Webber and his lack of thinking

[ioan]

Last time it was Vettel, before that there were countless other accident he provoked.
Today he showed his true colors again.

Get a grip Mark, or go home before you kill someone. :down:

[Daniel]

:up:

[Mark]

Nice crash mind. Back in the day that would have been the end of Webber!

[Instant Mash]

Red Bull gives you wings.

[Daniel]

Nice crash mind. Back in the day that would have been the end of Webber!
The footage was amazing. Looked like seeing a loop in an aircraft.

[Mark]

I don't know if it was riding up on kovas tyres or because there was an instant loss of front downforce.

[ShiftingGears]

I thought they were both trying to second guess each other and the accident happened.

[christophulus]

David Coulthard's given a nice unbiased opinion.. Webber's fault all day long. No reason at all to move left with Kovalainen.

[ioan]

I thought they were both trying to second guess each other and the accident happened.

Still I bet Webber also has brakes in his car.

[Instant Mash]

Shouldn't Kovalainen have been completely off the line by then, though? Also, you did see him brake as Webber went into the back of him.

I think they were both at fault.

[markabilly]

No, never could the Chopper be at fault---I KNOW U AUSTRALIANS ARE SO DEFENSIVE

shame on HK for braking and not running off course to get out of the way

He is very lucky this time, but not as lucky when Vettel and he bumped....

wonder what the problem was on his start?

[Daniel]

Shouldn't Kovalainen have been completely off the line by then, though? Also, you did see him brake as Webber went into the back of him.

I think they were both at fault.
It was for position

[Ranger]

Mostly Webber's fault. Miraculous both drivers walked away.

Incredible footage! :s hock:

[Instant Mash]

It was for position

My bad. I just assumed, what with it being a Lotus and all...

[Daniel]

My bad. I just assumed, what with it being a Lotus and all...
I suspect you weren't the only Australian who assumed that the Lotus should just move over for him.......

[ioan]

Shouldn't Kovalainen have been completely off the line by then, though?

No.

[Instant Mash]

No, never could the Chopper be at fault---I KNOW U AUSTRALIANS ARE SO DEFENSIVE

shame on HK for braking and not running off course to get out of the way

He is very lucky this time, but not as lucky when Vettel and he bumped....

wonder what the problem was on his start?

Don't bust a nut.

[ShiftingGears]

Still I bet Webber also has brakes in his car.

Yes, it was Webber's fault.

[Daniel]

Yes, it was Webber's fault.
and with respect I think people need to re-evaluate their views of the Turkish GP incident with this incident in mind.

[Instant Mash]

I maintain that Turkey was 90% Vettel. This, however, was Webber.

[markabilly]

Don't bust a nut.
tell webber, he could defintely use the advice

[Instant Mash]

tell webber, he could defintely use the advice

Haters gonna hate.

[Ranger]

and with respect I think people need to re-evaluate their views of the Turkish GP incident with this incident in mind.

I disagree. I know at least I don't evaluate accidents on precedents.

Turkey was 70% Vettel's fault.
Valencia was 90% Webber's fault.

Both were more racing incidents than anything though, hence no penalties have been handed out.

IMO.

[ioan]

Haters gonna hate.

Don't get to hot under the collar, Webber is not worth it.

[markabilly]

well whenever one says something not good, that makes him a hater????

truth hurts that bad??

Well right now, I admit that I am a hater of F1 management, as the race does not come on until 3 hours later on Fox, and my live feed, just got blocked worse than that kobysokie whatever

[ioan]

I disagree. I know at least I don't evaluate accidents on precedents.

Turkey was 70% Vettel's fault.
Valencia was 80% Webber's fault.

Both were more racing incidents than anything though, hence no penalties have been handed out.

You could have been on to a better start by acknowledging that Valencia was 100% Webber's fault, but you needed to show your bias I guess.

[Instant Mash]

I don't care what you say. After reading into it, I admit that Webber was at fault.

Your post just came across as if you were bashing him for the sake of it.

[Daniel]

I disagree. I know at least I don't evaluate accidents on precedents.

Turkey was 70% Vettel's fault.
Valencia was 80% Webber's fault.

Both were more racing incidents than anything though, hence no penalties have been handed out.
Accidents like the one today should NEVER happen.....

[Ranger]

You could have been on to a better start by acknowledging that Valencia was 100% Webber's fault, but you needed to show your bias I guess.

With all due respect this is a pointless post by you. Commenting on the poster, not the post. :down:

Although on 2nd thought I call it 90% Webber's fault. Neither were 100% clear-cut though.

And no I don't agree with DC or Brundle's view of this accident.

[wedge]

Webbo completely forgot his braking points and wanted another slipstream instead of banzai and clean air of the inside.

Brundle & DC reckons it was Kovy's fault. The mind boggles at that one.

[ioan]

Although on 2nd thought I call it 90% Webber's fault. Neither were 100% clear-cut though.

And the rest of 10% is his left foot's fault, I dare to suggest.

[Mark]

DC siding with Webber and Jordan having a fight with him on TV!

[markabilly]

DC siding with Webber and Jordan having a fight with him on TV!
too bad I can not see that "cat fight"

[ioan]

DC siding with Webber...

Fully understandable, just check out how many close calls and accidents DC provoked in his years at RBR. Must be like a dozen too many.

[Mia 01]

Webber to frustated and eager.

Reminds me of the Lewis hit.

[Bagwan]

Well now , ol' Webbo gets it all wrong again .

Worst thing for the team is not the loss of points , or car , for that matter .

Worst are the beautiful shots of the underside of the car as it waves to the camera , bringing some of that Newey magic to the viewing public .

At least he didn't do it to his team-mate this time .

Is he still the head of the GPDA ?

[Azumanga Davo]

*copy paste usual fortnightly rant*

[Easy Drifter]

Mostly Webber's fault.
But it is a split second decision and Webber made the wrong one. It can happen very easily and has before and will again.
Nobody who has raced will ever be adamant about total blame in such a case.
If you want a precedent with disasterous results see Villeneuve /Mass.

[ShiftingGears]

If you want a precedent with disasterous results see Villeneuve /Mass.

This was the first racing incident I thought of when the accident happened.

[Garry Walker]

Last time it was Vettel

Yeah, last time it was that moron vettel who turned into his teammate and ruined two races in one move, what a classless prick he is.

Today Webber made a mistake.

Next time hopefully it will be vettel again.


and with respect I think people need to re-evaluate their views of the Turkish GP incident with this incident in mind.
Why? So that the few fools who refuse to look at facts could achieve ejaculation?
Turkey was 100% Vettels fault. Today was 100% Webbers fault. Anything else is fanboy BS.

[Daniel]

Why? So that the few fools who refuse to look at facts could achieve ejaculation?
Turkey was 100% Vettels fault. Today was 100% Webbers fault. Anything else is fanboy BS.

And Garry hath spoke, and Daniel hath ignored.

[Garry Walker]

And Garry hath spoke, and Daniel hath ignored.

Like you and Ioan ignored all the facts from Turkey, but hey, its your right. Just as it is my right to consider everyone holding the view you hold as fools.

[Daniel]

Like you and Ioan ignored all the facts from Turkey, but hey, its your right. Just as it is my right to consider everyone holding the view you hold as fools.
*puts fingers in ears and says "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me* :rotflmao:

[PSfan]

Why? So that the few fools who refuse to look at facts could achieve ejaculation?
Turkey was 100% Vettels fault. Today was 100% Webbers fault. Anything else is fanboy BS.

This is still a point we will never see eye to eye, and thankfully so... The fact you can't seem to grasp the simple concept that Mark had a good 3 secs to read RED BULL on Vettel's car as he passed by then it will never sink in... Had it been any other driver then Vettel in that incident I would have split the blame seeing as Webber had a clearer view of the potential danger and still was hard nosed about forcing the passing driver on the dirty line, in fact would still give Webber most of the credit in that situation as well, guess the concept of discretion is the better part of valor is probably foreign to some of the Webber fans...

As for todays incident, because I suspect Heikki might have slowed down a little catching Webber off, I'll go with 90% Webber's fault...

[AndyL]

As for todays incident, because I suspect Heikki might have slowed down a little catching Webber off, I'll go with 90% Webber's fault...

Christian Horner pointed out after the race that the Lotuses' braking point is a lot earlier than that of the front runners, and it seems Mark failed to take sufficient account of that.

[Zico]

Turkey mostly Vetels fault, today mostly Marks fault... clearly so in both cases.

[jens]

There is one clear difference between Vettel and Webber and this is why I think Vettel will be the main title contender of the two and that is not due to team orders.

When Vettel has an off-day or is underperforming, he is usually one position behind Webber (Spain before pitstop cock-up, Monaco) - this shows quite a high standard of his driving. But when Webber has an off-day, he can be absolutely nowhere like in Bahrain or Valencia. Vettel has basically made one significant mistake all season (Turkey, we all know it), which has been blown out of proportion and as a result he has been made look like an unreliable driver.

[UltimateDanGTR]

There is one clear difference between Vettel and Webber and this is why I think Vettel will be the main title contender of the two and that is not due to team orders.

When Vettel has an off-day or is underperforming, he is usually one position behind Webber (Spain before pitstop cock-up, Monaco) - this shows quite a high standard of his driving. But when Webber has an off-day, he can be absolutely nowhere like in Bahrain or Valencia

amen to that.

Im just glad Webber is OK after the crash, the speed at which he went into the tyre barrier was huge.

unfortunatly, because he hit a lotus LdM will undoubtably use it as ammunition against the new teams......

[ioan]

unfortunatly, because he hit a lotus LdM will undoubtably use it as ammunition against the new teams......

No need for that, Di Grassi and Glock gave LdM plenty of amunition today.

[woody2goody]

I maintain that Turkey was 90% Vettel. This, however, was Webber.

Turkey was 100% Vettel.

However as stupid as this sounds for such a big crash, I think this was a racing incident. Webber caught kovy very quickly and underestimated the speed, and kovy should have held his line.

I didn't like coulthard's opinion that Heikki should have let Mark through just because he is in a slower car though.

[UltimateDanGTR]

No need for that, Di Grassi and Glock gave LdM plenty of amunition today.

this is true actually I concede. the virgin's were certainly a hinderence today. not to mention the private battle between them and senna which held various cars up

[rohanweb]

Turkey was 100% Vettel.

However as stupid as this sounds for such a big crash, I think this was a racing incident. Webber caught kovy very quickly and underestimated the speed, and kovy should have held his line.

I didn't like coulthard's opinion that Heikki should have let Mark through just because he is in a slower car though.



agreed matey,
thats why Mark webber will never be a world champion, vettel have time to learn.. you cannot train old dogs new tricks..

[Rollo]

Mostly Webber's fault. Miraculous both drivers walked away.

Mostly? If that was a road accident, ALL of the fault would be attributed to the following car. If this was an RACQ, RACV or NRMA claim, he'd be the one who'd have to pay the excess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V86IC6dYtos
I can't see any evidence of Heikki deliberately swerving to get into Webber's way. Quite the opposite, he barely even moves off the line he was already on, even after being smacked in the rear.

[F1boat]

Really Mark must relax even if things are not going his way.... this was really dangerous. For him and for Kovalainen.

[ioan]

Turkey was 100% Vettel.

However as stupid as this sounds for such a big crash, I think this was a racing incident.

And on top of this you should swear that you are not biased! :laugh:

[AndyL]

Mostly? If that was a road accident, ALL of the fault would be attributed to the following car.

Well yes, but if they all followed the 2-second rule we'd have very boring racing ;)

[fandango]

Turkey was 100% Vettel.

However as stupid as this sounds for such a big crash, I think this was a racing incident. Webber caught kovy very quickly and underestimated the speed, and kovy should have held his line.

I didn't like coulthard's opinion that Heikki should have let Mark through just because he is in a slower car though.

I agree. I was shocked to hear the "those slower cars should just get out of the way" attitude from many on the BBC, and equally surprised to find I agreed completely with Eddie Jordan. I thought Jordan's repeated baiting of Horner about who was to blame after the race was a little tasteless, though.

DC tried the "you ain't been there" card, but if the car is on the track, within the rules, then any driver who doesn't fight for position shouldn't be there. Leaving them with a nice job as a pundit...

[Zico]

Mark probably just wasn't used to actually racing the back of the grid cars and failed to take into account the fact that the Lotus has to brake far earlier than his RB can, you could argue that he should have known this or that it was simply a racing incident, either way I dont blame Heiki at all.

Maybe there should be a place in F1 for a brake light.. but then I supose he was so close that maybe even that wouldn't have made any difference. :/

[wedge]

I thought Jordan's repeated baiting of Horner about who was to blame after the race was a little tasteless, though.

Nothing wrong with it IMO.

Horner's at the sharp end of the grid now and needs to be put to the test on such matters and kept his cool. Way better than say Ron Dennis' arrogance and bad use of the English language.

Also, EJ's 'I need to back my driver' card was valid and DC's look on his face that simply said: 'you must think I'm digging hole you Irish.... how about I rearrange you face'

[Daniel]

Yes DC did look a bit angry :)

[Eki]

Still I bet Webber also has brakes in his car.
The brakes don't work if you have lost the down force and your car is in the air.

[speeddurango]

HK's fault as he moved more than once defending position, such move then proceeded to be deadly when he decided the third move across the track should be at his braking point which was much earlier than the Redbull. I guess apart from one case of reprimanding Hamilton, they never take measures to punish driver who change lines more than once. There was similar scenario where Ralf flew over Barrichello in Albert Park where RB clearly moved all over the place before that happened, and he got away with it too.

[CNR]

"In the end the thing that surprised me was how early he braked, that's the thing which caught me out," Webber told the BBC.[/color]




He was slightly critical of Kovalainen's "aggressive" driving, but said the real reason for the crash was the difference between the cars


Read more: F1: Webber Spectacular Crash, Vettel Wins In Valencia, 'Accept Rules' Hamilton Tells Ferrari | Reviews | Prices | Australian specifications (http://www.themotorreport.com.au/50505/f1-vettel-wins-webber-unhurt-in-valencia-crash-accept-rules-hamilton-tells-ferrari#ixzz0s6K1XYNu) http://www.themotorreport.com.au/50505/f1-vettel-wins-webber-unhurt-in-valencia-crash-accept-rules-hamilton-tells-ferrari#ixzz0s6K1XYNu (http://www.themotorreport.com.au/50505/f1-vettel-wins-webber-unhurt-in-valencia-crash-accept-rules-hamilton-tells-ferrari#ixzz0s6K1XYNu[/color)






this is the crash that will be on sports bloopers for years

[Prancing Horse]

50 - 50

50% Heikki for making too many moves.

50% Mark for being too aggressive.

[CNR]

]Malaysia Star (blog)
http://blog.thestar.com.my/permalink.asp?id=31342


Malaysia's moving road block, the Lotus F1 team, caused a massive accident with the Red Bull car in the European GP.
The big speed difference was a major contributing factor and the Lotus driver's silly attempt not to pull aside and let Mark Webber past was the other big contributing factor.

[Gibbsy]

I love how Mark holding his line and not giving enough room and allowing Vettel to hit him was Marks fault in a lot of your eyes.

And then in Valencia the guy Mark tries to overtake zigzags all over the racing line in the breaking zone and allows Webber to hit him and its still Webbers fault.

Fortunately the truth is that Martin Brundle knows a hell of a lot more about racing than Ioan, Bagwwan, Daniel, markabilly etc combined.

[Azumanga Davo]

Of course, I shall write to the insurance company that took $1700 of my money a few years back and ask for it to be returned. Clearly I lost downforce to cause my brakes to not work as effectively and, being in a VK Commodore, would easily have passed a Barina anyway...

Oh wait, of course, the car who rear ends is always at fault. So why does the blameless wonder get away with it yet again?

[Rusty Spanner]

Webber is OK which is the main thing. Other than that it's just a racing accident.

I understand DC's point about why bother to race the Red Bull and loose time yourself when its inevitable he'll pass you pretty soon but disagree under the circumstance. Was Heikki really in a close fight with anyone else at time? Didn't look like it. Was he likely to catch anyone in front and a few seconds may make all the difference? Not really. So hell may as well race Webber. It's what the team is there and wants to do plus it'll give the mechanics a big grin.

I wonder if the differential in braking performance between the Lotus and Red Bull was exagerated by the characteristics of the track? The Red Bull is a much more efficient car. Not only can it produce far more total downforce than the Lotus it can produce a given amount of downforce for a lot less drag. Possibly Lotus had to run a lot less downforce than the Red Bull in order to get rid of drag and still maintain its speed on the straights. This would mean they've got less grip early in the braking zone, have slower apex speed due and consequently longer braking distances.

[Gibbsy]

Of course, I shall write to the insurance company that took $1700 of my money a few years back and ask for it to be returned. Clearly I lost downforce to cause my brakes to not work as effectively and, being in a VK Commodore, would easily have passed a Barina anyway...

Oh wait, of course, the car who rear ends is always at fault. So why does the blameless wonder get away with it yet again?

Yeah because what you do in you ****box commodore is absolutely relevant to F1.

Just read that the lotus broke 80 meters earlier than Webber did in the previous lap. its a issue of performance differential being a real problem, not of "omg driver x screwed up".

[pino]

Racing incident that could've happent to anyone...there's no need to criticise Webber or Kova for that :down:

[Mark]

Looking at it now. Yes, racing incident. Webber should have realised Kova would brake earlier than him, and react accordingly. Kova should have done the same!

[Azumanga Davo]

Yeah because what you do in you ****box commodore is absolutely relevant to F1.

Just read that the lotus broke 80 meters earlier than Webber did in the previous lap. its a issue of performance differential being a real problem, not of "omg driver x screwed up".

Of course, Mr Blameless gets away with it again. Get a clue. Who was behind? Who should have anticipated the car was going to do something weird? That's right, the bloke behind...

Amazing, a nation of blind people when it comes to Webber.

[Dave B]

I defended Mark after Turkey and faced criticism of bias in favour of the Aussie. I stand by that support, but the Valencia incident was clearly an error of judgement from Webber.

They were racing for position, Heikki was under no obligation to make life easy. The onus always falls on the driver behind to safely complete the pass. Mark should have been aware that it was a much slower car and given it the necessary space to brake for the corner.

I'm just glad that both drivers are unharmed :up:

[wedge]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8766002.stm (UK users only)

Astonishingly Webbo looks and acts all innocent.

[Daniel]

They were racing for position, Heikki was under no obligation to make life easy. The onus always falls on the driver behind to safely complete the pass. Mark should have been aware that it was a much slower car and given it the necessary space to brake for the corner.

I'm just glad that both drivers are unharmed :up:

Couldn't agree more. This really is one of those accidents which is either one person's fault or the other person's fault.

Now unless Heikki brake checked Webber (unbloodylikely!) Mark was at fault for not braking early enough. It's either one or the other, with slower cars in the field the cars behind have to be mindful when racing them for position, it's not like Heikki can brake later, it's Mark's fault and anything less than that is making excuses for what was a frigging serious accident that could have really hurt people....... to say it's a racing incident is to accept that this sort of thing is OK to happen again.

[wedge]

To be fair, in endurance racing faster cars running into slower cars happens a lot and is generally accepted as racing incidents because making your way through lapped traffic is part of the challenge.

But in F1, sadly, slower cars are expected to move over.

[Daniel]

In endurance racing when it's for POSITION and there's a crash the faster car is the one that's responsible for the pass.

[ioan]

The brakes don't work if you have lost the down force and your car is in the air.

His car was in the air only after running over Heikki's car.
Also Buemi, Alonso and Kobayashi were running very very close to each other and still their brakes worked fine, so I am not buying these excuses.

[ioan]

I love how Mark holding his line and not giving enough room and allowing Vettel to hit him was Marks fault in a lot of your eyes.

Good, I would have been very concerned if you would have hated our stance! :p


Fortunately the truth is that Martin Brundle knows a hell of a lot more about racing than Ioan, Bagwwan, Daniel, markabilly etc combined.

Sweet delusion. :D

[ioan]

...would easily have passed a Barina anyway...


WTH is that?

[ioan]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8766002.stm (UK users only)

Astonishingly Webbo looks and acts all innocent.

What were you expecting?!

[BDunnell]

What were you expecting?!

Of any driver, let's face it. Most are hardly models of contrition.

[ioan]

Of any driver, let's face it. Most are hardly models of contrition.

Not in such clear cut cases.
I doubt Lewis played the innocent lil' girl after running into Kimi's car in Canada.

[slinkster]

What infuriated me most about this with our BBC footage was the fact that Coulthard, Brundle (who I usually have a lot of respect for) and Legard all kept saying that Heikki should have moved over. WHY exactly?! It was for position. Red Bull haven't always been the fastest team on the circuit either, were they expected to move aside when they were starting out too? Hell no.

It really annoyed me. Racing incident. Webber should know better.

[ioan]

What infuriated me most about this with our BBC footage was the fact that Coulthard, Brundle (who I usually have a lot of respect for) and Legard all kept saying that Heikki should have moved over. WHY exactly?! It was for position. Red Bull haven't always been the fastest team on the circuit either, were they expected to move aside when they were starting out too? Hell no.

It really annoyed me. Racing incident. Webber should know better.

Most probably DC and Brundle would have buggered off and let Webber through, so they are just true to their own loser nature.
At least Leggard has the excuse of not being an ex 'racing' driver.

[Retro Formula 1]

Obviously an error of judgement from Mark but thank God he walked away from it.

Although a racing incident, it was one that was Marks fault.

[airshifter]

A racing incident with the majority of poor judgement going to Webber. I get the impression Kovy made his last move to get Mark off of him and get on the brakes, but Mark followed. Bonehead move by Webber.

I did notice in super slow motion that Webber did at least attempt to brake. The tires were not rotating at all in the air.

[Rollo]

WTH is that?

A Barina, is Holden's nameplate for their small car. Depending on the model year, the nameplate has sat on the Suzuki Swift, Opel Corsa and Daewoo Kalos.

To take this back to the analogy: If you drive a Commodore (big car) into the back of a Barina (small car), then the Commodore driver is the at fault driver because it is the car following the first one.

Even of the leading car was stationery, it's still the trailing car's fault for failing to take action.

[Ranger]

Not in such clear cut cases.
I doubt Lewis played the innocent lil' girl after running into Kimi's car in Canada.

That wasn't a racing incident.

[CNR]

A Barina, is Holden's nameplate for their small car. Depending on the model year, the nameplate has sat on the Suzuki Swift, Opel Corsa and Daewoo Kalos.



Opel Corsa - Europe (except for UK); Vauxhall Corsa - United Kingdom; Holden Barina - Australia, New Zealand

[CNR]

Going down the back straight he went a little bit to the left, so I thought maybe he's going to let me go," Webber told The Australian News.
"Then he went back to the right, so I thought 'OK, he's going to fight'. I was in the slipstream, I looked to the left, then he went back left, and then as soon as I looked right, he braked."

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sports/2010-06/29/c_13375222.htm

Q:time for brake lights on an f1 car ?

[Dave B]

Q:time for brake lights on an f1 car ?
No.

Firstly these types of accidents are ultra rare, secondly the light wouldn't come on if the driver simply lifted, and lastly in this specific case Webber would have had no time to react anyway.

[Mark]

No.

Firstly these types of accidents are ultra rare, secondly the light wouldn't come on if the driver simply lifted, and lastly in this specific case Webber would have had no time to react anyway.

F1 drivers should be smart enough to know that if a car is coming up to a corner, it's going to need to brake! And if that car is a 'slow' one, it'll probably brake before you do. Webber could have easily outbraked the Lotus into that corner if he'd wished..

[Mia 01]

This one was truly Marks fault.

[TheFamousEccles]

Oh, of course Webber is to blame! What was he thinking - why would he not expect a car that is 4+ seconds of the pace to fight for "position"?

I bow to the superior judgment of the oracles of this forum (they know who they are).

[markabilly]

F1 drivers should be smart enough to know that if a car is coming up to a corner, it's going to need to brake! ..

Now, where did you ever get that dumb idea.... :eek:

Next really dumber thing you will say is that F1 drivers are as smart as the average driver on the street who knows how to yield and merge into traffic....

In many races the last few years, both statements have been repeatedly demonstrated to have no merit .....

[HoldenCaulfield]

Webber, zigged when he should have zagged.
Coulthard, spoke when he should have shut up.

[Daniel]

Oh, of course Webber is to blame! What was he thinking - why would he not expect a car that is 4+ seconds of the pace to fight for "position"?

I bow to the superior judgment of the oracles of this forum (they know who they are).

I have to laugh at this post.

I detect sarcasm but I'm not actually sure what point you're trying to make.....

I suspect these oracles don't know who they are because your post doesn't seem to have a clear point.

[Rollo]

Holden Barina - Australia, New Zealand

At the moment the Barina is the Daewoo Kalos or Daewoo Gentra which is sold in Europe as the Chevrolet Aveo. It's a truly nasty little car which meant that the Barina nameplate went from a 4-star NCAP rated car to a 2-star NCAP rated car.
Even a 1979 Gemini is safer and produces more power.

[Ari]

David Coulthard's given a nice unbiased opinion.. Webber's fault all day long. No reason at all to move left with Kovalainen.

Is the truth.

Webber said that Kovi braked early. But did he brake early for the Red Bull or early for the Lotus? The Red Bull is somewhat quicker than the Lotus.

In addition, it appears Heikki moved to the left before the incident. Did he brake early and move to the outside to give Webber, in a faster car, passage down the inside?

All just discussion now.

Ultimately, if you're the guy behind it's your job not to hit the guy in front.

[Tazio]

Is the truth.

Webber said that Kovi braked early. But did he brake early for the Red Bull or early for the Lotus? The Red Bull is somewhat quicker than the Lotus.

In addition, it appears Heikki moved to the left before the incident. Did he brake early and move to the outside to give Webber, in a faster car, passage down the inside?

All just discussion now.

Ultimately, if you're the guy behind it's your job not to hit the guy in front.Ari this is the only comment I've even read on this thread. And I've implied some unfavorable attributes to Chopper I mean Mark. Mostly because I like Webber a little more than Vettel, but to me it ended up being damage limitation for the Scuds. However I saw it the way you just described it. It was like The Boss VP deal only not a move to break the draft! As for the breaking and who has the bigger balls in that regard is speculative. It's like having a car accident on the road in California. The guy in front can be brake testing the **** out of you but if you make contact your insurance better be in order because when you hit someone from behind in the Great State of California it is your fault!
Just happy noone was hurt, and they will both be full of piss and vineger come Silverstone! :up: :) :s mokin:

[Saint Devote]

It was brainfade - not unusual in racing drivers at times.

These are remarkable individuals and of all people, in these cases let us here not add to Mark's miserable day. Thanks to technology these days such an accident allows the driver to walk away physically unscathed.

Insulting Webber by calling it a "lack of thinking" is just not right to me.

Racing incidents occur and leave it at that.

[RJL25]

I don't see Mark Webber complaining about Kovi, he isn't trying to blame Kovi for the incident, he isn't complaining and saying poor me, so frankly I don't know what this whole fan bashing and carrying on is all about.

Webber would be the first to admit he made a mistake, he misjudged the Lotus and made contact in the rear, he isn't shying away from that, all he is doing is explaining why he made the mistake, Kovi braked 70m before Webber normally brakes, so Mark was taken by surprise by Kovi braking where he did and made contract as a result, thats all he is saying.

I don't see why Webbo is having a problem with the fans here, all F1 drivers make mistakes, Webber made a mistake today, thats it!

[RJL25]

Just a reminder that at near on 300km/h only a few feet apart from each other, F1 drivers do sometimes make mistakes! These things happen so fast, it happens some times! It's not like he tried to run someone off the circuit or something like that in which case I could understand the bashing, but when a bloke just flat out makes a mistake, missjudges a situation when going that fast, sh&t it happens sometimes fellahs! Cut him some slack...

[Tazio]

Insulting Webber by calling it a "lack of thinking" is just not right to me.

Racing incidents occur and leave it at that.

Well put, and bobs your uncle! :)

[MrJan]

Racing incidents occur and leave it at that.

That wasn't a racing incident though, Webber cleanly drove into the back of HK. Even if Heikki had continued to move across then Mark would still have plowed into the back of him. Only an idiot thinks that they need that much slipstream to overtake a Lotus.

For once I agree with the numbskull Walker, Turkey was Vettle and Valencia was Webber, you can't blame the other drivers involved for either.

[Daniel]

Sadly some people dress all accidents up as racing incidents as if this somehow excuses ploughing into the back of someone else at speed.....

[Firstgear]

What has HK had to say about his slight left-then-right, and his breaking point relative to previous laps?

[e2mtt]

Webber was clearly at fault - and not thinking. He was tucked up behind & slipstreaming a Lotus into a corner. Dumb idea. Race drivers have to pay attention - surely in the preceding lap Webber could have noticed that the Lotus got on the brakes earlier then he had to. Webber was racing the Lotus like it was a McLaren.

[ioan]

What has HK had to say about his slight left-then-right, and his breaking point relative to previous laps?

Maybe he was trying to scratch himself and the car moved half a meter left and then half a meter right, he certainly didn't wave all over the track.

[ioan]

Sadly some people dress all accidents up as racing incidents as if this somehow excuses ploughing into the back of someone else at speed.....

Well every incident that happens on track during a race is a racing incident, however I realized that, for some strange reason that I don't know, people think that calling it a racing incident absolves everyone from taking any blame for it.

[ioan]

Just a reminder that at near on 300km/h only a few feet apart from each other, F1 drivers do sometimes make mistakes!

Getting within a few feet behind the gearbox of another car while traveling at 300km/h is a huge mistake, even Webber knows that by now, especially with 4 cars width available on the left side!

[ioan]

It was brainfade - not unusual in racing drivers at times.

These are remarkable individuals and of all people, in these cases let us here not add to Mark's miserable day. Thanks to technology these days such an accident allows the driver to walk away physically unscathed.

Insulting Webber by calling it a "lack of thinking" is just not right to me.

Racing incidents occur and leave it at that.

What the difference between brain fade and lack of thinking and why would the later be worse than the former?

[CNR]

lotus the most dangerous of the new teams
http://i46.tinypic.com/2wevtq0.jpg

[Rollo]

lotus the most dangerous of the new teams


If you include in-race accidents, then HRT are on 4 accidents for the season as opposed to Lotus' 2. Sauber are on 4 and Williams are on 3.
Actually Mark Webber personally has been in two which is equally as dangerous as the entire of Team Lotus who spread their accidents out.

I reject your reality… and substitute truth.

[Saint Devote]

What the difference between brain fade and lack of thinking and why would the later be worse than the former?

Brainfade encompasses thinking but at that point misjudging the situation - which is what Webber did, leading to the incident. He was doing what a quicker car does, look for a way by.

However, looks to me as if Kovaleinen did not observe the golden rule on the race track - to keep to the existing line and let the quicker car find a way by - HK moved around.

Webber's error in the incident was reacting to Kovalainen rather than letting the Finn settle down and waiting.

But it is so easy to point fingers and that sort of situation always has high risk attached.

[Saint Devote]

Just a reminder that at near on 300km/h only a few feet apart from each other, F1 drivers do sometimes make mistakes! These things happen so fast, it happens some times! It's not like he tried to run someone off the circuit or something like that in which case I could understand the bashing, but when a bloke just flat out makes a mistake, missjudges a situation when going that fast, sh&t it happens sometimes fellahs! Cut him some slack...

I prefer not to classify it as a mistake - but that aside, I agree wholeheartedly with your comment.

[RJL25]

I'd love to see these experts (Ioan and Daniel) try and do better I really would...

Mark stuffed up, he'd be the first to admit that, but these guys just don't like him so want to slam him for it, but look he wasn't trying to drive Kovi off the circuit or do anything dangerous like that, he just flat out stuffed up and that happens sometimes!

All Mark was saying post the incident is that Kovi braked for the corner a lot earlier then he was expecting and that is why Mark thought he still had enough time to stay in the draft when he didn't.

[RJL25]

still it does bring sharply into focus the need for the 107% rule because cars that are miles off the pace are actually dangerous, people need to realise this, closing speeds can be a real problem, no one can deny that Mark is a very experienced F1 driver, even the ones who hate him, so for him or any F1 driver quite frankly to get caught out by the closing speed should be telling people something. And the Lotus is actually the fastest of the new teams!

When there is KERS and adjustable wings the closing speeds could potentially be huge and cause some very big accidents...

[Rollo]

still it does bring sharply into focus the need for the 107% rule because cars that are miles off the pace are actually dangerous,

1"38.132' (which is what Kubica in Q1 Posted) * 107% = 1"45.001'
The slowest time in Q1 was 1:42.851 was Bruno Senna's Hispania, which is 2 seconds inside the 107% rule.

Even if the rule had applied it wouldn't have made a lick of difference.


no one can deny that Mark is a very experienced F1 driver, even the ones who hate him, so for him or any F1 driver quite frankly to get caught out by the closing speed should be telling people something.

Yeah, namely that he like everyone else is human, and also that Mark himself stuffed up.

[Valve Bounce]

and with respect I think people need to re-evaluate their views of the Turkish GP incident with this incident in mind.

Gee! you must have had a bad time in Oz. Did somebody do a Julia Gillard on you?

[RJL25]

I love inside jokes :D

[555-04Q2]

Mark stuffed up, he'd be the first to admit that

If you watched his informal press interview after the incident, he was trying to blame HK for the crash.

[Bagwan]

Red mist again .

Look where he was .
He was miles behind the leader , his team-mate , in the same car , behind a lowly Lotus .
That doesn't look good .

He "red mist" his braking point . It should have been 70 or 80 metres farther down the road , BESIDE the Lotus , not behind it .
But then , he probably would have interlocked wheels with Heikki , had he been beside him anyway , so maybe there was no good way for this to end peacefully at all .
They should switch seats , because then we could ask Mark if he would have moved out of the way .

[Tazio]

I haven't really kept up on RED Bull development (mostly because it's kind of scary) I could be mistaken but let me put one scenario out to be ridiculed :D
Isn't this the first race that Red Bull has used their rear wing stall device? Without it, it would be safe to say RB has more down force than Lotus, even in a straight line, possibly!
This may be a reach, but, Chopper may not have been all that aware of how close he got so rapidly with the R.W.S.D., that he misjudged his overtaking ability, which is a shame for him. If this is the case Chopper needs to get on a sharper learning curve with that device.
Just another example why these freakin' guys should be testing during the season!
Peace darn it! ;)

[Mia 01]

Mark was hot an eager, he lost a couple of places at the start.

I forgive him.

[ioan]

I'd love to see these experts (Ioan and Daniel) try and do better I really would...

Wish granted! :D
I never ran into the back of another car, that's already a lot better then what Webber did! :p :

[ioan]

If you watched his informal press interview after the incident, he was trying to blame HK for the crash.

How dare you post the truth?! ;)

[Daniel]

I'd love to see these experts (Ioan and Daniel) try and do better I really would...

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? :confused:

This is not about Ioan, myself or even you, this is about someone who is meant to be a top F1 driver.

So what if I would have gone into the back of Heikki? So what if I'd have got out of my car and taken a dump on Heikki's car and danced the macarena, it's irrelevant :rotflmao:

[Daniel]

Gee! you must have had a bad time in Oz. Did somebody do a Julia Gillard on you?
With all due respect stop talking crap.

[Tazio]

I haven't really kept up on RED Bull development (mostly because it's kind of scary) I could be mistaken but let me put one scenario out to be ridiculed :D
Isn't this the first race that Red Bull has used their rear wing stall device? Without it, it would be safe to say RB has more down force than Lotus, even in a straight line, possibly!
This may be a reach, but, Chopper may not have been all that aware of how close he got so rapidly with the R.W.S.D., that he misjudged his overtaking ability, which is a shame for him. If this is the case Chopper needs to get on a sharper learning curve with that device.
Just another example why these freakin' guys should be testing during the season!
Peace darn it! ;) And to finish my point the Red Bull because of its down force profile should be able to brake later than the Lotus! Combine that with the new RWSD and what do you get..... I'm not breaking those pictures out again I don't want the Judea/Mafia on my case! :vader:

[Saint Devote]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? :confused:

This is not about Ioan, myself or even you, this is about someone who is meant to be a top F1 driver.

So what if I would have gone into the back of Heikki? So what if I'd have got out of my car and taken a dump on Heikki's car and danced the macarena, it's irrelevant :rotflmao:

Why do you constantly have to be crass?
It is not a good reflection on you, is the height of bad manners and certainly brings the tone of this board down when it is allowed.

[Saint Devote]

Red mist again .

Look where he was .
He was miles behind the leader , his team-mate , in the same car , behind a lowly Lotus .
That doesn't look good .

He "red mist" his braking point . It should have been 70 or 80 metres farther down the road , BESIDE the Lotus , not behind it .
But then , he probably would have interlocked wheels with Heikki , had he been beside him anyway , so maybe there was no good way for this to end peacefully at all .
They should switch seats , because then we could ask Mark if he would have moved out of the way .

Supposition is not a valid foundation and is a straw man at best.

[Valve Bounce]

With all due respect stop talking crap.

Often, when people say "with all due respect", the opposite is true. I have noticed that you take particular delight in dumping on a driver from Oz. That's why I asked.

[Ari]

Ari this is the only comment I've even read on this thread. And I've implied some unfavorable attributes to Chopper I mean Mark. Mostly because I like Webber a little more than Vettel, but to me it ended up being damage limitation for the Scuds. However I saw it the way you just described it. It was like The Boss VP deal only not a move to break the draft! As for the breaking and who has the bigger balls in that regard is speculative. It's like having a car accident on the road in California. The guy in front can be brake testing the **** out of you but if you make contact your insurance better be in order because when you hit someone from behind in the Great State of California it is your fault!
Just happy noone was hurt, and they will both be full of piss and vineger come Silverstone! :up: :) :s mokin:

Cheers Taz!

As you said, just fortunate both live to tell the story. Was a big one!

It's no secret around here that I'm a Webber fan but I can still call a spade a spade. ;)

[markabilly]

Red mist again .

They should switch seats , because then we could ask Mark if he would have moved out of the way .
Bagwell, everyone, including chopper luvers all over the world, should one and all, already clearly know the answer to that question....


but if you or anyone else don't know, suggest you ask Vettel...... :eek:

of course, anyone should ask Markster "with all due respect".....

[Saint Devote]

Often, when people say "with all due respect", the opposite is true. I asked.

On the contrary, although not in all cases.....

Usually the term is used to define a context so that any subsequent message is not misconstrued with the tendency to be extrapolated OUT of context.

At least that is my usage.

[Tazio]

Cheers Taz!

As you said, just fortunate both live to tell the story. Was a big one!

It's no secret around here that I'm a Webber fan but I can still call a spade a spade. ;) Now let's pretend I'm "The Oracle" from "The Matrix" ;)
Apparently I'm not the only one that has postulated that the rear wing stall device contributed to the tremendous crash!
http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/story-139297.html
I hate using this source, and it does say quite clearly that it is a rumor!

According to a media report, Red Bull's first race with the F-duct concept in Valencia could have contributed to Mark Webber's huge crash.

In-car footage of the moments before the Australian struck the rear of Heikki Kovalainen's Lotus show him activating the down force-stalling device

Now here is the part that is going to "really bake your noodle" :eek:
If it was Fettel would there already be a clarification by the Red Bull propaganda machine ie making an excuse for the wunderkind?
And if it was Seb would he have not been so aggressive and mistaken?
Or could both propositions be simultaneously wrong and right? :confused:

I hate to break it to you Mark, but your not "The One"

[Daniel]

Why do you constantly have to be crass?
It is not a good reflection on you, is the height of bad manners and certainly brings the tone of this board down when it is allowed.

So basically when you can't argue about the facts you'll make it about manners? :laugh:

[Mia 01]

Red mist again .

Look where he was .
He was miles behind the leader , his team-mate , in the same car , behind a lowly Lotus .
That doesn't look good .

He "red mist" his braking point . It should have been 70 or 80 metres farther down the road , BESIDE the Lotus , not behind it .
But then , he probably would have interlocked wheels with Heikki , had he been beside him anyway , so maybe there was no good way for this to end peacefully at all .
They should switch seats , because then we could ask Mark if he would have moved out of the way .

You nailed it.

[Mia 01]

One moore, this proves that Turkey was marks fault.

[ShiftingGears]

One moore, this proves that Turkey was marks fault.

No it does not.

[Mia 01]

The car, RedBull is superiour and will stay that way.

Both Mark and Koba are excitng drivers, not top class, sometimes they are lucky, sometimes not.

[Tazio]

The car, RedBull is superiour and will stay that way.

Both Mark and Koba are excitng drivers, not top class, sometimes they are lucky, sometimes not.You guys do realize that Mia is an idiot savant,
and will some day occupy Steven Hawkings chair at Cambridge. :eek:
Hear me now, and understand me lata' :ninja:

[Saint Devote]

Red mist again .

Look where he was .
He was miles behind the leader , his team-mate , in the same car , behind a lowly Lotus .
That doesn't look good .

He "red mist" his braking point . It should have been 70 or 80 metres farther down the road , BESIDE the Lotus , not behind it .
But then , he probably would have interlocked wheels with Heikki , had he been beside him anyway , so maybe there was no good way for this to end peacefully at all .
They should switch seats , because then we could ask Mark if he would have moved out of the way .

Webber was being generous in not blaming Kovaleinen. It was the Finn that moved around triggering a reaction by Webber. Then Kovaleinen braked very early and Webber collided with him.

A race track is not a common road and anyone that has attended a racing school at even the most basic level knows the instructions when a quicker car is bearing down - you hold station and it is up to the quicker driver to find a way around.

Kovaleinen says it was for position - yes technically it was, but really, how can he make such as ridiculous blatant claim against an RB6 - and the chassis with which Mark secured all his pole positions this year as well as the Monte Carlo and Barcelona wins? Kovaleinen appears delusional.

Kovaleinen ought to have been called before the stewards to explain especially given the severe reprimand meted out to Hamilton and Vettel after the Shanghai pitlane dice.

[airshifter]

Webber was being generous in not blaming Kovaleinen. It was the Finn that moved around triggering a reaction by Webber. Then Kovaleinen braked very early and Webber collided with him.

A race track is not a common road and anyone that has attended a racing school at even the most basic level knows the instructions when a quicker car is bearing down - you hold station and it is up to the quicker driver to find a way around.

Kovaleinen says it was for position - yes technically it was, but really, how can he make such as ridiculous blatant claim against an RB6 - and the chassis with which Mark secured all his pole positions this year as well as the Monte Carlo and Barcelona wins? Kovaleinen appears delusional.

Kovaleinen ought to have been called before the stewards to explain especially given the severe reprimand meted out to Hamilton and Vettel after the Shanghai pitlane dice.

Kovy had every right to move, and Webber had every right not to follow him until he impacted the car. Why would you repremand a person for doing what is allowed by the regulations?

I'm sure some people thought Kobayashi was delusional before he passed Alonso for position at the last race. When slower cars are expected to move out of the way it won't be worth watching F1 at all.

As for letting the quicker driver find a way around, that usually applies to lapped cars. When fighting for position a driver can make the car as wide as he wants within the regs. Webber himself has often held up much faster cars, and defended way harder than Kovaleinen did.

[CNR]

Q :s o should blue flags be in the race at 107% of laptimes ?

[Bagwan]

http://gulfnews.com/sport/motorsport/webber-caught-in-a-web-of-arrogance-1.649725

Like a number of other drivers (who will remain nameless in this post to avoid derailing the thread) , when things go his way , Mark has total focus , and does well .
When the race goes awry , you do well to stay away from him , if you can .


The drivers all talk about the trust they have for each other , especially after a good dice through a set of corners .
They talk about the respect they have for a fair and skilled fight .

Heikki , who had every right to fight , and every right to take his line for the corner , has been criticized for not moving over .
Next time , he might , because instead of thinking about bracing for a fight , he may feel he should be bracing for an impact .

That's not earning the other driver's respect . It's making them fear you .

[Daniel]

Kovy had every right to move, and Webber had every right not to follow him until he impacted the car. Why would you repremand a person for doing what is allowed by the regulations?

I'm sure some people thought Kobayashi was delusional before he passed Alonso for position at the last race. When slower cars are expected to move out of the way it won't be worth watching F1 at all.

As for letting the quicker driver find a way around, that usually applies to lapped cars. When fighting for position a driver can make the car as wide as he wants within the regs. Webber himself has often held up much faster cars, and defended way harder than Kovaleinen did.

:up: Couldn't agree more.

[Saint Devote]

Kovy had every right to move, and Webber had every right not to follow him until he impacted the car. Why would you repremand a person for doing what is allowed by the regulations?

I'm sure some people thought Kobayashi was delusional before he passed Alonso for position at the last race. When slower cars are expected to move out of the way it won't be worth watching F1 at all.

As for letting the quicker driver find a way around, that usually applies to lapped cars. When fighting for position a driver can make the car as wide as he wants within the regs. Webber himself has often held up much faster cars, and defended way harder than Kovaleinen did.

Sure Kovaleinen had the position and could decide to defend by moving, but there was no point to it because the cars - and the drivers in my view - are not a match.

This was not a fight for position in the real sense - they were not lapping at the same pace and Webber was quickly gaining on him - 2 seconds a lap quicker at that point in the race.

The Finn is fortunate that it was Webber and not one of the less phlegmatic drivers.

The Kobabyashi-Alonso situation was entirely different. No comparison, as Alonso's tyres were off and Kobayashi's were "on" and they were lapping at a similar pace.

Is see the little Japanese has a quite a cute following on this board. Amazing.

[Daniel]

Sure Kovaleinen had the position and could decide to defend by moving, but there was no point to it because the cars - and the drivers in my view - are not a match.

This was not a fight for position in the real sense - they were not lapping at the same pace and Webber was quickly gaining on him - 2 seconds a lap quicker at that point in the race.


Rubbish. If any driver just let another driver past he'd be fired.

[Saint Devote]

http://gulfnews.com/sport/motorsport/webber-caught-in-a-web-of-arrogance-1.649725

Like a number of other drivers (who will remain nameless in this post to avoid derailing the thread) , when things go his way , Mark has total focus , and does well .
When the race goes awry , you do well to stay away from him , if you can .


The drivers all talk about the trust they have for each other , especially after a good dice through a set of corners .
They talk about the respect they have for a fair and skilled fight .

Heikki , who had every right to fight , and every right to take his line for the corner , has been criticized for not moving over .
Next time , he might , because instead of thinking about bracing for a fight , he may feel he should be bracing for an impact .

That's not earning the other driver's respect . It's making them fear you .

Welcome to the reality of F1.

Its always been this way and in fact before tv cameras were everywhere and the FIA became policemen it was far more.

Just ask Riccardo Patrese for example - which was an extreme case but has always remained contentious through these past over three decades.

But in the past even the those who became top drivers could relate stories that these days would offend the sensitivities of many fans.

I think the approach to the Webber-Kovaleinen incident reflects significantly the mores of fan culture that is imbued as each generation comes along.

Those for example, "born and raised" as fans in the 80's compared to those of the noughties, will always clash a lot.

Just the way it is.

[Tazio]

http://gulfnews.com/sport/motorsport/webber-caught-in-a-web-of-arrogance-1.649725

Like a number of other drivers (who will remain nameless in this post to avoid derailing the thread) , when things go his way , Mark has total focus , and does well .
When the race goes awry , you do well to stay away from him , if you can .


The drivers all talk about the trust they have for each other , especially after a good dice through a set of corners .
They talk about the respect they have for a fair and skilled fight .

Heikki , who had every right to fight , and every right to take his line for the corner , has been criticized for not moving over .
Next time , he might , because instead of thinking about bracing for a fight , he may feel he should be bracing for an impact .

That's not earning the other driver's respect . It's making them fear you .

I'm not saying that I am in total agreement with this (maybe 95-107%) :)
But:
Very well stated :up:

[Saint Devote]

Rubbish. If any driver just let another driver past he'd be fired.

It is extremely disingenuous for you to generalize like that.

And secondly, you do not defend your case but merely shout barbs here. That undermines your point.

Your point is therefore neutralized.

Letting another driver past in a real contest - lapping at the same pace - is one thing.

But [in the Valencia case] a driver that is moving at 2 seconds quicker per lap [Webber] and to aggravate the situation that slower driver [Kovaleinen] then decides to BRAKE almost 80 metres from the braking point on the straight - as well as moving [Kovaleinen] around is at the minimum obstruction.

It is encumbent upon the GPDA to meet at Silverstone and behind closed doors confront the Finnish driver over his ontrack behavior and result.

If Max was still the head of the FIA I reckon Kovaleinen would have been defending his decisions at the Palace de Concorde this Tuesday!

At the minimum his actions deserve a reprimand.

[Saint Devote]

I'm not saying that I am in total agreement with this (maybe 95-107%) :)
But:
Very well stated :up:

How does anyone agree with anything at 107%?? 100% is absolute my dear adversary.

You may agree with the message but you do not state reasons why.

[Saint Devote]

It might be a jokey reference to the 107% rule, I maybe wrong.

You could be correct.

Pity that F1 had to even contemplate that nonsense - better to allow third cars and admit new teams when their cars are competitive through testing rather.

[Tazio]

It might be a jokey reference to the 107% rule, I maybe wrong.You are a rather clever fellow. ;)
The allegory also includes having two cars so vastly different in performance :look:

[Daniel]

It is extremely disingenuous for you to generalize like that.

And secondly, you do not defend your case but merely shout barbs here. That undermines your point.

Your point is therefore neutralized.

Letting another driver past in a real contest - lapping at the same pace - is one thing.

But [in the Valencia case] a driver that is moving at 2 seconds quicker per lap [Webber] and to aggravate the situation that slower driver [Kovaleinen] then decides to BRAKE almost 80 metres from the braking point on the straight - as well as moving [Kovaleinen] around is at the minimum obstruction.

What have you been smoking?

You make a point that has no point at all and then proudly announce that my points is therefore neutralised :rotflmao:

Obstruction? What has Jarno Trulli been doing all that time whilst he was driving for Toyota? :rotflmao: In F1 you have to make the pass stick, you can't just drive into the back of someone or claim that they should move aside :rolleyes: This is F1, it's not kindergarten and you need to make your way past and you have to do it safely.

You try to pass yourself off as someone with knowledge of F1 back to day dot and someone who has full control of the English language but in reality you're just some guy who has his view (which is often clouded by fanboism or just plain wrong) and has a thesaurus open next to his computer to make himself seem more intelligent.

[Saint Devote]

What have you been smoking?

You make a point that has no point at all and then proudly announce that my points is therefore neutralised :rotflmao:

Obstruction? What has Jarno Trulli been doing all that time whilst he was driving for Toyota? :rotflmao: In F1 you have to make the pass stick, you can't just drive into the back of someone or claim that they should move aside :rolleyes: This is F1, it's not kindergarten and you need to make your way past and you have to do it safely.

You try to pass yourself off as someone with knowledge of F1 back to day dot and someone who has full control of the English language but in reality you're just some guy who has his view (which is often clouded by fanboism or just plain wrong) and has a thesaurus open next to his computer to make himself seem more intelligent.

You can screach and bounce off the walls all you want, including ad homminen attacks which ought to get you banned from this forum, but the one thing you do not do is validate your position in the matter of Webber versus Kovaleinen.

In fact the above rant ignores the matter entirely.

Love, set and match: ME! :D

[Bagwan]

Letting another driver past in a real contest - lapping at the same pace - is one thing.

But [in the Valencia case] a driver that is moving at 2 seconds quicker per lap [Webber] and to aggravate the situation that slower driver [Kovaleinen] then decides to BRAKE almost 80 metres from the braking point on the straight - as well as moving [Kovaleinen] around is at the minimum obstruction.

It is encumbent upon the GPDA to meet at Silverstone and behind closed doors confront the Finnish driver over his ontrack behavior and result.

If Max was still the head of the FIA I reckon Kovaleinen would have been defending his decisions at the Palace de Concorde this Tuesday!

At the minimum his actions deserve a reprimand.

"2 seconds quicker per lap" .
That's "per lap" , sir .

That's not 2 seconds quicker in that corner . It's a tenth or two .

And , according to Mike Gascoyne , it's the difference in downforce , which gets him down the straights faster , but compromises the corners .
That would be why he must brake earlier than the Bull .

And you and Webber should both know this .

Knowing would be all that was needed to make the pass safely .
The only thing that would stop him would be a solid line down the inside taken by Heikki , which , by the way , if you didn't notice , he didn't take .

He was a sitting duck who put up little or no defense .

[Bagwan]

Welcome to the reality of F1.

Its always been this way and in fact before tv cameras were everywhere and the FIA became policemen it was far more.

Just ask Riccardo Patrese for example - which was an extreme case but has always remained contentious through these past over three decades.

But in the past even the those who became top drivers could relate stories that these days would offend the sensitivities of many fans.

I think the approach to the Webber-Kovaleinen incident reflects significantly the mores of fan culture that is imbued as each generation comes along.

Those for example, "born and raised" as fans in the 80's compared to those of the noughties, will always clash a lot.

Just the way it is.

It has always been thus , that some drivers are seen as dangerous in the clutch , and some are revered for the control that does not endanger one's foes .
The consequences are somewhat different now , and has kept some racing longer than they would have lasted in the "old days" .

I just turned 50 the other day , and I've lost a few heros along the way .
Those are the eyes though which I view Webber .

We'll see Mark's red mist again , and I hope nobody gets hurt .

[Mia 01]

It is extremely disingenuous for you to generalize like that.

And secondly, you do not defend your case but merely shout barbs here. That undermines your point.

Your point is therefore neutralized.

Letting another driver past in a real contest - lapping at the same pace - is one thing.

But [in the Valencia case] a driver that is moving at 2 seconds quicker per lap [Webber] and to aggravate the situation that slower driver [Kovaleinen] then decides to BRAKE almost 80 metres from the braking point on the straight - as well as moving [Kovaleinen] around is at the minimum obstruction.

It is encumbent upon the GPDA to meet at Silverstone and behind closed doors confront the Finnish driver over his ontrack behavior and result.

If Max was still the head of the FIA I reckon Kovaleinen would have been defending his decisions at the Palace de Concorde this Tuesday!

At the minimum his actions deserve a reprimand.

This reminds me of MS actions a couple of races back this year.

The new teams have their right to defend for position, may it be against Fernando or Mark.

[Mia 01]

It has always been thus , that some drivers are seen as dangerous in the clutch , and some are revered for the control that does not endanger one's foes .
The consequences are somewhat different now , and has kept some racing longer than they would have lasted in the "old days" .

I just turned 50 the other day , and I've lost a few heros along the way .
Those are the eyes though which I view Webber .

We'll see Mark's red mist again , and I hope nobody gets hurt .

You are right, but Mark is not alone, the red mist hits other drivers to.

[Rollo]

It is extremely disingenuous for you to generalize like that.


Disingenuous? How?

Disingenuous means to be either not straightforward or not candid. Daniel's statement "Rubbish. If any driver just let another driver past he'd be fired." is so only straightforward that it's downright blunt.

Any driver who would move over to let someone through unless they either had a serious problem or was trying to conserve fuel at the end of the race should be fired. Every point in the World Championship is valuable and potentially worth money when they divvy out the TV rights cash.

There is no reason at all why Heikki should have moved over for Mark. In fact quite the opposite, he had plenty of reason to make his car as wide as possible.

Put simply Mark made a mistake. His mistake is not Hekki's fault.

[Saint Devote]

Disingenuous? How?

Disingenuous means to be either not straightforward or not candid. Daniel's statement "Rubbish. If any driver just let another driver past he'd be fired." is so only straightforward that it's downright blunt.

Any driver who would move over to let someone through unless they either had a serious problem or was trying to conserve fuel at the end of the race should be fired. Every point in the World Championship is valuable and potentially worth money when they divvy out the TV rights cash.

There is no reason at all why Heikki should have moved over for Mark. In fact quite the opposite, he had plenty of reason to make his car as wide as possible.

Put simply Mark made a mistake. His mistake is not Hekki's fault.

You make my point - it is as I describe because the statement is NOT being forthcoming.

Considering all racing situations in a naive or simplistic fashion as you are also doing dismisses any nuances that may exist such as when a car is gaining at 2 seconds quicker a lap [Webber - Kovaleinen] versus similar lap times [Alonso - Kobayashi].

If you cannot fathom the difference then there is nothing I can do about that.

[Saint Devote]

"2 seconds quicker per lap" .
That's "per lap" , sir .

That's not 2 seconds quicker in that corner . It's a tenth or two .

And , according to Mike Gascoyne , it's the difference in downforce , which gets him down the straights faster , but compromises the corners .
That would be why he must brake earlier than the Bull .

And you and Webber should both know this .

Knowing would be all that was needed to make the pass safely .
The only thing that would stop him would be a solid line down the inside taken by Heikki , which , by the way , if you didn't notice , he didn't take .

He was a sitting duck who put up little or no defense .

Webber was moving quicker than Kovaleinen down the straight as well - its neccessary if one is 2 seconds quicker per lap.

I would say that early braking as Kovaleinen did, he was lucky that Webber did not give him a knuckle sandwich in the paddock afterwards. He deserved it.

Different times I guess.

Renault, Mclaren then driver on sale to Lotus Malaysia in the space of only three seasons - says something about a driver. Give it up Heikki, f1 is just not your thing.

[Rollo]

nuances that may exist such as when a car is gaining at 2 seconds quicker a lap [Webber - Kovaleinen] versus similar lap times [Alonso - Kobayashi].

If you cannot fathom the difference then there is nothing I can do about that.

Grant that Kobayashi had a gravy train form up behind him, but the biggest difference is that no-one ran into him.

It is the car that is behind that has the responsibility to ensure that they don't run into the things in front of them. Kovaleinen could have been 30 seconds a lap slower and the onus still would be on Webber to pass safely. Even if Kovaleinen's car suffered a terminal engine failure and blew up, it's still Webber's responsibility to ensure that he doesn't run into the things in front of him.

You are correct, I cannot fathom the difference between the responsibilities of following cars not to hit the cars in front of them and the responsibilities of following cars not to hit the cars in front of them.

[airshifter]

This was not a fight for position in the real sense - they were not lapping at the same pace and Webber was quickly gaining on him - 2 seconds a lap quicker at that point in the race.


It was every bit a fight for position in the real sense. Heiki was ahead of Webber in the race, not being lapped. Though it's apparent that he knew the Red Bull would overtake him and he essentially made things easy, he had no obligation to do so. For anyone to suggest that Kovy should be repremanded or penalized is simply foolish and agains the actual rules that govern F1 racing.




The Kobabyashi-Alonso situation was entirely different. No comparison, as Alonso's tyres were off and Kobayashi's were "on" and they were lapping at a similar pace.


I agree entirely that it is a different situation. Kobay made two passes, one on a two time world champion, yet he didn't run into the back of anyone. And there was a reason he had fresh tires. When Jenson made the right tire choice he was a hero in your eyes. Like it or not, Kobayashi and his team made a similar call and were on the right tires when it counted.

[Daniel]

So you think Heikki should have simply missed his breaking point and conceded the place by going wide onto the run off area just because he was slower than a competitor that is faster? WTF?

That's the bit that makes me LOL. It's not like Heikki could have just braked later or he'd have crashed. He literally had nothing he could do other than brake where he braked before OR to let Webber pass and that wasn't happening....

[DexDexter]

Webber was moving quicker than Kovaleinen down the straight as well - its neccessary if one is 2 seconds quicker per lap.

I would say that early braking as Kovaleinen did, he was lucky that Webber did not give him a knuckle sandwich in the paddock afterwards. He deserved it.

Different times I guess.

Renault, Mclaren then driver on sale to Lotus Malaysia in the space of only three seasons - says something about a driver. Give it up Heikki, f1 is just not your thing.

That's one of the most ridicilous things you've written here. Why on earth should Webber hit Kovalainen because he has a bad car and Webber himself hit him in the back. Webber made a mistake, it's Kovalainen who should take him into sauna and throw a little water on the stones....

[SGWilko]

Rubbish. If any driver just let another driver past he'd be fired.

...or certainly ought to be.

Do you still think Webber should have bent over and took it up the tailpipe in Turkey after your comment above?

You've just very healthily justified Webber's driving in that race.

[MrJan]

St. Devote makes me smile, his posts are so amazingly silly that I can't even bring myself to use the ignore function. Carry on please people, this is good viewing.

Incidentally I still say it was Marks fault. Heikki didn't swerve and he didn't brake overly early, Mark easily had the pace (2 seconds per lap you know) to get by without much effort. A sensible driver would already have been lining up the move rather than grabbing the slipstream, sadly Mark sometimes suffers from the lack of thought that he whinges about so much when other drivers experience it.

[Daniel]

Sgwilko. There's a difference between letting a driver past from another team as Heikki is apparently meant to do, and squeezing your team mate and help cause a big accident.

[Saint Devote]

'Early braking'?
Christian Horner confirmed that he was aware from practice and qualifying that the Lotus breaks up to 80 metres earlier than the fastest teams as it is a requirement of that particular car. How would giving Heikki a 'knuckle sandwich' be justified? Common assault if you ask me.

So you think Heikki should have simply missed his breaking point and conceded the place by going wide onto the run off area just because he was slower than a competitor that is faster? WTF?

I agree that Mark would have breezed past him easily within half a lap but Heikki is well within his rights to fight for position as he has the same entry as any other driver. Mark should have made the pass stick, rather than slamming into the back of the Lotus in the heavy breaking zone. Racing incident, Marks fault, move on.

Rights?
A right is unalienable because it is not bestowed - Kovaleinen compromised the "right" of Webber. He knows full well that a fight on track with an RB6 driven by Webber is a ridiculous notion.

The Finn moved around and Webber did not know what the hell the t127 was going to do and then the inferior car and driver braked as usual and you see nothing wrong with that?!

The rabbbits in the race must look in their mirrors and get out of the way or better still get out of F1.

[Bagwan]

Rights?
A right is unalienable because it is not bestowed - Kovaleinen compromised the "right" of Webber. He knows full well that a fight on track with an RB6 driven by Webber is a ridiculous notion.

The Finn moved around and Webber did not know what the hell the t127 was going to do and then the inferior car and driver braked as usual and you see nothing wrong with that?!

The rabbbits in the race must look in their mirrors and get out of the way or better still get out of F1.

Yeah . you're right .
Webber should have moved right much earlier .
Then he wouldn't have been "compromised" by hitting the back of the Lotus .

Heikki certainly knows full well now that a fight on track with an RB6 driven by Webber is a ridiculous notion .
You tend to remember the big hits .

He'll be asking who's driving that Bull behind him . that's for sure .

[Daniel]

rofl. So basically Kovalainen should have just let him through. Whatever. You're just a troll with a thesaurus and nothing more.

[Saint Devote]

Mark Webber was correct in both instances - Turkey and Valencia. The one incident has nothing to do with the other.

In Turkey he was standing his ground fighting for position and rectifying the crap in Malaysia.

In Valencia a delusional driver believed he was competing against Webber - they were merely in the same race and thinking otherwise would have the fat girls on the cheerleading team.

[MrJan]

Alonso and Massa may as well move aside for the Red Bulls too, obviously that Ferrari isn't as strong. And what the hell was that Sauber doing :angryfire Kobayashi should know better than to overtake a car which is stronger than his.

This isn't even one of those fanboy type arguments that go on where people defend there man on some semblance of an excuse, Mark clearly just drove into the back of someone and then had the bad manners to act surprised and like it wasn't his fault. St Devote you're crazy if you actually believe the bull that you're peddling here.

[Daniel]

Alonso and Massa may as well move aside for the Red Bulls too, obviously that Ferrari isn't as strong. And what the hell was that Sauber doing :angryfire Kobayashi should know better than to overtake a car which is stronger than his.

This isn't even one of those fanboy type arguments that go on where people defend there man on some semblance of an excuse, Mark clearly just drove into the back of someone and then had the bad manners to act surprised and like it wasn't his fault. St Devote you're crazy if you actually believe the bull that you're peddling here.

Rather. Which brings to mind something I once heard, basicaly Mario Andretti went into a McDonalds and ordered a happy meal and didn't get his toy so he said "where the **** is my toy? I want my toy damnit!!!!!"

[SGWilko]

Rather. Which brings to mind something I once heard, basicaly Mario Andretti went into a McDonalds and ordered a happy meal and didn't get his toy so he said "where the **** is my toy? I want my toy damnit!!!!!"

The toy generally has the higher meat content as well..... ;)

[Daniel]

The toy generally has the higher meat content as well..... ;)
I'm sure Jacky Ickx would approve of your post.

[SGWilko]

I'm sure Jacky Ickx would approve of your post.

Am I missing something here? Does Jacky Ickx also think that the average Maccy D is really bad for you?

[Daniel]

Am I missing something here? Does Jacky Ickx also think that the average Maccy D is really bad for you?
A certain person uses meaningless quotes from drivers past and present and I thought I'd get in on some of the action :) Try it, it's a lot of fun.

[Rollo]

Rights?
A right is unalienable because it is not bestowed - Kovaleinen compromised the "right" of Webber. He knows full well that a fight on track with an RB6 driven by Webber is a ridiculous notion.

No. No. NO.

Webber has no right for someone to move over. Webber was racing Kovaleinen for position. If Kovaleinen was a lap down, then he'd be required to move out of the way, but he wasn't, so he isn't.

http://www.fia.com/sport/regulations/common/appendix_h/article04.html
Article 4.2.1)
d) Light Blue flag:
This should normally be waved, as an indication to a driver that he is about to be overtaken. It has different meanings during practice and the race.

During the race :
The flag should normally be shown to a car about to be lapped and, when shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity.

Kovaleinen was not "about to be lapped" and therefore is not required to mvoe over. A "right" is a legal freedom or entitlement. I'm sorry, but because Webber was not lapping Kovaleinen, no entitlement exists, therefore no right exists.

Therefore this statement is materially wrong.


The rabbbits in the race must look in their mirrors and get out of the way or better still get out of F1.


It doesn't matter how slow Kovaleinen was travelling. It is Webber responsibility to ensure that he doesn't run into him from behind.

[truefan72]

A certain person uses meaningless quotes from drivers past and present and I thought I'd get in on some of the action :) Try it, it's a lot of fun.

lol priceless :up:

[truefan72]

No. No. NO.

Webber has no right for someone to move over. Webber was racing Kovaleinen for position. If Kovaleinen was a lap down, then he'd be required to move out of the way, but he wasn't, so he isn't.

http://www.fia.com/sport/regulations/common/appendix_h/article04.html
Article 4.2.1)
d) Light Blue flag:
This should normally be waved, as an indication to a driver that he is about to be overtaken. It has different meanings during practice and the race.

During the race :
The flag should normally be shown to a car about to be lapped and, when shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity.

Kovaleinen was not "about to be lapped" and therefore is not required to mvoe over. A "right" is a legal freedom or entitlement. I'm sorry, but because Webber was not lapping Kovaleinen, no entitlement exists, therefore no right exists.

Therefore this statement is materially wrong.


It doesn't matter how slow Kovaleinen was travelling. It is Webber responsibility to ensure that he doesn't run into him from behind.

exactly,

but a certain poster with all his thesaurus acclaimed command of the language doesn't seem to know the words mea culpa but instead proceeds to dig a bulldozer sized hole even deeper. leaving most bewildered and amused as to how far and outlandish that poster would take an argument.

[CNR]

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-kovalainen-is-comfortable-to-stay-at-lotus/


Heikki Kovalainen will likely be in a Lotus seat in 2011

Kovalainen left McLaren late last year declaring that he was not always treated equally by the famous British team.

BS THEY :grenade:


He would not go into detail about his misgivings with McLaren
LEWIS :imubash: Kovalainen

[Saint Devote]

No. No. NO.

Webber has no right for someone to move over. Webber was racing Kovaleinen for position. If Kovaleinen was a lap down, then he'd be required to move out of the way, but he wasn't, so he isn't.

http://www.fia.com/sport/regulations/common/appendix_h/article04.html
Article 4.2.1)
d) Light Blue flag:
This should normally be waved, as an indication to a driver that he is about to be overtaken. It has different meanings during practice and the race.

During the race :
The flag should normally be shown to a car about to be lapped and, when shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity.

Kovaleinen was not "about to be lapped" and therefore is not required to mvoe over. A "right" is a legal freedom or entitlement. I'm sorry, but because Webber was not lapping Kovaleinen, no entitlement exists, therefore no right exists.

Therefore this statement is materially wrong.


It doesn't matter how slow Kovaleinen was travelling. It is Webber responsibility to ensure that he doesn't run into him from behind.

I dont care what the regulations say.
Kovaleinen should have been aware and gotten out of the way - thats what rabbits do.

He is lucky Mark is not the Aussie AJ or the other AJ.

[Saint Devote]

rofl. So basically Kovalainen should have just let him through. Whatever. You're just a troll with a thesaurus and nothing more.

You are fortunate that the moderators tolerate your insulting behavior and flaunting of the rules by you in their faces - if I were to do anything remotely the same I would get banned.

[Tazio]

You are fortunate that the moderators tolerate your insulting behavior and flaunting of the rules by you in their faces - if I were to do anything remotely the same I would get banned. Any chance of you banning yourself Pilgrim? :idea: :s mokin:

[Rollo]

I dont care what the regulations say.
Kovaleinen should have been aware and gotten out of the way - thats what rabbits do.

Why? What reason can you possibly give for him to move over? If you don't car about the rules, then there is no longer any logical basis to your argument whatsoever.
What relevance do rabbits have to F1 anyway?

Unitam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant. Non sum pisces. :D

[Saint Devote]

Why? What reason can you possibly give for him to move over? If you don't car about the rules, then there is no longer any logical basis to your argument whatsoever.
What relevance do rabbits have to F1 anyway?

Unitam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant. Non sum pisces. :D

Since when do rules and regulations relate to logic? "I was just following orders" is not a valid foundation for anything yet it is what you base your defense of Kovaleinen and attack on Webber upon.

I base my defense of Webber and attack on Kovaleinen on reality, which is objective and therefore supported by logic and reason.

Kovaleinen swings one way then the other and creates the situation. This leads, when he begins to brake, in his inferior car, the quicker driver now confused, to slam into the back of his car.

Kovaleinen may not be one of the top f1 drivers, but he is intelligent enough to know that the RB6 quickly approachiing behind is much faster and he should get out of the way and not pretend that he is racing Mark Webber.

I just wish it was AJ in the car - the little Finn would have had to visit his dentist. Problem is these days that sort of thing is frowned upon and the girls in the FIA would have gone hysterical, screaching nonsense about bringing the sport into disrepute!

[Saint Devote]

Any chance of you banning yourself Pilgrim? :idea: :s mokin:

Always a chance - its the probability that you have to estimate.

[Rollo]

Kovaleinen may not be one of the top f1 drivers, but he is intelligent enough to know that the RB6 quickly approachiing behind is much faster and he should get out of the way and not pretend that he is racing Mark Webber.

But he IS racing Mark Webber and for position. Therefore there is no reason for Kovaleinen to surrender the position at all. It matters not even an iota how fast the car behind is.

So what if the RB6 is faster? So what? This is irrelevant.

Please explain exactly WHY Kovaleinen should have moved out of the way? I demand proof.

[CNR]

You are fortunate that the moderators tolerate your insulting behavior and flaunting of the rules by you in their faces - if I were to do anything remotely the same I would get banned.
same here

[CNR]

But he IS racing Mark Webber and for position. Therefore there is no reason for Kovaleinen to surrender the position at all. It matters not even an iota how fast the car behind is.

So what if the RB6 is faster? So what? This is irrelevant.

Please explain exactly WHY Kovaleinen should have moved out of the way? I demand proof.
god knows why he would try and race mark in a lotus when he could not race lewis in a McLaren

[Daniel]

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-kovalainen-is-comfortable-to-stay-at-lotus/



BS THEY :grenade:


LEWIS :imubash: Kovalainen
What does this have to do with Webber?

[MrJan]

Since when do rules and regulations relate to logic? "I was just following orders" is not a valid foundation for anything yet it is what you base your defense of Kovaleinen and attack on Webber upon.

I base my defense of Webber and attack on Kovaleinen on reality, which is objective and therefore supported by logic and reason.

Kovaleinen swings one way then the other and creates the situation. This leads, when he begins to brake, in his inferior car, the quicker driver now confused, to slam into the back of his car.

Kovaleinen may not be one of the top f1 drivers, but he is intelligent enough to know that the RB6 quickly approachiing behind is much faster and he should get out of the way and not pretend that he is racing Mark Webber.

I just wish it was AJ in the car - the little Finn would have had to visit his dentist. Problem is these days that sort of thing is frowned upon and the girls in the FIA would have gone hysterical, screaching nonsense about bringing the sport into disrepute!

Ha ha!!! Are you actually stupid or are you just good at acting?

The following of the rules is objective, the crap that you are spouting is purely subjective. The fact that you are pretty much the only person on here who believes that Heikki was at fault shows that you are not being objective in any way. Kova didn't chop Mark's nose off and didn't brake test him so it's clearly Webber's fault. Even your claim that HK should move (which is frankly moronic and too ridiculous for words) doesn't absolve Mark. The fact of the matter is that HK didn't yield and Mark drove into the back of him, Kovalainen didn't do anything which Mark wouldn't be (or rather, shouldn't be) expecting so it's downright stupid to try and blame him.

Despite what you may think there is absolutely no logic or reason to what you're suggesting, merely an opinion that Heikki should have moved.

[Daniel]

rofl

[jens]

A certain person uses meaningless quotes from drivers past and present and I thought I'd get in on some of the action :) Try it, it's a lot of fun.

Rolf Stommelen would say there are more exciting ways of having fun - like sitting in the car and pushing the throttle to the floor.
;)

[SGWilko]

I dont care what the regulations say.
Kovaleinen should have been aware and gotten out of the way - thats what rabbits do.

He is lucky Mark is not the Aussie AJ or the other AJ.

Actually, in my experience rabbits dig holes, leave spherical poops everywhere and multiply more often than a maths teacher.

If you think Kovy was in the wrong, seriously, you are looking at F1 in a very @r5e about face way. He is not blameless, but the onus is on the guy overtaking to get the job done safely.

[CNR]

What does this have to do with Webber?

this gose to show that Kovalainen is a crap drive and should not have blocked mark

after all this thread would not be here if it was not for Kovalainen

PS who give a what you post

[Daniel]

Lol

[Ranger]

this gose to show that Kovalainen is a crap drive and should not have blocked mark

after all this thread would not be here if it was not for Kovalainen

PS who give a what you post

That isn't the way it works.

[Saint Devote]

Actually, in my experience rabbits dig holes, leave spherical poops everywhere and multiply more often than a maths teacher.

If you think Kovy was in the wrong, seriously, you are looking at F1 in a very @r5e about face way. He is not blameless, but the onus is on the guy overtaking to get the job done safely.

If the driver in front does not allow the quicker driver arriving behind to react properly, then it is indeed the slower driver's fault.

Just look how Kovaleinen moved around and then he proceeds to brake as usual - this is an idiot.

[SGWilko]

If the driver in front does not allow the quicker driver arriving behind to react properly, then it is indeed the slower driver's fault.

Just look how Kovaleinen moved around and then he proceeds to brake as usual - this is an idiot.

Surely, you mean 'look how Kovalainen defended'.

If the Lotus was 'that much slower' Webber had no business being tuckep up so close behind - contact would be (and was) inevitable.

Kovy did not weave, just cleverly positioned the car....

[MrJan]

If the driver in front does not allow the quicker driver arriving behind to react properly, then it is indeed the slower driver's fault.

Just look how Kovaleinen moved around and then he proceeds to brake as usual - this is an idiot.

http://forums.tellymix.co.uk/images/smilies/aniLaughingSmiley.gif
http://4pfotenforum.iphpbb3.com/forum/images/smilies/big_rofl.gif

Stop it! Please stop it, I can't take it any more
http://4pfotenforum.iphpbb3.com/forum/images/smilies/big_rofl.gif

Driver in front protects his line and then brakes as usual and you blame him? You're a genuine window licker aren't you? What part of your messed up head thinks that HK should have outbraked himself to let Webber through? Kovalainen isn't the idiot, I think that it might be you.

[Bagwan]

Ste. Devote is right here .

You don't do yourself any favours getting too close to Webber .
Don't use your brakes in front of him , even if you apply them at the same braking point all race long . He'll hit you .
Don't try to defend at all . Just get out of the way .

The best strategy , if Webber has the Ste.'s blessing like this , is to let him by , and then stick to him , and let him clear your way for you .

Then , settle for second place , as a stab down the inside will only have him take you out , too .
Actually , I guess you'd have to settle for third place , as Webber only loses it when he's behind his team-mate .

[SGWilko]

Ste. Devote is right here .

You don't do yourself any favours getting too close to Webber .
Don't use your brakes in front of him , even if you apply them at the same braking point all race long . He'll hit you .
Don't try to defend at all . Just get out of the way .

The best strategy , if Webber has the Ste.'s blessing like this , is to let him by , and then stick to him , and let him clear your way for you .

Then , settle for second place , as a stab down the inside will only have him take you out , too .
Actually , I guess you'd have to settle for third place , as Webber only loses it when he's behind his team-mate .

Don't use your brakes in front of him? You sound more like the other nutter with every post.

[MrJan]

Don't use your brakes in front of him? You sound more like the other nutter with every post.

I believe that Baggy was being slightly ironic ;)

[ShiftingGears]

I think if all the drivers listened to flracing with his perfect racing line invention we'd never have any accidents ever.

[MrJan]

I think if all the drivers listened to flracing with his perfect racing line invention we'd never have any accidents ever.

I miss him, I'm genuinely looking forward to hearing more about his idea on the racing line and seeing where he gets with it.

[Retro Formula 1]

11 pages on an incident that is about as clear cut as you will ever see.

Driver #1 makes a mistake and goes up the arse of driver #2. Unless driver #2 was brake testing him, which he wasn't, then it's driver #1's fault 100%.

That's all there is to it.

Mark made a mistake and claiming that Kovy should have rolled over and given up his position is madness, lunacy, insane.

:rolleyes:

[Bagwan]

I believe that Baggy was being slightly ironic ;)

No , as a matter of fact , I was being serious , to a point .

And , point being , stay the hell away from Webber .

If you have him behind you , and you dare to brake when you did for all the previous laps , he'll hit you from behind , citing the fact that you braked too early as the reason he hit you .

If the SVRMG("Sebastian Vettel Red Mist Generator") is operating properly , Mark expects the road to clear in front of him automatically .
The SVRMG uses the newest DC ("Desperation Chip") technology , to allow the driver to really fly through the field .

[SGWilko]

I believe that Baggy was being slightly ironic ;)

definitely something ronic, but not i!

[Bagwan]

It seems both Red Bull drivers have difficulty passing other cars if recent events are anything to go by.

No , it's working just fine .

Like the new "Pass me" rear wing , the SVRMG also is activated when a car enters inside the one second proximity behind Mark .

[SGWilko]

No , it's working just fine .

Like the new "Pass me" rear wing , the SVRMG also is activated when a car enters inside the one second proximity behind Mark .

I thought of a couple more acronyms.

Webber And Newey Know Everyones Racing

Vettel Always Gets In Newey's Automobile

Oh, this really is such fun.......

[SGWilko]

I thought of a couple more acronyms.

Webber And Newey Know Everyones Racing

Vettel Always Gets In Newey's Automobile

Oh, this really is such fun.......

or we could have;

Webber And Lotus Team End Reluctantly

Vettel Is Cooking Two Orrible Raw Yabbi's

[Tazio]

The SVRMG uses the newest DC ("Desperation Chip") technology I love nicknames "Bags", and Fictitious acronyms. But if you are going to excel, you need to go "all in” :p :
That sentence should read:

The SVRMG uses the newest DC ("Sponge Bob Chip") technology :dork:

[Bagwan]

I love nicknames "Bags", and Fictitious acronyms. But if you are going to excel, you need to go "all in” :p :
That sentence should read:

The SVRMG uses the newest DC ("Sponge Bob Chip") technology :dork:

Just glad it didn't go over everyone's head , Taz .

[airshifter]

If the driver in front does not allow the quicker driver arriving behind to react properly, then it is indeed the slower driver's fault.

Just look how Kovaleinen moved around and then he proceeds to brake as usual - this is an idiot.

Even if you ignore the rules as you are, this statement makes no sense in this instance. Kovaleinen did move, and Webber followed. Had Webber stayed in place when Kovy made the move to the left he would have driven right past him and had plenty of time to get back on the line before braking for the corner.

There was plenty of track, and Webber first followed him and then ran into him. And since none of us governs F1 the actual rules are set by the governing body, which has no rule saying Heikki should have moved over for Mark.

The only idiot was the driver racing for position who apparently like yourself didn't care what the rules said, and due to that attitude destroyed a very good race for himself and his team.

[Daniel]

Even if you ignore the rules as you are, this statement makes no sense in this instance. Kovaleinen did move, and Webber followed. Had Webber stayed in place when Kovy made the move to the left he would have driven right past him and had plenty of time to get back on the line before braking for the corner.

There was plenty of track, and Webber first followed him and then ran into him. And since none of us governs F1 the actual rules are set by the governing body, which has no rule saying Heikki should have moved over for Mark.

The only idiot was the driver racing for position who apparently like yourself didn't care what the rules said, and due to that attitude destroyed a very good race for himself and his team.

Please stop trying to be sensible and reasonable :laugh:

[Tazio]

You guys are really naive.
Kovy knew Chopper was still not up to speed on the new rear wing stall device. He baited him into his slipstream locked on like a tractor beam and sucked him into the Death Star! :vader:
Someone is someone's father! :ninja: :confused:

[Saint Devote]

Its just very difficult when there is such a big difference in performance. When you see these slow cars you are second guessing where they will move out of the way, and then they move into the wrong position.

Virgin, HRT and Lotus are not racing Red Bull and the others - they just happen to be in the same 200 mile race.

[Rollo]

Its just very difficult when there is such a big difference in performance. When you see these slow cars you are second guessing where they will move out of the way, and then they move into the wrong position.

Virgin, HRT and Lotus are not racing Red Bull and the others - they just happen to be in the same 200 mile race.

Kovalainen was racing the Red Bull for position, and he was ahead. Ergo at that point in the race Webber's Red Bull was doing worse than Kovalainen's Lotus.

Kovalainen didn't "move into the wrong position" he was bang in the middle of the track, which effectively stole the driving line and made him difficult to pass. That isn't the wrong position, but rather is very proper indeed.

[Saint Devote]

Kovalainen was racing the Red Bull for position, and he was ahead. Ergo at that point in the race Webber's Red Bull was doing worse than Kovalainen's Lotus.

Kovalainen didn't "move into the wrong position" he was bang in the middle of the track, which effectively stole the driving line and made him difficult to pass. That isn't the wrong position, but rather is very proper indeed.

So a Lotus 127 was contesting position with a Red Bull RB06 :rotflmao:

The Lotus was in the way and while in the process of being overtaken was being obstructive - moving around was exactly what he was doing - and Lewis Hamilton's comment about these slow cars is 100 percent accurate.

Kovaleinen may have not intended to get in the way but he did.

"Rabbits" as Niki Lauda calls the slow cars, do not belong in f1. Unfortunately this is the result of the FIA-FOTA war that was in full swing a year ago.

And to make it worse these slow cars in Monte Carlo were slower than the GP2 cars.

Quality and not quantity is important.

And Kovaleinen STILL deserves a knuckle sandwich which had he done the same to Aussie AJ, he would have received.

[Rollo]

So a Lotus 127 was contesting position with a Red Bull RB06 :rotflmao:

Yes. A Lotus 127 was contesting position with a Red Bull RB06; namely 17th position and holding it.



"Rabbits" as Niki Lauda calls the slow cars, do not belong in f1. Unfortunately this is the result of the FIA-FOTA war that was in full swing a year ago.

Quality and not quantity is important.

Oh really? What defines a "slow car"? One that falls outside the 107% rule? Because if that was the case then all 24 cars were inside that and therefore there are none. Maybe it's a team which is not run by a factory? In which case, McLaren should be kicked out, as should Williams.

Besides which, what authority does Niki have anyway?
And if in fact Niki did refer to them as "rabbits" then why does google return precisely zero quotes for this? Are you making things up?

[Daniel]

When you see these slow cars you are second guessing where they will move out of the way

You guessed wrong.

[truefan72]

Yes. A Lotus 127 was contesting position with a Red Bull RB06; namely 17th position and holding it.



Oh really? What defines a "slow car"? One that falls outside the 107% rule? Because if that was the case then all 24 cars were inside that and therefore there are none. Maybe it's a team which is not run by a factory? In which case, McLaren should be kicked out, as should Williams.

Besides which, what authority does Niki have anyway?
And if in fact Niki did refer to them as "rabbits" then why does google return precisely zero quotes for this? Are you making things up?

what do you think http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif

[MrJan]

So a Lotus 127 was contesting position with a Red Bull RB06 :rotflmao:

That's the idea of a motor race you numpty. There are an awful lot of cars this season that won't win a race so I can only assume that you would like there to be only 3 teams (seeing as all the others are so slow).

You're opinion on this is bafflingly stupid, at least the Aussies are just defending Webbo because they're partisan, you on the other hand have no real reasoning besides some crazy notion and a general desire to argue with the majority.

[Daniel]

When I see threads like this I often think to myself, what would some driver who hasn't raced for 30 or 40 years think or do? :laugh:

[Saint Devote]

Do you really think this is validating your arguement in the slightest? :confused:

The Lotus was slower than a GP2 car at Monaco but since then updates have brought the car forward and well within the 107% which is expected. Whether the Lotus is slow or not, its beside the point because Heikki was not being lapped by Mark due to being slow, and was in position. Its statements like the one above which contradicts your claim of being a purist, and once again shows that your opinions change like the wind depending on what topic is being discussed.

You claim to be a great fan of Williams and often bring up Alan Jones in debate although highly irrelevent to most topics. Williams once upon a time were a team who purchased a very uncompetitve March 761 and in their first season in 1977 failed to score a single championship point. The car was appalling, yet they were allowed to develop as a team and learn by their second season where they slowly caught up with the pack.

My point is, every new team that has entered the sport from scratch has been uncompetitive. If you were indeed a purist, you would enjoy seeing a team like Lotus build into a sucessfull winning team and have the patience to do so. Afterall its only their debut season is it not? I get the impression you enjoy disagreeing with people to such a degree, you forget what you've said previously and contradict yourself in hilarious fashion more often than not.

I dont care about your "impressions" or your beliefs relative to me, they are not relevant - this is a discussion and nothing to do with it.

This is not 1977 - F1 is totally different from those days in every single way and Williams recognizes that.

Whether being lapped or not, it changes nothing - slow is slow.

My points stand and it is revealing to see how many here have stood against Mark Webber and those who support his position such as Lewis Hamilton :vader:

[Saint Devote]

That's the idea of a motor race you numpty. There are an awful lot of cars this season that won't win a race so I can only assume that you would like there to be only 3 teams (seeing as all the others are so slow).

You're opinion on this is bafflingly stupid, at least the Aussies are just defending Webbo because they're partisan, you on the other hand have no real reasoning besides some crazy notion and a general desire to argue with the majority.

I dont care about a person's nationality - why would someone defend a driver IF they were in the wrong just because of nationality?

[MrJan]

I dont care about a person's nationality - why would someone defend a driver IF they were in the wrong just because of nationality?

Some people are extremely partisan and think that their countrymen can do no wrong.

It's certainly less baffling than defending someone who was in the wrong when you have no genuine reason for doing so.

[Daniel]

I agree its not 1977 and the fact you couldn't see the irony of me using a 33 year old instance is frankly laughable.

Hear hear. The best birthday present I could get apart from my niece being born yesterday would be to have this troll banned for life.

[Tazio]

I dont care about a person's nationality - why would someone defend a driver IF they were in the wrong just because of nationality?Please leave! :monkee:

[Bagwan]

Wow , that Saint sure can get things stirred up in here .

Don't anyone get too twisted up over the ol' devoted one here .

He's got his opinion , and it's not looking like it's gonna change .



And , he's right on one thing ; that Heikki should have moved out of the way .
If he had , he wouldn't have been hit .

But , he's wrong on who deserved the knuckle sandwich .

[pino]

Amen