Poll on who was at fault

[Valve Bounce]

Could the mods please organise a poll on who was at fault: Vettel or Webber. Thanks.

[CNR]

mark was at fault for going for the 3rd win 3 wins in a row would make Vettel look 2nd rate

4Q Vettel

[markabilly]

poll not necessary

, just ask how many brits are here and how many posters like germans?

Answer will be the same...

[Valve Bounce]

poll not necessary

, just ask how many brits are here and how many posters like germans?

Answer will be the same...For your information, Mark Webber has absolutely nothing to do with Brits.

[RJL25]

what a stupid comment, Webber isn't brittish, he is Australian, the brits and the aussies have a very long standing sporting rivalry that dates pre-dates even the rivalry between the brits and the germans. Yes the Australia/Brittish rivalry is far more good natured then the sometimes acromonious relationship between the Germans and the Brits but all the same the Brits are hardly queing up around the corner to support an Aussie!

[Kevincal]

a 3 year old could see that it was 100% Vettel's fault... SHEESH!

[Sonic]

a 3 year old could see that it was 100% Vettel's fault... SHEESH!

Fact. My four year old said; "he's not allowed to do that Daddy!"

Oh and BTW Nationality has bugger all to do with it. When Mark has cocked up most of the same people defending him now (including me) have been fairly open in ripping him a new one.

[Ranger]

Could the mods please organise a poll on who was at fault: Vettel or Webber. Thanks.

I think the sooner this happens the better.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Fact. My four year old said; "he's not allowed to do that Daddy!"

Oh and BTW Nationality has bugger all to do with it. When Mark has cocked up most of the same people defending him now (including me) have been fairly open in ripping him a new one.

good to know your son has a good understanding of the sport already :)

and I too blame Vettel, but put none of that down to the fact that he is german. I've been ciritical of mark in the past when he has done something wrong (australia this year) and critical of my countrymen at times, as well as vettel when he's got it wrong, like everybody. nationality has bugger all to do with it. :)

[Sonic]

good to know your son has a good understanding of the sport already :)

Following in Daddy Sonic's wheeltracks! :D He won his first "race" last month - so proud. LOL.

[Daniel]

This is pointless. Most of you guys were in agreement that all was hunky dory when Lewis Hamilton cut that chicane in Spa in 2007. So to say that a majority agreement means something is complete bullpoop

[Valve Bounce]

This is pointless. Most of you guys were in agreement that all was hunky dory when Lewis Hamilton cut that chicane in Spa in 2007. So to say that a majority agreement means something is complete bullpoop

Are you against what the majority opinion might be, or are you just interested in ioan's and your own opinion?

[Daniel]

Are you against what the majority opinion might be, or are you just interested in ioan's and your own opinion?
No, I'm simply pointing out that the way the majority see things is not necessarily the correct view.

[Valve Bounce]

No, I'm simply pointing out that the way the majority see things is not necessarily the correct view.

By the same token, neither is ioan's and yours.

[Daniel]

By the same token, neither is ioan's and yours.
and? Next you're going to shock me by telling me that the sun rises in the east and sets in the West!!!!

[Valve Bounce]

and? Next you're going to shock me by telling me that the sun rises in the east and sets in the West!!!!

No! I'm just telling you that just because both you and ioan had posted a large number of posts blaming Webber does not mean that other forum members' opinions don't count.

[Daniel]

No! I'm just telling you that just because both you and ioan had posted a large number of posts blaming Webber does not mean that other forum members' opinions don't count.
I didn't say that your opinions don't count, I said that simply because they're the majority doesn't mean that they're right.

[Valve Bounce]

I didn't say that your opinions don't count, I said that simply because they're the majority doesn't mean that they're right.

No it doesn't. But it does indicate the view of the majority of the forum members here. Are you against that?

[seppefan]

Webber squeezed him but within the rules, Seb turned a little right too soon. The fault lies really with the team for trying to get Seb to win and not Mark. Webber not guilty in my view.

[Dave B]

Some existing polls:

NobleF1 (http://twitter.com/NobleF1)[Autosport editor] Here are your poll results for the Turkey crash: Vettel to blame: 79.45%. Webber to blame: 8.8%. Racing incident: 11.75%

James Allen's site's not loading for me but he has a similar result, with 80% blaming Vettel.

A cursory glance through the Turkey and Donkey threads seems to yield similar percentages, with only a handful of people blaming Mark, almost everybody blaming Vettel, and a few inbetweeners saying racing incident.

I feel a further poll would be redundant.

[ShiftingGears]

Poll! I want to know a percentage of what the readers of this specific forum think, out of curiousity.

[Valve Bounce]

Poll! I want to know a percentage of what the readers of this specific forum think, out of curiousity.

So do I; as against the number of posts (most by two guys here) blaming one or the other. Certain people believe that if they keep posting to assert their view and that the opposing view of anyone else is wrong is the way to prove who is right and who is wrong.

Then when you try to get the general consensus, one even suggests that it is "bullpoop".

[AJP]

So do I; as against the number of posts (most by two guys here) blaming one or the other. Certain people believe that if they keep posting to assert their view and that the opposing view of anyone else is wrong is the way to prove who is right and who is wrong.

Then when you try to get the general consensus, one even suggests that it is "bullpoop".

funny that...

[Daniel]

No it doesn't. But it does indicate the view of the majority of the forum members here. Are you against that?

Are you spoiling for a fight or something? :confused: I clearly have said NO many times. Give it a break.

[CNR]

funny that...
it did come from redbulls

[Dave B]

In the absence of a poll, what say we simply post "Vettel's fault", "Webber's fault", or "50/50". I'm sure we can all count.

Vettel's fault. :)

[Daniel]

So do I; as against the number of posts (most by two guys here) blaming one or the other. Certain people believe that if they keep posting to assert their view and that the opposing view of anyone else is wrong is the way to prove who is right and who is wrong.

Then when you try to get the general consensus, one even suggests that it is "bullpoop".

Funny that you take my comments out of context. All I am saying by citing examples from the past is that the majority is not always right. I mean ffs a majority of people in the US voted that moron Dubya in. Are you going to say they were right? I'm not against people having opinions, I'm merely against the idea that because the majority agree one something that they're somehow proven right.

[Sonic]

TBH the only driver (ex or current) I've heard defending Seb's actions has been the Vet himself. I've yet to heard from anyone who has gone wheel to wheel with someone on a track support Vettel's action - and I doubt I will. Wheels interlocked at 200mph you simply Do NOT move over. Fact.

[Valve Bounce]

This is pointless. Most of you guys were in agreement that all was hunky dory when Lewis Hamilton cut that chicane in Spa in 2007. So to say that a majority agreement means something is complete bullpoop

And I say again: we just want to know the general consensus. There is nothing said so far that the general consensus is correct, or wrong. But to say it is bullpoop is extraordinarily dictatorial. It simply means one does not care what other people's opinions are.

For the record, I think it is Vettel's fault.

[ShiftingGears]

TBH the only driver (ex or current) I've heard defending Seb's actions has been the Vet himself. I've yet to heard from anyone who has gone wheel to wheel with someone on a track support Vettel's action - and I doubt I will. Wheels interlocked at 200mph you simply Do NOT move over. Fact.

Well there's Helmut Marko.

[markabilly]

For your information, Mark Webber has absolutely nothing to do with Brits.

Over simplistic view from kool aid overdose???


I must admit, that I ran out of the good stuff and just got plain dumbutt lazy, and thought I would try out some red bull piss sunday

I had refused for several years to even look at a can of it, after they paid good money and took my hero, Snotnot Speeed and his pink toenails, and put him to driving not cars, but trucks, in nascar....where those pissers are still paying him to drive

In any event, as to the poll, it does not matter what posters think, drivers think, or anyone else--even Seb

The only ones who have a vote that really count are not Mark, but Marko Hellnot and his crew of Austrians-not Australians--and they already voted, so it seems.......

Indeed, after mixing a batch of the good stuff, :beer: , I see a new chassis for Webbo, painted in the classic red bull colors, looks like a large truck......


.and Webbo's new team mate...scot

[Daniel]

And I say again: we just want to know the general consensus. There is nothing said so far that the general consensus is correct, or wrong. But to say it is bullpoop is extraordinarily dictatorial. It simply means one does not care what other people's opinions are.

For the record, I think it is Vettel's fault.

I'll give you ONE more chance before I report you for trolling :rolleyes:

I SAY again that I have no problem with people voicing their opinions, I merely feel that even if 80% of people say Webber is at fault I don't feel that this proves anything to the point where you can label it as fact.

Like I said, continue with this rubbish that I'm trying to say that people can't have their opinion and I'm not going to react, I'm going to report you.

[steveaki13]

I think they both had fault in the incident, Vettel for his slight nudge across into Webbers path and also Webber for not seeing the upcoming danger against his teammate and just moving slighty wider to allow for any mistakes into the next corner.

So I am on the fence :D



50/50

[Kevincal]

Vettel put himself in danger by diving low in the first place, where there was no room. Mark didn't move over when Vettel got alongside him because they were racing for the lead! And of course Mark had no idea Vettel would turn directly into him so far before the turn... I'm sure Mark was expecting Vettel to hold his line and try to outbrake him.

[Retro Formula 1]

Funny that you take my comments out of context. All I am saying by citing examples from the past is that the majority is not always right. I mean ffs a majority of people in the US voted that moron Dubya in. Are you going to say they were right? I'm not against people having opinions, I'm merely against the idea that because the majority agree one something that they're somehow proven right.

An opinion is an opinion and is accepted as such. The problem is that so many people think it was Sebs fault that it suggests the majority may be correct. Then we see the footage which shows Seb crashing into Mark.

And it's not just us armchair experts either.


"Where should Mark have gone?" Lewis Hamilton - who had a box-seat view of the incident that unfolded in front of him - told German television Sky. "I think the gap he left him was big enough. Even though Jenson and I both want to win, we also have respect for each other. I'm really happy that I have such a good relationship with my teammate."

Said Mercedes' Nico Rosberg: "Mark didn't move at all. For me, it was clearly Sebastian's fault."

Niki Lauda said the 22-year-old had been "much too aggressive", and former driver Alex Wurz noted in Turkey: "All my racing colleagues are in agreement that it was Vettel's fault."

In fact, apart from the Red Bull Management, it's only Eddie Jordan that seems to think Seb was in the right.

[F1boat]

Vettel and the scum pulling the strings at RBR are to blame.

[airshifter]

I'll give you ONE more chance before I report you for trolling :rolleyes:

I SAY again that I have no problem with people voicing their opinions, I merely feel that even if 80% of people say Webber is at fault I don't feel that this proves anything to the point where you can label it as fact.

Like I said, continue with this rubbish that I'm trying to say that people can't have their opinion and I'm not going to react, I'm going to report you.


I actually agree that a poll proves nothing. If 80% agree that Vettel was at fault it doen't make it a fact. It simple makes it a fact that 20% of the people on that poll have very twisted logic, and/or bias against Webber. :D


What sporting regulation did Webber violate?

[Garry Walker]

An opinion is an opinion and is accepted as such. The problem is that so many people think it was Sebs fault that it suggests the majority may be correct. Then we see the footage which shows Seb crashing into Mark.

In fact, apart from the Red Bull Management, it's only Eddie Jordan that seems to think Seb was in the right.

Helmut Marko and the whole Red Bull team has to protect their investment, the chosen one, the golden boy, the wunderkid, the next Schumi. This accident has exposed how obvious it is that he is nr.1 guy in that team.
Perfect explanation of the situation in the following link.

http://www.autosport.com/features/article.php/id/2842


In Turkey, a lot of things didn't add up to a level playing, no matter what the team might say. Afterwards, Helmut Marko, Mateschitz's eyes and ears in the team, came down squarely on Vettel's side and it was obvious from the body language of the major players in the team that Webber was not flavour of the month. Which was odd considering the accident itself was solely Vettel's fault.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84073


When asked for his opinion on the Red Bull Racing accident, Goss said: "I've only read that neither driver says they are to blame. There is some good footage of the incident, and you just have to look at it and make your own mind up. But I think Vettel had enough room on the track."

Making it as obvious as possible without actually saying it, that vettel was to blame.

Here are some pictures for you.

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/7280/fghgf.jpg

You know, it is getting quite laughable that some people are still saying this is not 100% vettels fault. Show some objectivity. I know your ego is not letting you backtrack on your comments, but some people are really looking quite silly.

[Daniel]

I actually agree that a poll proves nothing. If 80% agree that Vettel was at fault it doen't make it a fact.

That's ALL I've been trying to say. Nothing more nothing less.


This is pointless. Most of you guys were in agreement that all was hunky dory when Lewis Hamilton cut that chicane in Spa in 2007. So to say that a majority agreement means something is complete bullpoop

Exactly what I said in my first post and all I've tried to say throughout this thread.

[airshifter]

How or why does a Hamilton incident have anything at all to do with this incident?

You claim you simply want people to "agree to disagree" but what you are actually implying over and over is that the 80% is wrong and you are right. Then you wonder why people oppose that view.

I've been much more critical of Mark than Sebastian, and at times I think he has been a dirty driver. Same with many drivers. BUT I try to be objective and look at any incident on an individual basis. Based on this incident and the sporting regulations, Sebastian caused a collosion, which could have been investigated by the stewards. (why they never investigate inter-team violations is beyond me and a long subject) But Mark did absolutely nothing illegal that I can find in any regulation.

You don't want a poll, that's fine. Valve does want a poll. If you are suggesting everyone has a right to their own opinion you should have no problem with Valve requesting a poll.

Or should we have a non official poll considering whether Valve has the right to exercise his opinion and request a poll? ;)

[airshifter]

Here are some pictures for you.

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/7280/fghgf.jpg

You know, it is getting quite laughable that some people are still saying this is not 100% vettels fault. Show some objectivity. I know your ego is not letting you backtrack on your comments, but some people are really looking quite silly.

You're skewing the facts here Garry. You can view the third photo and clearly see that that "dirty driver" Webber is pushing Seb right onto the grass! Deadly move I tell you! :laugh:

[Daniel]

How or why does a Hamilton incident have anything at all to do with this incident?

You claim you simply want people to "agree to disagree" but what you are actually implying over and over is that the 80% is wrong and you are right. Then you wonder why people oppose that view.

You don't want a poll, that's fine. Valve does want a poll. If you are suggesting everyone has a right to their own opinion you should have no problem with Valve requesting a poll.

Or should we have a non official poll considering whether Valve has the right to exercise his opinion and request a poll? ;)

I might as well be shagging a dead donkey here :rotflmao:

I never said I don't want a poll, I said that it doesn't prove anything, in fact a couple of posts above you actually agree with me :laugh: Please show me where I say that there shouldn't be a poll? :laugh:

And the Hamilton incident? It says that the majority of people aren't always right.

[harvick#1]

Webber, he lost the line, give up the position especially to a teammate who was obviously much faster at the end of the race, seems Webber failed to check his mirrors that Vettel was there.

Vettel needed to start moving into the middle of the track to get some angle to get the apex of the corner.

[slorydn1]

Could the mods please organise a poll on who was at fault: Vettel or Webber. Thanks.

Done :D

[Daniel]

Done :D
Can you close it down now?

50% of people say it's both their fault and 50% say it's a racing incident :)

[slorydn1]

Can you close it down now?

50% of people say it's both their fault and 50% say it's a racing incident :)

No :beer: :D :p :

[Valve Bounce]

I'll give you ONE more chance before I report you for trolling :rolleyes:

I SAY again that I have no problem with people voicing their opinions, I merely feel that even if 80% of people say Webber is at fault I don't feel that this proves anything to the point where you can label it as fact.

Like I said, continue with this rubbish that I'm trying to say that people can't have their opinion and I'm not going to react, I'm going to report you.

Go ahead! make my day!

[i_max2k2]

Seriously, I don't see how and why people can't just see who's fault it is, from a neutral perspective, when Martin Whitmarsh was talking with the BBC guys, he clearly said that he would not be hugging vettel as how RBR was after he came to the pits, for me that sums it up, it was clearly vettel's fault for that incident, and as how RBR is playing this, what it clearly means is they want Vettel for as long as they can, I'm sure now that webber would be looking for a drive next year, Vettel is a fine driver, but he is no schumi, I rated him higher before this race, he let his frustration come to him in that corner, he is young but great drivers keep there composure, he still has a long way to go.

[Sonic]

Nice pictures there Gary. I hope Vettel has a look at them and realised he cocked up. You have to know your rivals - there was no way that intimidation BS was gonna work on Webber.

[Daniel]

Nice pictures there Gary. I hope Vettel has a look at them and realised he cocked up. You have to know your rivals - there was no way that intimidation BS was gonna work on Webber.
If you look at it from Webber's onboard camera it tells a different story IMHO.

I'm still waiting for people to show where I said people weren't allowed to have polls or opinions btw :laugh:

[Valve Bounce]

If you look at it from Webber's onboard camera it tells a different story IMHO.

I'm still waiting for people to show where I said people weren't allowed to have polls or opinions btw :laugh:

Keep this up and I'll report you for counter trolling. :D :rotflmao:

On a more serious note, an on board camera shot can be misleading because it simply shows that the car on which the camera is mounted does not change direction, but everything around it moves. But the pictures posted above and originally supplied by Mr Walker clearly shows that there was a significant gap between Vettel's car and the white line before vettel made his move towards Webber.

I just wonder what the next step by RBR will be when Vettel decides to make a kamikaze move - will Webber be given prior instructions to yield?

[CNR]

Q: dose a team get any sort of reward for the youngest world champion
Q: bernie ecclestone picks a driver to win the world championship and he wins dose the team get a bonus

maybe it was the car that what you get for calling it randy mandy :p

[DazzlaF1]

I dont have an idea as to why Red Bull are saying that Webber was to blame, that was 100% Vettel's fault, sure Horner is talking about Webber going slowly (fuel saving mode) but that does not explain Vettel going directly into the side of him.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8713862.stm

[DazzlaF1]

maybe it was the car that what you get for calling it randy mandy :p

"How dare you Sebastian, my name is RB6-003, NOT F*****G MANDY!!!, for that I will make you suffer!"

[Robinho]

i have once or twice agreed with Eddie Jordan (i know it sounds crazy).

i have a few times agreed with Daniel.

i have been known to even agree with Ioan.

never knowingly have i ever agreed with all 3 at the same time.

all Vettels fault for me

[i_max2k2]

It seems Lewis also believes so -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8713780.stm


Hamilton, who took his first win of the year, sided with Webber and said: "I am very surprised with the move Vettel did.
"You have to be sensible. It was a dangerous move because I tried to go on the outside of him. He turned towards me, there was no reason to turn right.
"He did the same thing with Mark and unfortunately he took himself out. Mark has driven well in the last few races and I am glad he was able to do finish."

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh also felt that Vettel was to blame for the crash that handed his drivers a one-two finish.
"I was a little surprised by the extent to which the Red Bull team were cuddling Sebastian Vettel on the pit wall," he said.
"You have got to get your own ego behind the team and if you have a potential one-two finish in the race, don't do anything to jeopardise that."

[airshifter]

If you look at it from Webber's onboard camera it tells a different story IMHO.

I'm still waiting for people to show where I said people weren't allowed to have polls or opinions btw :laugh:

From Webbers onboard it does look as though he thinks about squeezing Seb onto the grass, but then thinks better of it as he slowly angles across the track. But it also clearly shows that if anything Webber was moving to the right, making more room for Vettel.

And without a doubt it shows that Webber did absolutely nothing in the way of causing the collision. Vettel ran into Webber.


If you have some onboard shots that would prove otherwise, post them up.


As for the poll, I fully understood your point, but I think you fail to understand mine. Poll or not, you seem to take offense that some (or in this case most) disagree with you. But at the same time, you are trying to convince that majority percentage that they are wrong, simply because you said so.


So I'll ask again, what sporting regulation did Webber violate? Vettel caused a collision, which is a breach of sporting regulations that could have been investigated.

[RJL25]

The Vettel supporters are getting quieter and quieter.. I think in the cold light of day as more and more evidence and opinions come out, the blindingly bloody obvious is starting to dawn upon even the most hardened Vettel fans - it was 100% Vettels fault.

[gloomyDAY]

I'm a Vettel fan and have stated that Vettel was at fault from the start.

I really fail to see how it's Webber's fault for maintaining his line down the straight.
Vettel's duty was to clear Webber before setting up for the next left-hand turn.

Japan 2008, not the first time Vettel has ran into Webber. Pressure just got to Vettel.

[Ranger]

If this was a football team and Vettel scored an own goal, the team would be blaming the goalkeeper.

Nevermind which driver's fault it was. The lead-up to and the catastrophic aftermath of those 10 seconds on lap 40 was all of their own doing, they deserve all the bad press that they are getting.

Canada will certainly be interesting.

[Daniel]

The Vettel supporters are getting quieter and quieter.. I think in the cold light of day as more and more evidence and opinions come out, the blindingly bloody obvious is starting to dawn upon even the most hardened Vettel fans - it was 100% Vettels fault.

Perhaps people have just given up trying to have an opinion?

[RJL25]

awww whaaa whaaa Daniel, would you like me to phone you the WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAmbulance?

New forum rule: If everyone else thinks your wrong then you may instigate the "everybody hates me" rule where by you may accuse everyone of not allowing you to have an opinion as opposed to simply admitting that you may have been wrong thus saving your ego from having to make such an admission.

[CNR]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/redbull/7790998/David-Coulthard-nothing-untoward-in-Sebastian-Vettels-crash-with-Mark-Webber.html


given the choice between an Australian who has been around for a decade or a young German who would become the sport’s youngest ever world champion if he wins this season, Red Bull’s Austrian parent company would prefer the latter. They are in the F1 business for marketing purposes and Vettel winning would almost certainly gain more exposure.

[Sonic]

LOL Malllen! :D

After all the expectations of seeing this kind of intra-team battle in McLaren its like car crash TV watching the Red Bull team spirit twitch and die live on TV.

[Daniel]

I'm not crying rjl25. I have my opinion and I stand by it.

[Sonic]

I'm not crying rjl25. I have my opinion and I stand by it.

As is your right. Personally I think its time to step back from this one; We've all stated our positions and clearly will not be swayed one way or the other.

My interest is now moving to the in team tension that will no doubt have doubled within the team over the last 3 races.

[RJL25]

Yes indeed, something I think we can all agree on is that the tension between Webber and Vettel is now huge, they appeared to previously be mates, perhaps not close mates but still mates. Now thats all screwed, they hate it each other, as it probably should be! They are going for the WDC!

The problem for RBR is they have now publically shown their hand in favour of Vettel, but the problem is Vettel is 5th in the championship now and Webber, the guy they don't want to win, is 1st!

I think Webber is going to be even more "on it" at the next grand prix. The last 3 races he has been racing on memory of being beaten in Malaysia and wanting to show Vettel whats-for, but now, he'll be even more angry and determined to shove it up the ass of not just Vettel, but basically the rest of RBR as well!

[ShiftingGears]

I don't think there is huge tension between the drivers. Funny thing is how all this would be avoided if both the drivers were told to turn up the fuel mixture so that Webber and Vettel would maintain their gap, and Vettel would stay out of the reach of the McLarens.

It was a situation poorly handled by RBR leading up to the accident, and poorly handled after the accident.

[Valve Bounce]

I think Webber is going to be even more "on it" at the next grand prix. The last 3 races he has been racing on memory of being beaten in Malaysia and wanting to show Vettel whats-for, but now, he'll be even more angry and determined to shove it up the ass of not just Vettel, but basically the rest of RBR as well!
No way! the right hand rear wheel nut is going to jam, suddenly Webber's fuel consumption will have skyrocketted and he must go into fuel conserve mode, and he will not even be able to see Vettel ahead of him on the track.

[Dave B]

78% say Vettel's fault, according to the poll here.

Anybody care to admit that James Allen's poll (80%) and Jon Noble's (79%) may not have been so skewed after all?

[ArrowsFA1]

My interest is now moving to the in team tension that will no doubt have doubled within the team over the last 3 races.
I think that tension was certainly a factor in the incident. We've seen a change in the happy "Little Britain" loving Vettel in recent times into a rather grumpy driver who seems to go into sulk mode when he's not leading and winning races.

Mark Webber's form this season (with the exception of Australia) has been superb and he's had the measure of the team's favourite son and, while I wouldn't expect Vettel to enjoy being beaten, his response has lacked maturity IMHO, possibly because of the cosseting he receives from Red Bull.

In Turkey we saw Webber leading from pole and Vettel's move could be seen as a result of frustration at seeing that happen yet again.

[Retro Formula 1]

78% say Vettel's fault, according to the poll here.

Anybody care to admit that James Allen's poll (80%) and Jon Noble's (79%) may not have been so skewed after all?

All those rascists Brits I would assume :rolleyes:

[ShiftingGears]

78% say Vettel's fault, according to the poll here.

Anybody care to admit that James Allen's poll (80%) and Jon Noble's (79%) may not have been so skewed after all?

Yep, but without the poll, who would've known? ;)


I am very interested to see how this Red Bull dilemma unfolds.

[555-04Q2]

78% say Vettel's fault, according to the poll here.

Anybody care to admit that James Allen's poll (80%) and Jon Noble's (79%) may not have been so skewed after all?

The term, "the majority of people are idiots" comes to mind.

[Ranger]

The term, "the majority of people are idiots" comes to mind.

Lewis Hamilton, Martin Brundle, David Coulthard, Anthony Davidson, Alex Wurz and Nico Rosberg all called it Vettel's fault.

If you'd like to tell me which F1 drivers past or present (apart from Helmut Marko) see it differently then I would like to know.

[Retro Formula 1]

Lewis Hamilton, Martin Brundle, David Coulthard, Anthony Davidson, Alex Wurz and Nico Rosberg all called it Vettel's fault.

If you'd like to tell me which F1 drivers past or present (apart from Helmut Marko) see it differently then I would like to know.

But, but, but, what about Eddie? Suddenly he's gone from a bit of a fool to the font of all knowledge :D

[Sonic]

It certainly shows the difference in the drivers work ethics;

When Mark was being beaten (for the first time in his career) he held his hands up and said on several occasions "hey, this guy is just quicker." But he's gone away over the winter and come back stronger and, aside from Aus, has seemed confident and assured.

Now Vettel is being beaten (for the first time in his career too) he's sulking, blaming mysterious chassis faults and getting reckless.

I know which of the two I would want in my team leading the charge for the WDC.

I guess this sums up why I dislike the RBR team; they are a marketing exercise on wheels, less interested in racing and too interested in having the right "face" win the title.

[Retro Formula 1]

It certainly shows the difference in the drivers work ethics;

When Mark was being beaten (for the first time in his career) he held his hands up and said on several occasions "hey, this guy is just quicker." But he's gone away over the winter and come back stronger and, aside from Aus, has seemed confident and assured.

Now Vettel is being beaten (for the first time in his career too) he's sulking, blaming mysterious chassis faults and getting reckless.

I know which of the two I would want in my team leading the charge for the WDC.

I guess this sums up why I dislike the RBR team; they are a marketing exercise on wheels, less interested in racing and too interested in having the right "face" win the title.

Up till now, I have had no problem with Red Bull. They have brought a lot of money into the sport which if they hadn't, would have given F1 a big headache in the last few years.

I also like their drivers. Mark is a no nonsense Aussie who refreshingly holds his hands up when he "runs out of talent" as he puts it and vettel promises to be a real star.

Now though, I'm not so sure. Webber is either proving himself a much better peddler than I gave him credit for or vettel is a bit over hyped. His reaction to the pressure Mark is putting him under is rather poor.

As for RBR, if Sebs stock has diminished slightly, theirs has plummeted after this weekend in my eyes.

[F1boat]

My only hope is that Red Bull are not stupid, that they are evaluating the reaction of the fans and will let their drivers to race honestly.

[Daniel]

As is your right. Personally I think its time to step back from this one; We've all stated our positions and clearly will not be swayed one way or the other.

My interest is now moving to the in team tension that will no doubt have doubled within the team over the last 3 races.

Thanks for respecting my rights :) Unlike some others :up:

[markabilly]

Up till now, I have had no problem with Red Bull. They have brought a lot of money into the sport which if they hadn't, would have given F1 a big headache in the last few years.

I also like their drivers. Mark is a no nonsense Aussie who refreshingly holds his hands up when he "runs out of talent" as he puts it and vettel promises to be a real star.

Now though, I'm not so sure. Webber is either proving himself a much better peddler than I gave him credit for or vettel is a bit over hyped. His reaction to the pressure Mark is putting him under is rather poor.

As for RBR, if Sebs stock has diminished slightly, theirs has plummeted after this weekend in my eyes.
webber has little to lose.

For me, it is always better to be the chaser with little to lose rather than be the chasee. I always thought that is why freddie flipped at at Mac, as he thought he was number one, but number two started closing the gap.

Now with Button, who seemed so relaxed and happy after the race, Button may feel not the pressure than Hamilton feels----hence the worried look on hamilton with his obvious mixed emotions that button did not seem to have.

Sebump seems to think he is el numero uno, but begins to feel threatened by his current situ.....but as you point out, me thinks the team does favor Seb...VERY MUCH.

Now on Sunday, I felt the fault clearly belonged to Webber....but after more thought, since F1 seems not to enforce any kind of blocking rule in a race (and that is what Webber was doing), then it is hard to put fault at his feet, for doing what is permitted.

And after looking carefully at the videos, I do not see what others are seeing, a deliberate turn across the nose....instead I see two cars moving very close together, with Seb doing the closing, the tire contact which instantly turns his car into Webber. So I see no basis for blaming vettel.

So if fault were to be found, I would put it on Webber, except he was doing what these rules (or I should say the manner of how the rules are enforced) permit him to do, regardless of my personal feelings as to what the rules should be.

My feeling is that racing is about passing, and not blocking.....but oh well.

At one point, Hamilton and Button appear to bump every so slightly when hamiton was making his last pass...if the area of contact had been the contact surface of the two racing tires, the ensuing accident would have been similar...... :eek:

and once again, the only votes that matter here belong to team red bull, and they have made it clear what they think---and even as to who they favor.

So I guess setting aside what i think the rules should be, :( it is just a racing incident....

But as to team, I already said, that i always gave way in such situs, because it was my hard earned AND NOT NEARLY ENOUGH cash that paid for my stuff.....I did enough damage to my stuff without the assistance of others, so i can see whay the team is pissed, but still, I think the comments clearly show who they love and who they do not....much as it was with hamilton and FA at the mac...

and since webber has so little to lose....i think he will be in the lead in points at the end of the season, unless he has "car problems"...but may be not the WDC.

[SGWilko]

All those rascists Brits I would assume :rolleyes:

WHat is racist about an F1 accident, exactly????

[Daniel]

I suspect that they meant to say biased rather than racist.

[Dave B]

And after looking carefully at the videos, I do not see what others are seeing, a deliberate turn across the nose....instead I see two cars moving very close together, with Seb doing the closing, the tire contact which instantly turns his car into Webber. So I see no basis for blaming vettel.
I'm not saying that Vettel did it deliberately, but it was certainly his fault. He chose to go down the narrow gap to the left of Webber's car, when there was plenty of room to the right. He needed to be sure he could handle the outcome, and one way or another he lost the car.

I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he didn't deliberately crash into his team mate - I sincerely hope there's nobody on the grid who would do that - but he needs to man up and accept the blame for the contact.

[Daniel]

I agree with you mostly Dave, but you have to also see that the movement wasn't the most sudden movement ever seen in F1 and Vettel was ahead. I certainly wouldn t blame Webber only, only a bonehead would do that but I still feel that he could and should have given Seb more room. Hence why I voted that both were at fault.

[ArrowsFA1]

Red Bull Racing has conceded that it was wrong to pin the blame on Mark Webber for the clash with team-mate Sebastian Vettel in Turkey last weekend - with the team now believing their coming-together was simply an 'unnecessary' racing accident...
...Such has been the level of criticism aimed at the team that Horner has also written an open letter to fans on Red Bull Racing's website forum...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84085

[Sonic]

So now that's all blown over what shall we talk about next? Pikies at the hairpin in Canada? ;) :D

[F1boat]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84085

I saw the article, but in the interview Horner rather evaded this question, than deny that they blame Mark.

[Robinho]

I suspect that they meant to say biased rather than racist.

i can't see how the Brits can be biased in this one, aren't we supposed to hate the Germand AND the Australians?

[Daniel]

i can't see how the Brits can be biased in this one, aren't we supposed to hate the Germand AND the Australians?
How many world wars have you fought against Australia? ;)

[Daniel]

I saw the article, but in the interview Horner rather evaded this question, than deny that they blame Mark.
The first paragraph in that article is pure opinion as well as the title of the article.....

At no point does he say "It's completely Vettel's fault" as the title seems to suggest, all he does is say that they pinned too much of the blame on Webber.

This is pisspoor journalism. Tbh Horner hasn't changed his worlds all that much, but the media has changed from "OMFG he's blaming it on Webber!!!! WTF?!?!?!?!" to "OMG LOL now he's blaming it on Vettel like we said he should!l!" when all Horner's done has gone from saying that he believes Webber to be mainly at fault to saying that he thinks it's more along the lines of a 50:50 accident or perhaps even going towards giving Seb a little more of the blame.

Pissweak sensationalist journalism at its best.

[Robinho]

How many world wars have you fought against Australia? ;)

thats only cos we're too lazy to go all the way over there to have a fight! ;)

[Retro Formula 1]

thats only cos we're too lazy to go all the way over there to have a fight! ;)

Too true :D

It was a tongue in cheek remark against some of the childish claims by some members but perhaps understandable how it can be misunderstood. Sorry.

Too often it's the easy way out to blame bias rather than acknowledge reality ;)

[tintop]

Helmut Marko and the whole Red Bull team has to protect their investment, the chosen one, the golden boy, the wunderkid, the next Schumi. This accident has exposed how obvious it is that he is nr.1 guy in that team.
Perfect explanation of the situation in the following link.

http://www.autosport.com/features/article.php/id/2842



http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84073



Making it as obvious as possible without actually saying it, that vettel was to blame.

Here are some pictures for you.

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/7280/fghgf.jpg

You know, it is getting quite laughable that some people are still saying this is not 100% vettels fault. Show some objectivity. I know your ego is not letting you backtrack on your comments, but some people are really looking quite silly.

Great pics, thanks- can't believe that the team initially blamed Webber, what a joke.

[markabilly]

Great pics, thanks- can't believe that the team initially blamed Webber, what a joke.
All the last photo shows is the result of the tire to tire contact pulling the front of vettel's car towards webber, as vettel's car begins to spin out of control.

if you look carefully in photo 4, you will see vettel has already turned his front wheels away from webber's path to correct the slide
(probably instinctive response to the slide)

at best misleading, and at worst, dishonest.

the only thing silly is how some people view this string of photos as showing the accident is vettel's fault :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

thats only cos we're too lazy to go all the way over there to have a fight! ;)
Don't get into this argument. Historically the British don't mind going anywhere as long as there's money in it for them :)

[CNR]

http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/Christian-Horner--Turkish-GP-Debrief-021242855717795?refmod=ContentFeed&refmodpos=A2

full interview

[Valve Bounce]

How many world wars have you fought against Australia? ;)

The Bodyline series was the first; not sure how many since.

[markabilly]

Maybe this video shows it abit clearer and shows the direction change by Vettel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFnvLMOsKHw

I don't see why Webber was obliged to give Seb anymore room, and people have said that Vettel changed direction because he wanted to enter the breaking zone on the clean side of the track. Tough, because Webber was there and had every right to be there. This is racing and if Vettel decides to overtake on the inside heading into a corner, he either has to learn to get past the other driver first before deciding which part of the track he wishes to be on, or he breaks earlier like anyone else who made that decision. Face it guys, he fooked it up and the vast majority of fans, ex/current racing drivers direct the blame firmly at him. Even Red Bull have changed their statements due to the overwhelming publicity through media outlets and fans voicing their support for Webber.


THANKS

I Looked again and WHAT DOES IT SHOW??

WEBBER TURNING HIS WHEEL TOWARD VETTEL and then the contact. It also shows that unlike Vettel, Webber had full view of the placement of his car and Vettel, as once he is in front, he can not readily see to the side, not nearly as good as Webber.

This vid shows where vettel turns his wheel slightly towards Webber, then continues straight without contact or even having webber in the view of the camera, then turning his steering away from webber as the contact is made:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elpTVCAJBZk&feature=related

it also shows that webber forced vettel unto the white line and then moved away as though conceding the pass........

the next video at the 8 second mark as Vettel passes, webber moves his steering wheel away from vettel as though moving over, but then stops it, holds it straight as the wheels are becoming interlocked, and then turns the steering into Vettel and then the contact occurs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygMWcyB-miE&feature=related

And at the 8 second mark, webber can clearly see, unlike Vettel, that the two wheels are becoming interlocked, and then right at the 9-10 second mark, he turns his steering wheel wheel into Seb, and at ten second mark to 11 second mark, the game is over, with tire smoke and all......


I take it all back when I gave ole chopper the benefit of the doubt and said racing incident.

The chopper chopped into the side of Vettel, by actually moving his steering wheel towards Vettel to ensure the contact, contact that Webber knew was likely to happen without any attempt at an evasive manuever...... :grenade:

So I take back my doubts and say:

Face guys, once again,
WEBBER IS A CHEATER CHOPPER , ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE :rotflmao: :roll: :rotflmao:

and no amount of sales revenue for Red Cow, will ever change that

Here's to you, Mr. Henners, a toast of the good stuff....but not no red bull.... :beer:

[Ari]

THANKS

I Looked again and WHAT DOES IT SHOW??

WEBBER TURNING HIS WHEEL TOWARD VETTEL and then the contact. It also shows that unlike Vettel, Webber had full view of the placement of his car and Vettel, as once he is in front, he can not readily see to the side, not nearly as good as Webber.

This vid shows where vettel turns his wheel slightly towards Webber, then continues straight without contact or even having webber in the view of the camera, then turning his steering away from webber as the contact is made:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elpTVCAJBZk&feature=related

it also shows that webber forced vettel unto the white line and then moved away as though conceding the pass........

the next video at the 8 second mark as Vettel passes, webber moves his steering wheel away from vettel as though moving over, but then stops it, holds it straight as the wheels are becoming interlocked, and then turns the steering into Vettel and then the contact occurs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygMWcyB-miE&feature=related

And at the 8 second mark, webber can clearly see, unlike Vettel, that the two wheels are becoming interlocked, and then right at the 9-10 second mark, he turns his steering wheel wheel into Seb, and at ten second mark to 11 second mark, the game is over, with tire smoke and all......


I take it all back when I gave ole chopper the benefit of the doubt and said racing incident.

The chopper chopped into the side of Vettel, by actually moving his steering wheel towards Vettel to ensure the contact, contact that Webber knew was likely to happen without any attempt at an evasive manuever...... :grenade:

So I take back my doubts and say:

Face guys, once again,
WEBBER IS A CHEATER CHOPPER , ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE :rotflmao: :roll: :rotflmao:

and no amount of sales revenue for Red Cow, will ever change that

Here's to you, Mr. Henners, a toast of the good stuff....but not no red bull.... :beer:

I've watched that video... you're on drugs.

Webber DID move toward Vettel early then moved back and gave him racing room.

Webber then travelled absolutely straight and held his line. Vettel got nervous and started to push Webber out.

Webber didn't budge.

Vettel pushed Webber further right as his wheels collided with Webber. You can clearly see Webber steer away from Vettel just as it's about to happen but it was too late.

It's really simple. Webber gave space and a lane, Vettel needed to be good enough to travel down that lane then pull it up and take the corner at a tight apex. Others would have done this no problems at all.

Vettel flinched. He got scared and turned into Webber. The entire F1 world see's it this way. The only reason the team don't and are yelling MOVE MOVE is because they want their blonde haired marketing machine to the World Champion.

As Autosport said.... Webbers current purple patch and find of speed is quite inconvenient.

[i_max2k2]

All the last photo shows is the result of the tire to tire contact pulling the front of vettel's car towards webber, as vettel's car begins to spin out of control.

if you look carefully in photo 4, you will see vettel has already turned his front wheels away from webber's path to correct the slide
(probably instinctive response to the slide)

at best misleading, and at worst, dishonest.

the only thing silly is how some people view this string of photos as showing the accident is vettel's fault :rolleyes:

Yes to correct the slide after his rear tire had made contact, that is what every driver in the world will do to correct his car, heck even I would have done the same :D , but anyway the video doesn't get better, I don't understand how anyone can not see seb coming into webber, if you have been given limited room to play with you do that, you don't start turning in so aggressively, my understanding is Vettel's intimidating move on webber went wrong here, he just cound'nt get his car turn the other way on the dirty side, he should have know that could happen. But anyway its 90% vettel and 10% a racing incident, but none whatsoever webber. I was a fan of Vettel until this race, and now I'm not going to be supporting the sissy golden boy. He's way too arrogant and immatured to be counted anywhere near the greats.

[penagate]

Failing to avoid an avoidable accident is not the same as causing one.
Both drivers could have avoided making contact but in the end it was Vettel who actually initiated the collision.

There is little point in analysing something that happened in a matter of seconds as though both drivers had all the time in the world to consider their next move. This crash was more about the predetermined psychological mindset of the drivers than anything else. Vettel played the aggressor while Webber held his line and refused to be intimidated. Ultimately their egos collided well before their cars did.

The move itself will be debated for years (read the comments on Youtube videos of Senna and Prost's collisions — one driver has passed on and the other retired and yet people still argue over who was in the right). Vettel has done himself no favours and will now be on the back foot. Webber has an outright championship lead but may be doubting his position within the team. In the end we are the winners — it was a great race to watch and sets us up for some fireworks throughout the rest of the season.

[markabilly]

I've watched that video... you're on drugs.

Webber DID move toward Vettel early then moved back and gave him racing room.

Webber then travelled absolutely straight and held his line. Vettel got nervous and started to push Webber out.

Webber didn't budge.

Vettel pushed Webber further right as his wheels collided with Webber. You can clearly see Webber steer away from Vettel just as it's about to happen but it was too late.

.


Better watch all three videos, even do a little stop action.

webber did move towards him as they were going up the hill, and vettell puts his wheels on the white line to avoid the contact and then webber starts to move away as though conceding the pass and the ground, then vettle moves towards him, but then Webber holds steady until right before the contact.

webber holds steady even as the wheels become interlocked and it is clear that Vettel is moving faster than webber.

Right before the two tires touch, Webber then turns his steering into Vettel with a quick move or flick of the wrists, so quick you almost need to slow mo it to see it, so as to jink the car over and then he straightens the wheel as contact is made

Webber saw this accident beginning to happen right in front of him, and did not flick his wrists to move the wheel to the opposite side, but instead moved further in to Vettel.

CHEATER CHOPPER WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE GUTS TO ADMIT THE TRUTH

Only a blind man can not see this, and once it is called to your attention, any honest man would admit it; Webber chopped into vettel rather than move away from the accident he clearly saw was going to happen if he did not.

If it were my team, i might want to fire somebody for this damage.....the gutless cheater chopper.... :down:

So no matter how bad it hurts the Aussies and fellow brits and brit lovers everywhere, and no matter how much I dislike red bull, for what they did to my man, Vettel has no fault and 100% fault on Wbber, even reckless disregard and intentional conduct, no different than what cost MS a second place in the WDC

[Valve Bounce]

All the last photo shows is the result of the tire to tire contact pulling the front of vettel's car towards webber, as vettel's car begins to spin out of control.

if you look carefully in photo 4, you will see vettel has already turned his front wheels away from webber's path to correct the slide
(probably instinctive response to the slide)

at best misleading, and at worst, dishonest.

the only thing silly is how some people view this string of photos as showing the accident is vettel's fault :rolleyes:

I disagree. The first and second photos clearly show that Vettel had enough room to pass. The third photo shows the distance indicated in red greatly increased as Vettel turns in front of Webber before he is clear.

However, it is your prerogative to view the photos and videos and interpret them any way you wish. So how this can be construed as misleading or dishonest is in itself an incorrect premise.

Who you wish to identify is at blame is entirely your decision, same as anyone who now thinks both are to blame or that Vettel is to blame.

[Valve Bounce]

THANKS

I Looked again and WHAT DOES IT SHOW??

WEBBER TURNING HIS WHEEL TOWARD VETTEL and then the contact. It also shows that unlike Vettel, Webber had full view of the placement of his car and Vettel, as once he is in front, he can not readily see to the side, not nearly as good as Webber.

This vid shows where vettel turns his wheel slightly towards Webber, then continues straight without contact or even having webber in the view of the camera, then turning his steering away from webber as the contact is made:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elpTVCAJBZk&feature=related

it also shows that webber forced vettel unto the white line and then moved away as though conceding the pass........

the next video at the 8 second mark as Vettel passes, webber moves his steering wheel away from vettel as though moving over, but then stops it, holds it straight as the wheels are becoming interlocked, and then turns the steering into Vettel and then the contact occurs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygMWcyB-miE&feature=related

And at the 8 second mark, webber can clearly see, unlike Vettel, that the two wheels are becoming interlocked, and then right at the 9-10 second mark, he turns his steering wheel wheel into Seb, and at ten second mark to 11 second mark, the game is over, with tire smoke and all......


I take it all back when I gave ole chopper the benefit of the doubt and said racing incident.

The chopper chopped into the side of Vettel, by actually moving his steering wheel towards Vettel to ensure the contact, contact that Webber knew was likely to happen without any attempt at an evasive manuever...... :grenade:

So I take back my doubts and say:

Face guys, once again,
WEBBER IS A CHEATER CHOPPER , ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE :rotflmao: :roll: :rotflmao:

and no amount of sales revenue for Red Cow, will ever change that

Here's to you, Mr. Henners, a toast of the good stuff....but not no red bull.... :beer:

I have watched both videos several times, including Webbers steering wheel, at the times that you allege he turned towards Vettel.

I see no such thing.

You can view things anyway you wish, but I can't say that I support your view.

[Valve Bounce]

Better watch all three videos, even do a little stop action.

webber did move towards him as they were going up the hill, and vettell puts his wheels on the white line to avoid the contact and then webber starts to move away as though conceding the pass and the ground, then vettle moves towards him, but then Webber holds steady until right before the contact.

webber holds steady even as the wheels become interlocked and it is clear that Vettel is moving faster than webber.

Right before the two tires touch, Webber then turns his steering into Vettel with a quick move or flick of the wrists, so quick you almost need to slow mo it to see it, so as to jink the car over and then he straightens the wheel as contact is made

Webber saw this accident beginning to happen right in front of him, and did not flick his wrists to move the wheel to the opposite side, but instead moved further in to Vettel.

CHEATER CHOPPER WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE GUTS TO ADMIT THE TRUTH

Only a blind man can not see this, and once it is called to your attention, any honest man would admit it; Webber chopped into vettel rather than move away from the accident he clearly saw was going to happen if he did not.

If it were my team, i might want to fire somebody for this damage.....the gutless cheater chopper.... :down:

So no matter how bad it hurts the Aussies and fellow brits and brit lovers everywhere, and no matter how much I dislike red bull, for what they did to my man, Vettel has no fault and 100% fault on Wbber, even reckless disregard and intentional conduct, no different than what cost MS a second place in the WDC

I honestly cannot admit your viewpoint. But good luck to you - I think at least 5 guys here agree with you and are right. Unfortunately, 66 of them (so far) are wrong .

[truefan72]

damn, hit the wrong button, meant to say Vettel, so that 7th vote is an out-lier

[i_max2k2]

Only a blind man can not see this, and once it is called to your attention, any honest man would admit it; Webber chopped into vettel rather than move away from the accident he clearly saw was going to happen if he did not.




Couldn't have said it better than you, seriously, with so many drivers people, even Lewis Hamilton, whom I will give my vote of confidence, who also probably had the best view, said it was Vettel's fault, so 95% of the people are blind and dishonest, seriously just go through all the video's again, and look at them from a neutral perspective, and then try to form your opinion.

[markabilly]

I disagree. The first and second photos clearly show that Vettel had enough room to pass. The third photo shows the distance indicated in red greatly increased as Vettel turns in front of Webber before he is clear.

However, it is your prerogative to view the photos and videos and interpret them any way you wish. So how this can be construed as misleading or dishonest is in itself an incorrect premise.

Who you wish to identify is at blame is entirely your decision, same as anyone who now thinks both are to blame or that Vettel is to blame.


The in-car videos show it very clearly, with no room for doubt, that as the front wheel is becoming interlocked and is almost touching Vettels tire, --something which Webber has the clear view of, unlike Vettel, that Webber flicks the steering to the left, which ensures the tire to tire contact will occur.

A flick in the opposite direction, and there is no contact or the contact is reduced.

What is also clear is that Webber squeezes Vettel to the white line, and as they top the hill as Vettel now has his front wheel past Webber's is that Webber moves over away from Vettel as to concede position and ground.

But then Webber straightens and never moves further to the right, lets his front wheel become interlocked and gives the wheel a flick to the left, ensuring contact

So clear, even a blind man can see, except those so blinded by their idolarity or their ego. This is not a popuralrity contest determined by votes, but the objective evidence in living color

Yep on Monday I was clearly in the racing incident camp, but on Tuesday evening, I saw the light so now, I am in the camp of 100% webber at fault,
the ole cheater chopper done it again, without penalty and without the guts to admit it..

[markabilly]

Another way you could view the situatiom Markabilly, would be to imagine Vettel in this situation was Lewis Hamilton. I can just imagine what your stance would be if that was the case. The beauty of this whole incident for me is the fact that I am a fan of neither driver and can view it with impartiality, and can see it for what it is. ;)
And neither am I. Indeed, I have not been a fan, but something of an anti-fan of Red Bull, Seb and Webber. But when given the choice, I would pick Webber over the other two. All you need do is look at the caption thread.

I would defend Hamilton, just as I defended Hamilton when at Spa, Hamilton was robbed of a victory due to the idiots not knowing the difference of being on a wet track with dry tires, and a dry track...... :rolleyes:

No, unlike many whiners, I am not into having a popularity contest control my opinions, so am I happy to stand by myself, and say, cheater chopper webber, you chop so well and so deceitful, everybody loves you

But thanks again, Mr. Henners, without your posting, I would not have looked again and noticed that quick flick of the wrists as ole chopper chopped again... :D :D

and it explains webbers worried look at the post race interview

[markabilly]

damn, hit the wrong button, meant to say Vettel, so that 7th vote is an out-lier
dont feel bad, i voted racing incident, but at least you have more fools with you, then I have among the other two with me.... :D

But at least neither you nor I, need worry about our British and Aussie sales revenue going down, for telling it like it is.....such that we got to lie to save those pennies from going bye, bye...

[CNR]

lets give Dietrich the last word
"$hit happens… we shouldn’t talk about the past, but concentrate on the future

http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/Christian-Horner--Turkish-GP-Debrief-021242855717795?refmod=ContentFeed&refmodpos=A2

[Retro Formula 1]

Gents. We will not get anywhere with this chap. Markability will refuse to be reasoned with so what is the point of trying. You could posess all the data in the world and a signed confession from Seb and he still wouldn't change his mind so why continue trying.

There is no enjoyment in continuing a dialogue and best just to accept Markability is correct on all points he makes and accept his reality in it's entireity.

[ArrowsFA1]

In another thread AndyL made this point:

...the guy on the dirty line has to brake earlier and as a result fails to complete the pass.
It's a good point.

Mark Webber is a skillful racing driver. He obviously didn't want to lose the lead, but if he had to then Vettel was going to have to work hard to earn it.

By positioning his car where he did out of the previous turn Webber gave Vettel two options - inside or outside pass. Vettel, knowing a left-hander was coming up, chose inside. It was the risky option because it put him on the dirty line. His tyres would pick up the dirt and so make it more difficult to complete the pass and make the next corner cleanly.

Webber knew all of this. Vettel had chosen the option that gave Webber the best chance of regaining the position, and Vettel knew this too.

So, with Vettel slightly ahead of Webber before either of them had reached the braking zone what could have happened? Well, my guess is that Webber would have moved across to the right entering the braking zone, thus positioning himself to take the ideal line through the next corner. Vettel, by that point, would have been ahead but with dirty tyres and off the ideal line. It may have been a bit of a scramble but Vettel probably would have emerged from the left-hander ahead. Still, Webber would have done what he could to defend his lead cleanly.

Vettel's actions, not Webber's, ensured things didn't work out this way.

[TMorel]

My mum raised an interesting point regarding Vettels "immature" reaction and blaming Webber. Did Seb believe that team orders had been applied and Mark would "put on a bit of a show" then pull over and let him past. If so, then you can see were Vettel was coming from with his reaction after the accident "what the hell were you thinking, you were told to let me thru, the boss will hang you out to dry you crazy fool"*

It's about the only reason I can see why he'd behave that way.

*apparantly this is based on watching me and my brother stitch each other up over the years when we'd previously agreed to work together ;)

[Sonic]

*yawns* ;)

[RJL25]

Here we have Markabilly refusing to accept defeat and is desperately attempting to convince 68 people (so far) who believe he is wrong that they are completely blind and are totally wrong.

good luck with that Markabilly, but maybe, juuuuuust maybe, you should concede defeat and slink away... You dissagree with the majority, and thats fine, but clearly your not going to convince everyone else of your views so just give it up mate

[Valve Bounce]

So clear, even a blind man can see, except those so blinded by their idolarity or their ego. This is not a popuralrity contest determined by votes, but the objective evidence in living color

Yep on Monday I was clearly in the racing incident camp, but on Tuesday evening, I saw the light so now, I am in the camp of 100% webber at fault,
the ole cheater chopper done it again, without penalty and without the guts to admit it..

I posted this thread so that guys here can discuss this incident in a civilised manner. Guys who insisted that Webber was at fault now feel that it may have been 50-50. But all the discussions so far have been carried out without insults.

That you have chosen my thread to not only force your view onto others but then to insult one of the drivers, I find very disappointing. In fact, I think you are the only one here who sought to degenerate into insulting either driver.

I want to say right now, quite clearly, that I dissociate myself from any discussion with you on this subject. I would urge everyone else to disregard anything that I may have posted in answer to this forum member.

[555-04Q2]

Lewis Hamilton, Martin Brundle, David Coulthard, Anthony Davidson, Alex Wurz and Nico Rosberg all called it Vettel's fault.

If you'd like to tell me which F1 drivers past or present (apart from Helmut Marko) see it differently then I would like to know.

I thought my post was pretty straight forward and clear to understand. It shouldn't need explaining.

[Valve Bounce]

I agree with you mostly Dave, but you have to also see that the movement wasn't the most sudden movement ever seen in F1 and Vettel was ahead. I certainly wouldn t blame Webber only, only a bonehead would do that but I still feel that he could and should have given Seb more room. Hence why I voted that both were at fault.

This is very interesting because this was my original opinion. However, when I reviewed the situation in its entirety, I voted otherwise. But, thanks for the honesty in your views.

[555-04Q2]

dont feel bad, i voted racing incident, but at least you have more fools with you, then I have among the other two with me.... :D

Hey, I am one of those two. And you will address me as Mr Fool or you will have your eyes plucked out :p :

[SGWilko]

THANKS

I Looked again and WHAT DOES IT SHOW??

WEBBER TURNING HIS WHEEL TOWARD VETTEL and then the contact. It also shows that unlike Vettel, Webber had full view of the placement of his car and Vettel, as once he is in front, he can not readily see to the side, not nearly as good as Webber.

This vid shows where vettel turns his wheel slightly towards Webber, then continues straight without contact or even having webber in the view of the camera, then turning his steering away from webber as the contact is made:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elpTVCAJBZk&feature=related

it also shows that webber forced vettel unto the white line and then moved away as though conceding the pass........

the next video at the 8 second mark as Vettel passes, webber moves his steering wheel away from vettel as though moving over, but then stops it, holds it straight as the wheels are becoming interlocked, and then turns the steering into Vettel and then the contact occurs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygMWcyB-miE&feature=related

And at the 8 second mark, webber can clearly see, unlike Vettel, that the two wheels are becoming interlocked, and then right at the 9-10 second mark, he turns his steering wheel wheel into Seb, and at ten second mark to 11 second mark, the game is over, with tire smoke and all......


I take it all back when I gave ole chopper the benefit of the doubt and said racing incident.

The chopper chopped into the side of Vettel, by actually moving his steering wheel towards Vettel to ensure the contact, contact that Webber knew was likely to happen without any attempt at an evasive manuever...... :grenade:

So I take back my doubts and say:

Face guys, once again,
WEBBER IS A CHEATER CHOPPER , ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE :rotflmao: :roll: :rotflmao:

and no amount of sales revenue for Red Cow, will ever change that

Here's to you, Mr. Henners, a toast of the good stuff....but not no red bull.... :beer:

Billy, I can see the words on the screen - but it's all just noise.....

[SGWilko]

I've watched that video... you're on drugs.



Probably a bad batch of Kool Aid....

[Daniel]

This is very interesting because this was my original opinion. However, when I reviewed the situation in its entirety, I voted otherwise. But, thanks for the honesty in your views.

And thanks for not accusing me of not wanting a poll....

I've never denied that Vettel shared a large part of the blame. I just don't feel that it's right for a driver who's behind to just hold their line if it means having an accident, especially with a team mate. If you believe that Webber is 0% to blame then this can only mean that you think Vettel intentionally crashed into Webber on purpose which is just unthinkable.

[markabilly]

Hey, I am one of those two. And you will address me as Mr Fool or you will have your eyes plucked out :p :
not much loss, as i already went blind-as others around here seem to think--but what they do not know is twas from "other activities" having not anything to do with kool aid, Mr Fool. :eek:

Such an backlash, demos well the love for their hero, chopper, versus that evil german austrian empire and its driver :vader:

And anyone who does not see webbers quick flick-moving the wheel towards Vettel--and back again--- of the steering wheel into vettel such that it ensures contact a micosecond later....well...... :laugh:

Now some might say, well now, that movement was from the contact, but at the point he moves his hands, there has been no contact and the contact would have forced his steering wheel the other way, as it was only partial contact with the racing surface of both tires, not a complete overlap

Perhaps Webber's intent was to bump the outside wheels together due to anger of being passed...but it was clearly deliberate


unlike others, when wrong, I have no problem admitting same....

Thanks Henners :up:

[markabilly]

and speaking of evil empires, all those video links are now gone, thank you, F1 management

Must be conspiring with Mr. Chopper and red bull, to keep those red bull sales from plummenting to zero.... :rotflmao:

[SGWilko]

And thanks for not accusing me of not wanting a poll....

I've never denied that Vettel shared a large part of the blame. I just don't feel that it's right for a driver who's behind to just hold their line if it means having an accident, especially with a team mate. If you believe that Webber is 0% to blame then this can only mean that you think Vettel intentionally crashed into Webber on purpose which is just unthinkable.

It matters not whether Vettel intended the collision or not. I am sure it was a mistake, a misjudgement or merely a loss of control.

But.

He caused it, therefore the blame lies with him.

[wedge]

A racing incident, both were to blame - Vettel slightly more so, say 55-60%. I don't believe either driver deserves greater blame.

[SGWilko]

and speaking of evil empires, all those video links are now gone, thank you, F1 management

Must be conspiring with Mr. Chopper and red bull, to keep those red bull sales from plummenting to zero.... :rotflmao:

Red Bull drinks are liked by too many morons - the type you see vomiting in the street outside the local Whetherspoons pub on a Friday/Saturday night.

Sod the sports aspect, after all, there is lucozade for the serious sportsperson.

[SGWilko]

A racing incident, both were to blame - Vettel slightly more so, say 55-60%. I don't believe either driver deserves greater blame.

No, Mark was rightly defending his lead. SOmething the leader is entitled to do.

Seb chose which side to attempt the pass.

Mark kept the line tight, but did not squeeze Seb.

Seb did the squeezing, as he knew the pass would only stick if he could brake.

Now, the videos tell us that there was an immense amount of dust kicked up br Seb's tyres, he will have been seriously compromised in the braking zone due to dirty tyres.

I seriously doubt his ability to outbrake Mark.

Mark knew that.

Which is why he positioned his car as he did - Enough room for Seb, but no more.

Even Mark's team understand this now.

[markabilly]

Red Bull drinks are liked by too many morons - the type you see vomiting in the street outside the local Whetherspoons pub on a Friday/Saturday night.

Sod the sports aspect, after all, there is lucozade for the serious sportsperson.
i try to avoid viewing such special, intimate moments, even when on Utube

and i can not stand that stuff, only kool aid for me

[markabilly]

In another thread AndyL made this point:

It's a good point.

Mark Webber is a skillful racing driver. He obviously didn't want to lose the lead, but if he had to then Vettel was going to have to work hard to earn it.

By positioning his car where he did out of the previous turn Webber gave Vettel two options - inside or outside pass. Vettel, knowing a left-hander was coming up, chose inside. It was the risky option because it put him on the dirty line. His tyres would pick up the dirt and so make it more difficult to complete the pass and make the next corner cleanly.

Webber knew all of this. Vettel had chosen the option that gave Webber the best chance of regaining the position, and Vettel knew this too.

So, with Vettel slightly ahead of Webber before either of them had reached the braking zone what could have happened? Well, my guess is that Webber would have moved across to the right entering the braking zone, thus positioning himself to take the ideal line through the next corner. Vettel, by that point, would have been ahead but with dirty tyres and off the ideal line. It may have been a bit of a scramble but Vettel probably would have emerged from the left-hander ahead.
Vettel's actions, not Webber's, ensured things didn't work out this way.
my thought would be the smart move would be to move over, let vettel go a head, cut down behind Vettel
and move to the inside as vettel was going to have a tough time sticking into the racing line and making the corner at that speed, and if not that corner, then the next

and when your front wheels are about to touch the rear wheels of another car, that does not mean, that the other car is "slightly ahead"

[Bagwan]

[quote="SGWilko"]No, Mark was rightly defending his lead. SOmething the leader is entitled to do.
Mark knew that.
[quote]

Seb was leading going into the corner .

[Big Ben]

Hamilton. He was making Vettel nervous.

[SGWilko]

Seb was leading going into the corner .

They were nowhere near the corner, Seb was still completing - but had not completed - the move.

He could not therefore have been leading going into the corner.

It's like trying to overtake on the final straight at Canada, you can get a run on the guy in front on the outside, but if you are not far enough ahead of him, you'll end up over the kurbs and into the wall. You have to own the corner - Seb didn't.

[SGWilko]

Hamilton. He was making Vettel nervous.

What, more so than the first 40 or so laps?

Poppycock.

[Big Ben]

Poppycock.

I don't know what poppycock is but sounds well-suited for my post :laugh:

[SGWilko]

I don't know what poppycock is but sounds well-suited for my post :laugh:

Poppycock, cobblers, cockermeemie - all words for rubbish!

It's a non offensive method of saying b0ll0cks. ;)

[markabilly]

watch carefully, and you will see the slight movement to to the left via webber's steering wheel where he closes the gap prior to the contact. It is in only one of the last two frames:

http://gickr.com/results4/anim_679fba94-785c-0cc4-e9be-8cc0ce8cce89.gif

[markabilly]

inthis one as the tires touch one can see webber turning slightly away but too late--note the smoke starting from the contact as well as the damaged rim protruding from the tire
http://gyazo.com/f916a4127c804c7fe46e328bfef81d41.png

[SGWilko]

watch carefully, and you will see the slight movement to to the left via webber's steering wheel where he closes the gap prior to the contact. It is in only one of the last two frames:

http://gickr.com/results4/anim_679fba94-785c-0cc4-e9be-8cc0ce8cce89.gif

Perhaps we could have the same from Vettels cockpit.....

[markabilly]

and on the white line as the front wheels begin to pass each other--and note the slight movement of Vettel towards webber in the steering as webber is actually moving over very slightly, there is no contact or interlocked wheels, then webber stops moving over and then flicks the wheel towards Vettel, then contact---had webber continued moving over, there would have been no accident:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4662332820_38c589cd7b_b.jpg

[JimClarkFan]

At first I thought it was Vettel's fault, but looking at it again, Webber should have gien way and preserved a team 1-2 rather than put both of them at risk of going off. It was a bold move by Vettel, but Webber defended too hard.

[SGWilko]

and on the white line as the front wheels begin to pass each other:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4662332820_38c589cd7b_b.jpg

On the line, just, but not off the track. He had the room.

Look at the angle of Seb's steering wheel. That's not straight, is it?

[SGWilko]

At first I thought it was Vettel's fault, but looking at it again, Webber should have gien way and preserved a team 1-2 rather than put both of them at risk of going off. It was a bold move by Vettel, but Webber defended too hard.

You cannot forcibly barge another car out the way. F1 is non contact - or it is supposed to be at least.

[markabilly]

On the line, just, but not off the track. He had the room.

Look at the angle of Seb's steering wheel. That's not straight, is it?
I pointed that out.
Earlier vettel had his front wheel much farther over on the white line, and then both started moving to the right, very slightly, with an almost constant gap until webber STOPS giving room, holds it straight for about a second, gives it the flick to the left, then straight again as contact was made.

In this photo, Vettel already going to the right and there is no contact until a few feet over to the right, after webber stops moving and gives it the flick to the left.

If webber was holding a straight line, the accident would have happened immediately before this photo--instead it happens a few seconds later, when webber changed his line from moving to the right, to going straight, to giving it the flick to the left

[martinbalmer]

I can't help but post despite trying not to get drawn into this.

Unfortunately the clips themselves have now been removed from YouTube so I can't watch them again and will just refer to on-board shots in general.

When watching from the on-board camera it is usual to see slight movement of the steering wheel left and right even when the car is travelling in an apparent straight line. So if you do take a snap-shot frame of EITHER car, the steering wheel may well be tilted one way or the other but, as it is a single frame, doesn't really indicate much since there is no clue of time or what happened a split second before and after.

From actually watching it, Vettel steered towards Webber in a bid to give himself a better line into the next corner. From that I think that it is fair to say that Vettel caused the accident - not because he was attempting to pass but because as he edged in front he started moving over.

From the point of view of avoiding the accident (which is different from causing it) they can share equal blame. As both Vettel and Webber could have avoided it. Vettel, of course, should have not steered into his team mate but, since he did, Webber could have moved out of his way. Racing drivers have to walk a narrow line between standing their ground and avoiding accidents and that is up to them and their employers which is why I said could rather than should there.



"Mark had requested the lap before to ask Sebastian to back off a bit. There was no way you could do that because of the McLarens being right there."

Horner acknowledged that Vettel had the faster pace at the time of the incident.

"It looked like Mark started to struggle with the rear tyres a bit more - that's what it looked like on the pit wall," said Horner. "And Sebastian, between laps 38 and 39, really closed up rapidly to the back of Mark, obviously got a run on him on lap 40 and they both found themselves in a situation they didn't want to be in."

]http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093 (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093)

Interestingly Autosport reports that Webber had on a previous lap radioed the team and asked them to tell Vettel to hold station (or slow down). With two McLarens not far behind them I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that maybe the team can share some of the blame, for not managing their drivers well enough as this situation brewed. I'm not suggesting team orders. If Webber was slowing and Vettel was stuck behind with a looming Hamilton the 1-2 would have been getting fragile...

The likelihood is that both drivers would approach it different if they could go back and try it again.

[Firstgear]

Before reviewing the data, Redbull was blaming Webber.

After reviewing the data, Redbull (after public apology to Webber) says that it's a racing incident.

I guess Redbull couldn't find Webber's 'flick to the left' either.

Conclusion: Just like St. Devote having better data than Bridgestone, Markabilly has better data than Redbull.

[F1boat]

At first I thought it was Vettel's fault, but looking at it again, Webber should have gien way and preserved a team 1-2 rather than put both of them at risk of going off. It was a bold move by Vettel, but Webber defended too hard.

Or maybe Vettel should have preserved a team 1-2, instead of acting like a spoiled brat and expecting his teammate of acting like his slave?

[Daniel]

From the point of view of avoiding the accident (which is different from causing it) they can share equal blame. As both Vettel and Webber could have avoided it. Vettel, of course, should have not steered into his team mate but, since he did, Webber could have moved out of his way. Racing drivers have to walk a narrow line between standing their ground and avoiding accidents and that is up to them and their employers which is why I said could rather than should there.http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093

That's exactly the point. It takes two to tango and although Seb stepped on Mark's toes, Mark could see what was going to happen and kept his toes out.....

But anyway I should stfu lest someone accuse me of trying to stifle their freedom of speach :rotflmao:

[Daniel]

On the line, just, but not off the track. He had the room.

Look at the angle of Seb's steering wheel. That's not straight, is it?

It's impossible to say, the camera isn't straight on, as you can see from the aerials on the nosecones of the Red Bull's.

[Daniel]

Conclusion: Just like St. Devote having better data than Bridgestone, Markabilly has better data than Redbull.

I notice our esteemed colleague is on "holiday"

<Default Anglo Forum Member Setting ON>

The German is to blame

<Default Anglo Forum Member Setting OFF>

[Bagwan]

On the line, just, but not off the track. He had the room.

Look at the angle of Seb's steering wheel. That's not straight, is it?

Check billy's sequenced shots and you'll see Webber's trajectory is toward the line .
Had Vettel kept it straight , he was off track .

In the sequence , we also see the first braking distance marker in view on the right , just as the contact occurs .

Webber had him to the line .
To keep him there to long , with Seb on the dirt inside , was just asking for trouble .
He was already past . There was no point in keeping him that tight that they would lock wheels .

This wasn't a lunge down the inside just before the corner .
Webber conceded that he lost the position and made a conscious choice to make it as hard as he could for Vettel .
That was the way he characterized it .
The pass was made before they got to that brake marker .

The way Hammy and Bunbun diced looked like when they made the moves , they had the intention to pass and repass , rather than make it hard for each other .
They showed respect for each others' abilities .
It was great to see .

It seems to me that the two Mac drivers are revved by the team-mate competition , and the Bull boys are rattled by it .

[ioan]

On the line, just, but not off the track. He had the room.

Look at the angle of Seb's steering wheel. That's not straight, is it?

You would **** (I used the *'s ) yourself if I pushed you so close to the white line on a motorway at 100mph but you think it was so easy to go into braking zone at almost 200 mph and you call that enough room for racing. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Oh and BTW Nationality has bugger all to do with it.

You're being naive now.

[CNR]

You're being naive now.
vettel starting to copy schumacher

[airshifter]

If you believe that Webber is 0% to blame then this can only mean that you think Vettel intentionally crashed into Webber on purpose which is just unthinkable.


I think that Webber is 0% to blame, and I've never thought Vettel made contact intentionally. It could have been brain fade, it could have been he thought he was clear, or it could have been that he thought Mark would move at the last split second.

People keep arguing that the pass was made, and I disagree with that. Had Vettel completed the pass he could have chopped right hard and got back on the racing line, and no contact would have taken place. In reality the pass was about 1/2 made, and he didn't finish it.




As for the Webber "flick to the left" I can't see it on any video. And I can watch the Webber in car shot on my DVR frame by frame.

[Valve Bounce]

Check billy's sequenced shots and you'll see Webber's trajectory is toward the line .
Had Vettel kept it straight , he was off track .

In the sequence , we also see the first braking distance marker in view on the right , just as the contact occurs .

Webber had him to the line .
To keep him there to long , with Seb on the dirt inside , was just asking for trouble .
He was already past . There was no point in keeping him that tight that they would lock wheels .

This wasn't a lunge down the inside just before the corner .
Webber conceded that he lost the position and made a conscious choice to make it as hard as he could for Vettel .
That was the way he characterized it .
The pass was made before they got to that brake marker .

The way Hammy and Bunbun diced looked like when they made the moves , they had the intention to pass and repass , rather than make it hard for each other .
They showed respect for each others' abilities .
It was great to see .

It seems to me that the two Mac drivers are revved by the team-mate competition , and the Bull boys are rattled by it .

Your analysis does not appear to be supported by the photos at post #92

[Ari]

I can't help but post despite trying not to get drawn into this.

Unfortunately the clips themselves have now been removed from YouTube so I can't watch them again and will just refer to on-board shots in general.

When watching from the on-board camera it is usual to see slight movement of the steering wheel left and right even when the car is travelling in an apparent straight line. So if you do take a snap-shot frame of EITHER car, the steering wheel may well be tilted one way or the other but, as it is a single frame, doesn't really indicate much since there is no clue of time or what happened a split second before and after.

From actually watching it, Vettel steered towards Webber in a bid to give himself a better line into the next corner. From that I think that it is fair to say that Vettel caused the accident - not because he was attempting to pass but because as he edged in front he started moving over.

From the point of view of avoiding the accident (which is different from causing it) they can share equal blame. As both Vettel and Webber could have avoided it. Vettel, of course, should have not steered into his team mate but, since he did, Webber could have moved out of his way. Racing drivers have to walk a narrow line between standing their ground and avoiding accidents and that is up to them and their employers which is why I said could rather than should there.


]http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093 (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093)

Interestingly Autosport reports that Webber had on a previous lap radioed the team and asked them to tell Vettel to hold station (or slow down). With two McLarens not far behind them I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that maybe the team can share some of the blame, for not managing their drivers well enough as this situation brewed. I'm not suggesting team orders. If Webber was slowing and Vettel was stuck behind with a looming Hamilton the 1-2 would have been getting fragile...

The likelihood is that both drivers would approach it different if they could go back and try it again.

This post is just about spot on!

[Ari]

Or maybe Vettel should have preserved a team 1-2, instead of acting like a spoiled brat and expecting his teammate of acting like his slave?

lol.

If anything this move has shown us one thing. Webber is leading the Championship with a team which does not want him to win!!! That's a bloody solid effort!

[markabilly]

Your analysis does not appear to be supported by the photos at post #92
that is because of the distortion caused by the telephotos lens...on the other hand, it is well supported by the in-car photo/videos :D

as to those who refuse to see it, :rotflmao:

The better question is why all the these english speakers hate the germans so much and want el chopper to win a wdc, they are willing to do [whatever]

[markabilly]

Before reviewing the data, Redbull was blaming Webber.

After reviewing the data, Redbull (after public apology to Webber) says that it's a racing incident.

.


And of course, all that "data" is the stuff sprewed forth from the mouths of Englanders and aussies and fans of the british way of life, not wanting to see another brit, once again, having his pants beat off by some miserable, scrawny little German


So they think how many germans are there and how many of the other....opps that is a lot of sales...opps, let us save some revenue and say "racing incident"

after all, if they really want to dull the chopper, there are more quiet ways

Face it, Damon Hill no like Germans, Aussies no like Germans, Arie no like Germans...........and for them, if the choice for the new WDC comes down to Webber, Button and Hamilton, well, we all know who will get the back of that bus :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

that is because of the distortion caused by the telephotos lens...on the other hand, it is well supported by the in-car photo/videos :D

as to those who refuse to see it, :rotflmao:

The better question is why all the these english speakers hate the germans so much and want el chopper to win a wdc, they are willing to do [whatever]

Just because I speak English does not mean I can't have a different view to yours.

[Easy Drifter]

Eki blames George Bush.

If you do not understand that you do not read Chit Chat.

[RJL25]

Markabilly you so have no idea of what your are talking about. Australia may officially have been part of the brittish empire, but Australians do NOT consider themselfs to be brittish and brits do NOT consider Australians to be brittish.

And Australians have absolutely no problem with Germans, their is absolutely no rivalry their unlike the rivalry between the english and the germans.

Markabilly your talking about stuff that doesn't exist!

The brits and the Aussies have as strong a rivalry as the brits and Germans do, so you clearly know sweet F A of what your talking about man!

[Shifter]

Webber wasn't told to move over and let Vettel through, so when Vettel made his move Webber instinctively put the squeeze on. When Vettel got ahead by a nose, he instictively tried to take the line back as any F1 driver with a slight lead will try to do based on the unwritten rules of cut-throat F1 driver creed. Webber slightly at fault for doing a full squeeze (meaning pushing him to the line on the side of the track, not further...though Webber has on occasion gone beyond a full sqeeze and into the force-off zone) on a teammate but that's not the direct cause of the accident, just a factor in the collision; Vettel mostly at fault for moving back over so violently that Webber couldn't react in time. I voted both but I'd put it at, oh, 15% Webber and 85% Vettel.

There's been 2 defining moments in the championship chase so far. They are the radiator fan mistake by Buttons' crew, and this collision. When the season is done we can look back on these two moments and consider how they altered the championship, which now at the moment clearly features all drivers on both McLaren and RedBull teams.

[truefan72]

I still think Vettel is mostly at fault but as I said Webber is not completely innocent either. I do agree on one point with Markabilly though, and it is something I saw and believed right from the outset. Webber did ever so slightly nudge his car to the left which did contribute to the incident.

At the end of the day it is a racing incident pure and simple with a long set of circumstances that came together to create the collision.
Was it avoidable? yes.
But we are talking about an erratic overtaker in Vettel and a borderline dirty defender of position in Webber so this outcome was destined to happen.

What to me was telling was the initial team's response. If i was Webber, I would be not to pleased about that. I expect more fireworks before the end of the season.

[CNR]

Q: how do i add markabilly to the ignore list

[Valve Bounce]

Go to "user CP" at top of this page, then select the appropriate option.

[SGWilko]

<Default Anglo Forum Member Setting ON>

The German is to blame

<Default Anglo Forum Member Setting OFF>

Well, the Aussie certainly is not to blame, so I guess you call it right big boy.

[markabilly]

What a load of old tripe.. :laugh:
Theres only two people on this entire thread who are bringing nationality into this and you are one of them. Beleive it or not some of us have watched the incident and have formed opinions based on what we saw rather than getting caught up in the stereotypical romance of good old fashioned nationalism. :p

For your information I was born a long, long time after the Second World War, and the days of drinking tea with jam sandwiches on the lawn is long gone my friend. ;)
when i said,
And of course, all that "data" is the stuff sprewed forth from the mouths of Englanders and aussies and fans of the british way of life, not wanting to see another brit, once again, having his pants beat off by some miserable, scrawny little German


Weren't talking about WWII, I was talking about Schuie, beating Damon like an old drum, over and over again....now the new german comes along....

:vader:


but oh my, look at all those british and aussie flags rallying around to defend their chopper.......

[Bagwan]

Webber wasn't told to move over and let Vettel through, so when Vettel made his move Webber instinctively put the squeeze on. When Vettel got ahead by a nose, he instictively tried to take the line back as any F1 driver with a slight lead will try to do based on the unwritten rules of cut-throat F1 driver creed. Webber slightly at fault for doing a full squeeze (meaning pushing him to the line on the side of the track, not further...though Webber has on occasion gone beyond a full sqeeze and into the force-off zone) on a teammate but that's not the direct cause of the accident, just a factor in the collision; Vettel mostly at fault for moving back over so violently that Webber couldn't react in time. I voted both but I'd put it at, oh, 15% Webber and 85% Vettel.

There's been 2 defining moments in the championship chase so far. They are the radiator fan mistake by Buttons' crew, and this collision. When the season is done we can look back on these two moments and consider how they altered the championship, which now at the moment clearly features all drivers on both McLaren and RedBull teams.

Webber wasn't told to let Vettel through .
But , the lap before , Webber had asked that Vettel be told to back off .

He was denied that request .

This would have been the moment that Sebastian took the message that he should pass .

This rings true with the initial reaction from the bull camp , that Webber caused the trouble by making it too hard .



This is what happens in a series that doesn't allow team orders when , rather ironically , they are required for success .

[markabilly]

I still think Vettel is mostly at fault but as I said Webber is not completely innocent either. I do agree on one point with Markabilly though, and it is something I saw and believed right from the outset. Webber did ever so slightly nudge his car to the left which did contribute to the incident.

At the end of the day it is a racing incident pure and simple with a long set of circumstances that came together to create the collision.
Was it avoidable? yes.
But we are talking about an erratic overtaker in Vettel and a borderline dirty defender of position in Webber so this outcome was destined to happen.

What to me was telling was the initial team's response. If i was Webber, I would be not to pleased about that. I expect more fireworks before the end of the season.
I know, the pit wall had their arms up in the air in celebration and then ANGER :eek:

If it weren't the concerns about corporate image and those brits and Ausies not drinking the stuff.....webber would be on his way to being scott speed's new team mate, driving a truck........ :rolleyes:

[Mia 01]

Now I´m sure, Marks days in RBR is numbered.

[Hondo]

Although I put the blame on Vettel, I think the real blame lies within the RBR team, especially the guy who decides how much fuel the car will require to complete the race. To me, having your nose a little further in front means you win at the checkered flag but does not constitute a "completed pass". When you can veer left and right without hitting anything you have completed your pass.

I'm sure if you go out on the highway and get your passenger side door even with another motorist's front bumper and then move over on him you'll get a citation from the cop that investigates the accident saying you hadn't completed your pass of the other vehicle before moving back into the main lane.

[Daniel]

Although I put the blame on Vettel, I think the real blame lies within the RBR team, especially the guy who decides how much fuel the car will require to complete the race. To me, having your nose a little further in front means you win at the checkered flag but does not constitute a "completed pass". When you can veer left and right without hitting anything you have completed your pass.

I'm sure if you go out on the highway and get your passenger side door even with another motorist's front bumper and then move over on him you'll get a citation from the cop that investigates the accident saying you hadn't completed your pass of the other vehicle before moving back into the main lane.
But if you told the cop that you saw him coming across but chose to hold your line because he had to make the pass stick..... ;)

[FastFoz]

Hey guys I'm new here but pretty gutted at what happened so had to join up and ask you guys a question.

Does anyone know the layout of a RB6 steering wheel??. If you look at the replay from vettels car at about turn 6 on the lap before the crash he makes 2 adjustments on the steering wheel, what do you think they where??. If webber turned his power down that lap and vettel turned his up, could that make up for the huge speed difference on lap 40??. Maybe he was changing brake bias or wing angle or turning power up, knowing he was going to get a opportunity to pass, just though id throw it out there to see what other people thought.

And i doubt we will ever know how much fuel webber had left. He must not have been to worried about it with the pace he was setting at the end of the race.

I was a great RBR fan, now just a MW fan!

[airshifter]

Hey guys I'm new here but pretty gutted at what happened so had to join up and ask you guys a question.

Does anyone know the layout of a RB6 steering wheel??. If you look at the replay from vettels car at about turn 6 on the lap before the crash he makes 2 adjustments on the steering wheel, what do you think they where??. If webber turned his power down that lap and vettel turned his up, could that make up for the huge speed difference on lap 40??. Maybe he was changing brake bias or wing angle or turning power up, knowing he was going to get a opportunity to pass, just though id throw it out there to see what other people thought.

And i doubt we will ever know how much fuel webber had left. He must not have been to worried about it with the pace he was setting at the end of the race.

I was a great RBR fan, now just a MW fan!

I'm not sure what knobs he moved, but I noticed that as well during one of the several replays I watched of the indident. If we could find a pic of the RBR wheel we might be able to figure out what he did.

My complete guess would be that when Mark was going to a fuel saving mixture/map Sebastian was doing the opposite to have a go at him. Likewise I think Jenson did the same.

[Hondo]

But if you told the cop that you saw him coming across but chose to hold your line because he had to make the pass stick..... ;)

It would still be his fault for moving over without having enough room to do so.

Obviously Vettel was at no time completely past Webber with enough room to move onto Webber's line. Therefore, he had not passed him. Vettel should have backed off when he realized his "pass" fell short of the mark. No pun intended.

[Tazio]

I blame Kettel! I don't think it was an intentional faint just a loss of total control.
Maybe fideling with engine maps or something else that took his concentration off the fact that he was slicing Ham on that move! JMHO

[markabilly]

You might even be related to me lol.. :)

Over and out.
Humm, well, I did "get around a lot". u never know.

What does your momma look like and when were you born??


As they say, whose your daddy now.... :eek:

u never know...

[markabilly]

I blame Kettel! I don't think it was intentional however! JMHO
? You mean the Kettle who lost the WWII?
Or was that Keitel?

Or was it the same Kettel that called the pot blacK?

[Tazio]

? You mean the Kettle who lost the WWII?
Or was that Keitel?

Or was it the same Kettel that called the pot blacK?Nothing that profound, Fettel just got crossed up and inexplicably turned into his teammate after he was almost all the way through. If they were both trying to brake late then his momentum would have forced both of them to take the turn wide Webber wider than Kettle so we could have had a crash in the corner if Webber didn't go wide. Which if handled correctly would have given him momentum to take back the position. None of the latter transpired because Of the Fettle flop!
That was my observation FWIW

[FastFoz]

I'm not sure what knobs he moved, but I noticed that as well during one of the several replays I watched of the indident. If we could find a pic of the RBR wheel we might be able to figure out what he did.

My complete guess would be that when Mark was going to a fuel saving mixture/map Sebastian was doing the opposite to have a go at him. Likewise I think Jenson did the same.

So if vettel was at a lower power setting then dialed it up, was the team fabricating a pass, without letting mark know and not having to give obvious team orders? so many unanswered questions.


I voted vettels fault, but i blame 50% of it on the team as well.

And as for racing room, how much does he need?? at the point of contact there was at least a car and a half to the edge of the track from mark, look how close they drive to the walls at monaco, this was miles of room compared to their. They're dam racing drivers, that's what they are paid to do, RACE. And mark holding his line was smart, it's called race craft, compromise his entry so he had a chance on the last corner or the start/finish straight was his objective i would guess?.

Nic

[RJL25]

Markabilly - still avoiding the fact that Aussies and Brittish aren't the same thing eh? it's been pointed out to you, but you still push that the brittish people are supporting an Aussie, which is the last bloody thing a brit would do! Ever been in England during an ashes series mate? They bloody HATE the Aussies! lol

[markabilly]

Markabilly - still avoiding the fact that Aussies and Brittish aren't the same thing eh? it's been pointed out to you, but you still push that the brittish people are supporting an Aussie, which is the last bloody thing a brit would do! Ever been in England during an ashes series mate? They bloody HATE the Aussies! lol
No doubt the Aussies have issues with "da English", and it explains why Mel Gibson made so many movies where all he does is kill redcoats and other limeys.

Probably due to an inferiority complex related to being a brit, but ashamed that they never kicked out "da English" at the point of a bayonent as we did in1776 :D

But when push comes to shove against the huns, we all knew who fought against the germans just a few years back..... :vader:

[555-04Q2]

Markabilly - still avoiding the fact that Aussies and Brittish aren't the same thing eh? it's been pointed out to you, but you still push that the brittish people are supporting an Aussie, which is the last bloody thing a brit would do! Ever been in England during an ashes series mate? They bloody HATE the Aussies! lol

The Auzzie's are close cousins to the Brits, dumped on a huge island by the Brits, many many moons ago. Its like hating your distant family!!!

[markabilly]

The Auzzie's are close cousins to the Brits, dumped on a huge island by the Brits, many many moons ago. Its like hating your distant family!!!
actually the ones they dumped were mostly criminals.....the genectics might explain some things :D

[Mark]

Nah, it tends to be that English like the people from our former / current 'colonies', but they don't like us back very much!

(By 'current' I'm including the likes of Scotland and Wales!)

[Mia 01]

The blame is on both of the drivers.

RBR wont vin nothing this way.

[truefan72]

So if vettel was at a lower power setting then dialed it up, was the team fabricating a pass, without letting mark know and not having to give obvious team orders? so many unanswered questions.


I voted vettels fault, but i blame 50% of it on the team as well.



Nic
hi
first and foremost welcome
yes I would say the team were sort of involved as well and if there ever was a formal investigation I think that might be the case. If it were true then I think the fIA need to take some action against Horner for trying to fix a race outcome to the absolute detriment of another.
This might turn out to be just as bad as crashgate imo and with a far greater impact on the WDC....but we will probably never know as RBR went into damage control very quickly after their initial telling comments by marko and horner

[Valve Bounce]

The blame is on both of the drivers.

RBR wont vin nothing this way.

Last episode of The Killing this wednesday - and I know who the killer is. :eek: ;)

[Mia 01]

This year is perhaps RBR :s last chance for a couple of years to score the WCC. Next years cars will have KERS again and RBR has no experience of it.

If they not take it now, heads will fall.

[Retro Formula 1]

No doubt the Aussies have issues with "da English", and it explains why Mel Gibson made so many movies where all he does is kill redcoats and other limeys.

Probably due to an inferiority complex related to being a brit, but ashamed that they never kicked out "da English" at the point of a bayonent as we did in1776 :D

But when push comes to shove against the huns, we all knew who fought against the germans just a few years back..... :vader:

NEWSFLASH - Faulty Towers was shot 35 years ago!!

Apart from the odd football chant about 2 world wars and 1 world cup, Jeremy Clarkson and some misguided Motorsport "fans", nobody gives a toss about the war any more.

As for Aussies, we love to hate each other in any sporting event but it's friendly rivalry. In fact the most hostility there is between the two countries is the constant impact of young people that both countries ruthlessly bombard each other with. Looking at the state of the chavs we export compared to the bronzed, blonde Bondi babes we receive in return, it's fair to say that they're doing about as well in this contest as they did in the last Ashes and probably hopefully the next one as well :p

[Blancvino]

I believe the car doing the overtaking is responsible for making a CLEAN pass. In my view, Vettle did nothing of the sort.

[Valve Bounce]

I believe the car doing the overtaking is responsible for making a CLEAN pass. In my view, Vettle did nothing of the sort.

^this^ :up:

[ArrowsFA1]

I believe the car doing the overtaking is responsible for making a CLEAN pass. In my view, Vettle did nothing of the sort.
Exactly :up: and yet Vettel would have you believe something different:

"I had already passed Mark and then obviously tried to come slowly back to the right. At that time I was the leading car so usually then the leader dictates when to go." - Link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84212)
Yes, his car was (in horse racing terms) 'leading' by a nose but he had not completed the pass.

[truefan72]

now it is coming out that Horner lied about Webber telling them to ask Vettel to slow down
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/06/new_evidence_for_hamiltons_dis.html

as it tunrs out he was asking them if Vettel was on the same engine map as he was since it seemed odd he was faster.

The more i look into this matter the more I feel that RBR is shafting Webber despite MW leading the WDC , the race and his teammate. I'll say it again. Horner is grossly underqualified for being a team principle.

[SGWilko]

now it is coming out that Horner lied about Webber telling them to ask Vettel to slow down
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/06/new_evidence_for_hamiltons_dis.html

as it tunrs out he was asking them if Vettel was on the same engine map as he was since it seemed odd he was faster.

The more i look into this matter the more I feel that RBR is shafting Webber despite MW leading the WDC , the race and his teammate. I'll say it again. Horner is grossly underqualified for being a team principle.

Curiouser and curiouser

[Valve Bounce]

now it is coming out that Horner lied about Webber telling them to ask Vettel to slow down
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/06/new_evidence_for_hamiltons_dis.html

as it tunrs out he was asking them if Vettel was on the same engine map as he was since it seemed odd he was faster.

The more i look into this matter the more I feel that RBR is shafting Webber despite MW leading the WDC , the race and his teammate. I'll say it again. Horner is grossly underqualified for being a team principle.

OMIGOD!! and to think that both drivers are equal. It seems Fettel is the more equal driver than Mark.

[Valve Bounce]

"Vettel confirmed for the first time that he had indeed turned right into Webber's path - but said he had done so because he believed he had the right to as the car in front."http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84212

So this will finally put an end to all the BS from Markabilly.

[i_max2k2]

"Vettel confirmed for the first time that he had indeed turned right into Webber's path - but said he had done so because he believed he had the right to as the car in front."http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84212

So this will finally put an end to all the BS from Markabilly.

Yep that should hopefully do it, lets see how RBR goes from this point onwards, now that they know, that their wonderkid has not really gained any positive popularity with their BS. And atleast for me Vettel lost a lot of respect.

[Daniel]

Perhaps Vettel also got annoyed at people constantly going on about this so confessed to shut people up? :laugh:

[Dave B]

So, from various horses' mouths:


Mark did not receive an instruction to let Vettel pass.


Vettel admits that he turned into Webber (although makes clear it wasn't deliberate) [Link] (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84212)


Horner admits it was a mistake to blame Webber [Link] (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84256)I hope those who blamed Webber will now either admit they were wrong to do so, or STFU, and look forward to a cracking race in Canada.

[Valve Bounce]

Perhaps Vettel also got annoyed at people constantly going on about this so confessed to shut people up? :laugh:

You are assuming, of course that Vettel even bothers to read what we say. So you think that he fessed up, not because it was true, but just to shut us up???

Be real Daniel. Face up to the facts.

[markabilly]

opps i confused which thread is which.

but i think we need another poll, to tell us what to think about chopper getting chopped on by his team, but vettel just called me on my mobile to ask me to tell valve, that no matter what lies and mean half truths Valve says about him, Jesus still loves you

[SGWilko]

opps i confused which thread is which.

but i think we need another poll, to tell us to think about chopper getting chopped on by his team

Surely, that is an instruction, not a consensus.

You are clearly significantly more advanced in your confusion than would, at first thought, appear.

However, consistency is the key, and on that front, you are at least, indeed, very.

[Daniel]

I thought we were meant to be respectful of other peoples views on here?

[markabilly]

Surely, that is an instruction, not a consensus.

You are clearly significantly more advanced in your confusion than would, at first thought, appear.

However, consistency is the key, and on that front, you are at least, indeed, very.
Sebo also sends his love to you, and to tell you likewise, Jesus loves you too......but since he did not get that job at Ferrari and Massa is still there, that Pino can go to hell....

:D

[SGWilko]

Sebo also sends his love to you, and to tell you likewise, Jesus loves you too......but since he did not get that job at Ferrari and Massa is still there, that Pino can go to hell....

:D

Hell hath no fury like a poster scorned.....

[SGWilko]

I thought we were meant to be respectful of other peoples views on here?

I'm stuck in a basement - no views here......

[markabilly]

Hell hath no fury like a poster scorned.....
yeah, I guess that is why all of you are ranting at me for not agreeing with the rest of you....

So okay, I agree. :up:

Jesus loves all of you, even Pino and chopper

[CNR]

I thought we were meant to be respectful of other peoples views on here?

:confused:

[Valve Bounce]

Now we blame Jesus for Vettel turning into Webber? Get real!!

[SGWilko]

yeah, I guess that is why all of you are ranting at me for not agreeing with the rest of you....

So okay, I agree. :up:

Jesus loves all of you, even Pino and chopper

I don't see the ranting, but I guess that's because he is still on enforced leave! ;)

[SGWilko]

Now we blame Jesus for Vettel turning into Webber? Get real!!

Jesus??? - does this entity exist? ;)

[pino]

Keep it on topic !!!

[Retro Formula 1]

Keep it on topic !!!

Which topic?

1. Webber and Vettel?
2. Jesus - Fact or fiction?
3. Markability and alternate realities?

Do we need another Poll?

(Just joking Mr Pino :) )

Like Mr Brockman, I think it's time to bow out unless new evidence comes to light.

[markabilly]

Keep it on topic !!!
well webber and vettel keep it 'on topic" and ran themselves together.

Actually I no longer care one way or the other and this thread can be closed as well, these two clowns are making MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

doing what I would pay good money out of my own pocket to do, if I only had it.......SERIOUSLY

Most real fans including guys who post here, are Walter Mitty (s) anyway, except one who might be a "bitty" as they put it..........

Now if I had won the 300 million dollar lottery recently, I might have been the oldest rookie to ever earn ...well buy himself a ride in F1, and show them youngsters, Schuie and Rubens, to say nothing of those other younger children, how to drive straight down a road without bumping and grinding....




turn out the lights, the party's over.... :dozey:

[Valve Bounce]

""What happened, happened so there's not much more to say," he said. "You can look at it from many different angles and you can't change it now, so looking back I wouldn't have done anything differently."

So, although both agree to disagree on the cause of the coming together, and to move on, what intrigues me is whether things will be any different in future races! At some point, one will be in a position to pass the other; then why wouldn't Vettel turn into Webber next time?

Personally, I think team management needs to sort this out unilaterally, once and for all. Gifting a one-two finish to McLaren next time would be purely asinine.

[RJL25]

Is this thread still going? Damn some of you guys need to get a life...

build a bloody bridge and get over it lads!

[Valve Bounce]

Is this thread still going? Damn some of you guys need to get a life...

build a bloody bridge and get over it lads!

Maybe it will become relevant during the Canadian GP; maybe not. Why don't we just wait and see?