The Gushing Oil Leak Disaster

[race aficionado]

It's lasted too long and there is no end in sight..

It's surreal as a matter of fact.

The damage being caused as we speak is unlike any other and it's getting worse.

This is ****** up.
:( :mad:

[steve_spackman]

Yes i agree..The destruction of the surrounding wildlife is amazingly sad. Us humans are very good at detroying things, yet very slow to repair.

[Bob Riebe]

Gee, they did not burn off the oil, because the environmental part of Obama's administration said that would pollute the atmosphere.
They did not let the the Governor of Louisiana build his berms because no one had done an environmental study.

Well the burning oil wells in Iraq caused no long term problems, but it seems that the Incompetent finger pointer and chief Obama thinks that the problems that oil will do to the shore and ocean life is less important than a little smoke in the air.

Actually, I got that wrong, Obama does not think, he merely reads tele-promters.

Even liberal taking heads are starting to say Obama has allowed this to become a cluster ****.

[anthonyvop]

I blame the environmental movement.

[rah]

Gee, they did not burn off the oil, because the environmental part of Obama's administration said that would pollute the atmosphere.
They did not let the the Governor of Louisiana build his berms because no one had done an environmental study.

Well the burning oil wells in Iraq caused no long term problems, but it seems that the Incompetent finger pointer and chief Obama thinks that the problems that oil will do to the shore and ocean life is less important than a little smoke in the air.

Actually, I got that wrong, Obama does not think, he merely reads tele-promters.

Even liberal taking heads are starting to say Obama has allowed this to become a cluster ****.

Actually they could not burn it effectively. It is a matter of chemistry, not politics. Even if they did burn it, it would not be a little smoke in the air. When you burn 1.6 million gallons of crude oil (estimate 2nd may) it will do more than just make a little smoke.

[Sonic]

Quite frankly the blame game can wait until the leak (hardly seems to do the disaster justice calling it a "leak") has been plugged. Then the powers that be can point the finger of blame at whomever the hell they please, but right now all effort must go into fixing this mess.

[rah]

I blame the environmental movement.
Well you would wouldn't you.
I blame BP for not putting an emergency cut of valve. Or maybe an acustic switch which would have cost USD$500,000.00 would have worked, but was not put on to save money.

[anthonyvop]

Well you would wouldn't you.
I blame BP for not putting an emergency cut of valve. Or maybe an acustic switch which would have cost USD$500,000.00 would have worked, but was not put on to save money.


You don't know that. Nobody knows what actually happened. Any idea is just a theory.

[Roamy]

I am just astounded oil companies have not developed some kind of vacuum/pump system that would pump this into a separator and reclaim the oil until the leak is repaired.

[Dave B]

I am just astounded oil companies have not developed some kind of vacuum/pump system that would pump this into a separator and reclaim the oil until the leak is repaired.
Does seem odd, doesn't it? The pipe's leaking and we can't stop the leak, so why not at least store the leaking oil somewhere in the meantime? But then what do I know?!

[Bob Riebe]

Well you would wouldn't you.
I blame BP for not putting an emergency cut of valve. Or maybe an acustic switch which would have cost USD$500,000.00 would have worked, but was not put on to save money.BP was given a waiver to not do this by the Obama administration just days before the accident.

[race aficionado]

BP was given a waiver to not do this by the Obama administration just days before the accident.


As our friend Valve would say:

Link please!!!!
:s mokin:

[N. Jones]

BP was lobbying to extend an exemption from doing an environmental impact study 11 days before the accident happened:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/04/AR2010050404118.html

No mention of a cutoff valve in the story.

[Bob Riebe]

As our friend Valve would say:

Link please!!!!
:s mokin:
The decision by the department’s Minerals Management Service (MMS) to give BP’s lease at Deepwater Horizon a “categorical exclusion” from the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) on April 6, 2009 — and BP’s lobbying efforts just 11 days before the explosion to expand those exemptions — show that neither federal regulators nor the company anticipated an accident of the scale of the one unfolding in the gulf. …

The MMS mandates that companies drilling in some areas identify under NEPA what could reduce a project’s environmental impact. But Interior Department spokesman Matt Lee-Ashley said the service grants between 250 and 400 waivers a year for Gulf of Mexico projects. He added that Interior has now established the “first ever” board to examine safety procedures for offshore drilling. It will report back within 30 days on BP’s oil spill and will conduct “a broader review of safety issues,” Lee-Ashley said.

BP’s exploration plan for Lease 206, which calls the prospect of an oil spill “unlikely,” stated that “no mitigation measures other than those required by regulation and BP policy will be employed to avoid, diminish or eliminate potential impacts on environmental resources.”

While the plan included a 13-page environmental impact analysis, it minimized the prospect of any serious damage associated with a spill, saying there would be only “sub-lethal” effects on fish and marine mammals, and “birds could become oiled. However it is unlikely that an accidental oil spill would occur from the proposed activities.”

Kierán Suckling, executive director of the environmental group Center for Biological Diversity, said the federal waiver “put BP entirely in control” of the way it conducted its drilling.

[anthonyvop]

Ok people let us not loose our grip with reality.

This is the first major blowout in US waters since the 1960's

This is the first major blowout at a well this deep.

The environment at 5000 feet is as harsh as it comes. What would work at 150 feet won't work at that depth. The pressure would crush almost anything that isn't specifically built to handle it. Even the guys at NASA haven't come up with any solution.

BP is doing everything it can to stop the leak. It is in their own best interest to do so. To imply anything else is illogical.

[Bob Riebe]

Ok people let us not loose our grip with reality.

This is the first major blowout in US waters since the 1960's

This is the first major blowout at a well this deep.

The environment at 5000 feet is as harsh as it comes. What would work at 150 feet won't work at that depth. The pressure would crush almost anything that isn't specifically built to handle it. Even the guys at NASA haven't come up with any solution.

BP is doing everything it can to stop the leak. It is in their own best interest to do so. To imply anything else is illogical.
The fact a burn-off was not employed immediately, that would greatly have reduced the amount of oil in the water, makes any excuses given, either a damn lie or shows those involved are morons.

Within days after the leak, some "experts" interviewed on the air were wondering why a burn-off was not taking place.

[race aficionado]

Kierán Suckling, executive director of the environmental group Center for Biological Diversity, said the federal waiver “put BP entirely in control” of the way it conducted its drilling.

Thanks Bob.

So this says that BP was 'allowed" to be in control - not that it was being told by the government to not to do the correct thing.

. . . and like Dave says; "What do I know?"

and anthony's previous post does make the point clear that it's in everyones interest to stop the leak.

And yes, a serious investigation - criminal if needed so - should be taking place. This should never happen again.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ok people let us not loose our grip with reality.

This is the first major blowout in US waters since the 1960's

This is the first major blowout at a well this deep.

The environment at 5000 feet is as harsh as it comes. What would work at 150 feet won't work at that depth. The pressure would crush almost anything that isn't specifically built to handle it. Even the guys at NASA haven't come up with any solution.

BP is doing everything it can to stop the leak. It is in their own best interest to do so. To imply anything else is illogical.

You are right and you can say it is illogical they are doing everything THEY can or they KNOW how to do. All I know is a week after the accident, I was wondering where the chorus of media "experts" were not getting on Obama for this mess. He didn't create it, but Bush didn't create Katrina but he took a huge beating for "not caring enough". Personally, I think BP has all but blown their chance to save themselves. They don't have a clue and if they are actively not seeking the help and assistance of other experts from the rest of the oil producers, they should. When it comes to BP, you are quite right Tony to say it is illogical they are not doing everything they can, but I think they are actually doing everything they can as long as they are in control. I am shocked there isn't more being done by the US Army Corp of Engineers and US Navy's submersabiles.

I am also shocked at the amount of red tape and stupidity that has been employed to get in the way of putting up the berms or burning off the oil. On this score, I blame the administration, and I blame them for this stupidity of stopping all off shore oil drilling. This would be like saying you cant build a building out of wood because one burned down. The consequences are high, but as you say, after 50 years plus of drilling this is the first incident, and it is likely clear BP was not a good corporate citizen in how they operated their platforms.

[Roamy]

Where is the freaking vacuum. This is such a simple and effective solution EKI could do it!! WOW this is water > this is oil > drain the filter in the oil tank> WHOALA send it to the refinery.

[anthonyvop]

The fact a burn-off was not employed immediately, that would greatly have reduced the amount of oil in the water, makes any excuses given, either a damn lie or shows those involved are morons.

Within days after the leak, some "experts" interviewed on the air were wondering why a burn-off was not taking place.

Bob,

They did try to burn it off.....it didn't work. Afterward when they wanted to try again the Feds said no.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It is a tough deal to deal with something like this. The problem I have isn't that the problem isn't solved, but the casualness and just matter of fact way the US government has stood by for over a month while BP just keeps grasping at straws....

[anthonyvop]

Where is the freaking vacuum. This is such a simple and effective solution EKI could do it!! WOW this is water > this is oil > drain the filter in the oil tank> WHOALA send it to the refinery.

Ok

And how do they "vacuum" it up?

Remember it is 5000 feet underwater and gushing at thousands of Gallons an minute.

And then how long do you think it would take to design and build what would be a huge, one of a kind piece of machinery?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ok

And how do they "vacuum" it up?

Remember it is 5000 feet underwater and gushing at thousands of Gallons an minute.

And then how long do you think it would take to design and build what would be a huge, one of a kind piece of machinery?


The fact is this isn't an easy situation for anyone. It is a worst case scenario and no one has had to deal in real terms with some like this. People have to separate what is being done from what CAN be done. My only complaint is, as I have stated is the casual nature the feds have dealt with this, and the free pass they are getting. If Giulani was President, I am sure BP was told either fix the problem, or get the hell out of the way, and Giulani would have thrown every bit of kit he had at the problem, because on something like this, solving the problem is priority one, and the hell with politics or the cost.

[Bob Riebe]

Bob,

They did try to burn it off.....it didn't work. Afterward when they wanted to try again the Feds said no.
They did not try until WEEKS after the leak started when they had already started using chemical dispersants.

An oil industry, not for British, said that the burn-should have started the minute the oil hit the surface, when it is most volatile, NOT after it started to thin out.

Now think about that,

[anthonyvop]

They did not try until WEEKS after the leak started when they had already started using chemical dispersants.



The internet is a wonderful thing.


By the CNN Wire Staff
April 28, 2010 11:13 p.m. EDT

"A controlled attempt to burn off part of the spill started Wednesday evening, the U.S. Coast Guard said."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/28/louisiana.oil.rig.fire/index.html

So you see they did try burns shortly after the accident.

[Bob Riebe]

The internet is a wonderful thing.



http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/28/louisiana.oil.rig.fire/index.html

So you see they did try burns shortly after the accident.
I stand corrected it was nine days, not weeks after the rig went to hell, of course it was not a let's get this sucker under control is was the ususal Obama response: "The Coast Guard began burning a portion of the spill Wednesday in an attempt to stop it from reaching sensitive environmental areas and the Louisiana shoreline. The slick was about 16 miles from Venice, La.

The test burn began about 5 p.m. CDT and Landry said it was successful.

Nine days is not shortly, and they were still playing guessing games.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I stand corrected it was nine days, not weeks after the rig went to hell, of course it was not a let's get this sucker under control is was the ususal Obama response: "The Coast Guard began burning a portion of the spill Wednesday in an attempt to stop it from reaching sensitive environmental areas and the Louisiana shoreline. The slick was about 16 miles from Venice, La.

The test burn began about 5 p.m. CDT and Landry said it was successful.

Nine days is not shortly, and they were still playing guessing games.

They appear not to have done much since. Jindal's gov't wanted permission to let the berms to be made to protect the barrier islands and shore and had to wait 3 weeks while the administration dinked around....meanwhile oil is coming ashore...

[chuck34]

(Tin Foil Hat Mode On)
It may be that Obama doesn't want this spill to be cleaned up too quickly. He may be wanting a few days or weeks to go by with oiled up birds, fish, and what-not on the evening news to get the public all riled up at BP in particular, and the oil industry in general. That way he can halt any new well projects and exploration. This way the price of energy "necessarily goes up" just like he said he wanted during the campaign.
(Tin Foil Hat Mode Off)

Now I'm not saying that is what's happening, but "never waste a good crisis" comes to mind.

[Tazio]

Even the guys at NASA haven't come up with any solution.

:p :




VptOUWC-Itc

[racefanfromnj]

well its certainly time we wake up from our oil induced sleep and get away from fossil fuels , or we can just keep sending supertanker sized piles of cash to the middle east. i have no ideas on what hey should do to fix this mess one thing for sure this mess will absolutely be cleaned up by this wonderful planet she will fix any mess we make of it then sweep us off and on to the next life form like we were never here

[anthonyvop]

well its certainly time we wake up from our oil induced sleep and get away from fossil fuels , or we can just keep sending supertanker sized piles of cash to the middle east. i have no ideas on what hey should do to fix this mess one thing for sure this mess will absolutely be cleaned up by this wonderful planet she will fix any mess we make of it then sweep us off and on to the next life form like we were never here


Ahhhh..Jeez...Would you people give it a rest!!!


Right now there is no form of energy as cheap, plentiful, efficient and CLEAN as oil.

[chuck34]

well its certainly time we wake up from our oil induced sleep and get away from fossil fuels , or we can just keep sending supertanker sized piles of cash to the middle east. i have no ideas on what hey should do to fix this mess one thing for sure this mess will absolutely be cleaned up by this wonderful planet she will fix any mess we make of it then sweep us off and on to the next life form like we were never here

Wait a second, I'm confused. Buying oil from BRITISH Petrolium is sending money to the Middle East? Pumping oil out of the Gulf of MEXICO is sending money to the Middle East? We need to get away from fossile fuels (I assume you mean because of all the pollution), but the Earth will find a way to clean itself up, as it always does?

Man you need to stick to one line of thinking, you're all over the map on that one

[Roamy]

Ok

And how do they "vacuum" it up?

Remember it is 5000 feet underwater and gushing at thousands of Gallons an minute.

And then how long do you think it would take to design and build what would be a huge, one of a kind piece of machinery?

it would be incredibly easy. Oil floats and you can just pick it up off the top.
It is actually frightful we can't implement such a simple solution in short order.

[Roamy]

also VOP while I am thinking of it. They have large centrafuge pumps whereby the oil and water would separate quite easily. used quite a bit for gold mining.

[Mark in Oshawa]

well its certainly time we wake up from our oil induced sleep and get away from fossil fuels , or we can just keep sending supertanker sized piles of cash to the middle east. i have no ideas on what hey should do to fix this mess one thing for sure this mess will absolutely be cleaned up by this wonderful planet she will fix any mess we make of it then sweep us off and on to the next life form like we were never here

Guess you better stop being a race fan. Racing is bad for the enviroment if you havent noticed. What is more, you should take up a writing course, and learn a little grammar and punctuation in the process. I had to read your screed about 3 times to figure out what you were after.

It would also do you some good to read where your oil in America comes from. News flash, it isn't the Middle East. I know this is tough for you to handle, and I hate to break it to you this way, but Europe and Asia get most of their oil from the Middle East. American oil partners make money on selling that oil after extraction and the money actually flows INTO the US from the Middle East. Bigger news flash, most of your imported oil comes from Canada. I know you cant begin to understand all that, but before you go off on some sort of anti-big oil rant, understand that the politics of oil is not the easy talking points some blow hard poltician has lead you to believe.

The fact is, cleaning this mess up is going to take BP AND the Gov't agencies working together, and lot of untried technology (untried on a disaster of this scale). It is the first disaster of this type in US offshore drilling history. To stop offshore drilling now would be like banning building houses from wood after the first one caught fire.

The fact is oil is still the most efficient way to meet most transportation needs, and will be for the forseeable future. If there was a better way, you can bet one of the automakers would have it on the market.....because the demand is THERE...

[anthonyvop]

it would be incredibly easy. Oil floats and you can just pick it up off the top.
It is actually frightful we can't implement such a simple solution in short order.

Have you any grasp of the size and scope of the spill. It is coming out under incredible pressure from over 5000 feet below the surface.

We aren't talking about a drop of olive oil in a glass of water. Just the varying currents below the surface is moving it all over. It is appearing on the surface at various locations in long strings.

Not to mention surface tension would preclude it being sucked up by one single vacuum. It would literally take 100's and even that probably wouldn't do much.

The way to combat it is 3 pronged.
A. Stop the leak. That is the most important.
B. Protect the shorelines with booms, berms and absorbents.
C. Use Chemical and biological dispersant and allow the the oil to be consumed by microbes and evaporate

[Roamy]

well I would agree however there are some pretty big and powerful pumps I mean to tell you. But they do need to get the lid on

[schmenke]

A burn-off is impractical because:
A) The vast area of the slick makes it difficult to control,
B) It would continue to burn until the leak at the sea-bottom is contained.
C) The unpredictable direction of the spread would make it a hazard to both marine life and shipping.

A similar spill occured back in the late nineties(?) off the gulf of Arabia. The solution then was to send in a couple of emptied crude oil tankers to vacuum up the spill. This isn't being done now because of the lost revenues that would be incurred for the tanker-owners :mark:

[schmenke]

also VOP while I am thinking of it. They have large centrafuge pumps whereby the oil and water would separate quite easily. used quite a bit for gold mining.

This process works fine for separating solid particulates from water, but it's not as easy for emulsions. It’s a very energy-intensive process and would have to take place off shore.

[schmenke]

...Right now there is no form of energy as cheap, plentiful, efficient and CLEAN as oil.

Nuclear, but its cleanliness is debatable.

Fact is that fossil fuels supply ~95% of today's world energy needs.

[schmenke]

...most of your imported oil comes from Canada. ...

Yes, but U.S. imports from all OPEC nations combined far exceeds those of Canada.

[Hondo]

These people that want to boycott BP products strike me as short sighted idiots. Someone is going to have to pay for cleaning up the mess. It's going to be us. The choices are, bankrupt BP through a boycott and have the government tax us more to clean it up, or, continue to purchase BP products and have BP pay for it out of their profits. Like I said, either way you're gonna pay but at least with BP you get a tank of gas out of the deal. With the government you'll get nothing except the bill to pay for all of them to fly around looking at oil.

[555-04Q2]

If people really gave a cr@p about the environmental, they would ditch their cars and walk, thus not giving companies like BP a chance to cause environmental "disasters". People, like me, who drive cars, fly in planes, ride the bus etc have no right to complain about oil spills etc.

[Hondo]

If people really gave a cr@p about the environmental, they would ditch their cars and walk, thus not giving companies like BP a chance to cause environmental "disasters". People, like me, who drive cars, fly in planes, ride the bus etc have no right to complain about oil spills etc.

Ha! vehicle fuel is merely the tip of the iceberg. If you could stop the use of oil completely immediately, probably 2/3 rds of the world's population would be dead within a year. The very ones calling for the end of oil would probably be amongst the first to go. Petroleum is used as fuel for shipping, air transport, and agricultural equipment. Petroleum is used as a lubricant, used in most modern plastics, synthetic fabrics, various polymars and numerous chemical processes that produce modern materials.

I'm all for developing realistic alternative energy sources but right now oil provides a lot of bang for the buck. Imagine the effect on food production if you eliminate oil. We can also go back to sailing ships and hunting whales to use their oil for lubricants. It took chemists a long, long time to develop lubricants that worked as well as sperm whale oil.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes, but U.S. imports from all OPEC nations combined far exceeds those of Canada.

OPEC isn't just the Middle East. It is Venezuela....and that would be with Mexico the two other major nations of imported oil to the US.

Supertankers leaving the Persian Gulf are more likely to go to Europe and Asia than cross the Atlantic. That is just the reality of it. Why ship oil from the Middle East AROUND Africa if they can pipe it south from Alberta or a short jaunt by tanker up from Venezuela?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Nuclear, but its cleanliness is debatable.

Fact is that fossil fuels supply ~95% of today's world energy needs.

Cleanliness isn't debatable it all. It IS CLEAN and it works. 80% of France's electricity comes from Nukes. It isn't as CHEAP as oil or gas and that is the fly in the ointment. With proper safety procedures and fail safes it is safer than oil and gas. You can put Chernobyl down to stupidity by the operators in a nation with no accountability (the USSR didn't worry about public oversight or safety standards) and 3 Mile Island was actually much ado about what "might have been". Those are the only two nuclear accidents of note in the age of nuclear power. How many people die in refinery accidents? How much damage to the envionment has the oil spill in the Gulf Caused?

No, for electricity, nuclear power may be our best option now that we have run out of good sites for hydro power. Tidal power is an option in some areas, and that should be explored, but wind and solar are not there yet and really cost as much if not more per kw/h than nukes.

I live with 15 miles of 2 plants producing almost half of Ontario's power, and I can sleep at night knowing that it is safe nuclear power. It just isn't always cheap...lol.

That said, for cars, oil, and its byproduct gasoline is going to be the way things are done for a while....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ha! vehicle fuel is merely the tip of the iceberg. If you could stop the use of oil completely immediately, probably 2/3 rds of the world's population would be dead within a year. The very ones calling for the end of oil would probably be amongst the first to go. Petroleum is used as fuel for shipping, air transport, and agricultural equipment. Petroleum is used as a lubricant, used in most modern plastics, synthetic fabrics, various polymars and numerous chemical processes that produce modern materials.

I'm all for developing realistic alternative energy sources but right now oil provides a lot of bang for the buck. Imagine the effect on food production if you eliminate oil. We can also go back to sailing ships and hunting whales to use their oil for lubricants. It took chemists a long, long time to develop lubricants that worked as well as sperm whale oil.

Don't let logic and reality get in the way of a good rant against "big oil".....

I wish we could avoid disasters like this in the Gulf. I think the science of drilling in the deep of the ocean floor needs to be rexaimined and rethought before any new platforms are authorized.

Ironically, because no platforms were allowed within sight of land in the Gulf, one could argue that the reason BP is way the heck offshore is because of the enviromentalists and NIMBY types and if they were drilling in the much easier to work with shallow waters off shore, the oil would be stopped.

[anthonyvop]

Ironically, because no platforms were allowed within sight of land in the Gulf, one could argue that the reason BP is way the heck offshore is because of the enviromentalists and NIMBY types and if they were drilling in the much easier to work with shallow waters off shore, the oil would be stopped.

We have a Winner!

[Mark in Oshawa]

We have a Winner!

Still doesn't excuse BP or any other oil company working off shore if something happens. They came to government and said this would NEVER happen. For 50 years, they pretty much were right. But boy...one time, and look what happens....

This whole mess just shows you how complicated this can be. In theory, the "Experts" all said this couldn't happen. They didn't have the contingency plan to stop it. Government never really questioned it, and in many cases, forced them way off shore in the deep water rather than allowing them to slant drill into the oil pockets from shallow waters in shore. That said, it is more proof positive of "$hit happens".....

BP is going to lose a lot in this, the US Government looks feckless and that is nothing compared to the enviromental damage and the loss of fisheries in Louisana and along the Gulf Coast. This is a catastrophie that is much more insidious and longer lasting than the cleanup snafu's with Katrina. How Obama handles this will define his presidency..and so far, he looks just like a spectator.....pointing fingers.

[AAReagles]

... Ironically, because no platforms were allowed within sight of land in the Gulf, one could argue that the reason BP is way the heck offshore is because of the enviromentalists and NIMBY types and if they were drilling in the much easier to work with shallow waters off shore, the oil would be stopped.

Ironic indeed. This sort of thing will crop up from time to time, as long as there is a vast need for oil to supply increasing population and manufacturing, ambition combined with greed, and unacceptable demands placed on department heads and their workers.

Hopefully this will be a learning experience, calling for stricter guidelines, like it was off the coast of Santa Barbara in the 1960's.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ironic indeed. This sort of thing will crop up from time to time, as long as there is a vast need for oil to supply increasing population and manufacturing, ambition combined with greed, and unacceptable demands placed on department heads and their workers.

Hopefully this will be a learning experience, calling for stricter guidelines, like it was off the coast of Santa Barbara in the 1960's.

It has everything to do with the rich guys in Malibu wanting to look out and not see an oil platform as much as anything else. I cant blame them I suppose, but oil rigs in deep water when slant drilling from more logical depths may have help if there is an issue.

Oil is a pain in the @ss. No two ways about it. That said, until some boffin somewhere figures out a way to make hydrogen or fusion technology work, we are stuck with the oil economy....and no amount of handwringing and good wishes will change THAT.

[Bob Riebe]

A burn-off is impractical because:
A) The vast area of the slick makes it difficult to control,
B) It would continue to burn until the leak at the sea-bottom is contained.
C) The unpredictable direction of the spread would make it a hazard to both marine life and shipping.



A: paranoid bs, it has been done before, working well.

B: So what?

C: Shipping, what they cruise around with their heads in bags?
What happened now is better-- get real.

[dunes]

I have no comment on this.
BULL
The problum is all my comments WOULD get me sensored.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think this mess isn't going to be an easy Fix. I read on a Facebook thread that people think BP should just whistle up a bunch of tankers to suck up all the oil. Which proves two things:

One, they have no idea of the math in how many barrels are out there even after the first 3 days, and two, I guess they figure BP could just phone "tankers r us" and they would be on site in about 2 days.

The amount of oil in the Gulf is SO vast, and was just after a few days, that there is likely about 20 or 30 tankers of oil out there easily and to try to suck up all that up and not also suck a whack of seawater would be impossible. There isn't enough tankers in the world....

[Hondo]

Can you imagine what will happen to fuel supplies and prices world wide once some idiot tries to divert even a small portion of the world's tanker fleet to act as stand-by waste oil storage receipients? In addition, any abrasive trash in the vacuumed oil will act as liquid sandpaper on pump seals and impellers. Fliter replacement will be a full time job. The tankers would probably have more maintainence down time than operational time.

[Easy Drifter]

There is one extremely dangerous possible solution that quite likely is technically impossible. That is a controlled explosion to seal the pipe. The depth and pressure of the water quite possibly would stop that method from working and could even create and larger hole for the oil to escape from.
That is a very tricky procedure even on land.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Can you imagine what will happen to fuel supplies and prices world wide once some idiot tries to divert even a small portion of the world's tanker fleet to act as stand-by waste oil storage receipients? In addition, any abrasive trash in the vacuumed oil will act as liquid sandpaper on pump seals and impellers. Fliter replacement will be a full time job. The tankers would probably have more maintainence down time than operational time.

There you go having knowledge of the oil business. See, all those talk show hosts and people who have all the answers don't like guys like you.

BTW..what the FRACK flag are you flying now????

[Mark in Oshawa]

There is one extremely dangerous possible solution that quite likely is technically impossible. That is a controlled explosion to seal the pipe. The depth and pressure of the water quite possibly would stop that method from working and could even create and larger hole for the oil to escape from.
That is a very tricky procedure even on land.

Apparnetly the Russians let a suitcase style nuke go on a well head once to stop a leak....

5 bucks says if Obama wasn't in the White House, the option would still be on the table..I am just sayin......

[Hondo]

BTW..what the FRACK flag are you flying now????

I woke up one morning and found my once strong, prosperous country now ruled, not by the people, but by an unqualified, incompetent black man that by design and intent or inability is systematically destroying everything that made this country prosperous and strong. Once he gets his next Supreme Court appointment completed, he will continue to try to create situations of such civil unrest that he will be able to declare Martial Law with the complete backing of the Supreme Court. There will be no presidential election in 2012.

In recognition of my new status as a 5th world African nation, I fly the flag of my sister country, Zimbabwe.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I woke up one morning and found my once strong, prosperous country now ruled, not by the people, but by an unqualified, incompetent black man that by design and intent or inability is systematically destroying everything that made this country prosperous and strong. Once he gets his next Supreme Court appointment completed, he will continue to try to create situations of such civil unrest that he will be able to declare Martial Law with the complete backing of the Supreme Court. There will be no presidential election in 2012.

In recognition of my new status as a 5th world African nation, I fly the flag of my sister country, Zimbabwe.

Fiero...I am gob smacked...and it is a brilliant theory....and for that, I salute you..lol You know, you can move up here. Canada is inching towards the right every day...librealism here has ran its course...and it starting to erode...

[Tazio]

I woke up one morning and found my once strong, prosperous country now ruled, not by the people, but by an unqualified, incompetent black man that by design and intent or inability is systematically destroying everything that made this country prosperous and strong. Once he gets his next Supreme Court appointment completed, he will continue to try to create situations of such civil unrest that he will be able to declare Martial Law with the complete backing of the Supreme Court. There will be no presidential election in 2012.

In recognition of my new status as a 5th world African nation, I fly the flag of my sister country, Zimbabwe.

"'I'm gwine ter larn you how ter talk ter 'spectubble folks ef hit's de las' ack,' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee. 'Ef you don't take off dat hat en tell me howdy, I'm gwine ter bus' you wide open,' sezee.

"Tar-Baby stay still, en Brer Fox, he lay low

Uncle Remus 1881 :p :

[Bob Riebe]

Can you imagine what will happen to fuel supplies and prices world wide once some idiot tries to divert even a small portion of the world's tanker fleet to act as stand-by waste oil storage receipients? In addition, any abrasive trash in the vacuumed oil will act as liquid sandpaper on pump seals and impellers. Fliter replacement will be a full time job. The tankers would probably have more maintainence down time than operational time.
Sadly, I think it has been retired but the worlds largest ship,or it was, was a tanker too big for all but a few special ports could be sailed there and suck up a huge mount of the oil slurry.

Although it would do not good for the slurry now too close to shore.

[Bob Riebe]

Apparnetly the Russians let a suitcase style nuke go on a well head once to stop a leak....

5 bucks says if Obama wasn't in the White House, the option would still be on the table..I am just sayin......

Absolutely correct.

[Bob Riebe]

I woke up one morning and found my once strong, prosperous country now ruled, not by the people, but by an unqualified, incompetent-- HALF --black man that by design and intent or inability is systematically destroying everything that made this country prosperous and strong.``

[Jag_Warrior]

I woke up one morning and found my once strong, prosperous country now ruled, not by the people, but by an unqualified, incompetent black man that by design and intent or inability is systematically destroying everything that made this country prosperous and strong. Once he gets his next Supreme Court appointment completed, he will continue to try to create situations of such civil unrest that he will be able to declare Martial Law with the complete backing of the Supreme Court. There will be no presidential election in 2012.

In recognition of my new status as a 5th world African nation, I fly the flag of my sister country, Zimbabwe.

I've noticed that you're not around here as much as you used to be. Hanging out with your "brothers" over at Storm Front, are ya? :dozey:

This I say, not with cruelty or malice... but the sooner you move to Canada, Zimbabwe (you race baiting wingnuts have a particular obsession with Rhodesia/Zimbabwe I have noticed) or maybe Argentina, the better off this nation will be. What you don't seem to get is, this nation became great not because of people like you, but in spite of people like you. Since Obama's election, you whining rabble have been announcing the death of America nonstop. A broken Britney Spears record would be less torturous to the ear. Imagine if any portion of our population had been hampered by your cowardly kind during the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812 or WWII. We'd either be speaking with distinctly British accents or we'd have (happily) mastered German by now.

As my grandfather often said, "the same heat that melts butter tempers steel." The wingnut, paranoid schizophrenic radical right is populated by people who seem to be not just covered in butter, but also made of it... 100%. Apply heat and watch them melt. I'm sorry that you are paranoid, delusional, weak and scared. So just stay out of the way. Pretend that there is a census worker at your door and hide under the bed. Those of us who don't imagine monsters or run when we hear a bump in the night will shoulder the burden and right the ship... just as we've always had to do. *sigh* The burden is getting heavier though. Time to drop some dead weight, IMO; (one way) flights to Zimbabwe are pretty cheap, or so I hear. Check with your Storm Front buds... they could probably tell you where the best (cheap) hiding places are. :wave:

[Jag_Warrior]

Apparnetly the Russians let a suitcase style nuke go on a well head once to stop a leak....

5 bucks says if Obama wasn't in the White House, the option would still be on the table..I am just sayin......


And you know this option is off the table how???

Christian Science Monitor:

President Obama has stepped in and has sent a team of nuclear experts to contain the spill. The man in charge to contain the spill is Steven Chu, U.S. Energy Secretary and also the one who helped develop the first hydrogen bomb in the 50s. The five member multidisciplinary team are a creative lot involved in the first hydrogen bomb, finding ways to mine in Mars and ways to position biomedical needles. The team will work along with BP’s scientist to find a solution. Meeting at BP’s crisis centre in Houston, Chief Executive Officer Tony Hayward said after the meeting, ‘lots of nuclear physicists and all sorts of people coming up with some quite good ideas actually.’

Considering the risks (for one, the spread of radioactive material that takes a tad longer to break down than an oil slick), hopefully we would more carefully consider this option than the people who brought us Chernobyl.

[Bob Riebe]

Considering the risks (for one, the spread of radioactive material that takes a tad longer to break down than an oil slick), hopefully we would more carefully consider this option than the people who brought us Chernobyl.

What material is going rise five thousand some feet to the surface, and remain there?

This is a suit-case size bomb, not a fusion weapon.

[Daniel]

What material is going rise five thousand some feet to the surface, and remain there?

This is a suit-case size bomb, not a fusion weapon.
You really are one of those "How hard could it be?" people aren't you :rotflmao:

[anthonyvop]

And you know this option is off the table how???

Christian Science Monitor:

"The man in charge to contain the spill is Steven Chu, U.S. Energy Secretary and also the one who helped develop the first hydrogen bomb in the 50s."




WoW! That is quite the feat developing the Hydrogen Bomb in the 50s considering he was born in 1948!!!

Sloppy reporting.

[markabilly]

What material is going rise five thousand some feet to the surface, and remain there?

This is a suit-case size bomb, not a fusion weapon.
sounds good to me....

and the next time some tanker starts leaking oil....KA BAMMM

next time some illegals start to cross the border KA BAMM

Next time Eki quits creaming his tacos...and starts typing on this forum...KA BAMM

No doubt the world will be a brighter and better place, glowing in the dark

[Jag_Warrior]

What material is going rise five thousand some feet to the surface, and remain there?

According to one of the panel members on Bloomberg the other day (a Physics PhD), the same oil particles that are rising to the surface now would rise to the surface then too... only they'd be radioactive. And that has apparently been one of the major concerns.



This is a suit-case size bomb, not a fusion weapon.

It's been a long time since I took physics (and that was only in high school), but as I was taught, the detonation of any nuclear weapon is accompanied by a blast of neutron radiation. Whether the reaction is by fusion or by fission does not change that fact.

As I've just read, this option has indeed been taken off the table. With BP's now (limited) success in using the cap, risking an undersea nuclear explosion has been decided against.

Something else that was mentioned by the panel on Bloomberg was that while the main source might be sealed (or "glassified" as the one gentleman put it), there is no guarantee that additional fissures wouldn't be opened up by the explosion. So instead of one source, you might end up with 50, or whatever. So apart from the radiation risk, we just don't know how well (if at all) this glassification affect would hold, or if it would collapse/implode because of the pressures at that depth.

What I find most troubling about this is that people (and not just here) are just making wild ass guesses about what to do. There obviously was no contingency plan in place, whether by the government regulators or by the oil companies. So now people are willing to throw noodles at the wall to see what sticks.

I think this nuclear suggestion, along with all other somewhat viable options should have been explored... and from what I've read thus far, they were. But if anyone knew THE answer, we wouldn't still be discussing this. As a matter of fact, if a proper Failure Modes Effects Analysis had been performed by BP (and followed), this wouldn't have gotten as bad as it has to begin with.

[Daniel]

According to one of the panel members on Bloomberg the other day (a Physics PhD), the same oil particles that are rising to the surface now would rise to the surface then too... only they'd be radioactive. And that has apparently been one of the major concerns.




It's been a long time since I took physics (and that was only in high school), but as I was taught, the detonation of any nuclear weapon is accompanied by a blast of neutron radiation. Whether the reaction is by fusion or by fission does not change that fact.

As I've just read, this option has indeed been taken off the table. With BP's now (limited) success in using the cap, risking an undersea nuclear explosion has been decided against.

Something else that was mentioned by the panel on Bloomberg was that while the main source might be sealed (or "glassified" as the one gentleman put it), there is no guarantee that additional fissures wouldn't be opened up by the explosion. So instead of one source, you might end up with 50, or whatever. So apart from the radiation risk, we just don't know how well (if at all) this glassification affect would hold, or if it would collapse/implode because of the pressures at that depth.

What I find most troubling about this is that people (and not just here) are just making wild ass guesses about what to do. There obviously was no contingency plan in place, whether by the government regulators or by the oil companies. So now people are willing to throw noodles at the wall to see what sticks.

I think this nuclear suggestion, along with all other somewhat viable options should have been explored... and from what I've read thus far, they were. But if anyone knew THE answer, we wouldn't still be discussing this. As a matter of fact, if a proper Failure Modes Effects Analysis had been performed by BP (and followed), this wouldn't have gotten as bad as it has to begin with.
Pussy.

Let's just nuke everything we have a problem with. Got a dodgy lock on your car door? NUKE IT!

Child not behaving itself? NUKE IT!

People in another country are Muslims? NUKE EM!!!!

That's twice in as many weeks I've agreed with Markabilly.... weird.

[Jag_Warrior]

You really are one of those "How hard could it be?" people aren't you :rotflmao:

The best part is when someone says we should try it because the Russians said we should. I mean, they're our "friends", so it's not like we'd have to worry about them ever steering us wrong, huh?

That kind of reminds me of an old joke. This guy is walking through a park. He happens upon this guy reading a book and he wants to ask the guy what book he's reading. But there's this big, vicious looking dog sitting near the guy. So before he gets too close, he asks the guy, "does your dog bite?" The guy says, "no" and keeps reading. So the first guy starts walking toward him, when all of a sudden the dog launches an attack like the world has never seen. Bit him up, down and sideways. Arms, legs, face, butt... all over. Finally the dog gets tired and walks away. The bitten, bloody guy looks up at the other guy (who is still reading his book) and says, "I thought you said your dog didn't bite?!" The guy with the book says, "My dog doesn't bite. But that's not my dog." - and goes back to his book. :dozey:

The fact that the Russians wanted to see us try the Wile E. Coyote option would be my first clue to think twice about it. I still think it was worth exploring, but come on now... the Russians??? :rotflmao:
http://www.mysupergenius.com/wp-content/themes/thesis/rotator/Wile%20E%20Coyote%20-%20Super%20Genius.jpg

[Daniel]

The best part is when someone says we should try it because the Russians said we should. I mean, they're our "friends", so it's not like we'd have to worry about them ever steering us wrong, huh?

That kind of reminds me of an old joke. This guy is walking through a park. He happens upon this guy reading a book and he wants to ask the guy what book he's reading. But there's this big, vicious looking dog sitting near the guy. So before he gets too close, he asks the guy, "does your dog bite?" The guy says, "no" and keeps reading. So the first guy starts walking toward him, when all of a sudden the dog launches an attack like the world has never seen. Bit him up, down and sideways. Arms, legs, face, butt... all over. Finally the dog gets tired and walks away. The bitten, bloody guy looks up at the other guy (who is still reading his book) and says, "I thought you said your dog didn't bite?!" The guy with the book says, "My dog doesn't bite. But that's not my dog." - and goes back to his book. :dozey:

The fact that the Russians wanted to see us try the Wile E. Coyote option would be my first clue to think twice about it. I still think it was worth exploring, but come on now... the Russians??? :rotflmao:
http://www.mysupergenius.com/wp-content/themes/thesis/rotator/Wile%20E%20Coyote%20-%20Super%20Genius.jpg
Amen brother :D

[Jag_Warrior]

Pussy.

Let's just nuke everything we have a problem with. Got a dodgy lock on your car door? NUKE IT!

Child not behaving itself? NUKE IT!

People in another country are Muslims? NUKE EM!!!!

That's twice in as many weeks I've agreed with Markabilly.... weird.

I'm gonna see if I can get me one of them thar nukes at the next gunshow. Now that sounds like one true multi-purpose item to keep around the house.

[Daniel]

I'm gonna see if I can get me one of them thar nukes at the next gunshow. Now that sounds like one true multi-purpose item to keep around the house.
Amen to that too!

Did you know that every day, Mexican gays sneak into the country and unplug brain-dead ladies? SERIOUSLY!!!!!!

[markabilly]

Amen to that too!

Did you know that every day, Mexican gays sneak into the country and unplug brain-dead ladies? SERIOUSLY!!!!!!

I was wondering where all those ladies driving down the road, getting in my way, have been coming from..SERIOUSLY

looks like i am gonna need a whole bunch of them suitcases....

[Jag_Warrior]

Amen to that too!

Did you know that every day, Mexican gays sneak into the country and unplug brain-dead ladies? SERIOUSLY!!!!!!

That's all uh happenin' cause we got that black devil as President, doncha know. I'm buyin' my ticket to Zimbabwe before he sends his Black Panther shock troops to put me in a concentration camp. Them dang census workers were just a gatherin' intelligence on where we all lived. They could be comin' for us tonight! But they'll never take me alive, I tell ya!!!

You did know that Obama is the second coming of the Anti Christ, didn't ya? True! I read that on one of those right wing(nut) websites a few months back. John F. Kennedy was the first. When Kennedy got his brains blown out, the Anti Christ jumped out of him into that dang communist, socialist, Nazi, fascist African that we got as our President! He didn't even win the election. Nah, he had all them illegal alien gay Mexicans stuffin' the ballot box! I bet he planned that oil spill to trap us in here. We could have escaped by row boat. Now we is trapped, man!!! :eek:

[Bob Riebe]

You really are one of those "How hard could it be?" people aren't you :rotflmao: Unless you are simply magnifying your ignorance, give me actual proof it is not better than destroying the shore-line and how a tiny bomb a mile under water will cause great harm.

You must be one of those twits who believe nukes of any sort will create a world full of mutants.
Fine if you live in a nerd sci-fi world but not related to reality.

It seem Russian paranoia exists here along side Jew hatred.
Brilliant.

[Bob Riebe]

The best part is when someone says we should try it because the Russians said we should. I mean, they're our "friends", so it's not like we'd have to worry about them ever steering us wrong, huh?

That kind of reminds me of an old joke. This guy is walking through a park. He happens upon this guy reading a book and he wants to ask the guy what book he's reading. But there's this big, vicious looking dog sitting near the guy. So before he gets too close, he asks the guy, "does your dog bite?" The guy says, "no" and keeps reading. So the first guy starts walking toward him, when all of a sudden the dog launches an attack like the world has never seen. Bit him up, down and sideways. Arms, legs, face, butt... all over. Finally the dog gets tired and walks away. The bitten, bloody guy looks up at the other guy (who is still reading his book) and says, "I thought you said your dog didn't bite?!" The guy with the book says, "My dog doesn't bite. But that's not my dog." - and goes back to his book. :dozey:

The fact that the Russians wanted to see us try the Wile E. Coyote option would be my first clue to think twice about it. I still think it was worth exploring, but come on now... the Russians??? :rotflmao:

Your analogy and rhetoric, has taken you down to the level of Eki obtuse foolishness.
I know you are better than that.

[Bob Riebe]

sounds good to me....

and the next time some tanker starts leaking oil....KA BAMMM

next time some illegals start to cross the border KA BAMM

Next time Eki quits creaming his tacos...and starts typing on this forum...KA BAMM

No doubt the world will be a brighter and better place, glowing in the dark
Are you sure you and Eki are not the same person.
This post makes you two sound an all lot alike.

[Bob Riebe]

The Obama administration said "never let a serious crisis go to waste", well the cheap Chicago politics organizer is now going full blast, using this oil leak to try to ram his eco-political energy sh-t down our throats.

It is a good thing he is of mixed blood, because when this turd finally floats to the surface and is exposed for the cheap huckster he is; the Negro population of the U.S. can say-- he's half white, not one of ours.

[Tazio]

the Negro population of the U.S. can say-- he's half white, not one of ours.


en Brer Fox, he lay low :s mokin:

[555-04Q2]

Ha! vehicle fuel is merely the tip of the iceberg. If you could stop the use of oil completely immediately, probably 2/3 rds of the world's population would be dead within a year. The very ones calling for the end of oil would probably be amongst the first to go. Petroleum is used as fuel for shipping, air transport, and agricultural equipment. Petroleum is used as a lubricant, used in most modern plastics, synthetic fabrics, various polymars and numerous chemical processes that produce modern materials.

I'm all for developing realistic alternative energy sources but right now oil provides a lot of bang for the buck. Imagine the effect on food production if you eliminate oil. We can also go back to sailing ships and hunting whales to use their oil for lubricants. It took chemists a long, long time to develop lubricants that worked as well as sperm whale oil.

Like I said, until people are preparted to give up the use of fossils fuels, there is no use in crying over spilt milk. There are going to be accidents and environmental "distasters" such as the one we are seeing now.

I am pro the use of fossils fuels, not against it. But there are many other ways of powering our world effectively without kiling 2/3's of the world, the oil companies in partnership with governments keep us reliant on fossil fuels through shaddy deals and have traditionally sqaushed or discredited new designs that could promote alternative energy sources.

[Jag_Warrior]

Your analogy and rhetoric, has taken you down to the level of Eki obtuse foolishness.
I know you are better than that.

Obtuse? Really? :D So says the man who apparently had no idea that a nuclear blast (of ANY type) released neutron radiation and would certainly produce some level of contamination, which when carried by oil particles, would likely rise to the surface. How much, I do not know. And based on your Wile E. Coyote/"damn the torpedoes!" style posts in this thread, I believe it's safe to say that you have no idea either. Not that that would stop you from claiming to know. :rolleyes:

As I've already said, I'm not a physicist (and I seriously doubt that you are either)... I don't play one on TV and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. So I've watched and listened to panel discussions involving (true) experts, read ideas on both sides (something that I'm sure you'd have a difficult time doing)... and I've reached no definitive conclusion. It's simply not a subject that I know enough about. But I would say that when it comes to nuclear devices, it probably is best to err on the side of caution, especially since some success is now being found with a less "explosive" solution.

As for knowing me, Bob... let's not play silly games here. You don't know me at all - and I'm really not making any attempt to get to know you either (when have I ever?). Why? Well, I've seen your pretzel logic posts on this forum for years. Typically I just laugh and skip over whatever illogical point you're trying to make. Like a dog hanging onto its final bone, it has seemed that you'd argue that 2+2=5 if someone would allow you to keep going. But if you think that you really have enough wit and spunk to play The Dozens with me, by all means... give it your best shot, old stick. Hell, I've enjoyed that since I was about 5. Pick a topic related to economics or business and we can really have some fun. You strike me as the sort of "wise" fellow who could explain supply side economics to me, or what role derivatives played in the financial crisis last year. I mean, heck, you seem to have capping oil wells down pat... along with how to set off a nuclear weapon and save the Gulf of Mexico. Those other things should be easy pickings for a fellow with your worldly experience and vast knowledge.

Hey... you liked my lil joke so well, here's something else for you to chew on. I think it's Persian, but it was told to me by my grandfather many years ago:

"He that knows not, and knows not that he knows not is a fool. Shun him

He that knows not, and knows that he knows not is a pupil. Teach him.

He that knows, and knows not that he knows is asleep. Wake him.

He that knows, and knows that he knows is a teacher. Follow him."

On this particular topic, I freely admit that I am a pupil. I know not, and I know that I know not. But you, well... let's just say that I wouldn't follow you to the grocery store, I doubt that you could teach me anything and I don't think you're asleep. So what does that leave us with? ;)

You have a good evening. :wave:

[Daniel]

Unless you are simply magnifying your ignorance, give me actual proof it is not better than destroying the shore-line and how a tiny bomb a mile under water will cause great harm.

You must be one of those twits who believe nukes of any sort will create a world full of mutants.
Fine if you live in a nerd sci-fi world but not related to reality.

It seem Russian paranoia exists here along side Jew hatred.
Brilliant.

ROFL. It doesn't work like that, you have to prove that your method works before trying it....

[markabilly]

It is a good thing he is of mixed blood, because when this turd finally floats to the surface and is exposed for the cheap huckster he is; the Negro population of the U.S. can say-- he's half white, not one of ours.

????????





Did you know that every day, Mexican gays sneak into the country and unplug brain-dead ladies? SERIOUSLY!!!!!!

someone needs to get bob plugged back in........ :D

[markabilly]

feiro too, but he is probably too far gone for that to help

[Dave B]

Have I accidently wandered into some freakish nightmare episode of 24? :s

[Daniel]

No, something more akin to the episode of the Simpsons where Homer gets a gun and uses it to turn lights off, change channels on the tv and open cans of beer.

[Bob Riebe]

Obtuse? Really? :D So says the man who apparently had no idea that a nuclear blast (of ANY type) released neutron radiation and would certainly produce some level of contamination, which when carried by oil particles, would likely rise to the surface

OH touchy are we not; taking a thread on a serious subject down to grade school blather is usually the mode of twits who cannot defend their rhetoric.

If you prefer to be regarded in that manner, so be it, you are.

Remember the chunks of ocean property and water that was blasted to smithereens?
Well the land parts are still contaminated though wild-life lives there but gee, I do not remember the liquid parts causing mass destruction, and as these fission bombs are fire-crackers compared to the fusion bombs, sounds lke a Chicken-Little scenario to me.

Have a nice day.

[Bob Riebe]

ROFL. It doesn't work like that, you have to prove that your method works before trying it....
What does not work like that?

[Bob Riebe]

????????




someone needs to get bob plugged back in........ :D
Now, now Marka-eki, that is not nice.

You know what they said on The Prisoner "by hook or by crook".

[Bob Riebe]

:s mokin:
They are of the Negro race gomer, look it up, before you take you afternoon nap.

[anthonyvop]

Actually all one has to do is look a Bikini Atoll. Used for several Large Nuke tests the waters are totally clear of radiation and support a thriving reef system.

You can even go on dive trips there.

http://www.cdnn.info/news/article/a970330.html

[Daniel]

Actually all one has to do is look a Bikini Atoll. Used for several Large Nuke tests the waters are totally clear of radiation and support a thriving reef system.

You can even go on dive trips there.

http://www.cdnn.info/news/article/a970330.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nuclear_tests_at_Maralinga

[Jag_Warrior]

taking a thread on a serious subject down to grade school blather is usually the mode of twits who cannot defend their rhetoric.

Yes, Bob, I fully agree with that statement. Take it to heart, why don't you? The sad things is, as you typed that statement, it remains that you know not, and you know not that you know not.

I've agreed and disagreed with people like Daniel, Rollo, Mark in Oshawa, Chuck34, Eki and great many others here... often times an agreement and a disagreement on the same day. But unlike you, they are not ones (at least in my experience) to start calling people names as soon as someone disagrees with them. So as you give me advice on forum ettiquete, perhaps a look in the mirror (or a review of your own posts) is in order. I'm just sayin'. ;)

What knowledge you do possess is usually overshadowed by posts like these. And that's why in the 7 years you've been here, I've never paid much attention to you. I know my limitations. Sad that you can't see your own. The grumpy old man schtick does wear thin after awhile though.

_______________________

Unless you are simply magnifying your ignorance...

You must be one of those twits who believe nukes of any sort will create a world full of mutants.
Fine if you live in a nerd sci-fi world...


Your analogy and rhetoric, has taken you down to the level of Eki obtuse foolishness.


Are you sure you and Eki are not the same person.
This post makes you two sound an all lot alike.


Now, now Marka-eki, that is not nice.


They are of the Negro race gomer, look it up, before you take you afternoon nap.

[Jag_Warrior]

It seems that BP is claiming they are now capturing 16K barrels/day with the cap method. The oil is being pumped into ships on the surface.

Bloomberg is also reporting that the police in Kent are providing 24 hour police protection to Tony Hayward and his family. And, according to Bloomberg, Hayward's boss (the Chairman) may lose his job. Usually (in the U.S.) if the Chairman gets the ax, the CEO/President gets shot too. We'll see...

[anthonyvop]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nuclear_tests_at_Maralinga

We are talking underwater radioactive fallout. Try to stick to the subject.

[Bob Riebe]

Yes, Bob, I fully agree with that statement. Take it to heart, why don't you? The sad things is, as you typed that statement, it remains that you know not, and you know not that you know not.-- -- [b]In your opinion and you are welcome to it.

I've agreed and disagreed with people like Daniel, Rollo, Mark in Oshawa, Chuck34, Eki and great many others here... often times an agreement and a disagreement on the same day. But unlike you, they are not ones (at least in my experience) to start calling people names as soon as someone disagrees with them. So as you give me advice on forum ettiquete, perhaps a look in the mirror (or a review of your own posts) is in order. I'm just sayin'. ;) -- What ever floats your boat.http://foolstown.com/sm/bur2.gif

What knowledge you do possess is usually overshadowed by posts like these. And that's why in the 7 years you've been here, I've never paid much attention to you. I know my limitations. Sad that you can't see your own. The grumpy old man schtick does wear thin after awhile though.-- Again your opinion and you are welcome to it

_______________________
I too often reply to the rhetoric in kind. (Admittedly not a good habit to get into.)

I said, in my opinion, you were better than grade school or wiki twit responses, but if you prefer the former, you got it.
I will simply take your posts as grade school blather or wiki twit type.
I apologize for thinking more highly of your usual rhetoric than you prefer.

As to how much attention you give, or do not give, que sera, sera this is a inter-net forum. As a leisure activity, opinions are considered, as such.
And you are overly sensitive.
Fini.
Bob

[Daniel]

We are talking underwater radioactive fallout. Try to stick to the subject.
Yes but Bikini atoll is in the middle of nowhere figuratively speaking and the oil well in question is in the middle of the gulf of mexico? Oh and how many years since the tests at Bikini atoll? I guess my example wasn't the best though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Crossroads#Bikini_after_Crossroads



Sport divers who visit Bikini to dive on the shipwrecks must eat imported food. The lagoon is teeming with fish, but none of it is safe to eat.

Now some sites seem to say that the fish are safe to eat, but equally a lot of others say they're not safe to eat.

As you well know the gulf of mexico is a fishing ground, I really don't think it's all that intelligent to detonate a nuclear device to seal the well unless it's the very last resort.

It should also be mentioned that the tests on the Atoll took place about 50 years ago, so while in 50 years time the gulf of mexico would most likely be safe, it woudn't necessarily be fine now.

[Daniel]

Like I said, until people are preparted to give up the use of fossils fuels, there is no use in crying over spilt milk. There are going to be accidents and environmental "distasters" such as the one we are seeing now.

I tend to agree. All this anger directed towards BP is bs unless it's proven that BP's practices directly caused this accident. This could have potentially happened to any other company anywhere else in the world

In fact it happened in Australia not long ago.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=west+atlas+oil+rig&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=west+atlas&gs_rfai=

If someone sits behind their keyboard and criticises Obama and BP then they sure as hell better not go outside and fire up their car and burn petrol.......

[Tazio]

They are of the Negro race gomer, look it up, before you take you afternoon nap.
Gomer :confused:
Check it out bro.
I lived in the Jim Crow South. I remember the black and white handled water fountains and "Colored Use Back Door" signs on restaurants.
I don't use the term "negro" or "negroid". I'm also of the belief that those who do are racist! And yes there are Black Racists!

[Bob Riebe]

Gomer :confused:
Check it out bro.
I lived in the Jim Crow South. I remember the black and white handled water fountains and "Colored Use Back Door" signs on restaurants.
I don't use the term "negro" or "negroid". I'm also of the belief that those who do are racist! And yes there are Black Racists!

As an aside, the father of three of my nephews and nieces, who is a person of color, when I was questioning him about how his hood- views other ethnic groups, he pointed out some very dark Negroes and said, "...those, the blue-black ones, we call them Africans. They have the big lips and flat noses."

That was prejudice, when it got to the Latinos, it turned to hate.

[anthonyvop]

Gomer :confused:
Check it out bro.
I lived in the Jim Crow South. I remember the black and white handled water fountains and "Colored Use Back Door" signs on restaurants.


How old are you?

[anthonyvop]

Yes but Bikini atoll is in the middle of nowhere figuratively speaking and the oil well in question is in the middle of the gulf of mexico? Oh and how many years since the tests at Bikini atoll? I guess my example wasn't the best though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Crossroads#Bikini_after_Crossroads




Now some sites seem to say that the fish are safe to eat, but equally a lot of others say they're not safe to eat.

As you well know the gulf of mexico is a fishing ground, I really don't think it's all that intelligent to detonate a nuclear device to seal the well unless it's the very last resort.

It should also be mentioned that the tests on the Atoll took place about 50 years ago, so while in 50 years time the gulf of mexico would most likely be safe, it woudn't necessarily be fine now.

First off don't use Wikipedia if you expect anybody to take you seriously.

2nd In the Gulf a Mexico there is a Huge Dead zone that just so happens to be in the same area of the spill. So to use the excuse that it would kill marine life is moot.

[markabilly]

They are of the Negro race gomer, look it up, before you take you afternoon nap.
There are two ways to use this term...one is very racist

[markabilly]

As an aside, the father of three of my nephews and nieces, who is a person of color, when I was questioning him about how his hood- views other ethnic groups, he pointed out some very dark Negroes and said, "...those, the blue-black ones, we call them Africans. They have the big lips and flat noses."

That was prejudice, when it got to the Latinos, it turned to hate.
more racist

i have known people like you.....i had some relatives who believed in seperate but equal.. ..the equal part was what brought them misery from certain folks, as people like you believed in making distinctions based solely on race, because black was not equal, but a sign of an inferior race in their eyes

and I also had relatives who strongly beleived in seperate but unequal.....

and as a child, saw the front room of the cafe for whites, served only by whites, and the backroom was for blacks served by blacks, with a backdoor to keep them out....

indeed. it is easy to spot this with you, because all they do is base stuff on race--and unlike religion, sexual preferences, politics and all the rest...race is something one is born into and can not escape as long as people like you keep remembering to remind them of such

and another sign, is the old "i ain't racist, because i got a freind/relative who is black, and he is more racist than me...

[Roamy]

As an aside, the father of three of my nephews and nieces, who is a person of color, when I was questioning him about how his hood- views other ethnic groups, he pointed out some very dark Negroes and said, "...those, the blue-black ones, we call them Africans. They have the big lips and flat noses."

That was prejudice, when it got to the Latinos, it turned to hate.

I fail to see a problem with the statement Blue Blacks are from Africa. It seems to be a fact not a prejudice. Certainly can be ascertained from facts.
I personally don't like thin lipped females from any country. With a preference for thicker lipped Latinas. Now I come from heavy influence from sweden. So these are just facts and preferences.

[markabilly]

First off don't use Wikipedia if you expect anybody to take you seriously.

2nd In the Gulf a Mexico there is a Huge Dead zone that just so happens to be in the same area of the spill. .

Yep, one big KABOOM, and that dead zone will be more deader and bigger :rolleyes:

The deal with russia nukes was above ground, a succes rate that depended upon the rock formation as well as the known above seas level effects of a nuke blast.

Even then, it was only 80% successful....

Underwater, the factors are far more complicated, and there is the unknown concussion effect of the water ,assuming they can drill the hole one mile or so into the ground to avoid some of this effect, and a great risk that the leak would end up more massive

[Bob Riebe]

I fail to see a problem with the statement Blue Blacks are from Africa. It seems to be a fact not a prejudice. Certainly can be ascertained from facts.
I personally don't like thin lipped females from any country. With a preference for thicker lipped Latinas. Now I come from heavy influence from sweden. So these are just facts and preferences.
I am glad it does not bother you.
Had you been there and heard the tone of voice, it would be more clear, but secondly, they were Borrrrrn in the U.S.A.

It was not where they were from it was what they looked like and it was his, and his friends method of separating them from "blacks" that looked black.
The "black" community fully divides and separates itself, as much as any -Caucasian ethnic separation.
It was a shame my almost brother-in-law ended up in prison for armed robbery, but I learned much from him.

[Bob Riebe]

more racist

i have known people like you.....i had some relatives who believed in seperate but equal.. ..the equal part was what brought them misery from certain folks, as people like you believed in making distinctions based solely on race, because black was not equal, but a sign of an inferior race in their eyes

and I also had relatives who strongly beleived in seperate but unequal.....

and as a child, saw the front room of the cafe for whites, served only by whites, and the backroom was for blacks served by blacks, with a backdoor to keep them out....

indeed. it is easy to spot this with you, because all they do is base stuff on race--and unlike religion, sexual preferences, politics and all the rest...race is something one is born into and can not escape as long as people like you keep remembering to remind them of such

and another sign, is the old "i ain't racist, because i got a freind/relative who is black, and he is more racist than me...
Your opinion, as you wish.
If it bothers you that all of my nephews and nieces are half-Caucasian and half-Negro, I feel sorry for you, but unless you have close family members of mixed blood I will always no more about such things than you ever will.

Of course if you do, you dare not say so as then by your rhetoric, you are a racist for having said so.
So as I said, you have your opinion and believe as you wish.

[Tazio]

How old are you?
I'm 56
After my parents finished graduate school at the Unerversity of Miami in 1961
we relocated to San Diego!
My memory of events between the ages of 4 and 7 are quite clear.
I had a black nanny and we were out and about in Coral Gables.
I could tell you a lot of about our exploits.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by markabilly
more racist

i have known people like you.....i had some relatives who believed in seperate but equal.. ..the equal part was what brought them misery from certain folks, as people like you believed in making distinctions based solely on race, because black was not equal, but a sign of an inferior race in their eyes

and I also had relatives who strongly beleived in seperate but unequal.....

and as a child, saw the front room of the cafe for whites, served only by whites, and the backroom was for blacks served by blacks, with a backdoor to keep them out....

indeed. it is easy to spot this with you, because all they do is base stuff on race--and unlike religion, sexual preferences, politics and all the rest...race is something one is born into and can not escape as long as people like you keep remembering to remind them of such

and another sign, is the old "i ain't racist, because i got a freind/relative who is black, and he is more racist than me...

Your opinion, as you wish.
If it bothers you that all of my nephews and nieces are half-Caucasian and half-Negro, I feel sorry for you, but unless you have close family members of mixed blood I will always know more about such things than you ever will.

Of course if you do, you dare not say so as then by your rhetoric, you are a racist for having said so.
So as I said, you have your opinion and believe as you wish.[/QUOTE]

[race aficionado]

Hey guys.
Let's leave this topic for the private message section of our forum.

Let's stay in topic. This issue concerns all of us, of every race, creed or color.

peace dammit!
:s mokin:

[Roamy]

Race
Fair enough
Now just why are the beef and kidney pies drilling off our shores??? They need to drill off the coast of England!

[Bob Riebe]

Hey guys.
Let's leave this topic for the private message section of our forum.

Let's stay in topic. This issue concerns all of us, of every race, creed or color.

peace dammit!
:s mokin:
http://foolstown.com/sm/duel.gif http://foolstown.com/sm/alc.gif

[Tazio]

Race
Fair enough
Now just why are the beef and kidney pies drilling off our shores??? They need to drill off the coast of England!
:rotflmao:
They are in league with the devil. One guess who! :p :

[anthonyvop]

I'm 56
After my parents finished graduate school at the Unerversity of Miami in 1961
we relocated to San Diego!
My memory of events between the ages of 4 and 7 are quite clear.
I had a black nanny and we were out and about in Coral Gables.
I could tell you a lot of about our exploits.

Ok. Just Checking.


Remember....It is all about the U.

[Tazio]

Ok. Just Checking.


Remember....It is all about the U.


:up: ;) you bet!!

[markabilly]

Your opinion, as you wish.
If it bothers you that all of my nephews and nieces are half-Caucasian and half-Negro, I feel sorry for you, but unless you have close family members of mixed blood I will always know more about such things than you ever will..[/quote]
By the very late sixties, I went from one extreme where race was always an issue...to the other, where I never noticed race one way or the other--and it was never a subject for conversation, initiated by me; the only exception is where someone else started making it an issue

If it were the same for you, you would not have brought the subject up nor being using these names for Obama

[Jag_Warrior]

I will simply take your posts as grade school blather or wiki twit type.
I apologize for thinking more highly of your usual rhetoric than you prefer.

Whatever works for you, Bob. My cousin is taking an AP Econ course in high school. So I was trying to help him with an assignment by (fully) explaining supply side economics to him. But like you, the lad just wants easy, quick answers to everything. Everything I said that was in deep detail was just "blah, blah, blah" to his young ears. I guess even old men can have young ears. *sigh*

On this particular topic, as I said, I'm not well versed on oil spills or using nuclear weapons to contain them. And as I also said, you do not appear to be either. So going off the deep end when not everyone jumps on your bandwagon, that using a nuclear device would be an easy (safe) slam dunk, does invite skepticism about your ability to (calmly, rationally) reason things out.

As for how you see my posts, I've lived this long without your love. Somehow, some way... I think I'll make it without you for a bit longer. I know it won't be easy.... but I'll surely try. :rolleyes:

As an aside, maybe you should try to mix some comedy into your intraweb schtick. Think about it. That's what made it work for Walter Matthau. Hey, I'm just sayin'.

[Daniel]

Race
Fair enough
Now just why are the beef and kidney pies drilling off our shores??? They need to drill off the coast of England!

beef and kidney pies :D

Good one :D

[Bob Riebe]

As for how you see my posts, I've lived this long without your love. Somehow, some way... I think I'll make it without you for a bit longer. I know it won't be easy.... but I'll surely try. :rolleyes:


See, you do not need me and I do not need you, http://foolstown.com/sm/ivn.gif I still believe you are too sensitive.

[F1boat]

I saw pictures of suffering animals and destroyed waters. I think that humans are becoming the plague of this planet. I am very, very sad about what is happening. Hell is on Earth and we are creating it :(

[SOD]

Race
Fair enough
Now just why are the beef and kidney pies drilling off our shores??? They need to drill off the coast of England!

you're not supposed to bring that up, you're supposed to rail against the Latinos.

[elis]

I saw pictures of suffering animals and destroyed waters. I think that humans are becoming the plague of this planet. I am very, very sad about what is happening. Hell is on Earth and we are creating it :(

Totally agree.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I saw pictures of suffering animals and destroyed waters. I think that humans are becoming the plague of this planet. I am very, very sad about what is happening. Hell is on Earth and we are creating it :(


Before you get sucked into the tragedy side of things a few salient points: 1) in the 50 years people have been drilling from platforms such as this, this is the FIRST incident of this sort. So to say offshore drilling is bad is as I said, like watching a house burn and decide don't build with wood no more. It is an overreaction. That said, BP dropped the ball and didn't follow the laws and didn't look after the enviroment. I am sure the US Gov't will make them pay for the clean up, and while this is an ecological disaster no doubt, the earth will bounce back in time if we put the time and effort into her recovery.

2) The attitude that we are becoming the plague of the planet then is to assume we should all not be on the planet since we are the problem. We are part of the planet, we are not a plague on it. We are part of the food chain, we belong here just like the pelicans or fish affected by this tragedy are. We have to do better, but we are not a plague. We are better than that, and we have to collectively try to do better by the planet, but the only constant on planet earth is change, and part of that change is our evolution as a technological species. In time, we will sort out how to be more ecologically friendly. That said, that computer you use to post on here is made with plastic. The gas in your car came from an oil well. Same one that oil that made the plastic did. Our existance on the planet with the comforts we have allows us to be more ecologically friendly with oil and technology. Take away oil, gas and the technology assocaited with it, and we are burning trees and starving. NEVER forget that....

[Alexamateo]

I saw pictures of suffering animals and destroyed waters. I think that humans are becoming the plague of this planet. I am very, very sad about what is happening. Hell is on Earth and we are creating it :(

With all due respect F1boat, this is hyperbole. While the disaster is terrible, it will be stopped, even if it takes a few months and the ocean will recover. As for oil in the water, that is nothing new as there is literally tons of oil already seeping into the Gulf of Mexico.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/j/d/jdf15/2010/05/back-when-this-all-first.php


A 2003 National Academies study estimated that about 980,000 barrels of oil, or about 41 million gallons, seep into the Gulf - every year. Recall that the Exxon Valdez is estimated to have spilled about 250,000 barrels.

The key difference of course is that this oil is seeping and not gushing from a single source, but the point is it will be stopped even if it takes until the relief well is dug, and recovery will take place faster than alarmists are predicting, because really the fact that crude oil is in the ocean water is not that big a deal. Right now it's just the point source concentration, but stop the gusher and it will disperse like normal.

The accident, as terrible as it is, is a product of success. With 4000 structures and 800+ manned platforms in the gulf, and 40 years since the Santa Barbara oil spill, we forget that we are fallible and accidents can happen. We'll tighten regulations, and go forward, because truthfully, I'd rather drill here, where we actually care about the environment and do something if an accident happens. Contrast this with Nigeria, who has had accidents and spills equal to or greater than the Exxon Valdez every year for the past 15 years, and nothing is ever done about it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

With all due respect F1boat, this is hyperbole. While the disaster is terrible, it will be stopped, even if it takes a few months and the ocean will recover. As for oil in the water, that is nothing new as there is literally tons of oil already seeping into the Gulf of Mexico.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/j/d/jdf15/2010/05/back-when-this-all-first.php



The key difference of course is that this oil is seeping and not gushing from a single source, but the point is it will be stopped even if it takes until the relief well is dug, and recovery will take place faster than alarmists are predicting, because really the fact that crude oil is in the ocean water is not that big a deal. Right now it's just the point source concentration, but stop the gusher and it will disperse like normal.

The accident, as terrible as it is, is a product of success. With 4000 structures and 800+ manned platforms in the gulf, and 40 years since the Santa Barbara oil spill, we forget that we are fallible and accidents can happen. We'll tighten regulations, and go forward, because truthfully, I'd rather drill here, where we actually care about the environment and do something if an accident happens. Contrast this with Nigeria, who has had accidents and spills equal to or greater than the Exxon Valdez every year for the past 15 years, and nothing is ever done about it.

Yes...Nigeria. Their spills don't seem to be on the news every night when they happen. BP is just getting hammered because of bad pr then...lol...and the fact they are clueless!

You are right...but I did forget about the Santa Barbara spill 40 odd years ago...

[racefanfromnj]

Before you get sucked into the tragedy side of things a few salient points: 1) in the 50 years people have been drilling from platforms such as this, this is the FIRST incident of this sort. So to say offshore drilling is bad is as I said, like watching a house burn and decide don't build with wood no more. It is an overreaction. That said, BP dropped the ball and didn't follow the laws and didn't look after the enviroment. I am sure the US Gov't will make them pay for the clean up, and while this is an ecological disaster no doubt, the earth will bounce back in time if we put the time and effort into her recovery.

2) The attitude that we are becoming the plague of the planet then is to assume we should all not be on the planet since we are the problem. We are part of the planet, we are not a plague on it. We are part of the food chain, we belong here just like the pelicans or fish affected by this tragedy are. We have to do better, but we are not a plague. We are better than that, and we have to collectively try to do better by the planet, but the only constant on planet earth is change, and part of that change is our evolution as a technological species. In time, we will sort out how to be more ecologically friendly. That said, that computer you use to post on here is made with plastic. The gas in your car came from an oil well. Same one that oil that made the plastic did. Our existance on the planet with the comforts we have allows us to be more ecologically friendly with oil and technology. Take away oil, gas and the technology assocaited with it, and we are burning trees and starving. NEVER forget that....

I was saying something similar earlier in this thread but I get greif because i miss a few periods or fail to capitalize properly, oh well water over the dam .I will however agree with you on your 1st point , All I will say on your 2nd point is in my opinion, this planet will clean up what ever mess me make of it.It probably wont be pleasant to humans. I would nt actually know because i wasnt there but id say the dinosaurs felt they were the top of this planet and they were, but they had their day and are now fossils. In time we will be fossils and just a distant memory
As i was poorly trying to say earlier our way of life needs to find a way to get away from fossil fuels,yes at the moment its the best we have. As you have said sir we are a smart bunch[ok myself excluded from my own statement], we can figure out how to stop this mess being made by BP and whoever else is involved. I will say in closing that its a good thing that the guy who invented the wheel didnt stop there and say "ok good enough". Good day everyone

[elis]

With all due respect F1boat, this is hyperbole.

Not wishing to make an assumption but I read F1boats comment as a wider view in general, not soley regarding this incident, but just another example to add to the ever burgeoning list.. & on that point I do agree with him. Humans are responsible for the majority of problems on the planet & it's undeniable that the victims of that are more often than not the wildlife & environment, be it 'accidental', or in some cases a deliberate act.

jmo ;)

[Hondo]

Let's not forget the times in human history where we were the victims of wildlife and the environment on a full time basis.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I was saying something similar earlier in this thread but I get greif because i miss a few periods or fail to capitalize properly, oh well water over the dam .I will however agree with you on your 1st point , All I will say on your 2nd point is in my opinion, this planet will clean up what ever mess me make of it.It probably wont be pleasant to humans. I would nt actually know because i wasnt there but id say the dinosaurs felt they were the top of this planet and they were, but they had their day and are now fossils. In time we will be fossils and just a distant memory
As i was poorly trying to say earlier our way of life needs to find a way to get away from fossil fuels,yes at the moment its the best we have. As you have said sir we are a smart bunch[ok myself excluded from my own statement], we can figure out how to stop this mess being made by BP and whoever else is involved. I will say in closing that its a good thing that the guy who invented the wheel didnt stop there and say "ok good enough". Good day everyone


Well keep up the debate no matter what. We do need to get off oil. I am sure the guy who figures out a way to make a car run on something other than gas or oil that performs as well if not better will be a VERY rich man. That is what people don't seem to grasp. If there was a technology out there that worked as well, believe me, the automakers would be on it like white on rice. They know that the key to winning market share and securing their place in the market depends on new products in tune with the public's desire to own cars that don't hurt the enviroment. I would love cars to get 100mpg, and would buy one if it is a car, in that it has 4 seats and the comforts I want now. It might be doable some day....but people have to realize until things DO change, then oil and the politics around it are part of the world....

[GridGirl]

I think the political tensions relating this this are reaching boiling point. I did find this open letter rather interesting.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Barack-Obama-RSA-Chief-John-Napier-Accuses-President-Of-Being-Anti-British-For-His-Attack-On-BP/Article/201006215647312

[racefanfromnj]

has anyone seen the documentary or what ever it is called "who killed the elctric car"i caught it on Encore channel. It had some intersting points about the "conspiracy" between GM the oil companies{i didnt catch any named company} and the stateof California, to get rid of the car .It was interesting

[anthonyvop]

has anyone seen the documentary or what ever it is called "who killed the elctric car"i caught it on Encore channel. It had some intersting points about the "conspiracy" between GM the oil companies{i didnt catch any named company} and the stateof California, to get rid of the car .It was interesting


Anybody who believes that movie has no grasp of the automotive industry or of the buying public.

[anthonyvop]

I have to admit...It is funny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AAa0gd7ClM&feature=player_embedded#!

[ShiftingGears]

I have to admit...It is funny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AAa0gd7ClM&feature=player_embedded#!

LOL

[555-04Q2]

I have to admit...It is funny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AAa0gd7ClM&feature=player_embedded#!

:laugh: Ant, that is the funniest thing I have watched in a loooooooong time :laugh:

Made my morning :up:

[Mark in Oshawa]

has anyone seen the documentary or what ever it is called "who killed the elctric car"i caught it on Encore channel. It had some intersting points about the "conspiracy" between GM the oil companies{i didnt catch any named company} and the stateof California, to get rid of the car .It was interesting

It is also fiction.

You think if the technology to make an electric car as good as any gas one was out there, the carmakers wouldn't PAY through the nose to get one on the market?

You would have to be out of your MIND to think they wouldn't, and GM's EV project was EVERYTHING that the green weenies wanted. It was a full scale trial, with a car that had practical ideas, being test marketed in America by ordinary Americans, in a state VERY friendly to the technology and one with a green conscience. With all that, no one wanted a car that had a range of 100 miles, was useless in REALLY hot weather (A/C killed the batteries) or really COLD weather (You notice they didn't test this sucker in New York City or some place WITH winter). The car cost a fortune, so GM would never make any money assuming anyone would buy one of these things for 4 times the cost of the gas powered car...

Oh ya..that movie...great movie if you like stupidity.....

[Bob Riebe]

If one can believe the air-ways, the U.S. citizenry is actually pointing fingers in the correct directions.
They find British Petroleum responsible for the spill, but find President Obama to be totally to blame for the asininely inept way the response has been handled.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If one can believe the air-ways, the U.S. citizenry is actually pointing fingers in the correct directions.
They find British Petroleum responsible for the spill, but find President Obama to be totally to blame for the asininely inept way the response has been handled.
Most people are smart enough to know Obama didn't create the problem, but he has been a spectator and it is obvious...

[Rollo]

If one can believe the air-ways, the U.S. citizenry is actually pointing fingers in the correct directions.
They find British Petroleum responsible for the spill, but find President Obama to be totally to blame for the asininely inept way the response has been handled.

The obvious question then is "What do you want him to do about it?"

This is a quite highly technical sort of problem, and besides which, BP have spent more than a billion USD in trying to solve the problem:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/06/01/world/AP-EU-Britain-BP.html

This is also quite apart from the fact that almost 45 days ago:
"In response to the BP oil spill, the Secretary of Defense is authorizing under title 32 the mobilization of the Louisiana National Guard to help in the ongoing efforts to assist local communities in the cleanup and removal of oil and to protect critical habitats from contamination. As the responsible party in this incident, the government will hold BP accountable for the costs of the deployment."
-Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell, May 1.

The National Guard was deployed, I mean short of invading the UK (which is the usual response), what do they expect the President to do? Have a giant chip fry up with all the oil?

[Bob Riebe]

The obvious question then is "What do you want him to do about it?"

This is a quite highly technical sort of problem, and besides which, BP have spent more than a billion USD in trying to solve the problem:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/06/01/world/AP-EU-Britain-BP.html

This is also quite apart from the fact that almost 45 days ago:
"In response to the BP oil spill, the Secretary of Defense is authorizing under title 32 the mobilization of the Louisiana National Guard to help in the ongoing efforts to assist local communities in the cleanup and removal of oil and to protect critical habitats from contamination. As the responsible party in this incident, the government will hold BP accountable for the costs of the deployment."
-Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell, May 1.

The National Guard was deployed, I mean short of invading the UK (which is the usual response), what do they expect the President to do? Have a giant chip fry up with all the oil?
National Guard-- good grief.

He has done nothing.
---------------------------------------------
Jones Act Slowing Oil Spill Cleanup?
June 10, 2010 - 5:41 PM | by: Brian Wilson

"Foreign companies possessing some of the world’s most advanced oil skimming ships say they are being kept out of efforts to clean up the oil spill in the Gulf because of a 1920’s law known as the Jones Act -- a protectionist law that requires vessels working in US waters be built in the US and be crewed by US workers.

Joseph Carafano of the Heritage Foundation has been studying the matter and wonders, “Are we accepting all the international assistance in the maritime domain that we can, and is the Jones Act an impediment to that?”

The Coast Guard and the Administration are quick to point out that some foreign technology is being used in the current cleanup effort. Including:

- Canada’s offer of 3,000 meters of containment boom

- Three sets of COSEQ sweeping arms from the Dutch

- Mexico’s offer of two skimmers and 4200 meters of boom

- Norway’s offer of 8 skimming systems

But that is largely technology transferred to US vessels. Some of the best clean up ships – owned by Belgian, Dutch and the Norwegian firms are NOT being used. Coast Guard Lt. Commander, Chris O’Neil, says that is because they do not meet “the operational requirements of the Unified Area Command.” One of those operational requirements is that vessels comply with the Jones Act.
"Yes, it does apply,” said ONeil,“ I have heard no discussions of waivers.”

Waivers to the Jones Act were granted by the administration of George W. Bush in the days following hurricane Katrina. And today, the Obama White House said waivers might again be considered.
“If there is the need for any type of waiver, that would obviously be granted,” said White House Spokesman Robert Gibbs. “But, we've not had that problem thus far.”

Democratic Senator Bill Nelson is not so sure about that. He’s hearing from the folks back home in Florida, where they want all the skimmer ships they can get. He sent a letter to Admiral Thad Allen today which read in part:
“Admiral, I believe the orange mousse of oil that is now in Florida’s waters is more than enough evidence that we need to take advantage of every appropriate global resource. Please advise as to whether we are taking full advantage of the offers of assistance from other countries.”

When asked about this by Fox News, Admiral Allen said, “If it gets to the point where a Jones Act waiver is required, we're willing to do that too Nobody has come to me with a request for a Jones Act waiver.”
After 50 plus days of oil flowing freely into the gulf, the question could be asked: Why do effective and proven foreign clean up ships remain on the sidelines? Carafano believes it may have something to do with the Obama administration’s close relationship with labor unions.

“Cause this is a big thing for unions,” Carafano said. “The unions see it as … protecting jobs. They hate when the Jones Act gets waived, and they pound on politicians when they do that. So … are we giving in to unions and not doing everything we can, or is there some kind of impediment that we don't know about?

If the Obama Administration needs an example of what can happen when global assets are allowed to tackle a massive oil spill, they need look no further than Saudi Aramco’s clean up of a massive wartime spill off the Kuwaiti coast in 1991. Aramco summoned every available ship to assist in the cleanup. The company claims it recovered 900,000 barrels of oil in roughly three months. The industry views that effort as the gold standard in oil spill cleanups."

[AAReagles]

Most people are smart enough to know Obama didn't create the problem, but he has been a spectator and it is obvious...
Since I live far away from the disaster, watching the constant news coverage, I felt like a spectator too :( .... then I did something about it. I filled up the bathtub, poured a can of oil in it and created my own natural disaster!... And I used BP oil too so I can collect one of their recovery checks. ;)

[Daniel]

Since I live far away from the disaster, watching the constant news coverage, I felt like a spectator too :( .... then I did something about it. I filled up the bathtub, poured a can of oil in it and created my own natural disaster!... And I used BP oil too so I can collect one of their recovery checks. ;)
Is an unprecedented cleanup operation now underway to restore your pristine bathtub to its former state? :p

[AAReagles]

I'm still trying to convince CNN to send in the Anderson Cooper media assault-team.

[flracing]

This disaster may be the last, I wouldnt worry too much about it.

Oil drilling will be the past, no need to drill as we have SO MANY holes now, soon well be lifting it by bucket and engine.

Oil crisis? does not exist...

If you take an engine and a bucket, drop the bucket down a well, and winch up some oil, at only 30mph the bucket will take only 2 minutes to reach the surface using NEXT TO NO PETROL!

Compare this to current pumping methods which uses A LOT of petrol to operate the pump.

Theres over 4000 pumps in operation just in the gulf alone, theres a lot of work to be done changing over, but the saving from needing to pump SHOULD help the enviroment and our pockets too.

Think about this, it's very funny.

If you take a rope and a bucket, and winched it up by hand, lets say it would take half hour to walk the 1.5 miles lifting 50 litres of crude oil, take that to a refinary. how much would you get? it's £90 a barrell which is 154 litres so your make about £30!

Not bad for HALF HOURS WORK LOL :)

[flracing]

If the oil companys are not cruel to us, then oil prices might drop to 1/4 or about 25p a litre!!! Fingers crossed!! :)

Please don't quote me on this... im guesstimating, or some might say dreaming... zzzzzzz

Heres a link to a past forum post showing my invention...

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43951

[Daniel]

You have been banned from that forum.... You will soon be banned from this one I guess......

[ShiftingGears]

If the oil companys are not cruel to us, then oil prices might drop to 1/4 or about 25p a litre!!! Fingers crossed!! :)

Please don't quote me on this... im guesstimating, or some might say dreaming... zzzzzzz

Heres a link to a past forum post showing my invention...

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43951

NO NO NO!

You know nothing about engineering. Sorry.

[flracing]

Sorry, my maths in my last 2 posts should be quoted in dollars not pounds, even better cash if you like hard labour :)

[flracing]

NO NO NO!

You know nothing about engineering. Sorry.

A. Whats wrong?
B. There is no choice in the future.

Please, no flame wars, ill walk.

[Daniel]

A. Whats wrong?
B. There is no choice in the future.
As pointed out in that thread they pump WATER into the well which is heavier than oil which forces the oil up. Your idea is just moronic in the extreme.

[ShiftingGears]

A. Whats wrong?

Did you even read the comments on that other forum?

[Daniel]

Thankfully multicoloured text is not allowed here......

[flracing]

That can't be true, show me a website explaining that... pumping down water is just a mess. Forget that insaine alien chap on the science forum, heys a dick.

It does make me laugh, one person talks crap, and then others believe him...

Im still waiting for a webpage explaining insains aliens idea...

[ShiftingGears]

That can't be true, show me a website explaining that... pumping down water is just a mess. Forget that insaine alien chap on the science forum, heys a dick.

I've had lectures where one of the head engineers of Exxon Mobil explains what they do, and lets just say you are horribly wrong.


It does make me laugh, one person talks crap, and then others believe him...

Well, at least noone is buying your idea.

[flracing]

I've had lectures where one of the head engineers of Exxon Mobil explains what they do, and lets just say you are horribly wrong.



Well, at least noone is buying your idea.

IF what you say is true then they have screwed everything up!!!!!!!!

Come on mate, show me a webpage... not crap talk...

[Daniel]

That can't be true, show me a website explaining that... pumping down water is just a mess. Forget that insaine alien chap on the science forum, heys a dick.

It does make me laugh, one person talks crap, and then others believe him...

Im still waiting for a webpage explaining insains aliens idea...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(oil_production)

[flracing]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(oil_production (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_%28oil_production))

Thats not raising oil, that moving it left to right.... which is something I did not know about, no matter.

One day people may even end up going down a well and mining for it by hand, just like coal....... a long time yet.

Atleast lifting oil is better for the enviroment. about 1/3 better!!!


Raising oil using water, what a joke!!! Just think of the pressure needed to lift a caverns worth of oil....

I may be on here for a reason, some peole are clever.... other really are not.... :)

[Daniel]

Thats not raising oil, that moving it left to right....

One day people may even end up going down a well and mining for it by hand, just like coal....... a long time yet.

Atleast lifting oil is better for the enviroment. about 1/3 better!!!


Raising oil using water, what a joke!!! Just think of the pressure needed to lift a caverns worth of oil....

I may be on here for a reason, some peole are clever.... other really are not.... :)
My god your ignorance knows no bounts. Oil is lighter than water.... think about it.

[flracing]

My god your ignorance knows no bounts. Oil is lighter than water.... think about it.


Im not too sure, pour water over some crude oil, how long you going to wait?

Anyway, they don't do that. Unless you show me a webpage...

[Daniel]

Im not too sure, pour water over some crude oil, how long you going to wait?

Anyway, they don't do that. Unless you show me a webpage...
Well it won't be too long till you're banned as you were on that other site :)

[flracing]

Well it won't be too long till you're banned as you were on that other site :)

Dan mate, you have over 33000 posts, i take it your on here cus you lost your driving licence?

[Daniel]

Dan mate, you have over 33000 posts, i take it your on here cus you lost your driving licence?
ROFL

I believe this qualifies as a web page. Now will you be quiet?

http://www.rigzone.com/training/insight.asp?insight_id=341&c_id=4

I find it amazing that at the age of 12 when you've already developed the perfect driving line as well as how to extract oil for a lot less that you're posting on a motorsport forum and not in the Playboy mansion with Heff shagging playboy bunnies :confused:

[flracing]

ROFL

I believe this qualifies as a web page. Now will you be quiet?

http://www.rigzone.com/training/insight.asp?insight_id=341&c_id=4

I find it amazing that at the age of 12 when you've already developed the perfect driving line as well as how to extract oil for a lot less that you're posting on a motorsport forum and not in the Playboy mansion with Heff shagging playboy bunnies :confused:

Give me time lol


That webpage explains moving it left to right, not raising it!

A pump can only suck up a max distance of 1.5 miles as worked out by einstein.

What about the oil deeper than 1.5 milees? were going to be lifting it using my idea...

Anyways dan, your bunnies made me laugh, so im arguing no more....
Enjoy your evening...

I know one thing though, if I had a well at the bottom of my garden, i would be rich lifting it, by hand if I had too, amasing profit all the less.

[ShiftingGears]

Give me time lol


That webpage explains moving it left to right, not raising it!

No, it is up and down. They do not suck it up, they pump water down. End of story. Your ridiculous ideas are not better than the environment, unless you consider extracting less oil to burn off better for the environment. Just drop it, get a degree and then flog ideas that people who did high school physics wouldn't laugh at.

[Daniel]

No, it is up and down. They do not suck it up, they pump water down. End of story. Your ridiculous ideas are not better than the environment, unless you consider extracting less oil to burn off better for the environment. Just drop it, get a degree and then flog ideas that people who did high school physics wouldn't laugh at.
You show him a webpage! LOL

[ShiftingGears]

You show him a webpage! LOL

:laugh:

[dunes]

I don't mean to create any enemies however too much talk and no action for the coastline and the animals whos habitate is there.
Lets start a high school collage course on ecology to help these kind of things get cleaned up not covered up.
IMO BP SHOULD go broke over this because the effects are and will prove to be never ending.I'm not taling about the fisheries or the fishermen either.
They like our goverment have been standing along side this disaster for weks and nobodys doing anything for the land or the wildlife. all the talk is concerniong the oil.Shame on you all.

[Macd]

Why has no one pointed out the obvious? The worlds greatest engineers have devised this method of getting oil, and now some idiot with no idea about simple physics has come up with a better idea in his shed whilst inventing some way of working out the perfect racing line? Either this guy's a troll or freakin doctor who.

[Rollo]

A pump can only suck up a max distance of 1.5 miles as worked out by einstein.
What about the oil deeper than 1.5 milees? were going to be lifting it using my idea...


Einstein's magnum opus was the General Theory of Relativity which is in the realms of theoretical physics, not either physical chemistry nor fluid dynamics as you suggest.
Einstein wrote ZERO papers about fluid dynamics and certainly none about pumps.

[elis]

.
IMO BP SHOULD go broke over this because the effects are and will prove to be never ending.I'm not taling about the fisheries or the fishermen either.


Just to clarify, that if BP go broke then the liklihood of thousands of American jobs would go with them. The rig was owned, operated, & maintained by Americans, Thousands of Americans are employed by BP globally, 40% of BP shares are American held, you'd have a reduction in your oil availabilty so would likely have to pay more at the pump... Several common 'brands' in the US fall under the BP umbrella, say sayanora to them & their employees too.

*No I'm not in any way 'defending' BP, it is unquestionably a marine disaster, but a little perspective is needed to quell the histrionics.. ;) *Oh & here's a little food for thought for some folks, before condeming just one party, BP has said they will pay for the clean up & compensate those affected.. pity the US aren't quite so forth coming when they 'create' such devestating accidents overseas.. sad fact.

[schmenke]

Just to clarify, that if BP go broke then the liklihood of thousands of American jobs would go with them. The rig was owned, operated, & maintained by Americans, Thousands of Americans are employed by BP globally, 40% of BP shares are American held, you'd have a reduction in your oil availabilty so would likely have to pay more at the pump... Several common 'brands' in the US fall under the BP umbrella, say sayanora to them & their employees too.....

If BP goes into receivership, its assets and drilling leases will be quickly purchased by another petroleum company. The rigs won't simply be left idle :mark:

[anthonyvop]

If BP goes into receivership, its assets and drilling leases will be quickly purchased by another petroleum company. The rigs won't simply be left idle :mark:

Quickly? Nothing is done quickly in bankruptcy court.

A BP bankruptcy will cost jobs and $$$. Let us not forget the BP is a World wide company. Any bankruptcy would effect millions worldwide.

I really doubt the BP would go bankrupt anyway. Their assets alone would preclude that.
What I do believe is that due to it's falling stock price a hostile takeover is likely.
Rumor is that BP believes it also.

LONDON (MarketWatch) -- BP PLC's /quotes/comstock/13*!bp/quotes/nls/bp (BP 30.22, -0.45, -1.47%) regular advisor Goldman Sachs is rumored to be preparing to fend off any potential takeover attempts for the U.K. oil major, reports the Independent on Sunday.

"BP's regular adviser, Goldman Sachs, is rumored to be dusting off the company's defense playbook," the paper says.

The Independent says a Western major company takeover attempt is "far-fetched" and an immediate takeover attempt in general is unlikely.

The paper says technical experts from "oft-speculated potential buyers ExxonMobil, Royal Dutch Shell and Chevron" are instead in Houston this weekend to help BP control the Gulf Of Mexico oil spill.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/goldman-reported-readying-bp-for-takeover-defense-2010-06-06

[BT46B]

The fact is this isn't an easy situation for anyone. It is a worst case scenario and no one has had to deal in real terms with some like this. People have to separate what is being done from what CAN be done. My only complaint is, as I have stated is the casual nature the feds have dealt with this, and the free pass they are getting. If Giulani was President, I am sure BP was told either fix the problem, or get the hell out of the way, and Giulani would have thrown every bit of kit he had at the problem, because on something like this, solving the problem is priority one, and the hell with politics or the cost.

Mark - I haven't read the rest of this thread, but Halliburton which is a company that happens to be in Cheney and other Republican Party biggies deep back pockets were involved in the construction of these oil rigs something which has been quited down since the first week (say no more, say no more). So the President may have a major amount of political issues to deal with before he goes flinging too much mud. The kind of 'throwing'' mud that complicates political costs and requires a lot of manuvering before being undertaken! And all this caused by the FORMER administration not his.

[Mark]

If BP goes bust who is going to pay for the cleanup?

[BT46B]

If BP goes bust who is going to pay for the cleanup?

My guess is the US is going to get stuck with the bulk of everything, the oil mess, the pollution issues and the financial ones. That's how it generally goes for us.

[Mark]

My guess is the US is going to get stuck with the bulk of everything, the oil mess, the pollution issues and the financial ones. That's how it generally goes for us.

The big problem is consequential loss. You can clean things up fine but how do you quantify the loss in terms of peoples jobs etc? Even the people themselves would have trouble putting a number onto it.

[GridGirl]

I've made my first non-adjusting post balance sheet event disclosure in a set of charity accounts today due to the value of BP shares falling. The shares were worth more than 5% of its total investment portfolio but not anymore. I wonder how more I'll have to make. :s

This disaster spreads far and wide. :(

[Hondo]

Everybody says Obama is an intelligent guy. Smartest President we've ever had. I don't know what they base this on. Maybe Obama should get a dive mask, fill his pockets with rocks, and go down to look at this leak in person. Perhaps he could think of a solution.

[Bob Riebe]

Mark - I haven't read the rest of this thread, but Halliburton which is a company that happens to be in Cheney and other Republican Party biggies deep back pockets were involved in the construction of these oil rigs something which has been quited down since the first week (say no more, say no more). So the President may have a major amount of political issues to deal with before he goes flinging too much mud. The kind of 'throwing'' mud that complicates political costs and requires a lot of manuvering before being undertaken! And all this caused by the FORMER administration not his.
You are blowing smoke, which is the same tactic Obama uses.

BP was one of the largest contributors to Obama's campaign, Halliburton is a minor player in this scene, as while BP is culprit number one for not using a
safety device, Obama is culprit number two for giving them the waiver to allow it, while denying a waiver so foreign outfits could come with oil reclamation devices.

You don't work for the Obama boys do you?

[race aficionado]

BP was one of the largest contributors to Obama's campaign, Halliburton is a minor player in this scene, as while BP is culprit number one for not using a
safety device, Obama is culprit number two for giving them the waiver to allow it, while denying a waiver so foreign outfits could come with oil reclamation devices.


Reliable LINK Please.
:s mokin:

[AAReagles]

The big problem is consequential loss. You can clean things up fine but how do you quantify the loss in terms of peoples jobs etc? Even the people themselves would have trouble putting a number onto it.

Well, if you think about it, there's a bit of irony to this; almost poetic justic-like when you look at in a perspective of industrialized nation compared to underdeveloped countries.

This was a result of blind greed, so much so, that we were willing to cut corners to save a buck, and yet the end result turned out far more catastrophic than anyone in that industry was willing forecast as a potential hazard - not only to themselves, but the fishing industry, touring industry, and any others I may have failed to mention.

In the meantime, in such a place as Somalia, their fishing industry - which did exist to some greater or lesser extent - was altered by South Korean, Spanish, Portuguese and fishing trawlers from other modern countries, that smothered their waters to such a vast extent, that some fishermen could no longer support their families, much less themselves, that they resorted to piracy.

The only good thing I see out of this oil spill is that it will benefit the west coast, particularly California, since we'll receive the tourists that Florida (and perhaps the Carolinas ?) would have had.


Grid Girl brings up a good point about BP, as considering the amount of money this will cost... if it is indeed paid of course, I wonder if BP will go the way of Union Carbide.

[Bob Riebe]

Reliable LINK Please.
:s mokin:


Look it up I am not your card-catalog; although I worded that wrong, British Petroleums biggest contribution was to Obama, they were not one of his top contributors

[Rollo]

Grid Girl brings up a good point about BP, as considering the amount of money this will cost... if it is indeed paid of course, I wonder if BP will go the way of Union Carbide.

I'm wondering what will happen if this disaster rips BP to bits.

If BP is brought to court with multiple law suits, it could possibly file for bankruptcy and then it would be placed into either administration or worse, the liquidators would step in.
If the company is liquidated, BP would be picked apart like carrion by the other supermajors, and the relevant parts of the company would remain untouched.

Thus, legally BP would cease to exist, the environmental disaster would continue, the other oil companies would carry on as normal, and the poor people who have lost their livelihoods wouldn't be helped even an iota.
That is what I fear is going to take place over the next three years.

[AAReagles]

... If BP is brought to court with multiple law suits, it could possibly file for bankruptcy and then it would be placed into either administration or worse, the liquidators would step in...

Thus, legally BP would cease to exist, the environmental disaster would continue, the other oil companies would carry on as normal, and the poor people who have lost their livelihoods wouldn't be helped even an iota.
That is what I fear is going to take place over the next three years.


That's what I was getting at, since none of those guys responsible at Union Carbide were held accountable. That case with UC came up again recently, and I myself had by now, at least, completely forgotten about it.

From what I saw, most of those got off with minor sentences that were not applied for some years later. Such instances are taken for granted all too often. Which of course means that unfortunately for us commoners, as much as we would ALL like to make life better for not only ourselves, but others as well, we are too busy trying to keep our own heads above water.

This world is so polluted with so much bureaucracy, that it makes biological contamination pale in comparison.

All I know is that if some truck driving associates of mine can make the mistake of working for someone who is irresponsible for maintaining the proper paper work, and try to gain back for lost wages and unpaid fines (as a result of office negligence), and yet can't collect because the 'official' owner of the company changes the name (and ownership of the outfit) and hands over the company with a relative to avoid a lawsuit... well, the power-brokering on such a grande scale would be much different for a case of a major oil spill.

This is only about oil of course, but wait till the time comes when the next precious resource becomes water itself. That will make things real interesting...

[BT46B]

The big problem is consequential loss. You can clean things up fine but how do you quantify the loss in terms of peoples jobs etc? Even the people themselves would have trouble putting a number onto it.

My point precisely Mark, we are SCREWED on this one, you could just about bet on it!

[race aficionado]

Look it up I am not your card-catalog; although I worded that wrong, British Petroleums biggest contribution was to Obama, they were not one of his top contributors

So Obama himself told them not to use the safety device? Or are you talking of a government office that did not do it's job and you conveniently blame the president that you so much dislike.


:s mokin:

Oh, and as for your Palin's accusation of the BP contributions to candidate Obama let me add this quote that you probably missed:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/23/palin-links-bp-donations-obama-explain-gulf-spill-response/

[quote"Obama is the top recipient of BP PAC & individual money over the past 20 years. Dispute these facts," she wrote, linking to a Politico article citing campaign finance reporting showing more than $3.5 million given to candidates by BP since 1990.

The largest single donation by BP -- $77,051 -- went to Obama.

However, Palin did not point to another set of numbers reported by campaign watchdog, the Center for Responsive Politics, which showed the oil and gas industry overall contributed $2.4 million to John McCain's 2008 presidential campaign while $898,000 went for Obama's bid.[/QUOTE]

[Mark]

That's what I was getting at, since none of those guys responsible at Union Carbide were held accountable.

It was on TV recently on one of those travel around the world programmes. Basically the plant is just derelict, and they've done absolutely nothing with it! And there are people living right beside it. A disgrace.

[Roamy]

I'm wondering what will happen if this disaster rips BP to bits.

If BP is brought to court with multiple law suits, it could possibly file for bankruptcy and then it would be placed into either administration or worse, the liquidators would step in.
If the company is liquidated, BP would be picked apart like carrion by the other supermajors, and the relevant parts of the company would remain untouched.

Thus, legally BP would cease to exist, the environmental disaster would continue, the other oil companies would carry on as normal, and the poor people who have lost their livelihoods wouldn't be helped even an iota.
That is what I fear is going to take place over the next three years.

Yes Rollo this is a wonderful thought. !!!!!

[Bob Riebe]

So Obama himself told them not to use the safety device? Or are you talking of a government office that did not do it's job and you conveniently blame the president that you so much dislike.

It is Obama's administration with people he appointed, cheap excuses are just that cheap.

I have not heard anything about massive firings of the people who gave the waiver either.

[AAReagles]

It was on TV recently on one of those travel around the world programmes. Basically the plant is just derelict, and they've done absolutely nothing with it! And there are people living right beside it. A disgrace.


I spotted a news spot on it, while watching a bit of mainstream media, and from what I remember, it stated that people killed during the explosion, transmission of chemicals and those who died later on from the after-effects, amounted to an incredible 14,000 deaths.

Profits over people as usual. :dozey:

Now how's that saying go?... "... it's nothing personal, it's just business."

[Mark in Oshawa]

This is only about oil of course, but wait till the time comes when the next precious resource becomes water itself. That will make things real interesting...

THAT is a debate and conversation that I am waiting for. Canada is very aware of being as it is we hold more fresh water than the rest of the world. What is more, we have a lot of people thinking we shouldn't sell it to the world either.....the politics of this are a hornet's nest here already.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I spotted a news spot on it, while watching a bit of mainstream media, and from what I remember, it stated that people killed during the explosion, transmission of chemicals and those who died later on from the after-effects, amounted to an incredible 14,000 deaths.

Profits over people as usual. :dozey:

Now how's that saying go?... "... it's nothing personal, it's just business."

Union Carbide should have had people in jail over what happened in Bhopal. BP execs should be paying a heavier price for this than they will.

AS should the government oil regulators and inspectors who should be and have the mandate to stop all drilling and/or exploration if precautions are not being taken. Instead, BP did what they wanted when it was well known they were outside the law and cutting corners at times...

[AAReagles]

THAT is a debate and conversation that I am waiting for. Canada is very aware of being as it is we hold more fresh water than the rest of the world. What is more, we have a lot of people thinking we shouldn't sell it to the world either.....the politics of this are a hornet's nest here already.

Likewise. I’m wondering with all this discussion about immigration going on, that when is someone going to include on the subject - here in the state of California at least - that the water system we have now is only set in proportion to a population of approx., 20 million, NOT 30+.

This of course, is not including water needing to sustain the Ag industry of growing crops and raising livestock.






Union Carbide should have had people in jail over what happened in Bhopal. BP execs should be paying a heavier price for this than they will.

AS should the government oil regulators and inspectors who should be and have the mandate to stop all drilling and/or exploration if precautions are not being taken....

:up: :up: Exactly!

I see the MSS and other regulators being just as negligent as were the board members of the SEC (Securities Exchange Commission) when they were warned of a train-wreck coming to Wall Street.

[race aficionado]

:up: :up: Exactly!

I see the MSS and other regulators being just as negligent as were the board members of the SEC (Securities Exchange Commission) when they were warned of a train-wreck coming to Wall Street.

This is where it all falls apart. Human beings being interested in what's good for them and always focused on how they can take advantage of a position of power.
greed and irresponsibility is the norm.
:dozey:

[AAReagles]

... Human beings... greed and irresponsibility is the norm.
:dozey:

Which is why I don't expect things to improve much. As I have little faith in mankind.

[Bob Riebe]

THAT is a debate and conversation that I am waiting for. Canada is very aware of being as it is we hold more fresh water than the rest of the world. What is more, we have a lot of people thinking we shouldn't sell it to the world either.....the politics of this are a hornet's nest here already.
The Great Lakes States are on board with Canada.

To those states that survive only by river reservoirs and irrigation, life is a bitch, you're screwed.

We have had rivers stop flowing in Minn., we are not going to be more miserable to they do not have to.

[Bob Riebe]

[quote="Mark in Oshawa"]

That is not only a lie, but a damned lie; all it took was for the Obama administration to follow, rather than waiver, the law and do the test, then
it would not have happened.

Remember not too long before this, the Obama administration was bragging up BP as the best of oil companies.

BP has to pay, but if any one is tried, it should be people from the Obama Administration.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That is not only a lie, but a damned lie; all it took was for the Obama administration to follow, rather than waiver, the law and do the test, then
it would not have happened.

Remember not too long before this, the Obama administration was bragging up BP as the best of oil companies.

BP has to pay, but if any one is tried, it should be people from the Obama Administration.

Bob if you think Dubya was standing over BP threatening to shut them down for shady practices, you are dreaming in technicolor. Listen, I have no time for Obama, but lets cut to the chase. This is a failure and indictment of the US government regulatory structure as a whole. The political will to crack the whip on big oil wasn't there with Bush or Clinton, and it wasn't there with Obama either. No one pays attention to this stuff apparnetly until the oil hits the water.

Obama got a lot of money from BP? Great, anyone naive enough to think Bush wasn't getting a lot donations from Big oil? You really want to go down THAT road?

Listen, this is no different than the SEC not cracking the whip on Wall Street. The US government is there to regulate industry, and enforce the law. They didn't before, and didn't this time, and while politcal games and interference make the water murkier, the fact is the bureaucracy in Washington has been allowed to look the other way for years.. Both Parties have a role to play in this, and that is why the Tea Party movement goes after Republicans at times too. People down there are rightfully pissed that government cannot even do the job it is designed to do....

[Bob Riebe]

Bob if you think Dubya was standing over BP threatening to shut them down for shady practices, you are dreaming in technicolor. Listen, I have no time for Obama, but lets cut to the chase. This is a failure and indictment of the US government regulatory structure as a whole. The political will to crack the whip on big oil wasn't there with Bush or Clinton, and it wasn't there with Obama either. No one pays attention to this stuff apparnetly until the oil hits the water.

Obama got a lot of money from BP? Great, anyone naive enough to think Bush wasn't getting a lot donations from Big oil? You really want to go down THAT road?

Listen, this is no different than the SEC not cracking the whip on Wall Street. The US government is there to regulate industry, and enforce the law. They didn't before, and didn't this time, and while politcal games and interference make the water murkier, the fact is the bureaucracy in Washington has been allowed to look the other way for years.. Both Parties have a role to play in this, and that is why the Tea Party movement goes after Republicans at times too. People down there are rightfully pissed that government cannot even do the job it is designed to do....
There is no whip to crack. GThe LAST thing needed is Washington with more authority.
Back when oil was ten dollars a barrel and thousands of oil workers were out work causing a financial and labor crisis, DC gave oil companies a needed break.
Oil prices came back up but now people want to talk out of both side of their mouths, ignoring why oil companies got the tax laws they did.

What happened to Fannie and Freddie makes this supposed big oil collusion lie, as important as a zit on a gnats ass.
That was a problem caused by both parties of the Fed. government, THIS is strictly OBAMA, giving a waiver that would have prevented this disaster, and now trying to blame anyone but themselves for it.

BP owes he money, Washington should be prosecuted.

The loathing for big oil is based on jealous vengence more than anything.

[Jag_Warrior]

Listen, this is no different than the SEC not cracking the whip on Wall Street. The US government is there to regulate industry, and enforce the law. They didn't before, and didn't this time, and while politcal games and interference make the water murkier, the fact is the bureaucracy in Washington has been allowed to look the other way for years.. Both Parties have a role to play in this, and that is why the Tea Party movement goes after Republicans at times too. People down there are rightfully pissed that government cannot even do the job it is designed to do....

Good post. :up:

Unfortunately, there are more than a few Americans who (blindly) see things the way that Rep. Joe Barton of Texas does. Hopefully after apologizing to Hayward a couple of days ago, Barton then took Tony out to one of those Korean massage parlors that populate D.C. and treated him to a good rub & tug. Heck, he gave Hayward a rub & tug on the House floor. Might as well pay for him to get another session (with a woman this time) later that evening.

You know another guy whose life has been ruined? Bernie Madoff! Him in jail for life and his poor wife, Ruthie, now has to get permission from the government before she can even buy a new Mercedes! :bigcry: Damn gubment!!!

It'll be interesting to see what the (true) root cause of this blow out was. Were corners cut? Was the issue just on this rig, with whomever was managing this particular project, or is this a systemic problem within BP? Who knew what and when? And as many of us well know, the concept of plausible deniability is the spare ammo that all executives have at their disposal. So it'll be interesting to see how this plays out, as far as BP is concerned... and as far as the failings of our regulatory bodies are concerned.

[Bob Riebe]

It'll be interesting to see what the (true) root cause of this blow out was. Were corners cut? Was the issue just on this rig, with whomever was managing this particular project, or is this a systemic problem within BP? Who knew what and when? And as many of us well know, the concept of plausible deniability is the spare ammo that all executives have at their disposal. So it'll be interesting to see how this plays out, as far as BP is concerned... and as far as the failings of our regulatory bodies are concerned.
The valve was not tested due to a government waiver, and it failed.
End of story.

Instead of imitating Eki and posting Madoff bs, that is not related to the thread, try keeping up with the dozens of news stories on the net, you will probably learn a little more.

It will be interesting to see how Obama tries to change the truth to cover his incompetence, but then he did campaign on change.

[Jag_Warrior]

The valve was not tested due to a government waiver, and it failed.
End of story.

Instead of imitating Eki and posting Madoff bs, that is not related to the thread, try keeping up with the dozens of news stories on the net, you will probably learn a little more.

It will be interesting to see how Obama tries to change the truth to cover his incompetence, but then he did campaign on change.

This is one I can't help you with, Bob. And it's for the same reason that I didn't accept just everyone who applied to take my Six Sigma classes years ago. When you can understand what root cause analysis is... and more importantly, what it is NOT, come back and we'll discuss this.

Until then, please continue humoring us with the "theory" that not inspecting something CAUSES it to malfunction. It's the same sort of backward thinking that's caused more than a few manufacturers to think that increasing inspection steps brings about higher quality. :rolleyes: The system for drilling and capturing this oil was not robust. The question is, "why wasn't it?" And some outside party (even Obama's evil, socialist, fascist gubment) not telling you to do something is not a reason for a system failing.

[Hondo]

My experience with Root Cause Analysis (The latest trend in the industrial biz about 6 years ago. If you didn't have an RCFA team up and ready to go, you weren't on the cutting edge of Team Work and Manufacturing Work Systems.) is that RCFA results can be just as wrong as any other method, depending on the integrity of the team. Kind of like a big NASCAR team with heavy oil company sponsorship explaining the cause of their DNF as an ignition failure but not mentioning that after their engine siezed, it blew a chunck of engine block through the ignition module. Some times it what you don't say.

I have a buddy that worked on that rig. His rotation was onshore when the explosion happened. He is still being paid by the company and they have been told to expect to go back to work in August. He and I are both I/E Techs. Prior to Sep 2008, we worked on the same jobsite for 10 years. The "I" portion of the job title stands for instrumentation, i.e., all of the devices and computer systems that create and allow an automated process control. This includes pressure and temperature transmitters, automatic valves, density transmitters, level transmitters, and various detectors.

In any production business, production is king and anything else is secondary. There is nothing unusual about having a system fault "cured" by an I/E through the use of a hard wire jumper (permissive shunt) or going into the software program to install a "force" (a bogus true or not true condition) or a compromise varible that will allow production to continue. This is something an I/E will not do on his own, ever. That decision is made by management and the engineers. This may sound evil but it isn't always so. There are hundreds of control loops that are not critical or may be for information only, without controlling anything. As a general rule, all forces are logged and tagged and are repaired when the parts come in or when that section goes down for routine maintenance. On a critical loop, every I/E I've ever worked with has never been too job scared to let management know that they're playing with fire if they "force" a certain loop. Some, myself included, get them to sign off personally in our Day Timer notebooks before they'll force a critical loop. Sometimes that will stop them in their tracks.

I don't know what caused the blow out but based upon industrial experience my guesses would be:

A geological condition that has not been encountered before.

A navigational or GPS error that allowed the rig to get too far out of position causing the line to bend, raising pressures, and preventing a valve from seating.

Equipment failure in the nature of an automatic valve failing or being unable to seal off due to higher than expected pressures.

Control room personnel refusing to believe they have a process problem and insisting it is a failed instrument. Happens all the time. On land, you can prove quickly that the instrument is ok.

Too many "forces" in control and or cascade loops.

One thing I am sure of without ever having been out there is that management and engineers were warned about (and chose to ignore) dangerous and "iffy" conditions by the guys out there on their tools and doing the work.

[Bob Riebe]

This is one I can't help you with, Bob. And it's for the same reason that I didn't accept just everyone who applied to take my Six Sigma classes years ago. When you can understand what root cause analysis is... and more importantly, what it is NOT, come back and we'll discuss this.

Until then, please continue humoring us with the "theory" that not inspecting something CAUSES it to malfunction. It's the same sort of backward thinking that's caused more than a few manufacturers to think that increasing inspection steps brings about higher quality. :rolleyes: The system for drilling and capturing this oil was not robust. The question is, "why wasn't it?" And some outside party (even Obama's evil, socialist, fascist gubment) not telling you to do something is not a reason for a system failing.
You must work in quality control, some where, the attitude of "If I do not test it to see if it will fail, will guarantee it will work" has infested too many companies.

Hmmm, not them telling to do something that is required by law to be done once a month, not a reason for it failing.
Shizzam, that was why Obama, as usual did not have the faintest idea, that it might fail, he did not have it tested, which was supposed to be done once a month.

Why your hero, Obama, whose administration had this opinon of that rig:
Since January 2005, inspectors issued just one minor infraction for the rig. That strong track record led the agency last year to herald the Deepwater Horizon as an industry model for safety.

Now as your rhetoric is back to flatulation as usual, the valve failed a test a few hours before the explosion and here is why it was not checked, even though your fearless leader Obama, flaps his lips about change, his talk is cheap as all he does is talk.

From the AP:
LOS ANGELES — The federal agency responsible for ensuring that the Deepwater Horizon was operating safely before it exploded last month fell well short of its own policy that the rig be inspected at least once per month, an Associated Press investigation shows.

In fact, the agency's inspection frequency on the Deepwater Horizon fell dramatically over the past five years, according to federal Minerals Management Service records. The rig blew up April 20, killing 11 people before sinking and triggering a massive oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.

Since January 2005, inspectors issued just one minor infraction for the rig. That strong track record led the agency last year to herald the Deepwater Horizon as an industry model for safety.

The inspection gaps are the latest in a series of questions raised about the agency's oversight of the oil drilling industry. Members of Congress and President Barack Obama have criticized what they call the cozy relationship between regulators and oil companies and vowed to reform MMS, which both regulates the industry and collects billions in royalties from it.

Earlier AP investigations have shown that the doomed rig was allowed to operate without safety documentation required by MMS regulations for the exact disaster scenario that occurred; that the cutoff valve which failed has repeatedly broken down at other wells in the years since regulators weakened testing requirements; and that regulation is so lax that some key safety aspects on rigs are decided almost entirely by the companies doing the work.

Obama your fearless leader, Mr. Change- Obama, who reads a good teleprompter, had over a year, during which time he did take time to kill oil leases, to make sure there were no waivers and that all tests be done.

Now he can blame it on George Bush, but wait, there were over twelve tests that were not done on his watch, buy hey, why pick-nits?

But NOOOO, he did not have the valve tested in the past year , that one did fail a test, five hours before the explosion, failed again, killing people, but hey why should Obama worry about that, it probably was not on one of the teleprompters he was reading.

" accept just everyone who applied to take my Six Sigma classes years ago. When you can understand what root cause analysis is... and more importantly, what it is NOT, come back and we'll discuss this."
God help your students.

Instead of living in the world of- If a tree falls in a forest, but no one hears it, does it make any sound?-- pixie dust land, try reading the news.

[Jag_Warrior]

In simplest terms, failure to perform a test or check does not CAUSE a malfunction within a (robust) system. What a foolish thing to suggest. Whether trying to score points against Obama, Bush or anybody else, that's just three shades of stupid. Something in a system fails, and a test or check may (or may not) detect an imminent failure. But all a system check tells you is that the system is properly functioning AT THE TIME THE TEST IS PERFORMED. But since there are similar systems, with similar components in oil rigs around the world, rather than just act the dufus, fully understanding the nature of this failure (and mapping out this failure mode) is the proper way to go. And no matter what BP has done (or not done) up to this point, I'd say there are people on the case now who will do exactly that. At these depths, is enough known about how these BOP's work over time? From what I've read, apparently not. So should checks be done more often on similar rigs RIGHT NOW, should there be a redesign of certain components, should, should, should...?

But the bottom line is, until this failure mode is fully understood, the appropriate corrective action can't be determined.

[Hondo]

Places I have been had their emergency valves checked, at the very least, weekly. Some "dump and divert" valves were checked daily. Checks on emergency valves that couldn't be done but twice a year were supplemented with emergency area evacuation drills, done weekly but at different times, and if you didn't take them seriously, you'd be looking for a job.
Things fail. The valve in question may have failed to close completely and against the 5000 psi I read about somewhere, the valve gate and seal would have been eroded away in no time at all. Just like your dripping faucet at home gets worse as the water erodes the hole larger and larger. You can go into any business and find violations. Sometimes you get by with it, sometimes you don't.

Ultimately, I think this will come down to a
"production first" type of accident. They were doing things they had done before and gotten away with it. It wouldn't surprise me if what was being done is a sort of industry standard.

[BT46B]

You are blowing smoke, which is the same tactic Obama uses.

BP was one of the largest contributors to Obama's campaign, Halliburton is a minor player in this scene, as while BP is culprit number one for not using a
safety device, Obama is culprit number two for giving them the waiver to allow it, while denying a waiver so foreign outfits could come with oil reclamation devices.

You don't work for the Obama boys do you?

No I don't, BOB. I did however work with Steven Chu's brother for 22 years he's the head of a big law firm in LA. They are a brilliant family and I hope Steven is as cool as his brother based on his position in government these days.

[Bob Riebe]

In simplest terms, failure to perform a test or check does not CAUSE a malfunction within a (robust) system. What a foolish thing to suggest. Whether trying to score points against Obama, Bush or anybody else, that's just three shades of stupid. Something in a system fails, and a test or check may (or may not) detect an imminent failure. But all a system check tells you is that the system is properly functioning AT THE TIME THE TEST IS PERFORMED. But since there are similar systems, with similar components in oil rigs around the world, rather than just act the dufus, fully understanding the nature of this failure (and mapping out this failure mode) is the proper way to go. And no matter what BP has done (or not done) up to this point, I'd say there are people on the case now who will do exactly that. At these depths, is enough known about how these BOP's work over time? From what I've read, apparently not. So should checks be done more often on similar rigs RIGHT NOW, should there be a redesign of certain components, should, should, should...?

But the bottom line is, until this failure mode is fully understood, the appropriate corrective action can't be determined.
Prevention has squat to do with it--" that the cutoff valve which failed has repeatedly broken down at other wells"-- THEY KNEW.

They had all the warning they needed, to nor do all the tests borders on criminal negligence-- especially by the government.

No wait, all those other valves failing-- that means they got a government gold star, last year, on their merit badge-- BRILLIANT!

[Mark in Oshawa]

The fact is the US Government has failed its people on this one. Once again, while private industry is motivated by profit, you would think regulators and inspectors with the US Government would be motivated to protect the public. Yet somewhere in the bureaucracy, BP was allowed to not be inspected on this rig. IN light of all of what I have read about BP, and how there was some issue with their operating procedures, I find this very troubling.

Deep sea oil exploration has been safe for the most part for years BUT one accident creates a catastrophe. Even if BP didn't do the right thing, I would expect my government to. If I was an American, I would be pissed and wonder why Obama can justify he can do healthcare better than the private sector when his department of Energy cant even inspect deep sea oil rigs on schedule?

[Jag_Warrior]

I think the part that's perplexing to me is that BP has admitted to knowing about issues with the BOP just hours before the accident, as it failed a pressure test that very day. And then BP's Senior VP for the Gulf, James Dupree, stated that "tests before the blast showed discrepancies in pressure levels." And recently I read that the valve had been modified in "unexpected ways".

As I've stated already, whether this had happened under Bush or Obama, I don't give the government a pass on its failing. But in light of what was known and/or suspected, what sort of people were running and managing that rig???

For anyone here who has ever been in a manufacturing facility of any size, you would know that OSHA's failure to perform an inspection does not give the facility carte blanche to ignore KNOWN, unsafe conditions. I'm happy and proud to say that even the most p!ss poor companies I've done work for would not knowingly put an employee in a life threatening situation. Most companies these days actually put safety first. Not because they really give a crap about the employees, but because once you have a reportable/lost time accident, your insurance rates skyrocket. So the best way to enhance profits (or minimize losses) is to correct known, unsafe MAJOR conditions. I've watched a few of Hayward's interviews. And if a dufus like him being able to become CEO is any indication of the brainpower at BP, maybe that explains why the rig management thought that doing something so incredibly stupid was OK. I don't know.

But to Mark's point about why bureaucrats at these various agencies (SEC, Dept. of Energy, OSHA, NHTSA, HUD, etc.) often can't seem to find their azz with both hands tied behind their backs... if you make the right connections, as long as you can convince yourself that what you find won't blow up in your face (pun intended), you can easily go from being a $60K/year agency grunt to a $200K/year consultant with a company you had been regulating. It's that common characteristic of human nature that's so obvious, yet so many people refuse to acknowledge it.

IMO, those on the left who believe that (JUST) increasing the size of an ineffective government agency is the answer, are off the mark. And by the same token, those on the right who believe that (JUST) shrinking the size of an ineffective government agency is the answer, are equally off the mark. Whether it's a system or an agency, when it's obvious that the system is flawed, its size has nothing to do with it. Whether its bigger or smaller, the job still isn't going to get done.

Maybe sooner or later we'll have a party and a President who (fully) understands that. But I doubt it. Just in reading some of the posts on this thread, I don't think that's what many people want or expect. As long as they get their own personal slice of pork, they just want something to whine or talk about, whether it be from the left or the right. Different sides of the same coin. Or as a pal of mine used to say, "different day... same pile of ###." Pretty sharp guy. I think he finally got on with Toyota. He should have gotten on with NHTSA first and I bet Toyota would have given him a much bigger signing bonus. :dozey:

[Hondo]

I think the part that's perplexing to me is that BP has admitted to knowing about issues with the BOP just hours before the accident, as it failed a pressure test that very day. And then BP's Senior VP for the Gulf, James Dupree, stated that "tests before the blast showed discrepancies in pressure levels." And recently I read that the valve had been modified in "unexpected ways".

As I've stated already, whether this had happened under Bush or Obama, I don't give the government a pass on its failing. But in light of what was known and/or suspected, what sort of people were running and managing that rig???

For anyone here who has ever been in a manufacturing facility of any size, you would know that OSHA's failure to perform an inspection does not give the facility carte blanche to ignore KNOWN, unsafe conditions. I'm happy and proud to say that even the most p!ss poor companies I've done work for would not knowingly put an employee in a life threatening situation. Most companies these days actually put safety first. Not because they really give a crap about the employees, but because once you have a reportable/lost time accident, your insurance rates skyrocket. So the best way to enhance profits (or minimize losses) is to correct known, unsafe MAJOR conditions. I've watched a few of Hayward's interviews. And if a dufus like him being able to become CEO is any indication of the brainpower at BP, maybe that explains why the rig management thought that doing something so incredibly stupid was OK. I don't know. :dozey:

This brings me back to a process control problem. There are automatic control loops out there that will run for damn near forever and others that fail far more often than they should. The high failure rates are generally caused by environment, not using the best device for the job, improper installation, and poor range selection or any combination of those reasons. Ultimately, the root cause is economics. This unit is cheaper, it would cost too much to locate it elsewhere, etc. Most smart instrumentation can be set up to go to it's lower range value or it's upper range value and stay there when it fails.

Just for fun let's assume the cut off valve is activated by an automatic control loop. There are three pressure transmitters on the loop. All three are calibrated at 0-4500 psi. One of them uses a pressure cell mounted in the side of the pipe. One uses differential pressure through an orifice plate and the third uses a sensor mounted in the process flow. Due to surges in the process flow, transmitter 3 frequently jumps to over range and alarms. Transmitters 1 & 2 show spikes, but do not go over range. The #3 transmitter is immediately suspect of being defective and not to be trusted. Each time 3 alarms the entire process shuts down. Expensive and annoying. Especially for the operators who have to put down the crosswords and internet and restart the process. Finally, #3 burns it's electronics out from going over range too much and stays in the high alarm state. For any one of a dozen good reasons it cannot be replaced right now so it is "no-opped" and taken out of the loop. Not a problem because we still have 2 working transmitters in the loop. But there is a problem. Transmitter #1 was installed too far back from the pipe wall and there is now a plug of hardened process between the pressure cell and the actual process flow. It is going to read what it is reading until the plug is cleared. That's why it never registered any of the surges. Transmitter #2 reads differential pressure through an orifice plate. Unfortunately and against the manufacturer's recommendations, it has been installed in an area where there is a high amount of turbulence in the flow so it is not accurate either. In addition to everything else and to stop these pesky and expensive shutdowns, with a few strokes on the laptop the loop has been changed to a polling loop where 2 or more transmitters have to show high pressure at the same time before the valve closes. Boom.

I can easily see the scenario above being done with operations and management honestly feeling like they had stopped an expensive problem without compromising rig safety at all.

[dunes]

It seems to me most of the posts here are anrgy at the cause of the accident. Here in America once the cause has been esstablished its formally swept under the rug. BP isn't going in head first and admitting anything of importance to the people its effected. OH right they gave 30% of the fishermen a job cleaning up yhier disaster and then slapping them in the face making them sign a waiver that they cannot sue later.BP ruined more lives than all of the casualties of the gulf war for Briton and the US combined and sit back go Yachting and haveing gtea while the people effected go without next months morgage payment.
Get your head out of your ars. WE don't care that they can't say mechanical error or workers error,or even natural disaster. WE want cleanup&repaymentment for what they destroyed,and what WE may never have again. Then WE want your stinking rigs the heck outta here. If you can't control the problum you caused by your own negligence and greed and admit you messed alot more up than your oil output then get the he!! out and don't come F#@&in back.JMO

Sincerly JOE BLOE American Citizen.

[dunes]

OK to all those I've offended by my strong language and capital letters I sincerly apololige and hope for your forgivness. Its not your fault and I'm sure noone here has any connection with the higher ups that run either Washington nor Britsh Protolleum.
Again I apologize for losing my cool about a land mass in the US that has had one struggle after another for the last 12 years, Just to be cast aside by some lobbiest and corporate big shots.
I'll nbever be this contemptible again-About this subject.

[anthonyvop]

It seems to me most of the posts here are anrgy at the cause of the accident. Here in America once the cause has been esstablished its formally swept under the rug. BP isn't going in head first and admitting anything of importance to the people its effected. OH right they gave 30% of the fishermen a job cleaning up yhier disaster and then slapping them in the face making them sign a waiver that they cannot sue later.BP ruined more lives than all of the casualties of the gulf war for Briton and the US combined and sit back go Yachting and haveing gtea while the people effected go without next months morgage payment.
Get your head out of your ars. WE don't care that they can't say mechanical error or workers error,or even natural disaster. WE want cleanup&repaymentment for what they destroyed,and what WE may never have again. Then WE want your stinking rigs the heck outta here. If you can't control the problum you caused by your own negligence and greed and admit you messed alot more up than your oil output then get the he!! out and don't come F#@&in back.JMO

Sincerly JOE BLOE American Citizen.

I don't know what America you live in but in the Real America BP is being reamed big time by both the media and the Politicians.
BP has also be strong armed into paying $20 billion to the US to pay. Including paying for things that they had noting to do with.

[AAReagles]

OK to all those I've offended by my strong language and capital letters I sincerly apololige and hope for your forgivness. Its not your fault...
I'll never be this contemptible again-About this subject.

Nobody is, or perhaps will be. The only thing I'm glad about this is that this happened on Obama's watch, not Bush's - otherwise we'd never hear the end of it from our distant cousins in other countries, much less the American media.

[AAReagles]

BP has also be strong armed into paying $20 billion to the US to pay.

I believe it when I see it.

[anthonyvop]

I believe it when I see it.

It will be over $20 billion when it is all done.

[Bob Riebe]

I don't know what America you live in but in the Real America BP is being reamed big time by both the media and the Politicians.
BP has also be strong armed into paying $20 billion to the US to pay. Including paying for things that they had noting to do with.
Chicago politician, Chicago politics.

OH yes, the Obama wants them to pay for the workers he has put out of work by preventing drilling operations.
I wonder if at night Pres. Obama looks at a mirror and chants- mirror, mirror, on the wall....

It may be just a false leak to distract the media from Obama, but it was said to day that Rhambo may be on his way out.

[Jag_Warrior]

Places I have been had their emergency valves checked, at the very least, weekly. Some "dump and divert" valves were checked daily. Checks on emergency valves that couldn't be done but twice a year were supplemented with emergency area evacuation drills, done weekly but at different times, and if you didn't take them seriously, you'd be looking for a job.
Things fail. The valve in question may have failed to close completely and against the 5000 psi I read about somewhere, the valve gate and seal would have been eroded away in no time at all. Just like your dripping faucet at home gets worse as the water erodes the hole larger and larger. You can go into any business and find violations. Sometimes you get by with it, sometimes you don't.

Ultimately, I think this will come down to a
"production first" type of accident. They were doing things they had done before and gotten away with it. It wouldn't surprise me if what was being done is a sort of industry standard.

It sounds like you've worked around these rigs and seem to know about these systems, so I'm directing this to you: according to this, about 45% of these BOP's are prone to failure. Is it because of lack of funding or lack of technology that the failure rate is so high? And should we not assume that it's not a question of if, but when, another deepwater well is going to pop?



Last year, Transocean commissioned a “strictly confidential” study of the reliability of blowout preventers used by deepwater rigs.

Using the world’s most authoritative database of oil rig accidents, a Norwegian company, Det Norske Veritas, focused on some 15,000 wells drilled off North America and in the North Sea from 1980 to 2006.

It found 11 cases where crews on deepwater rigs had lost control of their wells and then activated blowout preventers to prevent a spill. In only six of those cases were the wells brought under control, leading the researchers to conclude that in actual practice, blowout preventers used by deepwater rigs had a “failure” rate of 45 percent.
Details Emerge on Weakness in Well Design (http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/21/details-emerge-on-weakness-in-well-design/)

[Hondo]

Sorry Jag, I don't have a simple answer. There really is no one cause root failure. In my experience in petro-chem and other industrial production related industries, I can only offer my opinions based upon experience.

Because Mother Nature guards her hand so well there will always be a card she hasn't played yet that makes "when" a constant probability in any business that fools around with geology. Obviously, the more extreme the environment, the more difficult the remedy.

The biggest problems I see nowadays are as follows, also bearing in mind that the failure of one BOP or ESP device doesn't necessarily have to end in catastrophe. In addition, product testing can create a false sense of security. Prior to WW II the US and Germany both developed magnetic proximity warheads for their torpedoes. All the tests were hugely successful and very expensive so the testing was stopped and the weapons were put into production. In the field the weapons failed miserably when the war started. Amongst other things, the tests failed to take into account that the strength of the earth's magnetic field varies in different areas. OK:

Cost Cost Cost. Big business got to be big business by not spending any more money on production than they absolutely have to. When the salesman says this would be the minimum you need to do the job but we recommend you upgrade to this, the company will always go with the minimum. Always. Later on they might bite the bullet and upgrade the device but most just struggle along cursing the maintenance headache it has become.

Too much emphasis on paper trails. Managers trained for administration and bean counting with little actual hands-on experience with what they have been tasked to manage. They don't really know what is going on and have to rely on the advice of subordinates, some of whom may be in the cya mode.

Communication between the various shifts of operating personnel. They don't pass new developments on to each other or quickly forget them if they do. Yes there is a log book and sometimes they read it, but forget anyway.

Promotions to the control room based upon seniority rather than ability. Some control room operators can lose 2/3rds of their automatic control loops and still fly the thing by the "seat of their pants" just by watching their before and after information only loop data. Others can't run a pencil sharpener unless it is in automatic.

Routine. The operations crews have set routines of duties during their shifts. Once those are completed and barring any emergencies, they have the rest of the shift to hide out and nap, play cards, read, fool around on the internet, and watch movies on small dvd players. Except for napping and card playing, it's the same in the control room. When a panel alarms the operator will look up, check the nature of the alarm, cancel and reset it, and go back to his crossword. In short, the job is now interfering with their personal time.

Always blame the instrument, The lying transmitter. If operations doesn't like the numbers they're being shown, it's an instrument problem and never a process or product problem until proven otherwise.

Engineering. They have plenty of mechanical, chemical, and electrical engineers but very few, if any, process control engineers. As a result automatic measuring and control devices are selected based upon cost and installed where they can't accurately measure the process anyway. Like being too close to a 90 degree bend in the pipe. Some of these gunfighters are fresh out of school and eager to make a name for themselves by cutting costs and raising production.

An example. I got a call one night from the control room that I had a lying level transmitter on a vessel that was "swinging up and down" and causing a high alarm every 5 minutes. It had to be the transmitter because the measured flow into and out of the vessel remained the same. In this case a pressure transmitter was being used for a level transmitter which is not uncommon and ok to do in many applications. After looking at the loop on my laptop I went out to the vessel and hooked a communicator up to the transmitter. Sure enough, it was swinging. I continued to ponder the situation while cursing the annoying cloud of steam that came out of the process drain about every 5 minutes fogging everything up. Every 5 minutes...Hmmmm. I realized every time the steam cloud happened the indicated level also dropped. The only vent open on the vessel was a 4" pipe running from the top of the vessel down to the process drain. The added steam pressure was making the level look higher than it was. When the steam vented off, the indicated level dropped again. Ok, but why after ten years did this just start happening. I called the control room and asked if any changes had been made in how the product was handled before it was sent to us. Nope. Ok, I told the shift manager he had steam build up in the vessel and if he would send an operator out to open a top vent the level swing would stop. He did and it did. I then called an other area and asked if there had been a change in how they handled the product. They said there had been a change. There was no need to allow the product as much cool-down time so it was being sent, still hot, through the system. All the change forms had been filled out and approved and memos had been sent to the affected areas. I called my control room back and told them the news and after 10 minutes of rooting around, they found the memo. The next 2 nights I got the same call from my control room about the same problem (they had already forgot) and I told them to open a top vent. I made sure all the I/Es were in on the joke. I soon got a visit from the area electrical engineer who stated they couldn't leave that top vent open due to rain and other contamination. He wanted to raise the alarm level on the loop by changing the upper range value. I told him that would stop the bogus alarms but would not stop two very expensive automatic control valves from constantly wearing themselves out responding to bogus level changes. You might want to consider going to a capacitance or sonar level transmitter mounted on top of the vessel, that would be the proper thing to do. Nope, don't want to spend the money. Final solution and still there when I left 2 years later...operations went out on top of the vessel and built a tent frame out of broomsticks and duct tape and lashed it to the vent pipe flange. Then they took the top half of 4 rain suits and duct taped them together and tied the whole mess to their tent frame.

This one incident I have related has most of what I listed. It is a true story. Stuff like this is done everyday at manufacturing plants all over the country. We will continue to have accidents until the purse gets opened a little wider and human nature as far as job performance goes improves.

[Jag_Warrior]

Cost Cost Cost. Big business got to be big business by not spending any more money on production than they absolutely have to. When the salesman says this would be the minimum you need to do the job but we recommend you upgrade to this, the company will always go with the minimum. Always. Later on they might bite the bullet and upgrade the device but most just struggle along cursing the maintenance headache it has become.

So you think it's primarily cost, but also something to do with lacking the technology? That sounds reasonable. I had the good fortune to work with a former employer's aerospace division years ago (military contractor). Dude, it was like being Danica Patrick at a sponsor party. I can't swear to it, but I think even the carpets were made from shredded $100 bills. With government contracts (especially military), you create your profit margin when you write the proposal... and you'll easily get at least that level of profit (and probably more). My sense with oil, and most other industries, is that there is more unknown risk (for profit). But still, reading that TransOcean's study showing a roughly 45% failure rate of BOP's was pretty shocking. What's worse is that BP apparently modified this BOP in a way that wasn't kosher. So they took something that only worked about half the time anyway and really FUBAR'ed it. I heard something yesterday about some "shear mechanisms" that some BOP's have and some don't. I'm going to try to find a good illustration on those as soon as I get time.

IMO, deepwater drilling is an important sector. But clearly we've let the industry drift too far off on its own. It's not an area I've paid much attention to, outside of reading the odd Popular Science article over the years. But we've expended many more resources trying to understand space, and only a fraction of that amount understanding the deep sea. Since we need these rigs to function properly, and most of these various "green technologies" are still in their infancy, now is the time to devote more resources to developing whatever technologies are need to get BOP failure rates (well) below 45%... or maybe developing alternative safety measures.

[Hondo]

I'm also saying there may be better, higher quality, more appropriate BOP devices out there that are far superior to what was used, but at a higher cost. The devices on the BP rig may have only met the minimum "as designed" specifications and therefore were ok for use. Kind of like the Titanic. The Titanic actually had more lifeboat space than was required by the minimum standards of the day.

As far as the real story on industrial safety and short cuts taken in the field goes, you'll have to spend a few years out there on your tools before you know and understand the truth. You'd be amazed to know how often a leaking, spewing pipe has a chunk of pointed broomstick handle driven into it and then secured with a duct tape wrap to plug or slow down the leak. Maybe they'll shut down and fix it and maybe they'll start looking for a wider broomstick.

[dunes]

I don't know what America you live in but in the Real America BP is being reamed big time by both the media and the Politicians.
BP has also be strong armed into paying $20 billion to the US to pay. Including paying for things that they had noting to do with.

Strongarmed 20 billion wont ever come close to restoring the jobs perminitly lost and the industries habitat that made them; those will never recover.
Being reamed big time but allowed to continue there stalling and destruction of the gulf and its surrounding states, Allowed to continue to drill in the future in the gulf, and in the ocean.
Let someone else clean up thier mess and send them the tab for everything when its all back to normal, until then stay out of the gulf and out of our country.How many chances would you give someone who destroyed your surroundings and way of life before you stoppeed them permenitly.


Money doesn't cover nor replace what they destroyed in the gulf.
And I'm only speaking of what BP did with this latest disaster and how they handled the after effects.Scapgoating,stalling and passing the buck.

[dunes]

Nobody is, or perhaps will be. The only thing I'm glad about this is that this happened on Obama's watch, not Bush's - otherwise we'd never hear the end of it from our distant cousins in other countries, much less the American media.
I'm sure this will help us all to hide away in memory all the things that happened to poor old Georgy Porgy Boy.
That wasn't my point and reguardless how you feel about Obama he too should have and could have done more. Only difference between George's Katrina and Obama's BP is Obama still has time to do the right thing.

[BT46B]

I'm sure this will help us all to hide away in memory all the things that happened to poor old Georgy Porgy Boy.
That wasn't my point and reguardless how you feel about Obama he too should have and could have done more. Only difference between George's Katrina and Obama's BP is Obama still has time to do the right thing.

I believe Obama is indeed trying to do the 'right thing' whatever that may be his hands are really tied with lack of options I believe. But if this had happened on Georgy Porgy's watch it would have been a grand cover up for all his buddies in BP and Halliburton, at least to the best of his ability to do so.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'm sure this will help us all to hide away in memory all the things that happened to poor old Georgy Porgy Boy.
That wasn't my point and reguardless how you feel about Obama he too should have and could have done more. Only difference between George's Katrina and Obama's BP is Obama still has time to do the right thing.


Still has time? When is the statute of limitations up on that Swoop? When the oil is in Key West? How about on the beach in Clearwater? How about South Padre??

Good god, the guy has done nothing but dither about what his role should be other than riding BP. Great, give them hell all you want, but don't tie up the US Corp in Engineers in a waiting game in putting out booms. Don't keep enforcing the Jones act, which stops foreign flagged ships from helping boom duty in domestic waters. Don't stop and tie up with studies the effects of putting up berms as Gov. Jindal wanted on the Louisana barrier beaches.

In short, He has talked a good game...but I think he is spending more time trying to figure out how to use this for his own political gain in getting cap and trade going then actually stopping the oil from coming ashore in the Gulf.

Bush was being burned at the stake 2 DAYS after Katrina....and the only reason that mess was as bad as it was because the brain dead governor of Louisana at the time, and that idiot Ray Nagin didn't make sure people LEFT New Orleans....

[dunes]

I believe Obama is indeed trying to do the 'right thing' whatever that may be his hands are really tied with lack of options I believe. But if this had happened on Georgy Porgy's watch it would have been a grand cover up for all his buddies in BP and Halliburton, at least to the best of his ability to do so.
I agree whit that this however am Very perplexed by the BP people walking around so smugly waiting for the broom to push everything under the rug.
Notice I stated the BP people and not the British. Lets not get the two confused.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I love how people want to drag Dubya and Halliburton into this. This is BP's doing..period. What happens now the oil is leaking is BP's and Obama's resposibility to deal with. Obama is dropping his ball, and BP is dropping theirs.....

[BDunnell]

I too often reply to the rhetoric in kind. (Admittedly not a good habit to get into.)

I said, in my opinion, you were better than grade school or wiki twit responses, but if you prefer the former, you got it.
I will simply take your posts as grade school blather or wiki twit type.
I apologize for thinking more highly of your usual rhetoric than you prefer.

As to how much attention you give, or do not give, que sera, sera this is a inter-net forum. As a leisure activity, opinions are considered, as such.
And you are overly sensitive.
Fini.
Bob

Could we be regaled with your academic record, please?

[BDunnell]

I love how people want to drag Dubya and Halliburton into this. This is BP's doing..period. What happens now the oil is leaking is BP's and Obama's resposibility to deal with. Obama is dropping his ball, and BP is dropping theirs.....

It is odd that many people on the right who preach personal responsibility, believe in the superiority of an unfettered private sector and dislike the interference of the state are so quick to insist that the state must become involved in a crisis which is entirely the making of a private sector company and are critical when it fails to clean up said company's mess.

[Hondo]

It is odd that many people on the right who preach personal responsibility, believe in the superiority of an unfettered private sector and dislike the interference of the state are so quick to insist that the state must become involved in a crisis which is entirely the making of a private sector company and are critical when it fails to clean up said company's mess.

Unfortunately, the arguments between government control and free market and socialism and capitalism frequently go from one extreme to another. Due mainly to the often heated debates on this forum, I have come to the conclusion there are valid arguments for each and that the various philosophies can work together. It's merely a question of balance. Nobody will get all they want. In applying your paragraph above to the BP incident, there are conditions that need to be taken into account. Firstly, the BP rig is on an area that is claimed, controlled, and the responsibility of the United States Federal Government. Secondly, by our law, the Feds have the responsibility to police and protect the environment in the area, regardless of who makes the mess. That doesn't mean BP doesn't have to try to clean it up but it does mean that the Feds have a duty and a responsibility to make every effort to contain and control the spill. Thirdly, apparently the rig met and was operated under, at the very least, the minimum operational standards required by the Feds to drill in that area.

The criticism of the Fed's handling of the BP blow out is justified to a large extent. They have environmental responsibility in an area they want to control being used by an industry that must operate under the controls, standards, and regulations of the Federal Government.

[BDunnell]

Unfortunately, the arguments between government control and free market and socialism and capitalism frequently go from one extreme to another. Due mainly to the often heated debates on this forum, I have come to the conclusion there are valid arguments for each and that the various philosophies can work together. It's merely a question of balance. Nobody will get all they want. In applying your paragraph above to the BP incident, there are conditions that need to be taken into account. Firstly, the BP rig is on an area that is claimed, controlled, and the responsibility of the United States Federal Government. Secondly, by our law, the Feds have the responsibility to police and protect the environment in the area, regardless of who makes the mess. That doesn't mean BP doesn't have to try to clean it up but it does mean that the Feds have a duty and a responsibility to make every effort to contain and control the spill. Thirdly, apparently the rig met and was operated under, at the very least, the minimum operational standards required by the Feds to drill in that area.

The criticism of the Fed's handling of the BP blow out is justified to a large extent. They have environmental responsibility in an area they want to control being used by an industry that must operate under the controls, standards, and regulations of the Federal Government.

All very good points, and most eloquently put.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It is odd that many people on the right who preach personal responsibility, believe in the superiority of an unfettered private sector and dislike the interference of the state are so quick to insist that the state must become involved in a crisis which is entirely the making of a private sector company and are critical when it fails to clean up said company's mess.

I am going to first off say Fiero put it a little better than I did. What I am pointing out merely is that there are a lot of people wanting to blame this on Halliburton (they were involved in the consultation in the drilling of the well but advised against the BOP BP used) and Bush (just because that is the fashionable thing to do).

Ben, I know I may not always make this as clear as I should, but I can also say a number of times I have preached government is there to regulate and make sure the law is followed. Companies should be personally responsbile, but it is government that has to protect the public. Where I take issue with this situation is the sheer fact that now the oil is spilling, Obama and his various minions have at times gotten in the way of protecting the shore from damage, and have more or less let BP muck about without any firm idea of what they are doing.

In short, it is a mess...and there is a lot of blame to go around on this one. No easy or simple solutions for sure, but the best thing the government can do is cut the red tape....

[Hondo]

This is a good, and based upon experience, I'd say accurate initial account of the problems on the rig. I might also note this is an accurate portrayal of how the heavy industry still in the US has been operating for the last 12 years. Maintenance is performed on items that are convenient to work on or may be taken off line for short periods of time without affecting production. Maintenance on items that directly affect production simply isn't done. Run it until it breaks, jump in and fix it or jerry rig it to run awhile longer, and roll. Safety is usually pretty good if it can be addressed at the local level without corporate getting involved. Like I've said in earlier posts, if you think you know how these things run and really believe that safety is the number 1 priority all the time you're actually clueless and don't know sh!t. You have to spend 3-4 years in the field on your tools to understand how the game is played. I'd bet I could even guess the brand names of the equipment that gave them the most trouble. Those items have bad reps in field use. Why are they used? Because they work real good in static demonstrations and in the lab. They meet the minimum requirements. They are high tech and engineers love them them so in they go.

Round up the usual suspects. The production guys ignored the warnings of the guys in the field doing the work and something went boom. Nothing new.

[Hondo]

I forgot the link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/22/us/22transocean.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

[Mark in Oshawa]

This is a good, and based upon experience, I'd say accurate initial account of the problems on the rig. I might also note this is an accurate portrayal of how the heavy industry still in the US has been operating for the last 12 years. Maintenance is performed on items that are convenient to work on or may be taken off line for short periods of time without affecting production. Maintenance on items that directly affect production simply isn't done. Run it until it breaks, jump in and fix it or jerry rig it to run awhile longer, and roll. Safety is usually pretty good if it can be addressed at the local level without corporate getting involved. Like I've said in earlier posts, if you think you know how these things run and really believe that safety is the number 1 priority all the time you're actually clueless and don't know sh!t. You have to spend 3-4 years in the field on your tools to understand how the game is played. I'd bet I could even guess the brand names of the equipment that gave them the most trouble. Those items have bad reps in field use. Why are they used? Because they work real good in static demonstrations and in the lab. They meet the minimum requirements. They are high tech and engineers love them them so in they go.

Round up the usual suspects. The production guys ignored the warnings of the guys in the field doing the work and something went boom. Nothing new.

Oh so true Sir...oh so true. The guys on the ground always have an idea on what works in reality, but the higherups love the sexy, shiny solutions where someone has conned them into thinking one piece of kit is the solution...whereas the guys who work with it know it is a POS in the field.

You see this in a number of industries, and my father always was amazed when he was at GM on how many times engineers would come forward with an idea for some rejigging of a section of the line and it was up to tool and die and maintenance guys to try to implement this stupid idea because they had to prove it DIDN'T work....

Not to say engineers and some people are not brilliant, but in the case of the BP disaster in the gulf, It seems a lot of people likely were ignored who knew better....

[555-04Q2]

I love how people want to drag Dubya and Halliburton into this. This is BP's doing..period. What happens now the oil is leaking is BP's and Obama's resposibility to deal with. Obama is dropping his ball, and BP is dropping theirs.....

I don't see how Obama is responsible. BP is the sole entity responsible.

[race aficionado]

5...4....3....2....1....

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't see how Obama is responsible. BP is the sole entity responsible.
It isn't Obama's fault the rig blew up. It isn't Obama's fault it took BP almost 4 months to figure a way to cap it. IT IS Obama however who has put up red tape and has had federal agenicies getting in the way of the state of Louisana taking steps to protect their shore, and Obama I think will use this incident politically to suit his own goals, not necessarily what is best for the USA.