All Are Equal, but some are more.... [Archive]

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Camelopard

21st July 2010, 20:29

So this fella meets a women and they go off and have consensual sex.........

No problems there, happens all the time, except she then accuses the fella of rape, not unusual in its self. Again, I'm sure this happens farily regularly for all sorts of reasons, real or imagined.

How about having consensual sex then crying rape because you found out the fella is not of the same faith as you, could it happen.

Seems that it does....... although they call it 'rape by deception'! It's ok to get up to all sorts of stuff if you are both of the same religion. Poor bloke, guess that will teach him a good lesson for daring to think that he was an equal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10717186

"The test the court used is problematic," said Elkana Laist. (Israeli Public Defenders' Office)
"Every time a man tells a woman he loves her, based on which she sleeps with him, he could be convicted of rape."

Jag_Warrior

21st July 2010, 20:34

Oh, it happened in Israel. :dozey: I can't say I'm all that surprised by the verdict with that being the case. That dirty A-rab. Serves him right! :rolleyes:

BTW, she had sex with a guy the same day she met him on the street? And the judge had the nerve to talk about deception of "innocent victims at an unbearable price - the sanctity of their bodies and souls." Innocent???!!! My good man, this girl was a sl__, if not a wh___. If he'd slipped her a fifty or a packet of coke afterward, nothing more would have been said, IMO.

Rani

21st July 2010, 22:45

I agree this is a racist ruling, which was very debated today throughout the media. I think the woman is at fault for jumping into bed (I guess you could call the roof of a building that) with a stranger.

Beat you to it Eki......... although I didn't use the "I" word because I knew that some people would accuse me of being anti israeli or anti US or some such.

Well Camelopard, I didn't see you and Eki jump like this when various western and 'enlightened' countries started making these blunt anti-islamic laws, so I think calling you anti Israel is just about right.

Some laws countries have passed recently while you were posting about the World Cup, music, birds, flying donkeys (a sad incident indeed) and the such:

Anti Mosque minaret law in Switzerland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minaret_controversy_in_Switzerland

Anti Burka laws in France and Belgium and proposals in Australia
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1260957/Sarkozy-s-anti-burqa-law-approved

http://www.cogwriter.com/news/religious-news/burqa-banning-in-belgium-italy-france-and-australia/

They even ban burqas in your beloved Syria's universities now:
http://news.oneindia.in/2010/07/19/syria-bans-burqas-in-universities.html

Why aren't you fighting for their religious freedom? Those poor syrian students!

Admittedly, The poor guy (read: one person) who lied to a girl about being jewish was wrongfully sentenced, at least in my view. But how does it make you guys look when laws which affect hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent people's lives are passed in your backyard parliaments?

This shines a bright hyporcritical light upon you guys, to say the least.

And now for you, Mr. Warrior. I'd expect more vacillation from a guy waving the flag of a country where this recently passed (http://www.thelmagazine.com/TheMeasure/archives/2010/04/23/arizona-governor-signs-racist-unconstitutional-immigration-bill-in-cowardly-friday-afternoon-news-dump), a country which has a rich history of racism and prejudice, to say the least:

1. The national guard had to escort students to their university in Alabama
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/university-of-alabama-desegregated

2. You arrested, interrogated and threw out of the military americans for being of japanese descent. http://worldwar2database.com/html/intern.htm

3. You guys used to own slaves, not so long ago.

4. This: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_United_States

5. The University of Virginia only started letting woman study in 1970. This is about the only university I've actually been to in the US, I bet others went along at roughly the same time. BTW by this time Golda Meir (a woman) was the PM of Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golda_Meir

Americans should be the last people to be throwing the racism ball around. Well not the last maybe. You've got several 'enlightened' european countries ahead of you on that list.

Camelopard

22nd July 2010, 06:40

Well Camelopard, I didn't see you and Eki jump like this when various western and 'enlightened' countries started making these blunt anti-islamic laws, so I think calling you anti Israel is just about right.

Some laws countries have passed recently while you were posting about the World Cup, music, birds, flying donkeys (a sad incident indeed) and the such:......

Admittedly, The poor guy (read: one person) who lied to a girl about being jewish was wrongfully sentenced, at least in my view. But how does it make you guys look when laws which affect hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent people's lives are passed in your backyard parliaments?

Well you have fallen in to the trap of automatically believing the girl (because she is jewish, right?), he said he made no mention to her of being from the jewish religion or of being an arab and therefore lying to her and they had consensual sex, i.e. they BOTH agreed to it, what part of that don't you understand? Doesn't sound like rape in my book.

I guess the woman was concerned that once it got out that she slept with a dirty arab, her potential value as a good kosher wife was down the drain, soiled goods and all that. :)

As for the other points, I can't be bothered about making comments on everything on this forum, I waste enough time here as it is. I would also say that your replies are very carefully measured, you only seem to post in this section when you feel you have to defend your religion. So Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle................... works both ways.

In fact I haven't made a post about anything for quite some time, I get tired of arguing with clowns like voppie who think there is nothing wrong with putting a donkey on a parasail.

What about the fact that I might actually agree with the ban on burqas? I don't actually have a problem with that as I think they belong in the dark ages along with lot's of elements from all religions, yours included and as for banning mosques in Switzerland, they can make their own laws as far as I'm concerned. You see, unlike you, the world to me isn't straight black or white.

I have made the comment before that in my opinion israel is an apartheid state and this sort of ruling does nothing to change my mind.

Eki

22nd July 2010, 06:53

Rani

22nd July 2010, 08:04

Well you have fallen in to the trap of automatically believing the girl (because she is jewish, right?), he said he made no mention to her of being from the jewish religion or of being an arab and therefore lying to her and they had consensual sex, i.e. they BOTH agreed to it, what part of that don't you understand? Doesn't sound like rape in my book.

I guess the woman was concerned that once it got out that she slept with a dirty arab, her potential value as a good kosher wife was down the drain, soiled goods and all that. :)

As for the other points, I can't be bothered about making comments on everything on this forum, I waste enough time here as it is. I would also say that your replies are very carefully measured, you only seem to post in this section when you feel you have to defend your religion. So Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle................... works both ways.

In fact I haven't made a post about anything for quite some time, I get tired of arguing with clowns like voppie who think there is nothing wrong with putting a donkey on a parasail.

What about the fact that I might actually agree with the ban on burqas? I don't actually have a problem with that as I think they belong in the dark ages along with lot's of elements from all religions, yours included and as for banning mosques in Switzerland, they can make their own laws as far as I'm concerned. You see, unlike you, the world to me isn't straight black or white.

I have made the comment before that in my opinion israel is an apartheid state and this sort of ruling does nothing to change my mind.
Did you read my post entirely? Seems to be you just scanned through it without caring what my opinion is.

In the media here it seems he made the girl feel he is a jewish bachelor seeking a long term relationship. Doesn't really matter, he's a sleeze ball, she's dumb and easy...
Of course I don't think this is rape - the girl is as much to blame as the guy in my opinion. Furthermore, this verdict cheapens the rape offence, hurting the poor girls who suffer from it in the process.

Don't you think making laws which target arabs (the butqas and minarets) specifically qualify the countries which make them as apartheid states?
The arabs' freedom of religion is seriously hampered by these laws and you don't seem to mind, yet when a wrongful sentence affects one man in Israel your cannons start blazing, I read that as you having a double standard against Israel.

I actually post on other subjects as well, you just aren't looking hard enough...

Jag_Warrior

22nd July 2010, 09:51

5. The University of Virginia only started letting woman study in 1970. This is about the only university I've actually been to in the US, I bet others went along at roughly the same time. BTW by this time Golda Meir (a woman) was the PM of Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golda_Meir

Hold on a second. Are you a Wahoo?

Americans should be the last people to be throwing the racism ball around. Well not the last maybe. You've got several 'enlightened' european countries ahead of you on that list.

You were saying? ;)

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/01/22/alg_swear2.jpg

Rani

22nd July 2010, 11:17

Hold on a second. Are you a Wahoo?

You were saying? ;)

I am not a Wahoo.

Concerning your picture of Obama, I agree you can erase this line from Tupac's 'Changes':
'And although it seems heaven sent
We ain't ready, to see a black President'

In spite of that, racism is as widespread across the US as it is throughout any racially diversified population. Hope is not lost, though. Heck maybe someday you'll even have a woman president.

Eki

22nd July 2010, 11:18

Hold on a second. Are you a Wahoo?

You were saying? ;)

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/01/22/alg_swear2.jpg
They're doing the traditional Indian greeting? Ugh. That's diverse.

Camelopard

22nd July 2010, 12:26

Posted by mio in the closed thread:

quote "I don't know if it was racist, or just stupid. Last I looked, most of the western world had dopey people like this...

The difference is ( and you guys of course will ignore this ) is this woman wont win her court case. Israel, like most civilized nations has a legal system and set of principles that will likely send this woman packing just as if a woman in NYC sued for the same reasons, or a woman in Helsinki or Glasgow.

It is what separates Israel from the rest of a lot of its neighbours. In a place like Iran, she just might get stoned for making any accuastion....and I don't see her having any rights at all in places like Saudi Arabia or Syria.
Again...your bringing this story forward Eki does point out that all the citizens of Israel, whether they be Arab or Jew at least can access a legal system that is something we would recognize." unquote

Seems that YOU are the one ignoring things here Mark.

I must quote from Rani here, did you 'Mark in oshawa' read the post or just skim through it? Ahh, I thought so, if you had bothered to read it you would have seen that this poor arab bloke was sentenced to 1 1/2 years in jail after being in held in home detention for 2 years.

Seems to me that this whore (is there any other word for her?) won. Do you want to retract your statement? Thought not......... as it doesn't fit with 'your view' of the Middle East!

Justice? I don't think so.

Mark

22nd July 2010, 12:34

If someone pays a hooker in counterfeited money, can he be sentenced for rape in addition to spreading counterfeited money?

No of course not. The 'consent' part is a very simple binary operation, yes, no. And is not subject to any caveats, it's a yes / no situation at the time and consent cannot be retrospectively denied!

Rani

22nd July 2010, 14:26

No of course not. The 'consent' part is a very simple binary operation, yes, no. And is not subject to any caveats, it's a yes / no situation at the time and consent cannot be retrospectively denied!

It's not that simple. Many countries' legal system have statutory rape laws by which rape could take place with consent from the one being raped, like in cases of young people or in cases where the one raping manipulates the victim. The case at hand is the second case being taken very far (too far in my opinion), I.e. the legal system saying this man manpulated the girl into having sex with him.

anthonyvop

22nd July 2010, 15:38

I am not a Wahoo.

Concerning your picture of Obama, I agree you can erase this line from Tupac's 'Changes':
'And although it seems heaven sent
We ain't ready, to see a black President'

In spite of that, racism is as widespread across the US as it is throughout any racially diversified population. Hope is not lost, though. Heck maybe someday you'll even have a woman president.

You are quoting Tupac Shakur????

Rani

22nd July 2010, 16:29

You are quoting Tupac Shakur????
Yes.
Wouldn't you agree it complements the pluralistic nature of this thread?

Eki

22nd July 2010, 16:30

I.e. the legal system saying this man manpulated the girl into having sex with him.
If men didn't manipulate women into having sex with them (and vice versa), the human kind would go extinct very soon.

Does this mean that if I have sex with a woman wearing make up and then see her without make up and she doesn't look so good I thought she did, I can charge her for rape by deception?

Rani

22nd July 2010, 16:40

If men didn't manipulate women into having sex with them (and vice versa), the human kind would go extinct very soon.

And they say romance is dead...
I see you're as poetic as ever.

Firstgear

22nd July 2010, 18:01

Does this mean that if I have sex with a woman wearing make up and then see her without make up and she doesn't look so good I thought she did, I can charge her for rape by deception?

That depends. When you get out of bed in the morning to find out that she's a man, you'd probably have a pretty good chance. :p

Rani

22nd July 2010, 20:22

Eki

22nd July 2010, 20:36

They probably told him that if he confesses, he'll get 18 months and if he doesn't confess, he'll get at least 4 years (48 months). Under those conditions (18 < 48), I know I would confess too.

Rani

22nd July 2010, 20:46

They probably told him that if he confesses, he'll get 18 months and if he doesn't confess, he'll get at least 4 years (48 months). Under those conditions (18 < 48), I know I would confess too.

I'd like to see a single piece of evidence to support that. Until then it's just another shot in the dark.

You never cease to amaze me in the way you so confidently KNOW what REALLY happened in a place you've never visited, where you don't even speak any of the languages spoken (so you can't read or watch local media), don't know the culture, and confuse names of languages with geographic locations any fourth grader would know.

Eki

22nd July 2010, 20:49

I'd like to see a single piece of evidence to support that. Until then it's just another shot in the dark.

You never cease to amaze me in the way you so confidently KNOW what REALLY happened in a place you've never visited, where you don't even speak any of the languages spoken (so you can't read or watch local media), don't know the culture, and confuse names of languages with geographic locations any fourth grader would know.
Then tell me a more logical reason why he pleaded guilty. Because he was a stupid Arab is not a valid answer IMO.

Mark in Oshawa

23rd July 2010, 02:46

I am sure there is something to it. He confessed on his own Eki. I know you find this truly hard to believe, but they have a rule of law and a presumption of innocence in that country, unlike all the other regimes that you so assidiously ignore the failings of while attacking Israel in the US. IN short...your rantings are getting old...

Jag_Warrior

23rd July 2010, 16:39

After a few days of much media attention more details seem to be revealed. It seems the man pled guilty to rape charges in a plea bargain, to which the minimum is 4 years inside. The judges noted this is a special case and gave him less. As you may or may not know, once a plea bargain is arranged the judge has no say whether the man is guilty or not and has to punish the defendant as the law dictates.

This seems more complicated than it first appeared, I guess you have to choose your representation wisely. So it seems maybe this isn't a racist matter after all, but rather more of a legal manner.
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3923674,00.html
You can translate it if you wish.

Camelopard, Eki and Jag I think you should all do the right thing and admit you jumped the gun.

Good on you for being on guard though, you made me learn a bit about how the legal system works. I also think there is a lesson to be learnt for every forum goer - choose your lawyer wisely, and pay attention to what you're fessing up to.

With all due respect, of course it's a "legal" matter. But some prosecuting attorney (or whatever that office is called there) had to file charges against him. What I'm asking is, if an Arab girl had waltzed into his office, singing that same silly song, would that same prosecuting attorney have filed similar charges against an Israeli? That's a hypothetical but I think I know the answer: no.

We do have race and gender issues in the U.S. still. I would never claim that we don't. Though it was interesting that you had to reach back 40 or 50 years for your examples. But even in the most redneck parts of the deep south, I can't imagine a White woman being able to successfully claim rape (in court) if she had sex with a Black guy that she thought was White. Now she might make up some story that she'd been raped. But even in a rathole like Pulaski, TN (the armpit of all armpits as far as your redneck/KKK wannabe types go), I don't think she'd be able to use a story as dumb as what that Israeli woman used.

Rani

23rd July 2010, 17:16

With all due respect, of course it's a "legal" matter. But some prosecuting attorney (or whatever that office is called there) had to file charges against him. What I'm asking is, if an Arab girl had waltzed into his office, singing that same silly song, would that same prosecuting attorney have filed similar charges against an Israeli? That's a hypothetical but I think I know the answer: no.
As an american you are probably aware of the power of affirmative action. It works the same way around these parts. A lot of times minorities have this in their favor, so I wouldn't be so sure about your hypothetical situation. There were actually quite a few incidents where arab burglars/thieves who were hurt by home owners whilst trying to steal property sued the owners and won. I wish we could defend like you americans can, as I think anyone should have the right to protect their property from trespassers (from any religion).

Concerning the prosecution, their job is to help their client by all legal means. I believe the woman went for the most extreme charge she could go for out of vengeance, and you can't blame the lawyer for doing their job.

We do have race and gender issues in the U.S. still. I would never claim that we don't. Though it was interesting that you had to reach back 40 or 50 years for your examples. But even in the most redneck parts of the deep south, I can't imagine a White woman being able to successfully claim rape (in court) if she had sex with a Black guy that she thought was White. Now she might make up some story that she'd been raped. But even in a rathole like Pulaski, TN (the armpit of all armpits as far as your redneck/KKK wannabe types go), I don't think she'd be able to use a story as dumb as what that Israeli woman used.

I had to reach back in order to find clearcut cases of state sponsored racism. In these PC days racists are a lot more sophisticated, so cases like in the 1960's are a lot less common, although I'm sure racism is still alive and kicking.
I don't think your black/white analogy is fair. It's pretty hard for an african american to pass as a caucasian and vice versa. Nevertheless if a black man were to plead guilty in a plea bargain what could the jury do? I think a similar thing would happen. Sort of like commiting legal suicide.

Eki

23rd July 2010, 18:55

There were actually quite a few incidents where arab burglars/thieves who were hurt by home owners whilst trying to steal property sued the owners and won.
I'm sure the result would have been the same even if the burglars/thieves hurt had been Jewish. At least here no civilian should hurt ANYBODY while protecting material property, because all human life and limb (even criminal's life and limb) are considered more valuable than any material property. Actually, civilians in general aren't supposed to act as policemen. I remember a case where a shop was burgled and the shop owner went after the burglars, caught them and retained them until the police came. He was charged for holding the burglars as hostage.

Rani

23rd July 2010, 21:40

I'm sure the result would have been the same even if the burglars/thieves hurt had been Jewish.

Probably. I guess there's less discrimination here than you may think.

At least here no civilian should hurt ANYBODY while protecting material property, because all human life and limb (even criminal's life and limb) are considered more valuable than any material property. Actually, civilians in general aren't supposed to act as policemen. I remember a case where a shop was burgled and the shop owner went after the burglars, caught them and retained them until the police came. He was charged for holding the burglars as hostage.
I think charging that shop owner is the complete opposite of justice. Charging him is basically saying crime pays and doesn't deter anyone from turning to crime. Criminals need to be jailed, not hugged and cuddled by a judicial system so forgiving it encourages crime. I think ours is like that, seems like yours is as well.

Do you realize that a lot of the muslim countries you support chop off thieves' arms (not to mention stonings)? I bet it lowers the theft rates, though.

Eki

23rd July 2010, 22:00

I think charging that shop owner is the complete opposite of justice. Charging him is basically saying crime pays and doesn't deter anyone from turning to crime.
No, it says you do your job and let the police do theirs. I don't know if the shop owner realized, but there might have been a chance the burglars were armed and may have killed or injured him when he went after them. The advice the police gives to people who see a robbery is "don't try to be a hero". One Swedish family learnt it the hard way when they went after their stolen bicycle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Fouganthine

On July 3 they arrived in Åmsele. After nightfall Valjakkala stole a bicycle. He was pursued by the owners, Sten Nilsson and his 15-year-old son Fredrik. The chase ended at a cemetery where Sten and Fredrik Nilsson were both shot by Valjakkala with a shotgun. Later Sten's wife and Fredrik's mother, Ewa Nilsson, went looking for the two, was chased into the woods and had her throat slit by Valjakkala outside the cemetery. Valjakkala and Routalammi were caught in Odense, Denmark just over a week later.

Eki

23rd July 2010, 22:12

Do you realize that a lot of the muslim countries you support chop off thieves' arms (not to mention stonings)?
I don't support them. I just don't attack them as hard as many others do. There's a difference. If Israel was treated as harshly as for example Iran or Iraq are/were, I might even put some good word for Israel too. For the time being, I think there are double standards in how Israel is treated and how some Muslim countries are treated by the US and the UN.

Jag_Warrior

23rd July 2010, 22:29

As an american you are probably aware of the power of affirmative action. It works the same way around these parts. A lot of times minorities have this in their favor, so I wouldn't be so sure about your hypothetical situation. There were actually quite a few incidents where arab burglars/thieves who were hurt by home owners whilst trying to steal property sued the owners and won. I wish we could defend like you americans can, as I think anyone should have the right to protect their property from trespassers (from any religion).

The U.S. is not the Wild West environment that many non-Americans think it is. A homeowner in New York, John White, was just convicted of manslaughter after killing one of the thugs in a mob outside of his house. And even in my state (very much on the side of the home/property owner), unless someone is inside your home, you better be very careful how you defend yourself. I've read stories of Israeli "settlers" carrying Uzis during so called patrols. No where in the U.S. could a citizen carry such a weapon "on patrol"... even on their own land.

Concerning the prosecution, their job is to help their client by all legal means. I believe the woman went for the most extreme charge she could go for out of vengeance, and you can't blame the lawyer for doing their job.

Maybe that's a key difference between our two systems. Here the prosecution is not a victim's advocate. The accuser is not the client of the prosecution here. The prosecuting attorney/DA/Commonwealth's Attorney represents the state. And the accuser has absolutely NO SAY in what charges the state finally decides to file, if any. The only place an accuser has a private attorney/advocate here is in civil court. And in that circumstance, the only possible penalty is money damages.

I had to reach back in order to find clearcut cases of state sponsored racism. In these PC days racists are a lot more sophisticated, so cases like in the 1960's are a lot less common, although I'm sure racism is still alive and kicking.

Yes, racism is still alive. So are a lot of other "ism's". But as you said, you would have to go back nearly half a century to find clear examples of something as clear cut and goofy as this case.

I don't think your black/white analogy is fair. It's pretty hard for an african american to pass as a caucasian and vice versa. Nevertheless if a black man were to plead guilty in a plea bargain what could the jury do? I think a similar thing would happen. Sort of like commiting legal suicide.

My example is actually a good one, once you consider how we define (or used to define) race here (in the south). For instance, Barack Obama has a White mother and a Black father. But most consider him Black. He looks Black. But I'm aware of a kid who also has a Black father and a White mother and he looks like a tanned White person... maybe Italian or Hispanic. He didn't know his father and hadn't been told the family secret. When he was going to marry a White girl, her family found out about his situation and there were some hard feelings on both sides for awhile. An old friend of mine photographed their wedding, so things did work out. But I guess in Israel, her family could have run to the police and filed rape charges against him for posing as a White person and having relations with their daughter. Crazy! :rolleyes:

Rani

23rd July 2010, 22:29

I don't support them. I just don't attack them as hard as many others do. There's a difference. If Israel was treated as harshly as for example Iran or Iraq are/were, I might even put some good word for Israel too. For the time being, I think there are double standards in how Israel is treated and how some Muslim countries are treated by the US and the UN.
This is a serious sidetrack, but how do you explain the fact the UN has commisioned 2 inquiries against Israel over the last year while Turkey has killed 40000 people over the last 26 years, hundreds if not thousands over the last few months. The UN is doing nothing against the tens dead every week in the turkish-kurd struggle. I haven't seen a single post concerning turkish military actions against the Kurdish population. How come no one mentions the armenian genocide?

Double standard? you bet.

Rani

23rd July 2010, 22:39

But I guess in Israel, her family could have run to the police and filed rape charges against him for posing as a White person and having relations with their daughter. Crazy! :rolleyes:
Aren't you jumping to conclusions? Judging an entire country based on a single event isn't wise in my opinion.

Wouldn't I look foolish if I were to judge the whole US based on the case of Hurricane Carter ?

Eki

23rd July 2010, 22:49

This is a serious sidetrack, but how do you explain the fact the UN has commisioned 2 inquiries against Israel over the last year while Turkey has killed 40000 people over the last 26 years, hundreds if not thousands over the last few months. The UN is doing nothing against the tens dead every week in the turkish-kurd struggle. I haven't seen a single post concerning turkish military actions against the Kurdish population. How come no one mentions the armenian genocide?

Double standard? you bet.
But no sanctions or Security Council resolutions against Israel yet, and Turkey doesn't have nuclear weapons.

Jag_Warrior

23rd July 2010, 22:59

Aren't you jumping to conclusions? Judging an entire country based on a single event isn't wise in my opinion.

Wouldn't I look foolish if I were to judge the whole US based on the case of Hurricane Carter ?

I take it you've watched the movie with Denzel Washington. Good movie. But it followed the facts of that case about as well as the movie he starred in about Frank Lucas (American Gangster). To this day, the only person who (really) knows if Rubin Carter is innocent or guilty of murder is Rubin Carter.

Accurate or not, yes, it is my perception that an Arab in Israel has about the same chances of being treated fairly as a Black or a Jew in the American south in the 1930's-50's (and before). My guess is that's why most of the examples you're giving are from roughly that time period. As I agreed with you, we do still have issues with race here. Some people in the U.S. have a real obsession with race. But institutional racism is something that I think we've done a rather good job of addressing.

Rani

23rd July 2010, 23:42

No, it says you do your job and let the police do theirs. I don't know if the shop owner realized, but there might have been a chance the burglars were armed and may have killed or injured him when he went after them. The advice the police gives to people who see a robbery is "don't try to be a hero". One Swedish family learnt it the hard way when they went after their stolen bicycle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Fouganthine
It seems this guy, regarded as a psychopath, killed 3 people in cold blood over a bicycle, escaped jail 4 times, took a hostage, broke his release terms, stole a car, drove without a license and was released after all that...

Writing his autobiography now, he'll probably gain fame and fortune from his ways.
It seems if one wants to become rich and famous in Finland, all he has to do is commit some heinous crimes, rest in prison whilst regularly trying to break out in order to keep in the headlines and then write a book once they are free.

Not exactly model penal and judicial systems you have there IMHO.

Accurate or not, yes, it is my perception that an Arab in Israel has about the same chances of being treated fairly as a Black or a Jew in the American south in the 1930's-50's (and before). My guess is that's why most of the examples you're giving are from roughly that time period. As I agreed with you, we do still have issues with race here. Some people in the U.S. have a real obsession with race. But institutional racism is something that I think we've done a rather good job of addressing

I actually think an arab has the same chances of being treated fairly as an african american or a jew in the American south today. Not just arabs for that matter, any minority.

ShiftingGears

24th July 2010, 03:56

It seems this guy, regarded as a psychopath, killed 3 people in cold blood over a bicycle, escaped jail 4 times, took a hostage, broke his release terms, stole a car, drove without a license and was released after all that...

That is a joke. The fact that he was released is completely unjustifiable.

Eki

24th July 2010, 09:16

Writing his autobiography now, he'll probably gain fame and fortune from his ways.
It seems if one wants to become rich and famous in Finland, all he has to do is commit some heinous crimes, rest in prison whilst regularly trying to break out in order to keep in the headlines and then write a book once they are free.

I don't know anyone who has become rich and famous in Finland by writing an autobiography, the number of potential buyers is quite low. And he already became famous (or infamous) already when he committed that triple murder.

Rani

24th July 2010, 09:50

I don't know anyone who has become rich and famous in Finland by writing an autobiography, the number of potential buyers is quite low. And he already became famous (or infamous) already when he committed that triple murder.
He's already got a movie deal and I've got a feeling he's quite well known in Sweden as well, so that makes the number of buyers bigger.

Eki

24th July 2010, 09:54

He's already got a movie deal and I've got a feeling he's quite well known in Sweden as well, so that makes the number of buyers bigger.
Probably didn't get much for the movie deal. And the total population of Finland and Sweden together is still under 15 million. He probably didn't get anything, because his name was changed to Jari. The film maker just took the story, not the people in it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_Capitano:_A_Swedish_Requiem

Drew

25th July 2010, 21:54

This kind of thing happens throughout the world, just in different ways. In the UK a story that seems to happen a bit is that girls get incredibly drunk and do stupid things and then regret it the day after and cry rape. Which takes away the seriousness of vilent rape cases.

However this law seems even more open to abuse, in order to protect "innocent" jewish women that make mistakes...

Rani

25th July 2010, 23:34

Drew

25th July 2010, 23:59

What law are you talking about? The guy plead guilty and agreed to a plea bargain.

"Rape by deception"

Of course he pleaded guilty, in reality he had no option. How many years would he have been sentenced to if he hadn't pleaded guilty?

Camelopard

26th July 2010, 02:20

His side of the story:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/saber-kushour-rape-deception-charge

"Kushour speaks fluent, unaccented Hebrew, as do many Palestinians living and working in Jerusalem. The woman asked his name and Kushour replied "Dudu" – a common Israeli name. "Since I was a kid everyone calls me Dudu – even my wife calls me Dudu. It's a nickname."

"At no point, he says, did the woman – who gave her name as Maya – ask if he was Jewish,"

Drew

26th July 2010, 02:30

Rani

26th July 2010, 08:12

"Rape by deception"

Of course he pleaded guilty, in reality he had no option. How many years would he have been sentenced to if he hadn't pleaded guilty?
You guys elegantly ignore the fact that the judge's only task in this case was to set the punishment. Once a plea bargain is agreed by both sides the judge has no say in whether it happened or not. The article avoids this matter is well.
Drew, can you back your prejudiced claim he had no option and would have gotten much worse if he hadn't pleaded guilty?
If not, how can you throw alligations like that around without having a clue what you're talking about?
You probably read 50 words in some paper and all of the sudden you're an expert on international law.

Camelopard

26th July 2010, 22:42

.....without having a clue what you're talking about?
You probably read 50 words in some paper and all of the sudden you're an expert on international law. (my editing)

Could be said about many posters on this forum............... :)

Drew

26th July 2010, 23:29

You guys elegantly ignore the fact that the judge's only task in this case was to set the punishment. Once a plea bargain is agreed by both sides the judge has no say in whether it happened or not. The article avoids this matter is well.
Drew, can you back your prejudiced claim he had no option and would have gotten much worse if he hadn't pleaded guilty?
If not, how can you throw alligations like that around without having a clue what you're talking about?
You probably read 50 words in some paper and all of the sudden you're an expert on international law.

So you're honestly telling me that if he hadn't pleaded guilty, he would have been found innocent? or that he would have even stood the possibility of being found innocent? Are you telling me that if it was a muslim woman that slept with a Jewish man without knowing he was Jewish, the law would still apply and he would be found guilty of rape by deception?

Perhaps these a-rabs should walk around with something sewed on their clothes, so people don't get confused. That'll go down well.

Rani

27th July 2010, 10:53

So you're honestly telling me that if he hadn't pleaded guilty, he would have been found innocent? or that he would have even stood the possibility of being found innocent?
Absolutely. Of course you won't go and look up israeli court verdicts, because you won't let facts confuse you. The fact is the legal system treats minorities just as equally as any country you'd call 'enlightened'.

Are you telling me that if it was a muslim woman that slept with a Jewish man without knowing he was Jewish, the law would still apply and he would be found guilty of rape by deception?

He wasn't 'found' guilty, he admitted to it (for the millionth time). That was his decision to make. I don't think he would have been found guilty if he were to hire himself a decent attorney, of course rape in the traditional term didn't take place here. The judge actually did what he could to go easy on him, the shortest sentence for rape that a judge can rule once a person is found guilty is twice what he got.

What makes you think that if a jew admitted to rape and agreed to a plea bargain the judge would overrule? The judge CAN'T overrule a plea bargain no matter who made it. Had it been a jew the same thing would have happened.

I mean what makes you think that other than knee-jerk anti israeli prejudiced views?

Perhaps these a-rabs should walk around with something sewed on their clothes, so people don't get confused. That'll go down well.
A-rabs is a demeaning term you english speakers invented. I have never heard it being said in hebrew. If you don't mean to demean arabs why do you use it?

BTW that inciting tone comparing arabs to jews in the Holocaust is exactly that- inciting. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
May I also ask how many afghan muslims your country has killed over the last few years? You also had a major part in the hundreds of thousands killed in Iraq didn't you?

I'd run over to the nearest pharmacy and get a band aid for your bleeding heart.

Eki

27th July 2010, 11:50

He wasn't 'found' guilty, he admitted to it (for the millionth time).
In civilized countries admitting isn't enough, they also require proof of your guilt, because there are people with mental health problems who go to the police and confess crimes they haven't committed or someone may confess crimes for someone else (for money or to protect the guilty one). Furthermore, in this case no crime happened IMO, so it's irrelevant if he admitted to an imaginary crime. It's quite bizarre that you can be convicted for something that wasn't a crime.

Rani

27th July 2010, 12:00

In civilized countries admitting isn't enough, they also require proof of your guilt, because there are people with mental health problems who go to the police and confess crimes they haven't committed or someone may confess crimes for someone else (for money or to protect the guilty one). Furthermore, in this case no crime happened IMO, so it's irrelevant if he admitted to an imaginary crime. It's quite bizarre that you can be convicted for something that wasn't a crime.
Plea bargains are widespread across the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea_bargain
Maybe you don't consider France, Italy, Germany, USA and Canada 'civilized'.

I think it's quite bizarre a person can kill 3 people in cold blood, escape prison a few times, steal cars and get out after less than twenty years...

Eki

27th July 2010, 13:25

Plea bargains are widespread across the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea_bargain
Maybe you don't consider France, Italy, Germany, USA and Canada 'civilized'.

Not the US, I don't. They have among other things death penalty like some 3rd World countries and also other peculiarities in their legal system. And as it seems, the US is the only country where plea bargains are common place without controversy. Italy is a border line case, they have for example Berlusconi. As for the others:

The introduction of a limited form of plea bargaining (comparution sur reconnaissance préalable de culpabilité or CRPC, often summarized as plaider coupable) was highly controversial in France. In this system, the public prosecutor could propose to suspects of relatively minor crimes a penalty not exceeding one year in prison; the deal, if accepted, had to be accepted by a judge. Opponents, most specifically attorneys and left-wing parties, argued that plea bargaining would gravely infringe on the rights of defense, the long-standing constitutional right of presumption of innocence, the rights of suspects in police custody, and the right to a fair trial.

Plea agreements have made a limited appearance in Germany. However, there is no exact equivalent of a guilty plea in German criminal procedure.

In Canada the courts always have the final say with regards to sentencing.

In general, plea bargains seem quite barbarian:

Plea bargaining is criticized, particularly outside the United States, on the grounds that its close relationship with rewards, threats and coercion potentially endangers the correct legal outcome. Coercive plea bargaining has been criticized on the grounds that it infringes an individual's rights under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, incorporated in the UK's Human Rights Act 1998.

That's exactly what seems to have happened in this case.

Malbec

28th July 2010, 01:30

So you're honestly telling me that if he hadn't pleaded guilty, he would have been found innocent? or that he would have even stood the possibility of being found innocent? Are you telling me that if it was a muslim woman that slept with a Jewish man without knowing he was Jewish, the law would still apply and he would be found guilty of rape by deception?

Perhaps these a-rabs should walk around with something sewed on their clothes, so people don't get confused. That'll go down well.

Just a brief pop-in on my part.

I see some guys are claiming that this judgement proves that Israelis are racist. It does not. It proves that the woman is racist, nothing more. In fact neither of the two parties involved comes out of this well, he cheated on his wife at the slightest temptation and she sounds like she is slightly loose to say the least.

Lets get one thing straight, this is an absurd law and no Israeli should defend it. Taken literally this law criminalises just about every guy and girl in Israel. Can YOU honestly claim you were honest with every partner you've been with? Maybe the next guy will go to prison for claiming he had a Ferrari when he has a FIAT. The previous guy got imprisoned for claiming he was a neurosurgeon (Jew on Jew btw). But lets get another thing straight. Israel has lots of absurd laws. Every single country does. In Britain I can force a girl and get off scott free if I can prove that her partner or friend had told me that she'd be happy having sex with me. Her consent and resistance is irrelevant. There is a legal precedent for this set in the 70s. I can also kill a Welshman in Chester at the city walls for free too, as long as I do it before midnight with a longbow. Again another real British law.

Does Israel have more absurd laws than others? I'd say probably but not because Israelis are more savage than the rest of us as some have suggested here, but more because I believe Israel generates fewer test cases because it has a far far smaller population than other countries, and therefore there is less opportunity to rectify absurd laws. The legal system is like a machine, it has to be well designed but even then it will have plenty of flaws. These need to be ironed out with plenty of testing. With a machine thats done behind closed doors, with a legal system its tested on the general public. Like all machines though, legal systems can be tweaked to suit the changing needs of the market. This is a law that might have somehow made sense in 1948 but doesn't now and needs to be changed.

What will define whether Israel is racist is the reaction to this case. If people feel that the arab got what he deserved then yes it is, if people recognise the absurdity of the law then it isn't. There is a lot of debate in Israel and it seems as if opinion is split down the middle.

I find St Devote's post rather sad. There is no higher moral purpose in his post other than mere survival. Nothing that differentiates his ambition from that of a cockroach or a wild dog. I find it particularly sad that when Israel was created 60 years ago with its survival truly at risk, the founders didn't just aim for survival, they had far higher aims with the establishment of a truly democratic state and respect for human rights. Now that Israel's security is ensured with nuclear weapons and utter conventional superiority many Israelis seem to have paradoxically lowered their sights to merely surviving. I like to think that Israelis aspire to a higher moral standard than that.

And that is reflected in some of the other things happening in Israel that are far more disturbing than this judgement. Ashkenazi Jews campaigning with quite a bit of support for getting their kids segregated at school. Not from Arab kids mind, but from other Jews from the Middle East. Plans going through parliament that would severely curtail Israeli human rights and a plan to force Arabs to pledge allegiance to a Jewish Israeli state, an abandonment of Israel's superficial claim to be secular. A refusal to take any criticism regarding the behaviour of their armed forces to the point that even Jewish commentators are labelled as anti-semitic, however violent the transgression.

There are bigger reasons why Israelis should care. American politicians are asking why they should pay so much money to support Israel when they're cutting back on spending on Americans. Israel's USP is that it is democratic and is America's staunchest ally in the ME. Problem is that general after general, diplomat after diplomat is reporting back that Israel's failure to resolve things with Palestinians is stoking up resentment which is often taken out on US troops. Israel is blocking any reconciliation and is therefore costing US lives. What worth is an alliance with Israel? When was the last time US troops launched an attack from Israel? When did they get supplied from Israel? Israel is currently a strategic hindrance not a help. If Israel then sets about making itself less democratic what need is there left for the US to assist them?

As for the old right wing thing about comparing Israel with arab countries no arab country (with the possible exception of Lebanon) sells itself as worthy of support purely because it is democratic. Nor do Israelis particularly care for or are interested in what their neighbours do. They look westwards at Europe and the US for inspiration.

[Edit, sorry just realised that St Devote's post that I refer to is in another thread]

Drew

29th July 2010, 01:17

Absolutely. Of course you won't go and look up israeli court verdicts, because you won't let facts confuse you. The fact is the legal system treats minorities just as equally as any country you'd call 'enlightened'.

There is no law in the UK that states somebody may prosecute somebody for rape, on the grounds of not knowing their actual religion.

He wasn't 'found' guilty, he admitted to it (for the millionth time). That was his decision to make. I don't think he would have been found guilty if he were to hire himself a decent attorney, of course rape in the traditional term didn't take place here. The judge actually did what he could to go easy on him, the shortest sentence for rape that a judge can rule once a person is found guilty is twice what he got.

In the UK at least, if you plead not guilty and are found guilty, you will normally get a heavier sentence than if you plead not guilty. This is what he has done in order to receive a "kinder" sentence.

What makes you think that if a jew admitted to rape and agreed to a plea bargain the judge would overrule? The judge CAN'T overrule a plea bargain no matter who made it. Had it been a jew the same thing would have happened.

I mean what makes you think that other than knee-jerk anti israeli prejudiced views?

If a Jew commits traditional rape in Israel, I would hope and expect that s/he would be sentenced too. My doubt is whether a Jew would be sentenced due to rape by deception.

A-rabs is a demeaning term you english speakers invented. I have never heard it being said in hebrew. If you don't mean to demean arabs why do you use it?

BTW that inciting tone comparing arabs to jews in the Holocaust is exactly that- inciting. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
May I also ask how many afghan muslims your country has killed over the last few years? You also had a major part in the hundreds of thousands killed in Iraq didn't you?

I'd run over to the nearest pharmacy and get a band aid for your bleeding heart.

I don't speak Hebrew and even if I did, I could hardly use Hebrew words that are demeaning towards Arabs to create the same effect.

I would have expected that the Israeli state all things considered, would have a more positive policy on religious matters and differences.

Now you are assuming that I supported either war in Iraq and Afghanistan which I did not.