Spygate III: Force India vs Lotus? (Allegedly)

[Dave B]

Pitpass (I know, I know) is reporting that Lotus may have "borrowed" the design of their 2010 car from Force India, and is claiming damages.

Not sure how credible the report is, but I can't help thinking it puts into perspective the McLaren-Ferrari-Toyota rows of recent years: this has always gone on and almost certainly always will.


Records at the UK's High Court show that Force India has launched a damages claim against the companies which run Lotus Racing alleging that they copied the windtunnel model which its car is based on.

The claim has echoes of the row which erupted in 2007 when the FIA fined McLaren $100m for possessing blueprints from Ferrari.

The claim has been filed against the 1Malaysia Racing Team company in the UK and Malaysia. It also names Lotus Racing's chief technical officer Mike Gascoyne and Italian automotive firm Aerolab which worked with Lotus to develop its 2010 car. Aerolab previously worked with Force India for three years until September 2009 and Gascoyne was the team's chief technology officer from November 2006 until November 2008.

Full story here: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=40998

Force India allegedly left its windtunnel model with Aerolab and this has led to the accusation of copying since Lotus used its facilities when it rejoined the sport in September last year after a 16-year hiatus.

[CNR]

http://www.india.com/sports/cricket/shocker-force-india-sued-over-wind-tunnel_5909

an Italian wind tunnel operator has decided to take legal action against the team for serious and persistent breaches of contract.
Apparently Force India were worried about the fact that the new Lotus F1 team that debuts in the 2010 season had copied details of the 2009 Force India VJM02 car. Lotus incidentally was in collaboration with Aerolab’s parent company Fondtech. Force India blamed Makie Gascyonne, who was fired from the team for using the VJMO2 technology on the Lotus F1 car. Gascyonne is presently the head of the Lotus team.

i think this is the biggest load of BS

[Daniel]

Pitpass (I know, I know) is reporting that Lotus may have "borrowed" the design of their 2010 car from Force India, and is claiming damages.

Not sure how credible the report is, but I can't help thinking it puts into perspective the McLaren-Ferrari-Toyota rows of recent years: this has always gone on and almost certainly always will.



Full story here: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=40998

Force India allegedly left its windtunnel model with Aerolab and this has led to the accusation of copying since Lotus used its facilities when it rejoined the sport in September last year after a 16-year hiatus.
:rotflmao: That's like saying that it's cheating to notice something on a competitors car and change your car to suit. Force India left their model in the windtunnel, idiots.

[Koz]

Force India left their model in the windtunnel, idiots.

Wow... That's the stupidest think I have ever heard of, who does that?

[Daniel]

Wow... That's the stupidest think I have ever heard of, who does that?
I should point out that I assumed that having read Dave's post, reading it again it may not be as clear as that.

[Azumanga Davo]

Time to get the tape measures out at the scrutineering shed, methinks. :D

[52Paddy]

I'll await further press releases before judging the situation. On the surface, with what we've got, it sounds ridiculous.

[Koz]

I should point out that I assumed that having read Dave's post, reading it again it may not be as clear as that.

But why leave anything with someone else? It makes no sense.

Hum, thinking back now, wouldn't pictures alone of a car be usable to make a computerized model and in essence reverse engineer it (to a very small degree, but still)?

[CNR]

i am starting to change my view on force india scumbags
http://racingblips.dailyradar.com/article/force-india-wins-4-6-million-in-suit-against-sponsors/


Former Force India sponsors Eithad and Aldar today were ordered to pay the team $4.6 million in compensation for terminating their deals after the team made its switch from Spyker to Force India. Do you suppose Giancarlo Fisichella is on the phone to Vijay Mallya yet? The new-to-me Arabianbusiness.com says it has the exclusive story : Etihad and Aldar, the title sponsors of the team, switched its sponsorship to the Ferrari team for the 2008 season citing conflict with Kingfisher,

http://www.aerolab.com/



AEROLAB specializes in the design, fabrication, installation and calibration of aerospace wind tunnels and wind-tunnel-related devices and instrumentation. Founded in 1947 by the late Professor A. Wiley Sherwood, AEROLAB has since manufactured over 500 subsonic, transonic and supersonic wind tunnels. On-site facilities (13,000sq.ft) include machining, welding, painting and electronics shops. AEROLAB’s team of experienced engineers can design a complete system to meet your exact educational, testing or research specifications.
i think this lawsuit is over the lawsuit that Aerolab have over forcescumbag
http://www.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/Force-India-face-legal-action-20091109

Italian wind tunnel operator Aerolab said on Friday they were taking legal action against the Force India Formula One team for "serious and persistent" breaches of contract.The company issued a statement after media reports suggested Force India were concerned that Lotus, who are now working closely with Aerolab's parent company Fondtech, had copied details of their 2009 car.

[ArrowsFA1]

Looks like this could get messy :dozey:


Force India has said it is treating its legal action against Lotus Racing, Mike Gascoyne and Aerolab over a breach of intellectual property as a 'very serious' matter.

"Force India believes that Lotus Racing, via its use of Aerolab and Fondtech facilities and data, has utilised and benefited from the use of Force India F1 team's intellectual property, including components and tyres exclusively licensed by Bridgestone to the Force India F1 team, on its wind tunnel model design for the current Lotus T127 chassis without permission from the Force India F1 team.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84090

[CNR]

i am starting to change my view on force india scumbags
http://racingblips.dailyradar.com/article/force-india-wins-4-6-million-in-suit-against-sponsors/


http://www.aerolab.com/

i think this lawsuit is over the lawsuit that Aerolab have over forcescumbag
http://www.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/Force-India-face-legal-action-20091109


[/align]
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138530

[Mysterious Rock]

Well another twist in the tail.
From ITV-F1.com


Lotus has recruited Force India’s design chief Mark Smith as its technical director.

The Norfolk-based team, which has been the most impressive of the three new entrants so far this season, said Smith would take up his post as soon as he has served his notice period with his current employer.

Smith will report to Lotus’s chief technical officer Mike Gascoyne, with whom he has worked at three other teams.

Two other Force India technical staff, Lewis Butler and Marianne Hinson, are also making the switch to Lotus, having been appointed as chief designer and head of aerodynamics respectively.

Gascoyne said: “I’m exceptionally pleased to welcome Marianne and Lewis to Lotus Racing, and I’m very excited to once again be teaming up with Mark Smith who I have previously worked with at Jordan, Renault and Force India.

“Lewis and I were together at Force India, and Lewis also worked with Mark Smith at Red Bull, and Marianne and I have known each other since 1999 when I gave her her first job in F1 at Jordan, so we all know each other very well.

“Mark Smith and I were first at Jordan together where our first car was the 199, Jordan’s most successful F1 entrant, and then he came with me to Renault where we helped put them back on the top step of the podium, and put in place the team that went on to win two world championships.

“Most recently we were together at Force India, and I’m delighted he sees the potential we have here, and has seized the opportunity to work with me, [team principal] Tony [Fernandes] and the whole team on helping Lotus Racing reach the front of the grid.”

Gascoyne is confident the new appointments will significantly bolster Lotus’s technical team.

“For me, it’s not just about the proven technical ability of the team we now have in place, it’s also the fact we’ve all worked together before, know how to achieve the goals we’ve set out, and know how to have fun together,” he explained.

“We all work together extremely well, and that gives us the perfect base from which to build for long-term success.”

Fernandes said the fact that Lotus had been able to attract established senior technical figures was a vote of confidence in his team’s progress and potential.

“I am honoured that these fantastic talents have put their careers and their faith in Lotus Racing, and see the very bright future we all have together here,” he said.

“Formula 1 is a small world and the fact that they are coming to our team shows what we have already achieved in a very short period.

“Nothing will stop us from bringing in the best people we can, and we will give them the best working environment, and create the perfect atmosphere for them to fulfil their own potential, and help us in our quest to reach the top.”

[F1boat]

What the doctor ordered - more scandals :(

If Force India did indeed leave their model in a wind tunnel also being used by Lotus, I can't see how they will be able to suceed in suing Lotus. The stupidity of that in itself is quite alarming, and as far as I am concerned its fair game. Good luck Vijay.. :)

IF Lotus have used a wind tunnel model belonging to force India, be it left by mistake or just abandoned, it is not their property.

But I wouldn't expect a Mclarenista to understand basic legal principles.

[52Paddy]

The stupidity of that in itself is quite alarming,

Indeed. How could a team be that careless? That's a ridiculous thing to do and it's Force India's fault for leaving themselves open to their data being used.

Indeed. How could a team be that careless? That's a ridiculous thing to do and it's Force India's fault for leaving themselves open to their data being used.

So if you leave your car with the keys in it and I nick it, it's ok?

You contributed to your misfortune, but no court would say it was ok for me to steal your belongings.

[DazzlaF1]

Well it seems they left it in what can only be described as a public arena, or a contracted space used by a rival firm. Photographing it and using data from the wind tunnel once it has been left unattended is a privilege they really shouldn't have been gifted. I think the red faces should be at Force India over this and it should be taken as a lesson learnt, rather than taking it to court and embarrassing themselves further. :)

Force India should hang their heads in shame and focus more as to how why all that important information was left behind rather than trying to move the blame game towards other parties through the courts.

Some say it bears similarities to the Arrows/Shadow row in 1978, difference there was that the design team at Arrows knew what they were doing taking the drawings of Shadow's DN9 and making that form the basis of their first car, the FA1. This here is just a case of a new team stumbling across information regarding Force India's 2009 car and using it to their advantage, I mean would you have done the same if you were given a 5 month timeframe to design and build a Grand prix car from scratch? I would have done.

Basically, I dont see it as a form of "stealing" ideas, more a case of "Finders Keepers"

[52Paddy]

So if you leave your car with the keys in it and I nick it, it's ok?

You contributed to your misfortune, but no court would say it was ok for me to steal your belongings.

I understand where you're coming from but I think that example is a bit extreme. I find it more akin to a kid in school who copies the answers to a test off the smart kid beside him. I'm not saying Lotus were entirely justified in their actions (if true as reported of course). It was a sneaky manoeuvre but an opportunistic one. Force India should know well that you need to keep EVERYTHING in your team behind closed doors. If people in rival F1 teams are expected to trust each other then why are mechanics and personnel always guarding new diffusers etc when a teams' car is within the proximity of other teams?

[CNR]

this coming from the same bunch that got hold of the toro rosso car blueprints are they running scared that someone will find the toro rosso parts

[Daniel]

So if you leave your car with the keys in it and I nick it, it's ok?

You contributed to your misfortune, but no court would say it was ok for me to steal your belongings.

I see where you're coming from but it's different. If a team leaves their car uncovered in the pitlane with a new part on and others see it then it's their fault. Ditto here really.

[call_me_andrew]

Lotus is way too slow to be cheating.

[UltimateDanGTR]

So if you leave your car with the keys in it and I nick it, it's ok?

You contributed to your misfortune, but no court would say it was ok for me to steal your belongings.

but they didn't steal their belongings did they, they merely 'had a look' it seems

If you left your car in a car park, and it was a rather nice one, people would naturally have a look at it and admire it. no harm done. If you've got a problem with it, you shouldnt leave it on display and you should have left it out of view so no one could take a look.

[I am evil Homer]

Or in this case ensure your contract states the model is removed and given to you as you own the IP. Seems to me this is a huge mistake by FI outsorucing work to a third party and then not tieing up the loose ends.

Rather than suing Lotus they should be looking at their own team. And yes what did happen to those STR blueprints they had?

[SGWilko]

So if you leave your car with the keys in it and I nick it, it's ok?

You contributed to your misfortune, but no court would say it was ok for me to steal your belongings.

Lotus did not steal the model, and I doubt it would have keys anyway.

If I look at your car - or even yacht :D - that is not an offence nor am I knicking anything.

[jens]

I suspect Force India might drop backwards in 2011 - they have lost quite a lot of key people in recent years. :\ Gascoyne, Key, Smith and more. Wonder, why so and what is going on? Why are they all leaving a team that seems to be on a rise? Key even left to a team, which is seemingly in a financial trouble. Is the "spygate" just Mallya's desperate attempt to keep his team intact?

[DazzlaF1]

I suspect Force India might drop backwards in 2011 - they have lost quite a lot of key people in recent years. :\ Gascoyne, Key, Smith and more. Wonder, why so and what is going on? Why are they all leaving a team that seems to be on a rise? Key even left to a team, which is seemingly in a financial trouble. Is the "spygate" just Mallya's desperate attempt to keep his team intact?

I feel they'll be promoting from within, afterall, an F1 design team usually consists of more than 4 people so I think they should be fine.

[CNR]

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/F1-team-to-sue-over.6340342.jp

It claims the team used and benefited from the use of its intellectual property in the wind tunnel model design for the Lotus T127

this would be like a builder building 2 houses from the same plan
and the owner of the first house suing the owner of the second house


kick forceindia out of f1 for bringing the sport into disrepute

[Daniel]

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/F1-team-to-sue-over.6340342.jp


this would be like a builder building 2 houses from the same plan
and the owner of the first house suing the owner of the second house


kick forceindia out of f1 for bringing the sport into disrepute
That's not a very apt analogy.

[ShiftingGears]

I see where you're coming from but it's different. If a team leaves their car uncovered in the pitlane with a new part on and others see it then it's their fault. Ditto here really.

It's definitely not a black and white issue. Is everytime someone takes a look at a rivals car considered a basis for intellectual property theft? At what degree of studying a rivals car and using it to influence your design considered so? And how similar does the differing design have to be to until it is considered property theft?

Definitely demonstrates why F1 teams have lawyers.

[CNR]

That's not a very apt analogy.
the way i see it it is the windtunnel not the car
http://www.aerolab.com/



AEROLAB specializes in the design, fabrication, installation and calibration of aerospace wind tunnels and wind-tunnel-related devices and instrumentation. Founded in 1947 by the late Professor A. Wiley Sherwood, AEROLAB has since manufactured over 500 subsonic, transonic and supersonic wind tunnels. On-site facilities (13,000sq.ft) include machining, welding, painting and electronics shops. AEROLAB’s team of experienced engineers can design a complete system to meet your exact educational, testing or research specifications. Contact AEROLAB with your laboratory equipment specifications for a free quotation.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84083
Lotus granted indemnity in Aerolab case

Lotus Racing has been granted full indemnity from Aerolab/Fondtech in the aerodynamic design company's ongoing court action with the Force India team.
Force India is seeking damages from Fondtech/Aerolab because it believes it copied the team's wind tunnel design model in the work it did helping out Lotus.

[Tumbo]

intellectual property law is a rather interesting beast which is reasonably consistent across the globe thanks to a great many international agreements - it is CERTAINLY not as clear either way as some ppl are trying to make out and will be interesting to see the applications of some basic principles as to what constitutes a design and the protection within that sphere.