IndyCar returning to New Hampshire [Archive]

Mr. Mister

20th June 2010, 19:28

I believe Baltimore is in place of Edmonton. New Hampshire could come in place of Kansas, as it seems as though ISC are not going to renew their IndyCar races (including Watkins Glen) and the São Paulo race is confirmed as having the first Sunday of May (Kansas' slot this year) in 2011.

Hopefully, though, NHMS is just an addition to the schedule and not replacing anything. I'm not a fan of oval racing by any means, but I do love the flat, shorter ovals such as NHMS or Milwaukee and the series needs diversity as oval racing has a broad appeal.

I certainly hope it's true. I'm not far from Loudon and this has potential to be my first non-NASCAR race attended in person...especially if they run with the Whelen Modifieds!

garyshell

20th June 2010, 19:36

Yeah, unfortunately you might be right. But if we have to lose another oval, let's hope the Baltimore race takes care of that loss and this New Hampshire race will bring the oval count back up.

Huh??? -1 oval + 1 street course +1 oval still = 1 oval, no increase in oval count at all.

Gary

TURN3

20th June 2010, 19:39

Way to go Milka...mixing it up again!

TURN3

20th June 2010, 19:45

Woops, forgot to switch threads. Sorry!

e2mtt

20th June 2010, 21:44

This is good news, I always liked New Hampshire. (Actually I really liked racing on it in Indycar (the PC game))

I'll be really disappointed if they lose Watkins Glen.

DanicaFan

20th June 2010, 21:56

Huh??? -1 oval + 1 street course +1 oval still = 1 oval, no increase in oval count at all.

Gary

We are looking at it different...lol

If Baltimore takes away an oval, we are down 1 for next year, and if New Hampshire comes aboard, it goes back up, so technically ,the count goes up. ;)

garyshell

20th June 2010, 22:55

We are looking at it different...lol

If Baltimore takes away an oval, we are down 1 for next year, and if New Hampshire comes aboard, it goes back up, so technically ,the count goes up. ;)

The RACE count overall maybe, but not the oval count. It stays the same. With that sort of "new" math, I now understand why each week you think Danica will win.

Gary

GRW1983

20th June 2010, 23:06

I'll be really disappointed if they lose Watkins Glen, as along with Barber, it's the best road course on the current IndyCar schedule. Also, if New Hampshire is confirmed for 2011 along with Baltimore, I still think we will only have 18 races next year with an even 9/9 split. Remember, if Milwaukee had ran this year we would have had an even 9/9 split. So, you could argue New Hampshire replaces Milwaukee and the remaining ovals stay so that you have 9 ovals next year. The addition of Baltimore would see the road/street course count go up to 10, but if they wanted 18 races then 1 would have to go. Personally, I'd rather see Edmonton go than Watkins Glen. Eventually, in 2012, I think the schedule will expand to 20 races with an even 10 oval/10 road-street course split. Hopefully, they can find a spot for Road America in their somewhere, as that is by far the best road course in the US.

Mr. Mister

21st June 2010, 00:10

Sorry for confusion over my comment about Watkins Glen...as far as I know (not very far), ISC will honor their existing contracts but will not renew them. Therefore, the series will gradually lose ISC tracks over the next few years rather than just pull all five or six that they have at the end of the year. I am not sure how long the Glen is contracted for, but I seem to recall only one ISC track would be lost at the end of 2010 (I was guessing Kansas as the May slot went to São Paulo, but they may just move Kansas to later in the season).

I'm under the impression that Baltimore is replacing Edmonton. I'm not sure what NHMS would replace, but Homestead or Kansas would be logical guesses if NHMS has to replace anything (it may not).

champcarray

21st June 2010, 17:43

I would love to attend a race at NHIS again. My wife and I attended the CART races there in 1992-1995 and loved 'em! We were extremely disappointed when the owner sided with Tony G and, like most AOWR fans in the region, didn't attend the IRL races there. Assuming the rumors are true, we'll be back in the paddock and stands in '11.

By the way, why didn't Cavin mention the many CART races that were held at NHIS? Why do so many in the media continue to treat CART and the CCWS like they never happened? Some very big names -- Rahal, Mansell, and Al Unser Jr -- won races there.

harvick#1

21st June 2010, 18:04

But it is likely replacing another oval.

good, get rid of one of the crappy full throttle ovals and add in New Hampshire since its a drivers track over those lame 1.5 cookie cutters

MDS

21st June 2010, 19:52

Well, there are certainly some signs pointing to New Hampshire returning to the schedule, apparently there is some beef going on between SMI and the tow officials per local news outlets.

NHMS is asking Loudon to reduce its price tag for June's upcoming race from $170,000 to $65,000."No, we're not prepared to do that," said Loudon Selectman Roger Maxfield. "The answer is no, we won't."Maxfield said he thinks $170,000 to cover an influx of 100,000 people is reasonable, as is Fiske's hourly rate."He's also in control of 80 full-time officers, so that's a large detail," Maxfield said.NHMS has suggested cutting 38 police officers from its camp grounds and replacing them with private security guards supported by a few officers.Fiske said that plan isn't in the best interest of public safety."The crime is consistent with a city of that size," he said. "We have alleged rapes and assaults, let alone the DWIs."http://www.wmur.com/news/23938743/detail.html

It seems plausible that they are planning on moving the NASCAR date to Kentucky and replacing the June date with an ICS race, or using the IRL event to spread the cost out between three instead of two events.

Also, I haven't heard anything about Baltimore replacing Edmonton. City officials are pressing forward, but Northlands won't be the organizer, it will probably be either Green or Lanigan taking over. Watkins Glen is at the end of its contract, and they have been less than productive about promoting the event.

booger

21st June 2010, 20:04

I see all these new venues and haven't heard a thing about the possibility of RA being back in IC sked. NASCAR Nationwide (the 2nd tier NASCAR) drew about 60k fans on Saturday. We need IC back there too. Comments?

SarahFan

21st June 2010, 20:12

Mark in Oshawa

22nd June 2010, 09:03

Mark in Oshawa

22nd June 2010, 09:04

GRW1983

22nd June 2010, 12:26

According to Curt Cavin, New Hampshire & Baltimore will be on next year's schedule. It seems IndyCar are, once again, aiming for 17 races. So it seems we are gaining an oval and a street track to take the count to 19, but we'll have to lose 2 races to accomodate New Hampshire & Baltimore. I fear we'll lose Watkins Glen as that is at the end of it's current contract for Baltimore and maybe a Kansas or Homestead to accomodate New Hampshire.

Potentially, next season would still be an 8-oval, 9-road/street course split with Indy, Texas, Iowa, Chicago, Kentucky, Motegi, New Hampshire and Kansas/Homestead as the ovals and Brazil, St.Pete, Barber, Long Beach, Toronto, Edmonton, Mid-Ohio, Sonoma & Baltimore as the road/street courses. There are also rumours of returns to Phoenix, Las Vegas, Milwaukee & Fontana as a return to IndyCar's roots.

For 2012, I'd like to see the series expand to 20 races with an even 10/10 split of races. The 10 ovals could be 4 short ovals of Iowa, Milwaukee, New Hampshire & Phoenix, 4 x 1.5 mile ovals of Chicago/Kentucky, Las Vegas, Motegi & Texas & 2 x 2.5 mile super-speedways of Indy & Fontana.

The 5 street tracks could be Baltimore, Brazil, Long Beach, St.Pete & Toronto. The 5 road courses could be Barber, Cleveland, Edmonton, Mid-Ohio & Road America. From the current list you'd lose Chicago/Kentucky, Homestead, Kansas & Sonoma. Of course, this is just my take on things but I think this schedule could work. It would give lots of variety on the ovals as well as having a good mix on the road/street/airport tracks.

DBell

22nd June 2010, 13:17

As for New Hampshire, about bloody time they added it. Best oval race I ever saw in terms of sheer balls and driving talent was in 92 with Tracy and Mansell virtually lapping the field in their own private duel carving in and out of traffic...

That was a terrific race. But is NH the same track it was in 92? Didn't it get "Nascarized", i.e. more banking, a few years back after the deaths of Adam Petty and others? I always like my ovals more on the flatter side for ow racing.

DBell

22nd June 2010, 13:24

By the way, why didn't Cavin mention the many CART races that were held at NHIS? Why do so many in the media continue to treat CART and the CCWS like they never happened? Some very big names -- Rahal, Mansell, and Al Unser Jr -- won races there.

Didn't you get the memo? Nothing before 1996 existed and Scott Dixon is the winningest driver in Indy car history. I think Jag said it in another post, the winner rights the history, except in this case it's more like the survivor. It's a giant pile of crap, but that's the way it is.

harvick#1

22nd June 2010, 18:40

That was a terrific race. But is NH the same track it was in 92? Didn't it get "Nascarized", i.e. more banking, a few years back after the deaths of Adam Petty and others? I always like my ovals more on the flatter side for ow racing.

no, NHIS is still a flat track, there were rumors they were gonna repave NHIS into a progessive banked track, but thankfully, it never went through....yet

Lee Roy

22nd June 2010, 19:32

no, NHIS is still a flat track, there were rumors they were gonna repave NHIS into a progessive banked track, but thankfully, it never went through....yet

In 2002, in an effort to increase competitive racing, the track's corners were turned into a progressive banking system, as the apron was paved and became part of the track, and the track's banking was varied from 4 degrees in the lower two lanes to 12% grade (about seven degrees). The addition of SAFER barriers to the corner walls was made in 2003.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hampshire_Motor_Speedway

harvick#1

22nd June 2010, 19:36

there were talks though that the banking was gonna be 20-25 degrees, I was glad they never went with it though

Oli_M

22nd June 2010, 21:35

Mark in Oshawa

22nd June 2010, 22:18

That was a terrific race. But is NH the same track it was in 92? Didn't it get "Nascarized", i.e. more banking, a few years back after the deaths of Adam Petty and others? I always like my ovals more on the flatter side for ow racing.

The progressive banking that is there essentially means it is slightly less than flat. You watch the NASCAR boys this weekend up coming and then tell me how banked that place is!

They added just enough to allow the NASCAR guys to run side by side and race a bit. The banking had nothing to do with the Kenny Irwin and Adam Petty death's.

Mark in Oshawa

22nd June 2010, 22:20

I don't want to drag this off topic, but being from the UK I've got a quick question to ask - Pocono - I've seen youtube vids of indycar racing there in the past, and I think the NASCAR races there can be pretty good - what's the reason that Indycar no longer goes there? It should be fairly close the New York market??

Staying more on topic - from what I've seen over the past three years (when I've really watched Indycar) - the shorter, flatter tracks do seem to produce the better racing and possibly demand more skill, so NHMS looks like a fairly good move to me.

The reason they wont go there I think mainly is due to the real bumpy nature of Pocono. IT is a NASCAR track in the eyes of fans, and CART quit going there years ago because I think of the speed on the main straight. Sprint Cup cars are hauling into Corner 1 at 200mph, so one can only imagine the clip a modern Indy Car would be going around this place.

While less than 2 hours from New York City, really it might as well be 6..New Yorkers don't care about racing except if they are in the Ad business.

nigelred5

23rd June 2010, 00:33

Well, there are certainly some signs pointing to New Hampshire returning to the schedule, apparently there is some beef going on between SMI and the tow officials per local news outlets.
http://www.wmur.com/news/23938743/detail.html

It seems plausible that they are planning on moving the NASCAR date to Kentucky and replacing the June date with an ICS race, or using the IRL event to spread the cost out between three instead of two events.

Also, I haven't heard anything about Baltimore replacing Edmonton. City officials are pressing forward, but Northlands won't be the organizer, it will probably be either Green or Lanigan taking over. Watkins Glen is at the end of its contract, and they have been less than productive about promoting the event.

If Watkins Glen was held on ANY other weekend than 4th of July, I'd be there. Escaping 50+ years of my family's involvement running the local parade and july 4th celebrations is not something I can escape. ;(

nigelred5

23rd June 2010, 00:39

The reason they wont go there I think mainly is due to the real bumpy nature of Pocono. IT is a NASCAR track in the eyes of fans, and CART quit going there years ago because I think of the speed on the main straight. Sprint Cup cars are hauling into Corner 1 at 200mph, so one can only imagine the clip a modern Indy Car would be going around this place.

While less than 2 hours from New York City, really it might as well be 6..New Yorkers don't care about racing except if they are in the Ad business.

It's far too bumpy along the main straight. There was also some pretty bad blood between the Mattioli Family and Indycars that has not been forgotten. That and being just about the only only independent track left on the Sprint cup schedule with a NASCAR weekend, let alone two six weeks apart, They (Pocono) aren't doing anything that would jeapordize either weekend.

Lousada

23rd June 2010, 10:40

It's far too bumpy along the main straight. There was also some pretty bad blood between the Mattioli Family and Indycars that has not been forgotten. That and being just about the only only independent track left on the Sprint cup schedule with a NASCAR weekend, let alone two six weeks apart, They (Pocono) aren't doing anything that would jeapordize either weekend.

Not to mention the track does not have a full fence. Imagine an Indycar clipping those trees...

Pat Wiatrowski

23rd June 2010, 14:33

Mark in Oshawa

23rd June 2010, 21:32

It's far too bumpy along the main straight. There was also some pretty bad blood between the Mattioli Family and Indycars that has not been forgotten. That and being just about the only only independent track left on the Sprint cup schedule with a NASCAR weekend, let alone two six weeks apart, They (Pocono) aren't doing anything that would jeapordize either weekend.

Well, the Mattioli's like making money, and the Indycar family they fought with was CART, and they are long dead, so that isnt' the issue. No...the track itself, and the influence NASCAR might have over things would pretty much dictate the Indycars not coming back there.

nigelred5

24th June 2010, 01:20

Too bad Trenton isn't around anymore. That right hand dogleg was unique

Mark in Oshawa

24th June 2010, 07:29

Too bad Trenton isn't around anymore. That right hand dogleg was unique
I am too young really to remember that...but I wish Nazerath was still around...I loved that track...

Dr. Krogshöj

24th June 2010, 15:06

I am too young really to remember that...but I wish Nazerath was still around...I loved that track...

I thought it was still around - the track, that is, minus the facilities. Can anyone from the area provide an update on Nazareth's status? It would be lovely if someone (the Andrettis maybe?) reopened that track.

champcarray

24th June 2010, 17:14

Can someone point me to the track records for CART at NHMS? The speedways website only shows records for series currently racing there.

On a related note, I see that the NASCAR boys are finally lapping faster than the local modified series. IIRC, the modified were averaging 8-10 mph faster than the Winston Cupper were back in 2001. My wife and I found that very amusing. The modifieds were slowed down in '02 with restrictor plates and the COT finally outpaced them in '08 or '09.

Mark in Oshawa

24th June 2010, 21:34

On a related note, I see that the NASCAR boys are finally lapping faster than the local modified series. IIRC, the modified were averaging 8-10 mph faster than the Winston Cupper were back in 2001. My wife and I found that very amusing. The modifieds were slowed down in '02 with restrictor plates and the COT finally outpaced them in '08 or '09.

Modifieds are faster because they are lighter and have bigger tires and sit lower. Add all that up, and it is no surprise they are quicker on a flat track like New Hampshire.

They are quicker than the Cup boys at Bristol too....

That said, the IRL boys will be chasing the CART lap records, and with less power, I don't see those lap records falling. As for your finding the lap records not being there for series not there now, I am sure someone has a data base of when the IRL did run there, but I think that was in the days of the IRL running the old CART chassis, not this newer formula.

MDS

24th June 2010, 22:33

That said, the IRL boys will be chasing the CART lap records, and with less power, I don't see those lap records falling. As for your finding the lap records not being there for series not there now, I am sure someone has a data base of when the IRL did run there, but I think that was in the days of the IRL running the old CART chassis, not this newer formula.

Bear in mind that the track has been altered since then, but I'm pretty sure the record for Loudon was set by Little Al in 1994 at 175.09, which is about 10 miles an hour faster than Milwaukee.

Given that the top speed at Milwaukee last year was 168, its not unreal to believe that we could see speeds at or near the 1990s level, given the increase in the track's banking and other factors.

Hoop-98

25th June 2010, 01:09

Pole in 94 or 95 was 21.42, 70's the year before. The 97 IRL was like a 23.15.
the track has been repaved.

Generally a 2010 flat oval IRL is a second plus quicker than the 97.

rh

nigelred5

25th June 2010, 02:24

I am too young really to remember that...but I wish Nazerath was still around...I loved that track...

Certainly can't argue that. Attended every CART race held there. oycotted the IRL. The years of 18-19 second laps were friggin awesome! Glad I got to see indycars run at both tracks!!

nigelred5

25th June 2010, 02:27

I thought it was still around - the track, that is, minus the facilities. Can anyone from the area provide an update on Nazareth's status? It would be lovely if someone (the Andrettis maybe?) reopened that track.

Last time I was up there was after the grandstands were moved to the glen. I was told they cut large wide trenches across the racing surface and tore up a cople other key parts of the track to render it useless. What a shame. that's effin ISC and hte France Family for you. you can see the carnage on MSN maps. it's depressing

Lee Roy

25th June 2010, 03:41

Attended every CART race held there. Boycotted the IRL.

that's effin ISC and hte France Family for you. you can see the carnage on MSN maps. it's depressing

With fan support like yours, what do you expect them to do?

garyshell

25th June 2010, 05:04

Last time I was up there was after the grandstands were moved to the glen. I was told they cut large wide trenches across the racing surface and tore up a cople other key parts of the track to render it useless. What a shame. that's effin ISC and hte France Family for you. you can see the carnage on MSN maps. it's depressing

With fan support like yours, what do you expect them to do?

As if fan support had ANYTHING to do with their monopolistic actions. Please explain how rendering a facility unusable rather than just shuttering it, is about the alleged lack of fan support. Closing it sure, I'll give you that. Making the place unusable, had NOTHING to do with the fans. It was to eliminate any chance of competition, plain and simple.

Gary

anthonyvop

25th June 2010, 05:07

As if fan support had ANYTHING to do with their monopolistic actions. Please explain how rendering a facility unusable rather than just shuttering it, is about the alleged lack of fan support. Closing it sure, I'll give you that. Making the place unusable, had NOTHING to do with the fans. It was to eliminate any chance of competition, plain and simple.

Gary

The track was rendered unusable for liability reasons pure and simple. Look up the term "attractive nuisance"

garyshell

25th June 2010, 05:17

The track was rendered unusable for liability reasons pure and simple. Look up the term "attractive nuisance"

Uh huh, sure... if you say so. Legal BS. Do you honestly belive that there was no monopolistic intent on the part of ISC? How many other trakcs have they bought and bulldozed?

Gary

call_me_andrew

25th June 2010, 06:29

Can someone point me to the track records for CART at NHMS? The speedways website only shows records for series currently racing there.

http://www.racing-reference.info/tracks/New_Hampshire_International_Speedway

Scroll to the bottom for CART and IRL records.

New Hampshire could come in place of Kansas, as it seems as though ISC are not going to renew their IndyCar races (including Watkins Glen)

What is this based on?

Marbles

25th June 2010, 13:01

Lee Roy

25th June 2010, 13:17

http://maps.google.ca/maps?ll=40.728299,-75.320613&spn=0.00722,0.013754&t=h&z=16&lci=com.panoramio.all

Looks useable to me. Looks like about half the stands are gone. The IRL could probably come close to a sell-out now.

I didn't see a trench cut across the track, but that's what fill dirt and asphalt are for.

Lee Roy

25th June 2010, 13:18

How many other trakcs have they bought and bulldozed?

Gary

And those would be? (And Nazareth doesn't look very "bulldozed" to me.) Maybe the IRL should buy it and put on those highly profitable Indy Car races there.

Lee Roy

25th June 2010, 13:22

The track was rendered unusable for liability reasons pure and simple. Look up the term "attractive nuisance"

Yep. All you need is some 16 year old hot-rodder to break in there and kill himself doing hot-laps. The family would get millions and everyone here would be blaming that evil old ISC.

nigelred5

25th June 2010, 13:49

Looks useable to me. Looks like about half the stands are gone. The IRL could probably come close to a sell-out now.

I didn't see a trench cut across the track, but that's what fill dirt and asphalt are for.

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&cp=qsn0jq8qq0fm&scene=45968482&lvl=1&sty=b&where1=Nazareth%2C%20PA

That's why I said look at MSN (BING)maps. Depending o nteh resolution, the images are Much newer on MSN. Some show the track covered in weeds with everything that could be unbolted or moved gone. sure, it COULD be rebuilt, but it was torn down to make it toatlly unattative to a track operator to buy it as a race track and run races there. Those google images are at least 5-6 years old. MSN Birdseye view clearly shows the catch fencing all grandstands and the surrounding fencing was removed as well as large holes dug out of the racing surface. The facility was more secure before they did all of that. If one had ever reviewed the estate listings for the property, the property included a clause that it could never be used as a motor racing facility by prospective buyers. NASCAR/ISC was trying to develop the Staten Island project . The had similar clauses in the Pikes Peak property before they abandoned the Denver area. The difference was Pikes Peak could have been a viable alternative to a new facility in the Denver area. NAZARETH was a direct competetor to the two Pocono races which already draw heavily from the New York area. When the Busch races were moved from Nazareth, they had no use for it. DESTROYING it under the guise of liability is legitimate but bull$#it as to the real reason.

nigelred5

25th June 2010, 14:12

Yep. All you need is some 16 year old hot-rodder to break in there and kill himself doing hot-laps. The family would get millions and everyone here would be blaming that evil old ISC.

Or we could still be attending local modified and usac races at what was a world class facility before they destroyed the place. does ISC dig holes in their tracks between every race?

Lee Roy

25th June 2010, 14:14

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&cp=qsn0jq8qq0fm&scene=45968482&lvl=1&sty=b&where1=Nazareth%2C%20PA

That's why I said look at MSN (BING)maps. Depending o nteh resolution, the images are Much newer on MSN. Some show the track covered in weeds with everything that could be unbolted or moved gone. sure, it COULD be rebuilt, but it was torn down to make it toatlly unattative to a track operator to buy it as a race track and run races there. Those google images are at least 5-6 years old. MSN Birdseye view clearly shows the catch fencing all grandstands and the surrounding fencing was removed as well as large holes dug out of the racing surface. The facility was more secure before they did all of that. If one had ever reviewed the estate listings for the property, the property included a clause that it could never be used as a motor racing facility by prospective buyers. NASCAR/ISC was trying to develop the Staten Island project . The had similar clauses in the Pikes Peak property before they abandoned the Denver area. The difference was Pikes Peak could have been a viable alternative to a new facility in the Denver area. NAZARETH was a direct competetor to the two Pocono races which already draw heavily from the New York area. When the Busch races were moved from Nazareth, they had no use for it. DESTROYING it under the guise of liability is legitimate but bull$#it as to the real reason.

Still doesn't look that "destroyed" to me. Those "holes" don't look all that big, pretty simple to fix I imagine. I would have taken all the fencing down too. No need to keep up a bunch of unused fencing that will have to be maintained.

I went there several times for CART races in the late 1990's, first one in 1995. Loved it. Remember having to buy my tickets a few months ahead of time to ensure getting one. Then the IRL arrived and the grandstands were only about half filled. That's right, blame that evil old ISC for not continuing to operate a money pit.

Sounds like Pikes Peak International is doing pretty well:

PPIR reopened September 2008 with a focus on participant motorsports events. A wide variety of amateur racing groups use PPIR for racing, testing and training. Due to NASCAR's ban on testing at tracks with NASCAR races, many NASCAR teams run test sessions at PPIR.

Current on-track activity (2010) includes race events by SCCA, NASA, MRA, INEX, Pikes Peak Kart Racing Club and many other groups, sanctioning bodies and clubs. The Rocky Mountain Muscle Car Classic holds its annual car show at PPIR. Several organizations use the auto cross lot for auto cross and drifting activities. Manufacturers utilize the facility for vehicle expositions, performance driving events and customer appreciation events. Open test & tune days are offered to the motorsports public. PPIR is home to the Speedway Drivers Search television program and racing school. The GO4IT driving/racing school is based at PPIR. Griffith Speed & Custom operates a race shop and race car dealership in the infield. Race fuel and tire services are available at PPIR.

Future plans call for the construction of additional road courses, trackside lots and motorsports business related shops, restaurants and hotel facilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikes_Peak_International_Raceway

As I recall (but can't find the article) the IRL abandoned racing at PPIR before ISC bought it.

nigelred5

25th June 2010, 14:31

Still doesn't look that "destroyed" to me. Those "holes" don't look all that big, pretty simple to fix I imagine. I would have taken all the fencing down too. No need to keep up a bunch of unused fencing that will have to be maintained.

I went there several times for CART races in the late 1990's, first one in 1995. Loved it. Remember having to buy my tickets a few months ahead of time to ensure getting one. Then the IRL arrived and the grandstands were only about half filled. That's right, blame that evil old ISC for not continuing to operate a money pit.

Sounds like Pikes Peak International is doing pretty well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikes_Peak_International_Raceway

As I recall (but can't find the article) the IRL abandoned racing at PPIR before ISC bought it.

Attendance went to hell at Nazareth BECAUSE it was the IRL, not CART/Champcar. Pikes peak is doing NOW. It was closed down by ISC when they were trying to ramrod a much larger project east of Denver, but they maintained the facility as long as they were trying to get into the market. When it became clear no one wanted NASCAR, they sold it as a viable facility because it was in a market where they aren't wanted. It was worth more that way. I've read there are stipulation in the Pikes Peak purchase taht they can't hold high level racing there, but that's hearsay.

anthonyvop

25th June 2010, 14:35

Or we could still be attending local modified and usac races at what was a world class facility before they destroyed the place. does ISC dig holes in their tracks between every race?

So ISC should maintain a track even though they don't want to for whatever reason?

Lee Roy

25th June 2010, 14:38

So ISC should maintain a track even though they don't want to for whatever reason?

Of course they should.

Lee Roy

25th June 2010, 14:42

Attendance went to hell at Nazareth BECAUSE it was the IRL, not CART/Champcar.

I thought that's what I said.

But you're agreeing that attendance went to hell and the track's profitability was suspect?

nigelred5

25th June 2010, 15:03

Chris R

25th June 2010, 15:08

Uh huh, sure... if you say so. Legal BS. Do you honestly belive that there was no monopolistic intent on the part of ISC? How many other trakcs have they bought and bulldozed?

Gary

For what it is worth, here in the northeast, where the number of lawyers far outstrips common sense let alone any sense of personal responsibility. There is no way I would leave a race track in any sort of usable form - somebody would find a way to convince the judge or jury that ISC was at fault because a couple of teenagers used a plasma torch to cut a hole in the fence, the gate blocking any tunnel or bridge ,and ignored approximately 200 "no trespassing" signs. They would probably even find them liable if the kids drove in an articulated loader to move the piles of dirt blocking the track.....

I am no fan of ISC - but what harm does Nazareth do to them if someone else operates it?? I do not see how it draws from any other ISC property....

All that being said, I think the state of the track has a lot more to do with the intended development that did not materialize due to the economic bust than any grand plan to monopolize racing... (although I tend to agree that the France family has aspirations to that effect and has taken many actions to meet that goal....)

Lee Roy

25th June 2010, 15:12

Attendance went down at Nazareth, just as it did at all the former Penske tracks . . . . .

As well as most any other place the IRL races.

Chris R

25th June 2010, 15:32

My bone of contention was the clause that the property could not be used as a race facility, even if some wanted to buy what was a viable facility. Attendance went down at Nazareth, just as it did at all the former Penske tracks when ISC bought it from Penske and promotion evaporated. Penske promoted the CART races in Baltimore. The IRL races were barely promoted in Philly.

I live in the region (south Jersey) and this is correct... There was little to no promotion of the Nazereth race after CART. We heard a little about the Dover race - but very little... When you get down to it, NASCAR does suprisingly little local promotion for races - we never hear much about the races in Dover or Pocono all said and done...

Anyway, the other issue is that when the IRL was at Nazareth, aside for the political issues, the cars sounded terrible - who wants to sit in a bowl and listen to that sounds for a couple of hours????

Lee Roy

25th June 2010, 15:51

I live in the region (south Jersey) and this is correct... There was little to no promotion of the Nazereth race after CART. We heard a little about the Dover race - but very little...

I live in Southern Maryland and remember quite a bit of promotion for the Dover IRL races (which I attended).

nigelred5

25th June 2010, 16:49

They did promote the hell out of Dover in the Baltimore and DC area for both horrible races, but this region is the primary market for the Dover race. Those races were also in what the second and third full seasons of the IRL? That was also the IRL and Dover promoting that race, not ISC. Honda sponsored the Nazareth IRL races, and that promotion barely left Car Dealerships. A friend of mine that worked for onda at the time told me the number of tickets distributed free by the local Honda Dealers far exceeded actual fan paid attendance, but that hasn't much changed anywhere.

Back on topic, the war is over, hopefully most of us are moving on. If I was in new England, I would absolutely attend New Hampshire. I will be attending Baltimore next year. I actually already have my reservations at the Hilton.

Mark in Oshawa

25th June 2010, 20:43

Anyway, the other issue is that when the IRL was at Nazareth, aside for the political issues, the cars sounded terrible - who wants to sit in a bowl and listen to that sounds for a couple of hours????

Who wants to listen to race engines on an oval? You kidding me? You are serious right? It is RACING dude....That is part of the deal.....

nigelred5

25th June 2010, 20:47

Back then the sound WAS a problem. IIRC Honda revised the exhaust and some of the timing to alter the really bad gutteral droning. It was a complaint everywhere, not just at Nazareth as I recall.

Chris R

25th June 2010, 21:16

Who wants to listen to race engines on an oval? You kidding me? You are serious right? It is RACING dude....That is part of the deal.....

I think maybe I mis-spoke or was mis-understood.

There is good racing sound and bad racing sound - those cars sounded terrible........ I would not have gone to a short oval race to hear them.... I'd go for champ cars or todays car no problem.....

All that being said - I much prefer the sounds of a road course with a wider range of pitch and tone changes due to "working" the engine and the way sounds rolls over natural terrain....

Mark in Oshawa

25th June 2010, 22:37

I think maybe I mis-spoke or was mis-understood.

There is good racing sound and bad racing sound - those cars sounded terrible........ I would not have gone to a short oval race to hear them.... I'd go for champ cars or todays car no problem.....

All that being said - I much prefer the sounds of a road course with a wider range of pitch and tone changes due to "working" the engine and the way sounds rolls over natural terrain....

lol...I personally don't like the exhaust note of this Honda incarnation as much as I liked the old turbo's that ran at Nazerath...

champcarray

26th June 2010, 23:48

To call_me_andrew: Thanks for the link to http://www.racing-reference.info/tra...ional_Speedway. What an excellent site!

Jag_Warrior

27th June 2010, 01:01

lol...I personally don't like the exhaust note of this Honda incarnation as much as I liked the old turbo's that ran at Nazerath...

Several years ago I think Hoop98 gave a good explanation as to why the previous generation IRL engines had a rather flatulent sound. I think that was when he also spoke about how mufflers could be used (without decreasing horsepower) to "tune" an engine sound to be more pleasant to the average human ear. But I believe the rapid-fire farting sound had more to do with the crank than just the exhaust configuration.

I know how much hell ALMS went through with the D.C. ALMS race. Hopefully the Baltimore IRL race won't be faced with those same NIMBY and noise issues.

Hoop-98

27th June 2010, 01:48

Several years ago I think Hoop98 gave a good explanation as to why the previous generation IRL engines had a rather flatulent sound. I think that was when he also spoke about how mufflers could be used (without decreasing horsepower) to "tune" an engine sound to be more pleasant to the average human ear. But I believe the rapid-fire farting sound had more to do with the crank than just the exhaust configuration.

I know how much hell ALMS went through with the D.C. ALMS race. Hopefully the Baltimore IRL race won't be faced with those same NIMBY and noise issues.

90 deg crank like stock cars so they sounded like them. Switced to 180 or flat about 02 or 03 but reality never has much to do with sound descriptions. Then the difference was RPM and the muffling by the turbo. With a 90deg crank you need to cross two cylinders over to the other bank to get "360" sound and extraction

https://02e267b.netsolstores.com/images/Bundleofsnakes/2009-gt40-mk1-engine.jpg

Of course a vote on the preferred sound amongst all "race fans" has never been done, might be surprised how many would vote for that american sound.

Kinda like Harley vs Ninja....

The 5 car showed up at Daytona in the early 90's with 180 headers and had everyone scratching their watches and winding their butts!

Good explanation here.

http://www.burnsstainless.com/bundleofsnakes-2.aspx

champcarray

28th June 2010, 01:37

Bruiton Smith and Randy B officially announced the race today. It will be held July 30, 2011. More at http://www.nhms.com/media/news/575132.html.

Tickets go on sale tomorrow!!!

Chris R

28th June 2010, 02:20

The 5 car showed up at Daytona in the early 90's with 180 headers and had everyone scratching their watches and winding their butts!

Good explanation here.

http://www.burnsstainless.com/bundleofsnakes-2.aspx

I guess my vote would be obvious because I thought those cars were he coolest sounding stock cars ever...... I think Sterling Marlin and the Kodak car were running those and won....

nigelred5

28th June 2010, 02:26

I rember them. They had a very different sound and were FAAAAST.

Lee Roy

28th June 2010, 02:32

I know how much hell ALMS went through with the D.C. ALMS race. Hopefully the Baltimore IRL race won't be faced with those same NIMBY and noise issues.

The DC race was held in a residential neighborhood. Not really a very smart thing from the beginning. There were houses where a person could stand in the front yard and throw a rock onto the racing surfance.

And ALMS didn't go through hell, it was the idiotic promoters.

call_me_andrew

28th June 2010, 06:46

To call_me_andrew: Thanks for the link to http://www.racing-reference.info/tra...ional_Speedway. What an excellent site!

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Lee Roy

28th June 2010, 13:05

It was held in the parking lots of DC Stadium, the former home of the Redskins, who created more noise and traffic on any home Sunday than the race.

The difference level of noise is very debatable. Plus, a "Redskins Game" only happened on one day, and the game only lasts a few hours. This race weekend went on for three days, and with several racing series (ALMS, The SCCA Speed Channel Sponsored Series, Trans Am, and Formula Mazda I believe) to be run, the engine noise (some of it quite loud) went on nearly incessantly the whole time. The Trans-Am and Panoz LMP were particularly loud.

There was one block of housing facing the track area. That was it. The promoters offered to put all of the residents up in one of DC's best hotels for the weekend if they wanted to get away from the noise.

Thanks, glad you admit it was in a residential area. And there was one block of houses right across the street from the track, with block after block of houses right behind that.

Maybe they didn't want to go to a hotel, maybe they just wanted to stay in their homes.

Face it, you can put all of the "racing fan spin" all you want to on this, but holding a three day race event in a residential area is a DUMB idea. Hey, I was there on the Friday and Sunday and loved it, but even before the event happened I knew that it was sheer idiocy holding a race there.

Lee Roy

28th June 2010, 17:28

A strong argument can be made for not having any race event on public streets between noise and serious traffic issues because of the impact on roads during construction of the course.

I think there is a big difference in holding a street race in a commerical area where there are restaurants, bars, and hotels which benefit from the holding event, and holding it in a residential area where none of those things exist, but where there are people who will get tired of hearing the loud sound of racing engines continuosly for three days.

I'm sorry, but I went to many Redskins games at RFK and the sound of the cheers wasn't anywhere close to the sound of those racing engine. (Of course, in my humble opinion.)

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a track here in the DC area where ALMS could have an annual event.

champcarray

28th June 2010, 18:33

I noted this in the IndyCar nation email I received announcing next year's race at New Hampshire: ""The Indy Racing League's IZOD IndyCar Series marks its 200th race Sept. 4 at Kentucky Speedway. In 2011, it returns to one of its original venues."

Apparently nobody told the PR team that the ICS is only the latest iteration of AOWR and they should stop ignoring its rich history, whether it was sanctioned by AAA, USAC, CART, CCWS, etc. Pitiful. Absolutely pitiful.

Randy is going to be wasting time herding cats....

nigelred5

29th June 2010, 03:30

The difference level of noise is very debatable. Plus, a "Redskins Game" only happened on one day, and the game only lasts a few hours. This race weekend went on for three days, and with several racing series (ALMS, The SCCA Speed Channel Sponsored Series, Trans Am, and Formula Mazda I believe) to be run, the engine noise (some of it quite loud) went on nearly incessantly the whole time. The Trans-Am and Panoz LMP were particularly loud.

Thanks, glad you admit it was in a residential area. And there was one block of houses right across the street from the track, with block after block of houses right behind that.

Maybe they didn't want to go to a hotel, maybe they just wanted to stay in their homes.

Face it, you can put all of the "racing fan spin" all you want to on this, but holding a three day race event in a residential area is a DUMB idea. Hey, I was there on the Friday and Sunday and loved it, but even before the event happened I knew that it was sheer idiocy holding a race there.

[img] http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&cp=38.893562634697545~-76.97715103626251&lvl=16&sty=h&where1=RF%20Kennedy%20Memorial%20Stadium%2C%20DC[\img]

Still there ;) . That paving job they did made for one hell of a parking lot for soccer matches.

The Panoz and the Corvettes were extremely loud. OTOH, you could barely hear the Audi R8's coming around the track. y sunday they did have some temporary walls trying to lessen the noise, but the houses closest to the track were in a particularly bad location in that corner of the track.

call_me_andrew

29th June 2010, 06:33

Lee Roy

29th June 2010, 12:56

Still there ;) . That paving job they did made for one hell of a parking lot for soccer matches.

I went to a Cirque du Soleil performance there about 5 years ago where the tent was in that parking lot. I remember driving on the asphalt they had laid for the track. Smoothest thing I'd ever driven on.

nigelred5

29th June 2010, 13:33

I went to a Cirque du Soleil performance there about 5 years ago where the tent was in that parking lot. I remember driving on the asphalt they had laid for the track. Smoothest thing I'd ever driven on.

It was. I actually rode in on the metro with the president of the company that laid the asphalt. He was telling me it was the highest polimer content asphalt they had ever handled, and had a very precise specification for the aggregate that was different than anything used on a highway.

They were doing it right, just in the wrong place. It's too bad they didn't do it around Redskins stadium instead of RFK, but then it would still be just another parking lot course.

I'm sure I can only dream of a comparable surface going down on Russell, Pratt, Conway and Light streets.

Mark in Oshawa

4th July 2010, 06:45

I think there is a big difference in holding a street race in a commerical area where there are restaurants, bars, and hotels which benefit from the holding event, and holding it in a residential area where none of those things exist, but where there are people who will get tired of hearing the loud sound of racing engines continuosly for three days.

I'm sorry, but I went to many Redskins games at RFK and the sound of the cheers wasn't anywhere close to the sound of those racing engine. (Of course, in my humble opinion.)

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a track here in the DC area where ALMS could have an annual event.

Funny, the sound of gunfire in DC didn't keep anyone awake?? lol....

I think the people near the track likely didn't complain NEARLY as much as the city council members with their own agenda's. DC is one of the most corrupt muncipal governments on earth....