Safety car procedures revamped... [Archive]

mstillhere

8th July 2010, 19:25

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85072

That obviously implies that what LH did was very wrong. But rather than punishing him on the spot for doing something highly dangerous the FIA rather come up with a new rule, continuing with the dumming down of F1.

Bagwan

8th July 2010, 19:44

It's "Hammy rule II" .
He should be proud .

What is the record for number of rules prompted by a single driver's actions ?

Anubis

8th July 2010, 19:56

That obviously implies that what LH did was very wrong. But rather than punishing him on the spot for doing something highly dangerous the FIA rather come up with a new rule, continuing with the dumming down of F1.

I'm no Hamilton fanboy, but I'm struggling to see how all this is his fault? He broke the rules (knowingly or otherwise) and was punished. The fact circumstances contrived to make the punishment have very little impact is no reflection on Hamilton, it's a reflection on how the FIA implement their rules. The incident has exposed flaws in the rules that the FIA have now moved to fix. Not quite sure I see how that amounts to dumming(sic) down? If anything it makes life more complicated, as the teams have yet more things to consider and potentially exploit to their benefit.

mstillhere

8th July 2010, 20:49

I'm no Hamilton fanboy, but I'm struggling to see how all this is his fault? He broke the rules (knowingly or otherwise) and was punished. The fact circumstances contrived to make the punishment have very little impact is no reflection on Hamilton, it's a reflection on how the FIA implement their rules. The incident has exposed flaws in the rules that the FIA have now moved to fix. Not quite sure I see how that amounts to dumming(sic) down? If anything it makes life more complicated, as the teams have yet more things to consider and potentially exploit to their benefit.

I don't want to digress here, but LH showed remarkable selfishness not understanding the severity of the emergency situation (that's when the SC comes out right?) turning Mark's accident into his own advantage. It's actually at the human level. He showed little regard towards it. That's on top of the lying, of course.

PS I am sure when you see an ambulance with all the lights on behind your car pull over, I am sure you pull over. It's the only decent thing to do.

truefan72

8th July 2010, 22:59

I don't want to digress here, but LH showed remarkable selfishness not understanding the severity of the emergency situation (that's when the SC comes out right?) turning Mark's accident into his own advantage. It's actually at the human level. He showed little regard towards it. That's on top of the lying, of course.

PS I am sure when you see an ambulance with all the lights on behind your car pull over, I am sure you pull over. It's the only decent thing to do.

nonsense

this is was not the first time a car was ahead of the SC and raced tot he pits.
My God, Vettel did it, as did all the other cars that passed the incident and made it to the pits before the SC came out.

May i remind you if he was about a quarter of a second quicker, there would have been no penalty and nothing to talk about.

Instead we get folks coming out of the woodworks with comical statements like Hamilton was selfish etc for what really was a non issue overblown by Alonso, who since has back peddled from his outlandish statements ( since he figures in another race he might be the guy ahead) so why can't the fans do the same.

mstillhere

8th July 2010, 23:21

I'll tell you this:
had been MS (as someone else wrote in a different thread) doing the same thing right now he will be sitting at the Norinmberg court room being accused of major human rights violations not to mention lying to the whole humanity.
I now you pretend not to undersdtand the issue. The situation is rather simple: WHEN YOU SEE THE SC COMING OUT YOU DON'T SPEED UP. YOU SLOW DOWN. PERIOD. Vetten did not pass the SC and I ifs and buts are pointless discussing.

The irony of all this is that Whiting himself, is involved in the creation of this new rule. I am sure you don't agree with it since you find nothing wrong with what LH did. Right?

nonsense

this is was not the first time a car was ahead of the SC and raced tot he pits.
My God, Vettel did it, as did all the other cars that passed the incident and made it to the pits before the SC came out.

May i remind you if he was about a quarter of a second quicker, there would have been no penalty and nothing to talk about.

Instead we get folks coming out of the woodworks with comical statements like Hamilton was selfish etc for what really was a non issue overblown by Alonso, who since has back peddled from his outlandish statements ( since he figures in another race he might be the guy ahead) so why can't the fans do the same.

motetarip

9th July 2010, 00:09

Hawkmoon

9th July 2010, 00:24

If you see the safety car coming out and you think theres a chance that you could be ahead by the relevant line, and gain the subsequent advantage, you should go for it. Hammy went for it, didn't make it and got penalised. I don't see why we should get melodramatic about safety issues regarding the Webber incident, it's not really a factor.

That's not quite right. Hamilton slowed when he initially came up on the safety car exiting the pits and then jumped back on the gas and passed it. That's why he passed it after the safety car line and was penalised. If he'd stayed on the gas he would have passed the safety car before the line and escaped penalty.

That says to me that his first reaction was to slow down stay behind the safety car. He quickly changed his mind. Competitve desire overriding better judgement perhaps?

Jag_Warrior

9th July 2010, 04:51

mstillhere

9th July 2010, 04:56

If you see the safety car coming out and you think theres a chance that you could be ahead by the relevant line, and gain the subsequent advantage, you should go for it. Hammy went for it, didn't make it and got penalised. I don't see why we should get melodramatic about safety issues regarding the Webber incident, it's not really a factor.

So, IYO seeing the SC on the track is pretty much meaninless. "Yes there could be somebody smashed on the ground but let me see if I can turn that into my advantage". Sir, that's moraly wrong and shows no sportsmanship whatsever. (Something MS has been accused a million times of) If LH has to score points by having to use other people misfortune, I wish him and good luck. Mr. Hamilton convinced himself that cheating and lying is more rewarding than competing honestly. That's supported by the numerous reprimends he has received and the quite frequent rule revisions his constant misconduct has caused. Let me reassure you though, that's not how you win a world championship. At least not morally.
And I am done talking about this topic. The new rule clearly shows who had it all wrong.

Jag_Warrior

9th July 2010, 05:26

http://dailyabuse.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/july_1_snooze.jpg

Roamy

9th July 2010, 05:27

perfect Jag !!

truefan72

9th July 2010, 08:32

That's not quite right. Hamilton slowed when he initially came up on the safety car exiting the pits and then jumped back on the gas and passed it. That's why he passed it after the safety car line and was penalised. If he'd stayed on the gas he would have passed the safety car before the line and escaped penalty.

That says to me that his first reaction was to slow down stay behind the safety car. He quickly changed his mind. Competitve desire overriding better judgement perhaps?

and if he did not pump his brakes and continued, there would be no penalty and his "judgement would not be in question. right?

truefan72

9th July 2010, 08:32

http://dailyabuse.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/july_1_snooze.jpg

true

wmcot

9th July 2010, 09:22

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85072

Leave it to the FIA to find a very complex way to handle the situation when a simple solution had already been proposed. We could have had: 1. Close pitlane, 2. Line up behind the SC.

But instead, we get new "delta" times and doesn't affect the last 200 m of the lap (who's going to measure to make sure the car wasn't racing 201 meters before the end of the lap?) And cars must slow to the predicted pace of the SC - who's prediction?

Get somebody in a high position with some basic, common sense!

ArrowsFA1

9th July 2010, 09:52

That obviously implies that what LH did was very wrong.
It tells me that the rules governing the use of the safety car were flawed, as highlighted in Valencia and Monaco.

The FIA have responded to the issues raised in both instances and revised their rules. That's refreshing. Time will tell whether or not the revisions will work as intended.

ArrowsFA1

9th July 2010, 10:12

What is the record for number of rules prompted by a single driver's actions ?
I think a sometime F2 peddler by the name of Mosley holds that record :p :

Dave B

9th July 2010, 10:50

Leave it to the FIA to find a very complex way to handle the situation when a simple solution had already been proposed. We could have had: 1. Close pitlane, 2. Line up behind the SC.

But instead, we get new "delta" times and doesn't affect the last 200 m of the lap (who's going to measure to make sure the car wasn't racing 201 meters before the end of the lap?) And cars must slow to the predicted pace of the SC - who's prediction?

Get somebody in a high position with some basic, common sense!
Aye, it's a $50 soultion to a $5 problem, and yet again exposes the flaws in the FIA's rulebook.

I've said before and I'll say again, the rules need to clearer and the punishments defined. If you do this, we'll punish you with that. None of this wooly post-race lottery where they might add 5 seconds, 10 seconds, 25 seconds, give you a grid penalty, fine you, fine the team, or immediate cessation of chocolate rations... (and a cynic might suggest that it depends on who transgressed and their position in the championship).

markabilly

9th July 2010, 11:10

Leave it to the FIA to find a very complex way to handle the situation when a simple solution had already been proposed. We could have had: 1. Close pitlane, 2. Line up behind the SC.

But instead, we get new "delta" times and doesn't affect the last 200 m of the lap (who's going to measure to make sure the car wasn't racing 201 meters before the end of the lap?) And cars must slow to the predicted pace of the SC - who's prediction?

Get somebody in a high position with some basic, common sense!
spend a dollar to make a nickel....

if it was unclear and too complicated before, they really solved that problem........ :rolleyes:

But I am relieved, because the potential remains that after the next SC period, we will have even more to talk about on the net then we did before.... :up:

markabilly

9th July 2010, 11:12

http://dailyabuse.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/july_1_snooze.jpg
wait till pino sees this, you are in trouble just like me for posting stuff that has not got an F1 car in it....Pino will never understand...

but I always wondered what you looked like...

donKey jote

9th July 2010, 11:18

Another point in this whole debate which is being largely glossed over is the fact that had Lewis not temporarily slowed and been 2 metres ahead at the safety car line, he would have been within his rights to do what he did.
ah yes, but then he might have let Alonso through too ;) :p

AndyL

9th July 2010, 11:26

ah yes, but then he might have let Alonso through too ;) :p

Only if Alonso had been less than 2 metres behind!

AndyL

9th July 2010, 11:29

I don't understand this move at all. If everyone slows down to the estimated speed of the safety car, the field will never be able to close up behind it, right? So cars will remain spread out round the entire circuit - how will the marshals ever be able to get onto the track to clear debris? Presumably they are going to be asked to work on track while cars are passing. That can't be right.

jens

9th July 2010, 21:14

I don't understand this move at all. If everyone slows down to the estimated speed of the safety car, the field will never be able to close up behind it, right?

Precisely. Some clarifying aspects must have been omitted in the article to make it more clear. And I can't believe FIA meant it that way that the cars will never catch the SC. :p : Sounds quite a weird and strange change. They should try to simply send to safety car out in front of the leader, not into the middle of the pack. With modern technology they should be able to get the timing right. And secondly, if the SC is supposed to pick up the leader, why are they holding back others at all? Ferraris, etc, like Hamilton should have been let through immediately without significant distraction. And if the delta-time is 120% (surely Hamilton was lapping according to it after passing the SC), for how long was the SC holding up the Ferraris that they weren't able to even get even close to the 120% mark over a lap any more?

motetarip

10th July 2010, 01:09

So, IYO seeing the SC on the track is pretty much meaninless. "Yes there could be somebody smashed on the ground but let me see if I can turn that into my advantage". Sir, that's moraly wrong and shows no sportsmanship whatsever. (Something MS has been accused a million times of) If LH has to score points by having to use other people misfortune, I wish him and good luck. Mr. Hamilton convinced himself that cheating and lying is more rewarding than competing honestly. That's supported by the numerous reprimends he has received and the quite frequent rule revisions his constant misconduct has caused. Let me reassure you though, that's not how you win a world championship. At least not morally.
And I am done talking about this topic. The new rule clearly shows who had it all wrong.

If the situation on the track is that dangerous then the race should/would be red flagged. I think sportmanship in F1 is a case of what you can or can't get away with under the rules, not the moral code held by disagreeing parties.

Hawkmoon

10th July 2010, 04:09

and if he did not pump his brakes and continued, there would be no penalty and his "judgement would not be in question. right?

Yes. If he was a half second up the road he wouldn't have had to make the call.

The only reason this entire thing is being discussed, not just by fans on forums but by F1 itself is because of Hamilton's actions.

mstillhere

10th July 2010, 05:06

If the situation on the track is that dangerous then the race should/would be red flagged. I think sportmanship in F1 is a case of what you can or can't get away with under the rules, not the moral code held by disagreeing parties.

So if the SC is on the track it could be because they are tryng their new tires? What's confusing aboiut why is the SC on the track? I mean this junior high school stuff.
PS Does LH know the meaning a race red flagged? I am sure that he's "clueless".

motetarip

10th July 2010, 11:48

So if the SC is on the track it could be because they are tryng their new tires? What's confusing aboiut why is the SC on the track? I mean this junior high school stuff.
PS Does LH know the meaning a race red flagged? I am sure that he's "clueless".

Ah, Hammy hating.. As I've stated before in this forum I'm not the world's biggest Hamilton fan, but I honestly see nothing wrong with his behaviour at Valencia. He gambled and he lost, and took the penalty. Yes there was debris on the track but I've seen no evidence that he drove through it at race pace, scattering marshalls out of the way. IIRC Vettel wasn't picked up by the SC either, presumably he's not a sportsman either by your definition.