UK Budget

[christophulus]

So, we have the Coalition's emergency budget. Key points:

VAT to rise from 17.5% to 20% from 4 January next year[/*:m:oj7bmtpd]
Income tax allowance to rise by £1,000[/*:m:oj7bmtpd]
No rise in alcohol, tobacco or fuel duties[/*:m:oj7bmtpd]
Child benefits frozen for three years; medical examination for new disabilities living allowance claimants[/*:m:oj7bmtpd]
Link between basic state pension and earnings to be restored[/*:m:oj7bmtpd]
Capital gains tax for higher rate tax payers to rise to 28%[/*:m:oj7bmtpd]
Two-year pay freeze for public sector workers earning more than £21,000[/*:m:oj7bmtpd]
Levy imposed on banks[/*:m:oj7bmtpd]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/politics/live_event/

Good? Bad? Indifferent?

[Mark]

We all expected the 20% VAT rise. What is a surprise is how long they are leaving it before it hits.

[slinkster]

The bit I was most interested in are the further proposed cutbacks in government department budgets... My job could be on the line... :(

[71minus2]

The bit I was most interested in are the further proposed cutbacks in government department budgets... My job could be on the line... :(

I lost my civil service job in 2008 with the last round of cuts. Unfortunately the rot is so deep rooted in the public sector that changes need to be made primarily at management level as, when i worked there, we had 3 managers doing the work of 1. A criminal waste of money.

I hope you job remains safe.

[Daniel]

Working in local govt I have to say management are a huge waste of space too.

[slinkster]

I lost my civil service job in 2008 with the last round of cuts. Unfortunately the rot is so deep rooted in the public sector that changes need to be made primarily at management level as, when i worked there, we had 3 managers doing the work of 1. A criminal waste of money.

I hope you job remains safe.

Thank you! Me too!

[GridGirl]

The rise in the personal allowance was made to look as though they are giving us something back. I suppose it's a larger than usual increase. I don't think that many people will factor in the fact that we usually get a personal allowance rise each April but this year the government didn't do it. So we're only getting a reduced increase when you factor in the normal expected increase. Better than nothing I suppose.

I'll seriously think about making larger purchases before the VAT increase comes into effect.

[Sonic]

Well it could have been worse. My family is probably £400 a year worse off but we live within our means anyway so we don't need the extra.

However I shan't be buying that new car I had planned next year and if a few thousand others do the same the growth could be stunted.

[BDunnell]

I don't really know whether the measures will be bad or good. What I do know is that they aren't what I voted for when I made my decision to support a certain party.

[Alfa Fan]

Tough. You voted for your local MP...nothing more. And what alternative do you propose? PR? Then you will NEVER get what you voted for!

[Daniel]

Tough. You voted for your local MP...nothing more. And what alternative do you propose? PR? Then you will NEVER get what you voted for!
WTF?

Ben is saying that he voted for who he voted for on the basis that they wouldn't support these sort of measures.

It's nice to see you're still around to tell people what to think and feel, god only knows what we'd do without you :)

[BDunnell]

Tough. You voted for your local MP...nothing more. And what alternative do you propose? PR? Then you will NEVER get what you voted for!

I vote for my local MP not least because he is a member of a party whose wider policies I support. He is an outstanding local MP as well, but in this case his ability on that level is irrelevant, because he represents a party which has blatantly gone back on its policies as outlined in its manifesto and election literature. With respect, your view seems a little confused.

[Alfa Fan]

He could always rebel....

I'm not confused in the slightest....just fed up of the "this isn't what we voted for" when it patently is.

[Mark]

Even if you take the parties out of the equation. There are many people who voted for Liberal Democrat MPs on the position that they would not bring in any VAT increases. Yet, here we are with those same MPs backing the budget that will bring it in.

Vince Cable looked quite uncomfortable on Channel 4 news last night, and as well he might!

[Hondo]

I don't really know whether the measures will be bad or good. What I do know is that they aren't what I voted for when I made my decision to support a certain party.

Sooner or later it comes down to the survival of the party itself as an entity, and not the ideals that created the party or those who support those ideals. I'm not trying to start a fight here Ben, that's just the way it works, everywhere.

Now that the Tea Party is gaining strength over here the Republicans want the Tea Party to support the Republican ticket to avoid a split ticket. If anything, to put their ideals back in power, the Republicans should fold the tent and support the Tea Party. But they won't because it's about keeping the Party alive and those that run it alive. The parties themselves have become a big business of their own.

[Hondo]

Economic tip for the Brits: You brought back an updated Mini-Cooper and it seems to be doing better than anyone thought it would. I see more of them every day. It's amusing to be driving in Texas and seeing a cowboy hat poking up from a convertable Mini.

Now is the time to strike the death blow. Bring back the sleek, beautiful Triumph Spitfire 1500 in a package that will comptete with a Mazda Miata and rule the world. Make driving fun again. I'll buy one, if I don't weaken and buy a Mini first.

[BDunnell]

I'm not confused in the slightest....just fed up of the "this isn't what we voted for" when it patently is.

How so, given that one of the parties in the coalition campaigned against the other party in the coalition in part on the basis of the latter's intended position on VAT?

By your flawed reckoning, no-one should ever object to any policies enacted on a national level.

[BDunnell]

Sooner or later it comes down to the survival of the party itself as an entity, and not the ideals that created the party or those who support those ideals.

In the process, the party I'm talking about will destroy itself, you wait and see.

[Hondo]

In the process, the party I'm talking about will destroy itself, you wait and see.

If it destroys itself, another, fresher one will rise in it's place but that third party will never have the power of the traditional Conservative and Labour Parties.

I think it was Lenin that coined the term "useful idiots" when referring to those, due to lifestyle or beliefs, or both, found themselves as players forced to the fringe of "normal" society. These people had no interest in politics or a very narrow interest focused on their own desires. Lenin and others learned to bring these people together so the leadership could benefit from the power of numbers to get themselves in the big game and once in, to sacrifice whatever they needed to in order to stay in the game. The Liberal Democrats were never likely to be a major party because the ideals they represent go against the core beliefs of the voting majority. Too much fringe. The only sure way to come to power is to breed your way in. If you get every Liberal Democrat family to breed 10 children and raise them LD and they raise theirs LD sooner or later you overwhelm the opposition on sheer numbers. As stupid as that may sound to you, it's being done.

Obama got elected, in part, by a bunch of people that have no interest in politics at all. Don't know who their senator is, don't know who their governor is, don't know where the president lives. They knew they were voting for a black man that was going to make their house payments and get them free stuff. Now that he's in, those people are a liability and they are still making their own house payments.

It's just another business. The only difference is they don't have to make a profit. They can demand whatever funding they want.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Economic tip for the Brits: You brought back an updated Mini-Cooper and it seems to be doing better than anyone thought it would. I see more of them every day. It's amusing to be driving in Texas and seeing a cowboy hat poking up from a convertable Mini.

Now is the time to strike the death blow. Bring back the sleek, beautiful Triumph Spitfire 1500 in a package that will comptete with a Mazda Miata and rule the world. Make driving fun again. I'll buy one, if I don't weaken and buy a Mini first.

Only the Germans can bring back British cars :dozey:

[Alfa Fan]

How so, given that one of the parties in the coalition campaigned against the other party in the coalition in part on the basis of the latter's intended position on VAT?

By your flawed reckoning, no-one should ever object to any policies enacted on a national level.

But that's what a coalition is. We (as in the electorate) voted for a hung parliament, the result of which was this coalition.

I give you more credit than to be naive to the fact that by voting lib dem there was a reasonable chance your representative would end up as part of a Conservative-Lib Dem coalition government.

Let's be clear, no party actually ruled out an increase in VAT, its just not a very popular thing to shout about...and actually Labour had long term plans for it to go up to 18.5%

[Daniel]

But that's what a coalition is. We (as in the electorate) voted for a hung parliament, the result of which was this coalition.

I'm sure Ben is well aware of what a coalition is. The fact of the matter is that if you vote for party x on the basis that they are/aren't going to do something and they support another party in doing the opposite then you've got the right to be annoyed.

[Alfa Fan]

That sounds like advocating for dictatorship. Modern politics is all about negotiation. Should we turn to a PR system in the future, its highly likely no single parties manifesto will ever be delivered again.

[Daniel]

Wtf? Expecting parties not to backtrack on major promises is advocating democracy? What the?

[Alfa Fan]

Right there had to be a coalition to have a working majority. We agree that right?

We also have a number of different political parties with different manifestos.

Therefore the only way of forming a coalition government is by having some compromises on two or more of the parties manifestos?

[Daniel]

Ummmmm. Now where did advocating dictatorships come into it?

Just realised my mistake above too. Doh.

[Mark]

If effect of course what we have at the moment is that neither the Tories or the Liberal Democrats are effectively in power. We have a new temporary situation of "The Coalition". In the field I work in we'd call that a Virtual Organisation!

[Hondo]

Call it what you want. Where's my Spitfire?

[Daniel]

In Australia the coallition govts worked far better when the Liberals and National parties were together because their political viewpoints are far close than the lib dems and conservatives.

[wedge]

But that's what a coalition is. We (as in the electorate) voted for a hung parliament, the result of which was this coalition.

I give you more credit than to be naive to the fact that by voting lib dem there was a reasonable chance your representative would end up as part of a Conservative-Lib Dem coalition government.

Let's be clear, no party actually ruled out an increase in VAT, its just not a very popular thing to shout about...and actually Labour had long term plans for it to go up to 18.5%

18.5% is better than 20%. Increase in NI contributions over £20k or whatever it was was a fairer system than increasing VAT to 20%.

Lib Dems campaigned on the "VAT bombshell". Voters had no say on the coalition negotiations.

Compromise I fully accept but not at the expense at fairness.

[Hondo]

And your definition of "fairness" is what?

[BDunnell]

But that's what a coalition is. We (as in the electorate) voted for a hung parliament, the result of which was this coalition.

No, we didn't vote for a hung parliament. That was not an option on the ballot paper. We voted for individual parties. The result was a coalition. There is a big, big difference.



I give you more credit than to be naive to the fact that by voting lib dem there was a reasonable chance your representative would end up as part of a Conservative-Lib Dem coalition government.

I did not vote for them on that basis. I make my choice on the basis of specific policies and the quality of the candidate, while ruling out voting Conservative at any time. What other criteria am I to use?

[BDunnell]

That sounds like advocating for dictatorship. Modern politics is all about negotiation.

So, those of us who do not believe in coalition/pluralist politics are 'advocating dictatorship', are we? I do not feel that coalitions are a desirable thing at all. They only take place in mainland Europe as a matter of expediency, when one party has failed to achieve an outright majority and requires the support of other parties, and never on the basis of the national interest. Look at the current German coalition — it's a disaster, and I'm sure most voters there would prefer a strong majority government.


Should we turn to a PR system in the future, its highly likely no single parties manifesto will ever be delivered again.

I am not actually in favour of PR.

[Hazell B]

18.5% is better than 20%.

Daft as it sounds, I'm in favour of it being 20% even though I'm in business myself.

17.5% was a doddle to work out in a rush at auctions and in the wholesaler, and 20% is easier even than that. 18.5% would be a horrible figure to work out in my head in a rush (say during bidding at auction) and would confuse the hell out of everyday people. As it is the vast majority can't work out how much something is either minus it's VAT content or plus VAT.

Anyway, it's a tiny bit on most things and frankly when it does change I bet you won't even notice on most purchases that you don't already know to be VATable.

[Dave B]

Daft as it sounds, I'm in favour of it being 20% even though I'm in business myself.

17.5% was a doddle to work out in a rush at auctions and in the wholesaler, and 20% is easier even than that. 18.5% would be a horrible figure to work out in my head in a rush (say during bidding at auction) and would confuse the hell out of everyday people. As it is the vast majority can't work out how much something is either minus it's VAT content or plus VAT.

Anyway, it's a tiny bit on most things and frankly when it does change I bet you won't even notice on most purchases that you don't already know to be VATable.
And as an added bonus businesses will likely have more time to do the maths as they'll have less customers to worry about. :s

I cannot fathom how this Conservative government - and yes I know it's nominally a coalition but it's not as if the LibDems have any actual power in this - are escaping scrutiny for the decisions in that budget which will cost literally hundreds of thousands of jobs in both the public and private sectors.

Labour need to urgently bring forward their leadership election so that they can get on with the job of being an effective opposition, because right now the country's being rogered from behind.

[Daniel]

And as an added bonus businesses will likely have more time to do the maths as they'll have less customers to worry about. :s

I cannot fathom how this Conservative government - and yes I know it's nominally a coalition but it's not as if the LibDems have any actual power in this - are escaping scrutiny for the decisions in that budget which will cost literally hundreds of thousands of jobs in both the public and private sectors.

Labour need to urgently bring forward their leadership election so that they can get on with the job of being an effective opposition, because right now the country's being rogered from behind.
Double dip recession here we come! :)

Well at least I won't need to worry about going to work for a while if my contract doesn't get extended in September :mark:

[GridGirl]

Surely, if your work contract might not get extended you should start worrying about it sooner rather than later. Why dip into your savings if you can look for something as soon as possible? :s

[Daniel]

Wow, I wouldn't have thought to actually look for a job. Jobs around here are difficult to find at the best of times and the public sector are the biggest employers and if public sector jobs go in great numbers then the region is screwed.

[GridGirl]

Double dip recession here we come! :)

Well at least I won't need to worry about going to work for a while......

Well your own wording made it sound as though you were going to wait to find out about your contract and then look look for a new job. :p