My thoughts about different classes

[OldF]

I don’t know if this is a necessary thread but I decided to start it anyway. All this is for WRC, regional championships and national championships.

N4:
Giving more freedom just for the purpose of getting them (N4) closer to the performance of S2000 cars only will increase the price and there will be fever drivers in the N4 group. N4 as it is now, is the cheapest (full spec car about 140 000 €) way for a driver to drive a 4-wheel car. It’s not a competition car but anyway.

If there’s a need for getting the N4 cars (Mitsubishi & Subaru to keep them happy) closer to the S2000 cars, there should be a new class called N4+ or whatever. In this class for example the suspension and the brakes parts would be similar to the parts of a S2000 and if necessary also the engine parts as pistons and connecting rods etc. A S2000 has about 280 hp (and some maybe even more) and the min. weight is 1200 kg, they have a weight to power ratio of 4,29 kg / hp. If a N4 with the 33 mm restrictor have about 310 hp the weight to power ratio (counting with a weight of 1350 kg) is about the same 4,35 kg / hp. But even with these upgrades the price of a N4 wouldn’t be even close to a piece of a S2000 (Janne Tuohino paid for his Ford Fiesta S2000 280 000€).

S2000:
The homologation of S2000 cars beyond 2011 should be allowed. These cars have a nice sound and are spectacular to watch, at least on gravel (as seen by the links Mirek posted in the “Rally d´Italia Sardegna” thread). These also would be a “middle” class between N4 and the new WRC1.6T, both in performance (hopefully) and price aspect.

R1, R2, R3; R3T and R3D:
These are IMO all good classes, especially R2. There already three makes: Citroen, Ford and Renault. R2, and these cars are real competition car at a quite reasonable price (40 000 – 50 000 €) and is good start for a junior to start his/her rally career.

The R3 is class is maybe little to expensive, Renault Clio about 60 000-70 000 € (http://www.renault-sport.com/en/rallye/clio_r3/clio_r3_maxi.php) and a Honda Civic 95 000€ (http://www.jasmotorsport.com/Pdf/188.pdf ).

R1 is the class being close to a road car and IMO is the cheapest way to start a rally career with (as Mikko Pajunen is doing in the British rally championship (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mtv3.fi%2Furheilu%2Fralli%2Fuut iset.shtml%2Farkistot%2Fralli%2F2010%2F05%2F113468 3&sl=fi&tl=en).

There are not many cars in the R3T and R3D classes but maybe in the R3T class there will be more cars when the WRC 1.6T starts.

And then finally WRC 1.6T:
Most of the drivers are happy that it’s going to be a turbo engine. A turbo engine has of course more torque compared to a NA engine. The torque of the 1.6T would with a boost of 2,5 bar would be about 550 Nm (it’s just my guessing) and with a 33 mm restrictor and 2,5 bar boost, the power could be little higher compared to a N4 with a 33 mm restrictor. IMO it should be sound and power wise better with a 35 mm restrictor and 2 bar boost that would give the engine about 480 Nm torque (again just my guessing), which is a lot more compared to a S2000 that have about 250 Nm, and the power peak would be at quite high revs. With lower boost and bigger restrictor I think we could have quite good sounding engines.

If the direct injection will increase the price by 40% of a S2000 car (which I don’t understand why), the price of a WRC 1.6T cars would be nearly 400 000 €.

If it’s true what I’m have read on this forum that the gearbox will be hydraulic, will of course increase the price of 1.6T of cars but lets hope it doesn’t have an active centre diff which will increase the price of the gearboxes to the same as in WRC today (about 100 000 €). This price also depends if these gearboxes are design / made for each team or has the same format as in S2000, three manufacturers to choose from. With these assumptions (compared to the price of a gearbox of a S20000 (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-112634-p-3.html) the price of a WRC 1.6T car would be 280 0000 * 1,4 –25 000 + 100 000 = 467 000 €.

These where my thoughts about the different classes, what’s yours?

[Francis44]

Those are some valid points, still I think for a young driver to show himself in the R classes just dont work.

In many national championships you just dont see drivers investing on R classes, and I have a really hard time understanding why, although I suspect this happens because media just wont care about those cars and therefore sponsors have a really hard time funding those small cars seeing they wont see their brand featured on a newspaper picture. This is really frustrating, and I suspect some of us have the tallent to be good drivers but we just aint going to have the oppurtunity to even seat our as*** in a rally car.

Regarding top classes I think those teams moan about the prices too much, but for what they get in return (publicity wise) it's totally worth. If you want to win World Championships you surely will have to spend money, and in all honesty I think a 500.000 euros car for a top official team is duable, we dont feel the impact but as soon as the economy picks up they will totally look back at the profit they can make on selling cars if they performe well on Motorsport.

Then you have the problem with cars used for official uses, no matter how cheap they should be, official teams will find a way to inflate cars prices, look at the S2000, they should have been way cheaper but now you see them selling those for 300.000 + euros.

[bluuford]

I think you should not worry too much about exposure 2WD cars get. Its quite proportional to the amount of money they invest compared to top 4WD cars.

Well,, when Tuohino bought his car for 280 000EUR then it is not that bad. It is a new and top car.

The thing I cannot understand is why those S1600 cars are not banned from JWRC? Suzuki Sfift S1600 costs something like 100 000EUR and I found one Clio that costs 120 000EUR and theirs maintenance is quite expensive. And they are competing with the cars that cost 40 000EUR up to 60 000 EUR. If all the cars in JWRC are with R2 and R3 cars, then it would be more equal and more affordable and you can get some exposure as well.

[Tomi]

I don’t know if this is a necessary thread but I decided to start it anyway. All this is for WRC, regional championships and national championships.

N4:
Giving more freedom just for the purpose of getting them (N4) closer to the performance of S2000 cars only will increase the price and there will be fever drivers in the N4 group. N4 as it is now, is the cheapest (full spec car about 140 000 €) way for a driver to drive a 4-wheel car. It’s not a competition car but anyway.

If there’s a need for getting the N4 cars (Mitsubishi & Subaru to keep them happy) closer to the S2000 cars, there should be a new class called N4+ or whatever. In this class for example the suspension and the brakes parts would be similar to the parts of a S2000 and if necessary also the engine parts as pistons and connecting rods etc. A S2000 has about 280 hp (and some maybe even more) and the min. weight is 1200 kg, they have a weight to power ratio of 4,29 kg / hp. If a N4 with the 33 mm restrictor have about 310 hp the weight to power ratio (counting with a weight of 1350 kg) is about the same 4,35 kg / hp. But even with these upgrades the price of a N4 wouldn’t be even close to a piece of a S2000 (Janne Tuohino paid for his Ford Fiesta S2000 280 000€).

In my opinion its not about to make subaru or mitsu happy, its more about to make an car that is relatively cheap to use €/km, not what it cost when buy, I think by better adjustments for the brakes and bigger disks + 50kg weight off already changes the way how to drive those, closer to the coming 1.6T, the point is to get much km as possible to reasonable price for young drivers not to make someone happy.

[Macd]

Am I the only one wondering why people are referring to 140,000 € cars as cheap? :S:S

[urabus-denoS2000]

I though that was the point , because realistically GrN could be at 60-80.000 (which still isnt cheap :D )

[skarderud]

i cant understand why the n4 class just could be a "sheap" class? just cut the costs, as a standard car with rollcage, safetystuff, better suspension and a ecu uppgrade? then you can have a nice car for around 60k euros!
good for young talents!

[serial jeff]

i cant understand why the n4 class just could be a "sheap" class? just cut the costs, as a standard car with rollcage, safetystuff, better suspension and a ecu uppgrade? then you can have a nice car for around 60k euros!
good for young talents!

Absolutely. Tune the ECU, tear out the interior, and add a cage. Maybe not even a better suspension... back in the early 2000s, the standard suspension of the evo and wrx sti would be adequate to rally in, IMO. Though from what I've read, the STi has gone soft in the last couple years, but I don't know anything firsthand about that.

[OldF]

Am I the only one wondering why people are referring to 140,000 € cars as cheap? :S:S

You’re right, 140.000 € is lot of money.



I cant understand why the n4 class just could be a "sheap" class? just cut the costs, as a standard car with rollcage, safetystuff, better suspension and a ecu uppgrade? then you can have a nice car for around 60k euros!
good for young talents!

The basic model Subaru (http://www.tommimakinenracing.fi/tmr-offers2010.jpg) from Tommi Mäkinen Racing costs 88.000 € and it’s close to a car you’re talking about. I don’t know if this basic model includes an ecu upgrade. The full spec costs 138.000 € so the price range is quite big. Then you buy by the thickness of your wallet. Maybe the prices for a same spec car also vary in different countries. What surprised me is that it has “only” 290 hp. I thought the power would above 300 hp with a 33 mm restrictor.



The thing I cannot understand is why those S1600 cars are not banned from JWRC? Suzuki Sfift S1600 costs something like 100 000EUR and I found one Clio that costs 120 000EUR and theirs maintenance is quite expensive. And they are competing with the cars that cost 40 000EUR up to 60 000 EUR. If all the cars in JWRC are with R2 and R3 cars, then it would be more equal and more affordable and you can get some exposure as well.

I totally agree with you. The S1600 cars are too expensive for JWRC. BTW, I remember reading of prices about 180.000 € but that was few years ago.



In my opinion its not about to make subaru or mitsu happy, its more about to make an car that is relatively cheap to use €/km, not what it cost when buy, I think by better adjustments for the brakes and bigger disks + 50kg weight off already changes the way how to drive those, closer to the coming 1.6T, the point is to get much km as possible to reasonable price for young drivers not to make someone happy.

Maybe I choosed the wrong word. What I meant if Mitsubishi and Subaru don’t are interested in group N, we don’t have these “cheap” 4-wheel drive cars.

[Rally Power]

Somehow this topic it’s linked with the one dedicated to national series future, but answering to Oldf suggestion it’s useful to think over the rally classes, especially those directed to top national competitors.

In FIA Groupe R regulations, proposed to replace the old appendix J classes, there’s obviously a vacant space for 4wd cars, the R4 class, that simply wasn´t filled because European manufacturers doesn’t show interest to cope Gr. R obligation to produce 2.500 road cars in order to homologate a rally car!

Knowing that only Mitsubishi and Subaru would produce 2.500 4wd special cars, FIA introduced the S2000 class, allowing a larger number of manufacturers to easily homologate 4wd rally cars for national and regional use, alongside WRC cars reserved to world championship.

The S2000 concept proved right, even with rising costs rapidly exploding the proposed limit of € 170.000,00 per car, and a reasonable number of exciting cars were homologated, but even so FIA decided to stop it with the introduction of 1.6tWRC.

This precipitated decision to ban S2000 could be related to the WRC/IRC rivalry, but it will certainly affect a large number of national series, because in a near future top teams and drivers will be forced to use ultra expensive 1.6tWRC cars, or, in alternative, be limited to a one make Gr. N (as with Ralliart disappearance, most likely only Subaru will keep producing competitive N4 cars).

So, even applauding 1.6tWRC introduction at the world championship, we should be apprehensive with these limited options for national competitors and start to put some pressure over FIA in order to find a fast solution.

Maybe an answer could be resurrecting the “WRC light” concept, in order to create a 1.6tWRC B class, with slight modified engines, mechanical transmission and standard suspensions, on a € 200.000,00 rigid limit.

[dimviii]

Absolutely. Tune the ECU, tear out the interior, and add a cage. Maybe not even a better suspension... back in the early 2000s, the standard suspension of the evo and wrx sti would be adequate to rally in, IMO. Though from what I've read, the STi has gone soft in the last couple years, but I don't know anything firsthand about that.

You are not going to see even one(1) evo/sti at finish with normal gear/boxes and suspension.At gravel not even at the flying of 1st ss. :D

[urabus-denoS2000]

You are not going to see even one(1) evo/sti at finish with normal gear/boxes and suspension.At gravel not even at the flying of 1st ss. :D

Exactly . I was connected with a GrN Mazda 323 here back in the early 90's , and it had huge gearbox issues (standard gearbox back then)

[Rally Power]

A language doubt: can we establish a difference between standart and original?

To me, standart suspension or transmission are always special components, but equily provided to manufacturers by a single supllier, like S2000 gearboxes, very different to original parts.

[dimviii]

Exactly . I was connected with a GrN Mazda 323 here back in the early 90's , and it had huge gearbox issues (standard gearbox back then)
even at 2010 oem gear boxes can t cope reliably with +600nm.

[urabus-denoS2000]

Rally Power : Gearbox as in an normal road version Mazda 323 GTR ;)

[Mirek]

even at 2010 oem gear boxes can t cope reliably with +600nm.

If we don't go the way of restrictor+hight pressure turbo+ALS+special racing fuel but no restrictor (or big one)+standard turbo+no ALS+stock fuel we won't have big problems using stock parts.

In my opinion Gr.N should be like that and if Mitsubishi or Subaru or whoever wants stronger production based 4x4 why not but in different class (same with S2000 at best).

[vkangas]

By the way, Juha Kankkunen said in Finnish magazine Vauhdin Maailma that he is trying to convince people that WRC 1.6T should have around 350 HP and 50 kg less weight than nowadays. Let's hope Juha gets his will trough. ;)

[Viking]

even at 2010 oem gear boxes can t cope reliably with +600nm.

Subaru Cup in Norway are running standard/original gearbox and diffs. http://www.voldsund-motorsport.no/alias.html?id=1018631

...and the cup winner in 2009, Andreas Mikkelsen, also won the gr.N championship!

[Mirek]

Cup cars are far from having 600 Nm, that was what Dimviii meant. But anyway in my opinion N4 should be more like those cup cars.

[Viking]

]Cup cars are far from having 600 Nm, that was what Dimviii meant. But anyway in my opinion N4 should be more like those cup cars.

580 Nm they say, not that far away :) And I think with this years E85 fuel and 33mm restrictor they have more...

[Mirek]

I don't think it's real number for Subaru Cup engine. In my opinion it has much less.

[serial jeff]

You are not going to see even one(1) evo/sti at finish with normal gear/boxes and suspension.At gravel not even at the flying of 1st ss. :D

Perhaps not with the extra engine upgrades and driving as fast as they can over rough terrain. There's a fairly obvious solution: drive slower. Not even world rally cars can go flat out over any rally surface without breaking. Just drive at a safe speed for the car; less power and more caution.

As its name implies, the P-WRC should be for production cars, not essentially another (albeit slightly more down to earth) racecar specification. We've already got S2000 for that.

[dimviii]

Subaru Cup in Norway are running standard/original gearbox and diffs. http://www.voldsund-motorsport.no/alias.html?id=1018631

...and the cup winner in 2009, Andreas Mikkelsen, also won the gr.N championship!

Ιf you want to see the true potential between cup cars and n4 subi/evo don t see at Mikkelsen.Mikkelsen is just a lot of steps above competition in Norway.You have to see Argentinian championship.There are day and night between them.
Cup cars are way much slower than full n4 cars.Just a dogbox is nearly 1sec/km than a normal box.Not to mention diifs(normal 9rs oem diifs are just NOT for rallying for reliability and spped)

Also dont compare Norwegian snow/gravel with other gravels.Norwegian gravel is like asphalt comparing with Greece Middle east Turkey,Portugal,south america etc.

[dimviii]

Perhaps not with the extra engine upgrades and driving as fast as they can over rough terrain. There's a fairly obvious solution: drive slower. Not even world rally cars can go flat out over any rally surface without breaking. Just drive at a safe speed for the car; less power and more caution.

As its name implies, the P-WRC should be for production cars, not essentially another (albeit slightly more down to earth) racecar specification. We've already got S2000 for that.

Rallying and drive slow doesn t go together.Maybe in 70s or early 80s for privateers.
Wrc cars of course can finish 3 days flat out driving even at Acropolis for many years.

Problem in today rallying is NOT the cost of an even brand new N4.
A new evo X or almost new evo9 you can buy it for less 100k these days.
Dont mention n15s cause prodrive want to make profits with a car that is not faster or more reliable than an evo and wants 140k from your pocket.
Very good examples light used are at 60k- 80k.
So s2000 with a cost @ 250k is noway near a full n4 car which is 1/3 of cost.
S2000 can t be serviced from a local garage as almost all n4s.
Spares of N4 cars you can find everywhere in every country at 1/5 of cost of s2000.

N4 is not the problem guys.Thousands of them for 20+years in every country,and hundrets of championships all over the world prove it.

[dimviii]

]If we don't go the way of restrictor+hight pressure turbo+ALS+special racing fuel but no restrictor (or big one)+standard turbo+no ALS+stock fuel we won't have big problems using stock parts.

In my opinion Gr.N should be like that and if Mitsubishi or Subaru or whoever wants stronger production based 4x4 why not but in different class (same with S2000 at best).

Mirek i don t know for how many years you watching rallies,but in early years N4 cars was very difficult to finish specially in gravel rallies.Going fast with normal N4 almost always finished with broken g-boxes/diffs.
Problem in rallies is not the cost of N4s.Problem is the cost of s2000 cars and i am not saying only the purchase cost.

[dimviii]

580 Nm they say, not that far away :) And I think with this years E85 fuel and 33mm restrictor they have more...

Best evo 9 in our team (3 items)has 580nm with 33mm and good fuel.
So dont expect a cup car to be so equal

[Mirek]

Mirek i don t know for how many years you watching rallies,but in early years N4 cars was very difficult to finish specially in gravel rallies.Going fast with normal N4 almost always finished with broken g-boxes/diffs.
Problem in rallies is not the cost of N4s.Problem is the cost of s2000 cars and i am not saying only the purchase cost.

I just wanted to point out a logical point of view - we wouldn't need 600 Nm in Gr.N for same performance. Using tiny restrictor with large possible upgrades and special fuel results in pure waste of money without giving some mind blowing performance.

[OldF]

Mirek i don t know for how many years you watching rallies,but in early years N4 cars was very difficult to finish specially in gravel rallies.Going fast with normal N4 almost always finished with broken g-boxes/diffs.
Problem in rallies is not the cost of N4s.Problem is the cost of s2000 cars and i am not saying only the purchase cost.

I think it was from the beginning of 2001 when the N-group regulations changed radically. Before that even the back seat had be in place.

But the car is only on part of the total costs. Remember reading in the Finnish magazine VM, where Juho Hänninen told that his budget for a PWRC season was 500.000 euros and that didn’t include the car.

[Mirek]

And his car was often broken anyway :)

[OldF]

Somehow this topic it’s linked with the one dedicated to national series future.

Correct. That thread and the “cars in 2011” was my “inspiration” for this thread.


In FIA Groupe R regulations, proposed to replace the old appendix J classes, there’s obviously a vacant space for 4wd cars, the R4 class, that simply wasn´t filled because European manufacturers doesn’t show interest to cope Gr. R obligation to produce 2.500 road cars in order to homologate a rally car!
.

And I think that was also a reason for introducing WRC. In group A, every time a manufacturer wanted to have some bigger upgrades, they had to build 2500 cars.

[dimviii]

that i want to say about the costs is that if you downgrade a N4 as it is nowadays(dogbox/topmounts/antirollbars/33mm/fuels)is going to be much more worse for drivers with ''small' budget.
Example is Pech,Asi,Kajetan,Salo,Ketooma,Aigner etc.
Is there anybody who beleive that even with 33mm a subi/evo is faster than a s2000?Don t think so.
All the above drivers why they choose subi/evos this year ?(and previous)

Cause of budget.
if these subi/evos were ''cup'' editions do you think that Pech,Asi or Kajetan could be faster than s2000?Don t think so.
So isn t it better with a 1/3 of cost of a s2000 to have drivers with lower budget to have the chance over s2000 crews?

Dont think that if Pech/Asi etc were behind slower drivers with s2000 cars will save the rallying.

[dimviii]

]And his car was often broken anyway :)

Mirek to be fair,we cant ask for better reliability from an almost production car, instead from another that have been designed from a blank paper for rallying and with 3ple cost.
i think that if we could count reliability between them,we are not going to have big differences.And you have to count the cost of course.

[maxter]

The point of N4 should not be to be able to compete with S2000 but rather be a cheaper class of it's own for those who want to step up to 4wd without insane budgets. IMO.

EDIT: On the other hand, reliability is of course an issue and if the original components can't cope with rallying and thus failing all the time and/or having to be replaced, thus increasing the cost of running a season to a level near that of the current N4, then it's of course pointless.

[Mirek]

Mirek to be fair,we cant ask for better reliability from an almost production car, instead from another that have been designed from a blank paper for rallying and with 3ple cost.
i think that if we could count reliability between them,we are not going to have big differences.And you have to count the cost of course.

You still compare with S2000. Ok, why not but in the same time we should look also back. We're still making much bigger and bigger the gap between previous step and N4.

I don't have any problem with production cars as they are now but I think that there should be 4WD class below them. Like it was proper gr.N years a go or those cup cars now.

Today's N4 are more like A8 so why not call them A or whatever and let them together with S2000 but aside of really cheap gr.N 4WD cars.

It's too easy to compare with overpriced option (S2000). We should compare at least with cost of Gr.N few years a go. They grow every year. And I can assure You that Pech doesn't run his Evo for 1/3 of Kresta's Pug. Pech has to change 2-3 diffs, gearbox or clutch every rally (sometimes all in one event), had already 4 times damaged head gasket etc. It's far from being cheap at all.

[dimviii]

]You still compare with S2000. Ok, why not but in the same time we should look also back. We're still making much bigger and bigger the gap between previous step and N4.

I don't have any problem with production cars as they are now but I think that there should be 4WD class below them. Like it was proper gr.N years a go or those cup cars now.

Today's N4 are more like A8 so why not call them A or whatever and let them together with S2000 but aside of really cheap gr.N 4WD cars.

It's too easy to compare with overpriced option (S2000). We should compare at least with cost of Gr.N few years a go. They grow every year. And I can assure You that Pech doesn't run his Evo for 1/3 of Kresta's Pug. Pech has to change 2-3 diffs, gearbox or clutch every rally (sometimes all in one event), had already 4 times damaged head gasket etc. It's far from being cheap at all.

Mirek try to understant that if you make them cheaper they are going to breakdown.All championships are not in asphalt.The rules changed cause of reliability issues.To spent 60000 euros instead of 80000 euros for a new car that is difficult to finish you are not going to gain something.Only retirements with a slower car.
Of course Pech is running with 1/3 of cost even if he changes 3 times more diffs from Kresta.
Example...
diff evo 9 ralliart rear 1200 euro
diff evo 9 ralliart front 1600 euro.
drenth dog-box evo 9 10000 euro
do you want to compare with peugeot 207 s2000 prices? even fabia ones?
Just write the prices for these spare parts.
There are other parts like shaftdrives that the cost is 5 times more.
Do you know how it cost in an evo all the back ''axle''?(ie accident)
10 times cheaper than the cheapest s2000.

how much is the cost for a NEW ONE s2000? isn t 3 times more than a new evo9-10?Aren t light used s2000 cost 250000 euros?

Pech has to change every rally diifs? why? they are serviceable with 100 euros.Something wrong you have informed.Not problem at all,just inspection every 2-4 rallys(dox and diffs)Engine for hole year without disassembly.After a year just new pistons/gaskets/metals/valves with less than 2000 euros.
Turbo every 500 ss km (depents how hard antilag you have)All these are in high level of driving with championship aims.With lower ambitions you can finish a hole year without opening a fresh dog box/diffs/engine.

About head gasket something wrong is running. when you don t know how much you have to tighten the head bolts,or you using ''wrong'' gasket,or extreme turbo pressure you are going to have gasket issues.There are other evos(all almost) without the problems you are reffering.


About recent gr N beeing like gr A i dont agree.
When you install in a production car brakes front/rear stiffer antirollbars,a dog box and balljoints topmounts you dont have an Gr A.
Gr A has only the headlights same as the production car.

So the bigger gap from previous years N4 is something you can t fix cause of reliability issues.
to downgrade them is plenty steps backwards,except that thousants of them are going to loose their value.
Do you think that all these drivers can buy s2000,or that they want to retire in almost every rally they have participate/pay?

[Mirek]

How would I decrease reliability by running no ALS, lower turbo pressure or standard fuel? I don't speak about differentials or gearbox but about waste of money into engine which is expensively upgraded and than restricted which is against any logic ;)

What I said about diffs and gearbox is that than they wouldn't need to be designed for 600+ Nm, nothing else.

About Pech I said how it goes with him. What's the reason for that really? Who knows, maybe they don't run proper gr.N car. You never know when there is a car built by same people who check it later...

[dimviii]

Even now you can run lower boost,in national championship you can run unleaded normal fuel are not against the rules.
Even with normal fuels and no antilag you are going to have reliability problems with gear box and diffs if they are not uprated.
The dogbox and diffs are not there due to antilag/or racing fuels.That i am trying to explain with my poor english mate.
Antirollbars/topmounts/33mm yes they are there for speed.But do you think that 3500 euros is a problem for somebody who spents 100-200-300k euros per year?
But somebody who can push a N4 like Pech/Asi etc why he don t have the chance to do it with a lower cost?
You think that if he could afford a s2000 he wouldn t buy it?
Or is it good for the sport to see Pech behind Petak cause of money talks?

[Mirek]

dimvii, please, You're still answering something I don't speak about. My point is completely different...

I speak about rules and particularly about engine rules which are wrong for gr.N IMHO... simply:

We are allowed to invest in big upgrades and special fuel X We have to use tiny restrictor

-> we are spending a lot of money but get very small gain in real performance


I don't speak about S2000. Please don't put it into my mouth.

[dimviii]

all categories running racing fuels.It is not only for N4 cars.
It s pointless to ask for normal fuels in N4 when R2 class is running expensive fuels.
which are the big upgrades in engine you have to invest for running racing fuels or antilag?Engine is COMPLETELY normal.
without restrictor you can t control the power,and this is something that fia doesn t like for many reasons(and it is right imho)
so small power is for a reason.And there is the point that in conversation we HAVE to count s2000.
When we talk about regulations it is not indepented from lower/higher groups.You have to count all of them in terms of competetive/costs.

[Mirek]

Normal engine doesn't have racing ECU, ALS or optional turbo.

In my opinion racing fuel is nonsense in rallying where every engine is anyway restricted, isn't it? There is no point in using 5x or more more expensive fuel for gain in performance which can be done by bigger restrictor which is a change which cost nothing. But that's question of entire system, not only one class, of course.

[bluuford]

I think that we can conclude all that tech stuff withe very simple sentence. We need to put S2000 cars in separate class like N4+ for example. Then there is no need to compare those two cars and no need to equalize their performance. We, in this forum know that S2000 cars and Imprezas and Evos are completely different cars but normal crowds do not care about it.

We could read that Tänak was 4th and 5th in GrN in Portugal and some sources also mentioned that he was first in traditional GrN category. Normal reader, spectator do not care that those cars are different cars. Average spectator can understand that WRC car is something different, then there is GrN and 2WD category and that is all. If we can divide those two cars in different categories then maybe there are more people who can understand that those cars are not equal.

A long as they are not in different classes, those who drive with traditional GrN cars will be shaded big time.

[dimviii]

you have to count that if fuels are normal,is a little bit difficult to ''watch'' it specially @ rallies.
racing fuel can add 25-30 ps all over the power band in an evo/sti.
Maybe is the reason that they dont want normal fuels.
If it was possible to ''watch'' it,yes is going to drop performance/costs which you could gain with the cheap bigger restrictor.
Finally we agree :p :

[Mirek]

It would be better to discuss at beer, hopefully we can meet on some rally. Cheers ;)

[dimviii]

]It would be better to discuss at beer, hopefully we can meet on some rally. Cheers ;)
With beers is going to take a little bit more,but not problem.Next year @Acropolis you have free beers and sleep. :D