Goodbye Jacques, goodbye Juan, goodbye Michael...

[pino]

Unfortunatelly these 3 drivers are not longer part of today F1, so this is your last chance to say/post anything you want about them. This thread will stay here until Friday 16th, after that it will be moved into Nostalgia Forum, and no more discussions about them will be allowed in here. I go first...

Juan, you're a very spectacular driver and I've enjoyed every moment of your stay in F1, it's very sad no watching you anymore...Good Luck for your future!

Jacques, I've always liked you (probably because you're a Villeneuve) but to be honest, lately I've enjoyed your big mouth more than you driver skills :p :

Michael, I can't thank you enough for bringing and keeping Ferrari on top of F1 for so many years.I will miss you !

pino

[ioan]

What if MS will be an active part of the Ferrari F1 team? I suppose we'll be allowed to post about him like we do about any other Ferrari team member.
At least Juan is still competing.
So yep, bye bye Jacques! :p :

[pino]

ups I forgot to say, if you really want to criticize one of them, please do it in a "nice" way, let's not turn this into a fighting thread !

Thanks :)

[555-04Q2]

ups I forgot to say, if you really want to criticize one of them, please do it in a "nice" way, let's not turn this into a fighting thread !

Thanks :)

Party pooper :p :

[pino]

What if MS will be an active part of the Ferrari F1 team? I suppose we'll be allowed to post about him like we do about any other Ferrari team member.


When and if Michael will be part of Ferrari team, we can discuss him for his work, not for his past as F1 driver !

[jens]

I'm not going to criticize anyone, but I have never felt sad after someone has left F1. Everyone has to leave sooner or later, it's just about time. And often drivers, who are leaving, have had a dissapointing end of career (Alesi, Häkkinen, Herbert, Frentzen, Panis, Hill, etc, etc) and therefore one might think that it was also right time to leave. Michael has been a rare example and left F1 whilst being at the top, but in his case also signs of 'age' could be noticed at the end of the career.

And after all I have to be ironic. Several people want to see new generation in F1 and want "olds" (GF, RB, DC, JT, RS, even NH) to leave as quickly as possible. And at the same time people are nostalgic about other drivers, who have already left and made room for new generation. This is a vast contradiction. I highly doubt that those previously mentioned 5-6 guys will be missed after they have left.

[Ranger]

Schumi, you made the right choice. I'm sure everything that needs to be said has been said and will be said in the future, so cheers for pissing me off every monday morning. :p : :up:

JPM, you made the right choice. I will be paying more attention to NASCAR this year thanks to your involvement. Cheers for turning heads! :up:

JV, you made the right choice. Although, you probably made it a few years too late. I hope you do well at your next motorsport venture, because if you do as well as your last 5 F1 years then you will be like watching slow death.

So here's to the best. :up: :D

That is all.

[ioan]

When and if Michael will be part of Ferrari team, we can discuss him for his work, not for his past as F1 driver !

That's normal, I don't even see why the need to point that out! ;)

[PSfan]

Just for clarification:

If JV decided to go on another rant about current F1 drivers, managers, how the sport is run, are we not allowed to discuss what he has to say?

If the German GP decides to do something special to honour MS during the race weekend, do we only discuss that in the H&N forum?

If there is rumours about JPM being offered a seat at Torro Rosso again are we suppose to ignore them?

[sonic_roadhog]

Goodbye JV and thanks for the new music ;)

[raphael123]

I use to post on another forum before this, and am not a big fan of the strictness of keeping certain topics in certain forums. Some great discussions on F1 are not in the F1 part, but in the history forum, and it restricts access to it, as not everyone checks that forum as regularly (I know I don't!). Same with Chit Chat, I was hoping for a good discussion on the road tax, but it was moved to the transport forum, and be fair, how many people bother to read that? Not as many as the Chit Chat forum I'm sure!

I think all you really need is a F1 and Non-F1 section rather than all these sections. Or maybe an F1, Other motorsport, and non-f1. Having a seperate forum for as many on this forum results in people only seeing a few topics.

Anyway, sorry for that little rant. Wrong place to post it I guess? (see my point!!).

I will miss MS. He was a great driver to watch, though I don't respect him as a sportsman, because sporting was not a word many would use to describe him, he was without doubt one of the greatest drivers in F1.

JPM was exciting to watch, honest, and I can't get over how F1 has just let him go. What a waste! He could have been great to watch in 2008 with the new regulations! Our loss is Nascar's gain, as his last race there is showing!

And I like JV, even though people seem to dislike the guy. He's a big character in F1, and not boring like all the new PR orientated drivers coming into F1 today. Even Lewis Hamilton, a great exciting player on track so far, but one of the most boring bland people to watch being interviewed! I hope he learns to show his personality more as he gains experieince in the F1 world. And I loved Alonso's new outspoken personality in recent months, and I hope his switch to McLaren doesn't change that, like it did to JPM! It would be a travesty!

[pino]

Just for clarification:

If JV decided to go on another rant about current F1 drivers, managers, how the sport is run, are we not allowed to discuss what he has to say?

If the German GP decides to do something special to honour MS during the race weekend, do we only discuss that in the H&N forum?

If there is rumours about JPM being offered a seat at Torro Rosso again are we suppose to ignore them?

All this can be discussed in here, what cannot be discussed is them, as former F1 drivers. I hope I made my self clear ;)

[Dave B]

JPM: a great natural talent squandered because of a lack of application and an unwillingness to take F1 seriously.

JV: a decent talent squandered becuase you thought as a WDC the world owed you a living.

MS: flawed genius who re-wrote the history books and raised the benchmark for all who follow, but who will be remembered as much for the controversy as the championships.

They'll all be missed in their own way, but it's time to move on. Nothing to see here.....

[raphael123]

JPM: a great natural talent squandered because of a lack of application and an unwillingness to take F1 seriously.



Where do ppl get the impression JPM didn't apply himself properly to F1, or was unwilling to do so?

Head made a couple of comments in this debut season. But after that only positive noises came out from Williams, with both Head and Frank saying he was a true professional, on and off track, right till he left the team.

Ron Dennis went even further, and stated that after his injury in which he missed a couple of races, he's never seen a driver work harder physically and on the car side of things during his time in F1 - that includes many drivers like DC, Mika, Kimi, Prost, Senna etc! That was quite some comment. And he made this comment during only a couple of months before he sacked him when he found out he wasn't going to be in F1.

Just because he's laid back, a bit jokey, and outspoken, people seem to assume he doesn't care, or he lacks application as you say etc - that is completely untrue though. :)

[BeansBeansBeans]

Farewell JPM, JV and MS. You all brought a lot to the sport, but your time has passed. Onwards and upwards with the new generation.

[ioan]

Head made a couple of comments in this debut season. But after that only positive noises came out from Williams, with both Head and Frank saying he was a true professional, on and off track, right till he left the team.

Ron Dennis went even further, and stated that after his injury in which he missed a couple of races, he's never seen a driver work harder physically and on the car side of things during his time in F1 - that includes many drivers like DC, Mika, Kimi, Prost, Senna etc! That was quite some comment. And he made this comment during only a couple of months before he sacked him when he found out he wasn't going to be in F1.

Because Valve might still be holidaying in France I'll do it:

LINKs PLEASE!

[raphael123]

No links available.

If you subscribe to the F1Racing magazines, just check back to last year with a big interview with Ron Dennis and you can see his comments. I don't know of any site which publish the articles in the magazine though.

The Head and Williams interview may be harder to find, as they were in the 2004 editions magazine, but unless you chuck them you should be able to find the interviews somewhere.

Hope that helps (unless you don't read read those magazines :) )

[Bagwan]

"no more discussions will be allowed about them in here" .

Well now , doesn't that sound like the final word ?

I will not post here if I am not allowed to relate actions of today with the past .
I am happy to be "moderated" but I will not tolerate this kind of statement from a moderator .

I am sorry , Pino , but I cannot comply .
Your blanket statement is not acceptable to me .

[pino]

"no more discussions will be allowed about them in here" .

Well now , doesn't that sound like the final word ?

I will not post here if I am not allowed to relate actions of today with the past .
I am happy to be "moderated" but I will not tolerate this kind of statement from a moderator .

I am sorry , Pino , but I cannot comply .
Your blanket statement is not acceptable to me .

Bagwan, you can still talk about Jacques (as driver) as much as you want...in the Nostalgia Forum, not in here. Sorry

pino

[janneppi]

Bagwan
I'm guessing Mods want the never ending "but MS ram into JV which caused Montoya to kick JV in the head twenty years ago..." tirades to be discussed in the history section, since both these drivers and their actions are now F1 history. Quite franly, it's the right thing to do, the same bickering goes around in circles accomplishing nothing more than bans for idiots. :)

[Bagwan]

Bagwan, you can still talk about Jacques (as driver) as much as you want...in the Nostalgia Forum, not in here. Sorry

pino

Read my post , Pino .
I'm sorry , too .

[Roamy]

Well then
AMF to three great drivers.

OH AMF is abbreviated "Spanglish"

[98 roundeye]

All colorful, skilled and historic in F1 but it is time to move on and see what 2007 brings.

98 roundeye

[ioan]

"no more discussions will be allowed about them in here" .

Well now , doesn't that sound like the final word ?

I will not post here if I am not allowed to relate actions of today with the past .
I am happy to be "moderated" but I will not tolerate this kind of statement from a moderator .

I am sorry , Pino , but I cannot comply .
Your blanket statement is not acceptable to me .

I fully agree with Bagwan.

Statements like:
"no more discussions will be allowed about them in here"
do resemble dictatorship more than moderating.

No offense, Pino, but how will you police a thread where we will talk about how much Felipe learned about Michael and we will give examples from Michael's career?

[F1boat]

I will miss Michael and Montoya a lot.
For me Michael is the greatest driver in F1 ever. I feel privileged that I have watched this amazing driver winning race after race, title after title. When I was teen, I hated Michael, but in recent years I became to admire and respect him and in the end I finalyy understood what great ddriver he is. I will miss him. A lot. Nothing will be the same.
I will also miss Montoya, although I am very excited to see him racing stock cars. He was terrific and very entertaining driver.
Without them, F1 will not be the same. But new drivers will rise and it'll be cool.

[janneppi]

No offense, Pino, but how will you police a thread where we will talk about how much Felipe learned about Michael and we will give examples from Michael's career?
I doubt passing comments will be deleted, just that for example if Massa hit's the wall at Monaco during qually and there is a comparison to MS and his rather colourful history at Rascasse( ;) ) shouldn't become the the focus point of discussion, as it so often has done.

[Viktory]

Jaqcues Villneueve: hmm, I don't have anything against him as long as he keeps his mouth closed :)

Juan Pablo Montoya: A shame that he left F1, I enjoyed his personality and was always exciting to watch.

Michael Schumacher: Greatest driver there ever was and ever will be. Thanks for all the great memories. Will be missed on track, I hope he continues working for Ferrari (which looks to be the case).

[rlenis]

Mark Blundell: (on Juan-Pablo Montoya‘s final season in F1) Juan Pablo Montoya is, for me, one of the best drivers' behind the wheel in terms of car control. I was left frustrated though because I am a big supporter of him in terms of his abilities, but he never quite gave us 100 per cent. I think in the end that was his downfall. We saw 95 per cent of him, but the last 5 per cent is what is required to compete at the very, very top of F1. I don't think we ever saw that from him and it is a crying shame, because I think he had a lot, lot more to offer.
Earlier on his career he also said Montoya he had the talent to become the next Shumacher or Senna, He was Shumi’s teammate and competed against Montoya in CART.

“The last stars I saw in F1 were (Ayrton) Senna and, even if he won only one world championship, Jacques Villeneuve. If we want, we could also add (Juan Pablo) Montoya. Now, instead, we have only champions.”
Flavio Briatore,

Nick Fry recently said that Montoya would have developed different if he had raced from Honda. Implying he never fulfill his true potential with Mclaren.

David HOBBS: Well, people are pretty fickle. They can change allegiances pretty quickly when they have to. Juan Pablo Montoya will be very missed in Formula One, and I don’t think he deserved the rap he got because by and large he didn’t bond very well with McLaren and the car but at Williams in 2002 he had like eight straight poles and he won like six or seven races. The kid is quick. I think he’s more suited to Formula One than he is to NASCAR, myself, but time will tell. He might find NASCAR a lot more difficult that he thinks it’s going to be.

Murray Walker. Montoya is a future superstar. He still has things to learn, he’s still not a complete driver. I’d like to see Jensen Button win because he’s a nice bloke and because he’s an Englishman and because he’s done extremely well to get where he is”

Ron Dennis "The accident that hurt his shoulder was very counter-productive," Dennis told reporters at Shanghai. "It took that year out of play and created some tensions, but not any that anyone created other than the circumstances that existed as a result of it."

Dennis went on to praise Montoya as a very quick driver adding that, "he brought more color to the team and to the sport."

"He's a great talent and we're sad to see him go," Frank Williams

"Juan Pablo has everything a Formula One world champion requires" said double world champion Emerson Fittipaldi.

"Juan Pablo is gifted with superb car control and raw natural talent, but he has to learn that you can't do everything with talent alone," added Berger. "He's got to develop a cooler, more analytical attitude so that he can help improve his car's performance throughout a Grand Prix weekend.” Gerhard Berger

"Interlagos 2001, the greatest overtaking move of the last 10 years"- Peter Windsor

"There is not enough room to pass a sheet of paper between cars with Montoya's overtakings" Mika Hakkinen.

"Juan Pablo overtakes when the opportunity is invisible to the others" Frank Williams

I like this one..
Allesandro Zanardi:
"when I think of Stewart I think of a driver that was simply happy with his three championships. Of course that’s a lot, but...” Zanardi chooses his words carefully, so as to not be unfair in his criticism: “These guys – Lauda, Schumacher... I’ve never seen them win a race spectacularly!

..That’s why I admire Montoya. Of course he’s crazy, of course right now he’s having some troubles, but he’s one of the few that even in this supertechnological F1 is capable of every now and then come up with something unexpected. Some F1 people say, for instance, that Montoya can drive aggressively on cold tires, try overtaking moves on the outside and so on, because of his U.S. experience with all the yellow flag restarts. ..To me, that’s BS. The reality is, people like him, like Greg Moore was, they just enjoy doing this, they enjoy trying when everybody’s saying it’s not possible – and those are the moments which become memorable.

“In racing, you can win a title alternating wins with good results, but emotionally I’m on the side of the ones who even when they have a second-place finish in the pocket, they put all their chips back on the table to try and go for the win.”


Montoya: F1 will miss your personality and racing... Best of luck in NASCAR.

[revmeister]

"no more discussions will be allowed about them in here" .

Well now , doesn't that sound like the final word ?

I will not post here if I am not allowed to relate actions of today with the past .
I am happy to be "moderated" but I will not tolerate this kind of statement from a moderator .

I am sorry , Pino , but I cannot comply .
Your blanket statement is not acceptable to me .

Bag look at this way, it is plainly embarrassing when Jacques and Juan Pablo generate far more discussion than the current drivers in the sport. Kimi, Jensen need a chance too you know.

It's going to get quiet around here....here...here..here.

[race aficionado]

. . . . . . .

Montoya: F1 will miss your personality and racing... Best of luck in NASCAR.



thanks for all those quotes rlenis. :)

it was a fun read.

:s mokin:

[ArrowsFA1]

A bit of common sense here guys :cool: Montoya, Villeneuve and Schumacher (M) are ex-F1 drivers.

This is the forum to discuss current F1 events/drivers/races etc etc.

These three might sneak into a discussion about current F1 (that does happen with other ex-F1 drivers from time to time) but this is not the place to specifically discuss their F1 careers. History and Nostalgia (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=111) is the place for that.

For Montoya's current career we have the fine NASCAR (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=96) forum. For Villeneuve there is (for now) the GT Racing and Le Mans (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=97) forum, maybe NASCAR (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=96) next year, and for his music I'd suggest Chit Chat (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=104) :D

[Big Ben]

i have to say that even i am going to miss schu. as i ve said before, competing against him and the reds was pretty much like fighting the evil and winning brought so much satisfaction.

about JPM... as a Mclaren fan i have to say i'm glad he's gone.

JV? i didn't really care what he was doing on the track but i enjoy reading his interviews.... and that's something he can still do from where he is.

[rlenis]

NP race aficionado..

The way I see it is that NASCAR got what they wanted with Montoya's crossover. You'll be amazed to find out that Montoya's win this past Sunday is being discussed all over the internet in the major Autosports/Formula one Forums. You now have F1 fans posting on NASCAR threads (SpeedTV) and people discussing the opportunity to bring ovals into F1 as a result from watching Montoya's races in NASCAR (Atlas).
This was huge for Motorsports, I'll tell you that much.

Where do ppl get the impression JPM didn't apply himself properly to F1, or was unwilling to do so?

Probably from the fact that, after he left Williams, he lost 7 kilos in weight.

Which meant that, for atleast 4 seasons at Williams, he was overweight. Which is not applying yourself properly to the job.

I believe Sir Frank wrote a letter to Juan at the start of 2002 asking for a more focused approach. Not bothering to lose weight for another three seasons is not being more focused.

Juan also lost interest in Mclaren and F1 in general. His reasons were fair, but hardly the product of somebody willing to apply himself.

and for his music I'd suggest Chit Chat

Having heard his music, wouldn't Sh*t Chat be better?

[Ian McC]

Well I guess it maybe quite quiet on here from now on :D

[Bagwan]

These three might sneak into a discussion about current F1 (that does happen with other ex-F1 drivers from time to time) but this is not the place to specifically discuss their F1 careers.


Thank you , Arrows , for clearing that up .
When I suggested as much to Pino , I was immediately rebuffed .

You know , it is easily understood by the vast majority , that JPM , JV , and MS are ex-drivers in F1 .
One would hope that the drivers currently running will give us something to debate this coming year , and , as I have yet to see a year in F1 entirely free from controversy , imagined or otherwise , to talk about , I fail to see the point of telling us in a thread that they are gone .

However , that said , it did inspire Rienis to put up some cool quotes , so , all in all , not a total waste .

[race aficionado]

Hey Baggs.

Recognize this?


*note: this thread does allow us to mention JV for the time being.

its the 908 HDi FAP which Jacques will drive during the forthcoming Le Mans race.

At least that's what the web sites say.
http://www.f1technical.net/news/5055

Is this so?

[ArrowsFA1]

Thank you , Arrows , for clearing that up .
When I suggested as much to Pino , I was immediately rebuffed .
Just to be clear, my post was my own view on the subject, but the sentiment is the same.

JPM, JV & MS have been central figures here for a long time but it's time to move on. Drivers come and go. Given their...how shall I say :p ...personalities, these three are likely to linger longer than most somewhere around here.

But, there will be 20 drivers on the grid in Australia who are likely to provide us with as much food for thought, and discussion, in the coming weeks, months and years.

The F1 forum belongs to them.

[pino]

Thank you , Arrows , for clearing that up .
When I suggested as much to Pino , I was immediately rebuffed .



Sorry Bagwan but I tought you still wanted to talk JV career in here, I should 've read your post more carefully. What I meant is exactly what Arrows posted :)





No offense, Pino, but how will you police a thread where we will talk about how much Felipe learned about Michael and we will give examples from Michael's career?

That's depends on how much you will talk about Michael, we all must remember that he's history now ;)

[ioan]

But, there will be 20 drivers on the grid in Australia...

Actually 22 , but how can I dare to contradict a moderator? :p :

[ioan]

That's depends on how much you will talk about Michael, we all must remember that he's history now ;)

You might say that about Senna, but not about Michael.

[raphael123]

Probably from the fact that, after he left Williams, he lost 7 kilos in weight.

Which meant that, for atleast 4 seasons at Williams, he was overweight. Which is not applying yourself properly to the job.

I believe Sir Frank wrote a letter to Juan at the start of 2002 asking for a more focused approach. Not bothering to lose weight for another three seasons is not being more focused.

Juan also lost interest in Mclaren and F1 in general. His reasons were fair, but hardly the product of somebody willing to apply himself.

Frank Williams, Patrick Head, and Ron Dennis disagree with you.

Juan lost interest in F1 your right. But while he was in F1 to say he wasn't willing to apply himself is completely untrue.

I'll believe the word of his 3 former employer's over a forum member :)

PS: Great quotes from rlennis on Montoya - Superb!

[ArrowsFA1]

Actually 22 , but how can I dare to contradict a moderator? :p :
You just did :p : and you're spot on :s mokin:

[harsha]

this place is sure gonna be quiet without the pro and anti schumi,JV,JPM camps about

[Bagwan]

Hey Baggs.

Recognize this?


*note: this thread does allow us to mention JV for the time being.

its the 908 HDi FAP which Jacques will drive during the forthcoming Le Mans race.

At least that's what the web sites say.
http://www.f1technical.net/news/5055

Is this so?

Yeah , baby , let's go !
That thing looks like a spaceship .

Whadaya think , should he bring it to NASCAR ? That thing could slip right underneath the COT .

[Bagwan]

[quote="pino"]Sorry Bagwan but I tought you still wanted to talk JV career in here, I should 've read your post more carefully. What I meant is exactly what Arrows posted :) [quote]

Pino , it's in my character that when someone builds a brick wall in front of me , I will climb it . This time , I got a chance to change the minds of the bricklayers .

I must say that I didn't like the tone of the thread from the outset , but I do like the fact that we could clear the air on the subject from the start . I appreciate that you guys work hard to keep this place sane .

Thanks .

[fly_ac]

To Jacques - Bye, and don't sing to much, thanks in advance.... :erm:
To Juan Pablo - You raced well when your mind was with you at the races, maybe the change will suit you, good luck. :\
To Michael - Good luck for whatever you pursue in the future, thanks for your contribution to F1, you had a big impact on the sport. :bigcry: ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

To Jacques - Bye, and don't sing to much, thanks in advance.... :erm:
Ahhh-haa, JV has a buyer for his music. Did you dislike it so much that you took it back for a refund? ;)

[fly_ac]

Ahhh-haa, JV has a buyer for his music. Did you dislike it so much that you took it back for a refund? ;)

EEEEeeeerrrr Nope, not in my lifetime will I do such a sin. :mad: :D

Heard some on a friends cellphone, needless to say we are not friends for the time being. :cheese:

[Dzeidzei]

Juan lost interest in F1 your right.

Lost interest? As in "he could still have driven in a top team but didnt want to anymore"?

LOL. He´s clearly at home in Nascar, but his bold (read stupid) moves would never pay off in F1. And if its still unclear: he was kicked out by a faster teammate. He never recovered mentally for being slower, which he certainly wasnt used to earlier in his career.

[rlenis]

explain kicked out? he was not offered any top seats? does that translate to kicked out of F1. As far as I remember he announce after the USGP that he was off to NASCAR. Has it ever occurred to you that he didn't want to turn out to be another DC and instead decided to go for a new challenge and be close to his family in America.

[Dzeidzei]

explain kicked out? he was not offered any top seats? does that translate to kicked out of F1. As far as I remember he announce after the USGP that he was off to NASCAR. Has it ever occurred to you that he didn't want to turn out to be another DC and instead decided to go for a new challenge and be close to his family in America.

This has been talked about too much in this forum, so I wont go in there. I only reacted to the idea of JPM "losing his interest". If he had been offered a top drive, Im sure there would have been very much interest. But the top teams rated him and obviously not high enough.

[rlenis]

That is correct. He said he would have stayed if he was offered a Renault of Ferrari seat but he didn't so he lost interest in running in a team fighting for 4th and 5th place. He lost interest being in the situation he was in so he decided to try something else.

Why are you saying BS that he was kicked out of F1 when you know he was the one who made the call first to quit instead of running for a mid-pack team?

[F1boat]

That is correct. He said he would have stayed if he was offered a Renault of Ferrari seat but he didn't so he lost interest in running in a team fighting for 4th and 5th place. He lost interest being in the situation he was in so he decided to try something else.

Why are you saying BS that he was kicked out of F1 when you know he was the one who made the call first to quit instead of running for a mid-pack team?

Who would have want him? Eh?

[ArrowsFA1]

JPM recognised he was unlikely to get into a position where he could win a WDC, and there are probably few who would argue with that. They'll have different reasons (most of which have been discussed and argued over here at some point :p ) why, but most importantly JPM recognised the reality and did something about it.

He's won races pretty much everywhere he's gone, and proved himself in Europe and America. He's now proving himself once again, this time in NASCAR. That takes talent and ability.

[ioan]

He's now proving himself once again, this time in NASCAR. That takes talent and ability.

The only thing it really takes are bumpers.

Just kidding! :p :

[Dzeidzei]

That is correct. He said he would have stayed if he was offered a Renault of Ferrari seat but he didn't so he lost interest in running in a team fighting for 4th and 5th place. He lost interest being in the situation he was in so he decided to try something else.

Why are you saying BS that he was kicked out of F1 when you know he was the one who made the call first to quit instead of running for a mid-pack team?

Well, I didnt mean kicked out as in "being sacked". I meant the very same way you seem to think. He didnt proove to be quick enough and obviously wasnt interested in any other drives on the grid, so in that sense he was kicked out. I totally understand his reaction, he is not the kind of guy who would settle for a 2nd class career. He chose to leave and not stick around.

In a way thats more admirable. But it doesnt change the fact that JPM must feel his F1 career being a disappointment. At the end at least.

[rlenis]

Well, I didnt mean kicked out as in "being sacked". I meant the very same way you seem to think. He didnt proove to be quick enough and obviously wasnt interested in any other drives on the grid, so in that sense he was kicked out. I totally understand his reaction, he is not the kind of guy who would settle for a 2nd class career. He chose to leave and not stick around.

In a way thats more admirable. But it doesnt change the fact that JPM must feel his F1 career being a disappointment. At the end at least.


I don't think so, perhaps if his teammates had collected WDC in the process, maybe. But they didn't. The only thing he proved was that he was not as quick as Kimi, that is all. But then again are there many drivers out there who are?

[race aficionado]

got this from another forum member (fetzervalve) and now that we are mentioning Juan in this thread, here is some info that I was even not privy of:

________________
Here are the deets: (looks like 11 Championships and a few other gems in the crown)

1981-1984: Karting Colombian National Champion
1985: National Junior Kart Championship: 2nd
1986-1987: Komet Category: National Champion
1988: Komet Category: 2nd in National Championship
1989: Komet Category: champion
1990: Kart Junior World Championship
1991: Kart Junior World Championship
1992: Colombian Formula Renault: 8 races, 4 wins, 5 poles
1993: GTI National Championship Tournament: 8 races, 7 wins, 7 poles
1994: Sudan 125 karting: champion
Barber Saab series: 3rd, 2 wins, 2 poles
Mexican 'N' series: 5 races, 3 wins, 4 poles
1995: Formula Vauxhall, England: 3rd (Paul Stewart Racing)
Bogotá Six Hours: class winner
1996: F3, England: 5th, 2 wins, 1 pole (Fortec)
Marlboro Masters: 4th
Macau GP: ret
ITC: 16th, 1 race (Mercedes-Benz)
Bogotá Six Hours: winner
1997: F3000: 2nd, 37.5 points, 3 wins (RSM Marko)
1998: F3000: 1st, 65 points, 4 wins, 2 poles (Super Nova)
1999: CART: 1st & rookie of the year, 212 points, 7 wins, 7 poles (Ganassi)
2000: CART: 9th, 126 points, 3 wins, 7 poles (Ganassi)
IRL: raced and won the Indy 500 (Ganassi)
2001: Formula 1: 6th, 31 points, 1 win, 3 poles (Williams)
2002: Formula 1: 3rd, 50 points, 0 wins, 7 poles (Williams)
2003: Formula 1: 3rd, 82 points, 2 wins, 1 pole (Williams)
2004: Formula 1: 5th, 58 points, 1 win, 0 poles (Williams)
2005: Formula 1: 4th, 60 points, 3 wins, 2 poles (McLaren)
2006: Formula 1: 8th, 26 points, 0 wins, 0 poles (McLaren)
2007: Rolex 24 at Daytona Daytona Prototype class winner and overall winner
___________

and the list will continue . . . . . :s mokin:

[Big Ben]

No offense, Pino, but how will you police a thread where we will talk about how much Felipe learned about Michael and we will give examples from Michael's career?

yeah... get real Pino. dreams are like rainbows, only fools chase them. How do you plan stopping Ioan talking about MS????

let him explain how Massa won because MS taught him how to do it, or how any ferrari win from now on will carry somehow MS' great contribution, or how Alons won only because MS retired and so on...

This should obvious by now to everyone. I got it finally.

[Garry Walker]

Schumacher was the best driver every without a doubt. F1 will miss him, I will miss him.

Villeneuve was an interesting character, very bitter at times but fun to have around. I think BMW was a bit unfair to him.

montoya - im very glad he isnt in f1 anymore.

[VresiBerba]

Actually 22 , but how can I dare to contradict a moderator? :p :

Actually, it can be everything from between 18-22 depending on the customer car furore. Or actually to be precice, it can be everything between 1 and 22 :p

[Dave B]

Bernie's contract with the race organisers is that there'll be at least 16 cars on the grid. Of course, whether they all start is a different question (see Indy '05 :s )

[jonny hurlock]

Micheal you was the best in f1 history, f1 will miss you

JV good luck for le mans and your music career

JPM good luck in Nascar- I hope its not the last time in f1

JH

[Schnell]

Schumacher was the best driver every without a doubt. F1 will miss him, I will miss him.

Villeneuve was an interesting character, very bitter at times but fun to have around. I think BMW was a bit unfair to him.

montoya - im very glad he isnt in f1 anymore.

Oh get over it! I miss Jim Clark! Life goes on...wish more 'old' drivers would push off...so many excellent young guys waiting in the wings for their chance.
These teams that play it safe rehiring the 'has beens' deprive us, and potential new talent.

[rickos]

Adios, amigos ... long live the 3 amigos.

:s mokin:

[Dave B]

Oh get over it! I miss Jim Clark! Life goes on...wish more 'old' drivers would push off...so many excellent young guys waiting in the wings for their chance.
These teams that play it safe rehiring the 'has beens' deprive us, and potential new talent.
Calm down dear :p One of the best "new talents" now has a race seat, not before time, and hopefully good things will follow ;)

[EuroTroll]

Yes, good-bye to all three.

I won't miss any of them, it has to be said. :)

[BeansBeansBeans]

Oh get over it! I miss Jim Clark! Life goes on...wish more 'old' drivers would push off...so many excellent young guys waiting in the wings for their chance.
These teams that play it safe rehiring the 'has beens' deprive us, and potential new talent.

Couldn't agree more. Onwards and upwards.

[Roamy]

interesting - what determines too old???
Schm was still up there as was JV and JPM.
I think the problem with f1 is not enough seats vs too old of drivers.
The kids should be given the opportunity to knock them off. Now with
the exception of Blockhead (DC) it is just kid against moderates (no WDC's )

[ClarkFan]

Oh get over it! I miss Jim Clark! Life goes on...wish more 'old' drivers would push off...so many excellent young guys waiting in the wings for their chance.
These teams that play it safe rehiring the 'has beens' deprive us, and potential new talent.

That is the problem, isn't it? Even when looking at an obvious talent like Hamilton, Ron Dennis was hunting for an old hag to fill the seat.

With the lower level of physical danger and the money, drivers have tended to hang on well past when there was any reason. Jackie Stewart bowed out after 9 years in F1 because he didn't want to die in a race car. Drivers like JV have lacked that cold, hard element influencing their decisions. JV last actually accomplished something in 1997, and spent longer trudging in mediocrity than Stewart's whole career. Likewise, drivers like Coulthard, Trulli and Ralf Schumacher seem to be hanging on for the pension checks, as any realistic shot at being champion has passed.

ClarkFan

P.S. I miss Jim Clark, too....... :(

[Roamy]

my understanding is that Fangio raced into his 50's. I feel the determining factor is not when you become cautious but when your balls recede.

[93VTEC]

All three will be missed, but MS the least. He was boring. JV and JPM had fire and were entertaining on and off the track. MS was right down boring.....

On to the new and upcoming drivers

[ioan]

All three will be missed, but MS the least. He was boring. JV and JPM had fire and were entertaining on and off the track. MS was right down boring.....

On to the new and upcoming drivers

I did hear plenty of things about MS from the haters, but boring is the lamest one you came up with!

[jens]

Less than a week to go and I decided to put another comment here. As I said I don't miss anyone (even if Trulli retires one day for good, I wouldn't take it dramatically) - time goes by and everything has to change - it's pleasure to see new guys trying to prove themselves. But I also think much of experienced drivers, who haven't given up and are still trying...

M. Schumacher - There has been so much discussion about him that I even don't bother myself to write and discuss about him. :p : He already looks like 'history'. I remember 1999, when he was injured - then I really felt that something important was missing from Grand Prix racing, but I don't feel that at the moment. I don't like making driver comparisons from different eras, so I say just that he is among the greatest of all times. I think it's time to stop quarrels about him whether he was cheater or not or whatever. Senna is gone and we all (or most of us) admire him for what he has given for the sport. In Michael's case let's also shake hands and make peace - you like him or not, but in some way he has been memorable to all of you.

Villeneuve - Although I don't like his personality, I usually supported him. Maybe there was/is something to do with the fact that he is a Canadian - nation, who has sent so few participators to F1. I'm afraid that after Jacques we might not see another Canadian for some ten years in F1. When I heard in 1997 that he had won the title ahead of Michael, I didn't make a big problem of that - "Well, happens," was a reaction. After that it was sad to see a champion and a good driver struggling that much. I was especially sad in 1999, when he was retiring endlessly and often from point positions. I have probably never cheered so much for him than in 1999. For me BAR/Honda team is/was also an interesting phenomenon that I usually didn't support the team (especially when Jordan had also the same engines - in that battle I was clearly cheering for the yellows :p : ), but I have supported their drivers except "bulldozer" Zonta.

Montoya - Another guy with 'doubtful' personality, but I have to admit that I liked him more in Williams than in McLaren. He suited better in Williams, he simply looked better there. I remember my thought from 2002: "He as a driver seems to be worth a driver's title, but alas he would start talking too much after that..." Or something like that. But in McLaren it seems that he got a bit frustrated by the fact that he couldn't fight with Kimi in the points rankings, which led into making driver errors.

[EuroTroll]

I did hear plenty of things about MS from the haters, but boring is the lamest one you came up with!

Here's another one you might not have heard: he was fat! :devil:

(He just hid it very well.)

:p :

[ioan]

Here's another one you might not have heard: he was fat! :devil:

(He just hid it very well.)

:p :

Depends on the point of view! :D

[Beth]

i loved all three of them, and especially JV he was my first "favourite" driver, i didn't like JPM in the beginning, but he wore me down and i have missed him since the day he left Williams, and schuey, well of course i will miss him, i loved everything about him! Thanks to all three for the great memories :)

[ioan]

History and Nostalgia (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=111) is available to everyone. If you'd like to continue discussing these drivers, among many other aspects of F1, then you can do so. If you decide not to visit the History and Nostalgia (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=111) forum then that's entirely your choice.

No need to post a link, I know where it is and I already posted there before. My point is that we had threads about AS and MH in here before when they were no more in F1, but this year we get the mod's message that the last 3 who departed are to be discussed just in the History forum and that we should look forward to the extraordinary new additions we get this year.
Why is that? Are you people scared you can't handle a thread about them anymore, so we relegate them to the part of the forum where there is little chance that people will ever read the threads? At least this was the impression I got after the famous thread started.

[Mark]

No need to post a link, I know where it is and I already posted there before. My point is that we had threads about AS and MH in here before when they were no more in F1, but this year we get the mod's message that the last 3 who departed are to be discussed just in the History forum and that we should look forward to the extraordinary new additions we get this year.
Why is that? Are you people scared you can't handle a thread about them anymore, so we relegate them to the part of the forum where there is little chance that people will ever read the threads? At least this was the impression I got after the famous thread started.

No, it's simply because this forum is for discussing whats happing in Formula 1 NOW and the H&N is for what happened in the past.

It's not the mods decision that MS should retire or JPM leave F1, but that they have done.

[ioan]

No, it's simply because this forum is for discussing whats happing in Formula 1 NOW and the H&N is for what happened in the past.

It's not the mods decision that MS should retire or JPM leave F1, but that they have done.

Let's not turn and twist it around trying to hide what we don't like.

[Mark]

I'm not quite sure what you mean there. I fail to see how my post could have been any more clear.

(I've started a new thread to avoid hijacking an existing one with meta discussion)

[ioan]

And by the way, the mod that started this thread is kindly requested to put his name as starter because I own the first post in another thread! Please own up to your creation.

[Mark]

Eh? The forum software puts the first post name as the thread starter. And that's it. I've already mentioned it was me who created the thread.

[ioan]

Eh? The forum software puts the first post name as the thread starter. And that's it. I've already mentioned it was me who created the thread.

I thought about that being the cause, but I've started to write my post before your's was up.

[janneppi]

Ioan, I honestly can't see why it's such a big issue to discuss past driver issues in the history section, like ArrowsFA1 or Pino said earlier, if they do something relevant to current F1, it's ok to bring it up here, but what point is there to continue the same old arguments about who did what and why in F1 section?
I think it was you who said you don't like it because there aren't many visitors there, i think if it's interesting enough, people will post there. And MS, JPM and JV topics certainly should make it more interesting. :)
I won't visit there much because i don't care that much what happened last year, let alone in the nineties.

[Firstgear]

I have to say that I agree with the mods on this. Correct me if I'm wrong here mods, but I don't think the intention is to stop all mention or reference to these three drivers, or perhaps casual comparisons of them to current drivers. The intent as I see it is not to have threads started specifically about them, or lengthy discussions about them. If MS actually does something in his new role in Ferrari, then I think that should be up for discussion here, but leave the driving/cheating.....crap out of it. As far as F1 "drivers", these three ARE history - so discuss that in the history forum.

[ioan]

Ioan, I honestly can't see why it's such a big issue to discuss past driver issues in the history section, like ArrowsFA1 or Pino said earlier, if they do something relevant to current F1, it's ok to bring it up here, but what point is there to continue the same old arguments about who did what and why in F1 section?
I think it was you who said you don't like it because there aren't many visitors there, i think if it's interesting enough, people will post there. And MS, JPM and JV topics certainly should make it more interesting. :)
I won't visit there much because i don't care that much what happened last year, let alone in the nineties.

The moment and the way things happened made things a it difficult I would say.
It's like when they changed the points system back in 2003 and now they want to make it somewhat like before.

[tinchote]

My only wonder is if the mods will be strict with this, or if it only applies to these three drivers and not to other topics. In recent times we had threads like Start racing at 3 years old (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115557), Alonso's Jaguar F1 test (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115555), F1 idiots (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115333), The great overtakes (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115470), which clearly don't belong to current F1, and I don't think the starters were told to post in the H&N forum.

A statement with a clear criterion will be nice.

Personally, I don't see a problem with the threads that have been posted. But if the mods want a full change, please make the change complete.

[Bagwan]

My first thought on that thread stating that those 3 were history was that it was rather theatening to a few of us here , who get into long discussions over them regularly .
They have all incited some very heated debate over the years , and the moderators were kept busy .
It was the proliferation of JV threads that inspired "the only" rulings , when it became a scolding offense to start a new thread about Jacques , even though the debates became almost impossible with so many points in one spot being discussed .

I confess that I don't really know how this whole forum works from a technical standpoint , and perhaps it does make things easier to administrate , but I don't have a problem with any of the threads that Tin mentioned being on the main page . All those threads have had reference to today's F1 .


In fact , I rarely see any thread that doesn't reference the past in some way , to help us put the present into perspective .

That thread saying good bye might have been a great relief for Pino and our moderator crew , but I for one , found it very distasteful .
I found it pointed and blunt .


The issue was touched on in the thread though , and the position was softened to some degree .

In the end , I feel that the thread was a mistake , as there is nothing to worry about in regards to this issue .
We will relate the present to the past as we have always done , and nothing will change .

And , now and again it will get ugly , as it always has .

[pino]

I have to say that I agree with the mods on this. Correct me if I'm wrong here mods, but I don't think the intention is to stop all mention or reference to these three drivers, or perhaps casual comparisons of them to current drivers. The intent as I see it is not to have threads started specifically about them, or lengthy discussions about them. If MS actually does something in his new role in Ferrari, then I think that should be up for discussion here, but leave the driving/cheating.....crap out of it. As far as F1 "drivers", these three ARE history - so discuss that in the history forum.

That's exactly what ArrowsFA1 and myself have tried to tell everyone, unfortunatelly someone still don't want to understand that :(



My only wonder is if the mods will be strict with this, or if it only applies to these three drivers and not to other topics. In recent times we had threads like Start racing at 3 years old (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115557), Alonso's Jaguar F1 test (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115555), F1 idiots (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115333), The great overtakes (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115470), which clearly don't belong to current F1, and I don't think the starters were told to post in the H&N forum.

A statement with a clear criterion will be nice.

Personally, I don't see a problem with the threads that have been posted. But if the mods want a full change, please make the change complete.

tincho, one more day and those threads who have nothing to do with today F1 will be moved to Nostalgia or closed.




That thread saying good bye might have been a great relief for Pino and our moderator crew , but I for one , found it very distasteful .
I found it pointed and blunt .



Bagwan, for different reasons I've always loved and supported both JV, JPM, and MS and believe me their exit from today F1 still makes me feel very sad, but life and F1 continues and it's time to move on, and give place and attention to others F1 drivers. That's why we have a sub-forum called History&Nostalgia...go there and talk about your fave driver's career as much as you like. One more thing, this is a decision that Andrea, ArrowsFA1 and myself took it long time ago, and we are not going to change it. Sorry...

pino

[harsha]

shouldn't michael schumacher's number one thread by Ioan also be moved there :?:

[ArrowsFA1]

This has all been discussed in another thread where we said:


This thread will stay here until Friday 16th, after that it will be moved into Nostalgia Forum...

[ioan]

shouldn't michael schumacher's number one thread by Ioan also be moved there :?:

It seems that my thread touched a sensible spot for some people around here.

[harsha]

It seems that my thread touched a sensible spot for some people around here.

i wouldn't put it that way,

just mentioned the rules as put forward by the mods

[ioan]

i wouldn't put it that way,

just mentioned the rules as put forward by the mods

Allow me not to believe you! ;)

[harsha]

it's your belief.... ;)

[janneppi]

ioan, surely you can see how the MS number 1 thread is exactly the kind of thread meant for the histolgia section?

[tinchote]

tincho, one more day and those threads who have nothing to do with today F1 will be moved to Nostalgia or closed.


That was not my intention, but you are the bosses :)

[ioan]

ioan, surely you can see how the MS number 1 thread is exactly the kind of thread meant for the histolgia section?

The quote I posted was a very actual one, but when some come up with Austria 2002 no matter what the thread is about I tend to agree with you and the mods.

[ioan]

So since starting with tomorrow we can't discuss about them as drivers I'll take the last opportunity to say thanks to JV, JPM and MS for all the quality racing they performed keeping us on the edge of the chairs and of heart attacks!

Thanks guys! :up:

PS: Also I wish them all luck in the future, in racing and life generally!

[Dave B]

What's all the big fuss about anyway? It's not like you need a special password or a masonic handshake to access the H&N forum.

And with the racing starting anytime soon, threads about Schuey, Jacques and the rest would be lost in the fray if they stayed in the "main" forum.

[ArrowsFA1]

So since starting with tomorrow we can't discuss about them as drivers...
No. No. No. No. No. http://emcsmileys.com/s/frustrated1.gif That is not being, and never has been, said :crazy: http://emcsmileys.com/s/faint.gif

[PSfan]

That's exactly what ArrowsFA1 and myself have tried to tell everyone, unfortunatelly someone still don't want to understand that :(


Well then, doesn't that sound like status quo? the likely hood of someone starting a thread to discuss a particular incidents like the 97 JV vs MS for example is highly unlikely, and if the discussion turns to something that isn't current then the thread would already be off-topic. And for that matter take ioan's #1 contract thread is somewhat relevant to F1 today because is mainly discusses Ferrari policy.



tincho, one more day and those threads who have nothing to do with today F1 will be moved to Nostalgia or closed.

If your gonna take a hard line stance on this kind of issue, I expect you to also take a similar stance on all the happy birthday threads that pop up. As far as I'm aware, we don't have any current F1 drivers posting on this board.

[race aficionado]

Come on guys, let's give it a rest.

I see it mostly as ioan having MS withdrawal symptoms - thankfully I have Juan Pablo in Nascar so I can't relate to ioan's pain . . . .

but the fact remains that we are here to post and have fun and to obey, yeah, that's it, obey the suggestions of our moderators. Alright, we can throw a hiss once but then just let it go. A new season is starting where current F1 topics are discussed on this F1 forum and there is another forum, and it has been there for a loooong time to discuss the old retired geezers or drivers that were once part of that elite F1 group.

And as for birthdays. I'm sorry I missed your birthday PSfan ;)

but seriously, birthday threads are unique and just serve the purpose to remind us all that we care about other members and we want to congratulate them - or just bug them because they are getting so old that they should move to the H&N form.

OK then, rant over and ready, get set and we are almost a go for this great motor-sport weekend.

peace.
:s mokin:

[Bagwan]

No. No. No. No. No. http://emcsmileys.com/s/frustrated1.gif That is not being, and never has been, said :crazy: http://emcsmileys.com/s/faint.gif

"No more discussions about them will be allowed in here" .-Pino

That seems pretty straight forward to me , and seems to be the crux of the issue .

Counting this as Ioan or anybody else having "withdrawal symptoms" is completely missing the point .


If MS, JPM , and JV have relative comments about present F1 , you can expect me to start a thread about it .
If the history of F1 relates to the present , I will post about it .

PSfan called it "status quo" , and I agree .
This thread is one of pointless frustration for all .

[ArrowsFA1]

"No more discussions about them will be allowed in here" .-Pino

That seems pretty straight forward to me , and seems to be the crux of the issue.
In the Formula 1 forum. F1's past gets discussed in the H&N forum.

[Roamy]

it is pretty interesting that these 3 drivers must be so great that they have to be banned because no one really seems to give much of a **** about the current driver with the exception of very few.

instead of moving this thread they should call it the H&N thread and let it be.
simple words of wisdom let it be

[ArrowsFA1]

1) Discussion about these three, or any ex-F1 driver, is not banned. Never has been.
2) H&N threads go in the H&N forum - that's what this forum is for.

[harsha]

in other words,Schumi,JPM,JV are past drivers,anything about them should be discussed in the history and nostalgia forum

so the fights,bickering can continue here :cheese:

[rlenis]

Very cool article about the future lack of stars in F1 with the departure of the famous 3.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007703160435

[D-Type]

Unfortunatelly these 3 drivers are not longer part of today F1, so this is your last chance to say/post anything you want about them. This thread will stay here until Friday 16th, after that it will be moved into Nostalgia Forum, and no more discussions about them will be allowed in here. I go first...

Juan, you're a very spectacular driver and I've enjoyed every moment of your stay in F1, it's very sad no watching you anymore...Good Luck for your future!

Jacques, I've always liked you (probably because you're a Villeneuve) but to be honest, lately I've enjoyed your big mouth more than you driver skills :p :

Michael, I can't thank you enough for bringing and keeping Ferrari on top of F1 for so many years.I will miss you !

pinoCan I respectfully point out that two of these three drivers are still racing.

One is racing in what is arguably the best supported form of racing in the world - NASCAR. Whether you like it or not, more people follow, as opposed to turn the TV on to watch, NASCAR than they do Formula 1.

Another will be competing in the 2007 running of the greatest single motor race currently being run. Now that the cars competing in the International Sweepstakes are a one make formula or effectively so, it can no longer be considered a race for man and machine so the mantle of 'Greatest single race' falls on the le mans 24 hours, even if the powers that be no longer give it Grande Epreuve status.

Despite the marketing and trade marking of the names, the Grand Prix or Formula 1 series of races is not the only form of international racing.

Having said that, I will miss seeing these three racers in Grands Prix and eagerly await who will take up the legacy they have helped carry forward from Ferenc Szisz and the pioneers before him. I will be interested to see who out of the present bunch becomes 'the man to beat' which is the true measure of a great driver, not how many points he won or lost, how many pole positions, or even how many wins.

[ioan]

Very cool article about the future lack of stars in F1 with the departure of the famous 3.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007703160435

Might be cool, but it says some stupid things, like:

"Raikkonen's new partner is Felipe Massa, a Brazilian who speaks little English. His popularity has been stunted by the abundance of countrymen outshining him, including former Ferrari driver Rubens Barrichello, beginning his second season with Honda, last year's fourth-place team."

[Sirius]

Come on guys, let's give it a rest. :s mokin:

Yes, let's give it a rest. :up:

Some of you guys need to go back to school because your comprehension skills are lacking in the worst possible way.

And Arrows...I think you deserve a few days off for having to put up with this nonsense.

Sirius