A message to the top teams

[Dr. Krogshöj]

After yesterday's fuel saving nonsense and the sour faces on the podium, I fear the top teams will have stricter instrunctions regarding intra-team battles for the rest of the season.

I'd like to say one thing to them. I don't care which team wins the constructors championship. I want to see agressive racing between the drivers' championship contenders, regardless whether they're team-mates or not.

I may be alone on this, but I hope there are more fans out there who agree.

[markabilly]

Amen, and pass the red bull....err Kool aid

[N. Jones]

The teams care about the constructors championship because of money or because it is a way of justifying their existence.

I think it is a given that the fans care most about the drivers championship but these two differences are going to make for some frustrating races for the fans.

[Valve Bounce]

After yesterday's fuel saving nonsense and the sour faces on the podium, I fear the top teams will have stricter instrunctions regarding intra-team battles for the rest of the season.

I'd like to say one thing to them. I don't care which team wins the constructors championship. I want to see agressive racing between the drivers' championship contenders, regardless whether they're team-mates or not.

I may be alone on this, but I hope there are more fans out there who agree.

But wait a minute: what if one driver has to save fuel while his team mate is harassed by a faster car? Surely we would want the guy saving fuel to let his non fuel saving fuel to burn driver to be allowed through, don't we?

[Dr. Krogshöj]

But wait a minute: what if one driver has to save fuel while his team mate is harassed by a faster car? Surely we would want the guy saving fuel to let his non fuel saving fuel to burn driver to be allowed through, don't we?

If this hypothetical situation is amy similar to what happened to Red Bull in Turkey, than the teammate would have to start to save fuel within a matter of laps too. So even if the guy in front lets him past, the whole situation would remain the same, just with reversed roles. If the team still expected the guy in front to let his teammate by, allegations of favouritism wouldn't be entirely unfounded.

[markabilly]

If this hypothetical situation is amy similar to what happened to Red Bull in Turkey, than the teammate would have to start to save fuel within a matter of laps too. So even if the guy in front lets him past, the whole situation would remain the same, just with reversed roles. If the team still expected the guy in front to let his teammate by, allegations of favouritism wouldn't be entirely unfounded.
The real problem is that the performance and set up of the cars dominant over the driver's ability so much now.

Even battles between team mates are not an accurate representation of the driver's real talent, as the set up can easily favor one over the other.

Then there is data acquisition. The last five years have seen even more advances in this area, to the point of measuring exactly how much force the driver is placing on his brake pedal.... A smart driver can sit down with his engineer and learn where and HOW his team mate is gaining on him, with the driver making adjustments, based on the overly detailed data acquisition available.

Yet, due to all of this, the opportunity for real head to head battles....is with the team mates whose cars may well be evenly matched on some tracks.

Personally, the most fun of this weekend's race was those few moments when button and hamilton went toe to toe......made the race for me. :up: :up:

I also think Hamilton held off passing or making a serious attempt at Webber where hamilton might have gotten along side Webber, due to Webber's clear willingness to crash out and not give an inch.

There needs to be a big rule change here, otherwise passing will contniue to be a joke

In the sixties, seventies and even the eighties, there was far more willingness to give another driver room, as the danger and damage from an accident was so high--indeed, touching wheels was a daisister.... :eek:

but with wings and set up, the Webber-Vettel touch did not send a car flying as in the old days, probably due to the downforce of the wings keeping the car down.

Indy race yesterday showed some clear enforcement of the blocking rule....indeed, with Danny hamilton or RHR (I forget which) one sufferred a drive through penalty for what really did not appear to me to be a block....but so be it.


Perhaps similar enforcement should be in F1. The only time I can recall any real penalty, was the one put on Schuie at the end of the season when he contacted JV....yet both before and after, I have seen so many other times, when a penalty should have been given, with even more justification, but nothing happenned.
(and I do not want to raise that old incident--frankly i thought the peanlty that he lost the championship and JV did not was penalty enough...)

So I think F1 NEEDS BOTH A BLOCKING RULE AND A FAILURE TO YIeLD OR give room RULE--- and more importantly, objective, strict and immediate enforcement of the rules

as to how to demanding and enforce "permitting team mates to race each other", I am not sure how one can make an effective rule......this old "no team orders" rule is so easy to get around....

[wedge]

It is a team sport and has been for a long, long time. Whether you like it or not the team have the right to consolidate a 1-2 finish by calling the inter-team race off at a certain point near the finish (usually the final stint in recent years).

However I do find it strange that race leader Webber was supposedly told to save fuel/turn down the engine which was akin to offering an open goal to McLaren/Vettel.

[wedge]

There needs to be a big rule change here, otherwise passing will contniue to be a joke

Hmmm which manoeuvre is the joke?

Exciting close wheel to wheel racing or

please, here you go after you



In the sixties, seventies and even the eighties, there was far more willingness to give another driver room, as the danger and damage from an accident was so high--indeed, touching wheels was a daisister.... :eek:

Villeneuve, Senna, Mansell, Farina, Brabham, De Cesaris

[markabilly]

Hmmm which manoeuvre is the joke?

Exciting close wheel to wheel racing or

please, here you go after you


No, giving room.

Lewis and Hamilton did that very well with each other, but not vettel and webber

As to the joke, there is no passing much because of this stuff.
as with webber

Senna, mansell, and Prost were the ones who started this crash out the opposition and got away with it....even when done deliberately, with malice a forethought

as to strange...well given the post race comments, the team has a fav, and it is not webber....

Sort of like with Hamilton and FA, the Mac team hada f av, and it was not Freeddie...

[wedge]

As to the joke, there is no passing much because of this stuff.
as with webber

In my book, blocking = racing

Don't like it? Find another profession

[Daika]

It is clear to me that "save the fuel" is a code for do not overtake. Which means Red Bull and Mclaren were using TEAMORDERS. I don't mind it but let's be open about it.

[steveaki13]

It is clear to me that "save the fuel" is a code for do not overtake. Which means Red Bull and Mclaren were using TEAMORDERS. I don't mind it but let's be open about it.

I agree

Believe me I want to see a continuation of teammates being able to battle in races but teams will always try and reduce risk between their two cars and it is just whether we want teams to just say "don't race" or whether we want them to say things like "Save Fuel" really it doesn't matter what they say as it leads to the same thing, so I understand that at times the teams want to use orders, and also feel that the banning of team orders is a bit pointless.

There are times when we would all surely agree and accept that teams should be able to give obvious orders over that radio rather than all of this code. Not saying the drivers have to take any notice, but the teams can at least be allowed order a driver to do something.

A few examples for team orders to be given without having to beat around the bush.
These are not things I particularly want to see but I just think the teams should be entitled to run their team as they wish.

A driver needs to finish ahead of his teammate in the last race to win a championship - the team should be able to just say "Let him past"[/*:m:b9tdencj]
Back in the day when fuel strategy's were in force, and a team mate was on a 2 stopper and arrived behind his 1 stopping teammate.[/*:m:b9tdencj]
1-2 and way ahead of the rest a team really should be allowed to call racing off.[/*:m:b9tdencj]Ultimatley the drivers can decide whether they listen or not.

[markabilly]

In my book, blocking = racing

Don't like it? Find another profession
yeah, I am sure Schuie said the same at his little hearing with JV....

and just exactly what Webber needs to tell that Marko and his austrian bunch.... :eek:

But I would love to see something that requires team mates to always race each other, where the team can not override it...but I do not know how...

Ind

[airshifter]

It is clear to me that "save the fuel" is a code for do not overtake. Which means Red Bull and Mclaren were using TEAMORDERS. I don't mind it but let's be open about it.

Mclaren told Lewis to save fuel on lap 44, and he was leading. Was he not supposed to overtake the back markers?

Jenson was told after his attempt on Lewis to save more fuel, which leads me to think that he has previously been told to conserve.


I don't think Mclaren were giving orders, I think they actually had a fuel consumption concern. In the case of Red Bull I'm not sure. Two identical cars, that traded fast laps the entire race, yet one needed to conserve fuel so the other could get away from the car behind. That and the fact that they even stated they weren't giving orders leads me to think that they were at least attempting to do so.

[goodf1fun]

After yesterday's fuel saving nonsense and the sour faces on the podium, I fear the top teams will have stricter instrunctions regarding intra-team battles for the rest of the season.

I'd like to say one thing to them. I don't care which team wins the constructors championship. I want to see agressive racing between the drivers' championship contenders, regardless whether they're team-mates or not.

I may be alone on this, but I hope there are more fans out there who agree.

and you need to open a thread to say this bull@#$%^^&
make your own team and then decide what your drivers will do LOL

[Jag_Warrior]

But I would love to see something that requires team mates to always race each other, where the team can not override it...but I do not know how...

Ind

Bonus points and cash (for the repairs) to the team for a driver giving it the "old college try" and it ends in tears? Maybe some teams would take that deal, but probably not the top teams. Probably the same teams that would hire Danica Patrick to get some attention/$.

Years ago I was in the pits with a team that I sometimes hung around with (local dirt track racing). During the race, the two team cars got into it with each other and took both cars out. After the race, the owner cussed these two guys til he turned purple in the face. It was one of those cussings where the person asks a question, and when one of the others tries to answer he responds with a "shut your f'ing mouth!!! you shut your f'ing mouth!!!" :eek: In no uncertain terms, he let both guys know that those cars were HIS cars, not THEIR cars. And they were responsible for wrecking HIS cars... BOTH of his cars. That old dude went totally A.J. Foyt on them. I'm surprised that he didn't either have a heart attack or take a swing at them.

So I take it as a given that while teammates can race each other, they darn well better not take out the team's cars with lower percentage moves as they do so. And if they can't play nice together, one of them has to go (Senna vs. Prost Rule). I don't think it's right, but I see Webber as the odd man out in this case, because Vettel is the future as Red Bull sees it.

[airshifter]

Bonus points and cash (for the repairs) to the team for a driver giving it the "old college try" and it ends in tears? Maybe some teams would take that deal, but probably not the top teams. Probably the same teams that would hire Danica Patrick to get some attention/$.

Years ago I was in the pits with a team that I sometimes hung around with (local dirt track racing). During the race, the two team cars got into it with each other and took both cars out. After the race, the owner cussed these two guys til he turned purple in the face. It was one of those cussings where the person asks a question, and when one of the others tries to answer he responds with a "shut your f'ing mouth!!! you shut your f'ing mouth!!!" :eek: In no uncertain terms, he let both guys know that those cars were HIS cars, not THEIR cars. And they were responsible for wrecking HIS cars... BOTH of his cars. That old dude went totally A.J. Foyt on them. I'm surprised that he didn't either have a heart attack or take a swing at them.

So I take it as a given that while teammates can race each other, they darn well better not take out the team's cars with lower percentage moves as they do so. And if they can't play nice together, one of them has to go (Senna vs. Prost Rule). I don't think it's right, but I see Webber as the odd man out in this case, because Vettel is the future as Red Bull sees it.


Well put Jag. I think a lot of people lose sight to just how much money, team reputation, advertising potential, etc is at stake when team cars are racing one another. I'm sure the teams are almost as tense when they are overtaking other cars.

As for your "cash for crash" idea I'm all for it. Just give me a heads up when it starts. I'm going to pull Sato and Montoya back to F1, with Danica as the back up driver. When not driving she will be grid girl for both other cars. I'm sure I'll find sponsors easy. :D

[wmcot]

Years ago I was in the pits with a team that I sometimes hung around with (local dirt tr...So I take it as a given that while teammates can race each other, they darn well better not take out the team's cars with lower percentage moves as they do so...

I have no problem with team mates taking each other out - as long as it's not the team I want to win! ;)

[F1boat]

After yesterday's fuel saving nonsense and the sour faces on the podium, I fear the top teams will have stricter instrunctions regarding intra-team battles for the rest of the season.

I'd like to say one thing to them. I don't care which team wins the constructors championship. I want to see agressive racing between the drivers' championship contenders, regardless whether they're team-mates or not.

I may be alone on this, but I hope there are more fans out there who agree.

I am with you! Only in the end of a season, when it is clear that only one driver can win the championship, team orders are acceptable.

[e2mtt]

You have to be realistic for the team owners... once a teammate is clearly ahead of the other, unless there are know mechanical or fuel issues, there isn't any reason for the team to want them to fight each other. The legitimate time to beat a teammate is during qualifying, at the start of the race, and by lapping faster during the race to put themselves in position.

2 closely matched teammates in even cars going at it for position will drive any team crazy, and teammates taking each other out is the absolute nightmare scenario. (Double points loss, hard feelings between drivers that could result in reduced development, mechanic & engineer team chemistry issues, doubled repair needs, politics in general)

A certain level of team orders can never be eliminated.