Big announcement on Chassis and a Road to Indy program with USAC [Archive]

Mark in Oshawa

13th July 2010, 23:17

Scotty G.

13th July 2010, 23:33

http://www.nationalspeedsportnews.com/node.php?author=22&type=blog&id=4727

According to the link I found from my FB news feed, NSSN has a story on how tomorrow Bernard and the IRL will release the details on the new car and how they will sponsor a USAC champion into the IRL or something to that effect.

IN short, meeting my main priority (opening up the car/engine rules) and Scotty's...(getting more OW guys from USAC land). Hopefully they can prove me wrong and be competitive. I still think the evolution of who gets these rides is based more on the skill set you get from driving rear engined formulae on road courses as opposed to Sprint cars on dirt or ashphalt. Regardless, if they are given a shot, it is theirs to do with right?

Mark, I think we actually are kinda on the same base here.

I would put the top 4 or 5 drivers from USAC up against anyone, from any genre, as far as pure racing talent.

Give the TOP guys a legit shot with a stable team, who will give them the finances and team to work with, and they will adapt.

What we saw in the late 90's and early 2000's were usually not the "top" guys and gals from USAC. Carpenter was a decent USAC driver, but never a top guy. Fisher was so young that she didn't have time to develop in USAC. Kite was not a top guy. Beechler was good, but not great.

Stewart was the best guy. And he adapted quickly. Hamilton was a top super modified guy. He adapted quickly. Boat was really good and it didn't take him long once he got with Foyt's team (although he did have some Indy Lights experience in the late 80's). The other top guys (Irwin, Newman, Kahne, Gordon, Yeley) went to NASCAR.

Just like if you give a Hinchcliffe or a Morad or a Wickens a legit shot with a stable team and finances, that they will adapt as well.

Its very smart what Bernard is attempting to do. We have seen this "lip service" from the early IRL too. A few guys got shots and a few got tests, but it was a whole lot of hot air and the AOW oval fandom lost interest quickly.

Its also very smart to go after the best young American/Canadian road racers as well. Conor Daly (if the Euro aspirations don't work out) NEEDS to be here. Daniel Morad NEEDS to be here. John Edwards NEEDS to be here. And I think Bernard knows it and wants to do something about it.

Bernard wants more of the "BEST" in this sport. Good for him for wanting that.

SarahFan

14th July 2010, 00:07

Scotty.....honest question

how much does a top USAc driver make ?

Are they making 1 or 2 mil a year?

Scotty G.

14th July 2010, 00:34

Scotty.....honest question

how much does a top USAc driver make ?

Are they making 1 or 2 mil a year?

Are the top guys making money and being paid to drive by owners? Yes. Are they living a comfortable life just from racing? Some are. Are they making millions? No way.

The top guys in USAC's midgets/sprints/silver crown series are professional race drivers. That's their profession. Some of the youngsters are on Ford or Toyota's payroll or are a part of a NASCAR developmental program, so they might be making a little more off of that. But the Tracy Hines or Dave Darlands (the older veterans) of USAC are paid guns whose primary finances come from their racing results.

the bro

14th July 2010, 01:22

Assisting younger drivers is the way to go. If they need a program to pattern it after they should look at the Players driver development program from the 90's. That program was responsible for the many Canadian drivers that made it to Indycar. They had a program right from go karts to Indycar.

Easy Drifter

14th July 2010, 01:40

The top half dozen WOO drivers make a reasonable living especially ones like Steve Kinser and Donny Schatz, both of whom drive for Tony Stewart.
Some of the young Outlaws could adapt. Steve and even Donny are too old. Steve has driven at Indy in a 3rd rate car.

Mark in Oshawa

14th July 2010, 08:08

Mark, I think we actually are kinda on the same base here.

I would put the top 4 or 5 drivers from USAC up against anyone, from any genre, as far as pure racing talent.

Give the TOP guys a legit shot with a stable team, who will give them the finances and team to work with, and they will adapt.

What we saw in the late 90's and early 2000's were usually not the "top" guys and gals from USAC. Carpenter was a decent USAC driver, but never a top guy. Fisher was so young that she didn't have time to develop in USAC. Kite was not a top guy. Beechler was good, but not great.

Stewart was the best guy. And he adapted quickly. Hamilton was a top super modified guy. He adapted quickly. Boat was really good and it didn't take him long once he got with Foyt's team (although he did have some Indy Lights experience in the late 80's). The other top guys (Irwin, Newman, Kahne, Gordon, Yeley) went to NASCAR.

Just like if you give a Hinchcliffe or a Morad or a Wickens a legit shot with a stable team and finances, that they will adapt as well.

Its very smart what Bernard is attempting to do. We have seen this "lip service" from the early IRL too. A few guys got shots and a few got tests, but it was a whole lot of hot air and the AOW oval fandom lost interest quickly.

Its also very smart to go after the best young American/Canadian road racers as well. Conor Daly (if the Euro aspirations don't work out) NEEDS to be here. Daniel Morad NEEDS to be here. John Edwards NEEDS to be here. And I think Bernard knows it and wants to do something about it.

Bernard wants more of the "BEST" in this sport. Good for him for wanting that.

I said when Bernard was hired he was going to make this thing go or die trying. If he has you and I on the same page, he is doing something right.

I think the rub comes in the money. Where will the money come to fund the top USAC young stars to come over to the IRL and not get their clocks cleaned until they figure out that this car doesn't like to slide? I have no doubt a great racing driver can adapt to anything, but the problem will lie in getting these guys in cars. Bernard cannot be funding the whole exercise out of the IRL coffers, I think that was tried and it is the reason Tony George has to buy tickets to sit in the family race track.

Corporate America is the real villian. They have abandoned this sport, and on business grounds maybe it is justified, but I do think it is a short sighted thing to do, and to spend the money to grow a sport and grow with it into a marketing effort that pays back down the road I think should be sold. I hope Randy does it.

anthonyvop

14th July 2010, 15:04

chuck34

14th July 2010, 15:13

Mark in Oshawa

14th July 2010, 17:50

You cannot be more wrong. The only "villain" here is the IRL who have produced a poor product.
Why would any company look the the IRL 10 years ago and invest to make it grow when there was no sign of it happening?

If the USAC rumors are true it may attract some potential sponsors but it will drive away others. Business is business.

So Randy should just stick his head under a pillow and cry until the world stops? The IRL is in a fight for its life, and you figure they are doomed. That's great, I am rooting for them to get back out of the hole, you seem to be a vulture waiting for the heart to stop beating...

MDS

14th July 2010, 18:03

Mark, I think we actually are kinda on the same base here.

I would put the top 4 or 5 drivers from USAC up against anyone, from any genre, as far as pure racing talent.

Give the TOP guys a legit shot with a stable team, who will give them the finances and team to work with, and they will adapt.

What we saw in the late 90's and early 2000's were usually not the "top" guys and gals from USAC. Carpenter was a decent USAC driver, but never a top guy. Fisher was so young that she didn't have time to develop in USAC. Kite was not a top guy. Beechler was good, but not great.

Stewart was the best guy. And he adapted quickly. Hamilton was a top super modified guy. He adapted quickly. Boat was really good and it didn't take him long once he got with Foyt's team (although he did have some Indy Lights experience in the late 80's). The other top guys (Irwin, Newman, Kahne, Gordon, Yeley) went to NASCAR.

Just like if you give a Hinchcliffe or a Morad or a Wickens a legit shot with a stable team and finances, that they will adapt as well.

Its very smart what Bernard is attempting to do. We have seen this "lip service" from the early IRL too. A few guys got shots and a few got tests, but it was a whole lot of hot air and the AOW oval fandom lost interest quickly.

Its also very smart to go after the best young American/Canadian road racers as well. Conor Daly (if the Euro aspirations don't work out) NEEDS to be here. Daniel Morad NEEDS to be here. John Edwards NEEDS to be here. And I think Bernard knows it and wants to do something about it.

Bernard wants more of the "BEST" in this sport. Good for him for wanting that.

I don't think that USAC Drivers have the skills to run in today's ICS because USAC drivers don't have the road course chops, and if there's one thing Danica, Sarah Fisher, Ed Carpenter and others have taught us, 20-years-olds who don't have an extensive road course background have a difficult time adapting to turning right and left on the same track.

As far as your list of drivers, Robert Wickens and Daniel Morad aren't ready to give up on their Formula 1 dreams yet, its a sin that Conor Daly and James Hinchcliff wasn't in the ICS this year, and John Edwards deserves a ride, but got sidetracked when Newman Wachs evaporated this year.

But I'll add to your list a host of other drivers, Jeff Newgarden, Sergio Perez, Conner de Phillipi, Andrew Ranger, Michael McDowell, and the list goes on and on...

Mark in Oshawa

14th July 2010, 18:08

I don't think that USAC Drivers have the skills to run in today's ICS because USAC drivers don't have the road course chops, and if there's one thing Danica, Sarah Fisher, Ed Carpenter and others have taught us, 20-years-olds who don't have an extensive road course background have a difficult time adapting to turning right and left on the same track.

As far as your list of drivers, Robert Wickens and Daniel Morad aren't ready to give up on their Formula 1 dreams yet, its a sin that Conor Daly and James Hinchcliff wasn't in the ICS this year, and John Edwards deserves a ride, but got sidetracked when Newman Wachs evaporated this year.

But I'll add to your list a host of other drivers, Jeff Newgarden, Sergio Perez, Conner de Phillipi, Andrew Ranger, Michael McDowell, and the list goes on and on...

umm Danica has road course experience. She was a karter and ran Formula Ford. The fact she sucks on road courses proves once again her liabilities as a driver.

USAC guys can make the transition if they want to, it is that simple. Up until now, I don't think they really have wanted to do any race but Indy. The problem is, no team is going to put a guy in the car just for the purpose of running Indy, and then get someone else to run the rest of the series.

bblocker68

14th July 2010, 18:27

How will these USAC kids do on road courses? I'm asking because I dont know.

Jag_Warrior

14th July 2010, 18:33

Corporate America is the real villian. They have abandoned this sport, and on business grounds maybe it is justified, but I do think it is a short sighted thing to do, and to spend the money to grow a sport and grow with it into a marketing effort that pays back down the road I think should be sold. I hope Randy does it.

Why would you single out corporate America when the grid isn't exactly filled with sponsors of any nationality, including Canadian and Mexican sponsors? And no matter who you include, I go back to what I've been saying for years (nearly a decade): cutting costs is fine AS LONG AS you retain or enhance value. Since that hasn't happened, why would a company (especially a public company) dump money into something that's lost money since its inception and has seen ratings fall year after year after year? That would just be a good way for a marketing VP to get fired.

NASCAR gets it. F1 gets it: if you offer sponsors a reason to sponsor (ROI), they will. Apparently the IRL still doesn't get it, just as CCWS didn't get it: if all you have to offer is a wing & a prayer and empty promises, they'll take a pass.

Hopefully Bernard will be able to convince sponsors that he's serious and sincere. But still, actions speak louder than words. If this new (modular?) chassis and this outreach to USAC will help to mend some fences, then that's great. What I'm waiting for is the announcement on who is REALLY going to provide engines. If there are one or two besides Honda and those sponsorships get activated, then that will mean something. But if it's just going to be unbadged Cosworths and Hondas, not so much, IMO.

anthonyvop

14th July 2010, 19:32

Why would anyone be driven away?

Demographics. USAC has a certain type of fan. Many products would not sponsor anything having to do with USAC as it would have a terrible ROI.

anthonyvop

14th July 2010, 19:33

So Randy should just stick his head under a pillow and cry until the world stops? The IRL is in a fight for its life, and you figure they are doomed. That's great, I am rooting for them to get back out of the hole, you seem to be a vulture waiting for the heart to stop beating...

I never said that.

I do say that hitching up with USAC would be a big mistake.

Scotty G.

15th July 2010, 04:23

I don't think that USAC Drivers have the skills to run in today's ICS because USAC drivers don't have the road course chops.

Who are 3 of the best and fastest road racers in NASCAR?

Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart and Kasey Kahne.

They all came from the same background.

They adapted. Why? They are really good. They are fast. They are true talents. And its not easy to wrestle those huge stock car beasts around Watkins Glen or Sonoma either. Just ask guys like Allmendinger, Papis and all the other so called "top" road racers that have been in NASCAR. They regularly can't/couldn't run with Stewart or Kahne on a twisty.

Why couldn't Ed Carpenter or Sarah Fisher adapt? They weren't great USAC drivers. They were midpack talents in USAC, when they were there.

The best USAC guys (the Clauson's, the East's, the Boat's).... They would eventually be just fine on road courses. Just like the best guys from USAC in the 60's and 70's were. And they would kick ass on ovals, just like the best guys from USAC ALWAYS have in any era.

Mark in Oshawa

15th July 2010, 09:11

I never said that.

I do say that hitching up with USAC would be a big mistake.

You never said it but you are loathe to find anything positive about anything this series does, so I am pretty much of the opinion nothing makes you happy except the demise of the series.

AS for hitching up with USAC, I think it is more a case of telling USAC guys that the IRL will assist you in getting tests and attention for open seats and they may bankroll a few of the guys. I don't think the IRL wants the USAC brass having any real say.

Mark in Oshawa

15th July 2010, 09:17

Who are 3 of the best and fastest road racers in NASCAR?

Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart and Kasey Kahne.

They all came from the same background.

They adapted. Why? They are really good. They are fast. They are true talents. And its not easy to wrestle those huge stock car beasts around Watkins Glen or Sonoma either. Just ask guys like Allmendinger, Papis and all the other so called "top" road racers that have been in NASCAR. They regularly can't/couldn't run with Stewart or Kahne on a twisty.

Why couldn't Ed Carpenter or Sarah Fisher adapt? They weren't great USAC drivers. They were midpack talents in USAC, when they were there.

The best USAC guys (the Clauson's, the East's, the Boat's).... They would eventually be just fine on road courses. Just like the best guys from USAC in the 60's and 70's were. And they would kick ass on ovals, just like the best guys from USAC ALWAYS have in any era.

Papis hasn't done well because his team isn't doing well..and I don't think he is a top road racer. Never did really....nice guy though.

Dinger? A disappointment, but then again, the team he races for hasn't always reached for the stars at times either. Kahne's performances indicate to me he is a true talent, maybe better than we think.

I think any great driver can make the jump if they have the right mindset and style. Smoke, Gordon (Jeff) and Kahne are all excellent on all tracks, but they are still sliding the cars. They didn't come from a car like Dinger or Papis did where aero is so much more a factor and the cars are not designed to slide and be effective. It is a far more tighter envelope in driving a modern Indycar. They don't corner with lots of yaw, slip angles on the tires and weight transfer. They do have AERO...and lots more grip. It is a different beast altogether. A sprint car guy drives a car with lots of weight transfer, high drift angles and deals with loose and wrecking loose suspensions and has to tune them.

It is a different game. Not that it cannot be done, but it comes back to how much stuff is the new guy who was a sprint car driver going to tear up before he gets it? Just like NASCAR teams usually lose patience with IRL guys who tear up stuff until they get it. It isn't that the drivers are bad, but only a few make the jump and make it look easy. It is a mental shift that some cannot make ( Danica, step right up!) to NASCAR, and it is the same shift that really effects some sprint car guys.

Scotty G.

15th July 2010, 15:29

but it comes back to how much stuff is the new guy who was a sprint car driver going to tear up before he gets it?

Probably no more then Sato, Moraes, Viso, Briscoe, Scheckter, Matsurra, Conway and Taylor did.

anthonyvop

15th July 2010, 15:50

You never said it but you are loathe to find anything positive about anything this series does, so I am pretty much of the opinion nothing makes you happy except the demise of the series.

.

Then you haven't been reading my posts.

Considering the situation of the economy and the state of the IRL I believe that the new chassis formula was the right choice.

My criticisms of the IRL have not been for the sake of hurting the series but instead to offer my opinion in the form of constructive criticism to help rescue what was once my favorite form of racing.

garyshell

15th July 2010, 16:10

Then you haven't been reading my posts.

Considering the situation of the economy and the state of the IRL I believe that the new chassis formula was the right choice.

My criticisms of the IRL have not been for the sake of hurting the series but instead to offer my opinion in the form of constructive criticism to help rescue what was once my favorite form of racing.

Uh huh, sure... if you say so.

Gary

anthonyvop

15th July 2010, 19:29

Uh huh, sure... if you say so.

Gary

I have posted what I believe the IRL should do and continue to defend those ideas. You just support those who agree with you and bash those who don't.

So here is your chance. Lets pretend you are in charge. What would you do?

Mark in Oshawa

15th July 2010, 21:09

IF I am in charge, I would have been far more libreal in what was allowed to be hung on that spec safety cell. I would have let the manufacturers not just supply the body work, but supply the suspension bits and all the rest in kits available to the teams. If a team paid for the R and D, they might be allowed a 6 month window of exclusitivity.

I think the lack of capital in the series drove this decision into just the bodywork, but I think they needed to allow more of the nuts and bolts to be individualized.

I think as a whole though, the decision they made was made because all the stake holders involved felt this was the one they should agree on. I would have liked to see Randy override this to an extent, but he isn't a racing guy (although seems to grasp where he needs to go) and I think he saw this as the best course.

Tony, you have said a lot over the last year, but the only message's I can remember are mainly negative no matter what the IRL does, so forgive me If I see you as a pessimist because for the most part, that has been your persona.

anthonyvop

15th July 2010, 23:59

Tony, you have said a lot over the last year, but the only message's I can remember are mainly negative no matter what the IRL does, so forgive me If I see you as a pessimist because for the most part, that has been your persona.

Be honest.

Has there been much to be positive about?

Mark in Oshawa

16th July 2010, 00:30

Be honest.

Has there been much to be positive about?

Yes, Randy Bernard for starters. The creation of ICONIC. The fact they have leadership that acknowledges that they need to bring a new car to the table. The fact they are going to go to new ovals as well as to new venues. The fact they are going to try and reconnect with the lost fan base in the USAC crowd.

I am cautiously optimistic because despite the stupid TV coverage and contract, this series isn't going away. We have 24 to 28 cars some weekends, and we had an actual bumping at Indy (just ask PT how that felt)....

The health of the series isn't going to leave Bernie Ecclestone lying awake at night, but I do think that the positives are starting to outweigh the negative. When the narcissistic fantasyland of Tony George was brought to a halt, it wasn't going to be cleaned up over night. It took 15 years to run this sport into a ditch where it sits when Randy came to it, but they are slowly making evolutionary change. It cannot happen over night....it didn't slide into this overnight...

anthonyvop

16th July 2010, 04:26

[quote="Mark in Oshawa"]Yes, Randy Bernard for starters. The creation of ICONIC. The fact they have leadership that acknowledges that they need to bring a new car to the table. The fact they are going to go to new ovals as well as to new venues. The fact they are going to try and reconnect with the lost fan base in the USAC crowd.

I said "much" and I totally disagree that more ovals and connecting with the USAC crowd is a good thing.

BTW Even my mother new a new car was needed.

e2mtt

17th July 2010, 18:28

Its clearly a mid-west thing... this USAC worship. To the rest of the world, it's just another small-time low-budget local racing league. The USAC may be "open-wheeled", but I know they drive much more like a late-model modified then they do a formula car. Indycars are formula cars.

Scotty G.

17th July 2010, 22:19

1. This USAC worship. To the rest of the world, it's just another small-time low-budget local racing league.

2. Indycars are formula cars.

1. Who gives a damn about the rest of the world?

USAC is a American open wheel racing series, based in the midwest.

Indy Car is a American open wheel racing series, based in the midwest.

For about 50 or 60 years, both worked together and USAC's drivers provided the bulk of competitors in Indy Car. Not some Euro-centric F1 junior series.

2. Yes, and nobody watches "formula cars" in this country. Certainly nobody watches them in lower formulas.

Bernard is being smart. He knows he needs the huge American oval track fanbase, that has told his series to go fly a kite. NASCAR has lost many of them. They are open wheel folks at heart. That is why he is trying to put a platform together to draw the Levi Jones's and Bryan Clauson's back to Indy Cars, where they belong.

The best American road racers with the best American oval trackers. That is what Indy Cars and the Indy 500 should be and NEED to be about again. And I hope Bernard is the guy to get that done.

anthonyvop

17th July 2010, 23:00

1. Who gives a damn about the rest of the world?

A lot of people do. Many people aren't Xenophobic.

USAC is a American open wheel racing series, based in the midwest.

Which nobody cares about. Especially those on the East or West coast.

Indy Car is a American open wheel racing series, based in the midwest.

Nope.
Indy Car is an American Formula Car series who's biggest race is in the Midwest.

For about 50 or 60 years, both worked together and USAC's drivers provided the bulk of competitors in Indy Car. Not some Euro-centric F1 junior series.

They use to work together. That hasn't been the case for over 20 years.

2. Yes, and nobody watches "formula cars" in this country. Certainly nobody watches them in lower formulas.

I would venture that more people in the US care about Formula car racing than they do about anything USAC puts out. Especially in the desired demographic.

Bernard is being smart. He knows he needs the huge American oval track fanbase, that has told his series to go fly a kite. NASCAR has lost many of them. They are open wheel folks at heart.

Have you anything to back that up? Numbers? Stats?

That is why he is trying to put a platform together to draw the Levi Jones's and Bryan Clauson's back to Indy Cars, where they belong.

Who?
Do you think that anybody outside of the rural Midwest knows or cares who Levi Jones is? Even I had to google him and he doesn't come up till page 2.

The best American road racers with the best American oval trackers. That is what Indy Cars and the Indy 500 should be and NEED to be about again. And I hope Bernard is the guy to get that done.

Ahhh...Nothing like trying to bring back the past.

Bob Riebe

18th July 2010, 03:35

[quote="anthonyvop"]A lot of people do. Many people aren't Xenophobic.
Asinine analogy.

Which nobody cares about. Especially those on the East or West coast.
Only in your small world.

Nope.
Indy Car is an American Formula Car series who's biggest race is in the Midwest.
Indy car and F-1 is open wheel racing, to deny is asinine.

I would venture that more people in the US care about Formula car racing than they do about anything USAC puts out. Especially in the desired demographic.
If you were betting money, you would lose, all of it.

Have you anything to back that up? Numbers? Stats?
He has, at least, as much as you do to back up all these opinions of yours.

Who?
Do you think that anybody outside of the rural Midwest knows or cares who Levi Jones is? Even I had to google him and he doesn't come up till page 2. l
More U.S. citizens probably know who is better than ninety percent of the drivers in Indy Car fields.

Ahhh...Nothing like trying to bring back the past.
Only people who voted for Obama see anything wrong with the past.

As nearly all, if not all, the designs used in automobiles are now one hundred or more years old, or a few years from their one hundreth birthday, the past is what really matters as the present is a pathetic cluster-f. .

The "...bring back the past..." as a negative attack is usually used by those who cannot defend their rhetoric.

anthonyvop

18th July 2010, 05:00

A lot of people do. Many people aren't Xenophobic.
Asinine analogy.

Do you know what the analogy means?

[quote=anthonyvop]Which nobody cares about. Especially those on the East or West coast.
Only in your small world.

My small world contains the majority of the US population, the Media and the majoritiy of potential sponsors. What is in yours?

[quote=anthonyvop]Nope.
Indy Car is an American Formula Car series who's biggest race is in the Midwest.
Indy car and F-1 is open wheel racing, to deny is asinine.

But to insist that there is some connection between Indy Car formula and USAC sprints is beyond asinine.

[quote=anthonyvop]I would venture that more people in the US care about Formula car racing than they do about anything USAC puts out. Especially in the desired demographic.
If you were betting money, you would lose, all of it.

Actually I am invested in it and I am doing quite well.

[quote=anthonyvop]Have you anything to back that up? Numbers? Stats?
He has, at least, as much as you do to back up all these opinions of yours.

Lets see them

[quote=anthonyvop]Who?
Do you think that anybody outside of the rural Midwest knows or cares who Levi Jones is? Even I had to google him and he doesn't come up till page 2. l
More U.S. citizens probably know who is better than ninety percent of the drivers in Indy Car fields.

You would be wrong.

[quote=anthonyvop]Ahhh...Nothing like trying to bring back the past.
Only people who voted for Obama see anything wrong with the past.

Wow! Really? Now I am an Obama supporter? Funny. Ignorant but funny.

[quote=anthonyvop]As nearly all, if not all, the designs used in automobiles are now one hundred or more years old, or a few years from their one hundreth birthday, the past is what really matters as the present is a pathetic cluster-f. .

The "...bring back the past..." as a negative attack is usually used by those who cannot defend their rhetoric.[/quote:1ejiuivx][/quote:1ejiuivx][/quote:1ejiuivx][/quote:1ejiuivx][/quote:1ejiuivx][/quote:1ejiuivx][/quote:1ejiuivx]

So explain to me how I am wrong. Explain to all of us how a successful business can survive by using the same marketing plan from 20 or 30 years ago. Tell us how marketing and the market in general hasn't changed over the last generation or so.

So tell us Mr. All motorsports marketing guru.

Bob Riebe

18th July 2010, 06:21

Do you know what the analogy means?
Apparently you do not now what analogy means, and no I will not look it for you.

My small world contains the majority of the US population, the Media and the majoritiy of potential sponsors. What is in yours?You just keep on saying that if it makes you feel good. A lot of people do that when they cannot prove their rhetoric.

But to insist that there is some connection between Indy Car formula and USAC sprints is beyond asinine.Prove it.

Actually I am invested in it and I am doing quite well. So that is why IndyCars are failing, you're connected.

Lets see them You are making unsubstantiated claims, prove them first. If you cannot, do not make empty claims.
If you have none, he has none, so if you say he has none, you are saying you have none.

You would be wrong. Prove it. You make all sorts of claims others are wrong, so prove your rhetoric, otherwise your claims are as solid as methane.

Wow! Really? Now I am an Obama supporter? Funny. Ignorant but funny. Nope, your own vacuous rhetoric makes that analogy.

So explain to me how I am wrong. Explain to all of us how a successful business can survive by using the same marketing plan from 20 or 30 years ago. Tell us how marketing and the market in general hasn't changed over the last generation or so.

So tell us Mr. All motorsports marketing guru.
If you are correct, you can prove it.
The old debate trick of-- "I do not have to prove I am correct, you have to prove I am wrong"-- always has been and will be one used when one cannot defend one's own rhetoric.

Well if you are part of the current one-- anything is better than the current pathetic crap being foisted on the public; whereas a growing portion of the public has, it seems, rejected the current modes, so I guess that makes the public, by your standards stupid, because they reject the current boring farce, you are trying to sell.
I believe the public is far smarter than the marketing twits.

vintage

18th July 2010, 21:51

Scotty G.

18th July 2010, 23:45

Please answer these questions )(as I don't know, but it should either help or kill the sprint car "popularity" argument):

What is the biggest sprint car race in the world?
How many people attend that race in one day?
What are it's TV #s?
How do those compare to the biggest IndyCar race?

These are "apples to oranges" comparisons.

Because if you tried to compare anything (NASCAR, F1, NFL, NBA, College Basketball) to the Indy 500, it would come up behind it in attendance numbers.

Now, if you compare USAC or World Of Outlaws attendance and popularity with Star Mazda, Indy Lights or F2000, that might be a more apt comparison.

The biggest sprint car race, attendance-wise, is probably the Knoxville (Iowa) Nationals. They get 35,000 for the final night. No sponsor-freebies or "party-goers" either. Just race fans.

We need to tap BACK into the American open wheel oval crowd. Those people should be OUR fans. NASCAR should not be their preference.

Bernard knows this. He sees the apathy in the sport. He sees the continuing dwindling TV numbers and sponsors.

Finding a home for a couple of the top dogs in American open wheel oval racing, in the top rung of American open wheel racing, not only makes complete sense but its sad we even have to talk about this.

And if we do, SOME of those people who helped set record crowd levels during Indiana Sprint Week this past week, will also likely start watching/attending Indy Car races again. And that is what we all want.

anthonyvop

19th July 2010, 02:10

These are "apples to oranges" comparisons.

Because if you tried to compare anything (NASCAR, F1, NFL, NBA, College Basketball) to the Indy 500, it would come up behind it in attendance numbers.

.

Why don't you compare it to the 24 hours of Le Mans? This year attendance at Le Mans was at 240,000 which probably beat Indy. Then there is the Rally Argentina which draws an estimated 1 Million spectators over 3 days.
The Dakar Rally drew the same numbers in Argentina and 1/2 a million on the Chilean side.

Also many events are limited in attendance by the size of the venue. Monaco packs them into every square inch available they could probably draw 3 times there numbers if it wasn't for space limitations.

Besides attendance isn't the end all. What about TV Numbers? Indy drew approx. 4 Million. The last Brazilian GP drew 77 million world wide. Monaco averages about 50 Million.

USAC Sprints/ Midgets / WoO aren't even on the radar.

anthonyvop

19th July 2010, 02:16

Well if you are part of the current one-- anything is better than the current pathetic crap being foisted on the public; whereas a growing portion of the public has, it seems, rejected the current modes, so I guess that makes the public, by your standards stupid, because they reject the current boring farce, you are trying to sell.

I am not part of the mess that is Indy Car. I am steering my clients away from that series as the ROI is well into the negative side of the ledger.
I am directing some clients to formula car series though.

I believe the public is far smarter than the marketing twits.

Really?
Explain these people.

http://dvice.com/pics/iphone3Glinevert.jpg

e2mtt

19th July 2010, 04:24

I think Levi Jones and Bryan Clauson know how to get to Indy if they want to. Go do some Skip Barber & Bondurant, get their personal service sponsors to sponsor some Formula runs, run some Indy Lights. However, they are both already signed with Nascar teams as development drivers. Oops. Looks like Penske & Andretti missed their chance.

SUBARUTEAM

19th July 2010, 04:32

i think milka has proven that the only thing you need to race the indy 500 is money.

by making the cars 45% cheaper, American's (or anyone else for that matter) will find it twice as easy to race at Indy.

Money is the only barrier here - make no mistake about that.

Randy and his team have done the sport a big favour by insisting on a price reduction - why tony george couldn't have done this earlier is a mistery, especially as his series was meant to be a cheap all oval series for Americans.

Scotty G.

19th July 2010, 06:21

1. I think Levi Jones and Bryan Clauson know how to get to Indy if they want to.

2. Go do some Skip Barber & Bondurant, get their personal service sponsors to sponsor some Formula runs, run some Indy Lights.

3. However, they are both already signed with Nascar teams as development drivers. Oops.

4. Looks like Penske & Andretti missed their chance.

1. Yes, with a bag full of money. I am sure they'd like to be able to write the kinds of checkos that Moraes, Sato, Viso, Conway, Romancini, Mutoh, Howard, Duno, Phillippe and Doornbos have "skillfully" written in the past 2 years.

2. And then if they kick ass in those series, get "hired" to run Indy Cars like Geibler, Hildebrand, Edwards, Summerton, Hinchcliffe and the like have in the past few years.

Here is a fact for you.....doing well and winning races in Indy Lights means NEXT-TO-NOTHING. The series is a joke, the racing teaches you nothing for what Indy Cars will be like, it has no $$$ value and winning there hasn't meant anything for previous drivers.

The guys in USAC would be much better off, racing against better competition, for more money in front of bigger crowds, then playing club racer in some lower formula Indy deal that is a road to nowhere.

3. No, neither one of them are signed with anyone. Clauson was signed with Ganassi's NASCAR group, but that has ended. Jones runs for Tony Stewart's sprint car team. They are free and very available. They are also very interested in Indy Car racing and the Indy 500, should that avenue actually be opened again for them. Granted, having drivers in Indy Cars and the Indy 500 THAT ACTUALLY WANT TO BE THERE, is a strange and novel concept nowadays. But what the hell? Might as well give it a try and see if we can better those microscopic TV numbers and interest in America that we have now.

4. Penske hasn't hired a new driver in Indy Cars without poaching them from another team in a couple of decades. Andretti is doing his part in lower formula's and actually seems interested in cultivating American talent, but he won't look for a American oval tracker. Not in his "DNA" (despite being Mario's son and John's cousin).

Nobody is saying that a couple of American oval track grads are the answer to all the problems of Indy Car. But it would be a start to solving a couple of them. And it certainly wouldn't drive fewer folks away from the TV (although that is almost statistically impossible at this point).

What are some of you worried about? This sport is broken. Badly. Time to try and put it back together. Time to figure out why it was so interesting and thriving in the 60's, 70s, 80's and 90's. Here is a hint....it wasn't because of Mario Moraes, EJ Viso and Takuma Sato. It was because Indy Cars got many of the BEST American oval trackers and BEST American road racers. That simple.

electron

19th July 2010, 12:13

What will be the biggest gain when building closer relationships or ladder systems with USAC?

Mainly, if not only, American drivers will come over from there.

and about a handfull or two US top drivers in ICS (Randy said to forget IRL term) even west or eastcoast would care!

this is what this sport alienated from it's home fanbase, the absence of competitive Americans or Americans at all!
If they comepte against a bunch of (really) great guys like Castroneves or Zanardis or Franchittis and so on from all over teh world and they are winning even better!
For a long time, the IRL and also CCWS was the dumpster for limited talent F1 rejects with a big checkbook from all around the globe. One season in, teh next season out... i stopped remembering their names.
If something can be done that these seats can go to an abitious USAC crack with some sponsor I am so all for it.
(although I admit I have no grasp on USAC as a european but would definitely not mind it)

this is the pool that needs to be activated. If USCAC can provide this, even better. If some of these drivers can bring along their fanbase (or their personal sponsors) from there, even better.

There is no other american talent pool at all that I can see.

Chris R

19th July 2010, 12:51

Scotty - I m glad you stated that the American oval connection is only part of the solution and not the entire solution - sometime it sounds like you and Bob feel that is the entire solution to the AOWR issue..... I agree, a path for the USAC drivers to get to Indy would be very productive and helpful for the whole sport from top to bottom - but one cannot deny that the series has acquired a certain international flavor that is also very important at this point (and has a fairly long history (nearly 50 years) of it own by now.....

Chris R

19th July 2010, 13:00

I am not at all sure that the drivers in ICS need to be American in order for American fans to like them.... I think they need to be likable and show a like for America but I do not think they care where they are from.....

Who was more popular Bryan Herta or Alex Zanardi??
Where was Mario Andretti born? Ever notice he still carries a fairly noticeable accent to this day?

I think Americans like people with personality and a drive to win. They may be prejudiced on the surface but it takes very little for them to say " well this person is not like all the others of his or her "type" ....I like them...."

My point is, Americans in the series would be great and are necessary - but lets not sell the American fan short we are smarter, more open, and more sophisticated that given credit for.....

What the series needs is to focus on promoting the personality of the drivers that do get to the series - and in some cases it needs to send the drivers to Dale Carnegie or somewhere to get some PR skills and learn that part of being a successful sports figure is to engage you fan base.....

electron

19th July 2010, 13:33

very correct. all about driver personalities.
What is more marketable and more convincing for the amaerican fan?

an american who sees the ICS with Indy as the pinnacle of his career and the ultimate goal or any (as good as he may be) F1 reject who is only here because he could not get a drive in Europe?

the Herta type will be around for a long long time and may end as a team owner. The other one? not so much... so who should you aim for to grow a base?
I say it is a good aproach.

chuck34

19th July 2010, 14:53

Where was Mario Andretti born? Ever notice he still carries a fairly noticeable accent to this day?

Well that depends on what you mean by "born". Yes his place of birth was in Italy. But he was really born on the dirt short tracks of the American Mid-West. He raced against guys like Foyt, Ward, Unser, and a bunch of other guys you/most probably have never heard of. He proved himself to be one of the best. He honed his car handling abilities. Got the feel for what different cars wanted at different types of tracks. By showing off his abilities to hundreds of thousands of fans throughout the heartland of this great nation, he EARNED their respect and devotion. When he moved up to IndyCars, he brought those die-hard fans with him. He also brought his driving skills with him. Those skills of being able to jump into one car on Friday, and another on Saturday at a different track and so on, helped him to be able to jump into a front engined roadster, or a rear engined "funny car" and win, or a sports car at LeMans, or Sebring and win, or an F1 car at Monaco and win, on and on. Yeah, we wouldn't want anymore of "those types" would we? Nor their hick, hayseed, redneck fans. Nope they should just stay in USAC until they get PAYED to go race in NASCAR. I just don't understand how you guys can be so against the USAC guys. Sure we need some Europeans too, but why turn ANYONE away? That's just stupid, the IRL needs all the drivers, fans, and sponsors it can get.

Oh, and that accent? That's just Pennsylvania Dutch. ;)

Chris R

19th July 2010, 18:49

Oh, and that accent? That's just Pennsylvania Dutch. ;)

lol - although I suppose for real it is east coast first and second generation Italian - you hear it all the time from Boston to Baltimore....

Your point about Mario paying his dues is well taken and it really drives home the point that nationality is not as important as earning respect going up through the ranks...

djparky

19th July 2010, 19:42

Why would anyone be driven away?

corporate America was driven away by

Tony George's idiotic desire to run an Indy Car series (when there was already a perfectly good series already running),

by the senior management at CART for failing to run their series properly (and for not killing off the IRL before it could even get started properly)

the decade or so that IRL/CART civil was lasted

NASCAR's rise to power through the 90's

crappy TV ratings, fewer decent American drivers

chuck34

19th July 2010, 20:32

corporate America was driven away by

Tony George's idiotic desire to run an Indy Car series (when there was already a perfectly good series already running),

by the senior management at CART for failing to run their series properly (and for not killing off the IRL before it could even get started properly)

the decade or so that IRL/CART civil was lasted

NASCAR's rise to power through the 90's

crappy TV ratings, fewer decent American drivers

So get in your time machine, go back to 1994, and stop the whole mess from happening.

I don't know about you all, but I am so SICK AND TIRED OF THIS LOOKING BACK CRAP!!!! Can't we have just one thread about moving forward?

anthonyvop

19th July 2010, 21:43

So get in your time machine, go back to 1994, and stop the whole mess from happening.

I don't know about you all, but I am so SICK AND TIRED OF THIS LOOKING BACK CRAP!!!! Can't we have just one thread about moving forward?

Ok Then why is the IRL talking about linking up with USAC?

Easy Drifter

19th July 2010, 22:39

And everybody forgets the dirt track sprint car boys and I do not mean just the WOO. The WOO and the other travelling series pack them in. Oshweken in Ont. when the Outlaws run bring in extra grandstands and sell out. Tony Stewart owns Eldora and packs the place.
The Kings Royal pays $50,000 to win and 56 year old Steve Kinser won it again. Kasey Khane was 15th and Dave Blaney 24th and last. Smoke didn't get out of the B main and there was a C Main. Huge car count. Smoke owns Kinser's car and the reigning champion's car driven by Donny Schatz. Khane owns an Outlaw team.
The Knoxville Ntls always sell out, usually for every night and they start Wed. for a Sat. feature. Between 120 and 140 cars trying for the 24 car Sat. A main starting positions. Every one of those drivers has a fan base!
Steve Kinser has run Indy in a 3rd rate car and Sammy Swindell did drive for Penske a bit.

nigelred5

19th July 2010, 22:57

lol - although I suppose for real it is east coast first and second generation Italian - you hear it all the time from Boston to Baltimore....

Your point about Mario paying his dues is well taken and it really drives home the point that nationality is not as important as earning respect going up through the ranks...

errr, he's first generation.

Even though He and Aldo did race as teens, they really learned to race on dirt tracks in the town they grew up in, Nazareth, but that was really all there was if you wanted to be an open wheel driver.

Chris R

20th July 2010, 00:00

errr, he's first generation.

Even though He and Aldo did race as teens, they really learned to race on dirt tracks in the town they grew up in, Nazareth, but that was really all there was if you wanted to be an open wheel driver.

He was born in Italy so technically he is an immigrant and Michael is first generation - but alas this is not a genealogy forum :p and I am not entirely sure of that anyway... m point is many of the all Italian families that are fairly close to the old country still have a trace of an accent even after a generation or two here.....

yeah, you are definitely right about his racing opportunities in the Nazareth area - but only a few ears later Mark Donahue rose up through the SCCA ranks in the USA and he grew up not more than 50 miles from Mario (I don't think Summit, N is too far from Nazareth.... times they were already a changin....

Chris R

20th July 2010, 00:29

anthonyvop

20th July 2010, 03:14

Because USAC IS a healthy sanctioning body with lots of races, teams, drivers and fans?

It is?

Could have fooled 98% of the US population.

Lets be real. USAC is only popular in the corn belt.

Scotty G.

20th July 2010, 04:25

It is?

Could have fooled 98% of the US population.

Lets be real. USAC is only popular in the corn belt.

Where is Indy Car popular?

Where is Indy Lights, Star Mazda and F2000 popular?

Interested for your response....

You are losing this argument, BTW. You have no clue about American open wheel oval racing.

Is there a HUGE fanbase of AOW oval fans out there, compared to NASCAR fans? No. Is there a loyal fanbase out there? Yes. Would some of that fanbase help the Indy Car folks? Yes. Did many of those members of that fanbase USED to prefer Indy Car racing over NASCAR? Yes.

Why are we even arguing this? NOBODY is watching Indy Car. Nobody. If we can find more fans to help this sport survive, why the hell not?

We have tried it the "CART way". We have tried it "the Champ Car way". We have tried it "The IRL way". None of it has resonated. None of it has worked.

Why not go back to the past and see why Indy Cars used to be popular? Much of that reason was because Indy Cars USED to get many of the BEST American open wheel oval grads and many of the BEST American open wheel road racing grads. Sprinkle in a few talented Europeans or Brazilians or Canadians and you have a sport that COULD actually work (if promoted and sold correctly and smartly).

Continuing to do the same ole' same ole' (which a few of you seem to want) ain't gonna work.

anthonyvop

20th July 2010, 04:30

And your point is? USAC, like SCCA, knows it's audience and serves it well. Every sanctioning body can't (or wants to) be like F1 or NASCAR.They have a core constituancy and gaining access to it will not save "formula car" racing, but it can be one more building block on the road back. Don't look down your nose at them.

The SCCA serves it's audience well?

There was a time when the SCCA, like USAC was a relevant player in the national racing Scene.
Can-Am, Trans-Am, Formula Atlantics, World Challenge. All gone or a sad shadow of it's formal self.
Today the SCCA is pretty much club racing sanctioning body and a poorly run one at that. All one has to do is look at the rise of NASA to see why.

USAC is the same story. Once they were a major player in the national racing scene. Today it is runs a regional, niche form of racing that most people don't even know or care exists.

Both groups should be studied by the IRL as glaring examples of how not to run a series.

Easy Drifter

20th July 2010, 05:24

And the WOO. Explain them Tony. Run all over NA to good crowds, often sell outs. Sure they are on bull rings but they have a popular series. Then there are other hot bed areas of sprinters like the west coast and the Pa. Ohio areas. The 360's are taking off in many areas.

p1bump

20th July 2010, 06:19

You can slice it up any way you'd like, make it sound intelligent, regurgitate the same buzzwords in a different order...

but all they have done is polish a turd, again. what another amazingly blockheaded call by 16th & Georgetown. There was no excuse or reason for the decision to select Dallara to make the future racecar that could not have been applied toward any of the other manufacturers with a more satisfactory result.

Besides the complete lack of dominance over other manufacturers in competition in nearly every realm, I understand they support hundreds of race cars on a given weekend. All but the DeltaWing group could claim that as well from my understanding...

And what the heck with discounts for Indy based teams? This whole thing reeks of illegitamite relationships and hidden favoritism.

Note: i said hidden favoritism, not hidden agenda. That is because an agenda implies the usually well crafted, long term plan which this decision, in turn, clearly demonstrates they are lacking in entirety.

amazing. I just stopped caring. It was the sport I loved more than any other, this CART & ChampCar. Back then Van Halen was my favorite band, but alas, they did the splits from Hagar....

Then 2007 happened and both seemed on their way to a harmonious futures... then it all just fell apart.

Dear God, what did I do so wrong to deserve this?

At least the world cup was still a joy to watch.

Things CCWS always did better; cooler venues, high performance vehicles, better crowds, better television broadcasts, better drivers. IRL drew some of these things away, when the merger happened the better of both sides DID NOT blend together. They took the pig cars (eh hem, Dallara), couldn't draw out or wouldn't hire the best big guns to drive, went to boring tracks where maybe the racing was good, but I'm not going to Kansas to watch a race. Vegas Grand Prix in 2007 was freaking AWESOME by the way.... Basically, the merger took the weaker points of the IRL and told us how great it was we're together.

B.S.

this sucks.

What another wonderfully RETARDED call by IndyCar on this Dallara. Showing once again how out of touch they are with what people want to see. By the way, expensive cars that are not spec racers tend to bring manufacturers looking to beat their chest and show dominance, let them spend the money.

end rant.

thank you for listening. stay tuned, I have much more to say...
Rich :vader:

p1bump

20th July 2010, 06:41

.... a final ending edit to my original post....

By the way, expensive cars that are not spec racers tend to bring manufacturers looking to beat their chest and show dominance and help fund you to help them do it...., let them spend the money, let us reap the rewards.

Another knuckleheaded call that makes it hard to care, in any way, what the hell is going on at 16th & Georgetown.

Mark in Oshawa

20th July 2010, 07:47

Where is Indy Car popular?

Where is Indy Lights, Star Mazda and F2000 popular?

Interested for your response....

You are losing this argument, BTW. You have no clue about American open wheel oval racing.

Is there a HUGE fanbase of AOW oval fans out there, compared to NASCAR fans? No. Is there a loyal fanbase out there? Yes. Would some of that fanbase help the Indy Car folks? Yes. Did many of those members of that fanbase USED to prefer Indy Car racing over NASCAR? Yes.

Why are we even arguing this? NOBODY is watching Indy Car. Nobody. If we can find more fans to help this sport survive, why the hell not?

We have tried it the "CART way". We have tried it "the Champ Car way". We have tried it "The IRL way". None of it has resonated. None of it has worked.

Why not go back to the past and see why Indy Cars used to be popular? Much of that reason was because Indy Cars USED to get many of the BEST American open wheel oval grads and many of the BEST American open wheel road racing grads. Sprinkle in a few talented Europeans or Brazilians or Canadians and you have a sport that COULD actually work (if promoted and sold correctly and smartly).

Continuing to do the same ole' same ole' (which a few of you seem to want) ain't gonna work.

Scotty I agree with you for the most part. The only problem is driving a Sprint Car doesn't translate. It just doesn't.....and that is the disconnect....

That said, their fans want to see Indy and want the IRL to be relevent to them and I think the IRL was relvent for years in the tracks they ran at.

It is a thorny thing, but I do agree, reaching out to everyone isn't a bad plan AT all.

Mark in Oshawa

20th July 2010, 07:48

p1 bump, try to stay with the tour. This topic is on about 3 other threads, and most of it has been explained. They are flat broke...they cannot just open the rules up and say "run what you want to build that fits in these rules" because the money aint there...

chuck34

20th July 2010, 12:48

Ok Then why is the IRL talking about linking up with USAC?

To tap into a large fan base that was alienated by IndyCar back in the 70's/80's, and are currently being alienated by NASCAR.

You know, crazy stuff like trying to grow the sport.

chuck34

20th July 2010, 15:26

USAC is the same story. Once they were a major player in the national racing scene. Today it is runs a regional, niche form of racing that most people don't even know or care exists.

Tony, as you like to remind us all the time that USAC is a regional sport. May I ask (since you are clearly the expert), have you ever been to that "region"? Have you ever been to a race in that "region"? Can you please define that "region"? Do you have any clue how many tracks are in that "region"? Any clue how many people show up weekly to those tracks in that "region"? Any word on how many cars show up weekly to tracks in that "region"?

Perhaps people in South Florida don't know or care about USAC (although you really might want to check into that a little deeper). But I assure you that there are plenty of people in the "region" that know and care about USAC.

Mark in Oshawa

20th July 2010, 17:32

To tap into a large fan base that was alienated by IndyCar back in the 70's/80's, and are currently being alienated by NASCAR.

You know, crazy stuff like trying to grow the sport.

He seems to think only he has the answers, and we are not listening...

The fact is, he badmouth's this, but of course, we see all the racing series he has worked for and made a success right? oh...right...it is an opinion.

Randy Bernard took the most politically incorrect sport and made it a TV property. How about giving Randy a chance Tony, because once upon a time before some stupid people destroyed the popularity of the CART series in 1995, this was a big time form of racing.....so he has a lot more room for growth now doesn't he? I am betting he has more good ideas...

anthonyvop

20th July 2010, 18:32

Tony, as you like to remind us all the time that USAC is a regional sport. May I ask (since you are clearly the expert), have you ever been to that "region"? Have you ever been to a race in that "region"? Can you please define that "region"? Do you have any clue how many tracks are in that "region"? Any clue how many people show up weekly to those tracks in that "region"? Any word on how many cars show up weekly to tracks in that "region"?

Perhaps people in South Florida don't know or care about USAC (although you really might want to check into that a little deeper). But I assure you that there are plenty of people in the "region" that know and care about USAC.

Yes
Yes
MidWest
A lot
Average a couple of thousand
Less than what shows up to a SCCA, NASA or FARA regional.

Yes there are "plenty" But what is "Plenty"? "Plenty" isn't enough to attract any TV package. "Plenty" isn't enough to get any significant press.

The big question is how is a USAC Sprint or Midget or WoO similar to Formula car racing?
The Cars are totally different. A Sprint car has much more in common with the cars that NASCAR run than anything that has been driven at Indy, let alone the series, since the Early 1970's........40 years ago.

chuck34

20th July 2010, 18:52

Yes

wow.

Yes

Somehow I doubt that.

MidWest

So no tracks in Florida then? None in the North East? None in California? On and on and on .... Interesting

A lot

Ooooh thanks for that insightfull little nugget.

Average a couple of thousand

So those couple of thousand times "A lot" of tracks? That adds up to quite "A lot" of people.

Less than what shows up to a SCCA, NASA or FARA regional.

You sure about that? Show me some numbers.

Yes there are "plenty" But what is "Plenty"? "Plenty" isn't enough to attract any TV package. "Plenty" isn't enough to get any significant press.

And your position is that SCCA, NASA, etc. have those things, and therefore we should go after that market INSTEAD of the USAC market? Your argument here really doesn't hold ANY water.

The big question is how is a USAC Sprint or Midget or WoO similar to Formula car racing?
The Cars are totally different. A Sprint car has much more in common with the cars that NASCAR run than anything that has been driven at Indy, let alone the series, since the Early 1970's........40 years ago.

That's a seperate issue entirely. How well have the guys comming over from other "Formula" car series done? I submit Moraes, Viso, Danica, and Milka as examples.

Easy Drifter

20th July 2010, 19:32

Yep dirt track racers cannot adapt.
Foyt, Andretti, Rutherford, Johncock, the Unsers, Parnelli Jones and on and on could not drive Indy cars.
Good racers can adapt period.
It might take a little time but they can.
Keeping F. Atlantic and dumping Indy lights probably would have been a wise move but that is now a moot point.
A huge # of Indy drivers came out of Atlantic including Vasser, B. Rahal, Goodyear, J. Villeneuve and Michael Andretti plus Simona this year. For better or worse so did Danica.
Lights and earlier configurations not so much.

Jag_Warrior

20th July 2010, 20:09

I don't really have an opinion on this USAC thing. If they can make it work, then that's great. But I'm in "I'll believe it when I see it"/wait & see mode. More than likely this is just another in a long line of initiatives that will end up going no where.

Chris R

20th July 2010, 20:24

chuck34

20th July 2010, 20:33

Chris R

20th July 2010, 20:38

I think you've missed the point. It's not about getting sprint car drivers to race here as the end in itself. IndyCar has got drivers now. It's about getting drivers from other forms of racing so that the fans of those drivers and race cars will give this series a chance. Getting a few drivers here is only the means to that end.

I agree - but I think it is very unrealistic to expect a significant number of sprint car racers to make it in Indycar without a closer alignment of the formulae.... It is also somewhat unrealistic to expect someone who loves dirt sprint cars as they are today to really become big fans of Indycar as it is today. Just getting a couple of USAC guys to run in mid-field at best is not going to bring a ton of new fans - they have to be able to be successful to bring the fans.

chuck34

20th July 2010, 20:39

To make the USAC connection fully work, it is going to require re-inventing Indycar entirely. Several people have brought up the fact that sprint cars do not translate to Indycars - they are too different.... I agree. A "modern" cup car is more like a sprint car than an Indycar is like a sprint car.... It is not to say that the best drivers can't be good in both -but you cannot expect to be the "best" right away if you have to re-learn a large portion of your racecraft/drving techniques just to make the next step.....

So, you either have to get USAC to change what a sprint car is or the IRL to change what an Indycar is..... good luck on either front.....

so the question is - who is it that needs to change? USAC or Indy??? It seems to me someone should be asking USAC and WoO to change p their formula a little to ease the transition to rear engine formula cars......

I saw some concept drawings about a year ago for USAC's Gold Crown car. That looked like a good step in the right direction. Don't know what ever happened to that deal.

But I really don't know that either of them need to change. Do we really know that spring car skills don't translate to IndyCars? The last few to attempt the transition, that come to mind did ok. Tony Stewart won at both levels, and probably could again if he came back. Davey Hamilton was pretty good before his accident. Sarah Fisher was never spectacular in sprints/midgets, but ok, sort of like she has been in IndyCars. Same deal for Carpenter, and he showed some real promise last year.

Until someone like Levi Jones or Bobby East give IndyCars a go, I'll reserve judgment about the skills crossing over or not.

anthonyvop

20th July 2010, 21:26

Any group of people, no matter how small, that you can attract - even one person- is one more than is there now.

It is called Return On Investment. Is it worth it to the IRL to spend Thousands or possibly millions in marketing that might bring in hundreds? What about the current fans you alienate by aligning the IRL to a series that they have no interest in?

Are you being purposely dense for the sake of an argument?
Personal insults will not help your argument. And you need all the help you can get.

There is no home run here. If you can find that one market that will, by itself, solve all the probems then tell us all about it.

There is no Home runs but there are plenty of singles, doubles and even a triple or two.
Many times I have provided my ideas here on what the direction of the IRL should be and what they should do.

anthonyvop

21st July 2010, 00:52

Thank you for helping make my point. :D

Yea....And the USAC idea is a bases loaded BALK

Mark in Oshawa

21st July 2010, 05:14

I saw some concept drawings about a year ago for USAC's Gold Crown car. That looked like a good step in the right direction. Don't know what ever happened to that deal.

But I really don't know that either of them need to change. Do we really know that spring car skills don't translate to IndyCars? The last few to attempt the transition, that come to mind did ok. Tony Stewart won at both levels, and probably could again if he came back. Davey Hamilton was pretty good before his accident. Sarah Fisher was never spectacular in sprints/midgets, but ok, sort of like she has been in IndyCars. Same deal for Carpenter, and he showed some real promise last year.

Until someone like Levi Jones or Bobby East give IndyCars a go, I'll reserve judgment about the skills crossing over or not.

Tony Stewart was the only real success, and would he be as successful as the two series merged? Maybe...likely, but I don't know about other USAC guys.

Lets face it, the economic reality of going to NASCAR makes more sense for a USAC guy, and the transferable skills make more sense.

The modern formula car doesn't do anything like a Sprint car, and a Cup car in NASCAR DOES.....

Great drivers can make it work, but they are not common. Tony Stewart yes....but Even Sam Hornish came from Atlantics.....

chuck34

21st July 2010, 12:49

It is called Return On Investment. Is it worth it to the IRL to spend Thousands or possibly millions in marketing that might bring in hundreds?

So where is this magical, mythical huge fan fanbase of hundred of thousands or millions of fans just waiting to be tapped into? You have to GROW the fanbase little by little at this point. There is now way to gain millions of fans overnight.

What about the current fans you alienate by aligning the IRL to a series that they have no interest in?

Other than you (who wants to leave anyway because of the name "Indy"), who would be alienated by a few USAC guys comming over? That is non-sence.

Many times I have provided my ideas here on what the direction of the IRL should be and what they should do.

And your ideas are the only ones that will work? Everyone else's ideas are all crap that will only "alienate" fans, right?

The bottom line is we need MORE fans. I think everyone (except you) would welcome the USAC folks with open arms, right along with SCCA folks, NASA folks, F2, GP2, rally, etc. YOU are the only one that wants to discriminate on who we allow in. That's just plain foolish.

chuck34

21st July 2010, 12:52

Tony Stewart was the only real success, and would he be as successful as the two series merged? Maybe...likely, but I don't know about other USAC guys.

He was the last good one to really try though. Or am I forgetting about someone?

Lets face it, the economic reality of going to NASCAR makes more sense for a USAC guy, and the transferable skills make more sense.

Yes, right now the economics are driving those guy to NASCAR. But if that changes somehow, I don't think that their skills will hold them back in the IRL.

The modern formula car doesn't do anything like a Sprint car, and a Cup car in NASCAR DOES.....

Yeah they don't look like a Sprint Car. But do you honestly know that a good Sprint Car guy can't drive one? That's my point

Great drivers can make it work, but they are not common. Tony Stewart yes....but Even Sam Hornish came from Atlantics.....

I'm fine with having more Hornishs (and better) comming from Atlantics. Unlike some I don't want to turn ANYONE away. ;)

anthonyvop

21st July 2010, 18:38

So where is this magical, mythical huge fan fanbase of hundred of thousands or millions of fans just waiting to be tapped into? You have to GROW the fanbase little by little at this point. There is now way to gain millions of fans overnight.

Other than you (who wants to leave anyway because of the name "Indy"), who would be alienated by a few USAC guys comming over? That is non-sence.

The bottom line is we need MORE fans. I think everyone (except you) would welcome the USAC folks with open arms, right along with SCCA folks, NASA folks, F2, GP2, rally, etc. YOU are the only one that wants to discriminate on who we allow in. That's just plain foolish.

I have not said that having a few USAC guys coming over would alienate fans.

I am saying that if the IRL creates a strong link where the road to the ICS is through USAC and makes it a more short track, oval centric series it will alienate many fans.

Bob Riebe

22nd July 2010, 03:30

I would agree with that, or at least it will alienate as many as it gains. The point I, and I guess others, thought you were making was that to have any ties to USAC was a bad idea. As I understand it, RB's overture to USAC was simply to entice a few of their drivers to consider running some or all of the IndyCar schedule. That kind of cross pollination, and from other sources as well, can only help bring old fans back and bring new ones in.
Anyone who is alienated, is a self-serving twit who does not really give a damn about the racing of any sort.
They are like bar-flies attracted to the stink of the moment, that will flit away in moments notice.

I had zero love for CART, but followed the series for years.

Mark in Oshawa

22nd July 2010, 09:00

Yeah they don't look like a Sprint Car. But do you honestly know that a good Sprint Car guy can't drive one? That's my point

I'm fine with having more Hornishs (and better) comming from Atlantics. Unlike some I don't want to turn ANYONE away. ;)

Well I think there are a few Sprint Car guys coming up with talent. There is always those who you watch and you wonder. That said, with the Atlantics now gone, the only feeder series for the IRL in a similar type of car is the Indy Lights. I think the transition can be done, but as you and I have now agreed, it is likely the economics driving this. It was in a sense what drove Jeff Gordon to NASCAR as well. Some would say CART owners just scoffed at the idea, but the point has to be made that the OW model for drivers has always been putting the onus to bring money to the table as much as anything, and as Scott has pointed out this is wrong. Yes...it is, but I think this happens in NASCAR related series to a point too. The difference, I think sponsors are more friendly towards the NASCAR world...the entry costs as a driver looking for that sponsor are less.

I look at some of the talent that has come from USAC and I know darn well that guys like Kahne and Newman didn't even consider the Indy 500 and the IRL as a destination for whatever reason, and yet that was ostensibly why the IRL was formed. To give these guys a place to go. Yet it didn't happen...

I think the more we dig into this, there are a myriad of reasons this form of racing has evolved this way, but the reality is until Randy Bernard stated this quest to reconnect with that forum of racing, No one had really paid more than lip service since Tony George's original goals of the IRL.

I think if a USAC guy wants to make a go of the IRL bad enough, he might find a way, but most guys want the path of least resistance...and if you can get 2 or 3 small sponsors and start driving late models or even the Trucks, you do that over trying to get a few more sponsors or more money in any case to run a car that will require a greater adjustment in style and mindset to adapt to. Sprint cars have more in common with NASCAR stockers than they do a modern OW car and have for some time...

anthonyvop

22nd July 2010, 14:54

Anyone who is alienated, is a self-serving twit who does not really give a damn about the racing of any sort.
They are like bar-flies attracted to the stink of the moment, that will flit away in moments notice.

I had zero love for CART, but followed the series for years.

So everyone who is a fan if Indy Car but isn't a fan of USAC is "a self-serving twit who does not really give a damn about the racing of any sort?"

You have to be a fan of all forms of racing to be a race fan?

Bob Riebe

23rd July 2010, 02:02

So everyone who is a fan if Indy Car but isn't a fan of USAC is "a self-serving twit who does not really give a damn about the racing of any sort?"

You have to be a fan of all forms of racing to be a race fan?
No, and I did not say that:

Main Entry: alien·ate
1 : to make unfriendly, hostile, or indifferent especially where attachment formerly existed.

You said people would be alienated simply because of the fact that USAC is involved. No mention of rule chaoges or anything to do with the actual racing just bias against USAC.
To say that is the act of a twit is an understatement.

Mark in Oshawa

23rd July 2010, 02:54

anthonyvop

23rd July 2010, 22:11

No, and I did not say that:

Main Entry: alien·ate
1 : to make unfriendly, hostile, or indifferent especially where attachment formerly existed.

You said people would be alienated simply because of the fact that USAC is involved. No mention of rule chaoges or anything to do with the actual racing just bias against USAC.
To say that is the act of a twit is an understatement.

And you don't think that there are people who look at USAC racing with disdain?
You don't believe that there are fans who would turn up their noses at a IRL if USAC became the road to Indy?

If you don't then....your use of insults just compounds my view of you.

garyshell

24th July 2010, 04:33

You don't believe that there are fans who would turn up their noses at a IRL if USAC became the road to Indy?

No one, other than you, is suggesting it become THE road to Indy. The suggestion is to make it A road to Indy. There is a big difference. But you know that, this just gives you a forum for your own disdain of USAC.

Gary

Bob Riebe

24th July 2010, 06:50

And you don't think that there are people who look at USAC racing with disdain?
You don't believe that there are fans who would turn up their noses at a IRL if USAC became the road to Indy?

If you don't then....your use of insults just compounds my view of you.
Your statement merely suggests there are narrow minded narcissists out there.
As I said to call them twits is being kind.

anthonyvop

25th July 2010, 05:09

Your statement merely suggests there are narrow minded narcissists out there.
As I said to call them twits is being kind.

So a person who doesn't like USAC racing is a Narrow minded narcissist?
What if you are an Indy Car fan and look down on NASCAR? Isn't that the same thing?

The only narrow-minded narcissists are those who think they are better than others because they Like USAC.

Mark in Oshawa

25th July 2010, 07:52

No one, other than you, is suggesting it become THE road to Indy. The suggestion is to make it A road to Indy. There is a big difference. But you know that, this just gives you a forum for your own disdain of USAC.

Gary

Disdain for USAC really has some grounds I suppose. They are the folks who ticked off people so bad in 79 that car owners actually grew a set and started their own group. When Tony handed USAC the reigns to actually run IRL events when he first started, they lasted all but 2 years....and made so many errors it was clear that they were not up to the job.

So scoffing at USAC isn't anything new.

That said, they do run what they know really well, and I don't think Randy is going to USAC to ask them to run anything. He is just approaching their fans and drivers and giving them all a chance to buy into that the IRL is a goal for their time, money and talents.

Or we could believe Tony's just visceral dislike without any factual basis...

garyshell

25th July 2010, 08:50

So a person who doesn't like USAC racing is a Narrow minded narcissist?
What if you are an Indy Car fan and look down on NASCAR? Isn't that the same thing?

The only narrow-minded narcissists are those who think they are better than others because they Like USAC.

You really do like to twist what other folks say to suit your own agenda, don't you? What was said is that a person who turns their back on the IRL only because the IRL extends a welcome to the USAC community is a narrow minded twit. But of course YOU would want to turn that into something entirely different.

Gary

anthonyvop

25th July 2010, 15:50

You really do like to twist what other folks say to suit your own agenda, don't you? What was said is that a person who turns their back on the IRL only because the IRL extends a welcome to the USAC community is a narrow minded twit. But of course YOU would want to turn that into something entirely different.

Gary

Again all your doing is insulting those who don't like the kind of racing USAC sanctions.

But of course I am wrong.
It will be an excellent idea for the IRL to associate itself with a type of racing that they have nothing in common with and 99% of the population could care less about.

Scotty G.

26th July 2010, 02:08

It will be an excellent idea for the IRL to associate itself with a type of racing that they have nothing in common with and 99% of the population could care less about.

Instead of associating themselves with a type of racing (the lower formula car racing) that literally NOBODY cares about?

Who would you like Indy Cars to appeal to, if American oval track racing (which is the dominant form of racing in America and where the vast majority of AOW fans are) is not kosher for you?

We have already seen what not inviting them to the Country Club has meant for Indy Car Racing....its a non-existant and unimportant entity in American sports today. The mere fact that you and others can't see that (or don't want to see that) only makes you look ignorant.

The sport is dying, son. Continuing to plod along doing the same ole' failed things and hoping for a better result, ain't gonna cut it. If we can add a couple of American short-track grads to the sport (either for Indy or the oval portion of the schedule), and give them a LEGIT shot to stay in the sport for a while, and don't turn our noses down at them like they aren't "special" enough for this type of racing, maybe just maybe, there would be more then 200,000 people watching these races again. Maybe, just maybe, you end up finding a stud driver (and we could use all the talent we can find, at this point). Maybe the next Foyt or the next Unser or the next Stewart or the next Kahne is out there (considering the depth of talent in USAC, there might actually be 2 or 3 of those type of guys out there).

But saying "the hell with them, we don't need them or their stinkin fans" is amusing and pathetic, at this point. Have you seen where Indy Car racing is in 2010?

garyshell

26th July 2010, 02:39

What was said is that a person who turns their back on the IRL only because the IRL extends a welcome to the USAC community is a narrow minded twit.

Again all your doing is insulting those who don't like the kind of racing USAC sanctions.

Once again you want to TRY to twist the words to fit YOUR agenda. No, I did not insult the folks who do not like USAC. Who I did insult are the small subset of those same folks who would let their dislike of USAC overshadow their feelings about the IRL.

That is a much smaller group, and if they are insulted by the comment so be it. But don't dare try to expand that as if we were EVER talking about the entire group of IRL fans who don't care for USAC. I don't care for USAC racing. But I sure as hell would not be so narrow minded as to let that keep me from enjoying the IRL if they reach out to kinds of racing USAC sponsors.

Gary

chuck34

26th July 2010, 03:31

Again all your doing is insulting those who don't like the kind of racing USAC sanctions.

But of course I am wrong.
It will be an excellent idea for the IRL to associate itself with a type of racing that they have nothing in common with and 99% of the population could care less about.

You REALLY need to do some research on USAC and their fanbase. And again, who exactly would you go after if not the short track fans? And why do you have such disdain for them, what did they do to you? You position has no basis in reality.

Who is Levi Jones? Who is Mirl Swan? Ask that to 1000 people at random and see which one people know

anthonyvop

26th July 2010, 03:50

You REALLY need to do some research on USAC and their fanbase. And again, who exactly would you go after if not the short track fans? And why do you have such disdain for them, what did they do to you? You position has no basis in reality.

Who is Levi Jones? Who is Mirl Swan? Ask that to 1000 people at random and see which one people know

I know all about the USAC fanbase and their demo.
I can ask 1000 people who Levi Jones or Mirl Swan is and it would be a fluke if I got 1 correct answer.

I have nothing against USAC. In fact their races can be amusing. What I am against is hooking up with a series that has a minuscule fan base and not exactly the kind of demo that a top tier Formula Car racing series needs.

Mark in Oshawa

26th July 2010, 05:35

vintage

26th July 2010, 10:17

chuck34

26th July 2010, 13:24

I know all about the USAC fanbase and their demo.
I can ask 1000 people who Levi Jones or Mirl Swan is and it would be a fluke if I got 1 correct answer.

I have nothing against USAC. In fact their races can be amusing. What I am against is hooking up with a series that has a minuscule fan base and not exactly the kind of demo that a top tier Formula Car racing series needs.

So what "lower level" series would you hook up with? And does that series have more or less fans than USAC? You are a fool if you want to alienate anyone. I know you say you don't want to do that, but it is exactly what would happen if we took your "all Euro-all the time" (excuse me Formula car) path.

chuck34

26th July 2010, 13:27

Why use Mirl Swan as your example? He's not on the "Road to Indy". I do know who he is - he's a club racer that drove an Atlantic "C2" car during the Atlantic Series last throes when they needed him and his other club racer friends to get the car count over 10. Maybe a fairer comparison would be to ask if someone knows who Edwards, Simona, Hildebrand, or even better, Castroneves or Franchitti - as Levi is at the top level of his chosen form of racing.

Partially right. Mirl Swan was the 2009 SCCA National Champion from the SCCA run-offs. Exactly the type of person Tony seems to think has a huge fan base. Clearly that isn't the case when even someone who has heard of him doesn't know he was the National Champ.

So it is a fair comparison. Mirl is at the top of the "lower formula" and so is Levi. I would say, if we used Tony's "road to Indy", that Mirl would be right there ready to go, and Levi would be right there ready to go to NASCAR. So they are, in that world, the same.

Scotty G.

26th July 2010, 15:11

1. I have nothing against USAC. In fact their races can be amusing.

2. What I am against is hooking up with a series that has a minuscule fan base and not exactly the kind of demo that a top tier Formula Car racing series needs.

1. Wanna watch "amusing" racing? Watch Indy Car. The past 2 weeks have been laugh your ass off stuff. :D

2. You want to continue to be linked ONLY with series like Star Mazda, Indy Lights and F2000, who have literally NO fanbase.

And quit with the "demo" crap. The facts are, we don't currently look good to ANY "demo". Indy Car today, does not appeal to Americans from any genre. It doesn't appeal to most foreign drivers either. Right now, the Indy Car "demo" appears to consist of owner's kids, girls and F1 washouts who weren't good enough to race where they wanted to.

Continuing to try and ONLY appeal to the formula car group (which is so miniscule, you can't even see it in a microscope) and COMPLETELY excluding the group where the majority of AOW fans reside, is ASININE and par for the course for the current Indy Car world.

We need to be able to appeal to BOTH groups. And we don't currently appeal to either one.

Scotty G.

26th July 2010, 15:18

So what "lower level" series would you hook up with?

Anything that isn't associated with those evil letters U S A C ?

Indy Lights is sure healthy. Those 13 cars (with all of one American driver in them) at Edmonton I am sure put on a hell of a show. :p

If I knew where Star Mazda raced next, I am sure I'd be buying tickets to be with the other 23 people in the stands.

Maybe we could hook up with Atlantics? Ohh damn, Atlantics went belly up, didn't it?

When Indy Car was healthiest and getting THE BEST American drivers, they had drivers from oval and road racing backgrounds. What you want is to do is continue to ignore one of those genres (just because, I guess) and just focus on the road racers. That's great. Looking at the F2000, Star Mazda and Indy Lights fields, where are the Americans? Where are the Canadians?

And if you think Indy Cars is going to ever make it, without American drivers and some good Canadians, you are clueless.

e2mtt

26th July 2010, 16:16

The thing that some of the posters here are missing is that in many places, including where I live, USAC is just as obscure as Indy Lights or Star Mazda or whatever.

Getting USAC drivers into Indycar is a good goal of course.

A really good thing would be Indycar-sponsored spring training or tryouts in Florida in Jan or Feb that would be open to all aspiring racers... give them seat time for free if they had good enough credentials from any ladder series. (or a fee if they want to buy a chance to show off)

A few days at Sebring, & a few days at Homestead. Get a bunch of Lights out there, all set up right, let them run laps. The fast ones would get to run laps in Indycars. Get the team & sponsor reps down there. Get some Indycar drivers down to set the target lap times. Might be a pretty good show - advertise in all the racing & car magazines, try to entice drivers from all different series. Even get some dirt, rally, & stock car drivers just to check it out.

Mark in Oshawa

26th July 2010, 18:04

Partially right. Mirl Swan was the 2009 SCCA National Champion from the SCCA run-offs. Exactly the type of person Tony seems to think has a huge fan base. Clearly that isn't the case when even someone who has heard of him doesn't know he was the National Champ.

So it is a fair comparison. Mirl is at the top of the "lower formula" and so is Levi. I would say, if we used Tony's "road to Indy", that Mirl would be right there ready to go, and Levi would be right there ready to go to NASCAR. So they are, in that world, the same.

I come from Road racing yet I knew who the USAC up and comer was, and not the SCCA up and comer.

So much for Tony's theory.

God....I read Scott's posts and I agree with him again...this has to stop happening...lol...

chuck34

26th July 2010, 18:08

I come from Road racing yet I knew who the USAC up and comer was, and not the SCCA up and comer.

So much for Tony's theory.

God....I read Scott's posts and I agree with him again...this has to stop happening...lol...

Thanks for helping me prove a point Mark. I figured that'd get most people ;)

Mark in Oshawa

26th July 2010, 18:18

Thanks for helping me prove a point Mark. I figured that'd get most people ;)

Chuck, I am exactly the race fan that Tony thinks his arguments cater to, yet I identified the USAC guy....so I am glad you made the point.

I like all race fans, who follow everything to try and learn about them all. I don't have one form of racing I refuse to watch in my list of choices. I love drag racing, I watch motocross and Moto GP (not as much I admit ), I have enjoyed flat track AMA stuff, I can watch Rallycross, BTCC, WTCC, DTM, Aussie V8's, NASCAR Cup, NW, and Trucks and all the OW formula.

If more people quit being so partisan, and realized that with the exception of F1 and NASCAR, most racing organizations need their patronage and support, we as race fans would have more viewing choices..