Red Bull + Wings

[Ranger]

There were 2 new front wings which Red Bull brought for Webber and Vettel.

Vettel's fell off in practice.

So what did RBR do?

Gave him Webber's wing.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85175

Hmm...

[gloomyDAY]

:laugh:

Red Bull is playing favorites.

Chassis, front wing, what's next?

[Tazio]

:laugh:

Red Bull is playing favorites.

Chassis, front wing, what's next?

Bitches! :dog: :dork:

[ShiftingGears]

I can't help but feel that if the situation was reversed RBR's response to Webber would be tough luck!

[F1boat]

It was clear after Turkey that Webbo will not score either polls or wins. Pity.

[truefan72]

It was clear after Turkey that Webbo will not score either polls or wins. Pity.

I hope for Webber's sake that he can win this race ( if Hamilton can't) just ruffle the feathers of the RBR Vettel team. This is clearly a case of a driver performing in-spite of his team. Earlier in the week he proclaimed the Button/Hamilton partnership will end in tears. But from what I've seen I believe this whole RBR situation will end badly, very badly and I can see Webber leaving to Renault or Williams at the end of the year.

[markabilly]

yeah, but if that one imitates its dirty little sister and falls off in the race.....I am certain Webber will in tears...


If i were vettle, I am not so sure I would be wanting it, unless it simply failed because some nut was not screwed

maybe next they will give webber's woman to vettel....

[Mia 01]

I´m not sure it was seb asking for it.

[jens]

So Vettel has joined the club of Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton of being favoured - how honorable. :) I guess almost any team has had situations, where they have had only one certain new car part and they give it to the so-called lead driver. The circumstances have put RBR into a bit of an embarrassing situation in this case, but after a bit of thinking there shouldn't be anything surprising about their action. Although if I was Horner, I'm not sure I would have rushed to give a new wing to the lead driver after it has already failed and the cause hasn't been properly examined.

[tacksharp]

If there were two races left and Vettel had a better chance to win the championship, then he should be favored. But there are 10 races left to go and they are separated by only 12 points, so there's no excuse for taking Webber's wing if the drivers are truly treated equally. I don't have a problem with Red Bull favoring Vettel (they're free to run the team as they see fit), but I have a problem with them lying about it and re-signing Webber with the promise that he will be treated equally.

[wedge]

Though there's a significant difference between the endplates there was nothing inbetween them in Q1, Vettel had 0.3s advantage in Q2, and Webbo was beaten by over a tenth for pole.

[anthonyvop]

:laugh:

Red Bull is playing favorites.

Chassis, front wing, what's next?


Even if it is true....so what?

You should only expect Red Bull Racing to do what they think is best for Red Bull Racing.

To think otherwise is just silly.

[Hawkmoon]

First they blame Webber for his teammate running into him in Turkey (not to mention that they told Webber to turn his engine down and Vettel to turn his up).

Then they give Webber a chasis that they said was so broken that it caused Vettel to be beaten by Webber.

Now they take new parts off Webber's car and give them to Vettel.

To top it all off they maintain that there are no team orders and that everything is just peachy. Red Bull need to go and talk to McLaren about how to be sublte about having a no. 1 driver because right now Red Bull are about as subtle as a turd in a punchbowl.

[Saint Devote]

We know that Red Bull Racing are biased towards Vettel and that they are liars about it. Horner is a real slime-ball - but this is not new to f1.

This sort of thing has always happened from engine manufacturers such as Cosworth in past days providing better engines to the number 1 driver in teams to Ferrari dictates.

This is a sport but it is the right of a team to do as it pleases.

The difference is that in the old days if it was found out it was admitted or if blatantly done such as this wing fiasco, it was not denied - does the RBR management really think that fans are THAT gullible?

I dont like what they have done to Webber but they have their reasons and knowing Webber this is going to make him even more determined than ever.

Anyone imagining that there is not a "situation" at RBR is not up to speed. Turkey will be the order of the day.

Hopefully any blatant action by the team during the race, including trying to mess with his engine mapping will be caught by Pilbeam - a good guy for Webber to have in his side.

RBR can learn from the Whitmarsh run Mclaren team. The prevention of any friction between drivers is enabled BEFORE the season begins with the co-operation of the drivers. Now it is too late.

[Saint Devote]

Even if it is true....so what?

You should only expect Red Bull Racing to do what they think is best for Red Bull Racing.

To think otherwise is just silly.

When has alienating a driver such as Webber ever been in a team's rational self-interest?

[anthonyvop]

When has alienating a driver such as Webber ever been in a team's rational self-interest?

You ever hear of Ferrari, McLaren or Williams. They made F-1 history and won championships by alienating drivers.

[Saint Devote]

You ever hear of Ferrari, McLaren or Williams. They made F-1 history and won championships by alienating drivers.

They have never alienated drivers against the team, especially in the middle of a season where neither driver is dominant.

There have been situations where drivers have become alienated from each other, but the team has stepped in to try and control it - but not always successfully.

But regardless, my question relates to an objective action and there is only one proper answer - acting irrationally is not the way to go.

[maximilian]

"Red Bull takes your wings!"

[Valve Bounce]

First they blame Webber for his teammate running into him in Turkey (not to mention that they told Webber to turn his engine down and Vettel to turn his up).

Then they give Webber a chasis that they said was so broken that it caused Vettel to be beaten by Webber.

Now they take new parts off Webber's car and give them to Vettel.

To top it all off they maintain that there are no team orders and that everything is just peachy. Red Bull need to go and talk to McLaren about how to be sublte about having a no. 1 driver because right now Red Bull are about as subtle as a turd in a punchbowl.

Wait till the pit stop when they can't find the nut for Webbo's car. :D

This is reprehensible: "Red Bull has been forced to defend its decision to remove a new front wing from Mark Webber's car and hand it to team-mate Sebastian Vettel for qualifying for the British Grand Prix."

After Vettel took pole position, Webber was left visibly annoyed in the post-session press conference - and cheekily suggested that at least the team would be 'happy' with the result today.

Horner moved quickly, however, to defend the decision – saying that he felt the outfit had a duty to hand the wing to the driver who was leading the championship. He also suggested that there was no lap time difference between the two designs.

I suppose this is the end of Webbo's challenge for the title this year.

[Saint Devote]

I suppose this is the end of Webbo's challenge for the title this year.

Never become defeatist! This is just the end of the beginning! [thanks Winnie]

There is nobody tougher out there and Vettel must now realize that instead of securing a teammate he has gained a stronger and more determined opponent.

Believe me, I have been in battle situations that have look somewhat bleak - but you NEVER even THINK negatively. You just go on and push and win.

Webber has to enter the Mansell mind set - prepared to die to win.

He will be racing in front of a crowd that will appreciate and let him know when he is driving like Nige.

The British crowd dislike something unfair and I am sure they will be cheering for Webber tomorrow as much as for Jense and Lewis.

Webber must approach this as a war and act regardless of consequences even if it means crashing into Vettel by not giving in.

If he acts like in Turkey he will win, if he acts like Malaysia then it is over and he will deserve to lose.

He must be Senna, he must be Mansell, he must be Schumacher tomorrow. No prisoners. Just DO IT! He must destroy Vettel mentally tomorrow.

[Ent]

Well, if Webber is going to do anything this season, he'll have to do it on his own. Time Switch the brain on again like he did in Spain and Monaco, cut out the silly errors from trying too hard, and try to simply outrace Vettel. Seems the only way the team will support him is if he gets far enough in front of his teammate that they are forced to put support him or risk losing the championship.

[Saint Devote]

Well, if Webber is going to do anything this season, he'll have to do it on his own. Time Switch the brain on again like he did in Spain and Monaco, cut out the silly errors from trying too hard, and try to simply outrace Vettel. Seems the only way the team will support him is if he gets far enough in front of his teammate that they are forced to put support him or risk losing the championship.

Hear ! Hear! Give that man a scotch! :D

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Even if it is true....so what?

You should only expect Red Bull Racing to do what they think is best for Red Bull Racing.

To think otherwise is just silly.

Sure, but in that case, they should be open about it. The hypocrisy is what's really annoying.

[Valve Bounce]

Well, if Webber is going to do anything this season, he'll have to do it on his own. Time Switch the brain on again like he did in Spain and Monaco, cut out the silly errors from trying too hard, and try to simply outrace Vettel. Seems the only way the team will support him is if he gets far enough in front of his teammate that they are forced to put support him or risk losing the championship.

I am just facing the reality of Red Bull's favoritism towards Vettel. My own thoughts on his dilema was that it was one of his own making when he re-signed with Red Bull just after Turkey, and by doing so, he sealed his fate.

Webber will discover that there are more ways in heaven and on earth to give Vettel a more equal car than his own than is dreamt of in his philosophy.

[F1boat]

Do you know why I respect Todt so much. He was unapologetic about how the teams are in Ferrari. Ron Dennis and now Horner sugarcoat things. At least, Todt was brutal, but honest.

[Daika]

Do you know why I respect Todt so much. He was unapologetic about how the teams are in Ferrari. Ron Dennis and now Horner sugarcoat things. At least, Todt was brutal, but honest.

I total agree with you. Mclaren "save fuell". Todt response "move out of your way for Schumacher!!!! At least be honest. All the teams do the same but only Ferrari (days of schumacher) they have the guts to tell it the way it is, the truth.

[ArrowsFA1]

Mark Webber hardly needs any more motivation, but his team have just handed some to him. Vettel's always been the favoured driver at Red Bull so no big news there, but their problem has been that Mark's matching his team-mate.

I just hope Mark Webber beats his team-mate, with or without a new front wing.

[wedge]

They have never alienated drivers against the team, especially in the middle of a season where neither driver is dominant.

Mansell and his engineer David Brown did their best efforts to alienate Patrese about how to set the active suspension on the FW14/14B; Piquet couldn't instigate team order he and his engineer played similar games with Mansell in the mid-80s and Honda allegedly favoured Piquet over Mansell.

Prost tried to 'alienate' Senna with a gentleman's agreement with who should win the race from the first corner but then when Senna could beat him it was Prost who felt alienated because he was adamant Honda was favouring Senna

[RJL25]

Just watched an interview between James Allen and Mark Webber on the Australian pre-race show and, i'm paraphrasing a little here to shorten it down, but Webber's version of events basically went along the lines of:

"There probably isn't a lot between the two wings but we don't know for sure because we where still evaluation them, but basically Seb smashed his front wing during practice so they took the wing from my car, but i'm happy with my crew, they have done a really good job getting the car set up well for the race and look the other side of the garage took most of that work as well for Seb's car but thats life"

Sort of confirms those rumors we heard not that long ago that Seb is actually fairly useless at setting the car up and RBR are only really interested in keeping Mark around because he is a "team man" which is Austrian translation for "good at setting up the car for the lead driver"

[ShiftingGears]

Just watched an interview between James Allen and Mark Webber on the Australian pre-race show and, i'm paraphrasing a little here to shorten it down, but Webber's version of events basically went along the lines of:

"There probably isn't a lot between the two wings but we don't know for sure because we where still evaluation them, but basically Seb smashed his front wing during practice so they took the wing from my car, but i'm happy with my crew, they have done a really good job getting the car set up well for the race and look the other side of the garage took most of that work as well for Seb's car but thats life"

I noticed that. Haven't heard reports of Webber's side using Vettel's set-ups at all..

[RJL25]

If this sort of thing continues next year i'm pretty sure Webber will think "I don't need this ****" and walk away from RBR, and he is the sort of person that if that means he doesn't get a drive for 2012, then so be it, he'll just retire.

[RJL25]

my first thought after seeing the first lap - RBR, hahahahahahahahahahahahhahAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHhHAHAHA HHahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahhahahhaha!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[e2mtt]

my first thought after seeing the first lap - RBR, hahahahahahahahahahahahhahAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHhHAHAHA HHahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahhahahhaha!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well said! :-) :-D

last place right now

[markabilly]

Seems Hamilton has defended Webber's virginity and given Vettel a quickie....

[markabilly]

and alonso did the same for his team mate as well

[Dave B]

Justice!

[RJL25]

What? No calling Vettel a chopper for driving straight at Webber off the start? oooh... double standards! ;) :D

[markabilly]

What? No calling Vettel a chopper for driving straight at Webber off the start? oooh... double standards! ;) :D


What??? That was pretty worthless chop, unworthy of any title recognition as the Vestell Virgin could not get it in........


No doubt Brutus will be sending Hamilton some flowers for his little love tap

[AndyL]

my first thought after seeing the first lap - RBR, hahahahahahahahahahahahhahAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHhHAHAHA HHahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahhahahhaha!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D My thought was: karma!

[Valve Bounce]

Seems Hamilton has defended Webber's virginity and given Vettel a quickie....

Nah!! it was Valve Bounce, who put his Malacca hex on Vettel just before the start. If you don't believe, ask jens, because he was there at the chat.

[Garry Walker]

What a pathetic team Red Bull is with their love for that prick, Vettel.
I sincerely hope Webber wins the title this year, he deserves it for having to put up with being treated like sh!t by Red Bull.

I wonder how Vettel fanboys will explain this one.

[Bradley]

Webber is in superform and mentally very strong.

If somebody deserves the title this year, it is Webber.


I also hopes he wins the rest of the pole positions this year, I'm tired of this "yes baby, thank you boys" peptalk by golden boy Vettel.

[Mia 01]

Not bad Mark!

He thanked his team over the radio: Thanks mates, not bad from the second driver (or something like it).

[AndyL]

Webber is in superform and mentally very strong.

Indeed, he must be feeling invincible right now. After this weekend I think he'd still fancy his chances of winning if Christian Horner chained a ship's anchor to the back of his car.

[wedge]

I'm not a fan boy but RBR defended the decision because Golden Boy had more points than Webbo.

[veeten]

It will be interesting to find out, as in two weeks it will be 'home field advantage' for Vettel at Hockenheim.

Stand by for some 'interesting' developments... ;)

[jens]

People like to over-dramatise sitautions with great enjoyment and this is a brilliant example of another such case. Even worse, all of this is gradually turning into a Vettel's personal bash. Media likes to blow things out of proportion and fans come nicely along, enjoying expressing as many negative feelings as possible.

Anyway, Horner's inexperience in dealing with such matters is also showing. It will be interesting to see, what is going to happen in the future though. I think in a way this is inevitable that any dominant team is sooner or later dragged into huge controversy (like for instance Brawn was in Spain '09). The difference is that now RBR is a new guest to such situations. The most important thing is that how can they come out of it and grow into a truly big team.

[PSfan]

Well, I must say, I think Mark is being a little harsh on himself with his post race comments, nobody actually thinks he's number 2... he's just and arsehole, though I can understand his confusion seeing as the two are somewhat related!!!

And why is everyone so focused on one aspect of the decision to give Vettel the new wing. Seemed to me I read that Vettel ahead in the points was one factor, the fact that Vettel gained more the the new wing was another factor which seems to be ignored... Fact is, I really don't care if its blatant team orders, the wing worked better for Vettel, or even the team still feel they owe him for the first 2 races of the season, Webber going all cry baby post race, and airing the dirty laundry to the press would be why I would give Vettel the better/newer parts over Webber... Unlike arsehole Webber, Vettel has been a team player!!!

[truefan72]

Well, I must say, I think Mark is being a little harsh on himself with his post race comments, nobody actually thinks he's number 2... he's just and arsehole, though I can understand his confusion seeing as the two are somewhat related!!!

And why is everyone so focused on one aspect of the decision to give Vettel the new wing. Seemed to me I read that Vettel ahead in the points was one factor, the fact that Vettel gained more the the new wing was another factor which seems to be ignored... Fact is, I really don't care if its blatant team orders, the wing worked better for Vettel, or even the team still feel they owe him for the first 2 races of the season, Webber going all cry baby post race, and airing the dirty laundry to the press would be why I would give Vettel the better/newer parts over Webber... Unlike arsehole Webber, Vettel has been a team player!!!

its easy to be a team player when the entire team is supporting you to the detriment of your teammate. When that team is quick to blame your teammate for a crash you caused. When your team brings two modified wings to the gp, you break yours and they give you your teammates. When your team tries to get your teammate to slow down so you can pass him, even though your teammate is leading the WDC and leading the bloody race.

yeah, its easy to be a team player if you are Vettel
not so much if you are Webber.
I'm no real fan of Webber but in this circumstance it is east to root for him as this situation is the closest thing we have to blatant team bias since the MSC/rubens partnership.

and like many, i am just curious to see what excuse RBR will give at Hockenheim to screw with Webber. The guy may be an arse but the team are clearly that plus the hole

btw there was no dirty laundry to air as it had been already hanging out for all to see.

[F1boat]

its easy to be a team player when the entire team is supporting you to the detriment of your teammate. When that team is quick to blame your teammate for a crash you caused. When your team brings two modified wings to the gp, you break yours and they give you your teammates. When your team tries to get your teammate to slow down so you can pass him, even though your teammate is leading the WDC and leading the bloody race.

yeah, its easy to be a team player if you are Vettel
not so much if you are Webber.
I'm no real fan of Webber but in this circumstance it is east to root for him as this situation is the closest thing we have to blatant team bias since the MSC/rubens partnership.

and like many, i am just curious to see what excuse RBR will give at Hockenheim to screw with Webber. The guy may be an arse but the team are clearly that plus the hole

btw there was no dirty laundry to air as it had been already hanging out for all to see.

Well said.

[markabilly]

its easy to be a team player when the entire team is supporting you to the detriment of your teammate. When that team is quick to blame your teammate for a crash you caused. When your team brings two modified wings to the gp, you break yours and they give you your teammates. When your team tries to get your teammate to slow down so you can pass him, even though your teammate is leading the WDC and leading the bloody race.

yeah, its easy to be a team player if you are Vettel
not so much if you are Webber.
I'm no real fan of Webber but in this circumstance it is east to root for him as this situation is the closest thing we have to blatant team bias since the MSC/rubens partnership.

and like many, i am just curious to see what excuse RBR will give at Hockenheim to screw with Webber. The guy may be an arse but the team are clearly that plus the hole

btw there was no dirty laundry to air as it had been already hanging out for all to see.


BINGO

(BTW--I ain't no fan of the Austrian bunch, although some may think so since I think webber was the one responsible for Turkey, but ever since they dumped Speed for that four eyed frenchie Seabutt or whoever, and brought in the snot nosed Vestall.....well if they want me to root for them, fire either Webber or Vestall or both of them and give me some Speed.... :D ---hades and heckfire, my special mix of kool aid is far better for you than that red cow piss....put some real manly hairs on your chest...just ask my wife)

meanwhile like little mice (or hamsters), Jennie and Lowie are now how far ahead of the Red Cow piss bunch??

Oh and BTW, if you ask her, she will tell you it works great...put many a hair on her chest

[PSfan]

its easy to be a team player when the entire team is supporting you to the detriment of your teammate. When that team is quick to blame your teammate for a crash you caused. When your team brings two modified wings to the gp, you break yours and they give you your teammates. When your team tries to get your teammate to slow down so you can pass him, even though your teammate is leading the WDC and leading the bloody race.

Funny, you bring up Turkey as proof that there was already favoritism, that Vettel was already driver number one, do you know how dumb that sounds when you consider just 1 race prior, Mark won a red bull 1-2 in Monaco?!? And contrary to Red Bulls claim that Vettel's car was damaged, the manner of in which Webber won the race screams strategy was involved. If Vettel is clear #1, Red Bull would have manufactured a pit stop for Webber in Monaco.




yeah, its easy to be a team player if you are Vettel
not so much if you are Webber.
I'm no real fan of Webber but in this circumstance it is east to root for him as this situation is the closest thing we have to blatant team bias since the MSC/rubens partnership.

During the BBC coverage, they mentioned that after Friday practice, that both drivers had to be convinced the new wing was better. Considering there was only 1 left to last qualifying, and the race, I I would assume that should it be required to replace, it would probably compromise the setup to some small degree, I'm not even sure it was wise for Vettel to use it, but during Red Bulls explanation why Vettel was getting the new wing for qualies and race they did point out that he did gain more from it the Webber (A point that people seem to want to ignore against the "Vettel was ahead in standing" explanation) perhaps Red Bull wanted to make sure they had their rivals covered.

But as far as blatant team bias, I'll take Red Bulls defense that if this was truly the case, Mark Webber wouldn't have been given the chance to try out the new wing...


and like many, i am just curious to see what excuse RBR will give at Hockenheim to screw with Webber. The guy may be an arse but the team are clearly that plus the hole

After Webber's latest little "number 2" fart... um I mean outburst, they shouldn't even come out with an excuse... If the perception thats to the spoilt brat Webber is #2 then they should embrace it. Had Vettel won the first 2 races instead of having mechanical issues he would be far ahead of Webber. The team should claim they believe Vettel is their best chance at catching the McLerans and if Webber don't like it, they have a warm seat at Toro Rosso for him.


btw there was no dirty laundry to air as it had been already hanging out for all to see.

My dirty laundry statement wasn't limited to BGP post race. You can believe Red Bull when they say Vettel had more fuel then Webber in Turkey, or you can't but Webber's "conspiracy theory" dig deeper comments is what started this BS. and his "not bad for a number 2" statement today is just continues it. I may doubt some things I hear from Red Bull, But I do Believe them when they say that Vettel was able to save fuel in Turkey, and I do believe them when they say that Vettel gained more from the wing then Webber did, and I also believe them when they claim the weren't favoring Vettel. But if they are gonna be criticized because the perception is that they are favoring Vettel, then maybe they should!

[Valve Bounce]

If RBR had brought only 1 new experimental/faster wing to the race, and they gave it to Vettel who was leading in championship points, I would not have any argument with this.

BUT to take the wing off Mark Webber's car when Vettel damaged his own showed favouritism/bias/call it what you want. This is not the way to promote harmony within a team.

To stretch the point a long, long way, suppose Vettels car was damaged beyond repair on the way to the circuit, then by Horner's reasoning, he would have been fully justified in taking Mark Webber's car off him and giving it to Vettel.

[Ari]

First they blame Webber for his teammate running into him in Turkey (not to mention that they told Webber to turn his engine down and Vettel to turn his up).

Then they give Webber a chasis that they said was so broken that it caused Vettel to be beaten by Webber.

Now they take new parts off Webber's car and give them to Vettel.

To top it all off they maintain that there are no team orders and that everything is just peachy. Red Bull need to go and talk to McLaren about how to be sublte about having a no. 1 driver because right now Red Bull are about as subtle as a turd in a punchbowl.

I just laughed SO hard! :D

[Ari]

You ever hear of Ferrari, McLaren or Williams. They made F-1 history and won championships by alienating drivers.

Yeah but they did it at the start of the season and made sure both drivers were well aware and willing. In this case RBR have told everyone, including their drivers, that there is no team preference. And then goes out and prefers Vettel.

THAT is your problem right there.

[CNR]

Why run it at all if the first one fell off ?

[Ari]

Well, I must say, I think Mark is being a little harsh on himself with his post race comments, nobody actually thinks he's number 2... he's just and arsehole, though I can understand his confusion seeing as the two are somewhat related!!!

And why is everyone so focused on one aspect of the decision to give Vettel the new wing. Seemed to me I read that Vettel ahead in the points was one factor, the fact that Vettel gained more the the new wing was another factor which seems to be ignored... Fact is, I really don't care if its blatant team orders, the wing worked better for Vettel, or even the team still feel they owe him for the first 2 races of the season, Webber going all cry baby post race, and airing the dirty laundry to the press would be why I would give Vettel the better/newer parts over Webber... Unlike arsehole Webber, Vettel has been a team player!!!

No offence and all... but are you on drugs?

[F1boat]

Yeah but they did it at the start of the season and made sure both drivers were well aware and willing. In this case RBR have told everyone, including their drivers, that there is no team preference. And then goes out and prefers Vettel.

THAT is your problem right there.

Yes, I agree.

[winer]

Can we have a poll on this issue? Was Red Bull wrong to give the wing to Vettel?

[Ent]

Funny, you bring up Turkey as proof that there was already favoritism, that Vettel was already driver number one, do you know how dumb that sounds when you consider just 1 race prior, Mark won a red bull 1-2 in Monaco?!? And contrary to Red Bulls claim that Vettel's car was damaged, the manner of in which Webber won the race screams strategy was involved. If Vettel is clear #1, Red Bull would have manufactured a pit stop for Webber in Monaco.

Actually, that sounds far dumber than the original post. A manufactured pit stop would have dropped Webber down the running order and ruined his race. They would have lost their one-two finish and stuffed everything up. They're talking about favourtism, not attempting to ruin a driver. Red Bull as a team still want maximum points. Red Bull were not in a position in Monaco to swap the drivers even if they wanted to as Webber was too fast. The first opportunity they really had to swap drivers was in Turkey where it certainly seems that the team tried to get Vettel in front of Webber, hence why it's a fair example.

[Saint Devote]

Why run it at all if the first one fell off ?

The problem was not with the wing itself but the pins attaching to the car somewhere.

[harsha]

Red Bull gives you wings :cheese:

[Valve Bounce]

This is a fantastic read, plus a gem of a photograph showing Vettel going up to Mark Webber to congratulate him after the race. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/07/red_bull_tensions_reach_new_hi.html

It sums up what most here really feel (withthe exception of a couple of our formum members).

I find interesting Vettel's response after the race: "And Vettel made thinly veiled remarks that seem to have been aimed at Webber: "Sometimes good and bad you get to know people a little better and see their true faces. So I think I have learned my lesson and focus on myself." Maybe he should have a look in the mirror to learn to know himself.

[Saint Devote]

The advantage of the new wing was nullified significantly beause Webber was simply quicker than Vettel all weekend.

Nice result for Brittney too!

[AndyL]

This is a fantastic read, plus a gem of a photograph showing Vettel going up to Mark Webber to congratulate him after the race. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/07/red_bull_tensions_reach_new_hi.html

If that snapshot is an accurate reflection of Webber's feelings then it looks like the situation may be irretrievable.
I also noticed that for the team photo after the race, Adrian Newey sat between the winning driver and the team principal.

[Valve Bounce]

If that snapshot is an accurate reflection of Webber's feelings then it looks like the situation may be irretrievable.
I also noticed that for the team photo after the race, Adrian Newey sat between the winning driver and the team principal.

You could be right. By the way, who was the Red Bull guy who joined the three driverss on the podium?

[markabilly]

If that snapshot is an accurate reflection of Webber's feelings then it looks like the situation may be irretrievable.
I also noticed that for the team photo after the race, Adrian Newey sat between the winning driver and the team principal.


I think that the Austrian corporate world feels the same for Vettel as RD felt for LH as a rookie, and hence will be more than willing to overlook the sins of vettel but not webber.

This weekend, Webber may have won the battle, but lost the war....fair or not, right or not, it does not ultimately matter....

indeed, red bull might not even be willing to give Webber the truck racing ride in nascar that they gave Mr. Speed, after he was terribly abused by that pair of germans, burger and whoseit, and dumped :(

of course, the difference is the consumers of the piss might revolt, that is the only thing stopping them from dumping him as we speak

[AndyL]

You could be right. By the way, who was the Red Bull guy who joined the three driverss on the podium?

Over the radio on the slowing down lap Webber said he wanted "Crunch" on the podium (Mark Lenton, Webber's head mechanic). Don't know if it was him that actually went up because I switched over to the WSB after the end of the race and missed the podium.

[ioan]

You ever hear of Ferrari, McLaren or Williams. They made F-1 history and won championships by alienating drivers.

They have never alienated drivers against the team, especially in the middle of a season where neither driver is dominant.


Huh?!
Just think again.

[ioan]

indeed, red bull might not even be willing to give Webber the truck racing ride in nascar that they gave Mr. Speed, after he was terribly abused by that pair of germans, burger and whoseit, and dumped :(

None of them is German.

[PSfan]

No offence and all... but are you on drugs?

Why, you lookin to score some? Though perhaps you should ask something like that in PM... :p :

though I fail to see how that relates to Webber/Vettel or the new wing...

Of course, maybe you are trying to find some for Mark? But after his post Qualifying comment about wanted to trade starting spots with Alonso I'm sure he already has a supplier.

[PSfan]

Actually, that sounds far dumber than the original post. A manufactured pit stop would have dropped Webber down the running order and ruined his race. They would have lost their one-two finish and stuffed everything up. They're talking about favourtism, not attempting to ruin a driver. Red Bull as a team still want maximum points. Red Bull were not in a position in Monaco to swap the drivers even if they wanted to as Webber was too fast. The first opportunity they really had to swap drivers was in Turkey where it certainly seems that the team tried to get Vettel in front of Webber, hence why it's a fair example.

Admittedly I had gotten Monaco and Spain confused a little, but having given a quick view of Monaco over at visionf1, my point still remains, if Webber truly is #2 at Red Bull they would have managed a position swap somehow at Monaco.

[Saint Devote]

None of them is German.

The Austrians in the Red Bull camp make an error on the marketing side if that is their game.

Webber is a far better marketing personality in places like the United States, Canada, United Kingdom and all the English speaking countries because he is easy to identify with.

That old "question" - who would you like to sit and have a beer with? Webber or Vettel? Webber wins hands downin my view.

Vettel has an aura of "stiffness" as opposed to Mark's affability.

However a busnessman like Mateschitz still surprises me over this and I would love someone to interview him on what has happened at RBR since Istanbul Park.

Red Bull is quickly becoming the BULL team in f1 and while Horner has always looked somewhat slimey to me anyway - now I consider the team managment to be a bunch of liars.

Who the hell is in charge of PR? Helmet Marko?! :eek:

[Valve Bounce]

It was Dietrich Mateschitz who made both Horner and Marko back down on their accusations at Turkey. I just wonder what his take on this controversy is, but I suspect it will not be a happy response from him. I hope he fires Horner.

[TMorel]

Horner has admitted he regrets not talking to Mark before the wing was removed.

That is staggering! They didn't even have the decency to tell him in advance it was going to be taken off !

The more I hear, the more I wonder if Horner even knew it was going to be taken off Mark or if "them upstairs" are pulling all the strings and leaving Christian to face the music on their behalf.

[RJL25]

RBR have shown themeslfs two years in a row to be tactically lacking in chasing a world championship.

Now they are unable to man manage their drivers without causing major problems.

Clearly the problems are coming from the top, Marko and Horner have to go, no doubt about it.

[Saint Devote]

Neither will be sent packing because decisions like these come directly from Vienna.

And what does not help is Vettel's de facto manager, BCE, weighing in and declaring that the German will be the WDC in 2010 and that he would never have believed that Webber could have performed like this.

[wedge]

The Austrians in the Red Bull camp make an error on the marketing side if that is their game.

Webber is a far better marketing personality in places like the United States, Canada, United Kingdom and all the English speaking countries because he is easy to identify with.

That old "question" - who would you like to sit and have a beer with? Webber or Vettel? Webber wins hands downin my view.

Vettel has an aura of "stiffness" as opposed to Mark's affability.

Not particularly politically correct and dare I say bordering on racist remarks.

[Mia 01]

Mark is burning bridges.

[truefan72]

Not particularly politically correct and dare I say bordering on racist remarks.

what else did you expect?
he manages to boil down a multinational outfit actually based in england with 2 drivers from germany and Australia and a parent company with a truly global reach and sports sponsorships into a simplistic "the austrians" view of matters.

RBR are making decisions vis-a-vis the vettel/webber thing based on driver preference and fear of losing vettel to ferrari rather than any nationalist sentiments or global marketing strategies for the drinks.

The company is doing quite well without the need of either driver being their face men. In fact so well that they managed to buy 2 F1 teams and run them with their own advertising on there.

[Garry Walker]

Not particularly politically correct and dare I say bordering on racist remarks.

:rotflmao:

1) political correctness is for fools.
2) What on earth was RACIST about his post?

[Saint Devote]

Not particularly politically correct and dare I say bordering on racist remarks.

What?! You really do fling them out of the left field :D

First of all, I am not and never will be politically correct - that is for those who feel guilt over something or want to disguise the truth. I like reality.

As for your "racist remark" point at me - it is extremely rude to make such a serious accusation as you have now and then not motivate your attack.

Please do so or I think admitting your were mistaken is in order.

[Saint Devote]

:rotflmao:

1) political correctness is for fools.
2) What on earth was RACIST about his post?

Thank you for speaking up. I do appreciate it :s mokin:

[wedge]

What?! You really do fling them out of the left field :D

First of all, I am not and never will be politically correct - that is for those who feel guilt over something or want to disguise the truth. I like reality.

As for your "racist remark" point at me - it is extremely rude to make such a serious accusation as you have now and then not motivate your attack.

Please do so or I think admitting your were mistaken is in order.

Why on earth would Webber be an acceptable face of RB for native English speakers?

[Garry Walker]

Why on earth would Webber be an acceptable face of RB for native English speakers?

Please answer my post where I asked why you considered his post racist.

[CNR]

hans-stuck-red-bull-racing-formula-1-team-should-replace-marko-with-tost
http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=23484:f1--hans-stuck-red-bull-racing-formula-1-team-should-replace-marko-with-tost&catid=1:f1&Itemid=157

[wedge]

Please answer my post where I asked why you considered his post racist.

Christ Almighty

'Dare I say it' is another expression for 'Devi's Advocate' which suggests that there are others who are more or less retarded than I am.

[Saint Devote]

Why on earth would Webber be an acceptable face of RB for native English speakers?

Because he comes from an Englsih speaking country and declaring - for example - in English that he "enjoys shrimp on the barbie with his Sheilah and a Red Bull" will deliver a better message because its not only what is said but also the nuances from the picture.

In the same way that Vettel would better delivering a line in an ad for people watching in Innsbruck, Zug or Berlin.

There are differences between cultures and people DO respond better to those who they can identify most closely with.

Do you think that Red Bull has showed favortism to Vettel because he is not Germanic?

In the United States this sort of advertising is plentiful and in fact if it is NOT done then shrieks are heard.

Now you may not like it, but this world IS the way it is.

Was it not Mercedes that has employed German drivers through choice - and two very different Germans at that. Are you now going to accuse them of racism?

Namecalling is not desireable here. You could have made your point without resorting it.

As an Israeli I am used the world calling us many things no matter what we do, so your performance does not bother me unduly.

I know who I am and what I am. I do however think that you went about disagreeing with me the wrong way.

[Saint Devote]

Christ Almighty

'Dare I say it' is another expression for 'Devi's Advocate' which suggests that there are others who are more or less retarded than I am.

So you do not answer the man's question but turn to insulting him?

Do not pick arguments here or make accusations if you have nothing to back it up. It reflects YOU in an exceptionally bad light in addition to contravening the rules of this message board.

So either put up or - you know the rest.

[CNR]

what would really be better for red bull ?

vettel f1

or

webber f1 and The Mark Webber Pure Tasmania Challenge
http://markwebberchallenge.com/

[ShiftingGears]

Because he comes from an Englsih speaking country and declaring - for example - in English that he "enjoys shrimp on the barbie with his Sheilah and a Red Bull" will deliver a better message because its not only what is said but also the nuances from the picture.


If anyone actually said that it would be embarrassing.


Drivers don't need to be from english speaking backgrounds to sell themselves more. Federer and Nadal are both more marketable in Australia than Hewitt is, for example.

It's more to do with personality. Because it's not like Vettel can't speak proper english.

[Saint Devote]

If anyone actually said that it would be embarrassing.


Drivers don't need to be from english speaking backgrounds to sell themselves more. Federer and Nadal are both more marketable in Australia than Hewitt is, for example.

It's more to do with personality. Because it's not like Vettel can't speak proper english.

I have heard of Nadal and Federer I have never heard of Hewitt - I have never been interested in tennis - or any other sports for that matter as far as being a fan or supporter is concerned.

So I don't know what these people are like.

Again - I think that Rosberg would be suitable where Vettel is not - both German but Brittney is cosmopolitan and does not have that "formality" as Vettel does.

I was referring to Vettel versus Webber and it was Wedge that raised the issue as some sort of bias.

And companies or brands NEVER assess ads based on anything such as culture, ethnicity or whateever :rolleyes:

Anyway - as far as I am concerned this matter is closed - I stand by my point - and y'all are welcome to your own.

Saionara.

[CNR]

I have heard of Nadal and Federer I have never heard of Hewitt - I have never been interested in tennis - or any other sports for that matter as far as being a fan or supporter is concerned.

So I don't know what these people are like.

Again - I think that Rosberg would be suitable where Vettel is not - both German but Brittney is cosmopolitan and does not have that "formality" as Vettel does.

I was referring to Vettel versus Webber and it was Wedge that raised the issue as some sort of bias.

And companies or brands NEVER assess ads based on anything such as culture, ethnicity or whateever :rolleyes:



Anyway - as far as I am concerned this matter is closed - I stand by my point - and y'all are welcome to your own.

Saionara.

COME ON
TENNIS

[Garry Walker]

Christ Almighty

'Dare I say it' is another expression for 'Devi's Advocate' which suggests that there are others who are more or less retarded than I am.

So you are now backtracking on your racism accusations of him and admit there was nothing racist about his post, or what?

[Valve Bounce]

TENNIS
..................anyone? :p :

[wedge]

So you are now backtracking on your racism accusations of him and admit there was nothing racist about his post, or what?

I was implying that at worst it could have been interpreted racist and doesn't necessarily mean I fully advocate it hence I specifically used the term "dare I say it"

I take it you've never played Devil's Advocate before and never pretended to be a lefty?


So you do not answer the man's question but turn to insulting him?

Do not pick arguments here or make accusations if you have nothing to back it up. It reflects YOU in an exceptionally bad light in addition to contravening the rules of this message board.

So either put up or - you know the rest.

Please tell you've never found Garry Walker's remarks disrespectful/insulting.

Unless you're politically correct there are worse things in life than to be insulted and accused of being racist.

[Saint Devote]

Please tell you've never found Garry Walker's remarks disrespectful/insulting.

Unless you're politically correct there are worse things in life than to be insulted and accused of being racist.

Previous comments by GW are not relevant or pertinent to this post.

You are just fortunate that you were not banned or maybe you are one of those that are allowed to say essentially anything here - of course had you done the same to Lewis Hamilton, you would have been booted from here before you could press the enter button.

[Mia 01]

RBR needs to get rid of Webber. NOW.

[wedge]

Previous comments by GW are not relevant or pertinent to this post.

You are just fortunate that you were not banned or maybe you are one of those that are allowed to say essentially anything here - of course had you done the same to Lewis Hamilton, you would have been booted from here before you could press the enter button.

http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=93

[ioan]

RBR needs to get rid of Webber. NOW.

Do you want your beloved Kimi at RBR, Mercedes or Ferrari? Or you just want every team to get rid of their drivers?! :rolleyes:

[CNR]

RBR needs to get rid of Webber. NOW.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1295625/Mark-Webber-issues-warning-F1-title-rival-Sebastian-Vettel.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#ixzz0tzFQK2Wx


Webber said: 'There is respect both ways. That's why I will be staying with Red Bull next season. I am part of a sensational team.'



Webber absolved his team-mate of any blame for the Silverstone shenanigans, saying: 'Seb did nothing wrong all weekend. After the race, he shook my hand.

[Saint Devote]

Of course he shook Webber's hand - whats the alternative in sport?

Has nobody here played a sport when you have to shake the opposition's hand and smile even though you are doing it through clenched teeth?

And the drivers have to find a way because one more problem like this and RBR will CRATER into opposing camps and there will be no way back.

Do not be surprised to see Herr Mateschitz himself in the pits next weekend and not only because the grand prix is close to home.

Dietrich M has one mission in mind this season - the Constructors Championship. And he realizes that Jense and Lewis will not compromise the Mclaren machine because they are a team of equals without "issues" - they understand that there will be days for each of them.

If RBR lose the titles this year, it will be a repeat of the 2007 season when Mclaren had it all for the taking until their team broke apart and Dennis mismanaged the situation because of HIS bias for Hamilton.

[Saint Devote]

So Mark Webber now says he should not have been so public?

Will the real Webber please step forward.

Is he being a master tactician with this apparent softening in his stance seeking the "enemy" to let down their guard? That could all be revealed the next time they start a grand prix.

Or is he doing something that a champion like Schumacher or Senna or Prost would bever have done - compromise.

Perhaps he has had a talk with Mateschitz - in which case he should have not have agreed to have made a statement that effectively undermines his position.

If it is to try and reduce the wariness of the opposition within the RBR team then it is a short-term tactic at best.

Anything else and it raises the question whether Webber has the emotional moxie to actually win this championship. Perhaps Webber is more bravado than he appeared to be.

[ShiftingGears]

I just think he was being genuine in admitting he ran off at the mouth. But no doubt Mateschitz has given an order for everyone at RBR to effectively STFU and stop undermining the team/drivers.

[Saint Devote]

I just think he was being genuine in admitting he ran off at the mouth. But no doubt Mateschitz has given an order for everyone at RBR to effectively STFU and stop undermining the team/drivers.

I think it is a mistake - what has Vettel done? Nothing.

Mark has to decide either he wants that championship and is going to destroy Vettel psychologically or he is a patsy.

Webber should have said nothing and not even referred to the eveny when asked. He looks soft now.

[PSfan]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1295625/Mark-Webber-issues-warning-F1-title-rival-Sebastian-Vettel.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#ixzz0tzFQK2Wx



Mark Webber has warned Red Bull that his rivalry with team-mate and fellow world title contender Sebastian Vettel could explode again at any time.

RBR needs to get rid of Webber. NOW.

:cheese:

[PSfan]

I think it is a mistake - what has Vettel done? Nothing.

As I've mentioned already, considering Vettel's mechanical gremlins, his extra DNF, and Mark's extra win, Seb is looking pretty good by only being 7 points down on Webber, Vettel's done nothing? that doesn't say much about Webber either...


Mark has to decide either he wants that championship and is going to destroy Vettel psychologically or he is a patsy.

Mark has to look at the championship standing and realize that while the Red Bull is clearly the best car on the grid, the drivers are 3 and 4th in the championship and if he really was a team player, he would do everything in his power to move both he, and Vettel ahead of those Mcleran drivers.


Webber should have said nothing and not even referred to the eveny when asked. He looks soft now.

I've managed to develop a new theory on the events, I think it would have been logical with only 2 of the new wings that only one of the drivers where gonna qualify/race with it, even before the one on Vettel's car fell off in practice. With the way the Red Bull wings where covered even during friday practice, I think Webber and Flav where prepping us for this very scenario. I think Had Webber gotten the new wing, he would have been made out as the guinea pig, Vettel get the new wing, he got the better wing, and either way showing favoritism towards Vettel.

As for his turn of face, "I shouldn't have made this public" bs... I'll read mission accomplished into that. I'm sure that Mark's gotten all kinds of assurances that there currently isn't favoritism and won't be at the next race unless Webber gets the newer parts, and he's brought it to the public fore, So Red Bull will really have to thread lightly as not to have this controversy spark up again...

But most of all, I think this whole "wing-gate" saga has once again pointed out just how big a hypocrite Mark is... I think he deserves all the sympathy from being treated like a number 2 driver has he showed Pizzonia when he made similar rublings when they where both at Jaguar...

[Saint Devote]

In 2009 Jenson Button was given a good car and made good use of it by effectively dominating the first half of the WDC and winning the title.

He was accused of being "unworthy" and other such nonsense because the "car was so good".

He was also considered by many that ought to have known better to be "past it" and so on.

Vettel on the other hand is proclaimed as the "next Schumi" and given a car that is the class of the field yet he has accomplsihed what at this stage? Two wins and fourth in the title race so far.

His lesser rated teammate has qualified on pole equally and has won three grands prix as well as now being ahead in the WDC.

Despite overt preference in the team, Vettel is no example of great performance.

At this stage the German driver cannot be too proud of himself.

Thats the difference between Jense and Vettel - the former ALWAYS does his best and his supporters have NEVER had reason to not be proud of him. Jense is not the quickest driver in f1 but there is nobody more special.

Vettel supporters cannot say the same at all.

To Jense from his supporters: thanks so much indeed!

[Saint Devote]

I liked the headline Autosport gave their British Grand Prix report on Thursday:

Red Bull Gived You OLD Wings :D

[Valve Bounce]

The way I see it, if there was one new wing and they gave that wing to Vettel because he was leading, then that is hardly contentious. But there were two wings, Vettel damaged his, and they took the wing off Webber's car and gave it to Vettel. Now that is just plain stupid. You are not going to develop team harmony by taking bits off one guys car to fit onto the other guy's car.

I see some just fail to understand the logic of what really happened with this team.

[PSfan]

In 2009 Jenson Button

Um unless you are implying that it was actually Jenson who snuck into the Red Bull garage after fp3 and swapped the wings himself your "Jenson Button is the greatest living thing in the whole wide universe" doesn't belong in this thread...

[Retro Formula 1]

In 2009 Jenson Button was given a good car and made good use of it by effectively dominating the first half of the WDC and winning the title.

He was accused of being "unworthy" and other such nonsense because the "car was so good".

He was also considered by many that ought to have known better to be "past it" and so on.

Vettel on the other hand is proclaimed as the "next Schumi" and given a car that is the class of the field yet he has accomplsihed what at this stage? Two wins and fourth in the title race so far.

His lesser rated teammate has qualified on pole equally and has won three grands prix as well as now being ahead in the WDC.

Despite overt preference in the team, Vettel is no example of great performance.

At this stage the German driver cannot be too proud of himself.

Thats the difference between Jense and Vettel - the former ALWAYS does his best and his supporters have NEVER had reason to not be proud of him. Jense is not the quickest driver in f1 but there is nobody more special.

Vettel supporters cannot say the same at all.

To Jense from his supporters: thanks so much indeed!

Once all the sycophantic nonsense has been stripped out of this post, it makes good sense.

Jenson did a great job for the team and himself last year. He had a nervous end to the season which was probably more in his own head but after having an advantage for the first few races, drove well and brought home the championship. As far as personal opinions about him being not worthy :laugh: I think we can all see he is doing a comparable job against who I think is the best driver in F1 in the McLaren team this year.

With Seb, we are seeing some serious issues. Crashing into his team mate and over aggressive driving has seriously damaged his chances. The RBR car is still ahead of the field as far as performance goes but he is lagging seriously in the standings. At the end of the day, you have to look at results and ultimatly bulls**t takes it's walk.

[Bagwan]

As I've mentioned already, considering Vettel's mechanical gremlins, his extra DNF, and Mark's extra win, Seb is looking pretty good by only being 7 points down on Webber, Vettel's done nothing? that doesn't say much about Webber either...



Mark has to look at the championship standing and realize that while the Red Bull is clearly the best car on the grid, the drivers are 3 and 4th in the championship and if he really was a team player, he would do everything in his power to move both he, and Vettel ahead of those Mcleran drivers.



I've managed to develop a new theory on the events, I think it would have been logical with only 2 of the new wings that only one of the drivers where gonna qualify/race with it, even before the one on Vettel's car fell off in practice. With the way the Red Bull wings where covered even during friday practice, I think Webber and Flav where prepping us for this very scenario. I think Had Webber gotten the new wing, he would have been made out as the guinea pig, Vettel get the new wing, he got the better wing, and either way showing favoritism towards Vettel.

As for his turn of face, "I shouldn't have made this public" bs... I'll read mission accomplished into that. I'm sure that Mark's gotten all kinds of assurances that there currently isn't favoritism and won't be at the next race unless Webber gets the newer parts, and he's brought it to the public fore, So Red Bull will really have to thread lightly as not to have this controversy spark up again...

But most of all, I think this whole "wing-gate" saga has once again pointed out just how big a hypocrite Mark is... I think he deserves all the sympathy from being treated like a number 2 driver has he showed Pizzonia when he made similar rublings when they where both at Jaguar...

The "vicious prawn" is just a taste of what's to come PSfan .
Twill not be as "sauer" for the "kraut" on home soil , as the team serves up a dish of loose nuts for #1 .
Maybe Marky can get those watchdogs that McLaren had for Lulu and Fred to come in and keep that awful Marko from barbequeing without a licence .

Crank the conspiracy a 180 , and we get Seb wondering who that mechanical gremlin was in those first races ,because he would have walked away from this "not bad for a number two driver" talk with fifty or so more points in pocket .

[CNR]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/redbull/7899112/Red-Bull-owner-Dietrich-Mateschitz-insists-F1-team-has-no-No-1-and-No-2-driver.html

Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz has broken his silence in the team’s ongoing driver favouritism row to declare that he would rather lose this year’s championship than back one of his charges over the other.

[Saint Devote]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/redbull/7899112/Red-Bull-owner-Dietrich-Mateschitz-insists-F1-team-has-no-No-1-and-No-2-driver.html

Its way past time that DM waded publicly into this situation.

The problem is if he denies triggering the situation and Horner declares he had no choice then who are the mystery Austrian bosses that sent the directive?

I reckon DM is talking out of both sides. He has witnessed the diabolical pr that it triggered in front of the MOST knowledgeable crowd in racing and the circuit was chockers.

He declares that he does not mind losing the championships? At least Ron Dennis doesn't spin this nonsense. This looks more like the wholesale bs that is lapped up during elections in the United States.

A team has to have a strong principle leading it at the helm. Just like any army unit. What he says AT THE TRACK is law.

In my view this whole issue returns to the weak commander that RBR has, Horner. He should have made the proper decision and stood up to the Austrians.

[Bagwan]

Webber , according to one engineer , didn't want the wing until they offered it to Vettel .
http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/23634.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

[wedge]

It's been claimed Webber was given old chassis but Horner has put another 'spin' on the front wing debacle by revealing that Webber had a new floor and a lighter chassis.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/07/listen-ja-on-f1-grand-prix-special-with-eddie-irvine/

[Ent]

They would have had to make it lighter as Webber weighs more than Vettel. Seriously, this topic has had it's 15 minutes and more. Isn't it time we all moved on, at least until we actually get something new happening that we talk about.

[Dave B]

Isn't it time we all moved on, at least until we actually get something new happening that we talk about.
You're not from round here, are you? :p

[Bagwan]

I think thats called having that competitive edge over your teammate, and although the story is abit of a none event, it also doesn't justify against the stance that Webber really should have been informed of something as significant as a front wing being removed from his car. Horner has apologised and admitted this in hindsight and hopefully the communication glitch concerning Red Bull's management is being worked on so we don't see more embarrassing incidents like this in the future.

Perhaps a non-event , but it shows what opinion at least one of the engineers has of Webber .

He had better be quick enough in future to be worth suffering his mouth .

[truefan72]

Perhaps a non-event , but it shows what opinion at least one of the engineers has of Webber .

He had better be quick enough in future to be worth suffering his mouth .

I think webber has been plenty quick this year and is in the wdc title hunt lying 3rd behind the two macs

[Mia 01]

http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/6271420/-Webber-didn-t-like-new-wing-at-first-



""I am very surprised by Mark's outburst. When he used the new front wing he complained that it didn't work much better than the old one. Mark didn't have a good feeling about the wing.

"However, when the team had only one left, Mark was desperate to get it despite the fact that he didn't care about it when we had two new wings.

"Unlike Mark, Sebastian was happy with the new wing right from the start. We believe that the team management's decision was reasoned and logical."

[Saint Devote]

With Webber now apparently backtracking and all these stories appearing - it is just making the situation look worse.

Webber is beginning to look like he does not know his own mind and is amaking fools out of those who like myself have defended him. Is this man a whimp?

As for the lighter floor for him alone? Huh? Why on earth would any team proivide a heavier floor to another driver? And at what stage does it become a rules issue?

Horner is a real BS Artist and the more he opens his mouth on this the longer his nose is getting! I have never like the look of him and this issue has only cemented my shyster view of this weak obnoxious little elf.

[Ent]

As for the lighter floor for him alone? Huh? Why on earth would any team proivide a heavier floor to another driver? And at what stage does it become a rules issue?

Car weights at the end of the race include the weight of a driver. As Webber weighs more than Vettel, when they gave him Vettel's old car, they could remove the difference in weight between the drivers from the car, thus ending up with an equal total car (+ driver) weight for both cars. They obviously decided this weight could come from the floor.

Overall, there is a slight disadvantage to the heavier driver (Webber in this case), as the body weight is concentrated in the cockpit, while for a lighter driver, they can spread the extra weight across the car for better balance. This, of course, depends on the overall car design.

[CNR]

http://www.girlracer.co.uk/motorsport/kate-walker/5822-an-open-letter-to-red-bull-racing.html


This whole thing is a complete mess and Red Bull seem to have forgotten what they have previously said.


. Mark Webber signed his 2011 contract with redbull on Saturday night during the Turkish Grand Prix weekend, but you sat on the announcement until the middle of the following week. The statement was released at the perfect time to quash suspicions of favouritism, as the pragmatic Webber would never knowingly sign up to be a number two.

[Saint Devote]

Car weights at the end of the race include the weight of a driver. As Webber weighs more than Vettel, when they gave him Vettel's old car, they could remove the difference in weight between the drivers from the car, thus ending up with an equal total car (+ driver) weight for both cars. They obviously decided this weight could come from the floor.

Overall, there is a slight disadvantage to the heavier driver (Webber in this case), as the body weight is concentrated in the cockpit, while for a lighter driver, they can spread the extra weight across the car for better balance. This, of course, depends on the overall car design.

I know that there is a minimum weight which was increased for this year - I was thinking of the structural thing where any alteration could require a retesting. But then the floor is not part of the safety structure anyway.

[Saint Devote]

Red Bull said themselves through Horner that they give the advantage to the driver who is ahead in the championship, hence the lighter floor going to.... Oh wait, thats contradictory. :eek:

This whole thing is a complete mess and Red Bull seem to have forgotten what they have previously said. First they said pre Silverstone that Webber was getting the damaged chassis Vettel used earlier in the season, then the wing fiasco. Then they said Vettel got the new wing because he is ahead of Webber on points and their policy is to give the advantage of new components to the leader etc etc.. Now they are saying Webber had a lighter chassis therefore had a weight advantage over Vettel even though he was trailing Vettel in the points??? lol

I think if Horner is struggling to understand what is going on, I can't see how Webber would be any wiser. I expect an element of backtracking from Webber because his team were not exactly open about what was going on at Silverstone and maybe there is some sense we are unaware of. Its certainly unsettled the team and is contributing to Mclaren getting a healthy lead in both championships, and as the season progresses both Mclaren and Ferrari are developing their cars and closing the gap. All three teams will have the blown diffuser and F-duct in Hockenheim, and I have a feeling Red Bull will be seething that they've blown their advantage of having by far the most superior car on the grid for the first half of the season. :)

The ineptitude of RBR has indeed been evident since the start of the season - remember their strategy fiasco in Australia for example and they are handling this like rank amateurs.

Jense made best use of his car in 2009 while Vettel and RBR this year just shown the doubters that it is not at all easy to have a dominant car and win with it.

It also illustrates the good temperement that Hamilton had back in 2007 and definitely how vital the guidance of a good team principle is. Martin Whitmarsh is superb and it has been reflected in the Mclaren team.

Button is his first signing and I am convinced that it would not have been done if Dennis had still been at the race helm.

There is still half a season to go, and if RBR do not at least clinch the constructors title it will be remembered for a magnificent failure.

With Newey, Williams and Mclaren did not fail when their cars were in this position.

[I am evil Homer]

Can you please stop brining Jenson Button into everything you post. It's really boring now.

[Retro Formula 1]

I think there is a bit of smoke and mirrors here.

Lightened floor simply means they remove some Densimet or whatever they're using these days. Basically, it's fixed to the floor to give the lowest CoG and best weight distribution depending on the drivers proportions.

Christian Horner being a bit cheeky I think.

[airshifter]

I think there is a bit of smoke and mirrors here.

Lightened floor simply means they remove some Densimet or whatever they're using these days. Basically, it's fixed to the floor to give the lowest CoG and best weight distribution depending on the drivers proportions.

Christian Horner being a bit cheeky I think.


I'm assuming Densimet is the ballast substance?


One thing for sure, Red Bull management need to put both drivers in line and get on with it. They have no excuse to not be the 1 and 2 drivers in the WDC standings right now. I'd be reminding them why they get paid the amounts they do.

[Retro Formula 1]

I'm assuming Densimet is the ballast substance?


It's a Tungsten alloy with very similar density to raw material but much easier to work with and machine. Tungsten itself it a bloody nightmare unless you're just using cast billets where Densimet can be incorporated into structures like floors much easier.


One thing for sure, Red Bull management need to put both drivers in line and get on with it. They have no excuse to not be the 1 and 2 drivers in the WDC standings right now. I'd be reminding them why they get paid the amounts they do.

You are 100% right but I hope you are proved wrong :D

[ioan]

Overall, there is a slight disadvantage to the heavier driver (Webber in this case), as the body weight is concentrated in the cockpit, while for a lighter driver, they can spread the extra weight across the car for better balance. This, of course, depends on the overall car design.

The problem is that there is no better solution.
Even if they imposed a minimum weight without driver weight then the heavier drivers would have an overall heavier car and would still complain.

IMO the solution used now is fairer.

[Ari]

You're not from round here, are you? :p

:D

[Mia 01]

Seb is not the "bad guy" in the team.