometimes cross all lines to win.

then i am sorry to say that i actually pity you. Blind faith is one of the saddest and most dangerous things in the world imo.

[F1boat]

then i am sorry to say that i actually pity you. Blind faith is one of the saddest and most dangerous things in the world imo.

Blind hatred is even worse IMO. I like many teams, including the current McLaren-Mercedes team or the Mercedes GP team, but still, for me, Ferrari are the best team ever, although the current management is so so, to put it mildly.

[ioan]

Ofcourse, but are ferrari ready to pay the prise now?

Ready or not they will have to pay it.

[ioan]

I wish I could get as wound up about this as some others. But I can't... even though I can't stand Alonso. And since his accident, I've been pulling for Massa to get a win. But this is F1 we're talking about. This is Ferrari we're talking about. And most importantly, this is Alonso we're talking about. If the baby hadn't been given his bottle, we would have to suffer through at least a week of him whining and crying in the press. "Ferrari no love me! Ferrari treat me just like McLaren! Everybody against me! Now look what they made me do; I've soiled my diaper! Stefano, get over here and change me!" Then he'd probably search for a way to blackmail somebody at Ferrari unless they let him finish in front of Massa at the next race.

Nah, better to just go ahead and gift him a win than to have to deal with all of that, IMO.

Excellent! :up:
Thanks for the laughs!

[Mia 01]

I wish I could get as wound up about this as some others. But I can't... even though I can't stand Alonso. And since his accident, I've been pulling for Massa to get a win. But this is F1 we're talking about. This is Ferrari we're talking about. And most importantly, this is Alonso we're talking about. If the baby hadn't been given his bottle, we would have to suffer through at least a week of him whining and crying in the press. "Ferrari no love me! Ferrari treat me just like McLaren! Everybody against me! Now look what they made me do; I've soiled my diaper! Stefano, get over here and change me!" Then he'd probably search for a way to blackmail somebody at Ferrari unless they let him finish in front of Massa at the next race.

Nah, better to just go ahead and gift him a win than to have to deal with all of that, IMO.

Agreed, but theres a bigger picture.

[Mia 01]

then i am sorry to say that i actually pity you. Blind faith is one of the saddest and most dangerous things in the world imo.

Agreed.

[Robinho]

Blind hatred is even worse IMO. I like many teams, including the current McLaren-Mercedes team or the Mercedes GP team, but still, for me, Ferrari are the best team ever, although the current management is so so, to put it mildly.

then you will note, of course, that i am not the author of the thread, and if you check all of my posts on here you'll notice i have never purported to hate anything or anyone (expect Kerry Katona but thats a different story).

i agree with you, in fact blind hated and blind faith often go hand in hand. i don't hate ferrari, i dislike the affair today and the especially the way the team has handled it. i also agree the current management is "so so" at best!

but even if it was my favourite team or driver, i could, and would not, say that i would support them despite anything they did to win, however low down and dirty

[Mia 01]

Ready or not they will have to pay it.

Yes, this race will have a price tag, for sure. If FIA liked them before and favoured them, it´s no moore. This was to obvious.

Jean cant afford it now.

[foxystoat]

I'm glad I didn't bet on that race all monies should be refunded as it was a rigged result.

[Mia 01]

I'm glad I didn't bet on that race all monies should be refunded as it was a rigged result.

I´m glad you mentioned this. All bidders on Felipe now has a legal rights to press charges to ferrari and bind them to courts for years.

[donKey jote]

bollox... you've only got yourself to blame if you bet on a Ferrari knowing what they're like :p
what next, nanny laws for gamblers? :crazy:

[CNR]

http://i30.tinypic.com/5nvi4n.png

[donKey jote]

hahhaha

I like it !

:D :D :D

[Mia 01]

bollox... you've only got yourself to blame if you bet on a Ferrari knowing what they're like :p
what next, nanny laws for gamblers? :crazy:

the betters will take them to court. this is a crime in civil law.

[airshifter]

For even Ferrari this was so blatant it's amazing.

Felipe should have let the crying Alonso pass just before the pits, then parked the car in front of the Ferrari stand and got out.

[Dave B]

this is a crime in civil law.
That's an oxymoron.

[pino]

PAST TEAM ORDERS INCIDENTS :

Jerez 1997: McLaren order David Coulthard to let Mika Hakkinen past to win

Australia 1998: McLaren order Coulthard to let Hakkinen past to win

Belgium 1998: Jordan order Ralf Schumacher not to race Damon Hill for the lead

Austria 2002: Ferrari order Rubens Barrichello to let Michael Schumacher past to win

Monaco 2007: McLaren order Lewis Hamilton not to challenge Fernando Alonso for the race win

Brazil 2007: Ferrari manipulate Felipe Massa's pit stop to put Kimi Raikkonen
into the lead so he can win the world title

Germany 2008: Heikki Kovalainen lets McLaren team-mate Hamilton through so he can win the race following an error in team tactics

Singapore 2008: Renault order Nelson Piquet to crash to cause a safety car period that helps Alonso win

China 2008: Raikkonen hands Massa second place behind Hamilton so he is in a better championship position heading into the final race


It looks like other Team used Team Orders too...

[Dave B]

PAST TEAM ORDERS INCIDENTS :

Jerez 1997: McLaren order David Coulthard to let Mika Hakkinen past to win

Australia 1998: McLaren order Coulthard to let Hakkinen past to win

Belgium 1998: Jordan order Ralf Schumacher not to race Damon Hill for the lead

Irrelevant, they weren't illegal back then.


Austria 2002: Ferrari order Rubens Barrichello to let Michael Schumacher past to win

Again not illegal, but done so blatantly that the rules were changed soon after.


Monaco 2007: McLaren order Lewis Hamilton not to challenge Fernando Alonso for the race win
Didn't interfere with the race result as no positions changed place.


Brazil 2007: Ferrari manipulate Felipe Massa's pit stop to put Kimi Raikkonen
into the lead so he can win the world title
Even Max Moseley said that he didn't have a problem with such orders if it was to decide a championship.


Germany 2008: Heikki Kovalainen lets McLaren team-mate Hamilton through so he can win the race following an error in team tactics
No evidence has ever been put forward that this was anything other than Heikki's decision. The stewards and the FIA chose not to investigate it. In any case, Heikki went on to finish 5th, it was hardly a straight swap of positions.


Singapore 2008: Renault order Nelson Piquet to crash to cause a safety car period that helps Alonso win
Which was rightly punished - although as it was so long after the event that the truth came out, Alonso escaped squeaky clean.


China 2008: Raikkonen hands Massa second place behind Hamilton so he is in a better championship position heading into the final race
Again, to decide a championship.


It looks like other Team used Team Orders too...
Since it became illegal, no other team has blatantly fixed a race, reversing the position of drivers running 1st and 2nd, fo no other reason than apparently massaging somebody's ego.

[pino]

Dave, what's not illegal for the FIA can/could be illegal for the fans, so I don't see any difference between what Ferrari did on sunday with what other Team did in the past...

[ShiftingGears]

Again, to decide a championship.


Ferrari wouldn't do what they did if they thought it couldn't decide a championship.

[Dave B]

How would people feel if the rule was clarified such that team orders are banned unless one driver mathematically cannot win the championship?

[Retro Formula 1]

I would prefer if the team order rule was scrapped. Not because I like teams and not drivers deciding results (personally, I hate it but understand the need sometimes) but because it's impossible to enforce.

[Mia 01]

I´m glad that all radio traffic between the drivers and the team next year will be public.

[Dave B]

I´m glad that all radio traffic between the drivers and the team next year will be public.
Next year? It already is: Hockenheim was the first race in which the teams no longer have the option of denying FOM access to their transmissions.

[ArrowsFA1]

Next year? It already is: Hockenheim was the first race in which the teams no longer have the option of denying FOM access to their transmissions.
Which probably has quite a lot to do with the stink this has caused. If we hadn't heard Rob SPELL. IT. OUT. TO. FELIPE. as we did the pass may have looked suspect, but there wouldn't have been much to back up those suspicions.

Not that it isn't a good thing that we have access to more transmissions, but it's a factor.

[wedge]

Probably why Whitmarsh is meeting with Dominicali. They were keen on keeping their transmissions scrambled.

Most disgraceful team? McLaren/2007. Team orders are a necessary evil but access to and using stolen blueprints is far, far worse.

[pino]

Most disgraceful team? McLaren/2007. Team orders are a necessary evil but access to and using stolen blueprints is far, far worse.

Exactly :up:

[ArrowsFA1]

... access to and using stolen blueprints is far, far worse.
There's more than one team that falls into that particular category, but my vote for the most disgraceful team goes to Andrea Moda (http://www.f1rejects.com/teams/andreamoda/profile.html). As Autosport said of them at the time of their demise "motor racing should really be left to motor racing people, people who have a vague idea...what they are doing".

[Retro Formula 1]

Exactly :up:

Come on Pino. You know that all teams have IP from their competitors, not just McLaren and Renault.

This latest Ferrari incident was regrettable and the result of a stupid rule. It was an obvious, crass and premeditated snub to the rules and smacks of an arrogance from Alonso and the Itallian management that they could be so blatent. For a country that is more prancing Peacock than Prancing Stallion, it was inelegant to say the least.

We can think of other examples as well. Electronics, team orders, crashing into competitors, tyre partnerships, veto votes and favouritism.

BUT, I'm not going to call them Disgracefull. That is the sort of behaviour the children on the forum use. It would be better that we try to protect and support the teams in F1, especiallythe elder statesmen that have contributed so much to the sport like Williams, Ferrari and McLaren.

This year, the teams are working better tomorrow for the sake of the sport (as much as they ever will). Perhaps the real fans can not stick the boot in quite as hard?

[Roamy]

Ha Ha I just can't wait until Flavio takes over Ferrari. This forum is going to hemorrhage

[Dave B]

Ha Ha I just can't wait until Flavio takes over Ferrari. This forum is going to hemorrhage
And just how would he work in the paddock without a licence once the FIA introduce them?

Flavio. Nobody. Is. Sleazier. Than. You. Can you confirm you understood that?

[Retro Formula 1]

And just how would he work in the paddock without a licence once the FIA introduce them?

Flavio. Nobody. Is. Sleazier. Than. You. Can you confirm you understood that?

PML :laugh:

[ioan]

How would people feel if the rule was clarified such that team orders are banned unless one driver mathematically cannot win the championship?

Good.

[Mia 01]

Good.

This is honest, but theres no need to made it blatant even then.

I wonder a bit over the driver status in the Mercedes team.

[HoldenCaulfield]

PAST TEAM ORDERS INCIDENTS :

Jerez 1997: McLaren order David Coulthard to let Mika Hakkinen past to win

Australia 1998: McLaren order Coulthard to let Hakkinen past to win

Belgium 1998: Jordan order Ralf Schumacher not to race Damon Hill for the lead

Austria 2002: Ferrari order Rubens Barrichello to let Michael Schumacher past to win

Monaco 2007: McLaren order Lewis Hamilton not to challenge Fernando Alonso for the race win

Brazil 2007: Ferrari manipulate Felipe Massa's pit stop to put Kimi Raikkonen
into the lead so he can win the world title

Germany 2008: Heikki Kovalainen lets McLaren team-mate Hamilton through so he can win the race following an error in team tactics

Singapore 2008: Renault order Nelson Piquet to crash to cause a safety car period that helps Alonso win

China 2008: Raikkonen hands Massa second place behind Hamilton so he is in a better championship position heading into the final race


It looks like other Team used Team Orders too...


Half your examples occurred before such things were outlawed, so they were not "incidents" merely legal racing.
Clearly other teams use team orders, but none so needlessly or clumsily.

Many of the post Austria examples were dubious. It may be wishful thinking but I believe there is a distinction between "holding" and "switching". Holding position in high attrition races or where reliability is a concern sounds like expediency or common sense to me rather than rigging, besides you're very much in the realm of What ifs. If Driver A is catching Driver B it can be because driver A knows that they are holding position, if A was genuinely threatened by B then he may well have increased his pace etc. its all variable, you can't theorize or legislate for that.



Personally I would like to see that distinction clarified in the regulations.
At the end of the day needlessly switching cars positions slap bang in the middle of the season to satisfy one drivers ego upsets the majority of fans and hurts the sports credibility in the eyes of the media.





Ferrari wouldn't do what they did if they thought it couldn't decide a championship.

Standings doing into Austria 2002, with Schumacher having won 4 of the 1st 5 races and comming off of the 01 season where he had won 9 races and taken the championship by a massive (and record breaking) 58 points:
Pos Driver Points
1 Michael Schumacher 54
2 Juan Pablo Montoya 27
3 Ralf Schumacher 23

Championship didn't seem to be hanging in the balance then.

[Copse]

Dave, what's not illegal for the FIA can/could be illegal for the fans, so I don't see any difference between what Ferrari did on sunday with what other Team did in the past...

Huge difference. Illegal is illegal, and bad sportsmanship is bad sportsmanship. Germany last week was the former, and Austria -02 was the latter. When a team deliberately, obviously and blatantly breaks the rules, they should be punished by the Stewards and/or the FIA. When a team or driver follows the rules but acts in ways that most would consider bad sportsmanship, the rule makers should not interfere. The punishment of the team should merely be less respect, less fans, less sponsors and in the end less income. And if fans are blind followers and provide them with income anyway, then good on the team for having built such a bullet proof reputation.

I was disappointed that the rules were changed after Austria. The rule should have stood, and should be scrapped as soon as possible. Ferrari are a despicable team, and I always wish them the worst possible results, but when the championship is decided the way it is, it should be up to the team to play it fair or play it ugly.

[mstillhere]

After supporting Ferrari F1 for last 15 years. after today, the way Massa who was leading the race for 50 laps and deserved the win, was asked to pull over for over hyped and over overtrated cheat Alonso jst for championship. Ferrari jst lost my vote and i feel they are disgrace to the whole sport as a whole after last race and this race.

Ferrari U Suck

By saying that, you are showing how little you know about f1. You need to eunderstand that everyone does it. PERIOD. Of course you are innocent until when you are caught. You and your buddies here are pretending that other teams were never involved in scandals amd all wear the sanctity white hat. And that's what I find inexusable. Had been Button moving over for LH, as it has happened, NONE of you would have found that behaviour terrible and you would have gone out of your way to rationalize it and excuse it as you did when LH passed the SC, first time in the history of F1 that a driver did that.

The truth of the matter is that nobody, excluding myself, writes in here based on the true nature of the offense but only with a super heavy biased opinion. So, I strongly disagree with what you wrote and get ready since soon "some" other team WILL do something horrible as well. However, I know already that the "white glove treatment" is only reserved for Ferrari. Everyone else, as long as they are not Ferrari, the most prestigious firm in F1, gets a:" well.....yes....but....." Please.............

[mstillhere]

Huge difference. Illegal is illegal, and bad sportsmanship is bad sportsmanship. Germany last week was the former, and Austria -02 was the latter. When a team deliberately, obviously and blatantly breaks the rules, they should be punished by the Stewards and/or the FIA. When a team or driver follows the rules but acts in ways that most would consider bad sportsmanship, the rule makers should not interfere. The punishment of the team should merely be less respect, less fans, less sponsors and in the end less income. And if fans are blind followers and provide them with income anyway, then good on the team for having built such a bullet proof reputation.

I was disappointed that the rules were changed after Austria. The rule should have stood, and should be scrapped as soon as possible. Ferrari are a despicable team, and I always wish them the worst possible results, but when the championship is decided the way it is, it should be up to the team to play it fair or play it ugly.

Get a life buddy. You seem to particularly upset over it. I hope you are not going to start shooting anyone who wears a red shirt.

[Copse]

Get a life buddy. You seem to particularly upset over it. I hope you are not going to start shooting anyone who wears a red shirt.

What the heck. There's no need for that attitude. :down:

What did you trigger on? "despicable"? "bad sportsmanship"? "play it ugly"? None of those are particularly indicative of a shooting spree, are they?

What would be the point of watching sports if all fans love all competitors equally, and happily enjoy anybody winning. I might not have a favourite F1 team anymore, but having a few anti-favourites also makes things interesting. Unlike many other people here, I actually think Ferrari should have been allowed to do what they did. If there is no difference between teams, how could fans choose one to support? Ferrari is one that plays ugly, and thus I am not their fan, but if they think it benefits them in the long run, let them.

[mstillhere]

What the heck. There's no need for that attitude. :down:

What did you trigger on? "despicable"? "bad sportsmanship"? "play it ugly"? None of those are particularly indicative of a shooting spree, are they?

What would be the point of watching sports if all fans love all competitors equally, and happily enjoy anybody winning. I might not have a favourite F1 team anymore, but having a few anti-favourites also makes things interesting. Unlike many other people here, I actually think Ferrari should have been allowed to do what they did. If there is no difference between teams, how could fans choose one to support? Ferrari is one that plays ugly, and thus I am not their fan, but if they think it benefits them in the long run, let them.

Hum...ok....ok...take it easy...it's ok...

[Saint Devote]

After supporting Ferrari F1 for last 15 years. after today, the way Massa who was leading the race for 50 laps and deserved the win, was asked to pull over for over hyped and over overtrated cheat Alonso jst for championship. Ferrari jst lost my vote and i feel they are disgrace to the whole sport as a whole after last race and this race.

Ferrari U Suck

O gimme a break!

So for 15 years you watched and supported a team that Schumacher dominated and required drivers to pull over. In addition, you found it all fair with Ferrari having a techinical veto and still you kept the faith.

Along comes a fairly capable driver, Massa - who was flattered by the car during his 2008 fight because he is nowhere near equal to Hamilton and for that matter Alonso - and the German Grand Prix suddenly made Ferrari unacceptable to you :rotflmao:

Believe me, and as anyone here can tell you that like me is steeped in motor racing history, what happened at Hockenheim is nothing compared to what has occurred previously.

You may not like it but this is a very expensive sport and the teams have the right to leverage their assets - the RIGHT.

Either you accept this reality and only today Ross Brawn acknowledged the public anger, but is adamant that team orders have a place in F1, or you abandon motor racing.

Clearly the cause of your disaffection, Massa does not look at things the same way you do. Has Massa resigned on principle after his big sulking and "poor me" session? No.

Felipe Massa is still a Ferrari driver and will obey the same command at a future date. Obviously he is not THAT upset by it.

I think what really upset Massa was reality smacking him HARD in the face.

[mstillhere]

O gimme a break!

So for 15 years you watched and supported a team that Schumacher dominated and required drivers to pull over. In addition, you found it all fair with Ferrari having a techinical veto and still you kept the faith.

Along comes a fairly capable driver, Massa - who was flattered by the car during his 2008 fight because he is nowhere near equal to Hamilton and for that matter Alonso - and the German Grand Prix suddenly made Ferrari unacceptable to you :rotflmao:

Believe me, and as anyone here can tell you that like me is steeped in motor racing history, what happened at Hockenheim is nothing compared to what has occurred previously.

You may not like it but this is a very expensive sport and the teams have the right to leverage their assets - the RIGHT.

Either you accept this reality and only today Ross Brawn acknowledged the public anger, but is adamant that team orders have a place in F1, or you abandon motor racing.

Clearly the cause of your disaffection, Massa does not look at things the same way you do. Has Massa resigned on principle after his big sulking and "poor me" session? No.

Felipe Massa is still a Ferrari driver and will obey the same command at a future date. Obviously he is not THAT upset by it.

I think what really upset Massa was reality smacking him HARD in the face.

I totally second that. I feel most of these posts are more emotionally driven than any thing else. And most of the hate posts surface in particular when it's about Ferrari. As I mentioned earlier, if anyone else does even worse offenses, I really don't see much a of a moral lynching. The forum members, espcially the NOT Ferrari fans) selectvely direct hateful and nonsensical words towards the Ferrari team. And that's done regardless of the offense Ferrari would have committed. Just two weeks ago the big deal because Alonso passed Kubica the way he did. Before that the pathetic Marlboro bars on the fin of the car. Whatever. People are after the red team whatever the reason. My problem is that the criticism is not based on the gravity of what was done but WHO did it. I would expect the same lynching mob say horrible things even if Alonso were to wear a green helmet or a pink one or whatever.

[truefan72]

I would have to agree with donkey
Austria 2002 was #1
Germany 2010 is #2

When you do something so disgraceful that it prompts a rule change despite being legal, it has to go down as a monumental moment in the hall of shame of F1.

Germany 2008 is a close second for the mere fact that it was illegal and the team seem not to care one bit about breaking a rule, putting the sport in disrepute and overall causing a pr nightmare and disharmony in the team. Add to that the conflicting accounts of the events by all participated ( actually telling lies) along with the maximum fine levied by the stewards and referral to the wmsc ,which should have included stripping them of the results like they did Hamilton in Australia ( i guess a stupid lie is worse than an outright breaking of the rules that affected the outcome of the race) and you are left with no other conclusion than this was a disgraceful incident.

As to the matter of most disgraceful team in F1 history, the Ferrari team of the past 20 years and their countless incidents, cheating, implicit support from the FIA, secret veto's, changing rules to fit around their new broken rule, and a laundry list of questionable tactics and actions, all make for a compelling case for that title.

[Roamy]

hey you guys just wait until Flavio takes over.

[Dave B]

Believe me, and as anyone here can tell you that like me is steeped in motor racing history, what happened at Hockenheim is nothing compared to what has occurred previously.
Oh I agree: previously it wasn't against the rules.

[Dave B]

hey you guys just wait until Flavio takes over.
For the umpteenth time, and in my best Rob Smedley voice:

It... will... never... happen. Please confirm you understand that.

[donKey jote]

I feel most of these posts are more emotionally driven than any thing else. And most of the hate posts surface in particular when it's about Ferrari.
And the rest surface when it's about Big Bad Boo Man :laugh:
Ferrari and Alonso combined - your worst nightmare :eek:

[Dave B]

I would expect the same lynching mob say horrible things even if Alonso were to wear a green helmet or a pink one or whatever.
All the time Alonso remains a whinging cry-baby who seems only able to win when his team mate is told to hold station / pull over / crash into a wall, I'll criticise him whatever he wears and whoever he drives for.

The real pity in all this is that he's actually a brilliant driver and doesn't (or at least shouldn't) need to resort to these tactics. I genuinely believe he was capable of overtaking Massa on merit in Hockenheim, and it's a great shame that we were denied the chance to find out.

As I said in another thread, even if they'd been running in P2 and P3 and Alonso was let through to give him a chance of hunting down the leader, then I'd have been ok with it. But Ferrari management going on about "the good of the team" is a smokescreen when you score the same for a 1-2 as you do for a 2-1.

[SGWilko]

I did have to chuckle that Onslo told the press he thought Massa had a gearbox problem, which is why he slowed down.

[Retro Formula 1]

I totally second that. I feel most of these posts are more emotionally driven than any thing else. And most of the hate posts surface in particular when it's about Ferrari. As I mentioned earlier, if anyone else does even worse offenses, I really don't see much a of a moral lynching. The forum members, espcially the NOT Ferrari fans) selectvely direct hateful and nonsensical words towards the Ferrari team. And that's done regardless of the offense Ferrari would have committed. Just two weeks ago the big deal because Alonso passed Kubica the way he did. Before that the pathetic Marlboro bars on the fin of the car. Whatever. People are after the red team whatever the reason. My problem is that the criticism is not based on the gravity of what was done but WHO did it. I would expect the same lynching mob say horrible things even if Alonso were to wear a green helmet or a pink one or whatever.

You accuse people of having emotionally driven views and then submit a post so full of emotion, perceived victimisation and accusations that any point you are trying to make just sounds like whining.

There are a few children on here that display immature adoration or vitriol for a particular team but most people try to be even handed on both sides.

Lets just be logical and strip out any team identity for a second and tell me what decisions you think are unjust.

Team A display a recognised brand associated with Cigarette advertising which is banned. Team A are made to remove said advertising. Legitimate Y/N

Team B has a driver that illegally overtakes (by the smallest of margins) the safety car as it exits the pits and gets a drive through.
Legitimate Y/N

Team C has a driver that goes for an overtake move but doesn't complete it on track and goes all 4 wheels off track to complete the pass which he couldn't have accomplished otherwise. He doesn't relinquish the position despite being advised by the race director that he probably should and gets a penalty. Legitimate Y/N

Team D has a driver that goes for an overtake move but doesn't complete it on track and goes all 4 wheels off track to complete the pass which he couldn't have accomplished otherwise. He relinquishes the position but immediately retakes the slower car and is advised by the race director that it's probably OK but then gets a post race penalty. Legitimate Y/N

Team E give a very clear indication to a driver leading the race to let his team mate through which the driver does in an obvious way blatantly contravening the very rule brought in to stop this happening and gets a penalty. Legitimate Y/N

Team F come up with a plan to fix a race win by deliberately crashing their 2nd driver. 2nd Driver and 2 management are banned but the driver who benefited receives no penalty. Legitimate Y/N

Team G have a secret Veto that can be used on the sports governing body to the detriment of the other teams who have no knowledge of this advantage. No action is taken. Legitimate Y/N

Team H have IP of another team and lost all their constructors points for the year as well as a $100m fine. Legitimate Y/N

Team I have IP of another team but no action is taken. Legitimate Y/N

Team J have a driver correctly overtake a competitor when the SC comes and and SC restrictions have been lifted from the course but still receives a penalty because of a badly worded and debatable rule. Legitimate Y/N

Team K has a driver in Q3 that impedes another driver in qualifying for Monaco but escapes without penalty. Legitimate Y/N

Just a few examples mainly from this season but it will be interesting to understand, once teams and drivers are stripped out, which you agree are fair. Then perhaps we can discuss the situations that arise without using terms like "hater" which more usually means "objective"?

[mstillhere]

All the time Alonso remains a whinging cry-baby who seems only able to win when his team mate is told to hold station / pull over / crash into a wall, I'll criticise him whatever he wears and whoever he drives for.

The real pity in all this is that he's actually a brilliant driver and doesn't (or at least shouldn't) need to resort to these tactics. I genuinely believe he was capable of overtaking Massa on merit in Hockenheim, and it's a great shame that we were denied the chance to find out.

As I said in another thread, even if they'd been running in P2 and P3 and Alonso was let through to give him a chance of hunting down the leader, then I'd have been ok with it. But Ferrari management going on about "the good of the team" is a smokescreen when you score the same for a 1-2 as you do for a 2-1.

What I like about your commnet your idealiasm. An idealism that unfortunatly crashes with the reality of how things are run in F1. I do agree with you that in an ideal world only the best should win. But, and I am saying this happily, reality has shown us times and again that ANY team would do WHATEVER it takes to bring the 1st place trophy home. I have seen it and you have seen it as well. Is it pretty to watch? NO. Does it happen? YES. The only thing I would expect from you, is to see your idealism applied whenever some thing unfair occurs. REGARDLESS of who the culprit is. Then, and only then, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, and you know this better than me, partisanship plays a huge role in this forum. And ss I wrote earlier, what it matters to people in this forum is not what happened, but rather WHO did it. And if it is Ferrari heads start rolling. If I don't see a change in this behaviour then we are simply wasting our time in our debates. I have been very honest and harshily critisized Ferrari _ and Ian as well, for that matter -whenever they screwed up. So I am not really that biased. And in this case I think it's higly hipocritical to cry scandal over something that everyone does. The difference is they know how to do it and the new Ferrari managment group is still learning. That's all there is to it.

[Big Ben]

Or you could put that down to an inferiority complex of a small number of Ferrari fans who can't take criticism. There's no hate on here and the fact of the matter is as soon as anybody analyses a situation regarding Ferrari in any form of negative tone, the 'haters' card is played. Get over it. :rolleyes:

And you are saying this because your the mob's lawyer or what? I think the only reason you reply like this to a post that is not directed to you is a a heavy conscience. Go on, read this thread's title again and tell me, does it sound it reasonable to you? I've said before that I didn't see the race but reading stuff from this forum I would think Alonso killed Massa's child.

[Valve Bounce]

Judging by the hysteria and nonsense discussed here, I think this is just about the silliest thread ever started in this forum.
If people will just use their noggin and try to think back, ask yourself which team (apart from my favorite Super Aguri) hasnever at some time bennefitted from team strategy? Why all the fuss?

The rule is a stupid rule and most of us have opined at one stage or another that it would never work. Now with the stupid "two types of tyre must be used" and the "no refuelling" rules in place, this stupid rule is turning F1 racing into a farce.

Just ask yourself: "What is the sense in having a fuel saving situation during an F1 race?" F1 racing is supposed to be about all out speed, with the fastest and best driver being the winner, all things being equal and working out (except when lady luck kicks the guy in the bum, of course).

You have a race, line the drivers up according to fastest qualifyer at the front, start the race and may the best driver in the fastest car win. What's wrong with that? And if a team wants to make sure that both cars finish high in the points, like first and second, then what's wrong with telling them not to crash into each other?

Ferrai is motor racing, always has been, always will be. Go up to some guy in the street who knows nothing about motor racing and ask him to name a racing car; nine times out of ten he will say "Ferrari".

Get real, people!! there is a real world out there.

[Big Ben]

I would have to agree with donkey
Austria 2002 was #1
Germany 2010 is #2

When you do something so disgraceful that it prompts a rule change despite being legal, it has to go down as a monumental moment in the hall of shame of F1.

Germany 2008 is a close second for the mere fact that it was illegal and the team seem not to care one bit about breaking a rule, putting the sport in disrepute and overall causing a pr nightmare and disharmony in the team. Add to that the conflicting accounts of the events by all participated ( actually telling lies) along with the maximum fine levied by the stewards and referral to the wmsc ,which should have included stripping them of the results like they did Hamilton in Australia ( i guess a stupid lie is worse than an outright breaking of the rules that affected the outcome of the race) and you are left with no other conclusion than this was a disgraceful incident.

As to the matter of most disgraceful team in F1 history, the Ferrari team of the past 20 years and their countless incidents, cheating, implicit support from the FIA, secret veto's, changing rules to fit around their new broken rule, and a laundry list of questionable tactics and actions, all make for a compelling case for that title.

The end of world is close.. these are the first signs.

[truefan72]

The end of world is close.. these are the first signs.

...said by the paranoid

[Dave B]

But, and I am saying this happily, reality has shown us times and again that ANY team would do WHATEVER it takes to bring the 1st place trophy home.
The team already had the first place trophy in the bag, their problem was that it wasn't their favoured driver about to pick it up. If Ferrari had the simple honesty to say "yes, Alonso's #1 and Massa's #2" then I might be able to muster some sympathy for their actions. But all the time they hide between this "for the good of the team" BS they lose all credibility.


The only thing I would expect from you, is to see your idealism applied whenever some thing unfair occurs. REGARDLESS of who the culprit is. Then, and only then, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, and you know this better than me, partisanship plays a huge role in this forum. And ss I wrote earlier, what it matters to people in this forum is not what happened, but rather WHO did it. And if it is Ferrari heads start rolling. If I don't see a change in this behaviour then we are simply wasting our time in our debates. I have been very honest and harshily critisized Ferrari _ and Ian as well, for that matter -whenever they screwed up. So I am not really that biased. And in this case I think it's higly hipocritical to cry scandal over something that everyone does. The difference is they know how to do it and the new Ferrari managment group is still learning. That's all there is to it.

If any other team is stupid and arrogant enough to treat the fans and viewers with such contempt, then I'll criticise them. Hasn't happened since 2002 though, when... oh wait.

[Big Ben]

The team already had the first place trophy in the bag, their problem was that it wasn't their favoured driver about to pick it up. If Ferrari had the simple honesty to say "yes, Alonso's #1 and Massa's #2" then I might be able to muster some sympathy for their actions. But all the time they hide between this "for the good of the team" BS they lose all credibility.



If any other team is stupid and arrogant enough to treat the fans and viewers with such contempt, then I'll criticise them. Hasn't happened since 2002 though, when... oh wait.

The interest of the team is to win the wcc and more than that, that one of its drivers wins the wdc. I'm sorry you can't understand that.

[mstillhere]

Or you could put that down to an inferiority complex of a small number of Ferrari fans who can't take criticism. There's no hate on here and the fact of the matter is as soon as anybody analyses a situation regarding Ferrari in any form of negative tone, the 'haters' card is played. Get over it. :rolleyes:

So, no hate posts in here? You are serious? I wonder what is that you call a hate comment. Even I that I don't like McLaren don't go over a certain line of decency. Here several people are calling Ferrari any kind of name and you don't see any hatred. And after reading comments of the British press, I have to say I am astounded by the harsh comments some journalists have made.

Further more, I have noticed that with the front wings issue, although Red Bull started having these flex/non-flex wings a long time ago and although Ferrrari caught up way later with them, when people/journalists talk about it the first name I hear/read is Ferrari and their "interesting wings". There is a very short, almost incidental reference to Red Bull in these articles, but 2/3 of the article is about Ferrari's wings. That brings me back to my original point, which is all the Ferrrari ennemies seriously lack of honest and objective views. Until when it was Red Bull using these wings, everybody was happy. No problem there. They past the test. Now that Ferrrari have them as well, now it is an issue. Oh boy, if Ferrrai does it, then they must be cheating. Oh please! You guys would love not to have any Ferrari fans in here so that you could say whatever you wanted about Ferrari all the time. I am sorry but I find the reaction of some of the members in here way over the line and as mentioned hypocrtical. And my opinion was especially reinforced after Dorner made his comments against team orders. That was really rich coming from him. The nerve!!

[donKey jote]

reaction ... way over the line

hyper-critical :p

[ioan]

...said by the paranoid

:up:

[Mia 01]

Nope, they arent, not whitout MS