I wonder if Robin is still celebrating????

[Wilf]

Yes, TG is gone and the league is doing well - we've lost two ovals and gained three twisties; now that is momentum.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes, TG is gone and the league is doing well - we've lost two ovals and gained three twisties; now that is momentum.
I don't think you really read Robin. He has never once said dump ovals. Also, the two you lost, were losing money, and losing fans...and were dull...so if you are going to whine about the loss of ovals, at least show me a decent race on an oval that is being cut, because the harsh reality of it is, Richmond was a snore, and no one was going, and Nashville was papering the house...

[Wilf]

I don't think you really read Robin. He has never once said dump ovals. Also, the two you lost, were losing money, and losing fans...and were dull...so if you are going to whine about the loss of ovals, at least show me a decent race on an oval that is being cut, because the harsh reality of it is, Richmond was a snore, and no one was going, and Nashville was papering the house...

Richmond's attendance was growing each year and because the race was a snorfest they changed the aerodynamic rules which resulted in the race of the year at Kentucky. The promoters decided it wasn't a smart decision to pay IndyCar twice what Long Beach had to pay so there goes another oval partner. Kansas and Chicagoland are in limbo which could drop the oval count to six while the twistie count grows to 10. How is that moving to a 50/50 schedule?

Don't get me wrong, I'm excited that they are visiting Road America, but . . .

[anthonyvop]

robin won't be happy until they are running front engine roadsters and he gets to download free porn in the media center.

[DanicaFan]

Richmond and Milwaukee were great tracks to go to. I dont see how you can say they werent.

Losing ovals to be honest with me, sucks. I agree, pretty soon it will be 60% road courses, 40% ovals or even 70% road courses. So they may have to eliminate the oval championship trophy before to long..lol :D

The all road/street course series has been done here before, it was called champcar, it failed, so we dont need to go back down that path.

IndyCar, whether Bernard wants to admit it or not, was founded on ovals and should stay primarily on ovals. I personally am very skeptical of this new CEO, he wants to change everything just for the sake of change. Change isnt always good.

[Chamoo]

I personally am very skeptical of this new owner, he wants to change everything just for the sake of change. Change isnt always good.

I wasn't aware that the IRL was sold recently?

[DanicaFan]

I wasn't aware that the IRL was sold recently?

There, I changed it to CEO, you have to be so critical.. ;)

[harvick#1]

sorry but when has Richmond been a good race, Milwaukee yes, but Richmond has to be one of the worst tracks designed for a Indycar. for Nascar is a great track, but the speed and downforce an IRL car has, its all single file nonsense

[Dr. Krogshöj]

I wasn't and IndyCar fan before the mergification but I enjoyed the 2008 race at Richmond. The drivers had to work hard to negotiate the track and though there weren't quites as many passes as on the 1.5-milers, there were quite a few overtaking manouvres, each of them more meaningful than those on the cookie cutters. The 2009 race was a snorefest, but not more than other races at that time of the year. That said, if the promoter doesn't want an event, there is little the sanctioning body can do.

The Milwaukee Mile, IMHO, the best suited oval track in the USA for open wheel racecars other than Indy. It provides great racing, it's got more tradition than any other tracks. It is a must to return there. But then again, you can hardly fault the IRL for the failure of the promoters.

What you can fault them for, is the refusal of the 5-track package offer from SMI that included Kentucky, Texas, Sonoma, Las Vegas and New Hampshire. I'm sure Randy Bernard would have accepted it as there are rumors that he is keen on LVMS and NHMS.

[usgrandprix]

Richmond, Milwaukee, Phoenix, Nazareth, Gateway, old, old Homestead...all white knuckle, up on the wheel racing. Blink and you're off the lead lap.

New Homestead, Kansas, Chicago, Texas. Not my cup of tea. Keep your eye on the fuel gauge.

One of the worst casualties of the war was the notion that not all ovals are the same. Talk about irony.

I realize there were not people at those tracks and I know there's no room for them for today's fan, but I resent being told they were boring.

I remember watching Helio obliterate the field at Gateway with no electronics and this is back when the league had TC. Drove it like he stole it.

[DBell]

Don't get me wrong, I'm excited that they are visiting Road America, but . . .


Huh? Did I miss something? I would love for this to be true, but I haven't seen any announcement that Road America is on the schedule for next year.

[Lousada]

Huh? Did I miss something? I would love for this to be true, but I haven't seen any announcement that Road America is on the schedule for next year.

Terry Angstadt or whoever is in charge of the schedule is up to Wisconsin to discuss with Road America officials. Although in some other news they said that Road America and also Milwaukee would most probably not be on the schedule before 2012...

[Mark in Oshawa]

The Fact is Milwaukee's promoters never paid the IRL or NASCAR for their races there a year or so ago. The IRL didn't reject Milwaukee, they just cannot afford to race for free. Furthermore, the idiots running the fairgrounds have stuck their noses into that mess.

If ovals are not on the IRL sched, that is a shame, but everything isn't what it seems. Also, for anyone to say Richmond was worth it attendance wise wasn't really looking at the acres of empty grandstands. It may have had more people, but it wasn't a successful event. Texas is successful. Chicagoland or Kansas will have to draw on their on merits. The point is, those who want the IRL to stay with an oval component also have to realize you don't want to race before empty grandstands. Sponsors want to put money into races where it appears there are fans. Sponsors don't want to tune in to the race they are helping bring to the public, and realizing the public has not shown up.

Oval racing is part of the history of the IRL, but the fans have to show up and support the events. People can knock street races all they like, artistically they are not always great races, BUT if 70000 people pay good money at the site to watch them, then you have to look at that seriously and understand they have a product there. You may not like it, but people are PAYING THEIR DOLLARS TO WATCH. If 20000 are sitting in the stands at Kansas because they don't HAVE To be forced to take IRL tickets to get their NASCAR tickets, then you are getting 20000 hardcore fans to be sure, but it doesn't look good and isn't making money for anyone.

The fact is, I want ovals to be part of the IRL, but if they are all cookie cutter foot to the floor tracks, then you might as well give up. Flat ovals put on the best show for this type of race car. New Hampshire, Phoenix, Gateway and Milwaukee should be the types of tracks kept around...

[PA Rick]

robin won't be happy until they are running front engine roadsters and he gets to download free porn in the media center.

If that was true he would be covering the USAC Silver Crown series exclusively.

[anthonyvop]

If that was true he would be covering the USAC Silver Crown series exclusively.

Nah. He thinks he is too cool for that. Plus there aren't enough "exclusives" for him to steal from other people in that series.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Nah. He thinks he is too cool for that. Plus there aren't enough "exclusives" for him to steal from other people in that series.
Yer just mad because Robin is sort of a household name and you aren't not?? lol

[anthonyvop]

Yer just mad because Robin is sort of a household name and you aren't not?? lol


One day I'll tell you how we planted false info for Robin to steal and claim as his own.

BTW I never wanted to be a household name like Robin. I am more content not being fired from every job I had like Robin.

[Scotty G.]

1. Also, for anyone to say Richmond was worth it attendance wise wasn't really looking at the acres of empty grandstands.

2. Sponsors want to put money into races where it appears there are fans.


1. Richmond had more fans then Brazil, St. Pete or Edmonton. But its all about "perception" in the Indy Car world, isn't it? Plus you can flat out lie about attendance at street parties and nobody actually knows. The FACT is, that a place like St. Pete only has about 25,000 folks showing up for the race, but that is considered "good" because 40,000 (at a 100,000 seat facility) is "bad". OK. :rolleyes:

2. The key word being "appears". Too bad there are so few sponsors putting money into anything Indy Car related. Maybe its because of a sorry ass racing product, helped by numerous lame ass "races" like St. Pete, Long Beach, and now Baltimore.

[anthonyvop]

1. Richmond had more fans then Brazil, St. Pete or Edmonton. But its all about "perception" in the Indy Car world, isn't it? Plus you can flat out lie about attendance at street parties and nobody actually knows. The FACT is, that a place like St. Pete only has about 25,000 folks showing up for the race, but that is considered "good" because 40,000 (at a 100,000 seat facility) is "bad". OK. :rolleyes:



Demographics!!!

For some companies 25k at St. Pete are worth more than 40K at Richmond.

[Mark in Oshawa]

One day I'll tell you how we planted false info for Robin to steal and claim as his own.

BTW I never wanted to be a household name like Robin. I am more content not being fired from every job I had like Robin.

Tell us now, and Robin is a gossip columnist for the sport. They do what they do. AS for you not wanting to be a household name, you should. It pays better.

As for Robin being fired, Well he works a lot for a guy without a job.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

1. Richmond had more fans then Brazil, St. Pete or Edmonton. But its all about "perception" in the Indy Car world, isn't it? Plus you can flat out lie about attendance at street parties and nobody actually knows. The FACT is, that a place like St. Pete only has about 25,000 folks showing up for the race, but that is considered "good" because 40,000 (at a 100,000 seat facility) is "bad". OK. :rolleyes:

2. The key word being "appears". Too bad there are so few sponsors putting money into anything Indy Car related. Maybe its because of a sorry ass racing product, helped by numerous lame ass "races" like St. Pete, Long Beach, and now Baltimore.

Scotty, I watched Sao Paolo. Those stands in the front stretch were filled, and no one left when the downpour hit either. You can quibble about how people count, I wont deny that some numbers are inflated, but I have been to about 20 races in Toronto, and they didn't have to lie about the number of people there. You couldn't move for the people, and I know what the price of seats and tickets were. IF they were not making money off all those races, than they were idiots.

Appears is a key word. If I am watching an IRL race and I see the acres of empty benches at some ovals, Am I going to buy some guy telling me how many people watch the races live? Richmond drew what? 40000? Not bad, maybe the race should stay, but if THAT is the case, why is the people in Richmond not mad as hell? Why haven't I read of all the upset race fans who loved this race? Where is the outrage? Were those tickets part of a package you got to get some good seats for NASCAR? Chicagoland and Kansas pretty much forced the IRL tickets on NASCAR fans at gunpoint. If you wanted the NASCAR tickets, you had to buy the IRL ones as well. They have now stopped doing that, and you will see where the real support is for the IRL at those venues.

The fact is, the ovals have not been roaring successes once you leave Texas and Indy. Even at the 500, I saw a lot of empty grandstand on the pitside. I remember seeing 500's for years on TV and never seeing those stands empty. NEVER. Ovals have to be economically viable, or the series is screwed. I don't want to see them gone bud, but you have to get this attitude out of your head that the road/street races are killing this series. They may be the only way you have a 17 race schedule. If we went only to ovals that could draw a crowd that allows the promotors to turn a profit, we might have a 4 race series.

The fact is some road/street courses can be dull, and some ovals can be dull. The car and the way the series is technically constructed chassis and engine wise is the problem. You create a better racing product on track, and people will come back to watch.

You would take 40000 people sitting in the stands at Richmond watching no one pass each other over 100000 tickets sold for the weekend at Baltimore? If you say yes, then you clearly are not in business are you? This sport needs people at the track, people watching on TV and people caring. Don't care where they are from or where they like to watch, we just need em there.

[Scotty G.]

Believe me, Robin is less then thrilled with the sport right now.

If you want to know what steams Robin the most, I'll give you these topics:

1. Embarrassingly low numbers of American drivers (easily #1 on his list)
2. Brian Barnhart
3. Television (the ratings, the deal with Versus and the broadcasts on ABC)



Robin is feeling better about a few things (Bernard being #1 on that list), but he knows this thing has a VERY long way to go to even get its head above water.

And the TV ratings for the Indy 500 were a real kick in the gut for many at IMS and in the series. That really put a damper on a lot of the perceived "momentum" some people thought they had. They needed to at least hold their ground (because sponsors are having to be sold for 2011 right now and Indy is the only race that matters to them) and instead, they took another step down the hill. And the big drop in ratings in Indianapolis itself was very hurtful.

Its likely going to be another very tough and very ugly summer for the sport.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Believe me, Robin is less then thrilled with the sport right now.

If you want to know what steams Robin the most, I'll give you these topics:

1. Embarrassingly low numbers of American drivers (easily #1 on his list)
2. Brian Barnhart
3. Television (the ratings, the deal with Versus and the broadcasts on ABC)



Robin is feeling better about a few things (Bernard being #1 on that list), but he knows this thing has a VERY long way to go to even get its head above water.

And the TV ratings for the Indy 500 were a real kick in the gut for many at IMS and in the series. That really put a damper on a lot of the perceived "momentum" some people thought they had. They needed to at least hold their ground (because sponsors are having to be sold for 2011 right now and Indy is the only race that matters to them) and instead, they took another step down the hill. And the big drop in ratings in Indianapolis itself was very hurtful.
Its likely going to be another very tough and very ugly summer for the sport.

I also have listened to Robin over the years and I don't disagree with a lot of what he thinks, but I suspect he knows that the TV doesn't come up if the on track racing doesn't improve. THAT is priorty one for me. If they do that, then it becomes more exciting and more in doubt for the audience at home, and is easier to build drama. When you do that, you create hero's and interest. THAT keeps fans, and keeps your audience share. Dull races with very little drama (the great unwashed didn't understand the fuel mileage drama at the end, they never do) make for hard tv.

At some point, this product better change in a hurry, or it wont matter if you had 33 Americans in the field. People want drama, and they want excitement.

AS for it being a tough year, it was going to be anyhow. This challenge is going to make or break Randy Bernard, but as you pointed out, Robin thinks this guy is doing things the right way, and I think most of us when pressed cant fault him for his efforts really so far either...

[Wilf]

I also have listened to Robin over the years and I don't disagree with a lot of what he thinks, but I suspect he knows that the TV doesn't come up if the on track racing doesn't improve. THAT is priority one for me. If they do that, then it becomes more exciting and more in doubt for the audience at home, and is easier to build drama. When you do that, you create hero's and interest. THAT keeps fans, and keeps your audience share. Dull races with very little drama (the great unwashed didn't understand the fuel mileage drama at the end, they never do) make for hard tv.

At some point, this product better change in a hurry, or it wont matter if you had 33 Americans in the field. People want drama, and they want excitement.

AS for it being a tough year, it was going to be anyhow. This challenge is going to make or break Randy Bernard, but as you pointed out, Robin thinks this guy is doing things the right way, and I think most of us when pressed cant fault him for his efforts really so far either...

We have to keep things in perspective:
The ratings for the 500 were down this year. The rating for the Coca Cola 600 were down more and they didn't beat the ratings for the Indianapolis 500 for the first time in several years. That is a win.

Chip Ganassi made a great point in the interview room after his driver won the 500: "I don't understand why you guys don't do a better job of explaining that to the fans. Everybody is like, We don't like fuel races. There is no way to stop fuel races no matter what you do. There is always going to be that case where there is a yellow right before exact amount of laps that you need to get fuel to finish. Everybody keeps trying to put a switch in, rake a switch out, have push to pass, all this stuff. It doesn't mean anything. There is always going to be a fuel race, but there always that incident where there can be guys saving fuel to get to the finish. It's just that simple." You take your chance given the circumstances in which you find yourself. We like to win on speed, but when you don't have the speed you have to find another solution and fuel mileage is the next best way. Today, we had speed and mileage and I'm sure some will complain."

I think Randy Bernard has been a breath of fresh air for IndyCar but he needs to remember you can't get to 50/50 by adding road courses. As long as the Baltimore track is on par with Sao Paulo, great. But a street circuit which does not have a decent straight or two leading to a passing zone is just putting on a demonstration, not a race.

They've announced the new engine formula and that makes me believe the chassis will be postponed until at least until 2013. That is going to get some folks upset, but the owners were very happy to hear the engine info.

My reference to Robin being happy is because he has become Randy's biggest cheerleader and unless IndyCar decides to add two more of Bruton's tracks when they drop the two ISC tracks as Robin eluded, the balance would be very lopsided at 10 and 6.

[Mark in Oshawa]

We have to keep things in perspective:
The ratings for the 500 were down this year. The rating for the Coca Cola 600 were down more and they didn't beat the ratings for the Indianapolis 500 for the first time in several years. That is a win.

Chip Ganassi made a great point in the interview room after his driver won the 500: "I don't understand why you guys don't do a better job of explaining that to the fans. Everybody is like, We don't like fuel races. There is no way to stop fuel races no matter what you do. There is always going to be that case where there is a yellow right before exact amount of laps that you need to get fuel to finish. Everybody keeps trying to put a switch in, rake a switch out, have push to pass, all this stuff. It doesn't mean anything. There is always going to be a fuel race, but there always that incident where there can be guys saving fuel to get to the finish. It's just that simple." You take your chance given the circumstances in which you find yourself. We like to win on speed, but when you don't have the speed you have to find another solution and fuel mileage is the next best way. Today, we had speed and mileage and I'm sure some will complain."

I think Randy Bernard has been a breath of fresh air for IndyCar but he needs to remember you can't get to 50/50 by adding road courses. As long as the Baltimore track is on par with Sao Paulo, great. But a street circuit which does not have a decent straight or two leading to a passing zone is just putting on a demonstration, not a race.

They've announced the new engine formula and that makes me believe the chassis will be postponed until at least until 2013. That is going to get some folks upset, but the owners were very happy to hear the engine info.

My reference to Robin being happy is because he has become Randy's biggest cheerleader and unless IndyCar decides to add two more of Bruton's tracks when they drop the two ISC tracks as Robin eluded, the balance would be very lopsided at 10 and 6.

Well Wilf I loved what Chip had to say too. I like the news about the engines....and I like the idea of opening up the chassis and I think an intermediate step could be taken in the short term by allowing some minor mods to be made to the cars.

AS for the dropping of the ISC tracks, they may be dropping the IRL and NOT the other way around. AS for going to Bruton's tracks, you go to places you are wanted. It really is that simple on that score.

AS for losing ovals...well........as I explained before, at some point the fans of oval track OW racing HAVE to show up. It doesn't do any good to run Richmond and have acres of empty stands on your broadcast. What message does THAT send the sponsors or would be sponsors? NASCAR is fighting to hang tough during this recession but they are doing it from a position of strength. The IRL cannot afford to have an oval with 150000 seats and 40000 people scattered around. They cannot afford to have 25000 show up at Chicagoland or Kansas either.

You want to court big time sponsors and big time attention, the series has to try to look it. IT isn't happening right now, and some say they are dead man walking, but I like to think Robin, like me likes what Randy Bernard is doing and what people are saying inside the sport about the incremental changes.

AS for Baltimore, well, I hope someone designs a decent track, because if you can have 65000 to 80000 watching the race on race day, in the middle of a great city, THAT isn't a bad thing to see on TV...but that track and racing has to match the enthusiasm..

That is why I think CCWS slowly drowned....they were creating exhibitions and not races...

[anthonyvop]

The rating for the Coca Cola 600 were down more and they didn't beat the ratings for the Indianapolis 500 for the first time in several years.
It did?

Could have fooled me. But then again I believe a 4.0 beats a 3.6.....silly me.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It did?

Could have fooled me. But then again I believe a 4.0 beats a 3.6.....silly me.

Maybe he was reading the over nights? I ignored that....we all know the ratings sucked but that is fine. I would expect NASCAR's audience to be more likely to watch at night than sit indoors on a Sunday afternoon.

You want my opinion? Put the 500 under lights.....

[anthonyvop]

You want my opinion? Put the 500 under lights.....

Duck!!!!

Those "Indy is the greatest thing since the Orgasm" people can get pretty nasty.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Duck!!!!

Those "Indy is the greatest thing since the Orgasm" people can get pretty nasty.


Put the 500 under lights on the Saturday of Memorial Day weekend....THAT is the kind of radical change I would go for.

[anthonyvop]

Put the 500 under lights on the Saturday of Memorial Day weekend....THAT is the kind of radical change I would go for.

Not a bad idea....i would go even farther with a radical change.

[Scotty G.]

Put the 500 under lights on the Saturday of Memorial Day weekend....THAT is the kind of radical change I would go for.


1. The ratings would go in the tank even more.

2. No way in hell IMS has the money to light 2.5 miles worth of track. They are in supreme MONEY SAVER mode right now. Its why the track looked so dirty this year (there was trash everywhere after Pole Day on Sunday; which NEVER used to happen). There were glitches in the public address. Fewer days of practice saves IMS money (but doesn't save the teams any). The IMS staff is now bare-bones, compared to last year at this time. The Indy 500 program was made cheaply this year and was a lot thinner then usual.


And if you continue to trot out just a handful of American drivers and this sport continues to be more and more "un American", its not going to matter what they do or try. People aren't going to watch.

[Marbles]

Put the 500 under lights on the Saturday of Memorial Day weekend....THAT is the kind of radical change I would go for.

I still can't wrap my head around Saturday night racing or for that matter, Saturday night football. I guess I'm the wrong demographic but ever since my mid-twenties Saturday nights is usually tied up with dinner and\or movies out or movies in or some combination there of to keep all happy. It's a lot easier to steal a few hours on a Sunday afternoon.

Indy is for Sunday @ 11:00 a.m. preferably. Not change for the sake of change.

[Mark in Oshawa]

1. The ratings would go in the tank even more.

2. No way in hell IMS has the money to light 2.5 miles worth of track. They are in supreme MONEY SAVER mode right now. Its why the track looked so dirty this year (there was trash everywhere after Pole Day on Sunday; which NEVER used to happen). There were glitches in the public address. Fewer days of practice saves IMS money (but doesn't save the teams any). The IMS staff is now bare-bones, compared to last year at this time. The Indy 500 program was made cheaply this year and was a lot thinner then usual.


And if you continue to trot out just a handful of American drivers and this sport continues to be more and more "un American", its not going to matter what they do or try. People aren't going to watch.

So Americans don't really want to watch the best drivers then, they just want to watch Americans? I think Scott you have lost it....

As for your assertion the IMS is in money save mode, yes, I can agree there, they likely wouldn't light the track. That said, to shake up the lethargy and really think outside the box, it is an option. People seem to forget, no one WANTS to sit inside all day watching racing on a beautiful weekend. Put on a Saturday night and people will tune in because they are in from being out all day, and THAT will factor in. I also think Saturday night gives you no competition whatsoever from NASCAR. They are the 800 lb gorilla competing for race fans. ON Sunday, watching racing from Noon to 11pm means people might pick and choose. Race on Saturday, you get them that first night and they are not thinking about the race coming up.

[Bob Riebe]

So Americans don't really want to watch the best drivers then, they just want to watch Americans? I think Scott you have lost it....

As for your assertion the IMS is in money save mode, yes, I can agree there, they likely wouldn't light the track. That said, to shake up the lethargy and really think outside the box, it is an option. People seem to forget, no one WANTS to sit inside all day watching racing on a beautiful weekend. Put on a Saturday night and people will tune in because they are in from being out all day, and THAT will factor in. I also think Saturday night gives you no competition whatsoever from NASCAR. They are the 800 lb gorilla competing for race fans. ON Sunday, watching racing from Noon to 11pm means people might pick and choose. Race on Saturday, you get them that first night and they are not thinking about the race coming up.
Put the race on at night and it would be a disaster.
Many people have to drive a long ways after the race and don not want to get home at five A.M.
I used to drive home from Road America every race, and getting home at one A.M. and going to work the next day, sucks.

Night racing is a gimmick (excluding short-track events where it can control dust, the fair grandstand is not available till then, or back when they had huge events and the final simply came about at twilight, or there abouts) with few good reason, other than the above.

I am a big baseball fan, and have no love for night games.
There are many things to do in the evening that do not fit well in moring to after-noon; racing is not one or them.

[anthonyvop]

There are many things to do in the evening that do not fit well in moring to after-noon; racing is not one or them.

I'll make sure that LeMans, Sebring, Singapore and pretty much all short tracks across the US get your message.

[Bob Riebe]

I'll make sure that LeMans, Sebring, Singapore and pretty much all short tracks across the US get your message.
Twelve or 24 hr. races are not in the same category as short distance races held
held at night.
If you are going to make an analogy try to keep-up with the subject

What used to, or still does, make very long time based races interesting was their unique concept.
Their are other 24 hr. races, Nelson Ledges had/has one, as do other triacks in other countries.
Only Daytona, due to Bill France's hard-nosed skill, ever became more than a regional item.
Sebring, even though it has been around a long time, never came close to the national new story Daytona was.
It has it own unique charm, party-on!
day
You forgot the Paul Revere race at Daytona. I do not remember it ever becoming anything special, and it was held at night.

[anthonyvop]

Sebring, even though it has been around a long time, never came close to the national new story Daytona was.


the 12 hours of Sebring is the single most important race in North America.

Who says? The manufacturers do.

When you have a company like Peugeot spending millions to race there when they don't even sell cars here it speaks volumes.

BTW I didn't miss how you ignored the Singapore GP!

[NickFalzone]

Put the race on at night and it would be a disaster.
Many people have to drive a long ways after the race and don not want to get home at five A.M.
I used to drive home from Road America every race, and getting home at one A.M. and going to work the next day, sucks.

Night racing is a gimmick (excluding short-track events where it can control dust, the fair grandstand is not available till then, or back when they had huge events and the final simply came about at twilight, or there abouts) with few good reason, other than the above.

I am a big baseball fan, and have no love for night games.
There are many things to do in the evening that do not fit well in moring to after-noon; racing is not one or them.

Night racing has become more popular because At-Track attendance is no longer king, TV ratings are. If IMS had the choice of 50k less attendees and another point or two in the ratings, my gut tells me they would definitely choose the latter. Attendance is important, but selling tv commercials for ABC is more so. A Saturday night 500 race may very well have fewer in attendance, but better TV ratings.

[Bob Riebe]

Night racing has become more popular because At-Track attendance is no longer king, TV ratings are. If IMS had the choice of 50k less attendees and another point or two in the ratings, my gut tells me they would definitely choose the latter. Attendance is important, but selling tv commercials for ABC is more so. A Saturday night 500 race may very well have fewer in attendance, but better TV ratings.
If the IRL or Indy is dependant on TV, it deserves to die.

As I wrote in a different thread; the series that CART turned into, was kicked out of Road America for lack of spectators.
It was allowed back on probation, that if enough boots were not on the ground, they would be kicked out again.
Of course CCW went belly-up anyway, but to race tracks spectators are every thing.

I find saying the Indianapolis 500 is dependent on TV ratings to a bit of a stretch, at best.
Remember NASCAR has its own brown-nosing network, the IRL does not.

[Bob Riebe]

the 12 hours of Sebring is the single most important race in North America.

Who says? The manufacturers do.

When you have a company like Peugeot spending millions to race there when they don't even sell cars here it speaks volumes.

BTW I didn't miss how you ignored the Singapore GP!
The Singapore race is important to those in Singapore. Not hard to ignore.
What TV rating did it have in the U.S., if nightime TV rating are so important.

Even in the hay-days, Sebring was the little brother to Daytona.
Now as IMSA brown-noses the ACO, it is simply a test for LeMans, Peugot spends millions to race THERE, otherwise Peugot would be contesting the whole 2010 season, which they are not.

Now, except for road racing aficionados, it is barely on the racing map, of course that can be said about road-racing as a whole in the U.S.
It is great it still exists, but right now, the future of the IMSA is not guaranteed.

[anthonyvop]

If the IRL or Indy is dependant on TV, it deserves to die.



You have that wrong. It is the other way around. TV is much more important than attendance to the success of the ICS.

[anthonyvop]

The Singapore race is important to those in Singapore. Not hard to ignore.
What TV rating did it have in the U.S., if nightime TV rating are so important.

Actually the Singapore GP is more important to the rest of the world than any ICS race including the Indy500.


Even in the hay-days, Sebring was the little brother to Daytona.
Sebring was never a little brother to Daytono and today the 24hrs of Daytona isn't even a blip on the radar screen


Now as IMSA brown-noses the ACO, it is simply a test for LeMans, Peugot spends millions to race THERE, otherwise Peugot would be contesting the whole 2010 season, which they are not.
Peugeot races in Sebring because it is a significant event worldwide. They along with other manufacturers realize it. Audi, Jaguar, Aston-Martin, Mazda, Porsche and Chevrolet would rather spend their motorsports marketing money on the 12 hours of Sebring than on the ICS,


Now, except for road racing aficionados, it is barely on the racing map, of course that can be said about road-racing as a whole in the U.S.
It is great it still exists, but right now, the future of the IMSA is not guaranteed.
You have been reading that ISC shill Morphy the bear too much. The ALMS is doing quite well. It is Summertime so now we all get to hear his rumor about how the ALMS is up for sale and the G/A is going to buy it.

[Bob Riebe]

You have that wrong. It is the other way around. TV is much more important than attendance to the success of the ICS.
How?

Give specifics.

If tracks do not get spectators, tracks shut-down.
Or is this because racing will just be, let's pretend video games with no real cars, so who needs tracks?

[Bob Riebe]

[quote="anthonyvop"]Actually the Singapore GP is more important to the rest of the world than any ICS race including the Indy500.

Based on what proof?
Monaco, maybe, Singapore is just another race, in another spec. formula series.


Sebring was never a little brother to Daytono and today the 24hrs of Daytona isn't even a blip on the radar screen
In your opinion

Peugeot races in Sebring because it is a significant event worldwide. They along with other manufacturers realize it. Audi, Jaguar, Aston-Martin, Mazda, Porsche and Chevrolet would rather spend their motorsports marketing money on the 12 hours of Sebring than on the ICS, So important Audi, who does sell cars in the U.S. skipped it.
Gee, Daytona has large internationally respected sponsor, Sebring does not.
While the cars at Daytona are turtles, it draws an international sponsor and Sebring is not even important to Audi.
Sebring must be really, really important.
Daytona is a sad image compared to what it once was, but Sebring is still standing in its shadow.

You have been reading that ISC shill Morphy the bear too much. The ALMS is doing quite well. It is Summertime so now we all get to hear his rumor about how the ALMS is up for sale and the G/A is going to buy it.I know of Murphy the Bear but have never read it.
GARRA or Grand Am is the France family, NASCAR keeps the France family in dollars, NASCAR is leaking badly, the France family is not buying anything as they are too busy trying to plug the leaks in the NASCAR.

[slorydn1]

Actually, as a fan of many different racing series, I like the Memorial Day weekend schedule pretty much as it is now ( although pushing Indy back to its earlier start time would be great, thank you)

That weekend Saturday and Monday are for the cookouts and what ever else
"normal" people (like my wife) may have planned.

Sunday is for wall to wall racing. An early morning F1 race, followed by the Indy 500, then the Coke 600-for me that Sunday is racing heaven.

IF Indy were to light the track, when would they hold the race?

Remember-TV wise (for the season, not just 1 race) Indy Car is #3 on the "depth chart" behind both Nascar Sprint Cup and Nationwide Series'. And ESPN/ABC televises the Nationwide Series race Saturday night in Charlotte, so are they going to want to compete with themselves? May be the 500 on ABC and Nationwide on ESPN2? That's not gonna happen.

Sunday night you lose the ABC/ESPN conflict, but does Indy REALLY want to go head to head with the 600? That's not gonna happen, either.

That leaves Friday night and Monday night, and neither will work (very well) as most of the trackside fans will have to work Friday so thats an extra vacation day they may or may not get from their bosses to travel to Indy, and Monday night leaves people with the pain of having to get home in time to get to work Tuesday morning. Oh, and what if it rains Monday night? That's a horror I'd rather not even think about.

[anthonyvop]

Actually the Singapore GP is more important to the rest of the world than any ICS race including the Indy500.

Based on what proof?
Monaco, maybe, Singapore is just another race, in another spec. formula series.


Sebring was never a little brother to Daytono and today the 24hrs of Daytona isn't even a blip on the radar screen
In your opinion

Peugeot races in Sebring because it is a significant event worldwide. They along with other manufacturers realize it. Audi, Jaguar, Aston-Martin, Mazda, Porsche and Chevrolet would rather spend their motorsports marketing money on the 12 hours of Sebring than on the ICS, So important Audi, who does sell cars in the U.S. skipped it.
Gee, Daytona has large internationally respected sponsor, Sebring does not.
While the cars at Daytona are turtles, it draws an international sponsor and Sebring is not even important to Audi.
Sebring must be really, really important.
Daytona is a sad image compared to what it once was, but Sebring is still standing in its shadow.

You have been reading that ISC shill Morphy the bear too much. The ALMS is doing quite well. It is Summertime so now we all get to hear his rumor about how the ALMS is up for sale and the G/A is going to buy it.I know of Murphy the Bear but have never read it.
GARRA or Grand Am is the France family, NASCAR keeps the France family in dollars, NASCAR is leaking badly, the France family is not buying anything as they are too busy trying to plug the leaks in the NASCAR.

F-1 averages a TV viewership of over 40 million per race...including Singapore. So the Singapore GP has more viewers than the entire ICS season.

G/A's "internationally respected sponsor" is leaving after this year. Yep. You can kiss Rolex goodbye.

Sebring is sponsored by one of the World's largest Corporations.....Exxon via Mobile-1. Actually they have 2 major sponsors. The Official name is the Mobil 1 12 Hours of Sebring presented By Fresh From Florida.

[Bob Riebe]

F-1 averages a TV viewership of over 40 million per race...including Singapore. So the Singapore GP has more viewers than the entire ICS season.

In the U.S.?

[anthonyvop]

How?

Give specifics.

If tracks do not get spectators, tracks shut-down.



Are we talking Indy Car or tracks? The success of a track is mutually exclusive to the Success of Indy Car.

The Success of Indy Car is totally dependent on sponsorship. No sponsorship no racing. Major sponsors are interested in marketing the investment through exposure.
That exposure is generated primarily through TV followed by other forms of media(Internet, Press..ect).

Do you think that any of the few team sponsors are paying the 4-5 Million dollars to have their car in front of an average of 35K fans?

Even for tracks their main source of income is sponsorship. Haven't you noticed that even though NASCAR attendance is down none of the tracks seem to be complaining?

Look at F-1. Nobody can argue that F-1 isn't by far the most successful racing series on the planet.
Bernie once said that they could hold an F-1 event and still make the same amount of money just from TV. Nobody with any knowledge of the biz has refuted that statement.

[anthonyvop]

In the U.S.?

Does it matter?

Have you noticed that there are more major US corporations sponsoring F-1 than in Indy Cars?

[Bob Riebe]

Does it matter?

Have you noticed that there are more major US corporations sponsoring F-1 than in Indy Cars?
I noticed that there is no U.S. F-1 and vast majority of racing fans don't care.

Of course soccer probably has more fans than baseball and football combined but then in the U.S. soccer has the importance of a zit on a gnat's butt.

I have not seen any, net threads on Singapore, but there one finds many on the Indianapolis 500, and even the IRL, whilst not even looking for them.

The Dakar Rally is known better in the U.S. than any race in Singapore, or for that matter so is a race in Macau.

If you like it good for you.

[Bob Riebe]

Are we talking Indy Car or tracks? The success of a track is mutually exclusive to the Success of Indy Car.

The Success of Indy Car is totally dependent on sponsorship. No sponsorship no racing. Major sponsors are interested in marketing the investment through exposure.
That exposure is generated primarily through TV followed by other forms of media(Internet, Press..ect).

Do you think that any of the few team sponsors are paying the 4-5 Million dollars to have their car in front of an average of 35K fans?

Even for tracks their main source of income is sponsorship. Haven't you noticed that even though NASCAR attendance is down none of the tracks seem to be complaining?

Look at F-1. Nobody can argue that F-1 isn't by far the most successful racing series on the planet.
Bernie once said that they could hold an F-1 event and still make the same amount of money just from TV. Nobody with any knowledge of the biz has refuted that statement.
So how much does the IRL pay the tracks to have the races.
Road America kicked out Indy cars because of no fans, so which is it?
If Indy cars pay the tracks then they must not pay Road America enough.

If the tracks do not need fans, how much are they paid?
If the tracks are not paid and fans do not show up, where will the cars run?
Race tracks are not charities.

Which is it?

You cannot have it both ways.



You cannot have it both ways.

[anthonyvop]

So how much does the IRL pay the tracks to have the races.
Road America kicked out Indy cars because of no fans, so which is it?
If Indy cars pay the tracks then they must not pay Road America enough.

If the tracks do not need fans, how much are they paid?
If the tracks are not paid and fans do not show up, where will the cars run?
Race tracks are not charities.

Which is it?

You cannot have it both ways.



You cannot have it both ways.

You got it wrong.

The tracks pay the IRL to race at their facilities. Road America couldn't make it work because the IRL doesn't generate enough interest to draw fans and sponsors.

[anthonyvop]

I noticed that there is no U.S. F-1 and vast majority of racing fans don't care.

Do you believe that? Then why is there a lack of US drivers in the IRL?
And why is FOX going to broadcast the Next 4 F-1 races on their NetworK?
How come ATT, HP, Microsoft and Exxon sponsor F1 teams and not the IRL? Why does Red Bull own 2 teams yet don't even sponsoring a team in the IRL. Red Bull is in every Major Series. F-1, WRC, Rally America, NASCAR and yet have no interest in Indy Car.



I have not seen any, net threads on Singapore, but there one finds many on the Indianapolis 500, and even the IRL, whilst not even looking for them.

Now you are being silly. All one has to look at this message board.

F-1 18,052 Threads.
Indy 6,108 Threads


The Dakar Rally is known better in the U.S. than any race in Singapore, or for that matter so is a race in Macau.

You really believe that the Macau GP is more popular in the US than F-1?

Really?

Even Dakar, an event I am involved with, isn't as well known as F-1 in the US. I wish it was though.

I will admit that F-1 isn't really popular in the USA but then again neither is Indy Car.

[Bob Riebe]

[quote="anthonyvop"]Do you believe that? Then why is there a lack of US drivers in the IRL?
And why is FOX going to broadcast the Next 4 F-1 races on their NetworK?
How come ATT, HP, Microsoft and Exxon sponsor F1 teams and not the IRL? Why does Red Bull own 2 teams yet don't even sponsoring a team in the IRL. Red Bull is in every Major Series. F-1, WRC, Rally America, NASCAR and yet have no interest in Indy Car.
It is called buying a ride and there are more foreign drivers with sugar daddies, than there are from the U.S.
Besides NASCAR pays so damn well, for just qualifying, why waste time with minor leagues like F-1 or Indy car.

Now you are being silly. All one has to look at this message board.

F-1 18,052 Threads.
Indy 6,108 Threads
YOU said Singapore not F-1, so, how many threads dedicated to Singapore verses the Indianapolis 500?
You are the one trying to say Singapore is more than just another unkonwn F-1 race in the U.S.

You really believe that the Macau GP is more popular in the US than F-1?

Really? Try actually reading what I write; it is BETTER KNOWN than Singapore.

Even Dakar, an event I am involved with, isn't as well known as F-1 in the US. I wish it was though.
Then you must run in a circle that is quite illiterate concerning automotive affairs, especially as terrorist threats have affected the Dakar, which put it on the front page news in some areas.
Singapore is in the news in Singapore.

I will admit that F-1 isn't really popular in the USA but then again neither is Indy Car.
Indianapolis is still front page sports section news in many news papers; F-1 is lucky if the results get listed.

[Bob Riebe]

You got it wrong.

The tracks pay the IRL to race at their facilities. Road America couldn't make it work because the IRL doesn't generate enough interest to draw fans and sponsors.
Give me proof, all you are giving is your opinion.

Road America never had an IRL race.

Champ car was denied a race after 2004 and only allowed back on probabion of if it did not draw enough fans it would be removed permanently; therefore, Champ Car worked a deal with the IMSA, which worked 2006-7 but then Champ car went pffft.
Look it up.

[Bob Riebe]

Unfortunately, other than Indy, the rest of the season doesn't even get the media play F1 does in most places in the US.
Well here it gets about the same, close to zero.

[anthonyvop]

Do you believe that? Then why is there a lack of US drivers in the IRL?
And why is FOX going to broadcast the Next 4 F-1 races on their NetworK?
How come ATT, HP, Microsoft and Exxon sponsor F1 teams and not the IRL? Why does Red Bull own 2 teams yet don't even sponsoring a team in the IRL. Red Bull is in every Major Series. F-1, WRC, Rally America, NASCAR and yet have no interest in Indy Car.
It is called buying a ride and there are more foreign drivers with sugar daddies, than there are from the U.S.
Besides NASCAR pays so damn well, for just qualifying, why waste time with minor leagues like F-1 or Indy car.

Now you are being silly. All one has to look at this message board.

F-1 18,052 Threads.
Indy 6,108 Threads
YOU said Singapore not F-1, so, how many threads dedicated to Singapore verses the Indianapolis 500?
You are the one trying to say Singapore is more than just another unkonwn F-1 race in the U.S.

You really believe that the Macau GP is more popular in the US than F-1?

Really? Try actually reading what I write; it is BETTER KNOWN than Singapore.

Even Dakar, an event I am involved with, isn't as well known as F-1 in the US. I wish it was though.
Then you must run in a circle that is quite illiterate concerning automotive affairs, especially as terrorist threats have affected the Dakar, which put it on the front page news in some areas.
Singapore is in the news in Singapore.

I will admit that F-1 isn't really popular in the USA but then again neither is Indy Car.
Indianapolis is still front page sports section news in many news papers; F-1 is lucky if the results get listed.

So let me get this straight.

You believe that the Macau GP is better known than the Singapore GP

Dakar is in the news still because of Terrorism in North Africa.

Indy Car is more Popular than F-1

Indy Car is on the front page of sports section.

Track Spectators are more important to the success of the Indy Car Series than TV.

Popular Hot Rodding and Car Craft magazine are more important than TV and the Internet regarding Indy Cars.

And the world doesn't exist outside of the US borders.

Who are you? Tony George?


BTW The Dakar hasn't been run in North Africa since 2007.

[Bob Riebe]

[quote="anthonyvop"][quote="Bob Riebe"]

So let me get this straight.

You believe that the Macau GP is better known than the Singapore GP-- In the U.S., yep.
Been around longer.

Dakar is in the news still because of Terrorism in North Africa.It was, and before that it was well known.
Indy Car is more Popular than F-1[n] We were speaking Indy verses Singapore. But in the U.S. I'll put my money on Penske and the IRL.

Indy Car is on the front page of sports section.Try actually reading what is written. Indianapolis race was. F-1 rarely even gets results listed around here, the IRL does.

Track Spectators are more important to the success of the Indy Car Series than TV. Tracks are, no spectators, no tracks, no races.

Popular Hot Rodding and Car Craft magazine are more important than TV and the Internet regarding Indy Cars.No, that is your way of twisting this.
If you are actually reading.
The fans that read those, used to go to open wheel races, if they want more fans, create a formula that brings them back,(by being mentioned in said same rags) otherwise they will continue to funnel millions of dollars into drag and short track racings pockets, and ignore open wheel and road racing.

And the world doesn't exist outside of the US borders. This thread, Indy cars, and I, are not concerned with things outside of North America, or really the Indianapolis 500 as far as non-short track open wheel racing goes.

Who are you? Tony George?

BTW The Dakar hasn't been run in North Africa since 2007. But of course, but it is still better known in the U.S. than the Singapore GP.

[anthonyvop]

You believe that the Macau GP is better known than the Singapore GP-- In the U.S., yep.
Been around longer.
Just because something has been around longer does not make it more popular.
The thought that a stand alone Formula-3 race is more popular than an F-1 event is ludicrous.


Indy Car is more Popular than F-1[n] We were speaking Indy verses Singapore. But in the U.S. I'll put my money on Penske and the IRL.[/b]
Who is talking just the US? I ain't.


Indy Car is on the front page of sports section.Try actually reading what is written. Indianapolis race was. F-1 rarely even gets results listed around here, the IRL does.
Where is around here for you?
Who reads newspapers anymore? A dying form of media. And where I am from F-1 gets more press in the local papers than the IRL.


Track Spectators are more important to the success of the Indy Car Series than TV. Tracks are, no spectators, no tracks, no races.
You have no grasp of the Business of Racing do you?
If you actually believe that spectators at a race are more important that TV for Indy Cars then I suggest you go find some other old guys and reminisce about front engine roadsters on short tracks


Popular Hot Rodding and Car Craft magazine are more important than TV and the Internet regarding Indy Cars.No, that is your way of twisting this.
If you are actually reading.
The fans that read those, used to go to open wheel races, if they want more fans, create a formula that brings them back,(by being mentioned in said same rags) otherwise they will continue to funnel millions of dollars into drag and short track racings pockets, and ignore open wheel and road racing.
The fans of those magazines...The ones that are still alive....are too old to be a desirable market or of the wrong demographic.
Those guys will never embrace real racing. To try to lure them away from the drag strips and short tracks makes no sense economically. Wrong Demo.


And the world doesn't exist outside of the US borders. This thread, Indy cars, and I, are not concerned with things outside of North America, or really the Indianapolis 500 as far as non-short track open wheel racing goes.
You may not be concerned with things outside of North America but any business man is. And never forget that Indy Car is a business.



BTW The Dakar hasn't been run in North Africa since 2007. But of course, but it is still better known in the U.S. than the Singapore GP.

The numbers disagree with you. I and will trust them before I trust you.

Listen I have just completed two sponsorship deals and are working on 3 more for a business.
We researched every major series F-1, WRC, IRC, Rally America, GP2, GP3, NASCAR, ALMS, G/A, Indy Car, NHRA, World Challenge, Dakar. ect. We have even looked at club series.

When it came to ROI Indy Car came in last in almost every category.

[call_me_andrew]

I've heard IMS is creepy at night (some say it's haunted) so I'm not going to get behind any night 500. I'm not opposed to the concept of night races, but Indy is neither the time nor the place for it.

I would only move the 500 to Monday if Firestone could build a rain tire that can the oval, because no one will watch on Tuesday.

[BT46B]

The Fact is Milwaukee's promoters never paid the IRL or NASCAR for their races there a year or so ago. The IRL didn't reject Milwaukee, they just cannot afford to race for free. Furthermore, the idiots running the fairgrounds have stuck their noses into that mess.

If ovals are not on the IRL sched, that is a shame, but everything isn't what it seems. Also, for anyone to say Richmond was worth it attendance wise wasn't really looking at the acres of empty grandstands. It may have had more people, but it wasn't a successful event. Texas is successful. Chicagoland or Kansas will have to draw on their on merits. The point is, those who want the IRL to stay with an oval component also have to realize you don't want to race before empty grandstands. Sponsors want to put money into races where it appears there are fans. Sponsors don't want to tune in to the race they are helping bring to the public, and realizing the public has not shown up.

Oval racing is part of the history of the IRL, but the fans have to show up and support the events. People can knock street races all they like, artistically they are not always great races, BUT if 70000 people pay good money at the site to watch them, then you have to look at that seriously and understand they have a product there. You may not like it, but people are PAYING THEIR DOLLARS TO WATCH. If 20000 are sitting in the stands at Kansas because they don't HAVE To be forced to take IRL tickets to get their NASCAR tickets, then you are getting 20000 hardcore fans to be sure, but it doesn't look good and isn't making money for anyone.

The fact is, I want ovals to be part of the IRL, but if they are all cookie cutter foot to the floor tracks, then you might as well give up. Flat ovals put on the best show for this type of race car. New Hampshire, Phoenix, Gateway and Milwaukee should be the types of tracks kept around...

As for me, I started watching street races at Long Beach when they were still F1 and the were absolutely hairaising!!! It was very difficult to lower the bar when ChampCars or whatever they were still called then came to LB the hairpin became a hard right and they never came screaming down Elm again (and turning in you rface if you were against the fence) Listen, I adjusted because I love motorracing but there was nothing like the first few races I went to. I, too, enjoy a GOOD oval for Indycar but an oval is an oval for me because then I first went racing the street courses had more shunts (most on purpose) than anything we see these days.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Boy....I am not sure I have much left to say after the Bob and Tony show.......

I will say this. Both of em have points. They need TV AND fans at the track. Fans at the track they can likely get, but they may end up losing an oval or two because of it, but if they cannot get eyeballs on TV, then the sponsors will go away, and bye bye racing...

[call_me_andrew]

I will say this. Both of em have points. They need TV AND fans at the track. Fans at the track they can likely get, but they may end up losing an oval or two because of it, but if they cannot get eyeballs on TV, then the sponsors will go away, and bye bye racing...

You can make a similar argument for archaic TV blackout rules.

[e2mtt]

Boy....I am not sure I have much left to say after the Bob and Tony show.......

I will say this. Both of em have points. They need TV AND fans at the track. Fans at the track they can likely get, but they may end up losing an oval or two because of it, but if they cannot get eyeballs on TV, then the sponsors will go away, and bye bye racing...

What did Bob & Tom say? I haven't heard them in a long time, but I remember they were big Indy 500 fans.