Honda Indy Edmonton

[DanicaFan]

Race 11 of 17

Race - Honda Indy Edmonton

Location - Edmonton City Centre Airport, Edmonton, Alberta Canada

Date - Sunday, July 25th

Time & TV Schedule - 5:00PM Eastern -Green Flag -5:55PM Eastern -Versus

Course Type - 1.96 Mile Airport Course

Distance - 95 Laps / 186.2 Miles

Practice Sessions - Friday, July 23rd - 1:30-2:30PM Eastern & 4:45-5:45PM Eastern - Saturday, July 24th - 12:15PM - 1:15PM Eastern

Qualifications - Saturday, July 24th - 5:30PM - 6:50PM Eastern

2009 Pole Sitter - Will Power -Lap Time - 1:01.0133 / Speed - 116.414mph

2009 Winner - Will Power

**Note - All Times listed in Eastern Time, Edmonton is 2 hours behind Eastern time.

[DanicaFan]

Here is a map of the track layout..

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/edmontontrack.jpg

[DanicaFan]

2009 Race Summary

Lap Stats - Total Laps - 95, Green Flag Laps - 92 , Caution Laps - 3

Race Stats - Time - 1:42:42 , Avg. Speed - 109.488

Lead Changes - 5 among 4 drivers

Best Lap - #24 Mike Conway - Lap 39- 113.765mph (62.4340sec.)

[DavePI2]

say df, looking forward to seeing your favorite driver at midohio in a couple of weeks. Now will she have another top ten this week in edmonton?This last sunday while going up ohio rt.314 to the ama races I swear I passed a couple of amish bugy's that were going faster then milka.

david

[DanicaFan]

say df, looking forward to seeing your favorite driver at midohio in a couple of weeks. Now will she have another top ten this week in edmonton?This last sunday while going up ohio rt.314 to the ama races I swear I passed a couple of amish bugy's that were going faster then milka.

david

I think she will have another top 10. I will be at Mid-Ohio this year again.

[beachgirl]

I think she will have another top 10. I will be at Mid-Ohio this year again.

Thanks for a reasonable, realistic post about this coming weekend. I would agree she has a real chance to end up top 10, or thereabouts. :)

[chuck34]

I think she will have another top 10. I will be at Mid-Ohio this year again.

Everyone mark this down!

A REALISTIC PREDICTION FROM DANICAFAN!!!!! Shout it from the rooftops! Good job man. Keep this up, and maybe we'll take you a bit more seriously. :)

[TURN3]

hip hip.....hooray!

[Mark in Oshawa]

DF...we love ya, and we don't often degree, but in this one, you are being realistic. That is all we ask for...

I think Danica might get a top 10 here as well.....

I like Edmonton...but I still wish they bookended the race in Toronto with the old Cleveland airport circuit. For some reason, that airport circuit put on some spectacular shows...

[TURN3]

While a top 10 is a realistic expectation for Princess Wonder Racer...let's not forget this race has historically very few yellows...including last year where it basically went flag to flag. Not exactly her type of race to finish high. We shall see, with 2 professional drivers to build on, AA has certainly been getting a little more dialed in on their setups.

[DavePI2]

well good to hear of another visitor to my favorite track. Hope to meet you there df on friday. Just look for the guy wearing ohio bobcat gear who looks like john mccain(my nickname at work is Senator).

david

[SUBARUTEAM]

Will and Dario will be hard to beat

[Redstorm]

DF...we love ya, and we don't often degree, but in this one, you are being realistic. That is all we ask for...

I think Danica might get a top 10 here as well.....

I like Edmonton...but I still wish they bookended the race in Toronto with the old Cleveland airport circuit. For some reason, that airport circuit put on some spectacular shows...
Agreed, Cleveland was always one of my favorites back in the day......

[DanicaFan]

I think Edmonton is probably the ugliest track on the circuit.

[controlledchaos]

I think Edmonton is probably the ugliest track on the circuit.

Perfect for the ugliest cars on the planet then.

[DanicaFan]

Perfect for the ugliest cars on the planet then.

I dont know why people say that. I think they look good. Much better than those hideous F1 cars.

[SarahFan]

I think the track is awesome ..... The cars look fast at Edmonton

[DanicaFan]

Here is the entry list for this race, 25 cars entered..

Car# & Driver / Car Name / Team

#2 Raphael Matos / HP Luczo Dragon / De Ferran Dragon Racing
#3 Helio Castroneves / Team Penske / Team Penske
#4 Dan Wheldon / National Guard Panther Racing / Panther Racing
#5 Takuma Sato / Lotus-KV Racing Technology / KV Racing Technology
#6 Ryan Briscoe / Team Penske / Team Penske
#7 Danica Patrick / Team GoDaddy.com / Andretti Autosport
#8 EJ Viso / PDVSA-Jet Aviation-KVRT / KV Racing Technology
#9 Scott Dixon / Target Chip Ganassi Racing / Target Chip Ganassi Racing
#10 Dario Franchitti / Target Chip Ganassi Racing / Target Chip Ganassi Racing
#11 Tony Kanaan / Team 7-Eleven / Andretti Autosport
#12 Will Power / Verizon Team Penske / Verizon Team Penske
#14 Vitor Meira / ABC Supply Co. AJ Foyt Racing / AJ Foyt Enterprises
#15 Paul Tracy / Make-A-Wish- KVRT / KV Racing Technology
#18 Milka Duno / CITGO / Dale Coyne Racing
#19 Alex Lloyd / Boy Scouts of America / Dale Coyne Racing
#22 Justin Wilson / Team Z-Line Designs-DRR / Dreyer & Reinbold Racing
#24 Tomas Scheckter / MonaVie-DRR / Dreyer & Reinbold Racing
#26 Marco Andretti / Team Venom Energy / Andretti Autosport
#32 Mario Moraes / KV Racing Technology / KV Racing Technology
#34 Mario Romancini / Conquest Racing / Conquest Racing
#36 Bertrand Baguette / Conquest Racing-RACB / Conquest Racing
#37 Ryan Hunter-Reay / Team IZOD / Andretti Autosport
#77 Alex Tagliani / Bower&Wilkins-Hot Wheels / FAZZT Race Team
#78 Simona De Silvestro / Team Stargate Worlds-HVM / HVM Racing
#06 Hideki Mutoh / Formula Dream-Panasonic / Newman Haas Racing

[Easy Drifter]

Severe Thunderstorm watch, possible tornadoes for Edmonton area tonight and tomorrow! :eek:

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think Edmonton is probably the ugliest track on the circuit.


What makes it ugly? If your driver actually won this race, you would demand the IRL race there 4 times a summer!!!

It is a working Airport, and by the standards of say Cleveland or other airport circuits, you cant say Edmonton is ugly at all. It has wide sections yet the winding turns leaving the S/F straight are like a traditional road course. More narrow...but a talented driver can maybe sneak in and steal a corner.

In short, it requires some thought and brains to make a pass here, despite the runway sections where you can be 5 wide...because in the end, you have to funnel in and figure it out.

It is amazing to me though to hear this statement from someone who figures the IRL should only do ovals because HIS driver doesn't like road courses. Well whup-de-do......

To each their own...I can enjoy all forms of tracks, from Oval to short track oval to road/street to the airports. That is what made CART so popular in the late 80's and early 90's and should keep the fans we still have in the IRL. Everyone gets their day in the sun....and the driver who wins the championship will be the one who best adapts to all the tracks.

[DanicaFan]

Here are the pit assignments..

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/edmontonpits.jpg

[DanicaFan]

The forecast for Edmonton is..

Today - Partly Cloudy - 77 degrees
Tonight - 70% chance of rain - 52 degrees
Tomorrow(practice) - 60% chance of rain - 73 degrees

[SUBARUTEAM]

who would you back in the rain? it will make qualifing very important.

[beachbum]

who would you back in the rain? it will make qualifing very important.Wilson, but rain could really scramble the results and there could be some surprises. I hope KV has LOTS of parts

[Mark in Oshawa]

Rain? The great equalizer and the guys who are masters at car control and have experience with it will step up. Will Power, Helio, Dario and Dixon wont be any worse for the rain, but I do think Tags, PT, Justin Wilson and the like will be more in the mix for sure. A team gets the wet setup wrong, we could see some real different names up front...

[DanicaFan]

The chance of rain lessens as the weekend gets closer. There is a good chance at getting the qualifying in under dry conditions.

[DanicaFan]

Here is a lap around the track at Edmonton with Tony Kanaan...

HWc1ytb6yps&feature=sub&videos=-arh0weJ3xY

[DanicaFan]

Good news on the weather...Edmonton is calling for Mostly Sunny and 77 degrees on Saturday for qualifying!

[Alfa Fan]

Only a fan of Danica would see the lack of rain to spice up qualifying a good thing.

[DanicaFan]

Here are practice session 1 times..

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/edmonton1.jpg

[TURN3]

PT looks pretty strong from the timesheet...leading the highly talented yet worthless crew of professionals KV employs full-time too. Not bad for part time. If only....

[DanicaFan]

PT looks pretty strong from the timesheet...leading the highly talented yet worthless crew of professionals KV employs full-time too. Not bad for part time. If only....

It's the same car from last week so Im not sure why he was so slow at Toronto.

[TURN3]

It's the same car from last week so Im not sure why he was so slow at Toronto.

They found the rear suspension geometries were off after Sat qualifying...which explains why he was so fast in the race by comparison. It is in his Racer blog.

Don't quote me on this but his fast lap from the race would've put him somewhere around 10th on the starting grid...in race trim. Too bad they didn't figure it out sooner.

[DanicaFan]

Here are the qualifying groups for tomorrow..

Group 1

#2 Raphael Matos
#3 Helio Castroneves
#5 Takuma Sato
#6 Ryan Briscoe
#7 Danica Patrick
#10 Dario Franchitti
#12 Will Power
#14 Vitor Meira
#15 Paul Tracy
#18 Milka Duno
#22 Justin Wilson
#34 Mario Romancini
#77 Alex Tagliani

Group 2

#4 Dan Wheldon
#8 EJ Viso
#9 Scott Dixon
#11 Tony Kanaan
#19 Alex Lloyd
#24 Tomas Scheckter
#26 Marco Andretti
#32 Mario Moraes
#36 Bertrand Baguette
#37 Ryan Hunter-Reay
#78 Simona De Silvestro
#06 Hideki Mutoh

[MDS]

PT looks pretty strong from the timesheet...leading the highly talented yet worthless crew of professionals KV employs full-time too. Not bad for part time. If only....

Actually all four KV cars were in the top 12 in practice, not bad. I've said it before and I'll say it again, KV is a good squad, but their luck has just been horrible, and they've had a lot of growing pains. They went from a solid, if somewhat underfunded, one-car team to a three car team in which all their deals came together late, and they're starting to show some speed. We all know the Dallara has had some quality issues and they've gone through five new cars this year and this chassis is something that you need to spend a lot of time with in order to find the sweet spot. They got through Toronto without losing a tub, and that's got to be like the second or third time that's happened.

If they can start stringing together races where all of their guys finish I think you'll see them get Mario and EJ up into top 10 and get Sato Rookie honors.

From what I hear they're close to getting deals together for Sato for next year with Lotus and they're already talking with E.J. for next year, and if that happens they can start to build to the future. Remember, since KV started its only had the same driver in the same car twice full time, Jimmy Vasser in 2003-2004, and Mario's rather late deal in 2009-2010. Yes that's largely been because they've chosen to use a lot of ride buyers, but the Lotus deal may give them enough funding to get some consistency. If they can keep keep this group together, or just Takuma and bring in a free agent like Justin Wilson (Jimmy and Justin have been seen talking to each other a couple of times and rumors are that Lotus might brand two cars next year and would like an English driver.) for next year I think you'll start to see them living up to their potential.

[TURN3]

Here are the qualifying groups for tomorrow..

Group 1

#2 Raphael Matos
#3 Helio Castroneves
#5 Takuma Sato
#6 Ryan Briscoe
#7 Danica Patrick
#10 Dario Franchitti
#12 Will Power
#14 Vitor Meira
#15 Paul Tracy
#18 Milka Duno
#22 Justin Wilson
#34 Mario Romancini
#77 Alex Tagliani

Group 2

#4 Dan Wheldon
#8 EJ Viso
#9 Scott Dixon
#11 Tony Kanaan
#19 Alex Lloyd
#24 Tomas Scheckter
#26 Marco Andretti
#32 Mario Moraes
#36 Bertrand Baguette
#37 Ryan Hunter-Reay
#78 Simona De Silvestro
#06 Hideki Mutoh

So there is 1 spot available for PT, Tag, or Matos to advance...sweet. A group with Franchitti, Power, and Wilson...plus those other 2 Penske's is as stacked as any 1 group has been as long as I can remember.

[DanicaFan]

Excluding Duno, Group 1 is pretty strong. Im thinking she may not be allowed to qualify like last week judging by practice so far.

[TURN3]

Actually all four KV cars were in the top 12 in practice, not bad. I've said it before and I'll say it again, KV is a good squad, but their luck has just been horrible, and they've had a lot of growing pains. They went from a solid, if somewhat underfunded, one-car team to a three car team in which all their deals came together late, and they're starting to show some speed. We all know the Dallara has had some quality issues and they've gone through five new cars this year and this chassis is something that you need to spend a lot of time with in order to find the sweet spot. They got through Toronto without losing a tub, and that's got to be like the second or third time that's happened.

If they can start stringing together races where all of their guys finish I think you'll see them get Mario and EJ up into top 10 and get Sato Rookie honors.

From what I hear they're close to getting deals together for Sato for next year with Lotus and they're already talking with E.J. for next year, and if that happens they can start to build to the future. Remember, since KV started its only had the same driver in the same car twice full time, Jimmy Vasser in 2003-2004, and Mario's rather late deal in 2009-2010. Yes that's largely been because they've chosen to use a lot of ride buyers, but the Lotus deal may give them enough funding to get some consistency. If they can keep keep this group together for next year I think you'll start to see them living up to their potential.

I agree with you as far as KV having a good team put together....except for 1 fundamental issue...THE DRIVERS! You can have the best engineers and mechanics in the world but those 3 full-timers are less than to be desired no matter how you look at it. Yes, they've had a ton of bad luck...named Moraes, Sato, and sometimes Viso. Put PT in full-time with a 2nd driver of choice and they'll be contenders.

[DanicaFan]

Wow! Will Power is unreal. Here are the results of practice session 2..

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/edmonton2.jpg

[harvick#1]

well, DF.

Power did dominate this race last year, leading just about everylap of the event in brute force.

[beachgirl]

Excluding Duno, Group 1 is pretty strong. Im thinking she may not be allowed to qualify like last week judging by practice so far.

We can only hope.

[Easy Drifter]

Wether it is IC's decision or Coyne's there is absolutely no point in her going out to qualify. Everybody, including her, has to know she will be last by a long way.
The only question is will her official retirement be handling or brakes. Maybe even tranny. I called it with handling in TO.
I guess they have to let her finish the season for political/PR reasons but I expect she will be gone by next year like Marty was.
I just hope she does not cause a big one first.
Being an ex wrench I really feel sorry for the guys who have to prepare her car. There is just no incentive, except for professional pride, to work for someone that bad. It has to be demoralizing.
I worked a couple of races for one of Fred Opert's FB drivers in the late 60's who admitted he just wanted to be in a pro race. This was before Fred only ran relatively good shoes. By part way through the 2nd race I couldn't even be bothered giving him pit signals. I did keep records but he didn't even look at them.
He was hopeless, didn't care and I quickly didn't either.
I left after 2 races.

[DanicaFan]

Mario Romancini showing some speed early... :confused:

[SarahFan]

Mario Romancini showing some speed early... :confused:


how about simona in p10.....not too bad eh

[DanicaFan]

how about simona in p10.....not too bad eh

Yep, the girl is on it!

[SarahFan]

whats the opposite of mastered?

[beachgirl]

whats the opposite of mastered?

Regressed?

[SarahFan]

AA not showing alot of speed this morning...

Wilson struggleing

how about hedeki.....p4 pretty impressive, we will see if stands...or if can improve a tic


love this track.....racers really hang it out there

[SarahFan]

note to the web guys:

add a clock/ticker up by the flag on the video and T7S scoreing screen so we know how much time is left

[SarahFan]

wilson on the move.... up to p7

[DanicaFan]

Wilson is finding his speed again.

[SarahFan]

wilson p4

[DanicaFan]

I was glad to see Danica get over 112mph again. :)

[SarahFan]

9 min togo.... we should see some times change

[DanicaFan]

Sato cant keep it on the track, he sucks!

[TURN3]

whats the opposite of mastered?

Danica?

[SarahFan]

mark my words.....a yellow will effect a qualifying session today.....look for a top guy or two to get caught out without laying down a flyer....

tomorows starting grid is going to have a few suprises...

[SarahFan]

Sato cant keep it on the track, he sucks!

yet almost a second faster than Danica

your thoughts?

[beachgirl]

Sato cant keep it on the track, he sucks!

Can't be beat for entertainment value though. IIRC, he usually doesn't take anyone with him, just causes caution after caution. He certainly is exuberant in his driving. I just wish he'd learn to keep it on the track.

[SarahFan]

holy crap....less than a minute and power and briscoe jump to 1 and 2..... then helio lays down a flyer to jump back to p1



*or was that just a glitch in T&S?

[DanicaFan]

Here are the final results of practice session 3..

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/edmonton3.jpg

[TURN3]

The 3 Penske guys each got one final run...they're not .5 faster but still impressive. What's more impressive is Part Time PT running top 5 to top 10 in each session so far. It is an absolute travesty that we fans have missed 3 full seasons of watching the entertainment value he brings to the series. Meanwhile we get Sato, Viso, Moraes, and the like. That is the way it is but it make me ill.

[TURN3]

yet almost a second faster than Danica

your thoughts?

You wait SarahFan, Danica will be in the fast 6 for sure!

Sorry, couldn't resist. I should cut DF a break given that leading up to this week he toned his logic down to some level of reality. For that I'm thankful. But, she isn't looking too good again this weekend either. In fact, the AA team isn't nearly as competitive as last weekend. I guess that is a sign that their program is improving but only bit by bit...seems their street setup has been solid this year.

[SarahFan]

You wait SarahFan, Danica will be in the fast 6 for sure!

Sorry, couldn't resist. I should cut DF a break given that leading up to this week he toned his logic down to some level of reality. For that I'm thankful. But, she isn't looking too good again this weekend either. In fact, the AA team isn't nearly as competitive as last weekend. I guess that is a sign that their program is improving but only bit by bit...seems their street setup has been solid this year.


track is fast.... with fast quick transitions....she isnt going to get a sniff of the fast 12

but like a posted a few minutes ago..... a yellow is going to find a top guy or two without a flyer so anything can happen this afternoon

[SarahFan]

group 1 is going to be wild.....

7 drivers from the top ten in practice... plus milka and sato...


rubber is going to be an issue....4 series on track before hand including the drifters...

[Easy Drifter]

I doubt (hope) Milk and Donuts will not go out. There is no point.
At least she is not as far off the pace as at Toronto.
After a quick pace at TO the Princess seems to have gone back to her more normal speed.

[harvick#1]

You wait SarahFan, Danica will be in the fast 6 for sure!


oh great, you found what DF is smokin now too :p :

once again Danica will only get a top 10 finish if 12-15 drivers in front of her all crash,

Simona is putting her to shame and this is still her first time in the car in all the tracks, once she gets the tracks down with the car, She does appear to be the real deal :)

[beachbum]

Simona is putting her to shame and this is still her first time in the car in all the tracks, once she gets the tracks down with the car, She does appear to be the real deal :) There are many factors that are impressive about Simona's results. HVM is considered a very low budget team without the bucks and resources of the multi-car teams. It is also easy to forget she is just a rookie without an experienced teammate to help with information. The fact they can hit the setups pretty close shows just how good her feedback is and how well they work together as a team. All of the other drivers have been very complimentary about her ability on track and her attitude off the track. That is refreshing - and contrasting to you-know-who.

[beachbum]

You wait SarahFan, Danica will be in the fast 6 for sure!

Sorry, couldn't resist. Yeah, you could have. But you are right, DF hasn't lost his enthusiasm for his favorite driver, but the predictions are much more realistic. Plus he does post very good general information about the events, so he gets a little slack. (but maybe only a little) ;)

[harvick#1]

There are many factors that are impressive about Simona's results. HVM is considered a very low budget team without the bucks and resources of the multi-car teams. It is also easy to forget she is just a rookie without an experienced teammate to help with information. The fact they can hit the setups pretty close shows just how good her feedback is and how well they work together as a team. All of the other drivers have been very complimentary about her ability on track and her attitude off the track. That is refreshing - and contrasting to you-know-who.

which is why she can be a very hot item for a team. a driver giving excellent feedback and has good relationships with the other drivers on the track is huge for when getting on a high end multicar team, who knows, maybe in a year or 2, Ganassi could add a third car and put her in.

[DazzlaF1]

I doubt (hope) Milk and Donuts will not go out. There is no point.
At least she is not as far off the pace as at Toronto.
After a quick pace at TO the Princess seems to have gone back to her more normal speed.

Yes but she's still a country mile off, 6 seconds adrift on a 60 second lap, its ridiculous.

Have IndyCar ever thought of implementing some sort of road/street course rule for drivers like Milka like the 107% cut-off? Becuase there just seems little point in letting her race then pulling her in after 8-10 laps for being as slow as a golf buggy.

[DanicaFan]

Milka Duno is not qualifying.

[DanicaFan]

The 6 moving on are..

Will Power
Helio Castroneves
Raphael Matos
Ryan Briscoe
Justin Wilson
Dario Franchitti

[DanicaFan]

That sucks, I was hoping to see Danica move on..... :(

[DanicaFan]

Come on Marco and TK!

[DanicaFan]

Sato didnt cause a full course caution in group 1, Im suprised.

[DanicaFan]

Darn, TK just went out.

[harvick#1]

That sucks, I was hoping to see Danica move on..... :(

with the drivers in Group 1, how in the world did you think she would've been faster than them.

shes been in 20-22 in practice all week

[DanicaFan]

with the drivers in Group 1, how in the world did you think she would've been faster than them.

shes been in 20-22 in practice all week

I was thinking she would of been faster than Matos.

[DanicaFan]

The 6 from group 2 moving on are..

Simona De Silvestro
Ryan Hunter-Reay
Scott Dixon
EJ Viso
Hideki Mutoh
Tomas Scheckter

[TURN3]

I was thinking she would of been faster than Matos.

A.) Based on what?
B.) Quit thinking.

[Spiderman]

group 1 was so much faster than group 2. I dont understand why it is possible having all three drivers of one team in one group.

[DanicaFan]

group 1 was so much faster than group 2. I dont understand why it is possible having all three drivers of one team in one group.

The qualifying groups are done by a random draw. It's all luck.

[DanicaFan]

The 6 moving on from Round 2 are..

Will Power
Scott Dixon
Dario Franchitti
Helio Castroneves
Ryan Briscoe
EJ Viso

[TURN3]

Huge congrats to rookie HVM driver Simona!! Just missed the fast 6, very impressive.

[DanicaFan]

Look at the rain moving in. :eek:

[SarahFan]

Keep the info coming

[harvick#1]

Huge congrats to rookie HVM driver Simona!! Just missed the fast 6, very impressive.

:up:

[DanicaFan]

Congrats to Will Power for the pole..

Here is the starting grid..

Row 1

#12 Will Power
#3 Helio Castroneves

Row 2

#9 Scott Dixon
#10 Dario Franchitti

Row 3

#6 Ryan Briscoe
#8 EJ Viso

Row 4

#78 Simona De Silvestro
#37 Ryan Hunter-Reay

Row 5

#22 Justin Wilson
#2 Raphael Matos

Row 6

#06 Hideki Mutoh
#24 Tomas Scheckter

Row 7

#5 Takuma Sato
#32 Mario Moraes

Row 8

#15 Paul Tracy
#26 Marco Andretti

Row 9

#34 Mario Romancini
#19 Alex Lloyd

Row 10

#77 Alex Tagliani
#36 Bertrand Baguette

Row 11

#7 Danica Patrick
#4 Dan Wheldon

Row 12

#14 Vitor Meira
#11 Tony Kanaan

Row 13

#18 Milka Duno

[Scotty G.]

Milka placed on probation?

Not a Milka defender, but that seems like a chicken-youknowwhat decision by Indy Car.

If you want to place a guy on probation for "being dangerous" and "not living up to professional standards", the driver of the #32 car should be first in line.

Milka is dog slow, but she has ALWAYS been dog slow. And now because Rodeo Randy starts whining about her and its open season to jump on Milka, Barnhart decides to come up with some random "probation" deal?

Either tell her to go away or just live with her being 6 seconds off the pace. Simple as that. You only have 2 more road/street courses after this week. You have almost made it through 2010 with her.

[jimispeed]

Here is something fun guys!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm5oWQtmC-w

Can't wait for new chassis/engine formula. Wish it wasn't Dallara......but I'll take it, if it means more response and drivers fighting their cars power!

[TURN3]

Here is something fun guys!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm5oWQtmC-w

Can't wait for new chassis/engine formula. Wish it wasn't Dallara......but I'll take it, if it means more response and drivers fighting their cars power!

Yes, new formula can't get here soon enough. The DP01's look so nimble and quick...and the sound. 1 more year and we'll all get what we've asked for.

[Scotty G.]

1 more year and we'll all get what we've asked for.


The battles of the "aero kits"? :p with the "safety cell" car?

[Jag_Warrior]

which is why she can be a very hot item for a team. a driver giving excellent feedback and has good relationships with the other drivers on the track is huge for when getting on a high end multicar team, who knows, maybe in a year or 2, Ganassi could add a third car and put her in.

If that were to happen, I'd promise to watch ALL the races next season... even the ones on ABC. :dozey: The fact that she's gotten that HVM car toward the sharp end of the grid says a lot about her abilities. I doubt that even Lewis Hamilton or Sebastien Vettel could win in that car. So that's quite an accomplishment, especially for a rookie.



Milka placed on probation?

Not a Milka defender, but that seems like a chicken-youknowwhat decision by Indy Car.

If you want to place a guy on probation for "being dangerous" and "not living up to professional standards", the driver of the #32 car should be first in line.

Milka is dog slow, but she has ALWAYS been dog slow. And now because Rodeo Randy starts whining about her and its open season to jump on Milka, Barnhart decides to come up with some random "probation" deal?

Either tell her to go away or just live with her being 6 seconds off the pace. Simple as that. You only have 2 more road/street courses after this week. You have almost made it through 2010 with her.

But what does "probation" really mean? They didn't suspend her or yank her license, right? I mean, Paul Tracy has spent about half of his career on probation. I don't know that she's gotten any better, but she's certainly no worse than she was last season. So yeah, it is a chicken#### move, IMO. Just the IRL's way of doing something, without really doing something. Let's just hope that placing slow drivers on probation doesn't catch on in other series. Imagine if NASCAR does it?! What will the DanicaManiacs do when NASCAR puts Princess Lapped-a-Lot on double, super secret probation?

[e2mtt]

Here is something fun guys!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm5oWQtmC-w

Can't wait for new chassis/engine formula. Wish it wasn't Dallara......but I'll take it, if it means more response and drivers fighting their cars power!

That comparison is brutal. Mainly because the announcing on the IRL race is SO lackluster. End of the video - Penskes cars are dueling, somebody locks the brakes, the lead changes. The announcers barely notice.

[e2mtt]

Huge congrats to rookie HVM driver Simona!! Just missed the fast 6, very impressive.

Impressive is right... was in the fast 6 until the last minute or so. Driving for HVM, no less!

[TURN3]

The battles of the "aero kits"? :p with the "safety cell" car?

You wanted a new car or did you want to use the current Dallara another 5 years? Don't be critcal of the solution unless you've come up with a better one. Bottom line is anything new will be an improvement.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Milka placed on probation?

Not a Milka defender, but that seems like a chicken-youknowwhat decision by Indy Car.

If you want to place a guy on probation for "being dangerous" and "not living up to professional standards", the driver of the #32 car should be first in line.

Milka is dog slow, but she has ALWAYS been dog slow. And now because Rodeo Randy starts whining about her and its open season to jump on Milka, Barnhart decides to come up with some random "probation" deal?

Either tell her to go away or just live with her being 6 seconds off the pace. Simple as that. You only have 2 more road/street courses after this week. You have almost made it through 2010 with her.

I agree with you on this one Scott. Milka should have been parked within the first 3 races.

Moraes is a bigger menace. No one has wrecked because of Milka...Moraes on the other hand is a probably stock holder in Dallara because he has done to sell more parts and tubs than any salesman could.

[NickFalzone]

I agree with you on this one Scott. Milka should have been parked within the first 3 races.

Moraes is a bigger menace. No one has wrecked because of Milka...Moraes on the other hand is a probably stock holder in Dallara because he has done to sell more parts and tubs than any salesman could.

Lol I was thinking the same thing. Dallara must love him, and KV in general :)

[DazzlaF1]

Impressive is right... was in the fast 6 until the last minute or so. Driving for HVM, no less!
She's just getting better every weekend as she gets used to the car, big well done to her. But then again, the road courses are a strength of hers so its soon time to transfer that learning process to the ovals.

Good outside bet for a top 5 finish maybe?

[I am evil Homer]

Wait Bertrand Baguette out qualified Danica? And it'd not April 1? Wow that is simply dire. She better hope there's a lot of crashes.

[SarahFan]

PT has blog up at Racer.com about his quals...


"My own view is that I'm the type of driver who won't hang around and if I can make positions, I'll do that, whoever's in front. That's what the green flag is for – to tell you to start racing, and I'm not prepared to sit and wait for anyone. Generally I think I'm pretty good on cold tires, so I'd be surprised if we're still only 15th at the end of lap 1."-PT

^a quick take from paul..

[Scotty G.]

I agree with you on this one Scott. Milka should have been parked within the first 3 races.

Moraes is a bigger menace. No one has wrecked because of Milka...Moraes on the other hand is a probably stock holder in Dallara because he has done to sell more parts and tubs than any salesman could.


We agree again, Mark!


All this is, is Barnhart trying to cover his youknowwhat and save his job with Bernard.

Bernard starts squawking at Toronto and now Milka has to be dealt with.

Either yank her license and get her off the track (which should have happened LONG ago) or put up with her. Don't put her on some BS "probation" deal.

Simple fact is, they can't yank Milka's license because it would severely hamper one of their franchise teams. And they don't want to put Coyne out of business for 2010.

This is a BS move and I am far from defending Milka.

[DanicaFan]

Here are the results of this morning's warm-up session..

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/edmonton4.jpg

[nigelred5]

interesetd to see the track with out the grandstands.

[beachbum]

We agree again, Mark!


All this is, is Barnhart trying to cover his youknowwhat and save his job with Bernard.

Bernard starts squawking at Toronto and now Milka has to be dealt with.

Either yank her license and get her off the track (which should have happened LONG ago) or put up with her. Don't put her on some BS "probation" deal.

Simple fact is, they can't yank Milka's license because it would severely hamper one of their franchise teams. And they don't want to put Coyne out of business for 2010.

This is a BS move and I am far from defending Milka.They have found themselves in a box concerning Milka, and personally, I think "probation" is a weak way to get out of that box. Milka shouldn't be out there, but the issue is how to get her off the track without losing credibility or destroying Coyne.

Milka shows up with full season funding which has helped keep Coyne alive (by all accounts). The Coyne cars just aren't very good as even Lloyd has been pretty slow most of the time. So you have Milka who has never been very quick, on a team with questionable equipment, on tracks she never raced, and although she is off the pace, not much is said for much of the season. Now 11-12 races into the season, drivers start complaining, Randy get a burr up his you know what (even if I agree with his comments) so something has to be "done" about it.

Frankly, now is too late to make a public splash. It just looks disingenuous and almost petty after turning a blind eye for so long. Just do what they have for the last few races. Let her practice, park her during qualifying if she can't get under the 107%, and park her in the race if she can't make the pace. No need for "probation". Now for next year.......

Of course, who wants the job to go to Dale and tell him, gee I am sorry you were in a position to take a ride buyer who brought money but no talent. But now the driver has to go away - along with the funding keeping you afloat. So sorry. Oh, and good luck.

Incidentally, if they are going to park Milka for being over 107%, at some of the IPS races that would also park Barbosa and Jorda. They aren't as far off as Milka, but they are often slow enough to get in the way.

[Nikki Katz]

Go Milka!
I love that the internet commentators announced that she was slower than every single car in the support race earlier :)

[Tazio]

Go Milka!
I love that the internet commentators announced that she was slower than every single car in the support race earlier
Did she make it past the first corner befor she retired? :crazy: :bounce: :kiss: :s ailor: :rolleyes:

[gm99]

Did she make it past the first corner befor she retired? :rolleyes:

Well, she did manage to spin on the opening lap :p
In the end, she did six laps before retiring due to the infamous "handling" issues. Her crew did a good job pretending there was actually something wrong with the car other than the person sitting in its cockpit, though ;)

Other than that, a pretty uneventful race thus far...

[Tazio]

Viso T-bones Simona :mad: :s ailor: :arrowed: :burp: getting ugly now! :arrows:

[harvick#1]

that was all EJ on that one, he over braked the turn and made Simona the brake point.

its a shame cause she was doing amazing out there and holding her own against top drivers like Wilson and co. hell she even drove away from them on the long green runs.

she needs to be put into a top team, I'd love to see what she could bring to the table.

[Nikki Katz]

wtf?!?!?!?!

[Tazio]

What the hell was that? Helio got robbed! :eek: :down:

[hsracin]

Brian Barnhardt needs to be fired now!!!

...and banned from all IndyCar races ever.

[Hoop-98]

I agree

[don hodgdon]

Not a Helio fan at all, but that call sucked! He should be climbing a fence right now.

[SUBARUTEAM]

what was the call. the IMS radio guys have no clue what happened????

[hsracin]

I'll also say terrific job to Scott Dixon on that restart to take 2nd place; he read it very well. But it was a 2nd place performance not a win and I'm kind of disappointed that he's celebrating it as a legitimate win.

[gm99]

Apparently, no Brazilian winners are wanted today...

[hsracin]

Not a Helio fan at all, but that call sucked! He should be climbing a fence right now.

Well he was almost climbing that control tower until security got to him. Barnhardt probably needs to change his pants now.

[NickFalzone]

Helio did make a bit of a minor blocking move (maybe more than minor) but to give him a black flag for it was just bad judgement. Worst he should have gotten is give up one-spot for the lead. I actually am generally a fan of Barnhart, but I think he definitely made the wrong call here.

[disko]

I think that was the final black eye. Ruined a great day of racing.

Seriously, that was a pathetic penalty.

[DanicaFan]

I am absolutely stunned. That call for blocking on Helio was complete BS!

[SUBARUTEAM]

where did helio end up?

the track feed is hopeless (unless you are a fan of danicia or paul tracy)

[NickFalzone]

yeah I was a little surprised that Will so confidently called it a block. On TV it looked like he still gave Will room, it was not so clearly a block.

[NickFalzone]

where did helio end up?

the track feed is hopeless (unless you are a fan of danicia or paul tracy)

Last they showed on VS, he was placed in 6th.

[TURN3]

They placed him 10th, last car on the lead lap.

Bad call, Helio got robbed. That said, how does it feel Helio (Turn 3, 2002)! :D

[DanicaFan]

Last they showed on VS, he was placed in 6th.

Last I saw, he was shown 10th. They are reviewing the decision now, so it may not be over.

[hsracin]

Last they showed on VS, he was placed in 6th.

I think they pulled his scoring on the last lap. The radio guys just said he was in 10th which would put him as the highest finishing lap down car.

They're also saying the call is being reviewed, so we'll see what happens.

[SUBARUTEAM]

Last they showed on VS, he was placed in 6th.

thanks Dude.
Monday morning (just gone midday) and I have watched the whole race on the net at work. i will need to do some work shortly but just can't bring myself to log off!!

[NickFalzone]

Rahal on Twitter says Helio blocked. If that means anything lol.

[DanicaFan]

Rahal on Twitter says Helio blocked. If that means anything lol.

Shockingly, Power said that in his post race interview. I didnt see it and if it was there, it was so minor, no black flag should of been thrown, warning at best.

[FORMULA-A]

Rahal on Twitter says Helio blocked. If that means anything lol.

Come on. Helio didn't block, period. Barney is a moron. I hate Helio but it was wrong wrong wrong. I must say ol Power went down in my opinion as well by coyly throwing Helio Bozo under the bus. This is a black eye for IndyCar and I hope it is the final straw so that BARNEY BARNHART gets his long overdue walking papers.

[DanicaFan]

Well, another shocking story of the race... Sato actually finishes a race...lol ;)

[hsracin]

Well, another shocking story of the race... Sato actually finishes a race...lol ;)

Ahh yes almost forgot, and a top 10 at that.

[beachgirl]

Well, another shocking story of the race... Sato actually finishes a race...lol ;)

And in one piece! KV will have to cancel their standing weekly order of Sato parts. :)

[mtrot]

I just don't see it as blocking. Power pulled out WAY WIDE, while Helio eased out a bit to be able to carry any kind of speed around the corner. But there was still plenty of room for Power to continue outside of Helio with no problem. Plus, with Power way outside going into the turn, and Helio still ahead, how can that be called a block?

[mileman]

Now we see that the IRL really wanted Vince McMahon to run the show after all. Last week's crashfest and this week's penalty debacle don't provide very good marketing vehicles for the series.

[hsracin]

I'm hearing now that Brian Barnhardt says the penalty is official. At this point it is up to Randy Bernard to make this the last race Barnhardt will ever attend.

[DanicaFan]

Here are the final results...

1. #9 Scott Dixon
2. #12 Will Power
3. #10 Dario Franchitti
4. #6 Ryan Briscoe
5. #37 Ryan Hunter-Reay
6. #15 Paul Tracy
7. #32 Mario Moraes
8. #8 EJ Viso
9. #5 Takuma Sato
10. #3 Helio Castroneves
11. #26 Marco Andretti
12. #11 Tony Kanaan
13. #2 Raphael Matos
14. #36 Bertrand Baguette
15. #7 Danica Patrick
16. #14 Vitor Meira
17. #06 Hideki Mutoh
18. #19 Alex Lloyd
19. #24 Tomas Scheckter
20. #4 Dan Wheldon
21. #22 Justin Wilson
22. #78 Simona De Silvestro
23. #77 Alex Tagliani
24. #34 Mario Romancini
25. #18 Milka Duno

[Easy Drifter]

As an old racer I say the call was completely and absolutely-------BS.
Good grief there is far more blocking every race and was this one further back.
Guess Brian wanted to upstage the F1 contraversy.
Time for him to go. Maybe F1 and the Stewards are not so bad after all.

[Will Rogers]

I think that if Will Power would say Helio was blocking, that says volumes. He's not the sort to complain about something that he didn't think happened, and he's also a pretty good teammate and wouldn't implicate a teammate in something that wasn't legit.

To my eye, the block wasn't so much on the approach to the corner but the way Helio drove Will off line on the exit--Helio had red tires and because they slowed considerably he could have easily have held his line in the corner. But he drifted way left, cutting Will off, which also allowed Dixon to come up the inside to take 2nd. Dixon was on black tires and did a better job of holding the line in the turn than Helio.

I'm glad IndyCar finally called blocking on someone, and did it to someone of note--not EJ Viso or Scheckter.

[Scotty G.]

I didn't think it was in the rules that either Helio or Danica could be actually penalized for blocking.

Both are two of the biggest offenders in the sport. And have always been.

Whether you do it at that point in the race, is the biggest question.

But did Helio block? Of course. He's damn good at it. And he finally got called on it.

[SoCalPVguy]

Here are the final results...

1. #9 Scott Dixon
2. #12 Will Power
3. #10 Dario Franchitti
4. #6 Ryan Briscoe
5. #37 Ryan Hunter-Reay
6. #15 Paul Tracy
7. #32 Mario Moraes
8. #8 EJ Viso
9. #5 Takuma Sato
10. #3 Helio Castroneves
11. #26 Marco Andretti
12. #11 Tony Kanaan
13. #2 Raphael Matos
14. #36 Bertrand Baguette
15. #7 Danica Patrick
16. #14 Vitor Meira
17. #06 Hideki Mutoh
18. #19 Alex Lloyd
19. #24 Tomas Scheckter
20. #4 Dan Wheldon
21. #22 Justin Wilson
22. #78 Simona De Silvestro
23. #77 Alex Tagliani
24. #34 Mario Romancini
25. #18 Milka Duno

Top 15 finish for your girl !!! Niiiiice.

[SoCalPVguy]

If I wasn't about done with Indycar before this race, I am now !!!!

Note to Barney the officious wannabe mall cop --- IT'S RACING YOU IDIOT !!!!

Take your politically correct statist centralized control and shove it !!!! People don't watch the races to see the chief steward... Geeze this make ICS look like bozos and World Wrestling like a real sport.

[TURN3]

Well, another shocking story of the race... Sato actually finishes a race...lol ;)

No, what was shocking was that all 3 of KV's clowns didn't tear up a single car all weekend. Viso did his best to keep the circus gates open though with that move on Simona.

[TURN3]

All this controversy has overshadowed some awesome performances. Simona was legit until Viso hit her. She would've been top 10 even yet until they ran her our of fuel. Too bad but she showed well and that means a ton.

Part Time PT also showed what he's capable of. Again, watched his in car the entire race and KV has to be seriously wondering at this point why they don't drop at least one of their morons and build their program around PT for a year or two. The guy can race and with the best of them...still, today, 40+ or not, part time or not, and with KV at that!! Give him 2 full seaons and he'll win a race or two here or there. Too bad Briscoe ran him off on that restart or he's 4th (5th really, Helio won).

[call_me_andrew]

But did Helio block? Of course. He's damn good at it. And he finally got called on it.

Hell no he didn't block! To block someone, you have to swerve to stay in front of him. Power was to Elio's left before the "move" so it was not a block. This is worse than that blown call at the end of Armando Galarraga's perfect game because Barnhart, unlike the umpires in MLB, has the luxury of replay.

[Hoss Ghoul]

Embarrasing.

And unbelievable.

[00steven]

Blocking calls are B.S. anyway, there shouldn't be penelties for blocking unless it results in a wreck or they run the person all the way down the track. That being said Helio did block but as I said it shouldn't have been a penalty.

I'm just glad Scott won instead of Power.

[harvick#1]

Hell no he didn't block! To block someone, you have to swerve to stay in front of him. Power was to Elio's left before the "move" so it was not a block. This is worse than that blown call at the end of Armando Galarraga's perfect game because Barnhart, unlike the umpires in MLB, has the luxury of replay.

the same bogus blocking was in the ALMS also, luckly, the Highcroft Acura had a puncture at the same moment of the BS so called block when the Cytosport Porsche tried to pass 2 GT2 cars on the bottom of the straight

[beachbum]

Was it a block or not? The problem with most of the complaints and arguments are that they are based on the viewer's interpretation and judgment of what is a block. But what matters is what the rules say is a block and what instructions were given to the drivers in the drivers meeting. We (and Helio) not agree with that interpretation, but a rule is a rule, and violation warrants a response consistent with the announced penalties.

So in my mind the only questions concern what the drivers were told would be considered a block. What Helio actually did doesn't need interpretation - it is all on the video we have all seen too many times. Not many have any disagreement about that.

If the drivers were told that a lead car going to the right of the center line would be considered a block, then Helio did block. Perhaps the fact he overshot the turn and pushed Power very wide into the marbles may have been considered part of a block if it was deemed deliberate. If that isn't what they were told would be block, then the other drivers have an obligation to clear up the matter, because it is obvious that some fans won't believe anything from the IRL and only will believe what they want to believe.

Was it a block? Darned if I know as the rule hasn't yet been explained very clearly by anyone, especially the "experts" on racing forums. When I heard on th broadcast that Helio was getting drive though, like almost everyone else I said "What? Was that a block?". After reflection, I honestly don't know as I don't know the rule

But I do know that touching, grabbing, or pushing an official is a serious violation, regardless of the reasons. Helio also disobeyed an official call to take the drive through. He may not agree with the call, but you don't ignore the officials unless you are willing to face the consequences. IHMO, Helio was out of line in his response after the fact and deserves some penalty. If those 2 events are allowed to go without comment by the league, then I have lost respect for the IRL.

[hondacom]

Helio has gotten away with a lot of stuff over the years. Blocking and taking out others. Including PT. Maybe this was pay back time.

[SoCalPVguy]

Blocking calls are B.S. anyway, there shouldn't be penelties for blocking unless it results in a wreck or they run the person all the way down the track. That being said Helio did block but as I said it shouldn't have been a penalty.


agreed. Protecting your position is an essential part of racing. What's the lead car supposed to do, pretend its the AYSO and let someone else win because it 'not fair to be in the lead'/ ??? This is utter BS, why race at all when it is illegal to protect your lead as long as no one is endangered.

PS when have they ever called blocking in Nascar? It is only about 10x more popular that indy car in the USA.. maybe they're on to something...

[anthonyvop]

I bet Paul Tracy is smiling.

[SarahFan]

Just finished watched on tape delay...

rediculous...dont know what else to say

[SarahFan]

question for the class?

can the results be protested?

[harvick#1]

I didn't think it was in the rules that either Helio or Danica could be actually penalized for blocking.

Both are two of the biggest offenders in the sport. And have always been.

Whether you do it at that point in the race, is the biggest question.

But did Helio block? Of course. He's damn good at it. And he finally got called on it.

:up: thank you, the 2 of them get away with murder everyrace with their blocks, but since the media and the crowd loves them, the IRL is always too scared to penalize them.

it was a pretty solid race in part until EJ pulled his bonehead move and shunted Simona, causing her to lose that lap (another thing, does the safety crew absolutely hate her or something, she was stalled there for how long before someone actually got her refired)

PT drove a heck of a race, as well as Sato who finally put a complete race together

[SoCalPVguy]

question for the class?

can the results be protested?

It is my understanding that under the rules this cannot be protested.

[FORMULA-A]

You have to wonder what the CAPTAIN is going to do. "OK guys am going to INDY for the 400 have a good race...." HAH. And I know this is a bad infraction because I no likee Helio but wrong is wrong and Barnhart is wrong. I heard RM on Windbag extra suggest that Unser Jr get in their and be the steward and I could not agree more. Get a get great driver in the box and lose BARNEY.

[TURN3]

It is my understanding that under the rules this cannot be protested.

Sort of a joke fyi. The thing is, you can protest it, spend tens of thousands on legal fees and data acquisition...THEN be told you can't protest it.

[anthonyvop]

You have to wonder what the CAPTAIN is going to do. "OK guys am going to INDY for the 400 have a good race...." HAH. And I know this is a bad infraction because I no likee Helio but wrong is wrong and Barnhart is wrong. I heard RM on Windbag extra suggest that Unser Jr get in their and be the steward and I could not agree more. Get a get great driver in the box and lose BARNEY.

Unser Jr.? Is he serious???

[call_me_andrew]

I'm pretty sure Miller didn't say Jr.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well, because I was at a lacrosse game playing amateur TV production dude, I didn't see it. However, the calls for Barnhart's head are quite legit. I have thought the last year or so he hasn't seemed to grasp when to crack the whip on the rules and when to shy away from making a call.

Blocking...on an AIRPORT CIRCUIT?????

I dunno...I will watch the highlights tomorrow and maybe have a change of heart, but not likely. The rules may say you cannot block, but of course, they all do it at one point or another, and some; like Danica and Helio have done it pretty obviously. We shall see...but sometimes you live by the sword, sometimes you die by it. If That was PT he tried shutting the door on instead of his teammate, does PT put Helio into the weeds? Someone needs to think of this stuff....

Great finish for PT, and Sato....for not tearing up a race car.

Helio got screwed, but hey, if he is that scared of Power, maybe he needs to learn to outrun him, because if Will Power was faster than you 3 laps from the end, he might have been faster than you 2 and 1 laps from the end. Helio needs to grasp that Will was going to get by....and is 2nd better than the 10th he got.

IT may be a BS call, but you race knowing they have an idiot for a chief steward...

[MDS]

Well, the call is BS... time to bring in someone with credibility. I would think that Barnhart is gone at the end of the season.

KV has 4 cars in the top 10 and for the first time this season the guys in the shop aren't going to thrash to repair a tub or finish a new one in time for the next race... I think they're coming into form, better late than never.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

KV has 4 cars in the top 10 and for the first time this season the guys in the shop aren't going to thrash to repair a tub or finish a new one in time for the next race... I think they're coming into form, better late than never.

Surely, that's going to be the exception rather than the norm. Oh, I see Simona was the latest victim of KV Crashing Technology. Bummer.

[Lousada]

Another over the top call from BB. In F1 teammates get penalised for not racing, and here they penalised for racing eachother. I don't know what's more insane :mad:

Still, Indycar desperately needs this controversy. The first 40 laps of green flag was booooring. Penske/Ganassi would have lapped the whole field twice the way it was going. Of course then there is always KV Racing to cause a caution, but why did the victim have to be Simona :mad:

[DanicaFan]

Top 15 finish for your girl !!! Niiiiice.

Hey, not bad considering that she had that bad pit stop where they had to raise the car again to tighten up the left rear tire. Plus, she went off in the grass later on and she had minor contact in the incident involving Alex Tagliani and Mario Romancini. She had to go back in the pits and get a new nose on the car.

[speeddurango]

I think this has been a great race politically. Because the fact is that Helio was obviously blocking and is only subject to discussion in terms of different interpretation of rule book in line changing matter. But this whole act would almost definetely play in disfavor of BB's credibility. It would be of a great thing to Indycar once BB leaves his post, and hopefully this is one of the factor that would finally lead to that realization.

[chuck34]

Was it a block or not? The problem with most of the complaints and arguments are that they are based on the viewer's interpretation and judgment of what is a block. But what matters is what the rules say is a block and what instructions were given to the drivers in the drivers meeting. We (and Helio) not agree with that interpretation, but a rule is a rule, and violation warrants a response consistent with the announced penalties.

You are 100% correct (at least as I understand it). The rule said going to that side of the track was blocking. So by the rule he was blocking. However, the rule was just plain stupid and unnecesary. If someone couldn't figure that out before the race, they should have figured it out when they saw it happen. It is stupid for the very reason you state the VIEWERS ALL know it was not blocking. I have yet to see anyone defend the call except on technical grounds. That's hogwash and it's gonna alienate people as believing (rightfully so) that the IRL is a league of stupid draconian rules, not a racing league.


But I do know that touching, grabbing, or pushing an official is a serious violation, regardless of the reasons. Helio also disobeyed an official call to take the drive through. He may not agree with the call, but you don't ignore the officials unless you are willing to face the consequences. IHMO, Helio was out of line in his response after the fact and deserves some penalty. If those 2 events are allowed to go without comment by the league, then I have lost respect for the IRL.

For touching an official he should be sat out for at least one race (maybe the rest of the year), and fined till the end of time. There is no room for that sort of crap, no matter how bad a call that was.

[SarahFan]

8 or 10 years ago I took a buddy to laguna seca for the CART race........it was the year max papis won..... he ran back of the pack all day... was seconds off the leaders pace.....but becuase of yellows and pit strategiy he found himself up front towards the 3/4 mark of the race or so......

I explained to my buddy that he would need to pit again and the leaders (racers! faster cars) would cycle back to the front...... then with like 10 togo instead of haveing to pit they declare a timed race .....instead of ptting Max nurses the car home for a pathetic win.... then as we all filed out of the track past victory circle he acted like it was the greatest win of all time.....fans were disgusted...

my friend simply wont go back to another OW race..... why bother he says...



so if you your a diehard and drug along a friend or two to the track yesterday.......is there any reason you would honestly expect them to return next year? or tune in next week?

[SarahFan]

For touching an official he should be sat out for at least one race (maybe the rest of the year), and fined till the end of time. There is no room for that sort of crap, no matter how bad a call that was.

did he touch an official? or a security guard?

and it was hardly in physcial im gonna kick your ass manner..... it was in a pleading manner...

fines and supension?.... you have got to be kidding me

[DanicaFan]

did he touch an official? or a security guard?

and it was hardly in physcial im gonna kick your ass manner..... it was in a pleading manner...

fines and supension?.... you have got to be kidding me

Helio did put his hand on an official's chest but he didnt swing or push, he just layed it there. He did grab Charles Burns, who I work for when I work at Indy and Charles is the head guy for the IRL Security, by the collar but it was a pleading manner. It was like why, how can they do this? How can you let them type of grab. You can clearly see Charles smiling. He knows it wasnt threatening and he knows Helio. He was letting him vent.

[SarahFan]

Helio did put his hand on an official's chest but he didnt swing or push, he just layed it there. He did grab Charles Burns, who I work for when I work at Indy and Charles is the head guy for the IRL Security, by the collar but it was a pleading manner. It was like why, how can they do this? How can you let them type of grab. You can clearly see Charles smiling. He knows it wasnt threatening and he knows Helio. He was letting him vent.

exactly....

fines and suspensions?....thats a joke

[SarahFan]

Helio underreacted IMO...

seriously folks just dont know what Edmonton means!

[e2mtt]

Flat out stupid brain-dead call. There wasn't anything wrong with Helio's move, and if you compare it to years of historical racing video, it was a very ordinary (and exciting & good, especially by Dixon) bit of racing. If you compare it with CART racing at Cleveland, you have to wonder if everybody still thinks its a pace lap.

[mileman]

If the average fan doesn't get it - then eventually there won't be any average fans. When the rules become very technical and don't seem to equate with common sense observation in the minds of many fans, interest will be diminished. (Oh no! Did I say "common sense?") This would especially seem to apply to unique airport tracks like Edmonton and Cleveland.

I'd be interested to know how many penalties were ever called on turn 1 starts or restarts at Cleveland.

[Scotty G.]

Helio did put his hand on an official's chest but he didnt swing or push, he just layed it there.


He had his hands all over Charles.

And he was all over Kevin Blanch too.


Helio was putting on a show, but you can't touch officials like that. He deserves a big fine. I don't care who he is and how seriously Charles took it. You don't touch officials. EVER.

[mileman]

He had his hands all over Charles.

And he was all over Kevin Blanch too.


Helio was putting on a show, but you can't touch officials like that. He deserves a big fine. I don't care who he is and how seriously Charles took it. You don't touch officials. EVER.

AJ would be slapping the living daylights out of them if it was his driver. Ha!

[SoCalPVguy]

I've seen the replay about 10 times now. This whole thing is joke and I'm done w. Indycar. Not.another.dime.from.me.

To the posters that say "Helio was OBVIOUSLY blocking". I say get some glasses. IF he was blocking and I think he was not, he has holding a direct line towards the turn, it certainly was not "obvious" and the on camera commentators confirm that.

Defending your position is a tradition of racing and this just makes ICS a joke where central control trumps the drivers. I would expect this in WWE or Nascar and they're jokes too, so jokes don't get my money or attention anymore. The fact that there are posters defending this travesty and noting Helio should be 'suspended' makes me wonder about the remaining common sense in America.

[SarahFan]

He had his hands all over Charles.

And he was all over Kevin Blanch too.


Helio was putting on a show, but you can't touch officials like that. He deserves a big fine. I don't care who he is and how seriously Charles took it. You don't touch officials. EVER.

whatever.... a fine?...a big fine!?

you have got to be kidding me, what a joke

[SoCalPVguy]

If the average fan doesn't get it - then eventually there won't be any average fans.

Oh you are sooooo right... big picture : Average fans are already hard to come by for Indycar.

Between being invisible on Versus and containing no name drivers in ugly clunky cars, there's not much here to interest the average fan.

And to screw over the only driver that's well know Helio "Dancing with the Stars" Castroneves further alienates the average fan. Feedback I'm getting is even the techie die-hard fan is turned off by this too.

[SarahFan]

I've seen the replay about 10 times now. This whole thing is joke and I'm done w. Indycar. Not.another.dime.from.me.

To the posters that say "Helio was OBVIOUSLY blocking". I say get some glasses. IF he was blocking and I think he was not, he has holding a direct line towards the turn, it certainly was not "obvious" and the on camera commentators confirm that.

Defending your position is a tradition of racing and this just makes ICS a joke where central control trumps the drivers. I would expect this in WWE or Nascar and they're jokes too, so jokes don't get my money or attention anymore. The fact that there are posters defending this travesty and noting Helio should be 'suspended' makes me wonder about the remaining common sense in America.

no doubt.... when did thios become the Izod IndyCar driving exhibition league?

i thought this was racing!?!?!

[e2mtt]

...and how does a rule like this come into Indycar? First I ever remember about a high-line / blocking rule was Champ Car at San Jose, which was a nasty narrow little walled-in street track. It was a gimmick to try to help out a dog of a track.

Now we have a wide-open airport track, with areas of concrete 200' wide & 50' wide corners, & race control is splitting hairs & black flagging drivers over the lines they take through the corner?

The way I figure; if haven't put all 4 wheels in the dirt, over the kerb, or hit something hard, your'll still on track & you can keep racing.
(I can understand a few exceptions... maybe special rules for a notoriously difficult corner on an otherwise good track.)

[chuck34]

Helio did put his hand on an official's chest but he didnt swing or push, he just layed it there. He did grab Charles Burns, who I work for when I work at Indy and Charles is the head guy for the IRL Security, by the collar but it was a pleading manner. It was like why, how can they do this? How can you let them type of grab. You can clearly see Charles smiling. He knows it wasnt threatening and he knows Helio. He was letting him vent.

I didn't actually see it. I was listening on the radio. Those guys seemed to make it sound worse than you are. Still in many places touching, any touching, is a huge no-no. I stand by at least a fine. And I'm not one for fining usually.

[chuck34]

The fact that there are posters defending this travesty and noting Helio should be 'suspended' makes me wonder about the remaining common sense in America.

I'm not saying he should be suspended for his on track actions. That was clearly not blocking and no penalty should be assessed.

I'm saying that something, probably a fine, should be leveled for touching an official. No matter how "innocent" or "pleading" it was, the fact was that he was holding an official by the collar. I'll see if I can find a rule book, but I'd bet that goes against the conduct clause.

[SarahFan]

I didn't actually see it. I was listening on the radio. Those guys seemed to make it sound worse than you are. Still in many places touching, any touching, is a huge no-no. I stand by at least a fine. And I'm not one for fining usually.

dfan is spot on on this one....

this is a non issue....

they already royally screwed the pooch on this one.... cant imagine a fine or suspension is even being considered

[Easy Drifter]

If anyone is interested in my take on the on track part of it and the F1 nonsense you can read on-- see my signature line

[SarahFan]

0EkQ1n75nlI

[SarahFan]

chuck... the second 1/2 shows the aftermath (touching etc)...

I think you will agree this is a non issue

[chuck34]

chuck... the second 1/2 shows the aftermath (touching etc)...

I think you will agree this is a non issue

I don't have sound here at work. Can you hear what any of them say?

After watching it, just watching, no sound, I have a very clear cut thought on what I'd do. I think I'm in the minority, and I reserve the right to change my mind until I get a chance to hear what was said. But that grab was not done in any sort of innocent manner. Charles was being jerked around and he's not a small guy.

[SarahFan]

I don't have sound here at work. Can you hear what any of them say?

After watching it, just watching, no sound, I have a very clear cut thought on what I'd do. I think I'm in the minority, and I reserve the right to change my mind until I get a chance to hear what was said. But that grab was not done in any sort of innocent manner. Charles was being jerked around and he's not a small guy.

sound is inaudible...

and not sure whether your in the minority.....but the fact dfan and i agree I'd think you are

[chuck34]

sound is inaudible...

and not sure whether your in the minority.....but the fact dfan and i agree I'd think you are

So are you ok with competitors grabbing officials? How about punching them? How about throwing them to the ground? Where is the line? In my view Helio grabbed an official, pushed him around a bit, in an attempt to physically intimidate him. It could be debated all day long how the official took it, or how it was ment, but in most code of conduct clauses I've seen, physical contact ANY physical contact is grounds for a penalty.

I'm not saying that Helio wasn't justified, or that I wouldn't have done the same thing. Just that physical contact with an official, especially in heated moments, can not be tollerated.

What if PT would have been the one doing the grabbing? Would that have been as "innocent"?

[SarahFan]

So are you ok with competitors grabbing officials? How about punching them? How about throwing them to the ground? Where is the line? In my view Helio grabbed an official, pushed him around a bit, in an attempt to physically intimidate him. It could be debated all day long how the official took it, or how it was ment, but in most code of conduct clauses I've seen, physical contact ANY physical contact is grounds for a penalty.

I'm not saying that Helio wasn't justified, or that I wouldn't have done the same thing. Just that physical contact with an official, especially in heated moments, can not be tollerated.

What if PT would have been the one doing the grabbing? Would that have been as "innocent"?


the grabbing was more 'pleading' than 'violent or aggressive'....

it wasnt a push a shove or a punch.... far from it IMO....

like most things in life everything is open to interpretation.... my take is if this results in a fine or probation it would simply be adding salt to the wound and a gross over reaction.....

YMMV... and clearly does

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think a fine for touching an official is fine. It isn't like Helio doesn't have the money, and it isn't like Penske would likely pay it for him. IT is the principle of not touching an official. As Chuck said, if that is PT, is Charles smiling? I doubt it. Paul is a pretty tough dude....Then again, Paul likes to carve people up with his mouth on camera, and that is far more biting.

Helio got screwed. How you can be nailed for blocking on a runway 200 feet wide is a bloody mystery to me. If that's a block than they might as well give up the series. I know what the rules say, but that was a horse$hit call made by a horse$hit steward who has made repeatedly bad calls and non-calls in all his years in charge of the IRL.

When you screw a guy over like that, you clearly don't know what you are doing. It is RACING....not chess or tiddley winks.

Will Power threw his buddy under the bus unintentionally I suppose by saying "ya he blocked me"...but there is a block..and there is a BLOCK. What Helio did was subtle, and within the gray area all guys live by on the track.

What happened after, well fine him a little and lets move on....

[stephenw_us]

I used to say that Indy Car is a little bit better than GP2 but after hearing about this stupid rule and watching that sham of a finish yesterday, the IRL just took a back seat to GP2 in my mind...at least they race each other in GP2...

I fully expect the IRL to now paint highway lane like white lines at all the road courses they "race" at...

What an effing joke I can't believe IRL fans at this point in the history of this sorry league have the temerity to criticize F1 for anything...what a JOKE.

[chuck34]

the grabbing was more 'pleading' than 'violent or aggressive'....

a) How do you know? Charles seemed to move around, and he's not a small man.
b) Why did it take someone else to physically remove Helio from Charles' shirt?
c) Does it really matter?


it wasnt a push a shove or a punch.... far from it IMO....

So where do you draw the line? Charles was moved by the force of Helio's actions, isn't that a push? The line is sometimes hard to draw. That's why most codes of conduct draw the line at contact.


like most things in life everything is open to interpretation.... my take is if this results in a fine or probation it would simply be adding salt to the wound and a gross over reaction.....

It may be salt in the wound ... But if this behaviour isn't made an example of now, what happens next time PT is pissed and goes after an official?


YMMV... and clearly does

Yes, and isn't that the fun of these boards? If we all agreed all the time, it'd be a boring place ;)

[SarahFan]

a) How do you know? Charles seemed to move around, and he's not a small man.
b) Why did it take someone else to physically remove Helio from Charles' shirt?
c) Does it really matter?



So where do you draw the line? Charles was moved by the force of Helio's actions, isn't that a push? The line is sometimes hard to draw. That's why most codes of conduct draw the line at contact.



It may be salt in the wound ... But if this behaviour isn't made an example of now, what happens next time PT is pissed and goes after an official?



Yes, and isn't that the fun of these boards? If we all agreed all the time, it'd be a boring place ;)

A my opinion
B hardly had to be physically removed
C too me it does...huge difference


draw that line at violent behavior....PT and sebastein at denver... violent... PT and tag at san jose violent.....AJ and airie at texas... violent......helio not so much IMO

happens again... make a common sense judement call




and thats my line!!!!!

[bzcam]

All this controversy has overshadowed some awesome performances. Simona was legit until Viso hit her. She would've been top 10 even yet until they ran her our of fuel. Too bad but she showed well and that means a ton.

On her Twitter page she just said that her fuel pump broke and that she was not out of gas. To me, she looks like a star in the making. She has that old "shut up and drive" approach to the sport that all rookies should have. It would be nice to see what she could do in a real car.

BZ

[mileman]

OK - a far fetched hypothetical. Danica and Simona are battling for the lead in the same situation - or either of them is leading Power. Does Barnhart make the same call? Would this sliver of a tehnicality be applied in all instances?

[00steven]

Helio should be hammered for his tantrum you should never grab an official.

[SUBARUTEAM]

I've seen the replay about 10 times now. This whole thing is joke and I'm done w. Indycar. Not.another.dime.from.me.

To the posters that say "Helio was OBVIOUSLY blocking". I say get some glasses. IF he was blocking and I think he was not, he has holding a direct line towards the turn, it certainly was not "obvious" and the on camera commentators confirm that.

Defending your position is a tradition of racing and this just makes ICS a joke where central control trumps the drivers. I would expect this in WWE or Nascar and they're jokes too, so jokes don't get my money or attention anymore. The fact that there are posters defending this travesty and noting Helio should be 'suspended' makes me wonder about the remaining common sense in America.

dude, according to the rules - Helio was blocking. it was clear and he got caught. his team mate agreed that he was blocked.

what more can we say about it.

the rule can be debated later - but as it stood yesterday ( and as it was described in the drivers meeting) - Helio broke the rules and served his penality. Period.

[SUBARUTEAM]

further to the above - what happened after the race should not go unpenalised. In my opinion, he needs to lose his points from yesterdays race.

[TURN3]

Guys, while I completely agree with the sentiment here and all over the internet that Helio got hosed, I don't think this is being considered by most of us on the fan level. Apparently, according to each and every driver that has commented on this, the rule was clearly defined that you could not take the defensive line into the corner to keep a car from passing. Therefore, the rule was established and they ALL knew it from the drivers meeting. The same rule was apparently in place at the end of the backstretch in Toronto.

I completely agree that it was not blocking as we all know it. Taking a defensive line into a turn is different than blocking to me and that is what Helio did. Nothing wrong with that. He didn't change his line like we all expect to see when blocking is called. BUT, according to the rules that every other driver followed, he broke them. I don't necessarliy agree with the rule, but their intent was to make racing better by putting it in place. I do agree with that.

So all that being said, I think what really should be argued here is if the penalty was justified by the act. A black flag is awfully harsh, give the spot up is the right call. That is what they did in Detroit a couple years ago...why not this time? That's what makes no sense to me. The infraction makes complete sense to me knowing what I know now.

[SUBARUTEAM]

Guys, while I completely agree with the sentiment here and all over the internet that Helio got hosed, I don't think this is being considered by most of us on the fan level. Apparently, according to each and every driver that has commented on this, the rule was clearly defined that you could not take the defensive line into the corner to keep a car from passing. Therefore, the rule was established and they ALL knew it from the drivers meeting. The same rule was apparently in place at the end of the backstretch in Toronto.

I completely agree that it was not blocking as we all know it. Taking a defensive line into a turn is different than blocking to me and that is what Helio did. Nothing wrong with that. He didn't change his line like we all expect to see when blocking is called. BUT, according to the rules that every other driver followed, he broke them. I don't necessarliy agree with the rule, but their intent was to make racing better by putting it in place. I do agree with that.

So all that being said, I think what really should be argued here is if the penalty was justified by the act. A black flag is awfully harsh, give the spot up is the right call. That is what they did in Detroit a couple years ago...why not this time? That's what makes no sense to me. The infraction makes complete sense to me knowing what I know now.

you do make a good point.

so would you have given Helio 3rd place? or 2nd place?

How would you treat the post race melt down?

[Nem14]

Having a rule that prohibits a driver from making at least one move to defend their position, disqualifies the series from being called "racing", IMO.

If the product is SO BAD you need rules like 9.3(B), just flush the whole thing along with all the other turds.

There is no doubt Helio violated the rule (that should not exist) and that placing his hands on officials also warrants attention.

[TURN3]

you do make a good point.

so would you have given Helio 3rd place? or 2nd place?

How would you treat the post race melt down?


That is the tough part about it, Helio's "move" changed 2nd place. Typically, that is too bad and Helio would've been obligated to give up 1 position. Different scenario but that is what they did to Dixon at Barber. He passed before the line (questionable call because inside line moved before outside line) and they made him give up 2 or 3 spots to get behind the car he supposedly passed (which was Helio I believe).

Helio's post race melt down was inexcusable, especially since what he was penalized for was universally accepted by the other drivers that were in the meeting. Regardless if he was right or wrong, being professional take priority. Look how PT reacted when he felt (right or wrong) that the 500 was taken from him. Helio looked like a half man version of Danica yesterday and I think Roger will have something to say about that behavior ultimately.

[TURN3]

Having a rule that prohibits a driver from making at least one move to defend their position, disqualifies the series from being called "racing", IMO.

If the product is SO BAD you need rules like 9.3(B), just flush the whole thing along with all the other turds.

There is no doubt Helio violated the rule (that should not exist) and that placing his hands on officials also warrants attention.

Blocking is European style racing, generally speaking. I know it is the lay of the land in NASCAR now too but generally not in American open wheel. I don't think you should be allowed even 1 move to impede another driver BUT, you should be allowed to choose a line and if that is a defensive one then so be it, make the other guy go the long way around. They way the defined blocking for this turn is not acceptable to me.

Not that I want to bring my favorite driver into the mix but another block argued earlier this year was the Danica and TK thing. What happened there? Why wasn't she instantly black flagged on a 200+ mph oval? THAT was a block yet nothing from BB. Consistency is imperative and that circus clown has none, let alone intelligence to make logical decisions.

[Civic]

Seemed like HCN and Charlie were smiling and laughing after HCN cooled down.

[libra65]

Seemed like HCN and Charlie were smiling and laughing after HCN cooled down.

Unfortunately, that doesn't alter the fact that he physically grabbed the official in the first place. Can you imagine this happening in baseball, basketball, hockey, football or futbol? There would be major suspensions & fines!!!! Somehow I think the Captain will see to it that HCN only gets a slap on the wrist.

[SarahFan]

So maybe I am in the minority here.....

Certainly his post race reaction was drama queenish...... I just don't see his touching of the official as that serious..... I can't imagine the official was feeling physically assualted afterward...

Just didn't look that way to me

[Shifter]

Even amateur sports car races allow drivers to take defensive lines into corners. Barnhardt, do you actually know anything about road racing or do you just like to play an official on TV? That 'divide the track' rule has to be the absolute dumbest racing rule ever concocted, and I'd like to think it was part of the reason ChampCar turned into such a joke in the eyes of international and European racers.

[libra65]

So maybe I am in the minority here.....

Certainly his post race reaction was drama queenish...... I just don't see his touching of the official as that serious..... I can't imagine the official was feeling physically assualted afterward...

Just didn't look that way to me

The official was probably laughing at this little runt grabbing him, but that isn't the point. In no sport do you ever grab an official and get away with it. If Paul Tracy grabbed an official like that, the guy could have been seriously injured. So do you penalize PT more harshly just because he is bigger? No! Players/racers have to show respect to the officials in sports even if you don't respect their decisions.

[NickFalzone]

My take on it short and simple:

1. Barnhart specifically noted this rule about blocking (and probably blocking in T1) in the driver's meeting.
2. Helio was not paying much attention in the driver's meeting, as many driver's regularly do not. I've heard this mentioned before.
3. Helio likes to block and does it probably more often than most other drivers.
4. Barnhart saw the scenario going into green-T1 well-ahead of time and probably had his finger on the "buzzer". Anything off line and Helio was going to get nailed.
5. Helio sort of had in the back of his head how much he could get away with, without getting penalized. He blocked, but to his mind, a fair block that would not get him into trouble.
6. Barnhart was ready for any minor block and nailed him. Helio was very pissed because he probably pulled back on his blocking and thought what he did was within the "interpretation" and judgement of the rules.
7. Helio, feeling justifiably pissed, went after the officials including Kevin Blanche and Charles the security guy. I dont think what he did was in any way positive for his team, his sponsors, or the league, but I do not think he deserves further penalty. I do not think he deserves further penalty simply because the original penalty was so far out of line in the first place.

[harvick#1]

Even amateur sports car races allow drivers to take defensive lines into corners. Barnhardt, do you actually know anything about road racing or do you just like to play an official on TV? That 'divide the track' rule has to be the absolute dumbest racing rule ever concocted, and I'd like to think it was part of the reason ChampCar turned into such a joke in the eyes of international and European racers.

I think the reason for the penalty was because they were on the runway!!! Helio clearly blocks Will since the runway is about a 7-10 car lengths wide. and Helio just seemed to put his car right in front.

who'd thunk that 3 races this week all had controversy of "team orders" and 2 black flags for blocking late in the race

[SarahFan]

The official was probably laughing at this little runt grabbing him, but that isn't the point. In no sport do you ever grab an official and get away with it. If Paul Tracy grabbed an official like that, the guy could have been seriously injured. So do you penalize PT more harshly just because he is bigger? No! Players/racers have to show respect to the officials in sports even if you don't respect their decisions.


I don't think this has anything to do with helio or pauls size....

It simply didn't appear to be an assault by nature


More like pleading

[SUBARUTEAM]

Even amateur sports car races allow drivers to take defensive lines into corners. Barnhardt, do you actually know anything about road racing or do you just like to play an official on TV? That 'divide the track' rule has to be the absolute dumbest racing rule ever concocted, and I'd like to think it was part of the reason ChampCar turned into such a joke in the eyes of international and European racers.

Barnhardt had nothing to do with champcar

[NickFalzone]

Havent watched this all thru, but VS put up a post-race video of the incident which included an interview w/ BB:

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[NickFalzone]

Although I'm not entirely on one side of the decision or another, I do think it's interesting to point out that both the IMS radio guys and the VS broadcast guys, both said that they disagreed with the call at the time it happened, that it did not appear that Helio made an overt blocking maneuver. To me that says something, particularly since you have former drivers like Hamilton, Beekhuis, and Buhl stating their opinions here that the call was over the top. I still think Barnhart "technically" made the right decision, but his judgement was wrong to make it in this case, and particularly since there are likely to be many more cases just on Sunday's race where this decision was not applied. As I said earlier, I think that the "league official(s)" saw this move by Will, and block by Helio, well before the green and turn into T1. What they anticipated, roughly happened as expected, and so they nailed him. But I think he could have been a lot dirtier about his blocking, and on the last lap of the race what he did should be construed as just fighting for the win. Just my two cents on this.

[SarahFan]

Although I'm not entirely on one side of the decision or another, I do think it's interesting to point out that both the IMS radio guys and the VS broadcast guys, both said that they disagreed with the call at the time it happened, that it did not appear that Helio made an overt blocking maneuver. To me that says something, particularly since you have former drivers like Hamilton, Beekhuis, and Buhl stating their opinions here that the call was over the top. I still think Barnhart "technically" made the right decision, but his judgement was wrong to make it in this case, and particularly since there are likely to be many more cases just on Sunday's race where this decision was not applied. As I said earlier, I think that the "league official(s)" saw this move by Will, and block by Helio, well before the green and turn into T1. What they anticipated, roughly happened as expected, and so they nailed him. But I think he could have been a lot dirtier about his blocking, and on the last lap of the race what he did should be construed as just fighting for the win. Just my two cents on this.

yep....

[Shifter]

Barnhardt had nothing to do with champcar

No, but the passing rules were exactly the same, apparently.

[SUBARUTEAM]

No, but the passing rules were exactly the same, apparently.

so did anyone complain about champcar?

[TURN3]

If I remember correctly, Champ Car had a one move rule. You could make one defensive move and that was it. There were a couple of tracks (I believe Toronto and maybe Cleveland) where they painted a line. You had to commit to a lane before you got to that line and then you couldn't cross it. That was a deal that was limited to just a few corners on the entire series.

[garyshell]

If I remember correctly, Champ Car had a one move rule. You could make one defensive move and that was it. There were a couple of tracks (I believe Toronto and maybe Cleveland) where they painted a line. You had to commit to a lane before you got to that line and then you couldn't cross it. That was a deal that was limited to just a few corners on the entire series.


I think the first time was at San Jose, the first year.

Gary

[mileman]

Now that Helio and I have calmed down - and I've read the opinions and listened to the racing shows - it appears that the problem is with the rule and not the call. Most people, after learning of the rule instructions stated in the driver's meeting, seem to agree that the technical rule was somehow broken. Virtually all of these same people (commentators, drivers, etc.) also think this is the dumbest rule they've ever seen. They are flabbergasted by its silly attempt to actually restrict the racing. What ever happened to the simple "one move" rule that many of us thought was in play?

[Scotty G.]

It simply didn't appear to be an assault by nature


More like pleading



Doesn't have to considered an "assault". Its still dead wrong to EVER touch an official in a sport. I don't care how swell a guy Helio might be.

OK, he was "pleading".

Do baseball managers get to put both hands on a umpire "pleading" to change a call?

Do football coaches get to put both hands on a official "pleading" to get a holding penalty called?

Does Landon Donovan get to put both hands on a official "pleading" a offsides call?

Does Serena Williams get to put both hands on a official "pleading" a out call?


Nope. And if they did this, they'd all be sent directly to the showers and in a few cases, likely sat down for multiple ensuing games.

Helio was dead wrong.

[Easy Drifter]

I am beginning to think that IC is like the old USAC. We did it this way 30 years ago and it was right then so it is right now. I dealt with those officials.
When IC puts a rule in place for one track and specific instance they then seem to apply it everywhere wether it makes sense or not.
Their way of running road races for yellow flags the same as at ovals is one example. Many times a local yellow would suffice rather than full course yellows. Again the closed pit rule need not be applied on all road courses.
The lack of sufficient safety vehicles on road courses is yet another example when there are often quite competent local crews. Why not use cranes. A perfect location would be the end of Lakeshore Drive (turn 3) in Toronto. They have the other half of Lakeshore Drive it could move along. It would sure speed up getting disabled cars clear of the track. There are plenty of other spots they could be used.
I do not propose using a crane on a stalled car but one that is undrivable.
Maybe make Scott Goodyear chief steward. You would have an experienced unflappable ex driver and would get him out of the broadcast booth. A win win situation!

[chuck34]

So maybe I am in the minority here.....

Certainly his post race reaction was drama queenish...... I just don't see his touching of the official as that serious..... I can't imagine the official was feeling physically assualted afterward...

Just didn't look that way to me

In this case you are certainly right, Charles wasn't really too badly physically assulted. But that doesn't, or at least shouldn't, matter. As I keep saying, touching is usually the line that is drawn. Also I missed it yesterday, but he also lightly pushed Rocket as well. Two officials should really be something.

[SarahFan]

'dead wrong'...?

come on... Helio's the drama queeen, not you

[Chris R]

you know, we talk about how boring our drivers have become in this age of sponsor/media controlled sports and then someone shows a sign of being a real live human being and he is suddenly a terrible person...

Personally, the shot I saw it looked like the guy Helio grabbed was having a pretty good laugh about the whole thing...

He was not right to physically touch someone - but this is one of those things where he should get a fine, a good official talking to behind closed doors, and a out of the side of the mouth "atta-boy" as he leaves the trailer... at least he cares enough about the sport to get worked up about it.....

The rule was intended to enable passing by making it against the rules to push someone off the track.... it might not be perfect but the fans want passing and ultimately that is what the "blocking" rules are about... Helio's bad judgement was about not taking the penalty when it was assessed... The after the race hissy fit - good for him I am glad someone is alive out there..... no harm done and apparently no malice intended.....

[SarahFan]

no harm done and apparently no malice intended.....

that sums it up right there!

[Will Rogers]

Maybe make Scott Goodyear chief steward. You would have an experienced unflappable ex driver and would get him out of the broadcast booth. A win win situation![/QUOTE]

Even better--let Scott and Robbie Buhl share the job and get both of them out of the booth!

[wedge]

Stupid rule in the first place.

[Easy Drifter]

Norris McDonald the Toronto Star's motorsport writer (and former racer, super mods) has interesting comments in his Toronto Star Blog. Among other comments he figures at least half the field in Toronto could have been black flagged for blocking going into turn 3.
He says he is going to set up a camera next year and record all the 'blocks' and then post them.
Stupid rule especially at a track like Edmonton with a 200 foot wide approach to the turn. Only a non racer could dream something like that up.

[FIAT1]

Joke, nothing more then amateur garbage. This thing is going down fast.

[Chris R]

How about make AJ Foyt the chief steward?? You've got an old time racer who'll let 'em race and won't be afraid to bang some heads together when necessary..... I know he is getting old - but if he can do it for a year or two it might not be a bad idea.... then follow up AJ with Paul Tracy - my though being put real non-nonsense racers in that position and it might just work.... Wally did a great job for a number of years for CART.....

even better - put Tommy Kendall in charge - all on track disputes to be settled with a chicken car race!!!

[garyshell]

Doesn't have to considered an "assault". Its still dead wrong to EVER touch an official in a sport. I don't care how swell a guy Helio might be.

OK, he was "pleading".

Do baseball managers get to put both hands on a umpire "pleading" to change a call?

Do football coaches get to put both hands on a official "pleading" to get a holding penalty called?

Does Landon Donovan get to put both hands on a official "pleading" a offsides call?

Does Serena Williams get to put both hands on a official "pleading" a out call?


Nope. And if they did this, they'd all be sent directly to the showers and in a few cases, likely sat down for multiple ensuing games.

Helio was dead wrong.

In all of your examples the person being "grabbed" is the person who made the call. The guy Helio "grabbed" was not that person. Helio knew that. The guy knew that. He did not grab an official involved in the decision. He grabbed the head of security. Until he weighs in all this hand wringing is meaningless. If the words from Helios mouth were along the lines of "Joe (or whatever the guys name is, I haven't been able to find it) can you believe what they just did to me out there? I had that race ...", then I think it was nothing more than venting to a friend. The collar grab is not uncommon in such situations, especially outside the US which has this "personal space" zone around us all. Physical displays of emotion like that are widely excepted in some cultures. However, if the words out of Helio's mouth were of a different nature, threatening the guy, blaming him for the call, etc then Helio needs to be sanctioned. The pictures, without context, mean diddly squat.

Like I said, until the security guy weighs in on this it is all small talk.

Gary

[DBell]

I think the first time was at San Jose, the first year.

Gary

I remember it being the last year at San Jose. They painted a white line at the end of the straight leading into the turn dividing the inside and out side line of the braking zone. The drivers had to pick one or the other, and would penalized for crossing the line. It was different from IndyCar's rule of you have to take this line and this line only. It did really improve the race that year with Robert Doornbos making several passes, including one for the lead if I recall. Before that, SJ had always been a processional race

[garyshell]

I remember it being the last year at San Jose. They painted a white line at the end of the straight leading into the turn dividing the inside and out side line of the braking zone. The drivers had to pick one or the other, and would penalized for crossing the line. It was different from IndyCar's rule of you have to take this line and this line only. It did really improve the race that year with Robert Doornbos making several passes, including one for the lead if I recall. Before that, SJ had always been a processional race

I think you are right. It was in answer to trying to make the track a bit more racy.

Gary

[D28]

I
Their way of running road races for yellow flags the same as at ovals is one example. Many times a local yellow would suffice rather than full course yellows. Again the closed pit rule need not be applied on all road courses.


As a casual observer of US type racing, the major irritant is the use of full course safety car periods. I have long suspected that organizers use these to set up am exciting finish. To my mind, both the Brickyard 400 and the Edmonton Indy were ruined by last period full course yellows.
For the amount of debree at Indy, I thought one lap of safety car would be enough.

At Edmonton, I thought Silvestro pulled far enough on the grass that local yellows would suffice. On looking again, she may have been on the outside of a corner and a danger to the others, it's hard to tell from the angle.
To you in the know, was a full course yellow necessary at Edmonton, and similarly at Indy?

[call_me_andrew]

As a casual observer of US type racing, the major irritant is the use of full course safety car periods. I have long suspected that organizers use these to set up am exciting finish. To my mind, both the Brickyard 400 and the Edmonton Indy were ruined by last period full course yellows.
For the amount of debree at Indy, I thought one lap of safety car would be enough.

At Edmonton, I thought Silvestro pulled far enough on the grass that local yellows would suffice. On looking again, she may have been on the outside of a corner and a danger to the others, it's hard to tell from the angle.
To you in the know, was a full course yellow necessary at Edmonton, and similarly at Indy?

1. There's no such thing as "one lap of safety car" anywhere. The pits are closed when the yellow comes out, and everyone must have an opportunity to pit before green. I'm not sure what the IRL's policy is anymore, but NASCAR staggers pit stops between lead lap and lap down cars so the lap down cars are always behind the leaders; therefore, every caution takes 3 laps (minimum).

2. There's no such thing as "far enough on the grass". Murphy's law dictates that anything that can go wrong will go wrong. So unless a car is actually shielded by a wall, it presents a danger.

This type of thing would never be tolerated in American racing:

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m315/mustang6172/ontrack.jpg

[anthonyvop]

2. There's no such thing as "far enough on the grass". Murphy's law dictates that anything that can go wrong will go wrong. So unless a car is actually shielded by a wall, it presents a danger.

A local yellow would have been sufficient.


This type of thing would never be tolerated in American racing:


The SCCA seems to be OK with local yellows so you are wrong.

[SUBARUTEAM]

imagine the law suit if they don't go full course yellow and a track worker (eg a Volunteer) gets run over and killed while helping the driver out of the car.

sorry but there is no option but to go full course yellow if a car is off course.

[D28]

imagine the law suit if they don't go full course yellow and a track worker (eg a Volunteer) gets run over and killed while helping the driver out of the car.

sorry but there is no option but to go full course yellow if a car is off course.

I would have thought that workers sign a waiver that they accept the dangers and risks of motor racing, and such lawsuits would not be possible.

[Easy Drifter]

Before I raced I was a marshal. We used to go not only trackside but onto a hot track if needed. Most of the marshal stations were unprotected or barely so. There has been vast improvements there.
I know things have changed and speeds are much higher but on a road course there are acceptable risks. Trained marshals have as much awareness of cars as do crew men in hot pits.
As Starter says the marshals in Europe go trackside or even on track all the time even today.

[call_me_andrew]

I would have thought that workers sign a waiver that they accept the dangers and risks of motor racing, and such lawsuits would not be possible.

People sue all the time just to challenge the validity of such wavers.

[SUBARUTEAM]

Obviously you've never been a track worker. You might want to ask some of the people who do it what their opinion is. This is the wrong place to go into a detailed discussion, but you are way wrong on this. I will also assure you that any time ANY participant in a motor race, track worker - driver - crew person, is seriously injured or killed there will be law suits. You can't trip over your own feet in the grocery store without somebody getting sued. It's whether they are winnable or not.

actually I have been involved in motorsport for a number of years, both as a driver and a marshall.

I understand the risks as well as (if not better then) anyone here.

I am not offering an opinion on this - i am simply stating a fact. If a spectator or marshall gets killed at an IRL event in the USA - the sh*t will hit the fan. as an event organiser - they will be liabile for any law suit (and not only the company - but the individual)

Here in NZ, there was a cycle road race and one of the competitors managed to get himself killed (he was on the wrong side of the roadand got hit by a car). the organiser (individual) was found guilty of man slaughter in the courts.

we should start a new thread for this as we're getting off the topic

[D28]

[quote="
As Starter says the marshals in Europe go trackside or even on track all the time even today.[/QUOTE"]

True, a very recent F1 race witnessed a worker dashing on track to remove debris (maybe a bottle), with waved yellows only. Martin Brundle commented on his bravery. F1 cars are much quicker than any we are discussing here.

[SUBARUTEAM]

True, a very recent F1 race witnessed a worker dashing on track to remove debris (maybe a bottle), with waved yellows only. Martin Brundle commented on his bravery. F1 cars are much quicker than any we are discussing here.


go on to youtube and see some of the footage of track marshalls getting killed and then tell me that you only want to see local yellows.

[Easy Drifter]

Ditto Starter. And I worked trackside for 3 years. I also worked as pit exit flagger for a open F1 practice with my only protection my red and green flags and a radio to the control tower.