You have GOT to be kidding me!!!

[Jag_Warrior]

I have seen some amateurs on safety crews before (usually at short and dirt tracks), but these clowns who let Simona roast are the WORST I have EVER seen!

[e2mtt]

what happened? I wasn't watching.

[garyshell]

I have seen some amateurs on safety crews before (usually at short and dirt tracks), but these clowns who let Simona roast are the WORST I have EVER seen!

I agree with one notable exception, the guy who stayed there with her flames lapping at him while he tried to get her out. He was a bit rough, but I think circumstances called for the "get her the hell out of there attitude" he showed.

The guys wth the hoses should be fired imediately.

Gary

[Jag_Warrior]

what happened? I wasn't watching.

Simona de Silvestro crashed against the wall and her car caught fire. As she slid down the track, the fire got worse. The safety crew pulled up, stared at her... stared at her some more... pulled a fire hose out... stared at her... tried to get the fire hose working (but didn't)... stared at her some more... decided that she was probably well done enough, so one of them finally started trying to get her out of the car... half-assed it... finally some guy with a fire extinguisher that he probably got on sale at Walmart starts tinkling on the flames a little bit.

Luckily she just burned her hand a bit (from pushing herself up & out of the car). It appeared that she did more to get herself out than any of those clowns did.

That was without a doubt one of the worst displays that I have ever seen from a safety crew. And I've seen bad crashes where the "safety crew" was made up of local guys from the volunteer fire dept and the volunteer rescue squad. Firings are in order. Without a doubt. Who is in charge of the safety crew these days, the series or the track? Who do these bozos work for???

[Jag_Warrior]

I agree with one notable exception, the guy who stayed there with her flames lapping at him while he tried to get her out. He was a bit rough, but I think circumstances called for the "get her the hell out of there attitude" he showed.

The guys wth the hoses should be fired imediately.

Gary

Yeah, other than him, all of the rest of them would be led out of the track before the race was done. And I'd only leave him alone because at least he was doing something (exactly what, I'm not really sure - but it was something). Put a call out for some volunteer firemen and EMT's and let them complete the race.

[e2mtt]

Man. I'll have to find a youtube video of that. Very glad she didn't get burnt bad.

[e2mtt]

Already on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIatXMiyZ6w

Terrible. I though Indycar got the "amazing CART safety team" as part of the merger? It looked like nobody made sure the fire hoses worked this weekend, or was trained on how to use them. Meanwhile the one guy that wasn't afraid of the fire was trying his darnedest to break her back.

[Jag_Warrior]

Yeah, she was probably half an inch taller after he got done with her. But since his mates seemed content to stand around and watch her die in the fire, I guess he decided that she might die from him yanking on her, but she wouldn't die from being burned up.

[elis]

Simona's composure in her interview not long after, is testement to this young Lady.. however I do think some of her 'coolness' in that may be due to adreneline, & once she goes to bed this evening, or has time to sit down & reflect & see the video she may well be a little less calm.. & rightly so. Mentally that could shake her up a bit, knowing the very time she needed help, it took an eternity to get its act together. They pretty much failed her. imo

[harvick#1]

only 1 guy was actually trying to get her out of there, so but if its a fire, pull me out as fast as you can, how you think they wanted to pull her out, nice and slow, let her roast some more, she might've had a strap get struck to her or something, but I'm pretty sure being in a fire, I'd like to get yanked out as fast as possible. the others should not have a job anymore though

[DanicaFan]

I agree, the safety crew is usually very good at doing the job but that was terrible. They knew the car was on fire as it was rolling down the track. A safety crew member in that first truck should of had an extinguisher on his lap ready to go and when they got there, jump out and start putting out the fire.

[e2mtt]

only 1 guy was actually trying to get her out of there, so but if its a fire, pull me out as fast as you can, how you think they wanted to pull her out, nice and slow, let her roast some more, she might've had a strap get struck to her or something, but I'm pretty sure being in a fire, I'd like to get yanked out as fast as possible. the others should not have a job anymore though

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

Fast is slow, slow is quick.

[00steven]

It was a pitiful excuse of an extrication but, The safety crew has done a marvalous job over the years. Remember Alex Zanardi's near fatal crash?

[markabilly]

Yeah, other than him, all of the rest of them would be led out of the track before the race was done. And I'd only leave him alone because at least he was doing something (exactly what, I'm not really sure - but it was something). Put a call out for some volunteer firemen and EMT's and let them complete the race.
actually he was as bad as the rest as he stood there as though thinking what to do, then failed to get the head restraint removed from the car, when he finally tried, at that point it was probably not possible to remove it due to the fire damage

and until the fire got really hot and she was being engulfed, he did little, but then finally tried to pull her from the side of the car, instead of turning her sideways and then lifting her straight up....

body does not bend too well sideways like he was doing to her

it was pitiful and as bad as when massa had his accident or when Ralf Schuie crashed the front straight at Indy

I have always held both IRL and the old CC safety responses as the prime example for others to follow, but tonight, well.....

only about 35 to 40 seconds to get her out from the time he arrived until he pulled her out.

Nothwithstanding the fire suits, the suits primarily keep the skin from catching fire. They do a poor job of heat insulation

[Scotty G.]

That was flat embarrassing work by the safety crews.

Very amateurish and very bad for a "supposed" top tier series.

[fugariracing]

It was a pitiful excuse of an extrication but, The safety crew has done a marvalous job over the years. Remember Alex Zanardi's near fatal crash?

The old CART/Champ Car safety crew did yes, the ones led by Drs. Steve Olvey and Terry Trammell. And thank god they did for that and many others over the years.

This current version of the Holmatro Safety Team is the same IndyCar crew just now in the Holmatro colors. After the unification in 2008, the old crew was not adopted as part of the transition. If they were, such an abominable situation would have been avoided, IMO.

[Jag_Warrior]

Already on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIatXMiyZ6w

Terrible. I though Indycar got the "amazing CART safety team" as part of the merger?

I think both Terry Trammell and Stephen Olvey left (were forced out of?) AOWR when CCWS took over from CART. I don't know who is involved in the IRL's crew, or if Olvey or Trammell have any input these days or not. Maybe once the safety crew twists & yanks your burned body out of the car, they would still operate on you - but I really don't know what their status is. I don't say this just because I was a major CART fan, but I'd have a hard time believing that these bumbling idiots could have even made it through the first round of cuts to be on the CART safety crew. There were some very screwy things about CART. But the safety crew was always considered to be world class. That was one area where F1 really didn't have a leg up on CART.



It was a pitiful excuse of an extrication but, The safety crew has done a marvalous job over the years. Remember Alex Zanardi's near fatal crash?

Unfortunately, I do. Had it been these goobers there, he would have bled out and died before they got themselves unbuckled and exited the safety truck.

I'm disappointed that the Versus/IRL announce crew didn't make more (anything, really!) of this. Even in NASCAR, DW (or one of the others) will hammer on something stupid, if it's so obvious that people will likely take issue with it after the race. I always thought pretty highly of Jon Beekhuis. Him, especially, I would have expected to say something more about this clownish display of unprofessionalism. And he's also Swiss. You'd think, if anyone would have, he'd have a problem with one of his countrymen(women) getting barbequed.

[markabilly]

That was one area where F1 really didn't have a leg up on CART.

.
yeah I was at the f1 race and sat in the stands while the joke of the f1 response team prevented a nearby safety crew from doing anything......while his car just sat there for several minutes with no one near and that was the wrost I have seen, in person or tv in 20 years.....tonight's response is the second worst I have seen in 20 years.... the only difference was that this was the F1 bosses dictating that stupid response....

this just seemed to be incompetence in the crew and whoever put them on the track.....

When she was interviewed I expected some danica tears....instead she was like nerves of steel....

[anthonyvop]

As soon as I saw the first crew pile out of the truck and nobody had a fire extinguisher I thought "this isn't going to be good"

I use to work at a motorsports facility. If our crew had performed as this one did we would have called them into the office after the race and handed them their final paychecks.

[ShiftingGears]

That was absolutely pathetic.

[Scotty G.]

As soon as I saw the first crew pile out of the truck and nobody had a fire extinguisher I thought "this isn't going to be good"

I use to work at a motorsports facility. If our crew had performed as this one did we would have called them into the office after the race and handed them their final paychecks.


Yep.

As much crap as NASCAR's safety teams took for so many years (and deservedly so, in most cases) this was awful tonight. The safety teams in CART and Indy Car were always top notch. Not sure what happened.

Maybe Randy needs to get aligned with SCCA. Because that is what it looked like. A club racing safety team.

[POS_Maggott]

Showboating with intricate "fire truck" systems almost cost them dearly tonight. It's as much the IRLs fault as it was the crews.

Even F1 uses fire bottles... The IRL boys can't even use their brains.

[Lousada]

It's weird they didn't make assignments on who would do what when they got out of the car. Instead all four of them went straight to get the waterhose.
That one guy that starts yanking her out, looked like he didn't keep his composure. Not really encouraging behaviour for a safety crew member.

[GRW1983]

That was an absolute disgrace. I'm surprised Simona didn't punch the Safety crew for taking so long to get her out. Why did they just stand there and do nothing!!!??? SHE'S ON FIRE!!!! DO SOMETHING!!!, DON'T JUST STAND THERE!!!. I have to say that whilst removing the head-restraint seemed to be the issue in her getting out, that shouldn't be an issue. I thought IndyCar drivers, like F1 drivers had to be able to exit the car in 5 seconds. If you look at Kanaan's crash from Indy, he removed the steering wheel, unbuckled and climbed out as did Helio, and Moraes. I understand removal of the head-collar if a driver was injured for better extracation, but that was absolutely shocking. Very poor indeed.

[shazbot]

Thank goodness she didn't have any other injury, which would have unboubtedly been worsed by her removal from the car. Just as pitiful is the commentators lack of criticism. Are they that much under the PR thumb of the IRL? Call it like it is.

[GRW1983]

Also, reminds me of Carpenter's crash at Chicago 2008. On fire, but couldn't get out until head-collar was removed. I understand this is a safety innovation, but I've always thought this would, unnecessarily, delay a driver from exiting the car. A driver should be able to remove the steering wheel, unbuckle and climb out. The radio. drinks pipe, air pipe should just disconnect if your in a hurry to get out. What I don't understand is that why do some drivers HAVE to remove the head-collar to get out and others don't. EVERY driver should be able to get out of the car WITHOUT removing the head-collar because that wastes precious seconds as was evident with Simona. IndyCar officials MUST act over this so this doesn't happen again, or remind ALL drivers to exit the car, in a fire situation, WITHOUT trying to remove the head collar. This could have been a lot worse and HVM are absolutely spot-on with their criticism of the Safety team. They should publicly apologise as well.

[Easy Drifter]

Thanks to TSN putting the race on TSN2 I did not see it but from the comments it was pretty bad.
Back in the 70's, no less, the Cdn. Race Communications Marshals were trained by the then Scarborough Fire Dept. with those manning the Safety Trucks receiving additional training at CFB Trenton from the Airforce Firefighters.
Further they had one person on the trucks outfitted with full entry suits and others in firefighter bunker suits. I know, my ex was Director of Safety for CRCA and was the first woman to wear one of the entry suits. They sat in the trucks with the engine running when cars were on track fully suited up except for the helmet. Not the most comfortable way to spend a hot day at the track.
I do not know about CRCA today or the Mosport Marshal group.

[markabilly]

she was lucky to have not been hurt worse.
from the time the first respneder had his foot on the pavement until she was out of the car was about 40 seconds....but she had already been in a car on fire for about another 25 seconds with the fire coming up into her face and on one side.
time to second degree burn in a top rated suit under the SFI 3.2A/20, is 40 seconds
but a heavy and hot suit.

http://www.profoxracing.com/sfi.html

http://www.circletrack.com/featuredvehicles/ctrp_0702_racing_firesuits/tips_advice.html





I do not beleive most drivers wear anything more than a SFI 3.2A/5....which is good for about a whole 9 seconds before 2nd degree burns set in......

she was lucky the fire had not gotten down inside the leg and/or body area inside the cockpit, or she would be in serious or critical condtion in a burn unit without question

[GRW1983]

I watched this again on Youtube and the head-collar was certainly the problem. Once she came to rest, she had the steering wheel off immediately, and was then trying to remove the head-collar but it wouldn't move. After several failed attempts, it looks like, eventually, the right-hand side of the collar snapped and she could sort of get out of the car. She would've been able to get out herself, I think, at this stage but because two or three safety workers started pulling on her before she was fully 'up' from her seat, that made it worse for a few more seconds. She was being yanked left when she needed to come up first and that's why it took her so long to get out. The safety team has so much to answer for this. Absolutely appalling. If that had been me, I'd have been so angry. Simona's reaction afterwards showed what a true professional she is. She was almost blaming herself for her failure to exit the car quickly. Not a lot of things in IndyCar get to me, but this most certainly has and I think something MUST be done. Rant over. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[TURN3]

Just got back from a different race this weekend. Missed the IRL race as the motel didn't have VERSES on it's cable line up.

Several comments.

1) Absolutely terrible performance by the safety crew. Untrained Bozos all.
2) The CART safety teams were all told their services were not needed after the merger.
3) By the way, all of the CART folks were working EMT/Paramedics in their real day time jobs. Don't know about the IRL people.
4) Please don't insult the volunteer SCCA safety people by comparing them to this bunch. They are much better.

I figured you'd eventually have a comment Starter based on your experience. It was pretty bad. Thankfully she's ok.

[POS_Maggott]

Thanks to TSN putting the race on TSN2 I did not see it but from the comments it was pretty bad.
Back in the 70's, no less, the Cdn. Race Communications Marshals were trained by the then Scarborough Fire Dept. with those manning the Safety Trucks receiving additional training at CFB Trenton from the Airforce Firefighters.
Further they had one person on the trucks outfitted with full entry suits and others in firefighter bunker suits. I know, my ex was Director of Safety for CRCA and was the first woman to wear one of the entry suits. They sat in the trucks with the engine running when cars were on track fully suited up except for the helmet. Not the most comfortable way to spend a hot day at the track.
I do not know about CRCA today or the Mosport Marshal group.

I actually do track rescue for BARC, working Mosport, Shannonville and, when it's in town, the Indy. I've done it for a few years, I've never been in a truck without my firesuit on, and the truck running. The only thing that we aren't required to wear at all times are gloves, balaclavas and helmets...

[Marbles]

CART, or AOWR, safety teams professionalism was always above reproach.

2 incidents to compare:

F1: Schumacher (Ralf) sitting alone and unattended for what seemed to be an eternity at Indianapolis.

Champcar: The 20 second response time to Katherine Legge's massive wreck at Road America... it was breathtaking! They were positioned properly and mobile before the car stopped rolling.

This incident was a joke. It was Saturday night late models! It was NASCAR! Three stooges. You would imagine they prepare endlessly for that one moment. At least they didn't have that big chubby guy from the "old" IRL days running around.

It looked like an I****** fire drill.

[SoCalPVguy]

I have seen some amateurs on safety crews before (usually at short and dirt tracks), but these clowns who let Simona roast are the WORST I have EVER seen!

I have reviewed the Youtube video in detail and could not agree more... A slow approach, a very casual attitude, lack of instantaneous dry-extinguisher use, I mean look at the guy strolling out with a water hose... Jeeze its lucky she didn't get seriously injured. Boos all the way around for that so called safety crew. The rough final driver pull out was necessary because they "f'ed" around at the start and time was getting very short for the driver

[Easy Drifter]

Speed Report did not show much of the 'rescue' effort. The fire at the Glen was also very disturbing and again not much shown. Apparently it was team crews from the pits who got to it first.
Wind Tunnel with Robin Miller and Tony Kanaan might be enlightening or a whitewash.
It seems the various organizering bodies may have become a little casual about fire and rescue.
The comments from the Ont. rescue marshal POS- Maggott indicates they are not as well equipped for fire as CRCA was in the 70's when full aluminized Entry Suits and proper Bunker Suits were in use.
That is not a critisism of POS.

[markabilly]

CART, or AOWR, safety teams professionalism was always above reproach.

2 incidents to compare:

F1: Schumacher (Ralf) sitting alone and unattended for what seemed to be an eternity at Indianapolis.

Champcar: The 20 second response time to Katherine Legge's massive wreck at Road America... it was breathtaking! They were positioned properly and mobile before the car stopped rolling.

This incident was a joke. It was Saturday night late models! It was NASCAR! Three stooges. You would imagine they prepare endlessly for that one moment. At least they didn't have that big chubby guy from the "old" IRL days running around.

It looked like an I****** fire drill.

The RS accident response was mandated by f1 antiquated response procedures.....a safety crew was standing by a short distance, with an ambulance, but was not permitted to respond until the morons realized they could not get him out with his back injury--he was lucky he did not have a major bleeder or he would have bleed out before they got to him

TMS was just stupid---9 or ten seconds is not long, but with fire, it is the difference between life and a slow painful death that can take 2 to 3 weeks before it is over--those fire suits provide a false sense of safety for the driver as to the need for immediate effective response to put out the fire...


one reason for the lack of an immediate effective response is that the fuel cells have been so effective in preventing fires in a crash......but obviously, they are not perfect and that is no excuse.

so even the old cc crew might have been a little slow....maybe???

but inexcusable just the same

[Marbles]

The rough final driver pull out was necessary because they "f'ed" around at the start and time was getting very short for the driver

Agreed. I could care less about the heavy-handed extraction. If they had ripped her head off I would understand the concern but the lady was on fire. The man with the extinguisher and the extraction specialist stepped up when all about them were losing their heads.

Note to IRL: Keep those two guys.

[markabilly]

Agreed. I could care less about the heavy-handed extraction. If they had ripped her head off I would understand the concern but the lady was on fire. The man with the extinguisher and the extraction specialist stepped up when all about them were losing their heads.

Note to IRL: Keep those two guys.
the heavy handed extraction was one reason it took so long..and totally unnecessary, except they panicked which made it worse....she was lucky not to have broken bones, esp leg, from that stuff...

they should have reached in and pulled her up, because them by pulling on her that way, she could not get out, on her own, and it was her actions, on her own, getting sideways and trying to stand up [while they tried to pull her sideways instead of up]....that got her out of the car

She had to work against the car and against them!!!!

There was only one hero, and that was her, and none of them!!!!!

[Marbles]

the heavy handed extraction was one reason it took so long..and totally unnecessary, except they panicked which made it worse....she was lucky not to have broken bones, esp leg, from that stuff...

they should have reached in and pulled her up, because them by pulling on her that way, she could not get out, on her own, and it was her actions, on her own, getting sideways and trying to stand up [while they tried to pull her sideways instead of up]....that got her out of the car

She had to work against the car and against them!!!!

There was only one hero, and that was her, and none of them!!!!!

I don't agree entirely but you make a good point. Maybe one of the guys standing in the background knew better on how to extract the driver than the one who was actually attempting to help her. One rescuer applied the extinguisher to her as another, in a somewhat ham-fisted fashion, attempted to extract her. I don't think his efforts were entirely self-defeating.

[GRW1983]

the heavy handed extraction was one reason it took so long..and totally unnecessary, except they panicked which made it worse....she was lucky not to have broken bones, esp leg, from that stuff...

they should have reached in and pulled her up, because them by pulling on her that way, she could not get out, on her own, and it was her actions, on her own, getting sideways and trying to stand up [while they tried to pull her sideways instead of up]....that got her out of the car

She had to work against the car and against them!!!!

There was only one hero, and that was her, and none of them!!!!!

I totally agree with you. They took far too long to begin to put out the fire. It seemed to me that Simona thought the safety team would put the fire out before she was out of the car. She had the wheel off and was trying to remove the head collar, then the collar wouldn't budge but nobody was putting the fire out so she was then getting a little hot and bothered. They still weren't putting the fire out and that's when the safety guys panicked because Simona couldn't remove the collar. The very heavy-handed extraction was a complete joke because, as you say, she had to come up before going sideways and IMO if they had left her alone, I think she would have got herself out in time. I've always had fears that removing the head-collar unnecessarily wastes time when exiting the car. eg. Kanaan's 1st Indy practice crash, wheel off, unbuckled, climbed out, didn't need to remove head-collar, also the Helio/Moraes crash, both drivers, wheel off, unbuckled, climbed out without having to remove the head collar. F1 drivers have to exit a car within 5 seconds, does this apply in the IRL??? If it does, then Simona's crash needs serious attention because she could not exit the car. I know drivers are supposed to remain in their cars, on an oval, but in a situation like Simona's they should be able to exit the car, quickly, without unnecessary delay by removing the head collar. Ideally, car stops, wheel off, unbuckle, climb out with radio, drinks pipe & air pipe disconnecting easily as you exit the car.

[dataman1]

I see 2 possible improvements that could take place quickly. !.) Make the safety team wear head & face fire protection. A full-face shield might be of help. 2.) Drivers, safety team and team mebers don't wear nomex underliner gloves under their current gloves like they do on their bodies, head and feet. That would give everyone a few more seconds of time.

[Chamoo]

I see 2 possible improvements that could take place quickly. !.) Make the safety team wear head & face fire protection. A full-face shield might be of help. 2.) Drivers, safety team and team mebers don't wear nomex underliner gloves under their current gloves like they do on their bodies, head and feet. That would give everyone a few more seconds of time.

Agreed. Atleast have two guys on each truck fully equipped to handle a fire situation, including a full faced helmet (or even a normal helmet with a slide down face mask), and full body protection including face and hands and feet.

I understand the need to have some of the team wearing open faced helmets to speak to the drivers when they are injured, but something that slides down from the helmet over the face to protect from flames would be ideal. Also, the entire team does not need to be decked out in it, but only 2 from each truck, as only 2 members can really get close enough to pull a driver out from a burning accident.

Whatever happens, they need to make sure this doesn't happen again.

[downtowndeco]

What sort of set up does the NHRA Safety Safari have? They have foam spraying on burning Funny Cars sometimes before they even stop rolling. They don't have to dick around w/unrolling hoses & all that. I understand they have a much different area they need to "patrol" ( about 1/2 mile of straight stretch) but still, they are able to roll up on a wreck w/the foam spraying. Perhaps the IRL should take a look at their set up.

[anthonyvop]

What sort of set up does the NHRA Safety Safari have? They have foam spraying on burning Funny Cars sometimes before they even stop rolling. They don't have to dick around w/unrolling hoses & all that. I understand they have a much different area they need to "patrol" ( about 1/2 mile of straight stretch) but still, they are able to roll up on a wreck w/the foam spraying. Perhaps the IRL should take a look at their set up.

Apples and oranges. I worked at a track that had a drag strip and a road course. On a drag strip u just need one team at the finish and another at the end of the run-off. Plus some fire bottles at the start.

[downtowndeco]

I understand why it takes longer to get to a crash on an oval or roadcourse (VS a drag strip). My point was once the crew got there why was it they had to **** around with their equiptment for so long? The NHRA crew rolls up w/the foam spraying. Why can't the IRL (or NASCAR, for that matter), do the same?


Apples and oranges. I worked at a track that had a drag strip and a road course. On a drag strip u just need one team at the finish and another at the end of the run-off. Plus some fire bottles at the start.

[GRW1983]

Just read a very interesting article in the Winnipeg Free Press by David Richert regarding Simona's crash. He talks about an 'exit' test from the car at the start of the season that every driver must take. They must pass in a set period of time before being allowed to compete. How long is this time period in IndyCar and do they even perform this test or do they rely, entirely, on the safety team???

[Chris R]

I THINK one of the issues we may be missing (that points to a more systematic problem) is that the water hoses are good for an alcohol fire - this was NOT an alcohol fire.... Perhaps the guys standing around with limp hoses were leery of pouring water on an oil fire which could have made the situation much worse..... Hamilton was clearly right that these guys are not used to dealing with fire - but maybe he actually meant oil/chassis fire which this appeared to be... They hopped out ready to fight an ethanol fire and realized it wasn't and then froze.....

also, I doubt a Honda Ridgeline is capable of carrying enough WATER to put out the type of fire we saw - they needed extinguishers.... I'd like to know if they are not included on the truck or if they are not trained to take them to the car etc...... I suspect they depend on the fire being alcohol based and someone took the bottles out of the routine response to an accident since they have the water hoses....

I am offering no excuses - only possible explanations..... I agree the safety teams did a poor job but the likely solution is retraining and better preparation not throwing them under the bus..... (do you think these guys will ever make the same mistake again?? - they probably are feeling p'oed at themselves right now...)

[anthonyvop]

I understand why it takes longer to get to a crash on an oval or roadcourse (VS a drag strip). My point was once the crew got there why was it they had to **** around with their equiptment for so long? The NHRA crew rolls up w/the foam spraying. Why can't the IRL (or NASCAR, for that matter), do the same?

Because they don't want to.

[Shifter]

Maybe Randy needs to get aligned with SCCA. Because that is what it looked like. A club racing safety team.

Our DC Region SCCA workers/EV Responders could have run circles around that ragtag bunch at TMS saturday night, TYVM.

[POS_Maggott]

The comments from the Ont. rescue marshal POS- Maggott indicates they are not as well equipped for fire as CRCA was in the 70's when full aluminized Entry Suits and proper Bunker Suits were in use.
That is not a critisism of POS.

I definitely don't take it as a criticism. I know what we focus on is just getting the thing put out as quickly as we can, which seems like the logical thing to do until someone has to dive headfirst into the fire. I don't envy the guy who has to do that, and pray every day at the track that we won't have to.

Not having been around when they did use those suits, I wonder how bulky they were? Would it have been easy to move around in? And did every member of the crew wear one?

[markabilly]

but maybe he actually meant oil/chassis fire which this appeared to be... They hopped out ready to fight an ethanol fire and realized it wasn't and then froze.....

[quote:17kr7t01]

[/quote:17kr7t01]
Good question, but my focus was not on getting a fire out, but getting a driver out....that should always be the focus, because as I said before, the fire suits are only good for a few seconds before the heat causes second degree burns and then worse....

as to her getting out without assistance, there is the question of anyone being physically shook up from the impact, and then there is the question of whether there was some protrusion of the chassis into the car that had her legs or body pinned beyond the head-neck restraint which may have been pushed in and confined her......questions I do not know the answer to.....

But what I do know is that pulling on her like that, only made it worse, not better

[Easy Drifter]

Only one person per vehicle in full entry suit. One or more in a fireman's bunker suit. Others either in Nomex or just usual marshal's cottons.
They are bulky and uncomfortable but allow the wearer to enter a full blown fire. My ex will be with me and she wore one. She was also the first woman to win a formula car race overall in Ont.
You can see what they are like from several manufacturers by checking Google under Fire Entry Suits.
If you are at the Vintage Festival at Mosport in a couple of weeks we should try and meet.
I will be there one or two days on a Press Pass.
I also write professionally. See my signature line.
My latest article is on a massive building fire.

[markabilly]

I THINK one of the issues we may be missing (that points to a more systematic problem) is that the water hoses are good for an alcohol fire - this was NOT an alcohol fire.... Perhaps the guys standing around with limp hoses were leery of pouring water on an oil fire which could have made the situation much worse..... Hamilton was clearly right that these guys are not used to dealing with fire - but maybe he actually meant oil/chassis fire which this appeared to be... They hopped out ready to fight an ethanol fire and realized it wasn't and then froze.....

.)


Good question, but my focus was not on getting a fire out, but getting a driver out....that should always be the focus, because as I said before, the fire suits are only good for a few seconds before the heat causes second degree burns and then worse....

as to her getting out without assistance, there is the question of anyone being physically shook up from the impact, and then there is the question of whether there was some protrusion of the chassis into the car that had her legs or body pinned beyond the head-neck restraint which also may have been pushed in and confined her......questions I do not know the answer to.....

But what I do know is that pulling on her like that, only made it worse, not better

[markabilly]

Epaulett

I know that Danica think they are the latest fashion in driver suits that make her shoulder appear straighter, but they are not ornamental shoulder piece or decoration hold overs from the dress uniforms of calvarly officers....



http://urbansportstalk.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/danica-patrick.jpg


Seems our extractors thought arm grabbing was the proper technique, but it is not.....

the purpose is in an emergency demanding immediate extraction from a difficult position, as when the driver may be jammed in where there is fire...., for safety workers to grab and use to pull up and then pull out the driver....something that should be drilled into every safety worker

[beachbum]

Because they don't want to.That has to be the most ignorant, obnoxious post I have read about safety. Right, they want people to be hurt. I know your fellow travelers on another infamous forum spew such crap all the time, but show a bit of respect and common sense.

[markabilly]

I agree, i do think that everyone had no desire to see somone get hurt because of their reaction or non-reaction to the accident.

But best intentions is not a substitute for proper training and preparation

I also think having a foam truck arriving and spraying foam everywhere, presents safety problems for the other cars who are still on the track that are not present on a drag strip.

in this case and the other ow accidents involving fire of the last 20 years, that i can think of, large hand held extinguishers have been very effective when used correctly

[garyshell]

That has to be the most ignorant, obnoxious post I have read about safety. Right, they want people to be hurt. I know your fellow travelers on another infamous forum spew such crap all the time, but show a bit of respect and common sense.

Good luck with that.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

That has to be the most ignorant, obnoxious post I have read about safety. Right, they want people to be hurt. I know your fellow travelers on another infamous forum spew such crap all the time, but show a bit of respect and common sense.


If they wanted to they could have had a better trained and equipped safety crew. But they didn't.

How am I wrong?

I realize my bluntness turns some people off but the fact is they could ring the track with 100 Trauma surgeons trained in firefighting, have a fire hose every 20 feet and have a helicopter hover over the track ready to dump fire retardant foam within seconds of the 1st sign of flames but they don't. For various reasons.

When the series heads are together discussing safety I am sure some ideas are thrown around that are dismissed due to practicality and cost. You can be damn sure that somebody said....."We don't want to do that."

Safety in racing is always a compromise. If it wasn't then there wouldn't even be any racing.

[the bro]

Here are my observations:

Shouldn't the first guy (or gal) out of the truck bring a fire extinguisher with them? Even though they were planning on using the hose, they would have a backup if it didn't work. I seem to recall with the CART team that was standard procedure.

Shouldn't they work as a team with each having separate responsibilities. One or two to help the driver and one to fight the fire. Seems like the first crew gave up on fighting the fire when the hose didn't work. The second crew was the only one that mounted any firefighting effort. If they had been able to knock down the fire they wouldn't have had to rip her out of the car like that.

[Easy Drifter]

We suddenly seem to be having a rash of fires and not just in IC. I have a feeling that fire suppression may have become lower on the priorities than it used to be and again not just in IC, witness the Glen.
From what I have gleaned from one of our members who marshals at Ont. tracks the crash/fire crews are not as well protected as they were in the 70's when trucks had people in full fire entry suits and other in firemens' bunker suits not just nomex.
Maybe all organizations had better have a closer look at their fire recue/fighting capabilities. We sure as heck do not need drivers or rescue people badly burned or dying in a fire.

[the bro]

I think it was a not a well executed plan if they had a plan. When the first truck arrives all 4 guys go for the hose, no one immediatley goes for the driver. How many guys do you need to operate the hose? 2 maybe. Wouldn't you figure the guys in the truck would have clearly defined roles about who does what on arrival at the scene?

The 8th person on the scene, from the second vehicle, is the first person to appear with a fire extinguisher to a fire!

I did some marshalling in my time, and we were trained to always take a fire extinguisher, no exceptions. Even to a car with a flat tire. When the
8th guy on the scene used the extinguisher it seems from the footage he was able to put it out, with one fire extinguisher. If the first guy on the scene had a fire extinguisher it would have been a completely different situation.

[NickFalzone]

We suddenly seem to be having a rash of fires and not just in IC. I have a feeling that fire suppression may have become lower on the priorities than it used to be and again not just in IC, witness the Glen.
From what I have gleaned from one of our members who marshals at Ont. tracks the crash/fire crews are not as well protected as they were in the 70's when trucks had people in full fire entry suits and other in firemens' bunker suits not just nomex.
Maybe all organizations had better have a closer look at their fire recue/fighting capabilities. We sure as heck do not need drivers or rescue people badly burned or dying in a fire.

There have been quite a few fires recently in IndyCar, of which Kanaan has partaken in several. Lack of expectation is no excuse. Really, there was no good reason for the lack of preparation in this circumstance. As soon as they were at the accident 1 worker should have been spraying with the portable extinguisher, another working on extraction, while 2 others worked the firehose. She easily could have had critical injuries and luck as much as anything prevented this from happening. I don't care what kind of firesuit you have on, you cannot sit engulfed in a burning cockpit for half a minute and not expect to have severe burns.

[Marbles]

Really, there was no good reason for the lack of preparation in this circumstance. As soon as they were at the accident 1 worker should have been spraying with the portable extinguisher, another working on extraction, while 2 others worked the firehose.

I guess the most shocking thing for me was the lack of extinguishers. I just expected 3 or 4 of them to be going as soon as the crews arrived but it seemed they were all intent on getting those stinikin' hoses fired up.

[nigelred5]

Sometimes it seems like they are totally geared at an alcohol fire. They don;t seem as prepared for an oil/ composite bodywork fire that needs more than a squirt of water.

[Marbles]

Sometimes it seems like they are totally geared at an alcohol fire. They don;t seem as prepared for an oil/ composite bodywork fire that needs more than a squirt of water.

Isn't there an "ABC" extinguisher or suppressant they use? They have to choose the tool for the task?

I know the pits have buckets of water and hoses for fuel flare ups but I thought the safety crews would have a fits all solution.

[Easy Drifter]

Should any magnesium ignite before they get the fire out water is just about the last thing you want to be using. An extremely dangerous mix!

[anthonyvop]

Here are my observations:

Shouldn't the first guy (or gal) out of the truck bring a fire extinguisher with them? .

Ya think so huh?

I can honestly say that was one of the most inept displays of emergency work by what is suppose to be a professional team I have ever seen in racing.

[Marbles]

I guess we've focused on the poor safety team's shortcomings enough so now let's look at the driver. Why couldn't she get herself out? She\he is number one person responsible for exiting the car unless they are actually trapped or incapacitated.

Since they do have some sort of soft rule or time limit on a driver's ability to remove himself unassisted from the cockpit why is it that, if I got a nickel for every time I saw an open wheel driver tangle themselves up in their audio wire, water tubes, ipod, etc when exiting a car under even the most leisurely circumstances, I could buy Paul Tracy a ride!

[GRW1983]

I guess we've focused on the poor safety team's shortcomings enough so now let's look at the driver. Why couldn't she get herself out? She\he is number one person responsible for exiting the car unless they are actually trapped or incapacitated.

Since they do have some sort of soft rule or time limit on a driver's ability to remove himself unassisted from the cockpit why is it that, if I got a nickel for every time I saw an open wheel driver tangle themselves up in their audio wire, water tubes, ipod, etc when exiting a car under even the most leisurely circumstances, I could buy Paul Tracy a ride!

You are so right. Look at TK at Indy or Helio/Moraes as well. In those cases, the drivers had the wheel off, unbuckled and climbed out with the minimum of fuss. Helio was out of the car before the safety trucks arrived and TK was busy putting the wheel back on when the trucks at Indy arrived. Moraes was only delayed by Helio being angry, but hopped out as soon as Helio was moved.

In Simona's case, I genuinely believe that she thought the safety team would extinguish the fire BEFORE she had to exit the car. When the flames started licking the side of the cockpit and she realised the flames WEREN'T being tackled, she had to extract herself from the car. She would, IMO, have done so herself had the safety team not panicked and yanked her sideways from the car before she was fully 'up' from her seat. A critical failing of the safety team as that, inadvertently, delayed her exit further from the car. In all honesty though, how hard does it have to be to unbuckle and climb out???

Jon Beekhuis said on Versus that "you need to get the head-collar out" and "it's very difficult to get out of these cars" which begs the question WHY???
Surely, that causes unnecessary delay in an emergency situation like Simona's. TK & Helio proved that you DON'T need to remove the head-collar to climb out after a crash, so why do some drivers HAVE to and others DON'T. I think this issue needs to be addressed. Radio/audio wires, drinks/air pipe should also be easily accessible to the driver so that he/she can easily disconnect them after a crash, so that they can make a quick exit from the car, ESPECIALLY, in the event of a fire.

[Easy Drifter]

My understanding is that the collar had jammed. Possibly caused by a distortion of the tub in the crash. The ease of which the driver gets out with it in place may also depend on the driver's seat and how they sit in a car. PT indicated he had to remove the collar before he could get out.
I do not know but am speculating.

[GRW1983]

My understanding is that the collar had jammed. Possibly caused by a distortion of the tub in the crash. The ease of which the driver gets out with it in place may also depend on the driver's seat and how they sit in a car. PT indicated he had to remove the collar before he could get out.
I do not know but am speculating.

I suppose every driver is different, but if some drivers have to remove the collar to get out and others don't, then those drivers are at a serious disadvantage to the others. Surely, it SHOULD be the SAME for EVERYBODY. As it stands, some drivers will be in their cars for about 10-15 seconds longer than they need to be. As we saw with Simona, this could be the difference between getting burned and suffering no injuries at all.

For example, say TK could exit his car in 5 seconds, but PT took 15 seconds, does the IRL say that all drivers must exit their cars in 15 seconds or less??? Or do they say, sorry PT 15 seconds is too slow, you need to out in 5 seconds. A standard should exist and EVERYBODY must keep to that standard at ALL times. However, it wouldn't surprise me if nothing is mentioned of this at the next race or any race in the future.

[Mark in Oshawa]

To blame Simona for any part of it is to of course be speaking from experience of personally getting out of one of these cars after an accident like this? None of you have done it? ok...well there goes that, we are only speculating what was going through Simona's head. It is one thing to practice getting out for the IRL people to show you can do it in 5 seconds or whatever in the paddock, it is yet another thing to have to do it after knocking down the wall and having the car on fire.

I lay this at the feet of the inept IRL types who bought up the remnants of CART/CCWS and disposed of the ONE thing they did better than anyone else, the safety team.

These bozos Saturday night just proved what a mickey mouse organization Tony George built and Brian Barnhart continues to administrate. Randy Bernard, if you were NOT in the office demanding answers Monday, you better have been handing out pink slips when you did get there.

This was in excusable, and Starter's point is dead on. SCCA crews and up here, CRCA/MMS crews would have more a clue on how to handle a fire like this. ABC extinguishers work on oil fires which this was. It wasn't a fuel fire, the fuel bladders held....it was really just the oil sump fire and the bodywork going up. It wasn't that tough a deal, yet these bumpkins couldn't handle it....

[garyshell]

http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c54102/x2_1923225

The picture says it all.

Gary

[Jag_Warrior]

Wow!!! :eek:

She's REALLY lucky to have not been more seriously injured.

[NickFalzone]

Wow!!! :eek:

She's REALLY lucky to have not been more seriously injured.

It is a minor miracle that she did not get seriously burned or worse. If the fire spread just a little further into the cockpit, and if it took just another 15-20 seconds to get her out, I think we'd be looking at a much more serious situation.

[Civic]

I wonder if she was told not to exit the car. I've seen a few crashes on TV and they had audio of the team asking the driver if he/she is okay and to not move and stay in the car. Maybe they thought the fire wouldn't grow like that since those type of fires don't really do that.

[GRW1983]

http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c54102/x2_1923225

The picture says it all.

Gary

My god!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: , I didn't realise she was THAT close to suffering serious burns. After seeing this, IndyCar officials should burn with shame, if you'll excuse the pun, how the hell can they justify themselves on this evidence. All I can say is that her protective equipment did it's job and saved her from further injury. However, it should never have had to protect her for that length of time, had the safety team done it's job properly. That picture should haunt IndyCar officials for a very long time.

[markabilly]

To blame Simona for any part of it is to of course be speaking from experience of personally getting out of one of these cars after an accident like this? None of you have done it? ok...well there goes that, we are only speculating what was going through Simona's head. It is one thing to practice getting out for the IRL people to show you can do it in 5 seconds or whatever in the paddock, it is yet another thing to have to do it after knocking down the wall and having the car on fire.
....

Very true....


http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c54102/x2_1923225

The picture says it all.

Gary


I wonder if she was told not to exit the car. I've seen a few crashes on TV and they had audio of the team asking the driver if he/she is okay and to not move and stay in the car. Maybe they thought the fire wouldn't grow like that since those type of fires don't really do that.

Good, point and since in such accidents, one can suffer extremely serious injuries without realizing it......probably the very best approach is to get the fire out ASAP, then examine and carefully move the driver, but here, it got really stupid, really fast, as demonstrated by the helmet......

[GRW1983]

My god!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: , I didn't realise she was THAT close to suffering serious burns. After seeing this, IndyCar officials should burn with shame, if you'll excuse the pun, how the hell can they justify themselves on this evidence. All I can say is that her protective equipment did it's job and saved her from further injury. However, it should never have had to protect her for that length of time, had the safety team done it's job properly. That picture should haunt IndyCar officials for a very long time.

I actually didn't realise this at the time, but if you watch closely in the footage you can clearly see that Simona's helmet does actually catch fire and burns for a few seconds. That's why the safety worker trying to get her out seems to put his hand over Simona's head because, at first, I wasn't sure what he was doing.

[wedge]

Judging by Miller's analysis the debacle was an utter joke.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-cool-under-fire/

[Jag_Warrior]

It is a minor miracle that she did not get seriously burned or worse. If the fire spread just a little further into the cockpit, and if it took just another 15-20 seconds to get her out, I think we'd be looking at a much more serious situation.

Judging by the looks of her visor, it really is a miracle that she didn't inhale fumes from the burning composites, or even worse, the actual flames.

BTW, does anyone know if any of these goobers have been fired... especially whoever is in charge of supervising, training and validating these crews? Maybe you could retrain the actual workers and turn them into something worthwhile. But whoever is over them is (obviously) totally incompetent and a lost cause (IMO)... and really the person that I blame the most.

[anthonyvop]

But whoever is over them is (obviously) totally incompetent and a lost cause (IMO)... and really the person that I blame the most.

That would be Barnhart.

[Jag_Warrior]

That would be Barnhart.

Perfect. That's a person who (IMO) should have been fired a loooong time ago. I would say this is about strike 15 for that clown.

[markabilly]

The key part of miller's article was buried at the bottom:


Simona’s situation aside, we need to recognize Wally Dallenbach, who launched CART’s safety team over 30 years ago, the rapid response and care of drivers in open wheel is without peer in motorsports. Alex Zanardi’s life was saved, on the track in Germany in 2001, by Dr. Terry Trammell and CART’s rescue squad stands as the benchmark.

The Holmatro safety team in IndyCar has carried on that tradition and usually responds to any situation with the urgency, protection and professionalism required.

But last Saturday night was unacceptable.

According to eyewitnesses, the first IndyCar worker on the scene of Simona de Silvestro’s blazing car had a kink in his hose and the pump on his truck (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/#) wasn’t strong enough to drive the water through that kink.

The second person didn’t get the pin out of the extinguisher and there was a delay until he realized that but he damaged the handle while pulling it out, which caused flow problems.

With the fire spreading and no fire bottles properly operating, Indy native Mike Yates finally had the good sense to grab Simona and yank her out of the car.

I reported on WIND TUNNEL last Sunday night that there was also a Texas Motor Speedway crew involved but that was incorrect. The TMS fire truck in Turn 3, just a few yards from de Silvestro’s flaming car, was NEVER called to respond. Instead, IndyCar dispatched one crew from Turn 4 and another from Turn 1 (which eventually put out the fire).

Good sense????? :hot:

The clown named Yates nearly broke a bone or two and hindered rather than helped her exit.... :down:


Strange how he tries to connect the old champ car safety crew, when they are no longer there, to try to give some legitimacy to this keystone cop fire drill, and he had the audacity on national TV to bad mouth the local crews who had nothing to do with this pitiful effort as it was all IRL, but buries this at the bottom of some article....

[Jag_Warrior]

And in "Well, Duh!" news:


IndyCar Series officials have determined that the safety crew that came to Simona de Silvestro's rescue in that fiery crash on June 5 at Texas Motor Speedway didn't follow its own procedures. Namely, the first man at the scene didn't take a canister to begin battling the fire. Instead, his first action was to assist in releasing the truck's water hose.


IndyCar: Fire crew didn't follow procedures to help Simona de Silvestro at Texas (http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100617/IRL/100619884)

[Chamoo]

The clown named Yates nearly broke a bone or two and hindered rather than helped her exit.... :down: [/B]

I'm sure Simona was quite happy to have this Yates fellow yanking her out of the car. Sure, the situation was not good, and they messed things up, but I would rather have a sore Simona due to being pulled roughly from a car then have a charred Simona that needs skin graphs and surgeries and is unable to drive for months if not years.

I'm not at all upset with the urgency to pull her from the car once someone realized what the Milka Duno was going on. Sure, it should never had gotten to that point, but when it did, I was not upset with the way he went about it, and I doubt Simona was either.

[garyshell]

I'm sure Simona was quite happy to have this Yates fellow yanking her out of the car. Sure, the situation was not good, and they messed things up, but I would rather have a sore Simona due to being pulled roughly from a car then have a charred Simona that needs skin graphs and surgeries and is unable to drive for months if not years.

I'm not at all upset with the urgency to pull her from the car once someone realized what the Milka Duno was going on. Sure, it should never had gotten to that point, but when it did, I was not upset with the way he went about it, and I doubt Simona was either.

Can I get an amen brothers and sisters?

Gary

[slorydn1]

Can I get an amen brothers and sisters?

Gary

Amen.

I do have a question, and please excuse the ignorance because I spent 15 years not watching OW racing waiting for re-unification, but don't Indy cars have some way of self extinguishing fires, and if not, WHY NOT?????

The most technologically challenged racing series on the planet-Nascar-has TWO on board fire suppression systems in the car. One that's activated by the driver in the "cab" and one that's automatically activated in the trunk-fuel cell area at the back of the car. If memory serves, the in car system is chemical powder and the trunk system is Halon gas.

[markabilly]

better look again, he was pulling her arm and keeping her off balance....the proper way is to pull them up by holding the body, or preferably by using epauletts which is why they are there

but it was far better than just standing around, piddling with a fire hose....

I remember they used to have them in OW racers, but as to why they do not have them now, I do not know. There is a question I have and I do not know the answer, as to the effect of breathing in the chemicals into the lungs and how to protect the driver from the chemicals?????

[Mark in Oshawa]

Perfect. That's a person who (IMO) should have been fired a loooong time ago. I would say this is about strike 15 for that clown.

Ditto.

The CART safety team morphed into the CCWS safety team, but when Tony bought the brand, that was all he bought. The best thing they did, he ignored. Did he do this for spite, cost cutting or because Brian Barnhart told him they were overrated? Who knows?

I just know that Terry Trammell and the boys with the CART safety team would have not stepped on their crank on national TV like those keystone cops did.

It is stuff like this that makes me worry about the future of Indycar racing, because this is nuts and bolts stuff. If you cannot get this right, what the hell else are you screwing up?

[GRW1983]

Ditto.

The CART safety team morphed into the CCWS safety team, but when Tony bought the brand, that was all he bought. The best thing they did, he ignored. Did he do this for spite, cost cutting or because Brian Barnhart told him they were overrated? Who knows?

I just know that Terry Trammell and the boys with the CART safety team would have not stepped on their crank on national TV like those keystone cops did.

It is stuff like this that makes me worry about the future of Indycar racing, because this is nuts and bolts stuff. If you cannot get this right, what the hell else are you screwing up?

Lets just hope that the safety team has learned their lesson and should they need to put a fire out in Iowa, they respond in the way that they are trained to and not look like the Keystone Cops.

Also, it was interesting to note that the IndyCar statement explaining Simona's crash STILL offered no apology to either Simona herself or the HVM team. Yes, they acknowledged their errors, but surely a personal apology was needed to end this matter. I, for one, would have given IndyCar at least some credit for doing that. Surely, that was the LEAST they owed Simona and her team.

[martini99]

I have been a firefighter for 39 years and yes I have seen things go wrong-- but this was pathetic. During last Sundays race at Iowa the worst reporter on the IRL team Jack Arute did an "up close and personal" segment on the problems encountered by the safety team. He described how the hose that was Connected UNDER the front bumper ( wrong wrong location- just check any piece of fire apparatus and you will find the hose connection easily accessable somewhere above the bumper with a SWIVAL connection-- what if the hose blew ? are you going to crawl under the truck to replace it but maybe IRL dosent even carry a spare lenght of hose)This is known as a "JUMP" hose line (no jump here). So maybe the personal were not the blame but the equipment was. A life was at stake here and this was uncalled for. BRING BACK THE OLD TEAM LED BY BILLY KAMPHOUSEN NOW ! And lets have a drill to test their "IRL's" equipment

[Mark in Oshawa]

Lets just hope that the safety team has learned their lesson and should they need to put a fire out in Iowa, they respond in the way that they are trained to and not look like the Keystone Cops.

Also, it was interesting to note that the IndyCar statement explaining Simona's crash STILL offered no apology to either Simona herself or the HVM team. Yes, they acknowledged their errors, but surely a personal apology was needed to end this matter. I, for one, would have given IndyCar at least some credit for doing that. Surely, that was the LEAST they owed Simona and her team.

Apology? Brian Barnhart apologize? Bite your tongue sir.

They I am sure didn't feel like they handled it right. They are not that stupid, but admitting you did something wrong just is in the MO of corporate America for liability reasons, and I am sure Brian would make a great Fortune 500 CEO when it comes to saying something while saying nothing.

This incident just should prove to Randy Bernard to ask a lot more questions and make some serious changes. The point is being made over and over again, it was done better years ago by the CART boys....

[GRW1983]

Apology? Brian Barnhart apologize? Bite your tongue sir.

They I am sure didn't feel like they handled it right. They are not that stupid, but admitting you did something wrong just is in the MO of corporate America for liability reasons, and I am sure Brian would make a great Fortune 500 CEO when it comes to saying something while saying nothing.

This incident just should prove to Randy Bernard to ask a lot more questions and make some serious changes. The point is being made over and over again, it was done better years ago by the CART boys....

Actually, Barnhart DID apologise to Simona in the driver's briefing at Iowa. Oh well, better late than never!!! :confused:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Actually, Barnhart DID apologise to Simona in the driver's briefing at Iowa. Oh well, better late than never!!! :confused:

Well kudo's for him for that. A bit late, but he got to it. Personally, if I was Brian, she wouldn't have left the track at Texas without it...

[GRW1983]

Well kudo's for him for that. A bit late, but he got to it. Personally, if I was Brian, she wouldn't have left the track at Texas without it...

I couldn't agree more.

[Jag_Warrior]

Well kudo's for him for that. A bit late, but he got to it. Personally, if I was Brian, she wouldn't have left the track at Texas without it...

:up:

He probably waited til Iowa to see whether or not she was going to come back.

Sort of off-topic, but maybe not: why is Brian Barnhart still in racing? Why does the IRL or IMS (whoever signs this goof's check) keep him on the payroll? One has to wonder whether that massive FUBAR at Texas will influence drivers (their teams or sponsors) from other series (specifically NASCAR) to take a pass on doing Indy. If you were the CEO of Lowe's, would you want Jimmie Johnson racing in a series that lets its drivers get roasted while the band plays on?

IMHO, Step 1: fix the problem(s) and correct the safety procedures.
Step 2: fire Brian Barnhart.

[Mark in Oshawa]

A question many have asked.

I have to say, I am not 100% of the belief he always has screwed up everything in the IRL universe. One only has to go back to 1996 and 97 to see the screw ups that the USAC people brought to the table to understand Brian is a step up. It is also a thankless job IMO...but that said, Brian I think had have pictures of Tony in the back room with a goat or something...because I think the evidence is clear: He is not up to the job.....