European Grand Prix [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

Saint Devote

20th June 2010, 18:07

Amazing really.

Here we are almost halfway into the 2010 season and there is no sign of which driver will be this season's dominant winner or the world champion.

I dont like the new scoring system because it has introduced a volatility previously no there.

Last year Rubens won in fine style at the horrible dockyard track called Valencia and initial leader Hamilton and Mclaren were wrong on strategy.

I think its going to be another Mark Webber Sunday.

Jenson has a problem and it is the qualifying of Lewis Hamilton. Unless circumstances are uncertain - where Jenson excells - it is going to be almost impossible for him to now finish ahead of his teammate if he is not able to qualify that tenth of a second quicker.

Ranger

22nd June 2010, 07:45

http://www.formula1.com predicts fog for Saturday and Sunday! :s hock:

But I'll believe it when I see it.

If we get a race half as good as Canada I'll be stoked, as there have been an average of 2 overtakes for each Valencian GP to date.

This is compared to 65 overtakes a fortnight ago!

Tazio

22nd June 2010, 08:02

christophulus

22nd June 2010, 10:51

Here we are almost halfway into the 2010 season and there is no sign of which driver will be this season's dominant winner or the world champion.

I dont like the new scoring system because it has introduced a volatility previously no there.

The new points system hasn't had much impact, it's just artificially inflated the points:

Driver Actual points Under ‘03-’09 points
Lewis Hamilton 109 44
Jenson Button 106 43
Mark Webber 103 40
Fernando Alonso 94 38
Sebastian Vettel 90 37
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/06/16/who-will-come-out-on-top-in-the-closest-championship-battle-in-years/

Long story short, there are five drivers within one win of the lead, which is fantastic at this stage of the season. As for Valencia, I can see McLaren winning another snore-fest.

Sonic

22nd June 2010, 10:59

Personally I have a feeling this might be a Ferrari weekend. They were back on it at Canada and with Mediums/Hards as the tyre combo (I think) Massa could get in amoungst the front 4 again.

Valve Bounce

22nd June 2010, 11:01

I dont like the new scoring system because it has introduced a volatility previously no there.

Have you spoken to Bernie about this? Maybe he can help you out!

Saint Devote

22nd June 2010, 11:59

Personally I have a feeling this might be a Ferrari weekend. They were back on it at Canada and with Mediums/Hards as the tyre combo (I think) Massa could get in amoungst the front 4 again.

Ferrari will be the most interesting because they are the first to race with the big upgrade involving the exhaust system redesign.

And Alonso given a competitive car is always a factor. I still rate him as the man likely to win the title this year.

Saint Devote

22nd June 2010, 13:02

Have you spoken to Bernie about this? Maybe he can help you out!

I spoke to him about this at the start of the season but he blames it on the FIA.......

Saint Devote

22nd June 2010, 13:05

DNF's or finishing out of the points because of someone else’s race incident that you are an innocent victim of are killers! Reliability issues have killed Fettel! :up: :D

Thats my point actually - the volatility is in such situations has a driver out of the top five say one week, then the next, suddenly reappears.

It was far more stable previously.

I suppose part of the intention was to reward reliability as well.

Saint Devote

22nd June 2010, 13:19

Not Jenson???? :confused:
You being a long time Jenson Button fan and a proud member of his 'Barmy Army', where is your faith?? You've been gushing over Alonso alot this season, and although he's an amazing driver, I still wouldn't utter the words that he'll be WDC.

Jenson is second in the Championship at present only 3 points behind Lewis in a car which is proving to be moving fast in the development race. Mclaren will not doubt have their own upgrade this weekend and I think they will once again be strong. Have abit of faith in your fav driver.. ;)

Why do I gave to mention Jenson when my views are already known? Secondly, faith is not involved here - I have something based on reality as far as Jense is concerned, confidence.

Of course I want Jenson to win - but my assessment is based on what I think is most probable on Sunday.

If weather conditions were to become volatile then in this case my view would change.

Mclaren's big upgrade involving its' reworking of the exhaust through the diffuser is only scheduled for Silverstone.

Saint Devote

22nd June 2010, 13:27

On the other hand - maybe this will be a GREAT weekend for Jense as I just now realized that looking after one's tyres will also be of prime importance from now on "thanks" to Bridgestone!

I am evil Homer

22nd June 2010, 13:51

Well it was in the last race and he was beaten by Lewis "tyre wrecker" Hamilton ;)

Valve Bounce

22nd June 2010, 15:02

Sonic

22nd June 2010, 16:03

On the other hand - maybe this will be a GREAT weekend for Jense as I just now realized that looking after one's tyres will also be of prime importance from now on "thanks" to Bridgestone!

I was under the impression that Bridgestone were bringing the mediums as planned and would start getting aggressive from then on?

Saint Devote

23rd June 2010, 03:03

Unresolved question is why the dishonest strategy of under fuelling Hamilton during qualifying to obtain pole position was not also applied in Button's case.

Possibly, even with Button's engineer away the Mclarens might have also have started first and second - the way that they finished.

At Valencia it will not be repeated and anyone underfuelling during qualifying will be penalized.

Bridgestone have said that including Valencia they intend to bring super-softs to as many races as possible - so mediums and super-softs are probable this weekend.

Saint Devote

23rd June 2010, 03:17

It will rain,
in Spain,
and the Bunsen
will reign!
:up:

From your mouth to G-d's ears :D

Actually it is not straighforward inclement conditions where Jenson excells.

It is in the special domain of Schumi that is Jense's forte - uncertain and changing conditions on track. Neither wet, nor dry, but confusing and greasy.

Big Ben

23rd June 2010, 09:34

Thats not bad going considering Jenson has convinced a number of people of his ability to read conditions off the back of two performances.

I think both were more of a gamble than any special ability, and both times it payed off. He risked and won. That's his merit.

Valve Bounce

23rd June 2010, 10:59

Thats not bad going considering Jenson has convinced a number of people of his ability to read conditions off the back of two performances.

Well convinced ain't me! I'm just taking a punt and funning the canonised. :p :
And I certainly wouldn't mention the Bunsen in the same breath as SchM - that is taking poetic license a bit too far. :D

Mia 01

23rd June 2010, 11:22

I predict:

1 Seb

2 Alonso

3 Jenson

If it rains, the opposite.

Saint Devote

23rd June 2010, 12:27

I think both were more of a gamble than any special ability, and both times it payed off. He risked and won. That's his merit.

The superb SAS say it best with their motto: he who dares wins.
But the ability to carry it off is equally vital.

And Jense has done that on both occasions where conditions have been neither one way or the other.

Risk is the probablity deviation from the expected result - Button's skill allows it to be well within acceptable limits.

His merit indeed :D

Valve Bounce

23rd June 2010, 12:42

GO Bunsen! Common rain! :up:

Saint Devote

23rd June 2010, 12:55

GO Bunsen! Common rain! :up:

I am sure that Jenson will be mentioned in dispatches - but in Valencia if the weather is anything other than an abrasive hot surface overlooked by rooftop pools constaining minimally dressed nubile crumpet, it WILL be the impossble season - and Mark Webber WILL win the WDC.

Imagine the smiles in the Red Bull camp then, especially from Helmuth Marko :D

pallone col bracciale

23rd June 2010, 13:43

Well I'm still backing Lewis on this one, and I know his four brilliant victories in the wet (Fuji '07, Silverstone, Monaco, Spa '08) don't quite measure up to Jenson's two this season, I still think he's in with a fighting chance.. :D

Fingers crossed the Mac boys show that Red Bull's lame attempt at an F-duct, and Ferrari's latest update was a sheer waste of time.. ;) :)

Spa 2008 winner was Felipe Massa. That was the official result.

Big Ben

23rd June 2010, 14:49

Spa 2008 winner was Felipe Massa. That was the official result.

Look who's back :laugh: . Only 2 years have gone by. Give him some more time :laugh: .

Saint Devote

24th June 2010, 04:47

Indeed, but in the context of this thread its a reminder of what a driver can do in changing conditions to cross the finish line in first place. Officially does not change what was achieved that day, and it'll still go down in history as one of Hamilton's greatest drives.. :)

Well Henners - you do tend to be rather ebullient with every move Hamilton makes anyway, so proclaiming this as one of his greatest.......

Anyway, that aside - there was nothing at all great about the Canadian Grand Prix and hopefully the European Grand Prix at that flat boring and featureless container port called the Valencia "S" circuit will be more like a real grand prix. Bridgestone be damned.

How hypocritical f1 continues to become.

Teams are forced to be reliable and are regulated like any goddam socialist entity, with engine restrictions and effectively no more innovation - f1 effectively becoming a dead sport.

And yet, when the tyres are unreliable, the pretense is made that suddenly it is exciting and wonderful.

When did overtaking by pitstops become a goal again? We had to put up with that garbage for so long - and it always lifts my spirit when I think back to Senna and his derisive view of ANY form of pitstopping as a strategy.

F1 is questionably a sport and more like an excercise in automotive gimmickry. Real racing was at Le Mans two weeks ago.

When a "sport" - and the drivers are NOT athletes - they are sportsman, has to resort to artificial stimulants and everyone pretends that it is great, there is something fundamentally wrong.

Valve Bounce

24th June 2010, 07:55

Well, the current rules have been inherited from one Max whatsisname. Now I wonder who used to stand by Max and whatever he promulgated? Trying my best but just can't remember that holy guy.

truefan72

24th June 2010, 09:07

Well I might be ebullient to a certain degree with Hamilton, but then again I am a fan of his, and thats something you have to expect. I'm sure my input is nothing compared to the over the top ebullience we witnessed on this forum in the weeks, even months after the 2009 season from yourself.. ;)

I quite enjoyed the Canadian GP and if I go by your reasoning it qualifies as a "Champions Drive", i.e winning from pole.. :p

I really don't get where you are coming from if I'm honest. Your opinion changes like the wind, and afterall when people on here claimed Bahrain was boring, you were one of the very few who claimed it was a great race. So if a procession is more exciting than a race with 4 different leaders, and a winner who has fought his way back from third place after a botched pitstop isn't exciting, then I really do wonder. Also Bahrain was a race which was very much decided by pitstop strategy, so this makes your shared view with the late Ayrton Senna abit vague and frankly puzzling. :\

here here

Big Ben

24th June 2010, 09:54

Well, the current rules have been inherited from one Max whatsisname. Now I wonder who used to stand by Max and whatever he promulgated? Trying my best but just can't remember that holy guy.

After yesterday's rule changes I start to doubt the new guy is any better. He hasn't done enough dumb things yet for the holy guy to love him yet however :laugh:

Mia 01

24th June 2010, 19:43

After yesterday's rule changes I start to doubt the new guy is any better. He hasn't done enough dumb things yet for the holy guy to love him yet however :laugh:

It seems theese days that the Stewards love Lewis.

Retro Formula 1

25th June 2010, 01:35

It seems theese days that the Stewards love Lewis.

Sometimes dear, it's better to let people think you're an idiot rather than type something and confirm the fact ;)

I am sure you can contribute in a positive manner to the forum if you just try? Trolling is so 90's.

Now, enough food for you. Time for a diet :D

Saint Devote

25th June 2010, 02:17

Well, the current rules have been inherited from one Max whatsisname. Now I wonder who used to stand by Max and whatever he promulgated? Trying my best but just can't remember that holy guy.

The thing is that there is so much on the positive side that Bernie and Maz have done for f1 - Max on the FICA side used to drive Jean-Marie Balestre almost insane with his skill at using the rule book.

Both have accomplished so much that I cannot bring myself to stand against them, but at times I do disagree with them.

My criticism of the rules runs parallel to the fact that in the political environment existing worldwide the trend is not friendly to motor racing. Given that, BCE and MM have to deal with this, results are not always the ideal that someone like myself, inculcated with the F1 attitudes of 1974 - 1980.

I think that someone only beginning an f1 education twenty years ago will view things different to me and those only ten years ago - probably light years away and impossible to agree on anything :vader:

The old question asked about American presidential candidiates: would you rather share a drink with Webber or Hamilton? For me it would be Webber.

I think answering that question says a lot.

Phew!! :D

Saint Devote

25th June 2010, 02:31

I really don't get where you are coming from if I'm honest. Your opinion changes like the wind, and afterall when people on here claimed Bahrain was boring, you were one of the very few who claimed it was a great race. So if a procession is more exciting than a race with 4 different leaders, and a winner who has fought his way back from third place after a botched pitstop isn't exciting, then I really do wonder. Also Bahrain was a race which was very much decided by pitstop strategy, so this makes your shared view with the late Ayrton Senna abit vague and frankly puzzling. :\

The wind that blows across the deserts of the mid-east are very different to those on the moors :D

I am consistent so it stands that I would consider Bahrain a good race and Canada the opposite.

F1 racing is not supposed to be celebrated because of gimmicks and component failure. So anyone calling for Valencia to be actually organized that way - component failure - the tyres - ought to be sanctioned. Sadly, Autosport supports the view.

Ari

25th June 2010, 06:40

It seems theese days that the Stewards love Lewis.

I so want to agree with you and provide proof of why, but that will just de-rail the thread and who wants that? :p

Valve Bounce

25th June 2010, 07:40

The thing is that there is so much on the positive side that Bernie and Maz have done for f1 - Max on the FICA side used to drive Jean-Marie Balestre almost insane with his skill at using the rule book.

Both have accomplished so much that I cannot bring myself to stand against them, but at times I do disagree with them.

My criticism of the rules runs parallel to the fact that in the political environment existing worldwide the trend is not friendly to motor racing. Given that, BCE and MM have to deal with this, results are not always the ideal that someone like myself, inculcated with the F1 attitudes of 1974 - 1980.

I think that someone only beginning an f1 education twenty years ago will view things different to me and those only ten years ago - probably light years away and impossible to agree on anything :vader:

The old question asked about American presidential candidiates: would you rather share a drink with Webber or Hamilton? For me it would be Webber.

I think answering that question says a lot.

Phew!! :D

Wouldn't it be more productive if you shared a drink with Max? Then you can whinge to him about all these rule changes instead of whingeing here. :eek:

Saint Devote

25th June 2010, 13:37

You're consistent in contradicting yourself I'll give you that. :p

Yet Bahrain was a race which was decided through component failure and the misfortune of the leading driver dropping back through the field due to an exhaust problem.. :eek:

It was a great race because it was different to Canada eh? :mark:
LOL

I cannot help your philosophical dissonance in not deducing my consistency.

The issue with Bahrain is that it was a natural component failure - not one considered "successful" and now determined to make the racing "great".

Saint Devote

25th June 2010, 13:39

Wouldn't it be more productive if you shared a drink with Max? Then you can whinge to him about all these rule changes instead of whingeing here. :eek:

So then I will assume you will say nothing when Vettel kicks Mark Webber's arse into touch?

Saint Devote

25th June 2010, 13:39

Nico looking good this morning! So far!

Tazio

25th June 2010, 13:46

Senna's mirror adventure. Can you say "puncture" to a competitive team?

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/tvimages/2010/europe/fripic6.jpg

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/tvimages/2010/europe/fripic7.jpg

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/tvimages/2010/europe/fripic8.jpg

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/tvimages/2010/europe/fripic9.jpg

SGWilko

25th June 2010, 14:45

I cannot help your philosophical dissonance in not deducing my consistency.

The issue with Bahrain is that it was a natural component failure - not one considered "successful" and now determined to make the racing "great".

What might be an unnatural component failure exactly? Nuclear strike without warning?

Mia 01

25th June 2010, 22:51

Ferrari and RBR looks strong.

Saint Devote

26th June 2010, 04:50

Ferrari and RBR looks strong.

ALONSO being quick - Massa looking somewhat desperate.

Nice touch - Rosberg showing support for the German team on his racing boots as they take on a ragged looking England side with "looney Rooney" as he is becoming known.

I would expect to see the Brits backside kicked in the match this weekend although the German team is not exactly Klingsman revisited.

I dont think Jenson is likely to win if the Mclaren's true form is where it was in second practice. If Jense does not win then an Alonso or Webber or Rosberg or Schumi victory will do fine :D

Saint Devote

26th June 2010, 04:58

What might be an unnatural component failure exactly? Nuclear strike without warning?

"Unnatural failure" - no, you mean NOT a natural failure.

When a component is utilized without conscious anticipation of it failing - such as a suspension member, then it is a natural failure if it does fail.

If a tyre is used with the intention behind it, that it WILL fail - such as in this case deliberate use of a tyre compund expected to degrade and fail - that is not a natural failure.

If that were to be raced in the US - could be the makings of a law suit against f1 on grounds of knowing it will fail but forcing drivers to use it anyway, regardless of safety concerns. Maybe in the EU too?

Worth a try for some enterprising attorney.

Mia 01

26th June 2010, 12:37

Saint Devote

26th June 2010, 12:58

Suprised that Robert and Renualt is so fast (no blown diffuser).

Ferrari is fast, but it takes five or six laps to heat up their tires, a problem.

RBR will be up ther.

MacLaren slipping back at the moment.

Mercedes ???

Its practice - although Kubica went extremely well. I reckon Ferrari is the one to watch this weekend after their updates. If Alonso is not in the first three - it could well signal that the championship is slipping away. He must beat the Mclarens.

UltimateDanGTR

26th June 2010, 13:29

i dont see this as a mclaren weekend. it's got ferrari written all over it on sunday.

yet, i predict a red bull pole.

Tazio

26th June 2010, 13:38

Suprised that Robert and Renualt is so fast (no blown diffuser).

Ferrari is fast, but it takes five or six laps to heat up their tires, a problem.

RBR will be up ther.

MacLaren slipping back at the moment.

Mercedes ???

Mia I finally realized that you are a genius, or the anti-christ :uhoh:

Mia wrote:

Ferrari is fast, but it takes five or six laps to heat up their tires, a problem.

A problem in quali maybe!
In full race trim it may be their greatest asset.
McLaren may also find themselves in the pound seats because all they have to do is quali on the first three rows,
and they will be in with a shout, considering they have important upgrades coming for Silverstone!

Valve Bounce

26th June 2010, 16:28

Red Bull looking good. I wonder how their tyres will hold up, and fuel conserve mode. :p :

ioan

26th June 2010, 17:34

ALONSO being quick - Massa looking somewhat desperate.

Desperate but still as quick as his 6tenths team mate! :D

ioan

26th June 2010, 17:37

Bad showing by Mercedes and both their drivers.
Now that they know that Pirelli will provide the tires they might as well start designing their 2011 race car.

truefan72

26th June 2010, 18:11

Bad showing by Mercedes and both their drivers.
Now that they know that Pirelli will provide the tires they might as well start designing their 2011 race car.

yep I don't quite understand what is going on over at Mercedes GP. Every GP they seem to be taking a step back. williams beat them hands down this weekend. A cosworth Williams beat them!

I feel bad for rosberg who though he was stepping into a championship calibre car only to see the team severely under-perform. TBH I would have thought that either MSC or Rosberg would have won a race already.

Renault continue to impress me mightily. As I said a while back this was a circuit that suits renault, ferrari and RBR. and law & behold, it does. Hamilton did well to push his car up to 3rd.

I suspect that first corner will be dicey between he and Alonso, as will it be between Webber and Vettel. The run into the first corner actually suits the 2nd/4th car and it will be fireworks. either way a red flag situation in the first couple of corners in lap 1 is a distinct possibility.

This race tends to be processional, but I have high hopes it will deliver one cracker of a race. Can't wait!

MrMetro

26th June 2010, 19:11

For some reason, I also have a good feeling that it will be a good race

UltimateDanGTR

26th June 2010, 20:01

For some reason, I also have a good feeling that it will be a good race

that'll be a first for borelencia. Though, It does have the right ingredients.

Ferrari look like they may look after their tyres better than the red bulls, which would make for a very intruiging battle, not to mention possible better race pace. not to discount mclaren from the battle, even if I doubt it'll be their weekend. On paper, it looks good.

markabilly

26th June 2010, 20:36

yep I don't quite understand what is going on over at Mercedes GP. Every GP they seem to be taking a step back. williams beat them hands down this weekend. A cosworth Williams beat them!

I feel bad for rosberg who though he was stepping into a championship calibre car only to see the team severely under-perform. TBH I would have thought that either MSC or Rosberg would have won a race already.

Renault continue to impress me mightily. As I said a while back this was a circuit that suits renault, ferrari and RBR. and law & behold, it does. Hamilton did well to push his car up to 3rd.

I suspect that first corner will be dicey between he and Alonso, as will it be between Webber and Vettel. The run into the first corner actually suits the 2nd/4th car and it will be fireworks. either way a red flag situation in the first couple of corners in lap 1 is a distinct possibility.

This race tends to be processional, but I have high hopes it will deliver one cracker of a race. Can't wait!

:s mokin:
yes by lap 2, we should know who will win the race, as after that it just tends not to be much more than not screwing up and losing a place.

However, i anticipate the first two laps will be exciting as the drivers should know it is then or never.

As what hppened to Brawn and his cars, well, I don't know...maybe those extra few inches did not help MS all that much, and hurt Rosberg more than we know???

The amazing thing about F1 is how competitive everything is.

The sad thing is how dominant a car is when properly matched with the driver.

There was a time when team mate battles really showed something about who was "better", but now, I think it shows which driver has a car more suited to his style.

I also think the lack of testing has hurt MS as he used to test cars from early morning until after it was dark, every available chance, but now that opportunity is gone. :vader:

I think if the mac were made more friendly to Button, hamilton would be behind Button, but then that might mean Button would not be running not at the top, and would put Hamilton even lower in the field. Maybe that is the case with Rosberg, but since I have no access to all that data and stuff....well no one can do anything but speculate.

Did you notice how "cold" the relationship between Webber and Vettel after qualifying????

DazzlaF1

26th June 2010, 22:02

Have to say I thoroughly enjoyed that qualifying session.

Firstly, I felt very suprised that the Red Bulls have locked out the front row, what with Alonso and Kubica showing great pace and Red Bull saying that the track didnt suit their car but it just goes to show what happens when you have 2 drivers who give 110% (probably still smarting after Turkey) and who get the setup nailed on. Didnt expect much from the McLaren's seeing that they didnt bring many upgrades which sort of makes Hamilton's run to 3rd all the more impressive

Well done Lotus, despite it being a longer track they managed to somewhat maintain that gap between themselves and the leading car in Q1, Trulli being 2.3 seconds away and Kovalainen just 2 tenths back. I guess we can now officially say they have detached themselves from the other newbies in terms of outright pace and with that major upgrade coming for Silverstone, the Saubers and maybe the Toro Rosso's could be in their sights.

Also it was nice to see Williams competitive and at the sharp end of procedings again, the first time they've managed to get both cars into Q3 and Barrichello said afterwards that he could and should have gone even quicker if it was'nt for a slight brake problem. I guess those upgrades on that car are definitely working.

As for Mercedes, well they're already on course for the "donkeys of the race" tag, Rosberg down in 12th and Schumacher down in 15th, his worst grid position since a certain incident in Monaco 2006.

truefan72

27th June 2010, 00:32

Also it was nice to see Williams competitive and at the sharp end of procedings again, the first time they've managed to get both cars into Q3 and Barrichello said afterwards that he could and should have gone even quicker if it was'nt for a slight brake problem. I guess those upgrades on that car are definitely working.
indeed

As for Mercedes, well they're already on course for the "donkeys of the race" tag, Rosberg down in 12th and Schumacher down in 15th, his worst grid position since a certain incident in Monaco 2006.

It just seems to me that Mercedes come in with a set plan for each weekend and never deviate or adjust on the fly but instead try to figure out how to expedite that projected plan more efficient.

I know driver input is key but it seems to me that with MSC on board and Rosberg as well, their input doesn't seem to go that far. As much as I don't like MSC, i respect his race craft and his ability to setup cars. It seems like there is some internal squabble as to what the drivers are telling the team and what the team is actually doing about it.

I also suspect that brawn does not have as much leverage and authority as before and this sort of shared management style with directions coming from HQ seems to be failing ( just see toyota). just an observation, which probably belongs in a different thread.

DazzlaF1

27th June 2010, 01:25

I also suspect that brawn does not have as much leverage and authority as before and this sort of shared management style with directions coming from HQ seems to be failing ( just see toyota). just an observation, which probably belongs in a different thread.

It worked at Ferrari mainly because he and LdM were basically singing from the same hymn sheet, seemingly a perfect match. But I agree with you.

We all saw what Ross was like last season when it was all his own operation, he was calling the shots on everything and seemed like he revelled in it (he got almost similar freedom at Ferrari on the racing side if I remember). Now though I feel he is nothing more than Norbert Haug's puppet while his team slowly return to the laughing stock they were when they were known as Honda

markabilly

27th June 2010, 03:02

Maybe the problem is that Haug is insisting that Brawn must favor the German....and brawn is still trying to figure out who he meant.....

BDunnell

27th June 2010, 03:14

We all saw what Ross was like last season when it was all his own operation, he was calling the shots on everything and seemed like he revelled in it (he got almost similar freedom at Ferrari on the racing side if I remember). Now though I feel he is nothing more than Norbert Haug's puppet while his team slowly return to the laughing stock they were when they were known as Honda

Do you know, it is almost possible to forget that this was last season's championship-winning team. I mean that without a hint of irony. So far the mighty have fallen. Haug is a man for whom I have a lot of regard in motorsport terms, as is Brawn. Clearly something is up.

Saint Devote

27th June 2010, 04:27

Jenson WAS heading for fourth place until he almost oversteered off the circuit in sector three - adds up to making things more difficult than neccessary and there is nobody annoyed more than Jenson with himself.

But Jenson does have a problem and is unable to outqualify Hamilton right now. This does not bode well for him at Mclaren and I have no idea how its going to pan out. However his decision to move to Mclaren was a good move because at least he will win more grands prix.

On this horrible 21st century iteration of a "race track" and its mongaloid relative, "compulsory tyre stops"....... this is NOT motor racing.

Christian Horner - who I cant stand - did say that cherry picking from the RB06 is not a sound idea. But what else can the other teams do? They do not employ Adrian Newey and just like f1 has become, are bereft of ideas - the philospohical collapse of f1 is almost complete.

Tomorrow is Nico Rosberg's birthday - probably would be better if he went off and celebrated given the peformance of the Brawn-Illmor.

In the long history of F1, it has usually been the exception to the rule when teams have maintained good form after winning a championship. And given that the teams up front were already hard at work on the 2010 car when Brawn was struggling to maintain form in 2009, this ought to be considered a "bedding in" year for Mercedes.

Wait for 2011 before judging Schumi and the team.

Saint Devote

27th June 2010, 04:50

Spare a thought for viewers in the US - the GP will only be televised hours after it has ended because for some idiotic reasoning that showing FOUR grand prix races on a general channel will somehow attract US viewers to F1.

Let me say this LOUDLY: IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

And with f1 the way it is currently, there is more chance of a man being able to give birth!

So US viewers will have to suffer through this GP with more ads than ever, no pre-race show [although given the ineptitude of Will Buxton that is probably a blessing] and a two hour total limit.

I wish Bernie would make available the BBC feed at a pay per view price - I would pay it, gladly!

Roamy

27th June 2010, 05:02

then the other dumbass thing they did is overlap the Nascar race by a hour. JPM is on the pole there so many will be switching back and forth.

Valve Bounce

27th June 2010, 05:10

Jenson WAS heading for fourth place until he almost oversteered off the circuit in sector three - adds up to making things more difficult than neccessary and there is nobody annoyed more than Jenson with himself.

.

Let me get this straight - you get access to the pits and talk with Bunsen? COOL !

Maybe you do have the right connections that we don't fully appreciate or understand. :(

Tazio

27th June 2010, 06:03

Let me get this straight - you get access to the pits and talk with Bunsen? COOL !

Maybe you do have the right connections that we don't fully appreciate or understand. :( That's just plain mean Valve :p :
The Mercedes and Mike have broken hew ground as to how badly one can suck given thier level of success last year, or the last time since one has been an F1 pilot! :eek: :beer:

Saint Devote

27th June 2010, 06:09

Let me get this straight - you get access to the pits and talk with Bunsen? COOL !

Maybe you do have the right connections that we don't fully appreciate or understand. :(

That is one possible explanation - but another which you may comprehend is reading the comments from each team, in this case from Alexander Button, after qualifying.

Saint Devote

27th June 2010, 06:13

The Mercedes and Mike have broken hew ground as to how badly one can suck given thier level of success last year, or the last time since one has been an F1 pilot! :eek: :beer:

Actually not at all - Williams, Mclaren and Ferrari have ALL been in the position that Brawn-Illmor finds itself this season so far.

It really is not unusual.

Tazio

27th June 2010, 06:18

:rolleyes: Maybe not but it really has to suck if your Ioan or Rosberg! :dozey:

Tazio

27th June 2010, 06:30

Actually not at all - Williams, Mclaren and Ferrari have ALL been in the position that Brawn-Illmor finds itself this season so far.

It really is not unusual.
Since were on the subject of Mercedes demise. I find it just a little more than ironic that Ross Brawn and Mike were singing this same song in 2005 while a Spanish phenom under the tutelage of a very highly despised Italian. Were giving them a very serious beat down! :)
I stand corrected!

Tazio

27th June 2010, 07:45

There is hope, for Ferraris final standing in the WCC :s

Wasn't Massa faster than Fred in q1, q2? There has been a lot of talk about what has gone wrong with Massa's game. He is quite famous for slow starts, and streaks of really good racing and slumps of extended duration. It will be interesting how the options hold up for the first stint. Ferrari seems to have trouble getting the fronts up to temp. I look forward to see the order of the first pit stops. Of all the pilots I have to give credit where credit is due. The Boss appears to be able to conserve his tyres quite well, and a lot better than I thought he would compared to Button. I think this is the first real sign of maturity this Tifosi can't deny.
I think the ear studs are a bene' to LH. If you are willing to race wearing women’s jewelry you have both the confidence and, nerve to succeed!
And those that would give their left #esticle to see Massa get the better of Alonso still have a shred of hope. Because the eye injury has nothing to do with FM pace or consistency' I'm just glad that it looks like he may have found it. And like just before Spain 2008 Felipe was the laughing stock of everyone except those of us that stuck with him. He may yet take back the #1 seat from Alonso, the same way he took it away from Kimi! Just imagine if you can Kimi having to play # 2 to Felipe baby. The same may come to pass with Fred! :s mokin:

Instant Mash

27th June 2010, 08:15

Valve Bounce

27th June 2010, 08:44

That is one possible explanation - but another which you may comprehend is reading the comments from each team, in this case from Alexander Button, after qualifying.

Well, that's a let down; and here I was imagining you in the pits talking to Bunsen and watching all the action. I thought that was why you disapeared each race weekend.

Tazio

27th June 2010, 08:57

Hoping to see Massa and/or Kubica make the podium today. Red Bull seem to have the definite advantage, but it will come down to whether they can keep it together or not, I reckon.

It'd be nice to see Barrichello do well, but I don't have much confidence in the Williams' race pace.
"Obviously, reliability will be very important as this track is very tough on the cars. With the harder tyre, our car was more competitive as its behaviour inspired more confidence over the flying lap, but to have done Q3 with this compound would probably have compromised our race."

Team-mate Felipe Massa meanwhile will line-up one spot lower on the grid in fifth and he too is convinced that a rostrum result is a possibility.

"Today, we had a good car and the potential was there to do better than this fifth place. In Q1 and Q2, I was very pleased with the handling of my F10, but in Q3 I was not able to improve, mainly because of traffic that prevented me from preparing the tyres properly. It's a shame, because I could have been starting from third place tomorrow: from fifth it will be harder to fight for a podium finish, but the chance is still there within our grasp," he stated.
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/26062010/23/alonso-potential-podium.html

Massa may have just turned hid season around!
How much grief was dished out for Fred saying what Felipe says where I emboldened print?
I don't suspect that we will have a five page thread about it Ha! Ha! Ha!
People..... Where would we be without the basher?
You got to love them! :D

truefan72

27th June 2010, 09:30

Maybe the problem is that Haug is insisting that Brawn must favor the German....and brawn is still trying to figure out who he meant.....

funny :)

truefan72

27th June 2010, 09:31

It worked at Ferrari mainly because he and LdM were basically singing from the same hymn sheet, seemingly a perfect match. But I agree with you.

We all saw what Ross was like last season when it was all his own operation, he was calling the shots on everything and seemed like he revelled in it (he got almost similar freedom at Ferrari on the racing side if I remember). Now though I feel he is nothing more than Norbert Haug's puppet while his team slowly return to the laughing stock they were when they were known as Honda

how true.

Mia 01

27th June 2010, 10:45

Looking forward to the race later today, if the gearboxes of the RBR holds up and they make a clean start, theres hope for a 1-2.

For some reason I want Massa to do well today, a podium!

ShiftingGears

27th June 2010, 14:35

Oh $hit that was massive! Glad Webber and Heikki(presumably) are okay.

I am evil Homer

27th June 2010, 15:12

Hawkmoon

27th June 2010, 15:21

Ferrari need to get over it... It was a marginal call on the SC and Hamilton was penalised but they had to take their time to make sure they get it right as it ws a huge and race changing call to be made. They did it and okay Lewis got lucky with the traffic but it was all within the rules.

Maybe Alonso should bitch less on the radio and try harder to overtake the FI in front of him!

It shouldn't have taken 25 minutes to work out whether Hamilton had passed the safety car. One replay showed that.

Having said that, Hamilton didn't screw Ferrari's race, bad luck did, so yes they need to forget about which is what Alonso's race engineer suggested they do.

I am evil Homer

27th June 2010, 15:23

True but it was very marginal with the SC line. WTF were Glock and Senna up to?!?! Het outta the way!

ioan

27th June 2010, 15:30

True but it was very marginal with the SC line. WTF were Glock and Senna up to?!?! Het outta the way!

They are proving Massa was right about them being a danger on the track.

markabilly

27th June 2010, 15:31

MS setting fastest laps of race, in 17th place,

That hamilton penalty was a joke. It cost nothing to hamilton

I am evil Homer

27th June 2010, 15:32

Total brainfade by both but Glock chopping Senna was terrible.

ioan

27th June 2010, 15:33

True but it was very marginal with the SC line. WTF were Glock and Senna up to?!?! Het outta the way!

Grassi should get a penalty, he hold up both Kobayashi and Button even if he was going into the pits 500 meters later.

ioan

27th June 2010, 15:34

ioan

27th June 2010, 15:35

Stella is an idiot, he talks too Alonso as if he was his grandfather or something. He tried the same with Kimi in the past however the Finn was fast to tell him to shut it up.

christophulus

27th June 2010, 15:35

Speeding under the safety car apparently.

I am evil Homer

27th June 2010, 15:35

MS setting fastest laps of race, in 17th place,

That hamilton penalty was a joke. It cost nothing to hamilton

How so? It was the only penalty available to them. Just because it doesn't cost a driver doesn't make it the wrong penalty. I'm no Lewis fan but I think they got it right givenhow marginal it was and they seemed to take their time then take action and not a snap decision that affects the championship. Or perhaps Frentzen is biased towards Mac ; )

markabilly

27th June 2010, 15:37

What the heck is this story about 10 drivers that have to see the stewards after the race?!
If they did something wrong then penalties should be handed out, if not let them be.
Crappy FIA with it's crappy stewards.
maybe koby will be one........
for being too slow....
let us see, HK, Webber, Senna, glock, senna, hamilton,

Hawkmoon

27th June 2010, 15:38

What the heck is this story about 10 drivers that have to see the stewards after the race?!
If they did something wrong then penalties should be handed out, if not let them be.
Crappy FIA with it's crappy stewards.

Definitely. It's not good handing out penalties after the race and altering the finishig order. Either that lot were too fast behind the safety or they weren't. Why does it take until after the race to work that out?

markabilly

27th June 2010, 15:39

How so? It was the only penalty available to them. Just because it doesn't cost a driver doesn't make it the wrong penalty. I'm no Lewis fan but I think they got it right givenhow marginal it was and they seemed to take their time then take action and not a snap decision that affects the championship. Or perhaps Frentzen is biased towards Mac ; )
Simple, they waited so long to make a simple call, a call that should have been made before the SC period was over....and then they continue to wait where it does not matter, so why even bother at all :rolleyes:

ioan

27th June 2010, 15:39

Speeding under the safety car apparently.

Why not give them a penalty then?
They penalized Hamilton and everyone should be treated the same way.

I am evil Homer

27th June 2010, 15:40

Penalties and/or grid drop is the potential punishment?

ioan

27th June 2010, 15:41

Why does it take until after the race to work that out?

Because this is the FIA's favorite tactic to spice up things and make the championship closer, they can chose to give the fitting penalty to make things interesting in the overall standings.

BDunnell

27th June 2010, 15:43

How so? It was the only penalty available to them. Just because it doesn't cost a driver doesn't make it the wrong penalty.

I agree, though it should have been resolved much more quickly given the footage available. That aside, there should be no complaints about the nature of the penalty. It was served according to the rules. No need to do anything more after the race.

markabilly

27th June 2010, 15:43

commentary says,

Button, Barrichello, Hulkenberg, Kubica, Petrov, Sutil, Liuzzi and De La Rosa are all being investigated by the stewards for 'exceeding the safety car in-lap time'.

markabilly

27th June 2010, 15:45

and 200 laps later, button is still waiting for kobyoshi to pit.....

christophulus

27th June 2010, 15:47

Why not give them a penalty then?
They penalized Hamilton and everyone should be treated the same way.

I agree, it should all be sorted in the race, there's plenty of time.

The race is turning into a farce, having half the field under investigation suggests something went wrong with the SC procedure, nine drivers can't just have forgotten about the required lap time surely?

Norwegian Blue

27th June 2010, 15:49

Thought Kobayashi was gonna try a Schumacher Silverstone 1998 there for a minute, pit box behind the start line or after... :D

ioan

27th June 2010, 15:50

commentary says,

Button, Barrichello, Hulkenberg, Kubica, Petrov, Sutil, Liuzzi and De La Rosa are all being investigated by the stewards for 'exceeding the safety car in-lap time'.

This means that some drivers are being robbed of points today because the above ones were not given a penalty during the race.
WWF1 at it's best.

pino

27th June 2010, 15:52

Simple, they waited so long to make a simple call, a call that should have been made before the SC period was over....and then they continue to wait where it does not matter, so why even bother at all :rolleyes:

Exactly, the incident happened on lap 9, the safety car was out for 4 laps, and Hamilton made is drive-through on 23th lap...

ioan

27th June 2010, 15:54

Man is Alonso crappy or what?!

PS:
:laugh:

Looks like he is! :D

And Kobayashi is the real deal. :up:

ioan

27th June 2010, 15:56

Kobayashi overtook Alonso and Buemi in 2 laps!

christophulus

27th June 2010, 15:56

Massive improvement from Kobayashi this race, 7th is well deserved :up:

Edit: And Barrichello 4th for Williams! Fingers crossed he keeps it..

ioan

27th June 2010, 15:57

Fresh tyres for Kobay, but Alonso must be so pee'ed off.. :)

Alonso sat behind Buemi half the race even though the STR driver outbreaked himself twice, Kobayashi forced ALonso into a mistake and then overtook Buemi too. This is how a racer should drive instead of sitting and crying to his pit crew half a race.

BDunnell

27th June 2010, 15:57

Fantastic drive by Kobayashi. Good pace and incisive passing.

Daniel

27th June 2010, 15:58

Fantastic drive by Kobayashi. Good pace and incisive passing.
:D :D :D :D

Great driving by Kobayashi :)

I am evil Homer

27th June 2010, 15:58

Exactly, the incident happened on lap 9, the safety car was out for 4 laps, and Hamilton made is drive-through on 23th lap...

Right so SC came in on 13, so 14 was first flying lap an Hamilton had a 2 lap window after being told. So that's 6 laps in which the made the decision. Hardly a lifetime.

ShiftingGears

27th June 2010, 15:58

Excellent drive by Kobayashi!

AndyL

27th June 2010, 15:59

Could yet be 3rd for Kobayashi if all those under investigation get a 25 second penalty.

This was the first Valencia GP I've properly watched (normally clashes with the Manx GP) and I don't know what everyone was complaining about - it wasn't boring! ;)

Hawkmoon

27th June 2010, 15:59

Aside from Webber's aerial antics there wasn't much of interest. Valencia needs to go.

BDunnell

27th June 2010, 16:00

Alonso sat behind Buemi half the race even though the STR driver outbreaked himself twice, Kobayashi forced ALonso into a mistake and then overtook Buemi too. This is how a racer should drive instead of sitting and crying to his pit crew half a race.

To be fair, it did look as if Alonso simply couldn't get past Buemi at those moments. He looked unable to get up alongside, not that he wasn't trying to. But I agree about his whinging to the pits. Maybe they should just ignore him.

BDunnell

27th June 2010, 16:01

Right so SC came in on 13, so 14 was first flying lap an Hamilton had a 2 lap window after being told. So that's 6 laps in which the made the decision. Hardly a lifetime.

But there was all the time the SC was out as well.

ioan

27th June 2010, 16:01

Edit: And Barrichello 4th for Williams! Fingers crossed he keeps it..

He shouldn't keep it if he broke the rules.

markabilly

27th June 2010, 16:01

Fantastic drive by Kobayashi. Good pace and incisive passing.
yes, mkes me wonder just what ross was thinking....but the fresh tires let him put down Fred and Buemi

and still do not get the stupid penalty timing on Hamilton.....

and with 25 sec penalties being handed out post race to the ten 'speeders", wonder where that will put button in the standings

ShiftingGears

27th June 2010, 16:02

Valencia needs to go.

:up:

Daniel

27th June 2010, 16:03

I hope the penalties are grid drops next race and it doesn't affect the result this race. It would be awful for Kobay IMO.. :)
I hope they're not. I've had enough of pissy little nothing penalties

Ranger

27th June 2010, 16:04

Aside from Webber's aerial antics there wasn't much of interest. Valencia needs to go.

Well, it pretty much set up all the talking points of the race thats for sure. :\

EDIT: Apart from Kobayashi. :up:

ioan

27th June 2010, 16:04

Aside from Webber's aerial antics there wasn't much of interest. Valencia needs to go.

I enjoyed the end with 2 overtaking moves in 2 laps from Kobayashi!
It was as every bit as good as watching Sato in the SAF1 overtake Alonso in the McLaren 3 years ago! :D

ioan

27th June 2010, 16:05

and with 25 sec penalties being handed out post race to the ten 'speeders", wonder where that will put button in the standings

Who cares about Button, was he even participating in today's race?!

djparky

27th June 2010, 16:06

more entertaining than expected (mind you the others have been real bore-fests)- although quite what Kovaleinen was doing even trying to race a car 4 seconds a lap quicker is beyond me

the only thing that annoyed me was David Croft constantly referring to f******g football every 5 minutes or so- was rather hoping that watching an F1 GP I could escape people wittering on about the sodding world cup for a couple of hours

although the stewards may intervene it was brilliant to see Williams running so well, and I loved the Hulks reaction to having to retire

Daniel

27th June 2010, 16:09

truefan72

27th June 2010, 16:09

I enjoyed the end with 2 overtaking moves in 2 laps from Kobayashi!
It was as every bit as good as watching Sato in the SAF1 overtake Alonso in the McLaren 3 years ago! :D

yes, definitely the driver of the race

i can live with the hamilton ticky tack penalty,
to me the other cars should have all come in for drive thru penalties, that would have made for an excellent last few laps. i don;t understand why they need to wait until after the race when they had about 20 laps to go.

AndyL

27th June 2010, 16:11

I hope the penalties are grid drops next race and it doesn't affect the result this race. It would be awful for Kobay IMO.. :)

It'll be great for Kobayashi, he could end up 3rd! He's not under investigation. He was one of the few that didn't pit under the safety car.

markabilly

27th June 2010, 16:12

Koba moves up to third with those penalties of 25 secs, which should be automatic penalties, I gues.....

as to the rest, I gues Button might end up fourth or fifth

truefan72

27th June 2010, 16:13

yes, mkes me wonder just what ross was thinking....but the fresh tires let him put down Fred and Buemi

and still do not get the stupid penalty timing on Hamilton.....

and with 25 sec penalties being handed out post race to the ten 'speeders", wonder where that will put button in the standings

it was a good race at the end of the day and Kobayashi/sauber strategy was perfect. He might end up 3rd

Hamilton had the pace to bother Vettel today and although he might not have passed him it certainly would have been a nice duel.

As to the webber/Kovy situation. I would have to give it to webber.
1. he should know he was much quicker than kovy
2. he was behind trying to make the pass
3. he did not need to be that close to him at all, he could have moved clear to the inside and still gotten him easy
4. He did not need to match the weaving of kovy

I do think that Kovy slowed at one point, but I think although they were fighting for position, he ultimately was slowing to let the guy go bye but Webber for some reason stayed tight instead of simply making the pass.

truefan72

27th June 2010, 16:15

Yes, quite just what Kovalainen was doing not giving up his position to someone behind him I don't know

exactly. How dare he fight for position. :rolleyes:

ioan

27th June 2010, 16:15

ioan

27th June 2010, 16:18

it was a good race at the end of the day and Kobayashi/sauber strategy was perfect. He might end up 3rd

Hamilton had the pace to bother Vettel today and although he might not have passed him it certainly would have been a nice duel.

As to the webber/Kovy situation. I would have to give it to webber.
1. he should know he was much quicker than kovy
2. he was behind trying to make the pass
3. he did not need to be that close to him at all, he could have moved clear to the inside and still gotten him easy
4. He did not need to match the weaving of kovy

I do think that Kovy slowed at one point, but I think although they were fighting for position, he ultimately was slowing to let the guy go bye but Webber for some reason stayed tight instead of simply making the pass.

For some strange reason Webber always likes to make things squeezy, it must be hardcoded in his brain.

truefan72

27th June 2010, 16:18

btw what was ross brawn thinking????

They screwd MSC completely. He was on the preferred tire and as kobayashi displayed, he could have maintained 3rd for a very long time and done exactly what sauber did, potentially finishing 3rd or 4th or 6/7 on the track.

This was a horrendous call by the team and MSC has every right to be totally pissed at his team.

ioan

27th June 2010, 16:19

btw what was ross brawn thinking????

Most probably nothing, there is no other explanation.

Daika

27th June 2010, 16:20

Schumacher should have been in the top 3.

Ranger

27th June 2010, 16:24

Schumacher was rubbish yesterday but deserved much more today.

truefan72

27th June 2010, 16:26

Most probably nothing, there is no other explanation.

TBH though, now that i think of it. Ross Brawn probably was as surprised as anyone that MSC's engineer called him in. Hence the shaking of his head. but ultimately he is responsible and thus blame has to be shared for not being on top of the situation and/or overriding the decision

ioan

27th June 2010, 16:27

TBH though, now that i think of it. Ross Brawn probably was as surprised as anyone that MSC's engineer called him in. Hence the shaking of his head. but ultimately he is responsible and thus blame has to be shared for not being on top of the situation and/or overriding the decision

Maybe Shovlin was trying to help out Button gain another place?!
I hope Brawn and MS teach him a lesson during the debriefing.

I agree that Brawn needs to take the blame for what his engineers do though.

truefan72

27th June 2010, 16:36

is there any precedent for teams exceeding the delta time in the SC period?

I do recall something in Japan last year after the buemi crash or was that for speeding in a yellow zone
perhaps this is the reason for the delay the stewards could not make up their mind if it was a drive-through (which i felt it should have been) a post race 25 sec penalty ( totally anticlimactic) or a grid place penalty for the next race ( a bit excessive but would make for an interesting grid)

ioan

27th June 2010, 16:50

Thought Kobayashi was gonna try a Schumacher Silverstone 1998 there for a minute, pit box behind the start line or after... :D

That is not possible under the current rules. Drivers need to drive at least one lap on both dry weather tires, unless the race is declared wet.

Tazio

27th June 2010, 16:50

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/9530 ... 142029.jpg (http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/9530/raiuno20100627142029.jpg)[/img]

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/6645/raiuno20100627142030.jpg

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/739/raiuno20100627142031.jpg

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3601/raiuno20100627142032.jpg

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1913/raiuno20100627142033.jpg

Tazio

27th June 2010, 16:51

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5295/raiuno20100627142036.jpg

[img]http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/575/raiuno20100627142034.jpg

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3374/raiuno20100627142035.jpg

Nuff said! :)

markabilly

27th June 2010, 16:53

Webber was lucky...very

Daniel

27th June 2010, 16:55

That was just .... wow. As a racing fan you never want to see something like that but when Mark got out of his car and was OK you just had to watch the replays and just think wow.....

Mia 01

27th June 2010, 16:59

Glad Webber was unhurt.

Congrats Seb, you did it!

Kobayashi, a racer.

Daniel

27th June 2010, 17:00

Glad Webber was unhurt.

Congrats Seb, you did it!

Kobayashi, a racer.

*mumble mumble* Lewis sucks

Edited for accuracy :p

Ranger

27th June 2010, 17:02

Incredible.

Bagwan

27th June 2010, 17:03

Edited for accuracy :p

That's not funny .

AndyL

27th June 2010, 17:10

That was just .... wow. As a racing fan you never want to see something like that but when Mark got out of his car and was OK you just had to watch the replays and just think wow.....

Yeah no kidding. To see something like that then the driver just steps out of the car is an amazing testament to the safety standards today.

BDunnell

27th June 2010, 17:52

That was just .... wow. As a racing fan you never want to see something like that but when Mark got out of his car and was OK you just had to watch the replays and just think wow.....

At the very moment it happened, I was reading an article about the deaths in 1970 of Jochen Rindt and Piers Courage. Then I looked up and saw Webber's car flying through the air. It brought home how great the safety advances have been.

ioan

27th June 2010, 17:53

Yeah no kidding. To see something like that then the driver just steps out of the car is an amazing testament to the safety standards today.

Webber needs to repeat 100 'Thank you Max Mosley!'s.

DazzlaF1

27th June 2010, 17:56

Any news on the 9 drivers and possible post-race penalties yet?

turismo6

27th June 2010, 18:09

DazzlaF1

27th June 2010, 18:23

Can anyone tell if Webber's helmet make contact with the tire bundle? because it will be a testament to the helmet and hans if it did.

No doubt the teams will have a good look at the diffuser in second image.

If it did, I can only imagine it was not very substantial, the side of the car and the raised cockpit sides would have taken the brunt of it

truefan72

27th June 2010, 18:34

Any news on the 9 drivers and possible post-race penalties yet?

perhaps they were all watching the England Germany game.
This is taking far too long. We need to know what's going on!
Especially for my Fantasy results

christophulus

27th June 2010, 18:37

5 seconds penalty for all drivers under investigation over SC rule breach - apart from Glock who gets 20 seconds. More soon

http://twitter.com/noblef1

DazzlaF1

27th June 2010, 18:59

5 seconds penalty for all drivers under investigation over SC rule breach - apart from Glock who gets 20 seconds. More soon

http://twitter.com/noblef1

So on that basis, the result would be...

*penalty applied

1. Vettel
2. Hamilton ........ + 5.0
3. Button ........ + 12.6 *
4. Barrichello ........ + 25.6 *
5. Kubica ........ + 27.1 *
6. Sutil ........ + 30.1 *
7. Kobayashi ........ + 30.9
8. Alonso ........ + 32.8 (Up ONE)
9. Buemi ........ + 36.2* (Down ONE)
10. Rosberg ........ + 44.3 (Up TWO)
--------------------------------------------------
11. Massa ........ + 46.6 (Up THREE)
12. de la Rosa ........ + 47.4 * (Down TWO)
13. Alguersuari ........ + 48.2 (Up TWO)
14. Petrov ........ + 48.2 * (Down THREE)
15. Schumacher ........ + 48.8 (Up ONE)
16. Liuzzi ........ + 50.8 (Down THREE)
17. di Grassi ........ + 1 Lap
18. Chandhok ........ + 2 Laps (Up ONE)
19. Glock ........ + 2 Laps* (Down ONE)
20. Senna ........ + 2 Laps
21. Trulli ........ + 4 Laps

Doesnt apply to Hulkenberg as he retired

So basically all it changes is Alonso moves up 1 spot ahead of Buemi and de la Rosa is kicked out of the points and replaced by Rosberg, wonder what Alonso will make of that

Tazio

27th June 2010, 19:02

Chopper going inverted:

"]http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4804/raiuno20100627142050.jpg[/quote]

Saint Devote

27th June 2010, 19:07

perhaps they were all watching the England Germany game.
This is taking far too long. We need to know what's going on!
Especially for my Fantasy results

Game?
More like a rout! Looked like Germany kicked England arse all the way from Bloemfontein back to London :eek:

Tazio

27th June 2010, 19:09

here is the fullset
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/9530/raiuno20100627142029.jpg

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/6645/raiuno20100627142030.jpg

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/739/raiuno20100627142031.jpg

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3601/raiuno20100627142032.jpg

[img]] [/quote]

Tazio

27th June 2010, 19:11

][img]http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1913/raiuno20100627142033.jpg

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/575/raiuno20100627142034.jpg

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3374/raiuno20100627142035.jpg

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5295/raiuno20100627142036.jpg[/quote]

Saint Devote

27th June 2010, 19:13

Webber was lucky...very

Luck has nothing to do with it.

It was modern technology based on sound scientific principle that saved him.

The probability of an F1 driver these days even being injured slightly has happily been reduced to very low numbers to the point that they can even buy life assurance now.

Saint Devote

27th June 2010, 19:14

I hope we are not going to see endless re-plays and "analysis" of this incident!

Saint Devote

27th June 2010, 19:15

The usual race on what is one of the crappiest circuits in F1. Valencia should be STRUCK from the calendar - glad its over.

DazzlaF1

27th June 2010, 19:23

That result is now official, all 9 drivers get 5 second penalties for speeding under SC conditions, Glock's 20 second penalty was for ignoring blue flags

So all that moaning for just an extra 2 points, hardly worth the bother although if i were de la Rosa, i would be very upset at being kicked out of the point and replaced by someone who on the weekends performances clearly did not deserve to.

ioan

27th June 2010, 19:29

5 seconds penalty for all drivers under investigation over SC rule breach - apart from Glock who gets 20 seconds. More soon

http://twitter.com/noblef1

What a joke.
Where does this 5 seconds stuff come from?
Wasn't it like it's a drive through during the race or a 25 (or 20 this season) seconds penalty after the race?!

At least they proved me right, they wait until after the race so that they can decide the number of seconds they will be penalized, in order to suit the show's agenda.

What a crappy show, this is! :down:

christophulus

27th June 2010, 19:35

More: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84857

...have been penalised for "failing to stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU when the Safety Car was deployed."

Well, I say "more", but it doesn't really explain why only a five second penalty, though after the Schumacher incident in Monaco there was a lot of noise made about the fact in the "code" (or something) that the stewards can hand down any penalty they wish.

I can only assume the stewards found out about that once the press starting digging into the rule book, as there have been several infractions in the past that didn't warrant a 25 sec penalty. :p

ioan

27th June 2010, 19:38

Well this is a penalty to go along with the FIA's banning an fining of USF1. :down:

Saint Devote

27th June 2010, 19:40

What a joke.
Where does this 5 seconds stuff come from?
Wasn't it like it's a drive through during the race or a 25 (or 20 this season) seconds penalty after the race?!

At least they proved me right, they wait until after the race so that they can decide the number of seconds they will be penalized, in order to suit the show's agenda.

What a crappy show, this is! :down:

Of course its crappy.
And this is the way F1 is going.

The biggest affront to f1 supporters is that there is no explanation as to how they arrive at the standards they apply.

But this can only change when the teams obtain some courage and put a stop to this over governing of a sport - or what was a sport. Alonso's statement unfortunately still rings true.

Today was hopefully the lowest point of the season at what is a totally ugly and useless circuit.

Tazio

27th June 2010, 19:46

I hope we are not going to see endless re-plays and "analysis" of this incident!
I hope not also. For whatever reason people ended up where they ended up That is the deal! Ferrari took a big hit but that's the way life can go sometimes. Not a perfect sports weekend for the poms- Night Freakin'- mare for the Italians, us Yanks we did as poorly as we could. I was thinking about something when went on a walk after the race. Sponge-Bob had his fair share of chopping duels I remember one with Sato that was just one that sticks in my mind. But he was always on guys about safety. Ever since he left us it's like who is going to carry the torch for Sponge-Bob, the do as I say kind of guy. I thought it was Webber, until he went
75 year old Mario Andretti on Kovy's @$$!

G'day ;)

Saint Devote

27th June 2010, 20:03

We were done up like kippers and sent packing... Although it wasn't London, more like Birmingham.. :p

But the score ought to have been at least been 4 - 2 and at one stage the Brits really looked on the attack.

Sigh - I was hoping for the Brits to win [London is my favorite city after Tel Aviv] - the Germs play well - my favorite team is The Netherlands now [Zandvoort one of my alltime favorite tracks].

Saint Devote

27th June 2010, 20:13

But no matter what, I think that Lewis has won the battle at Mclaren. He drove very well today, kept his mind together and was quick all weekend.

Jenson HAS to push harder because at this juncture I cannot see him beating Hamilton in qualifying and that is the biggest problem right now. He seems to have regular problems during qualifying.

jens

27th June 2010, 21:05

This was the best Valencia race we have had so far. It looks like it keeps getting better with each year. :)

Red Bull has an amazing consistency in failing to get 1-2s in races after nailing the laps in qualifying. Shame that Webber failed to properly find his position on the track at the start and then basically all race. Sad that especially Massa's weekend was ruined in such fashion, once the Brazilian finally showed signs of improvement that have been waited for all season and which is why his contract was extended.

Where did the pace of Williams pace suddenly come from? After miserable weekends suddenly only a mere few tenths behind the top cars pace-wise. Hülkenberg seems to gradually become more confident and competitive compared to Barrichello with each race weekend.

Button did his usual trick of nicking a podium position with a strong finish to the race after an average qualifying performance. For how long will that keep him in the title hunt, remains to be seen.

DazzlaF1

27th June 2010, 21:12

Where did the pace of Williams pace suddenly come from? After miserable weekends suddenly only a mere few tenths behind the top cars pace-wise. Hülkenberg seems to gradually become more confident and competitive compared to Barrichello with each race weekend.

They came with a few but very significant updates (most importantly, their own interpretation of the blow-diffuser exhaust system) and they seem to have done the trick.

Saint Devote

27th June 2010, 21:25

This was the best Valencia race we have had so far. It looks like it keeps getting better with each year. :)

Getting better relative to what? The 1981 Las Vegas car park?

There was nothing to recommend this unless you favor safety car periods and the heavy handedness of governance.

F1boat

27th June 2010, 21:38

Actually I liked the race last year. Maybe because it was very emotional to see Rubens winning.

jens

27th June 2010, 21:50

Getting better relative to what? The 1981 Las Vegas car park?

Relative to previous Valencia races: 2010 > 2009 > 2008.

truefan72

27th June 2010, 22:31

So on that basis, the result would be...

*penalty applied

1. Vettel
2. Hamilton ........ + 5.0
3. Button ........ + 12.6 *
4. Barrichello ........ + 25.6 *
5. Kubica ........ + 27.1 *
6. Sutil ........ + 30.1 *
7. Kobayashi ........ + 30.9
8. Alonso ........ + 32.8 (Up ONE)
9. Buemi ........ + 36.2* (Down ONE)
10. Rosberg ........ + 44.3 (Up TWO)
--------------------------------------------------
11. Massa ........ + 46.6 (Up THREE)
12. de la Rosa ........ + 47.4 * (Down TWO)
13. Alguersuari ........ + 48.2 (Up TWO)
14. Petrov ........ + 48.2 * (Down THREE)
15. Schumacher ........ + 48.8 (Up ONE)
16. Liuzzi ........ + 50.8 (Down THREE)
17. di Grassi ........ + 1 Lap
18. Chandhok ........ + 2 Laps (Up ONE)
19. Glock ........ + 2 Laps* (Down ONE)
20. Senna ........ + 2 Laps
21. Trulli ........ + 4 Laps

Doesnt apply to Hulkenberg as he retired

So basically all it changes is Alonso moves up 1 spot ahead of Buemi and de la Rosa is kicked out of the points and replaced by Rosberg, wonder what Alonso will make of that

lol 5 seconds pathetic. that's all you get for?

funny enough since Alonso is the benefactor here ( and kobayashi the downright loser) alonso will not be complaining, he will not say the race is a scandal and all the other nonsense he was spewing about SC violations

To me this is a pathetic justice, either they all get 25 second penalties or 5 grid slot drops, but how Hamilton gets a drive thru penalty and then these guys only get 5 seconds for effectively the same kind of SC violation is amazing. Kobayashi was robbed of a deserved 3rd place.

christophulus

27th June 2010, 22:31

Relative to previous Valencia races: 2010 > 2009 > 2008.

On that basis the 2033 GP should be a cracker :p

ioan

27th June 2010, 23:00

lol 5 seconds pathetic. that's all you get for?

funny enough since Alonso is the benefactor here ( and kobayashi the downright loser) alonso will not be complaining, he will not say the race is a scandal and all the other nonsense he was spewing about SC violations

To me this is a pathetic justice, either they all get 25 second penalties or 5 grid slot drops, but how Hamilton gets a drive thru penalty and then these guys only get 5 seconds for effectively the same kind of SC violation is amazing. Kobayashi was robbed of a deserved 3rd place.

This is how FIA justice works, or doesn't work.
it pains to say it but with Mosley there was a bit more consistency than we get with Todt as FIA president. Nowadays it looks like everyone does what it pleases and no one cares.

AndyL

27th June 2010, 23:16

There was nothing to recommend this unless you favor safety car periods and the heavy handedness of governance.

Kobayashi vs Alonso?

steveaki13

28th June 2010, 00:56

Head lines tomorrow will read.

"Best Valencia GP ever"

but we know the truth :s nore:

ShiftingGears

28th June 2010, 04:46

Five seconds?? Odd penalty...

Saint Devote

28th June 2010, 05:02

I think Kamui will agree that it is the best Valencia race ever, so will Vettel.

Biggest disappointment has to be the mess created by the incompetence of the FIA officials.

For the drivers, I was so disappointed for Schumi as his pitstop coincided with the closure of the pits.

I hate the Valencia circuit because it is a flat concreted wall lined empty structure bereft of anything worthwhile. Just goddam ugly.

On a day when sporting officials show up their incompetence with no recourse - just like real politics governing over the stupid majority.

airshifter

28th June 2010, 22:25

This penalty issue really sucks. It almost seems as if they miss the obvious yet give penalties for nothing other times.

I'm still curious about the pit sequence, and how that affected the race. Didn't Lewis pit virtually alone since he had passed the safety car?

If anyone has the pit times I'd like to see them... Kubica got nailed in the pits but I've yet to figure out why.

AndyL

29th June 2010, 12:14

Kubica got nailed in the pits but I've yet to figure out why.

Apparently the team were ready for Petrov to come in so had to swap the tyres over, hence Kubica losing a couple of places.
http://www.renaultf1.com/Post-Race-Debrief-with-Alan.html

ArrowsFA1

29th June 2010, 13:01

This is how FIA justice works, or doesn't work.
it pains to say it but with Mosley there was a bit more consistency than we get with Todt as FIA president.
I don't see any difference in consistency. What I see is a system of rules and penalties which has remained largely unchanged since Jean Todt took over the FIA Presidency.

It was often said that Max liked the rules to be open to interpretation, so that he could interpret those rules, and impose variable penalties, as and when he saw fit. That is the system Todt inherited, and is the one that the FIA worked with on Sunday.

AndyL

29th June 2010, 13:23

Saint Devote

29th June 2010, 13:27

Viewing Lewis - SC as he went by, there was no infringement because he had already just passed the SC BEFORE it - the SC - had reached the end of the SC line.

markabilly

29th June 2010, 15:17

I hope not also. For whatever reason people ended up where they ended up That is the deal! Ferrari took a big hit but that's the way life can go sometimes. Not a perfect sports weekend for the poms- Night Freakin'- mare for the Italians, us Yanks we did as poorly as we could. I was thinking about something when went on a walk after the race. Sponge-Bob had his fair share of chopping duels I remember one with Sato that was just one that sticks in my mind. But he was always on guys about safety. Ever since he left us it's like who is going to carry the torch for Sponge-Bob, the do as I say kind of guy. I thought it was Webber, until he went
75 year old Mario Andretti on Kovy's @$$!

G'day ;)
Mario was a youngster at age 63, when he did his eight or nine backflips at 225 mph at Indy :D

markabilly

29th June 2010, 15:21

The kind of humor, you aussies would appreciate...

here is the fullset

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/6645/raiuno20100627142030.jpg

[img]] [/quote

Red bull gives you wings....but mark give red bull wings...

markabilly

29th June 2010, 15:24

here is the fullset
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/9530/raiuno20100627142029.jpg

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/6645/raiuno20100627142030.jpg

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3601/raiuno20100627142032.jpg

[img]] [/quote]

I think it was Paul Newman who said after a crash, that "brakes lose some of their effectiveness, when you are upside down...."

ArrowsFA1

29th June 2010, 15:51

Reminds me of this:

Nj7TewU5AVc

Tazio

30th June 2010, 01:48

Reminds me of this:

Nj7TewU5AVc

And the real distinction is Patrese assisted Nige to a WDC
where Fred actually contested it! :dozey:

Nice vid arrows :up:

tintop

30th June 2010, 09:53

The funny thing about this thread is that it doesn't exonerate Vettel one iota for the wreck that he caused with Webber in the previous race. :)

tintop

30th June 2010, 09:58

This is how FIA justice works, or doesn't work.
it pains to say it but with Mosley there was a bit more consistency than we get with Todt as FIA president. Nowadays it looks like everyone does what it pleases and no one cares.

Oh, Mosely was very consistant, but certainly not impartial.

e2mtt

30th June 2010, 18:02

Valencia sure produces boring racing. Strange how some tracks are just so impossible to overtake on, despite not being overly narrow or slow.

truefan72

30th June 2010, 18:48

Valencia sure produces boring racing. Strange how some tracks are just so impossible to overtake on, despite not being overly narrow or slow.

I thought the race was far from boring and Kobayashi showed how to overtake cars.

e2mtt

30th June 2010, 19:03

I thought the race was far from boring and Kobayashi showed how to overtake cars.

I'm never so bored of an F1 races that I don't watch the whole thing... However Kobayashi only made 2 overtakes when his tires were dramatically better then those he was overtaking.

There was extremely few overtakings, despite the fact that the start & SC had scrambled the field pretty well. It was especially striking how many times a car following would get a tow, dive under in braking, the announces would get excited, and then the next camera angle would show both cars exiting the corner with the order unchanged.

Saint Devote

1st July 2010, 04:26

Oh, Mosely was very consistant, but certainly not impartial.

:D Max could not of said it better! Think about running for political office.

airshifter

1st July 2010, 04:50

Just thinking again about the 9 drivers who got those 5 second penalties for exceeding the delta time in the final sector when the safety car was deployed.

All the debate I've seen about that has been why the penalty was only 5 seconds. But was a penalty justified at all?

We know Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso and Massa got the safety car message too late to pit. Kubica was the first driver able to pit, but he was only a couple of seconds behind Massa, so how could he possibly have slowed down enough to match the delta time? In fact all the drivers who got penalised had been within 25 seconds of the lead on the previous lap, so must surely have already been in the final sector when the safety car was deployed. I can't see how it's reasonable to expect drivers to match a delta time in a sector that they've already started at racing speed.

And what about Alguersuari - he was behind all the drivers who got penalised, but didn't pit and instead completed the lap with a time within 1 second of his previous lap time. If they had exceeded the delta then so did he, I can't see how it makes any difference (in safety terms) whether you pit or not after apparently going too fast. However Alguesuari didn't get penalised.

Great points on the issues with the delta times being impossible to meet at a late stage. Beyond that I'm still confused as to how some drivers could have been subject to penalty at all. There are rules concerning following distances during the safety car period, and behavior during that time. If Kubica was the first to even attempt to match the delta times, anyone behind him could have been subject to penalty for slowing too far behind him.

There has to be a better way than what they did with this race.

And thanks for the scoop on Kubicas pit stop. Seems like a bonehead move for Renault, and a shame it messed up a good performance.