Reprimand shmeprimand

[fandango]

I wasn't that long ago that Hamilton and Vettel got a reprimand for how they raced down the pitlane. In yesterday's Canadian GP Hamilton and Alonso did the same thing and were punished with - nothing. So what does a reprimand mean?

With short tyre change-only pitstops like this, surely it's only a matter of time before there's a bad accident in the pitlane. The stewards and /or rulemakers really need to look at this potential accident.

[markabilly]

yes, in all the other stuff, I forgot about this....agree 100%

[Daniel]

Very inconsistent.....

[wedge]

There was nothing wrong with Alonso and Hamilton. They're racers.

The problem is when you push your luck when Vettel tried to push Hamliton out of the way and into garage and mechanics

[Zico]

If anything, its the teams fault for releasing him into Alonso's path, I'd imagine they would have been on the radio immediately telling him to yield to Fernando which it looked like he did.. probably the reason for Lewis/McLaren evading punishment?

I do agree tho.. there is no consistancy there.

[Mia 01]

If anything, its the teams fault for releasing him into Alonso's path, I'd imagine they would have been on the radio immediately telling him to yield to Fernando which it looked like he did.. probably the reason for Lewis/McLaren evading punishment?

I do agree tho.. there is no consistancy there.

I agree, it was a dangerous release of MacLaren, they deserved at least a reprimand. But as it was the mighty Lewis there was no reason.

[Zico]

I agree, it was a dangerous release of MacLaren, they deserved at least a reprimand. But as it was the mighty Lewis there was no reason.

You mean you think he gets special treatment? I dont think so.. look at MSC in Canada, no reprimand for naughty driving and yet he gets a punishment in Monaco for something totally undeserving/vague rules. I think it just shows once again how inconsistant the Stewards/FIA are.

[UltimateDanGTR]

dangerous release by mclaren again....though like in china, it looked so close that I'm not convinced they could've done much about it (almost simultaneous again.) they need to make their pit stops faster though, too many slow ones this season.

after that Lewis didn't have the length of pitlane like in china to yield without going ridiculously slow, and this time the driver he was up against (alonso) wasn't pushing him or doing anything stupid that I could see, unfortunate incident but they both did the best they could and no one was hurt. having said this, if we put mclaren at the end of the pitlane it wouldn't be such a problem.

[555-04Q2]

Its not called a circus for nothing :p :

[Retro Formula 1]

dangerous release by mclaren again....though like in china, it looked so close that I'm not convinced they could've done much about it (almost simultaneous again.) they need to make their pit stops faster though, too many slow ones this season.

after that Lewis didn't have the length of pitlane like in china to yield without going ridiculously slow, and this time the driver he was up against (alonso) wasn't pushing him or doing anything stupid that I could see, unfortunate incident but they both did the best they could and no one was hurt. having said this, if we put mclaren at the end of the pitlane it wouldn't be such a problem.

Good points.

The problem is that Lewis seems to get a bit of wheelspin on release which is costing him ground. Alonso was released fractionally ahead but not in the fast lane so McLaren were correct to release. Hamilton and Alonso both drove sensibly and no danger with Hamilton yielding the place to Fernando as he needed to.

See, if you don't have Vettel moving over like he has in a couple of GP, then there's no danger and no problem. I've always been a fan of the young German but more and more he's becoming the new Schumacher for all the wrong reasons.

[truefan72]

Good points.

The problem is that Lewis seems to get a bit of wheelspin on release which is costing him ground. Alonso was released fractionally ahead but not in the fast lane so McLaren were correct to release. Hamilton and Alonso both drove sensibly and no danger with Hamilton yielding the place to Fernando as he needed to.

See, if you don't have Vettel moving over like he has in a couple of GP, then there's no danger and no problem. I've always been a fan of the young German but more and more he's becoming the new Schumacher for all the wrong reasons.

well said

[ArrowsFA1]

See, if you don't have Vettel moving over like he has in a couple of GP, then there's no danger and no problem.
Perhaps Red Bull should check Vettel's steering. It does seem to pull to the right at times :p

[UltimateDanGTR]

Good points.

The problem is that Lewis seems to get a bit of wheelspin on release which is costing him ground. Alonso was released fractionally ahead but not in the fast lane so McLaren were correct to release. Hamilton and Alonso both drove sensibly and no danger with Hamilton yielding the place to Fernando as he needed to.

See, if you don't have Vettel moving over like he has in a couple of GP, then there's no danger and no problem. I've always been a fan of the young German but more and more he's becoming the new Schumacher for all the wrong reasons.

yup totally agree. If a situation like that occurs again and both drivers act maturely like that in the situation, there is no problem. Vettel has done a couple of daft things this year, but actually, who hasnt in their career? hopefully like most, he will learn from these stupid and needless errors.

[Big Ben]

I have no problem with some inconsistency here. Why does it bother you that FIA quit handing out fake penalties?

[52Paddy]

I have no problem with some inconsistency here. Why does it bother you that FIA quit handing out fake penalties?

When watching a race, it's good to have guidelines (i.e. rules) at least for calling judgement when an incident like this occurs. If there is no clarification of this rule, are all teams just supposed to release their cars ASAP, paying no heed to other cars in the pitlane? I think not! It's potential accidents we're talking about here.

[Mia 01]

When watching a race, it's good to have guidelines (i.e. rules) at least for calling judgement when an incident like this occurs. If there is no clarification of this rule, are all teams just supposed to release their cars ASAP, paying no heed to other cars in the pitlane? I think not! It's potential accidents we're talking about here.

Godd post.

And, first take pole with so little fuel that he have to stop the car right there, then one moore of thoose pitlane squizze and brushes who is Lewis signum. Not a fine, reprimand or penalty for Lewis.

[SGWilko]

this time the driver he was up against (alonso) wasn't pushing him or doing anything stupid

Therein lies the answer.

[Big Ben]

When watching a race, it's good to have guidelines (i.e. rules) at least for calling judgement when an incident like this occurs. If there is no clarification of this rule, are all teams just supposed to release their cars ASAP, paying no heed to other cars in the pitlane? I think not! It's potential accidents we're talking about here.

My point was they should not pretend their doing something about it. Either give them real penalties or let them be.

[markabilly]

need to require the car enterring the pitlane to yield right of way to car already in pitlane who is in front or coming along side. To yield, the car must immediately permit the other car to go in front and move behind him

This stuff is just asking for an accident into a slew of pitworkers, with tragic results

Penalty should be automatic stop and go.

MS passes FA on a race track, within the rules PENALTY, when there was no safetfy concern or even broken rule.


and hamilton once again tries to race with someone down pitlane.....stupid is as stupid does; in this case(s), the only thing dumber is the FIA

[fandango]

My point was they should not pretend their doing something about it. Either give them real penalties or let them be.

Exactly. A reprimand means nothing, so they should give some kind of warning which has some meaning and will lead to an automatic consequence if the the action is repeated.

The other point is that I think they are risking too much by allowing this in the pitlane. Basically, the drivers can get away with doing things in the pitlane that they wouldn't be able to do under a yellow flag.

In this particular case, I don't think McLaren could have avoided the situation as the reaction time is so short, and both drivers were thankfully challenging in a fair and safe way, but imagine the same thing with any combination of Schumacher, Vettel and Kobayashi.

[wedge]

When watching a race, it's good to have guidelines (i.e. rules) at least for calling judgement when an incident like this occurs. If there is no clarification of this rule, are all teams just supposed to release their cars ASAP, paying no heed to other cars in the pitlane? I think not! It's potential accidents we're talking about here.

50/50

Could've gone either way.

But I'm glad common sense prevailled because the raced side by side and it wasn't as if Alonso had to slam the brakes when Lewis pulled out.

I feel a 2 lane pit road should be mandatory as you see on ovals in America.

[52Paddy]

50/50I feel a 2 lane pit road should be mandatory as you see on ovals in America.

Or perhaps move the pit road further away from the mechanics. They're the ones at risk. With the pit road in such close proximity to the pit box/mechanics, an incident between two drivers exiting the pits has a good chance of involving some poor sod outside the garage.

[Tazio]

You don't need a parachute to skydive.
You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
I here you Bro!
Jumping out of an airplane with a parachute on is such a cop-out :eek:
All the thrill of commiting suicide without the commitment! :dozey:

[52Paddy]

I here you Bro!
Jumping out of an airplane with a parachute on is such a cop-out :eek:
All the thrill of commiting suicide without the commitment! :dozey:

Yeah :p :

[SGWilko]

Yeah :p :

As an aside, why is suicide a criminal offence?

[52Paddy]

As an aside, why is suicide a criminal offence?

Possibly because of the distress it causes innocent people in the aftermath. Or maybe because the family members are considered to have caused manslaughter or something similar.

But it makes no sense to charge anybody with an offence for the act of suicide performed. However, if someone was found responsible of bullying the victim and driving them to do what they did, I agree justice should be served.

Definitely for another thread though.

[markabilly]

As an aside, why is suicide a criminal offence?
to prosecute those who try but do not try hard enough

Much like bayonetting the wounded after a battle...much like posters do here to drivers, butawella ithink umustasorta knewthat, already :s mokin:

And to think that if vettel and webber (or someones elser, since they both should not be there at the same time) had their little "touch" in the pits instead of the track....how many go tumbling down :(

I wouldadd thatif yougo afalling more than four floors down, straight on the hard concrete, you have nochance to survive, so save your money for your heirs, and do NOt go jumping out of planes with out without 'achute

[Tazio]

with out without 'achute

Gesundheit! :)

[ArrowsFA1]

and hamilton once again tries to race with someone down pitlane.....stupid is as stupid does; in this case(s), the only thing dumber is the FIA
Apart from the initial acceleration away from the pit box it's impossible to "race with someone down pitlane" because of the speed limiter.

Alonso and Hamilton showed in Canada that it's perfectly safe to exit pitlane alongside each other.

[Mia 01]

Apart from the initial acceleration away from the pit box it's impossible to "race with someone down pitlane" because of the speed limiter.

Alonso and Hamilton showed in Canada that it's perfectly safe to exit pitlane alongside each other.

Far far from it, one time out of ten if that is possible.

[SGWilko]

Or perhaps move the pit road further away from the mechanics. They're the ones at risk. With the pit road in such close proximity to the pit box/mechanics, an incident between two drivers exiting the pits has a good chance of involving some poor sod outside the garage.

Now, that depends on who is out in the pitlane, after the patbox of the two guys going down the pit lane side by side.

It only appears to be Vettel ho likes turning into folk in the pitlane..... (and by that, I don't mean he morphs into - Barry Humphries - fer examples, but steers the car into the other guys path.....)

[SGWilko]

Far far from it, one time out of ten if that is possible.

If you try to 'race' in the pitlane - i.e overtake - the only logical outcome will be a pitlane speeding offence, which is usually a drivethrough.

As I see it, it's far easier to keep your finger on the limiter button, and run side-by-side should that situation re-occur.

And provided your opponent has their brain engaged and does not turn into you, there is virtually no risk.

Unless your wheel comes off, and you don't need another car by your side for that to happen....

[markabilly]

Exactly. A reprimand means nothing, so they should give some kind of warning which has some meaning and will lead to an automatic consequence if the the action is repeated.

The other point is that I think they are risking too much by allowing this in the pitlane. Basically, the drivers can get away with doing things in the pitlane that they wouldn't be able to do under a yellow flag.

In this particular case, I don't think McLaren could have avoided the situation as the reaction time is so short, and both drivers were thankfully challenging in a fair and safe way, but imagine the same thing with any combination of Schumacher, Vettel and Kobayashi.
The only post left that makes any sense

Imagine if an accident like vettel-webber happenned in the pits from just the slightest of contact, and you have a real problem with the question of how many and not if. Of course we all would have plenty of keyboard pounding about who moved over first, yaddaayda.

But hey, the mechanics are just no name guys anyway. They are not our heroes.....just fodder

no one can remember the names of the people who have died in fatal f1 race accidents since Senna had his fatal accident.

I bet none of you can even remember the number :rolleyes:

[markabilly]

Apart from the initial acceleration away from the pit box it's impossible to "race with someone down pitlane" because of the speed limiter.

Alonso and Hamilton showed in Canada that it's perfectly safe to exit pitlane alongside each other.
Precisely idiotic....only said because we must defend hamilton shennigans no matter who gets killed.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Precisely idiotic....only said because we must defend hamilton shennigans no matter who gets killed.

so what do you think Hamilton should have done in the situation then?

[SGWilko]

Precisely idiotic....only said because we must defend hamilton shennigans no matter who gets killed.

Only because you think that way.

The split second nature of pit stops, and teams having to react to competitors as a result of the no re-fueling and tyre regs, means simultaneous releases are increasingly likely.

If it has been demonstrated it CAN be safe to run two a breast when the two drivers are sensible, where is the issue?

[SGWilko]

so what do you think Hamilton should have done in the situation then?

Worn a pair of 'Pat Butcher' earrings!!??

[SGWilko]

so what do you think Hamilton should have done in the situation then?

I note your Sig, you are not suggesting that the England national team will make it to the final are you?

Get real! ;)

[UltimateDanGTR]

I note your Sig, you are not suggesting that the England national team will make it to the final are you?

Get real! ;)

ofcourse Im not! dont be so absurd! :D hopefully it will be something like spain vs brazil, that'd be a fun match...

pat butcher earings would suit lewis perfectly, by the way.

anyway, back on topic...

[markabilly]

Heads still up the ......when drivers are sensible?????Schuie passed FA on the last lap, with complete safety, but if an accident had occurred the workers were still behind steel barricades...20 second penalty......but we got racers, repeatedly, racing in the pits....

In Austria, Mark Donohue, as many many will remeber and many others know, died as a result of an accident.

How many others died that weekend in the race?

what are their names?

I will give you a hint ....the number was four.

[ArrowsFA1]

Imagine if an accident like vettel-webber happenned in the pits from just the slightest of contact...
Yes, the consequences could be awful, which is why Vettel turning towards Hamilton in the pitlane was deserving of sanction. It was a totally unecessary move given that both drivers were driving on the pitlane speed limiter. Moving across to block a driver who was never going to overtake in the pitlane is dangerous, and that kind of move by Vettel should not be defended IMHO.

Precisely idiotic....only said because we must defend hamilton shennigans no matter who gets killed.
No. Said because the evidence was there for everyone to see in Canada that two drivers can exit the pit lane side by side perfectly safely.

You only have to remember Giovanni Amadeo to know how dangerous the pit lane can be. The Osella mechanic was killed during the 1981 Belgian GP weekend when he stumbled back off the pit wall into the path of Carlos Reutemann's Williams.

Watch any pit stops before the pitlane speed limit was introduced and you'll be astounded how rapidly the cars pass within inches of people, not all mechancis, gathered in the pitlane.

The pitlane now is a very safe place when compared with those days, even more so now that refuelling is no more, but it is still a very competitive environment.

[Retro Formula 1]

Mark, you're being a bit silly here by suggesting people are defending Hamilton over killing people. Get a bit of a grip on reality please. The two cars were released at about the same time, were side by side an the limiter until both were out of the pit lane where Lewis ceded his position.

Both drivers behaved correctly and there was no incident unlike when Vettel moved over in a dangerous and reckless manner putting peoples safety at risk.

Surely, in these incidents, which are unavoidable, it is better to maintain position and speed until out of the pit lane to avoid any potential issues. Isn't it more dangerous to fluctuate your speed and line rather than maintain constant direction and velocity?

As for F1's safety record since Ayrton and Rolands death (people tend to forget him as well) I can only think of 2 Marshalls that have been killed. One in Monza in 2000 was hit by a wheel which lead to wheel tethers being introduced and another Marshall was hit by the same thing the next year.

For a sport that is advertised as dangerous, and spectated at trackside by Millions since 1994, it has an excellent record and one which must be preserved. There will always be a risk in Motorsport and it needs to be minimised but not at the expense of killing the sport itself.

just for the record, the most dangerous sport in the world is Lawn Bowls which accounts for thousands of deaths and serious injuries each year. Shall we ban that?

[markabilly]

Yes, the consequences could be awful, which is why Vettel turning towards Hamilton in the pitlane was deserving of sanction. It was a totally unecessary move given that both drivers were driving on the pitlane speed limiter. Moving across to block a driver who was never going to overtake in the pitlane is dangerous, and that kind of move by Vettel should not be defended IMHO.

No. Said because the evidence was there for everyone to see in Canada that two drivers can exit the pit lane side by side perfectly safely.

You only have to remember Giovanni Amadeo to know how dangerous the pit lane can be. The Osella mechanic was killed during the 1981 Belgian GP weekend when he stumbled back off the pit wall into the path of Carlos Reutemann's Williams.

Watch any pit stops before the pitlane speed limit was introduced and you'll be astounded how rapidly the cars pass within inches of people, not all mechancis, gathered in the pitlane.

The pitlane now is a very safe place when compared with those days, even more so now that refuelling is no more, but it is still a very competitive environment.
first you got to take a shot at vettel, when it was hamilton was again, getting out late and into vettel....more evidence of trying to defend hamilton no matter what...

And it is safe to race wheel to wheel with a another driver provided both give way...not like the vettel webber incident, where no matter how loud everyone screeches, the whole accident could have easily been avoided had webber given up a few inches....but that was ON A RACE TRACK

race tracks are for racing side by side; pits are for pitting

and when a third car is released and goes side by side with the other two, that will also be okay, as long as the drivers are sensible....and the mechanics and everyone else get out of the way....but, hey those guys are no names anyway....

PS: do not bother with Wikie, those dead are not even mentioned

[fandango]

Yes, the consequences could be awful, which is why Vettel turning towards Hamilton in the pitlane was deserving of sanction. .......

I agree, but neither he nor Hamilton were punished. And Hamilton has done exactly the same thing again. As he should, because the stewards are giving him the message that it's okay.

[markabilly]

just for the record, the most dangerous sport in the world is Lawn Bowls which accounts for thousands of deaths and serious injuries each year. Shall we ban that?

yeah, lawn bowls, those old farts tossing their little balls are always stroking out.....

but we ban that, how are they going to play with their balls?




methinks you been spoofed by something on the internent.......

[Retro Formula 1]

Update - I can find no proof of the 4 spectators you mentioned Mark. In Aus 7 spectators were slightly injured.

I have found the official FIA circuits and safety report covering the period.

http://www.atlasf1.com/news/safety.html

During the period from 1994, there have been about 1,500,000 racing kilometers with 2 fatalities. This doesn't include practice and testing which would be 10's of millions of kilometres more.

[ArrowsFA1]

first you got to take a shot at vettel, when it was hamilton was again, getting out late and into vettel....more evidence of trying to defend hamilton no matter what...
My view is that they could have gone down the pitlane side by side perfectly safely were it not for one driver's move across the pitlane towards his rival. That move caused the potentially dangererous situation. The driver making that move was Vettel, not Hamilton.

You can certainly argue that Hamilton could have conceded position and fallen in behind Vettel earlier, and I assume that is why he was reprimanded along with Vettel.

In Canada we saw a very similar situation which passed off with no incident and no involvement by the stewards. Why? What was the difference between the two incidents in your view?

[markabilly]

Update - I can find no proof of the 4 spectators you mentioned Mark. In Aus 7 spectators were slightly injured.

I have found the official FIA circuits and safety report covering the period.

http://www.atlasf1.com/news/safety.html

During the period from 1994, there have been about 1,500,000 racing kilometers with 2 fatalities. This doesn't include practice and testing which would be 10's of millions of kilometres more.
interesting is that they can not even keep proper track of the people killed.

Donohue's car killed one person and three other died in another incident.

[markabilly]

My view is that they could have gone down the pitlane side by side perfectly safely were it not for one driver's move across the pitlane towards his rival. That move caused the potentially dangererous situation. The driver making that move was Vettel, not Hamilton.

You can certainly argue that Hamilton could have conceded position and fallen in behind Vettel earlier, and I assume that is why he was reprimanded along with Vettel.

In Canada we saw a very similar situation which passed off with no incident and no involvement by the stewards. Why? What was the difference between the two incidents in your view?
Nothing. Both presented the same INCREASED risk of injury to others.

And many a race is completed without any cars getting of the track, and that will happen if the drivers drive sensibly, so why have safety barriers?

I remember just anyone walking up to the edge of some race tracks in the 1960's , especially at Spa and the Ring, with cameras and taking photos....later one had to get a special permit to do the same....but often, there were no barriers between them and the track.

Seldom did any of them get killed...(indeed, according to the inacurate FIA records from 1963 to 1973, no specators were killed, so why can I not go stand on the edge of the La rouge or the bus stop, like in the good ole days..)...

but when they did, nobody remembers their names, and it appears not even the FIA (or whoever above) can remember how many.....so it is just a few no-name mechanics....

[markabilly]

and it is the nature of the beast, they will always be a hamilton, vettel, et al, who will try to stick it where it will not fit, and a webber, schuie or whoever, who will always be more than willing to chop it off....so if they are going to go at it, let it be on the track....

what I do not get is all these stupid rules about speed limits in the pits...the drivers are so well protected, if they hit someone, the driver is not likely to get hurt....

[SGWilko]

and it is the nature of the beast, they will always be a hamilton, vettel, et al, who will try to stick it where it will not fit, and a webber, schuie or whoever, who will always be more than willing to chop it off....so if they are going to go at it, let it be on the track....

what I do not get is all these stupid rules about speed limits in the pits...the drivers are so well protected, if they hit someone, the driver is not likely to get hurt....

Keep the faith in what you write billy boy, one day, the sheer coincidental fluke may occur when what you spout is close to reality.

And, leave my brother - wilkie, D out of this.

Leave him to the swimming.

[UltimateDanGTR]

first you got to take a shot at vettel, when it was hamilton was again, getting out late and into vettel....more evidence of trying to defend hamilton no matter what...

And it is safe to race wheel to wheel with a another driver provided both give way...not like the vettel webber incident, where no matter how loud everyone screeches, the whole accident could have easily been avoided had webber given up a few inches....but that was ON A RACE TRACK

race tracks are for racing side by side; pits are for pitting

and when a third car is released and goes side by side with the other two, that will also be okay, as long as the drivers are sensible....and the mechanics and everyone else get out of the way....but, hey those guys are no names anyway....

PS: do not bother with Wikie, those dead are not even mentioned

firstly you must see this as a chance to bash hamilton, instead of looking at the facts. In both cases, the pit stop releases were so close that no one could react quick enough as to let the other car through instantly. with the small rear mirrors as well, what do you expect? Or are you suggesting you have the reactions greater than that of any racing driver, so you could have stopped instantly and let vettel and then alonso past respectively?

I asked the question earlier 'what else could Lewis have done?' so far no answer, I think that says it all.

[Mia 01]

Alonso was on the pit first.

Why did Lewis have to drive side by side with Alonso if he knewed that he had to yield at the end of the pitlane. Just for the sake of it, huh.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Alonso was on the pit first.

Why did Lewis have to drive side by side with Alonso if he knewed that he had to yield at the end of the pitlane. Just for the sake of it, huh.

because by the time he pulled out, he was side by side with alonso. If he had slowed down and tried to tuck in behind alonso within the short length of pit lane remaining he would have to have gone ridiculously slow, and going so slow could of caused numerous problems.

as it was, they crossed the end of pit lane line with alonso just in front, so as already expressed by others he wasnt racing alonso down the pit straight (impossible due to the speed limit) he was doing the best and safest job he could do in the situation without completely destroying his race.

these are proffesional racing drivers at the end of the day. lewis and alonso showed that they can handle tough situations like that easily without it resulting in disaster.

[Tazio]

because by the time he pulled out, he was side by side with alonso. If he had slowed down and tried to tuck in behind alonso within the short length of pit lane remaining he would have to have gone ridiculously slow, and going so slow could of caused numerous problems.

as it was, they crossed the end of pit lane line with alonso just in front, so as already expressed by others he wasnt racing alonso down the pit straight (impossible due to the speed limit) he was doing the best and safest job he could do in the situation without completely destroying his race.

these are proffesional racing drivers at the end of the day. lewis and alonso showed that they can handle tough situations like that easily without it resulting in disaster.Also he he would want the best posible chance to beat Fred to the first turn, if for no other reason Fred could miss,
or mistime a shift, and "The Boss" could take advantage and beat him to the corner!

[markabilly]

firstly you must see this as a chance to bash hamilton, instead of looking at the facts. In both cases, the pit stop releases were so close that no one could react quick enough as to let the other car through instantly. with the small rear mirrors as well, what do you expect? Or are you suggesting you have the reactions greater than that of any racing driver, so you could have stopped instantly and let vettel and then alonso past respectively?

I asked the question earlier 'what else could Lewis have done?' so far no answer, I think that says it all.
what you don't get--along with a number of others like wikie---- is that i was not talking about a particular driver committing a particular act, but the lack of safety in the rules of permitting this type of stuff to go on in THE PITS, and NOT on the track (or lack of enforcement if such rules exist--which they appearently do not)


It is ********* to hear how, "well it is okay because these two drivers drove sensibly......did not do anything wrong on this particular occaision...no harm, no foul.....they were of the highest professionals..." The only thing I disagree is that it is okay, when it should NOT be okay

well if they all drove like that, all the time, we would not need safety barriers on the track or any of this other stuff. :rolleyes:

Bottom line, you can blame vetttel for not driving sensibly and getting in the way of Webber....or you can blame Webber for not being sensible and moving over, or you can say, racing accident......

That is fine if we are talking something like that on the track, but sooner or later, it will happen in the pits with a couple of drivers who had a little brain fade, a little contact that goes BANG, and when the cars go spinning every which way, the people in the pits will be paying the price.

The pits are dangerous enough, the room for error very small, and no point in enhancing the danger by failing to have clear rules preventing this from happenning and enforcing those rules with clear penalties regardless of whether there is any "damage" or contact in a particular incident.

a 20 second penalty on each of two drivers who have wrecked themselves out in the pits, will not mean much to the dead and crippled in the pits or along the pit wall :dozey:

[markabilly]

need to require the car enterring the pitlane to yield right of way to car already in pitlane who is in front or coming along side. To yield, the car must immediately permit the other car to go in front and move behind him

This stuff is just asking for an accident into a slew of pitworkers, with tragic results

Penalty should be automatic stop and go.

MS passes FA on a race track, within the rules PENALTY, when there was no safetfy concern or even broken rule.


and hamilton once again tries to race with someone down pitlane.....stupid is as stupid does; in this case(s), the only thing dumber is the FIA


This above answers your question below as to what the rules should require

PEOPLE driving cars on the street and not professionals paid millions to drive f1 cars, yield and merge into a traffic lane all the time on the freeways...duh....... :rolleyes:

but of course there was no rule requiring him to do it, so why should he?????????




I asked the question earlier 'what else could Lewis have done?' so far no answer, I think that says it all.

[Tazio]

what you don't get--along with a number of others like wikie---- is that i was not talking about a particular driver committing a particular act, but the lack of safety in the rules of permitting this type of stuff to go on in THE PITS, and NOT on the track (or lack of enforcement if such rules exist--which they appearently do not)


It is ********* to hear how, "well it is okay because these two drivers drove sensibly......did not do anything wrong on this particular occaision...no harm, no foul.....they were of the highest professionals..." The only thing I disagree is that it is okay, when it should NOT be okay

well if they all drove like that, all the time, we would not need safety barriers on the track or any of this other stuff.

Bottom line, you can blame vetttel for not driving sensibly and getting in the way of Webber....or you can blame Webber for not being sensible and moving over, or you can say, racing accident......

That is fine if we are talking something like that on the track, but sooner or later, it will happen in the pits with a couple of drivers who had a little brain fade, a little contact that goes BANG, and when the cars go spinning every which way, the people in the pits will be paying the price.

The pits are dangerous enough, the room for error very small, and no point in enhancing the danger by failing to have clear rules preventing this from happenning and enforcing those rules with clear penalties regardless of whether there is any "damage" or contact in a particular incident.

a 20 second penalty on each of two drivers who have wrecked themselves out in the pits, will not mean much to the dead and crippled in the pits or along the pit wall :dozey:

I'll go along with that! :up:
What happened? :confused: Did you have a sanity relapse? :beer: :s mokin:

[Mia 01]

what you don't get--along with a number of others like wikie---- is that i was not talking about a particular driver committing a particular act, but the lack of safety in the rules of permitting this type of stuff to go on in THE PITS, and NOT on the track (or lack of enforcement if such rules exist--which they appearently do not)


It is ********* to hear how, "well it is okay because these two drivers drove sensibly......did not do anything wrong on this particular occaision...no harm, no foul.....they were of the highest professionals..." The only thing I disagree is that it is okay, when it should NOT be okay

well if they all drove like that, all the time, we would not need safety barriers on the track or any of this other stuff. :rolleyes:

Bottom line, you can blame vetttel for not driving sensibly and getting in the way of Webber....or you can blame Webber for not being sensible and moving over, or you can say, racing accident......

That is fine if we are talking something like that on the track, but sooner or later, it will happen in the pits with a couple of drivers who had a little brain fade, a little contact that goes BANG, and when the cars go spinning every which way, the people in the pits will be paying the price.

The pits are dangerous enough, the room for error very small, and no point in enhancing the danger by failing to have clear rules preventing this from happenning and enforcing those rules with clear penalties regardless of whether there is any "damage" or contact in a particular incident.

a 20 second penalty on each of two drivers who have wrecked themselves out in the pits, will not mean much to the dead and crippled in the pits or along the pit wall :dozey:

Thanks, a very good post again.

[UltimateDanGTR]

what you don't get--along with a number of others like wikie---- is that i was not talking about a particular driver committing a particular act, but the lack of safety in the rules of permitting this type of stuff to go on in THE PITS, and NOT on the track (or lack of enforcement if such rules exist--which they appearently do not)


It is ********* to hear how, "well it is okay because these two drivers drove sensibly......did not do anything wrong on this particular occaision...no harm, no foul.....they were of the highest professionals..." The only thing I disagree is that it is okay, when it should NOT be okay

well if they all drove like that, all the time, we would not need safety barriers on the track or any of this other stuff. :rolleyes:

Bottom line, you can blame vetttel for not driving sensibly and getting in the way of Webber....or you can blame Webber for not being sensible and moving over, or you can say, racing accident......

That is fine if we are talking something like that on the track, but sooner or later, it will happen in the pits with a couple of drivers who had a little brain fade, a little contact that goes BANG, and when the cars go spinning every which way, the people in the pits will be paying the price.

The pits are dangerous enough, the room for error very small, and no point in enhancing the danger by failing to have clear rules preventing this from happenning and enforcing those rules with clear penalties regardless of whether there is any "damage" or contact in a particular incident.

a 20 second penalty on each of two drivers who have wrecked themselves out in the pits, will not mean much to the dead and crippled in the pits or along the pit wall :dozey:

OK, If we are talking about the rules, then evidently some clarification is needed. thats half the reason why the situation alonso and hamilton were in was a tough one.

at least we are settled on that.

[Retro Formula 1]

Mark

Yet again you refer to all these fatalities and crippled pit side personnel in F1 since Senna died to justify your argument yet keep refering back to Mark and that terrible crash in 1975.

We all know that F1 was exponentially more dangerous in the 60's, 70's and even 80's than it is now. However, you set the bar at 1994 (which seem sensible) for dealing with the "modern" era. This is the era of propper barriers, run-off areas, survival zones, HANS, tethers and many other safety devices introduced to F1 (which it has to be acknowledged were introduced during the Max era)

Can we be sensible about this and although there have been 2 tragic deaths of Marshalls since 1994 in 2000 and 2001, at least agree that F1 is safer than it has ever been for drivers, spectators and trackside personnel.

Now, if we can take that as a given, we can look at the matter in hand. Was it dangerous for Alonso and Hamilton to go side by side down the pit?

Without some automated system that prevents a car from leaving if a car behind has been released, you cannot stop two guys ending up side by side. All you need is both cars released practically simultaneously and a fraction of wheelspin and you get side by side action.

What is the best thing to do in this situation. there seems to be two alternatives.

The first is for the driver on the Pit side to slow down and turn behind the other car meaning he dows two distinct extra procedures in the pit. Slow down and turn. I would ask what he should do if there are 2, 3 or more cars in a line behind the first car. Does he stop in the blue pit lane till they pass? Who's pit does he block? What if he overheats while waiting and causes a brake or engine fire? Who attends to this car? Do they close the pit? Does he get penalised for ruining the race of drivers who cannot pit because of the obstruction?

You may think I'm being extreme but it's perfectly possible if they all dive in during a SC period isn't it?

The second option is for the drivers to behave professionally and the blue lane driver to proceed adjacent to the pit lane car and cede the position at the end of the pit lane. If there is a long line of cars, the lead car will accelerate first making more than enough space for the "blue lane" car to slot into his rightful position.

Can people not see that slowing down and changing direction in the pit is adding additional risk?

I ask seriously. Which would be the correct and safest option?

[SGWilko]

well if they all drove like that, all the time, we would not need safety barriers on the track or any of this other stuff. :rolleyes:

Errr, barriers etc are there for events such as car failure etc and to protect the paying public.

EDIT - we have had a pit lane accident at Canada - Lewis drove into Kimi - was not a lot of damage because - ding ding and thrice ding - they are limited to a slow speed to minimise the risk.

[Tazio]

Errr, barriers etc are there for events such as car failure etc and to protect the paying public.

EDIT - we have had a pit lane accident at Canada - Lewis drove into Kimi - was not a lot of damage because - ding ding and thrice ding - they are limited to a slow speed to minimise the risk.And it happened at the end of the pit lane beyond the paddock, and well away from pit lane personnel.
To say nothing of the fact that "The Boss" was not on the limit (of the pit lane speed limit) when that happened,
and Kimi was stationary!

[SGWilko]

And it happened at the end of the pit lane beyond the paddock, and well away from pit lane personnel.
To say nothing of the fact that "The Boss" was not on the limit (of the pit lane speed limit) when that happened,
and Kimi was stationary!

If Kimi was moving, the speed differential between the two would have been......



Drumroll please............................................ .....




...................a LOT less.

Badum, tish.

[UltimateDanGTR]

to be fair in that incident 2 years ago, if lewis had of actually been awake, the incident would have never occured.

[SGWilko]

to be fair in that incident 2 years ago, if lewis had of actually been awake, the incident would have never occured.

True - but that is inexperience for you, limiter button pressed, listening to the radio, setting up brake bias for turn 2, fuel mix and all the other info to take in while trying to ensure you lose as few places as possible due to safety car.................

[UltimateDanGTR]

True - but that is inexperience for you, limiter button pressed, listening to the radio, setting up brake bias for turn 2, fuel mix and all the other info to take in while trying to ensure you lose as few places as possible due to safety car.................

when you put it like that, it seems lewis had a right to crash into kimi :D

earwell, lewis can live and learn I suppose. as we all can.

[SGWilko]

when you put it like that, it seems lewis had a right to crash into kimi :D

earwell, lewis can live and learn I suppose. as we all can.

:laugh: Not a right, but one can see how easy the mistake can be made.

Have you ever been stuck behind a car while waiting to pull out at a roundabout? If you watch the traffic on the roundabout, you can easily forget that some hesitant old fart is still in front of you and has not gone for the gap you know he could easily have pulled out into.........

EDIT: especially if the trouble and strife is nagging about the fact you didn't properly clean the bathroom and toilet that morning, AND you left the toilet seat up......



....AGAIN!

[UltimateDanGTR]

:laugh: Not a right, but one can see how easy the mistake can be made.

Have you ever been stuck behind a car while waiting to pull out at a roundabout? If you watch the traffic on the roundabout, you can easily forget that some hesitant old fart is still in front of you and has not gone for the gap you know he could easily have pulled out into.........

EDIT: especially if the trouble and strife is nagging about the fact you didn't properly clean the bathroom and toilet that morning, AND you left the toilet seat up......



....AGAIN!

luckily no. I can see who has though.

nice to know you class kimi as the old fart in that analogy aswell. :p :p

[Mia 01]

Somehow its always Lewis involved in thoose pitlane incidents. Next time he is probably getting a heavy fine. He builds up to it.

[ArrowsFA1]

we have had a pit lane accident at Canada - Lewis drove into Kimi...
Isn't it funny how the focus is always on Hamilton. I seem to recall a Williams driving into the back of the McLaren in the same incident, and yet not a whisper of criticism for Rosberg :dozey:

[markabilly]

Errr, barriers etc are there for events such as car failure etc and to protect the paying public.

EDIT - we have had a pit lane accident at Canada - Lewis drove into Kimi - was not a lot of damage because - ding ding and thrice ding - they are limited to a slow speed to minimise the risk.

actually it was a chain reaction type collision

And it happened at the end of the pit lane beyond the paddock, and well away from pit lane personnel.
To say nothing of the fact that "The Boss" was not on the limit (of the pit lane speed limit) when that happened,
and Kimi was stationary!
True, he appeared to try to stop as did Kimi....

Isn't it funny how the focus is always on Hamilton. I seem to recall a Williams driving into the back of the McLaren in the same incident, and yet not a whisper of criticism for Rosberg :dozey:

Does not matter who did what.....it is good this happened where there were no pit crews on their knees in a position to be run over

I think recently the pit speed limit was lowered for the whole weekend, not just practices, from 60 mph to 40 mph....but I have over the years personally two accidents where a pedestrian was hit by a car going 35 to 45 mph in a cross walk by someone running a red light.

Both were fatal back and chest injuries and in one accident where the car was probably going 45, the pedestrian's shoes were left in the roadway and his body was torn almost completely in half. The car looked like he had hit a telephone pole

[SGWilko]

actually it was a chain reaction type collision

True, he appeared to try to stop as did Kimi....


Does not matter who did what.....it is good this happened where there were no pit crews on their knees in a position to be run over

I think recently the pit speed limit was lowered for the whole weekend, not just practices, from 60 mph to 40 mph....but I have over the years personally two accidents where a pedestrian was hit by a car going 35 to 45 mph in a cross walk by someone running a red light.

Both were fatal back and chest injuries and in one accident where the car was probably going 45, the pedestrian's shoes were left in the roadway and his body was torn almost completely in half. The car looked like he had hit a telephone pole

You know, you don't buy a ticket to live 'real life' upon which the words 'motor racing is dangerous' are written.......

[markabilly]

You know, you don't buy a ticket to live 'real life' upon which the words 'motor racing is dangerous' are written.......
yeah but I just as soon not see a crew man or two get speared when [insert name] (okay let me make it easy--VETTEL and Schuie) does a bump and grind in the pits and the sharp edge of the nose of one of those cars slices into him at 40 mph....It would easily destroy his chest, or cut off his head or other such horrible things......
or just simply hits him while he is upright....

"real life" was bad enough (But now it would be on TV world wide, and for those into such things, might even draw some new viewers, but i can do without it, thank you very mmuch)

i am highly in favor of doing anything reasonable to lessen that chance from happenning,

[Tazio]

If Kimi was moving, the speed differential between the two would have been......



Drumroll please............................................ .....




...................a LOT less.

Badum, tish.

If Kimi was rolling their would be a chance that he would not hit him front to tail, and an unpredictable a carom effect, is what I was getting @ wise guy :dozey: ;)

[SGWilko]

yeah but I just as soon not see a crew man or two get speared when [insert name] (okay let me make it easy--VETTEL and Schuie) does a bump and grind in the pits and the sharp edge of the nose of one of those cars slices into him at 40 mph....It would easily destroy his chest, or cut off his head or other such horrible things......
or just simply hits him while he is upright....

"real life" was bad enough (But now it would be on TV world wide, and for those into such things, might even draw some new viewers, but i can do without it, thank you very mmuch)

i am highly in favor of doing anything reasonable to lessen that chance from happenning,

Of course, the only reason another crew MIGHT be in the pit lane, is to service someone coming into the pits. This being the case, and the guy is, as we speak, trundling down the pit lane, the 55m rule dictates no exit from the box, right?

[SGWilko]

If Kimi was rolling their would be a chance that he would not hit him front to tail, and an unpredictable a carom effect, is what I was getting @ wise guy :dozey: ;)

Well, if Lewis was behind, any idea where else contact is likely to be made? Scarborough?????

[Tazio]

yes that would called a side impact! :rolleyes:

[edv]

The thing I do not like is seeing 16 men over the wall during a stop.
Why not allow only 2 men to change 4 tires, say. Let the pit stop be 30 seconds instead of 4. No one over the wall until the car stops. Car cannot move until the 2 men are back behind the wall with the spent tires. No lollipop, just hand signals or radio.

[fandango]

The thing I do not like is seeing 16 men over the wall during a stop.
Why not allow only 2 men to change 4 tires, say. Let the pit stop be 30 seconds instead of 4. No one over the wall until the car stops. Car cannot move until the 2 men are back behind the wall with the spent tires. No lollipop, just hand signals or radio.

That's an interesting idea, but it changes the posssibilities for different strategies, as more than the one mandatory stop would never happen as part of a planned strategy. Not quite sure where this "wall" is either....

[Mia 01]

The Stewards will have enough very soon, race bans perhaps.