Donkeys of the race

[Daniel]

Webber and Vettel :crazy:

[CNR]

after seeing the replays Vettel

[wedge]

Webber

Utter numpty. Why on earth pull a risky move like that on your team mate with the McLarens ready to pounce. Webber should've given relented given more space.

[CNR]

Webber

Utter numpty. Why on earth pull a risky move like that on your team mate with the McLarens ready to pounce. Webber should've given relented given more space.

watch the replay

[Daniel]

Both of them are donkeys but Webber had been passed and didn't relent. What a clot......

[Daniel]

watch the replay
Take some of your own advice and you'll see that Webber had been passed and he should have relented.

[Garry Walker]

Take some of your own advice and you'll see that Webber had been passed and he should have relented.

he had relented, the problem was that some idiot just decided to turn into his car

Donkey - Vettel.

[wedge]

Which came first? Chicken or the egg?

Had Webber given Vettel more room would Vettel try to squeeze Webber?

[markabilly]

Chopper Webber, no question here, forced Vettel over after Webber was passed, giving Vettel no choice excpet to move over or wrecked out at apex

Webber should have relented and did not.

I might other wise give webber a break and say racing incident but he has done this repeatedly over and over again and again, in many races.

Earlier he was clearly brake checking hamilton, and delaying hitting the throttle after the apex to mess up hamilton's drive....Webber has aways been a cheap shot driver

[AJP]

Vettel is a spoilt little brat....

anyone who thinks that webber should have given him more room, has no clue on racing!.

why hand your position over on a plate..with out a proper fight.

Vettel pulled right into webber's car and ruined both of their races..

simple.

[markabilly]

Vettel is a spoilt little brat....

anyone who thinks that webber should have given him more room, has no clue on racing!.

why hand your position over on a plate..with out a proper fight.

Vettel pulled right into webber's car and ruined both of their races..

simple.
being from Australia, you would say that....guess it is hard to see when your head is down under or up yonder

Webber is clearly the dirtiest driver for the last five years nor more....while Schuie might cheat a bit, in the last 10 years, clearly the chopper has been the worse and what is worse, is how he whines so much

[christophulus]

Neither driver was blameless but it's definitely more the fault of Vettel. Looks like he's getting a bit rattled now Webber's on the pace.

Certainly livened the race up though.

[AJP]

being from Australia, you would say that....guess it is hard to see when your head is down under or up yonder

Webber is clearly the dirties driver....while Schuie might cheat a bit, in the last 10 years, clearly the chopper has been the worse ansd he funnier, is how he whines so much

markabilly...


being form Australia has nothing to do with this.

this has to do with racing...

you want to start having a go...you need to be a little more intelligent than that..

[Daniel]

Vettel is a spoilt little brat....

anyone who thinks that webber should have given him more room, has no clue on racing!.

why hand your position over on a plate..with out a proper fight.

Vettel pulled right into webber's car and ruined both of their races..

simple.

Webber is a flaming drongo....

anyone who thinks that Vettel is at fault, has no clue on racing!.

Why let the driver who is behind and who is slower past?.

Vettel moved over gently and any other driver would have relented, not Webber. Webber ruined both of their races..

simple

[Daniel]

markabilly...


being form Australia has nothing to do with this.

this has to do with racing...

you want to start having a go...you need to be a little more intelligent than that..
You can't honestly say that you're objective in this........

[wedge]

anyone who thinks that webber should have given him more room, has no clue on racing!.

why hand your position over on a plate..with out a proper fight.


Errr,

Who was in third, 1.5s behind Webber?

And isn't this supposed to be a team sport? ie. RBR 1-2 should've easily finished 1-2 regardless whoever finished first.

[turismo6]

Webber

[F1boat]

Vettel is a b1tch. In Malaysia Mark never attacked him, always was dutiful 2nd driver and always supported the team. Vettel is awful, he thinks only for himself and I wish him all the worst. B1tch.

[Garry Walker]

Webber is a flaming drongo....

anyone who thinks that Vettel is at fault, has no clue on racing!.

Why let the driver who is behind and who is slower past?.

Vettel moved over gently and any other driver would have relented, not Webber. Webber ruined both of their races..

simple
This is such idiocy.

Okay, lets try this.

If vettel had not turned right, exactly to where Webber was, would the accident have happened?

You will find the answer to that is no.
In addition to that, Webber gave just enough room to Vettel to make it through the corner. But no, Vettel had to try to intimidate Mark.

Serves him right that he crashed out for such a moronic move

[Daniel]

This is such idiocy.

Okay, lets try this.

If vettel had not turned right, exactly to where Webber was, would the accident have happened?

You will find the answer to that is no.
In addition to that, Webber gave just enough room to Vettel to make it through the corner. But no, Vettel had to try to intimidate Mark.

Serves him right that he crashed out for such a moronic move
Huh?

By your logic if Mark's dad had self serviced all those years ago this accident wouldn't have happened. Ergo it's Mark's dad's fault.

[gofasterstripes]

Simply pulling alongside and getting your nose ahead does not complete an overtaking move and it shouldn’t mean the other guy immediately has to yield or give you more room than the car width already provided.
Seb certainly should have anticipated Mark never would, team mate or not.

[AJP]

Id love to find one driver out there that thinks it's a team sport...

as for you Daniel...

So sorry for not agreeing with you....

oh that's right, it's because I don't. I forgot your the be all and end all of how you should race. Just like iaon..

you can all say as much as you like, that I am saying this because I am Australian.

You couldn't be more wrong.

[DexDexter]

Donkeys of the race: From what I've seen so far, Vettel. A special mention to Alonso as well who started 12 and only finished 8. Hardly worth his salary....

[F1boat]

Id love to find one driver out there that thinks it's a team sport...

as for you Daniel...

So sorry for not agreeing with you....

oh that's right, it's because I don't. I forgot your the be all and end all of how you should race. Just like iaon..

you can all say as much as you like, that I am saying this because I am Australian.

You couldn't be more wrong.

I am not Australian and I think like you :)

[UltimateDanGTR]

well, this is certainly controversial....

I personally blame vettel, he was infront at the time, but he seemed to veer into webber after webber rightfully defended his position without being dangerous.

[christophulus]

Just watched it again, once they were along side Vettel turned right slightly, Webber held his line. Looks like Vettel's fault.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8713653.stm

It's clearer from Webber's onboard

[F1boat]

Just watched it again, once they were along side Vettel turned right slightly, Webber held his line. Looks like Vettel's fault.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8713653.stm

It's clearer from Webber's onboard

Yes. I think that Vettel should be hit with 10 place grid penalty.

[ojciec dyrektor]

Vettel. He run into the other driver not for the first time. He did it to Kubica in Australia 2009.

He clearly turned right.

[F1boat]

Vettel. He run into the other driver not for the first time. He did it to Kubica in Australia 2009.

He clearly turned right.

That's why I hope for the same penalty.

[Koz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gX-z8isWcE


Pretty clear, he turned in right onto Webber.
I hope he gets a talking to.

[gm99]

Red Bull's Dr. Helmut Marko is just saying on German tv that Webber should have left more space to Vettel, especially as Vettel was clearly quicker at that point and Hamilton was pushing from behind. Christian Horner seems to be agreeing on that.

[Flying lap]

I am not Australian and I think like you :)


Vettel is a spoilt little brat....

anyone who thinks that webber should have given him more room, has no clue on racing!.

why hand your position over on a plate..with out a proper fight.

Vettel pulled right into webber's car and ruined both of their races..

simple.

This!

[Cozzie]

Definitely Webber!

[Garry Walker]

Red Bull's Dr. Helmut Marko is just saying on German tv that Webber should have left more space to Vettel, especially as Vettel was clearly quicker at that point and Hamilton was pushing from behind. Christian Horner seems to be agreeing on that.

Helmut Marko has always been a moron.

[Valve Bounce]

Just watched the replay twice. I can only say that I do not agree with either ioan, nor Daniel. Also watched the post race conference and the discussion between Lewis Hamilton and Mark Webber while Bunsen was being interviewed. When the published interviews come out on Autosport, I think both Daniel and ioan will be embarrassed.

[Garry Walker]

Red Bull's Dr. Helmut Marko is just saying on German tv that Webber should have left more space to Vettel, especially as Vettel was clearly quicker at that point and Hamilton was pushing from behind. Christian Horner seems to be agreeing on that.
Actually, if that is the case, it once again proves how sacred Vettel is at Red Bull and what a helluva job Webber is doing in a team where he is clearly nowhere near as important as his teammate is.

[ShiftingGears]

Webber is a flaming drongo....

anyone who thinks that Vettel is at fault, has no clue on racing!.

Why let the driver who is behind and who is slower past?.

Vettel moved over gently and any other driver would have relented, not Webber. Webber ruined both of their races..

simple

I really don't understand why you are critisising SGWilko for being insulting when you then turn around and accuse people who disagree with you of having no clue about racing.

Actually I do understand why. It's because you are being a complete hypocrite.

[AussieV8]

Take some of your own advice and you'll see that Webber had been passed and he should have relented.

It's up to the driver behind to get past cleanly. Webber didn't move his line, so it's Vettel's fault. Webber isn't Vettel's b1tch, so why should he move over? Both are fighting for the championship so it's Vettel who should do a better job at passing.

[Daniel]

Just watched the replay twice. I can only say that I do not agree with either ioan, nor Daniel. Also watched the post race conference and the discussion between Lewis Hamilton and Mark Webber while Bunsen was being interviewed. When the published interviews come out on Autosport, I think both Daniel and ioan will be embarrassed.
Fat chance :)

[Daniel]

I really don't understand why you are critisising SGWilko for being insulting when you then turn around and accuse people who disagree with you of having no clue about racing.

Actually I do understand why. It's because you are being a complete hypocrite.

All I've done is change the names in AJP's post. HE was the one who said that people had no clue about racing if they disagreed with him.

[race_director]

MCL for holding button bck. and i doubt that Lewis would have cried on the radio after button passed. and he got his place bck. IMO button jst gave the place

[Dave B]

Clearly Vettel for Donkey of the race, there was no need whatsoever for that. He'd have passed Webber cleanly. I'd like to think it was the car getting squirmy under braking, but it looked for all the world like a dirty move. From the onboards, Webber's steering wheel didn't move one degree towards Seb, so there's no way in hell that was the Australian's fault.

Honourable Donkey mention to the weather forecasters and to Lotus' hydraulics supplier.

[ArrowsFA1]

Donkey = Vettel.

He was being beaten by his team-mate again and maybe didn't like the fact that Webber didn't gift him the place so rather petulantly moved over when he didn't need to. He didn't move across much, but it was enough to cause what was avoidable contact.

[Daniel]

Clearly Vettel for Donkey of the race, there was no need whatsoever for that. He'd have passed Webber cleanly. I'd like to think it was the car getting squirmy under braking, but it looked for all the world like a dirty move. From the onboards, Webber's steering wheel didn't move one degree towards Seb, so there's no way in hell that was the Australian's fault.

Of course it would be silly to suggest that Webber chopped Vettel, he clearly didn't. But how many times at the start of a race in all the chaos have you seen someone move over 10x faster than Vettel did and have the other person avoid them. Webber saw the accident happening and could have chosen not to have it.... that to me is unforgivable.

[Dave B]

@sarahholtf1 Vettel tells BBC - "All of a sudden I lost the car. We touched. I'm not the kind of guy who pushes the fault to one guy. We are a team"

"I lost the car" - that's the key part. I wish I could see the telemetry.

[Daniel]

@sarahholtf1 Vettel tells BBC - "All of a sudden I lost the car. We touched. I'm not the kind of guy who pushes the fault to one guy. We are a team"

"I lost the car" - that's the key part. I wish I could see the telemetry.
There definitely does seem to be an element of that too, as Horner said there should have been more room given and lets be honest Vettel didn't have any to give.

[Dave B]

Of course it would be silly to suggest that Webber chopped Vettel, he clearly didn't. But how many times at the start of a race in all the chaos have you seen someone move over 10x faster than Vettel did and have the other person avoid them. Webber saw the accident happening and could have chosen not to have it.... that to me is unforgivable.
I'm not going to be drawn into an argument, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one :)

[Daniel]

I'm not going to be drawn into an argument, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one :)
Let's :D





I still think it's 60% Webber's fault :p

[markabilly]

Of course it would be silly to suggest that Webber chopped Vettel, he clearly didn't. But how many times at the start of a race in all the chaos have you seen someone move over 10x faster than Vettel did and have the other person avoid them. Webber saw the accident happening and could have chosen not to have it.... that to me is unforgivable.
he knew that either vettel would hit him or crash out trying to make the curve, which is what Webber intended.
When one watches the video, there are two moves from Vettel signalling his intent, and webber never moves at all. Indeed, in that position, probably neither would have made the corner without hamilton passing both of them

Webber had been passed and shoild have given room.

[wedge]

Which came first? Chicken or the egg?

Had Webber given Vettel more room would Vettel try to squeeze Webber?



Vettel. He run into the other driver not for the first time. He did it to Kubica in Australia 2009.

He clearly turned right.

:up:

Vettel has past form. He chopped Kubica at Monza last year.

Both Seb & Webbo are aggressive racers so something was bound to give/explode. I'm now erring towards Vettel - play with fire, you get burnt.

[Daniel]

:up:

Vettel has past form. He chopped Kubica at Monza last year.

Both Seb & Webbo are aggressive racers so something was bound to give/explode. I'm now erring towards Vettel - play with fire, you get burnt.

I can respect that. It's 60:40 IMHO and who gets the 60% of the blame depends on how you saw it. But to simply say one driver was 100% at fault is just silly.

[SGWilko]

you want to start having a go...you need to be a little more intelligent than that..

You expecting miracles? ;)

The Ass today was Vettel.

[truefan72]

ok I watched the replay about 10 times

Vettel was passing Webber and webber new that but he gave him little room
But vettel then inexplicably started veering inside and webber did not yield when in all honesty he was being passed.Also if you look at time1:03-1:04 you see that as vettel was veering inside expecting webber to move to the right, as he should be, Webber made an ever so slight but noticable nudge to the left( probably in attempt to slightly intimidate Vettel) and they touched.

It is 50/50 to me but based on reputation I would say that Webber carries a bit more blame since he has done this kind of thing before (refusing to yield and forcing opponents off the track) and thought for some strange reason that Vettel would back down. Vettel for his part should not have veered inside (although that leftish nudge by Webber was going to put him dangerously close to the edge and on an extremely bumpy part of the circuit) and with the slight speed advantage would have probably taken Webber at the corner.

To me this is still a lot of microanaylsis which really should be categorized as a racing incident with both parties at fault.

so both get donkeys of the race, along with Alonso for ruining petrov's race.

[CNR]

Take some of your own advice and you'll see that Webber had been passed and he should have relented.

you may need to get your eyes checked
http://i47.tinypic.com/ic0p4h.jpg

[wedge]

I can respect that. It's 60:40 IMHO and who gets the 60% of the blame depends on how you saw it. But to simply say one driver was 100% at fault is just silly.

I never said Vettel was fully at fault. I said erring so I'm happy to give 60% blame on Seb.

[Daniel]

you may need to get your eyes checked
http://i47.tinypic.com/ic0p4h.jpg
You've chosen some pictures which back up your opinion. I can't be bothered doing some screencaps which backup my opinion but needless to say you'll see that the back of Webber's front wheel impacted the front of Vettel's rear wheel.

[Daniel]

I never said Vettel was fully at fault. I said erring so I'm happy to give 60% blame on Seb.

Wasn't suggesting that you had, just that some people have

[Dave B]

You've chosen some pictures which back up your opinion. I can't be bothered doing some screencaps which backup my opinion but needless to say you'll see that the back of Webber's front wheel impacted the front of Vettel's rear wheel.
Which means that Vettel was passing Webber, rather than had passed him, which is the defence that Seb's fans seem to be using.

[Ent]

Vettel gets my donkey award, though tempered by the fact he made a mistake rather than it being deliberate. 100% his fault, though, as Webber held his line.

If, as some are suggesting here, Webber should have backed off to let Webber pass, then they would also think Button should not have kept his line when he passed Hamilton at the same corner a few laps later. Sure, Vettel had the inside line, but Webber was still beside him and in a good position to hold the outside line around turn 12 and have the inside run into 13, exactly the same as Button did on Hamilton. If side-by-side and you can break late enough into 12, it is the better line.

I wonder sometimes. Some people complain about there not being enough overtaking, and then they want drivers to back off as soon as someone is beside them. If not for the veer right by Vettel (which now sounds like he may have simply lost control of his car), it would have been great racing and they would have been side-by-side into turn 12, similar to Button and Hamilton a few laps later. Seems to me to many people are arguing based on personal favourites or against drivers they don't like rather than actually looking at what happened.

[AndyL]

I'm surprised Webber didn't say something about what happens when you let kids loose in F1 cars ;)

[ShiftingGears]

I'm surprised Webber didn't say something about what happens when you let kids loose in F1 cars ;)

LOL. He was being very careful about what he said in the press conference.

[Daniel]

Which means that Vettel was passing Webber, rather than had passed him, which is the defence that Seb's fans seem to be using.
You're either ahead or behind and Vettel was certainly ahead. Not just by a nose but by a good half a length.

[wedge]

I'm surprised Webber didn't say something about what happens when you let kids loose in F1 cars ;)

He'd be an idiot if he did.

He chopped Alonso at the inaugral Bahrain GP and nearly caused an accident, ran into Rubens at last year's German GP and punted off Lewis at Melbourne this year.

[i_max2k2]

Vettel & Alonso

Mark had his rights to keep his line, and vettel turned into him quicker than Mark could react, or thats how it looks in the replays, that vettel suddenly rams into webber they were not very near the next corner that such a behavior was expected for Mark to make room. Since the move was not completed, we cannot expect Mark to be giving the position away. And Alonso for making contact with Petrov, and ruining his points finish.

[markabilly]

what the caps showed is both drivers were clearly off line and unless they moved over, neither would make the corner.

All one has to do is look at button's passes to see that.

Indeed, had chopper moved over to the right, faster, no accident and chopper would have been back by.....

just look at Button's moves...well duh....

[Dave B]

Excellent replays on the BBC's forum, and it's absolutely definately Vettel's fault. If you didn't see it, wait until it's uploaded on their website.

Webber gave Vettel a car's width plus a few inches, and did not move any further to the left. He straighened up and held his ground.

Once Webber realised what was happening he did begin to move right, out of the way, but it was already too late.

[Daniel]

I think Webber could have reacted a lot more and he chose to not to. But if we keep going nothing is going to change except for people getting worked up :)

[Ent]

I liked how in the post-race press conference, while Button was speaking, Hamilton tapped Webber on the shoulder, motioned with his hands two car traveling beside each other, than one suddenly veering into the other with a WTF look on his face. Webber just shrugged and nodded. Hamilton, who was right behind, obviously was surprised by what he saw.

[CNR]

You're either ahead or behind and Vettel was certainly ahead. Not just by a nose but by a good half a length.
you are full of BS
you know that no video will show anything other then what i posted

[Dave B]

You're either ahead or behind ....
Or still alongside.

[Ari]

Webber is a flaming drongo....

anyone who thinks that Vettel is at fault, has no clue on racing!.

Why let the driver who is behind and who is slower past?.

Vettel moved over gently and any other driver would have relented, not Webber. Webber ruined both of their races..

simple

Donkey is Vettel.

Webber gave him track,... did not move across into him. Vettel moved into Webber.

If Vettel wanted the inside line, he had it. Was then up to him to use it and make the corner. NOT upto Webber to go wide and offer Vettel more track.

A rookie mistake. You can't just move over and expect your team mate to do the same as your tyres smash together.

[Ari]

Vettel is a b1tch. In Malaysia Mark never attacked him, always was dutiful 2nd driver and always supported the team. Vettel is awful, he thinks only for himself and I wish him all the worst. B1tch.
Yep!

[Ent]

I think Webber could have reacted a lot more and he chose to not to.

Considering both Vettel and Webber are among the pinnacle of drivers and all the top drivers have to have a supreme trust in each other not to do anything stupid in the breaking zone, and that this all happened in .1 or .2 of a second, I really don't think Webber had time to sit there and think "Oh, Seb's suddenly veering toward me, I think I'll just let him hit me and potentially put us both out of the race and let the McLarens' have a 1-2 victory." As I said before, Webber was holding his line because that would have forced Vettel to break earlier (more shallow approach to the corner), allowing Webber to break later, hold the line around the outside and gain the inside line to turn 13, much as Button did to Hamilton. It all would have been great, close racing in not for the sudden veer to the right by Vettel.


But if we keep going nothing is going to change except for people getting worked up :)

Agreed!

[Ari]

Autosport poll...

Vettels fault - 75% - 210 votes.
Webbers fault - 10% - 29 votes.
Both - 14% - 41 votes.

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=130160&st=0

[Dave B]

Hamilton is telling the BBC that Vettel made a dangerous move on him too.

[Daniel]

Hamilton is telling the BBC that Vettel made a dangerous move on him too.
On or off the track? :p

[Dave B]

Indeed ;)

As this is the "donkey" thread, can I also nominate Alonso for bashing into Petrov and causing his puncture?

[Daniel]

Indeed ;)

As this is the "donkey" thread, can I also nominate Alonso for bashing into Petrov and causing his puncture?
Yes. I would hope that doesn't go unnoticed either. Just because you choose to have a coming together on a slow speed corner rather than on a fast bit of straight road doesn't mean it's any less donkeyish.

[CNR]

cars still moving while the red light are on on the start start grid

[markabilly]

Considering both Vettel and Webber are among the pinnacle of drivers and all the top drivers have to have a supreme trust in each other not to do anything stupid in the breaking zone, and that this all happened in .1 or .2 of a second, I really don't think Webber had time to sit there and think "Oh, Seb's suddenly veering toward me, I think I'll just let him hit me and potentially put us both out of the race and let the McLarens' have a 1-2 victory." As I said before, Webber was holding his line because that would have forced Vettel to break earlier (more shallow approach to the corner), allowing Webber to break later, hold the line around the outside and gain the inside line to turn 13, much as Button did to Hamilton. It all would have been great, close racing in not for the sudden veer to the right by Vettel.
d!
If Button had done the same to either hamilton or Schuie, there would have been an accident or a big mess.

That is the difference between clean, hard, good racing....and the chopper

[SGWilko]

If Button had done the same to either hamilton or Schuie, there would have been an accident or a big mess.

That is the difference between clean, hard, good racing....and the chopper

The chopper was chopped, by his successor.

Hail the new chopper Vettel.

[SGWilko]

The chopper was chopped, by his successor.

Hail the new chopper Vettel.

Vettel's next car will be named Christine, and will repair itself.

[harsha]

vettel for even attempting such a bonehead move

[ioan]

Webber hands down. His history of squeezing and bumping drivers who just overtook him is way too long. There's a need he learns to lose.

[Garry Walker]

Webber hands down. His history of squeezing and bumping drivers who just overtook him is way too long. There's a need he learns to lose.

So you still cant show any objectivity when it comes to vettel.
Sad. Really sad.

[Dave B]

Orginally Tweeted by @willbuxton :
Kudos to @aussiegrit today. Held his line, his nerve and his dignity.

:up:

[Ent]

If Button had done the same to either hamilton or Schuie, there would have been an accident or a big mess.

Umm... Button did do the same to Hamilton a few laps later when he pulled up beside Hamilton on the outside coming up to turn 12 just a few laps later and it was good, close racing. They were in equivalent positions to Vettel and Webber, only Hamilton didn't veer right as Vettel did. Your own argument defeats what you're trying to say. Why not just say "it was Webber's fault because I don't like him", then you'd be at least making an honest argument.

[havk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WcW4A6grTE

After seeing reply I think it's rather Vettel's fault, although he was half a car ahead of Webber when turn right into him but still rather Vettel fault. Webber is agressive driver (nothing wrong with it, he's like Montoya - rather crash than to give a space) and I think if Button were on his place the crash wouldn't happen, but still I rather blame Vettel for accident.

[Azumanga Davo]

Oh no, everyone's defending their "Australian mate" through sheer blind nationalistic pride once again. Nothing ever sticks to "Teflon" Webber, does it? Replay shows Seb ahead. Both get today's award though.

[Caroline]

Side by side, Vettel's and Webber's cars were fine - but then Vettel turned in slightly - enough to cause the accident. Vettel lost his head and his race.

[Garry Walker]

Oh no, everyone's defending their "Australian mate" through sheer blind nationalistic pride once again. Nothing ever sticks to "Teflon" Webber, does it? Replay shows Seb ahead. Both get today's award though.

Yeah, I am about as ozzie as they come :rotflmao:

[Daniel]

Oh no, everyone's defending their "Australian mate" through sheer blind nationalistic pride once again. Nothing ever sticks to "Teflon" Webber, does it? Replay shows Seb ahead. Both get today's award though.

Fair go mate!

[ioan]

Vettel. He run into the other driver not for the first time. He did it to Kubica in Australia 2009.

So did Webber a lot more times: Obviously not into Kubica otherwise you would not take his side either, but his list is quite long.

[Azumanga Davo]

Yeah, I am about as ozzie as they come :rotflmao:

You can "come out of the dunny" now ;)

[rohanweb]

quiete frankly professor sebastian vettel

[Caroline]

It's easy to look into the past and remember some questionable moves from any driver. The Webber/Vettel incident should be judged on today's race.

[jeffmr2]

Webber at fault for not having sufficient awareness of Vettels position,Vettel at fault for slightly losing control of the car when in such a tight position.I guess it was just a racing incident.(ive done well to not let my dislike of Webber's driving style cloud my opinion!)

[titivie]

vettel for even attempting such a bonehead move

If you dont like to watch RACING, I suggest you start watching foodball.

[Azumanga Davo]

If you dont like to watch RACING, I suggest you start watching foodball.

Foodball eh? I'm off to the patent office!

[ioan]

There definitely does seem to be an element of that too, as Horner said there should have been more room given and lets be honest Vettel didn't have any to give.

Let's see what else transpires now from RedBull even though it can be accepted or dismissed as supporting their golden boy.

IMO it was rather difficult to brake from over 300 kmh for that corner on the dirty side without the car becoming a little unstable and with 10 inch space it's rather hard to catch it before making contact. Webber should have left more place, but that's not in his nature, and they would have both finished better. hopefully he'll learn from this.

[ioan]

Webber at fault for not having sufficient awareness of Vettels position,Vettel at fault for slightly losing control of the car when in such a tight position.I guess it was just a racing incident.(ive done well to not let my dislike of Webber's driving style cloud my opinion!)

You certainly exposed a balanced view.

[Dave B]

Webber should have left more place, but that's not in his nature, and they would have both finished better. hopefully he'll learn from this.
I'd say that the ones who will learn from this are the other drivers who might find themselves behind Webber in the future. He's laid down a marker that he's not a pushover, and that if you want to overtake then you'd better be able to make it stick. Had he yielded, he'd have sent the message out that he was a walkover. Nice work, I'd say. :up:

[Dave B]

Meanwhile, here's the story promised by Jonathon Noble:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84050

[ioan]

what the caps showed is both drivers were clearly off line and unless they moved over, neither would make the corner.


Bingo. One needs to think about what happened from the POV of a racing move that happened shortly before the braking zone for a corner.
If it was in the middle of a straight Vettel would have had shoulder more blame, however it was not the case.

[ioan]

I'd say that the ones who will learn from this are the other drivers who might find themselves behind Webber in the future. He's laid down a marker that he's not a pushover, and that if you want to overtake then you'd better be able to make it stick. Had he yielded, he'd have sent the message out that he was a walkover. Nice work, I'd say. :up:

It takes two to tango, and Webber is a lousy dancer.
If all drivers did like him there would be no overtaking moves only crashes.

And his marker has been laid down years ago already when he was running into people every second races. I still remember the frustration of Fisichella back in 2005 or 2006 when Mark t-boned his car by trying one of his very few and desperate overtaking moves in F1.

[Daniel]

I'd say that the ones who will learn from this are the other drivers who might find themselves behind Webber in the future. He's laid down a marker that he's not a pushover, and that if you want to overtake then you'd better be able to make it stick. Had he yielded, he'd have sent the message out that he was a walkover. Nice work, I'd say. :up:

I don't agree with this. Schumacher sent this message out a few races ago with his ability to keep people behind with some tough but extremely fair and extremely well thought out moves. Webber simply showed that he can't be trusted to do the right thing.

[steveaki13]

Vettel and Webber, what ever the ins and outs of it, the team will surely be saying neither of them should be jepardizing a one-two, by taking them risks.
Good pressure from Mclaren kept pushing hard and force the Bulls to get crazy.

[Daniel]

I think the other thing that has to be considered is that they're team mates.

Horner says this


"It is right to let the drivers race. We saw McLaren today letting their drivers race, but when drivers are in the same team it is important that they give each other a bit more respect and concede if one has got a run on the other."

Which to me says that he doesn't expect that when one driver has a run on the other that the other will try and effectively hang the other out to dry. Had the cars not collided where they would have I'm sure we'd have seen some contact later down the road or a car going off the track because of the line Webber was trying to force Vettel onto. Vettel moved over thinking Mark would do the decent thing and was very much mistaken.

If Webber had done that to another driver from another team my view would be different. But this was his team mate ffs!

[RJL25]

I don't get this, Mark was driving in a straight line, Vettel was driving in a straight line, with the speed differential Vettel would have continued to steam past and therefore comfortably take the corner, instead it was Vettel who decided to turn right which is what resulted in the contact.

Vettel's car made contact with Webber's car, not the other way around.

It was not Webber driving next to Vettel that caused the accident, it was Vettel turning right that caused the accident, surely?

In any case surely it is at best 50 50, at worst it was Vettel's fault, all Webber is guilt of doing is holding his line, he didn't move over on him. Lets not forget that Webber moved over to the inside of the track BEFORE Vettel was along side, but he DID leave a gap big enough for Vettel to drive his car into, once Vettel got his car into their webber did not move, he stayed dead straight.

Is horner and the rest of you guys suggesting that Mark is not allowed to drive in a straight line anymore? If this was Mark pushing Vettel onto the grass then absolutely it would be Mark's fault, but in this case he left enough room between himself and the grass for Vettel to get his car into, once he was there it was VETTEL who turned right, end of story.

Lets not forget also that they where equal on points at this stage, the pass was not for the lead of the race, it as for the lead of the world championship, you surely could not expect that Webber would just go "oh look Vettel has a run on me, I better just let him past"

people have sited the Hamilton/Button example, but at what point did Hamilton just say "oh Jenson you have a run on me, come right through then!" ofcourse he didn't! He said stuff you a-hole this is MY race and stayed along side and raced him, this is exactly what Webber did, just instead of doing a Button and staying along side and racing, Vettel said "hey mark get out of the way!" and then moved over sharply and aggressively ON A BLOODY STRAIGHT!

[RJL25]

What I don't get is Horner saying that Vettel had to pass Mark right then and there because otherwise Hamilton would have passed him, Hamilton hadn't been able to pass him for the previous 40 laps, why would he all of a sudden be able to pass him right then and there just because he had a good run on Webber?

Surely by that logic if Vettel did get past, it would have been Webber who got past, so that would be ok by Horner as long as Vettel didn't get past?

Some internal politics at play here I think... Horner has shown his hand, and it has Vettel written on it.

[Dzeidzei]

Donkeys of the race: From what I've seen so far, Vettel. A special mention to Alonso as well who started 12 and only finished 8. Hardly worth his salary....

Youre being too hard on Freddie. He wasnt a donkey, just slow as a sock. And about his salary... who cares, its Spanish money.

[gloomyDAY]

I think this is a really difficult moment to be a Vettel fan.

Seb was faster than Mark, but there wasn't any need to cut right into Webber's path. That attempted pass was just asking for trouble and was a really immature move that can turn the tide over on McLaren's side.

[airshifter]

Donkey is Vettel. He had space, he was clearly still increasing the margin, and slotted right into the side of Webber. Both drivers were off line, but Seb would have easily pushed Mark into a worse position.

Stupid bonehead move, similar to his tangle with Kubica in Austalia last year.


Number 2 donkey IMHO is Alonso. Didn't even make it to final qually, didn't do much on track, and to top it off forced a move that screwed up Petrovs otherwise good day.

[airshifter]

I think this is a really difficult moment to be a Vettel fan.

Seb was faster than Mark, but there wasn't any need to cut right into Webber's path. That attempted pass was just asking for trouble and was a really immature move that can turn the tide over on McLaren's side.

Aren't you reading the posts? The Vettel fans are simply ignoring reality and blaming Webber! :laugh:

I'm not a top fan of either, and in times past have been much more critical of Webber, both for over aggressive blocking and for lack of performance. But in this case I can't see anyone at fault other than Sebastian. He did not complete the pass, and he forced the collision.

[RJL25]

I think the only ones who are blaming Webber and Vettel fans, everyone else seems to be on Marks side, except the team ofcourse, so lets discuss that.

The team told Vettel to pass, they didnt tell Mark to let him through however, so the team is in a difficult spot! They can't get angry at Vettel because they told him to do it! So the only option left is to get angry and Mark because they where HOPING that he would just lie down and let him through, Horner is blaming Webber's engineer for not telling Webber to let him past, so in my view its a team stuff up for not conveying the message to Webber, but its very unfair of Marko and Horner for chopping Webber over this when they where the ones who f---ed up and forgot to tell Webber to let him past after they had already told Vettel that he was to pass and Webber would let you through!

[ioan]

So you still cant show any objectivity when it comes to vettel.
Sad. Really sad.

I don't give a rat's rear about your opinion. And I am perfectly happy with this.

[ioan]

Umm... Button did do the same to Hamilton a few laps later when he pulled up beside Hamilton on the outside coming up to turn 12 just a few laps later and it was good, close racing. They were in equivalent positions to Vettel and Webber, only Hamilton didn't veer right as Vettel did. Your own argument defeats what you're trying to say. Why not just say "it was Webber's fault because I don't like him", then you'd be at least making an honest argument.

The McLarens left each other place for overtaking, Webber didn't. I just thought I point out this little big difference.

[RJL25]

Hey everyone has their fravorite drivers, but when one car is driving in a straight line and the other driver turns his steering wheel right and makes contact with the other, how can you possibly blame the driver who was driving straight and not the driver who turned right?

Both drivers could have avoided the accident, Mark by getting out of the way, but at the end of the day the accident was caused by Vettel turning right into Webber, thats it!

Yes Webber could have moved right and given more space, but how was he supposed to know that Vettel was going to suddenly just turn right? They still wheren't anywhere near the braking zone, perhaps if they where in the braking zone and Mark still didn't move over then it would be a different story, but they still wheren't anywhere near teh braking zone, this was in the middle of a straight! Why should Mark move over on teh straight????

[ioan]

I don't get this, Mark was driving in a straight line, Vettel was driving in a straight line, with the speed differential Vettel would have continued to steam past and therefore comfortably take the corner,...

They also need to brake at some point in order to take that corner, and that is not easy when driving 300kmh and having your team 'mate' leave you 5 inches left and 5 inches right to brake after squeezing you on the dirty part of teh track.

If RBR gives the boot to Webber, he fully deserves it for being a lousy team 'mate', and given marko's comments this seems to be next move.

[markabilly]

Umm... Button did do the same to Hamilton a few laps later when he pulled up beside Hamilton on the outside coming up to turn 12 just a few laps later and it was good, close racing. They were in equivalent positions to Vettel and Webber, only Hamilton didn't veer right as Vettel did. Your own argument defeats what you're trying to say. Why not just say "it was Webber's fault because I don't like him", then you'd be at least making an honest argument.
look at it again....button moves over to the right much farther up the track and leaves room for both

[RJL25]

They also need to brake at some point in order to take that corner, and that is not easy when driving 300kmh and having your team 'mate' leave you 5 inches left and 5 inches right to brake after squeezing you on the dirty part of teh track.



Mate they wheren't anywhere near the braking zone, if they where in the braking zone then you'd have a point, but they wheren't there yet. There was still plenty of time before the braking zone for Mark to move over, but Vettel didn't give him the chance to do that, he moved over well before the braking zone.

[markabilly]

Mate they wheren't anywhere near the braking zone, if they where in the braking zone then you'd have a point, but they wheren't there yet. There was still plenty of time before the braking zone for Mark to move over, but Vettel didn't give him the chance to do that, he moved over well before the braking zone.
more non sense



anyway red bull says
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=800587&postcount=332

[airshifter]

Hey everyone has their fravorite drivers, but when one car is driving in a straight line and the other driver turns his steering wheel right and makes contact with the other, how can you possibly blame the driver who was driving straight and not the driver who turned right?



It's in the sporting regs, you just aren't aware of it.

Internet Forum F1 Sporting Regs, Article 6, Subtitle 3 clearly reads:

In the event of any overtaking move on track, all competition should clearly yield to your driver of choice. Failure to yeild to such a driver clearly invokes a term known as "racing". We are all well aware that nobody should race in Formula 1, thus the ruling.

Should anyone wish to eliminate confusion as to when this rule is invoked, simple refer to it as the "fanboi" clause. Should persons supporting more than one driver invoke the "fanboi" clause, first person to do so wins.

All video and still photo evidence is disallowed when invoking the fanboi clause. :D





As for the "in the braking zone" argument put up by some, I call BS. Video clearly shows that the contact happened before they even got to the very first braking zone sign, and even the worst cars on track weren't braking that early.

[RJL25]

how is it non sense? Where they not in the middle of a striaght? where they not yet in the braking zone? Did vettel not turn right and webber stay straight?

mate, your taking out of this what you want to take out of it, your not taking the facts.

[UltimateDanGTR]

It's in the sporting regs, you just aren't aware of it.

Internet Forum F1 Sporting Regs, Article 6, Subtitle 3 clearly reads:

In the event of any overtaking move on track, all competition should clearly yield to your driver of choice. Failure to yeild to such a driver clearly invokes a term known as "racing". We are all well aware that nobody should race in Formula 1, thus the ruling.

Should anyone wish to eliminate confusion as to when this rule is invoked, simple refer to it as the "fanboi" clause. Should persons supporting more than one driver invoke the "fanboi" clause, first person to do so wins.

All video and still photo evidence is disallowed when invoking the fanboi clause. :D



can I get a copy of the whole internet forum F1 regulations rulebook anywhere? :D

[TMorel]

Should persons supporting more than one driver invoke the "fanboi" clause, first person to do so wins.

I guess Horner called dibs first then

[RJL25]

I guess Horner called dibs first then

no doubt about it, RBR's number 1 driver is 5th in the championship and their number 2 is 1st... we live in interesting times

[Sonic]

I've only just seen the race so I've missed a lot of the fun but for my 2 cents, Seb was not only a little twerp on the track, his true colours off the track are becoming clear. He wants the team wrapped round him and he is just simply not handling the fact that Webber is matching/beating him now.

Seb = Donkey.

[Retro Formula 1]

I'm struggleing to understand the criticism of Webber here?

It's not his job to make additional room for someone to pass. There was plenty of room for Seb to pass and he moved into the gap. If he had of braked and held his line, he would have the inside line for the corner. He didn't but instead turned into his team mate.

Bone-headed avoidable incident and I will be surprised if the FIA don't penalise him for denying Webber the win.

RBR as a team are trying their hardest to lose this championship. They should have taken 1-2 in just about all the races so far.

[ioan]

It's not his job to make additional room for someone to pass.

His job is what the teams tells him to do, and what the team expected was to give more space when racing his team mate.
This is how it works when you have a boss who employs you and pays for your services and not for your slip-ups.

[Tazio]

I'm giving it to Ferrari. The whole team.
For showing up at a race thinking they had made progress on the rest of the field, and in fact actually losing ground. Not a great day for the Tifosi.
Better buck up boys!

[ioan]

I'm giving it to Ferrari. The whole team.
For showing up at a race thinking they had made progress on the rest of the field, and in fact actually losing ground. Not a great day for the Tifosi.
Better buck up boys!

What happened to '6 tenths'? He couldn't get them through the Turkish customs check or what?!

Alonso was supposed to be the very best driver and car developer out there, I guess he lost those too since MS came back.

[import111]

His job is what the teams tells him to do, and what the team expected was to give more space when racing his team mate.
This is how it works when you have a boss who employs you and pays for your services and not for your slip-ups.

Not really racing your team mate if you give them all the room in the world to pass are you? This has happened before and it will happen again in all forms of racing.

[F1boat]

His job is what the teams tells him to do, and what the team expected was to give more space when racing his team mate.
This is how it works when you have a boss who employs you and pays for your services and not for your slip-ups.

Bollocks. Vettel needs to learn that nobody is in the race to make him look like the new Schu.
Actually, I am not sure that he is better than the old Schu now.

[SGWilko]

What happened to '6 tenths'?

Can you keep a secret?

He never had it - it was all just cobblers.

It's all falling apart on him now.

[airshifter]

His job is what the teams tells him to do, and what the team expected was to give more space when racing his team mate.
This is how it works when you have a boss who employs you and pays for your services and not for your slip-ups.


If not for team orders being banned, I might agree with you. As it stands team orders are illegal, thus Mark doesn't have to yeild just because the team wants him to do so.

[airshifter]

can I get a copy of the whole internet forum F1 regulations rulebook anywhere? :D

No.

By nature the Internet Forum F1 Sporting Regs are to be made up day by day, by each forum member.

However, being the first to state it, my vote on the Fanboi rule will outrule any other forum member invoking the Fanboi rule.

In the event these threads continue much longer I may have to be the first to invoke the Whiners rule. :D

[markabilly]

Can you keep a secret?

He never had it - it was all just cobblers.

It's all falling apart on him now.
BS

He had it, but some renegade engineer for ferrari stole it and sent it to LH along with some new ear jewelry

[markabilly]

If not for team orders being banned, I might agree with you. As it stands team orders are illegal, thus Mark doesn't have to yeild just because the team wants him to do so.
Yeah that is why they started hollering "save fuel" as soon as button started racing lewis....it was to save fuel...

[RMLCruzeing82]

I dont care what any of you Vettel fans say, Webber is not the one to blame here.

Regardless of how you feel about were Webber was you just dont move on your team mate like Vettel did.

If you look on the reply you can see Webber giving Vettel enough room to move but making Vettel know he wasn't going to give up the place just like that, Webber keeps his ground and Vettel moves on Webber. end of

Vettel at fault

Webber in the clear

Vettel for the boot and replace by a team player not some egotistic young brat that thinks if himself in every race

[i_max2k2]

Vettel just put himself in an position where the only thing he could have done was to slow down, since Mark was not giving up that position, from homer's statement it seems, that he wants to back Vettel, even though it was his move which din't stick, and forced both of them off good results, I guess its not as simple as to accept that your favorite driver cocked up, and definitely gave away the 1-2 result. From all of it, it was Vettel's 3 weeks of frustration behind his team mate, he went for a move which would have been hard to stick, and took of his team mate. He hasn't matured as much as a driver as some of the other world champions, as how Button & Hamilton displayed, racing between team mates.

[Retro Formula 1]

Mark was in Fuel saving mode and Seb tried to get by as he has every right to. He doesn't have the right to crash into his team mate.

[ioan]

Bollocks.

We'll talk again when RBR will point Webber towards the door.

[Big Ben]

Another brilliant drive from Massa.

[Zico]

Vettel clearly at fault from watching the clips, how anyone can even try to argue otherwise is beyond me.

[yodasarmpit]

Vettel

[Jag_Warrior]

I like Vettel very much. I see him as a future WDC. I'm OK with Webber, but he's certainly not a favorite on my list. With that said, executing and COMPLETING the pass is the responsibility of the driver to the rear. Webber gave him little room (which is typical of him), but it appeared that Vettel cut to the right before he should have. Especially since it was his teammate, I put the blame on Vettel. From what I've read so far, the team doesn't see it that way and are spinning it against Webber. IMO, that's both unfortunate and wrong.

The donkey of the race was going to be the right rear tire changer for McLaren... until Vettel stole the trophy from him. :p

[tacksharp]

I like Vettel very much. I see him as a future WDC. I'm OK with Webber, but he's certainly not a favorite on my list. With that said, executing and COMPLETING the pass is the responsibility of the driver to the rear. Webber gave him little room (which is typical of him), but it appeared that Vettel cut to the right before he should have. Especially since it was his teammate, I put the blame on Vettel.

Exactly, 100% Vettel's fault. I'm not a fan of Webber but the idea that the leader of the race should concede his position (by backing off or veering right instead of holding his line) as some have suggested is ridiculous.


From what I've read so far, the team doesn't see it that way and are spinning it against Webber. IMO, that's both unfortunate and wrong.

Yup, Christian Horner has thrown Webber under the bus. I'm a bit surprised, but now it's clear that he sees Vettel as the golden boy and should be favored, even though his two drivers were even on points.

Time for Webber to shop for a new team.

[Ari]

The McLarens left each other place for overtaking, Webber didn't. I just thought I point out this little big difference.

Webber went in a straight line. Vettel drove into the side of him. Webber is an F1 driver and NOT going to yield... not to his team mate, not to the Queen. He is there to win.

Should Vettel have got down to the corner and stayed on the inside it was then his responsibility to 'own' the corner and hug it slowing down the other guys. Thats how EVERY other overtake happens.

Remember, Mark did NOT hit Vettel. Vettel hit Webber. He moved across into him in a "hey, move over Pal... I want racing line" move. Webber did not play. Had Webber moved over he may as well have handed him his balls in a jar as well.

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/7280/fghgf.jpg

[RJL25]

Yep, when contact was made Vettel was actually half a car width away from the white line, a long long way from being forced onto the grass like Ioan and Markabilly are trying to suggest

It sucks when someone presents some hard evidence and blows the absolute crap out of your arguments doesn't it.... if anything Mark was actually easing to the right, not by a lot, but he at the very least wasn't moving into Vettel's path, he was moving away from it slightly, Vettel on the other hand blatently and deliberately drove directly into Webbers path and got dropped as a result, totally 100% deserved it! hows 5th place in the WDC working for you Seb???

[RJL25]

Infact, the preceding corner was a right hander which meant that the drivers exit that corner on the left hand side of the road, so webber was ALREADY on the left hand side of the road as a result of the previous corner, he stayed on the left and it was vettel who ducked into a gap that was barely there, webber didn't bloody move over on him at all! HE WAS ALREADY TEHRE!

God seriously honestly those who think Webber was in the wrong seriously need to get onto youtube and have a look at the footage again! Theres absolutely no way known that you cold put the blame on webber for that after watching the reply again...

[markabilly]

Webber went in a straight line. Vettel drove into the side of him. Webber is an F1 driver and NOT going to yield... not to his team mate, not to the Queen. He is there to win.

Should Vettel have got down to the corner and stayed on the inside it was then his responsibility to 'own' the corner and hug it slowing down the other guys. Thats how EVERY other overtake happens.

Remember, Mark did NOT hit Vettel. Vettel hit Webber. He moved across into him in a "hey, move over Pal... I want racing line" move. Webber did not play. Had Webber moved over he may as well have handed him his balls in a jar as well.


more nonsense...and BTW, your caps show where the racing line is and that they were far off of it...note the skid marks.

and since you are so very hard on Vettel, and being hateful, you need to change your sig:


\"If you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver. Because we are competing. We are competing to win. And the main motivation to all of us is to compete for a victory. It is not to come third, fourth, fifth or sixth. I race to win\".


so Vettel went for the gap, and Webber did his usual blocker smush up.....
and if you would note my comments over in the sig about captioning Vettel's photo, you would see I am no fanboi of Vettel, but I am not a fan boy of Webber, and have not been ever since he blocked hamilton on the straight at the Frence GP almost into the pit wall.

Red Bull, Webber's bosses, have already made it clear who they really think responsisble when they make it clear not enough room was given....they are not talking about vettel...

[CNR]

more nonsense...and BTW, your caps show where the racing line is and that they were far off of it...note the skid marks.

and since you are so very hard on Vettel, and being hateful, you need to change your sig:


so Vettel went for the gap, and Webber did his usual blocker smush up.....
and if you would note my comments over in the sig about captioning Vettel's photo, you would see I am no fanboi of Vettel, but I am not a fan boy of Webber, and have not been ever since he blocked hamilton on the straight at the Frence GP almost into the pit wall.

Red Bull, Webber's bosses, have already made it clear who they really think responsisble when they make it clear not enough room was given....they are not talking about vettel...

mark webber to ferrari

http://i45.tinypic.com/ne730n.jpg large image
http://i45.tinypic.com/eagvew.jpg

[Ari]

more nonsense...and BTW, your caps show where the racing line is and that they were far off of it...note the skid marks.

Why did they NEED to be on the racing line? I thought an overtake was in the process. Racing line is the last place they should have been.

When they arrived at the corner THEN racing line maybe.... but it's still Vettels responsibility.


and since you are so very hard on Vettel, and being hateful, you need to change your sig:
Please don't compare Vettel to Senna... in any way. Vettel had a gap and good on him, he went for it.... BUT he hadnt made the overtake stick at that time. He was too early to move over.


so Vettel went for the gap, and Webber did his usual blocker smush up.....
Webber held his line. He did not have to move anywhere. They were not ito the corner as yet.


and if you would note my comments over in the sig about captioning Vettel's photo, you would see I am no fanboi of Vettel, but I am not a fan boy of Webber, and have not been ever since he blocked hamilton on the straight at the Frence GP almost into the pit wall.
N/A.


Red Bull, Webber's bosses, have already made it clear who they really think responsisble when they make it clear not enough room was given....they are not talking about vettel...

Red Bull have shown that they want Vettel to win the WDC.

[Jag_Warrior]

Yeah that is why they started hollering "save fuel" as soon as button started racing lewis....it was to save fuel...

Ya know how I know that was a smart move on McLaren's part? #1, that was to the rules. And #2, the Red Bulls had been 1-2, but after their clusterf###, they wound up 3-22. McLaren put an end to the silliness before it got out of hand. Red Bull did not.

It'll be hard to say how much longer term damage this will do to Red Bull. Apart from losing the Constructor's lead, etc., they may wind up with a team that's about to split down the middle and turn inward against itself. And to be honest, I think Horner's big mouth is going to hurt the situation, and not help it at all. We'll see. But I think Horner gets my vote for the 2nd Donkey of the Race.

[PSfan]

Mark Webber's admission of guilt:


Umm. I obviously wasn't totally happy with the situation because obviously he was coming down the inside, and I thought that at that stage I was pretty much not giving the lead up but it was pretty much his corner, well, not his corner but his situation because he was on the inside, but I just stayed on the inside, tight, to make sure that he was still staying on the dirty stuff and then on the run over the crest, obviously after the crest, he started to come back my way and that's when we touched.

this is pretty consistent with the commetns I read about Vettel stating he had just "lost it" thats kinda what happens sometimes when your at speed on the dirty line. And why Red Bull should be pissed that Webber choose not to give his team-mate space... Webber to Ferrari? why the ef would they want that selfish jack-bass...

[Jag_Warrior]

Webber to Ferrari? why the ef would they want that selfish jack-bass...

To act as a bookend to the one they've already got (Alonso)? :p :D

[Ari]

They werent on the corner yet.... still a way until the braking. Vettel just ran out of talent and shat himself and Webber didn't budge.

[Marbles]

Got to admit I was shocked when Brundle blamed Vettle 100%. At some point the poor ******* has to get back on the racing line. I suppose they could have found some fault with their buddy Webber if he had continued to drive the two of them straight off the track.

Ferchrissakes, even Webber looked and sounded contrite in the post race. interview.

[Ent]

"Sebastian got me on the inside and I thought okay, I would just stay in the middle, as straight as I can, to make his line as tight as possible into the next corner. And once we got to the braking point, he was obviously [going to be] in a very strong position.

"But before we got there he came across to the right and I couldn't react fast enough, because I wasn't at all expecting that at that point, and that's why it happened so fast and there was contact."


"If you watch it on the TV, you can see what happened. I'm not in the happiest of moods. I was on the inside going into the corner. I was there, I was ahead and focusing on the braking point and then we touched. Mark's car hit my rear right wheel and I went off – there's not much more to say."

I think this issue has been commented on enough and no one now is going to change their mind on the issue. I thought I'd post some of the comments by the drivers that are coming out now. I've underlined some interesting parts that seem to give us some clues as to why the accident happened. Webber says he was putting pressure of Vettel by holding his line while still on the straight, while Vettel says he had switched his concentration to the next corner.

[markabilly]

well I have looked again.

I think I know why people are so wanting to blame vettel for running into Webber

if you look carefully, you will see Vettel move over slightly and their wheels are interlocked but not touching and then webber slows (or Vettel moves faster) enough for Webber's front tire to contact vetttel's rear tire and the contact violently throws vettel into Webber-in a microsecond, and it does appear that vettel has simply slammed his car over and cut into webber...


-It looks like the initial contact was about half the width of the front tires of Webber's vehicle with the outer third of Vettel's car.

[Valve Bounce]

well I have looked again.

I think I know why people are so wanting to blame vettel for running into Webber

if you look carefully, you will see Vettel move over slightly and their wheels are interlocked but not touching and then webber slows (or Vettel moves faster) enough for Webber's front tire to contact vetttel's rear tire and the contact violently throws vettel into Webber-in a microsecond, and it does appear that vettel has simply slammed his car over and cut into webber...


-It looks like the initial contact was about half the width of the front tires of Webber's vehicle with the outer third of Vettel's car.

This totally contradicts Helmut Marko's view:
Asked for his views on the accident, Marko reckons that Vettel was in the right to turn across the track, even with Webber there, since the German had got his nose ahead.

"He [Vettel] was already ahead, at least two metres ahead, and there was a corner to the left side coming, so he had to go for the line," he said. "He cannot brake on the dirt because for sure he knows what happens.

But having carefully considered both viewpoints, I am inclined to go 90% with Markabilly, 10% being uncertain, and 0% with Marko.

[Kevincal]

newsflash, most passes in F1 are made OFF of the main racing line! Sure Vettel started to pass Webber BUT HE DIDNT COMPLETE the freaking pass, he just turned right into Mark... Mark is leading the freaking race and has every right to hold his ground... Vettel should have stayed his line and tried to outbrake mark, instead of turning into him while trying to get the optimal entrance line to the corner... Anyone who says Webber is at fault at is insane. I think Mark is not as angry as he would be in almost any other circumstance because hes won the last 2 races and got 3rd this race while his teammate is making an ass of himself. Thats why Marks comments about the accident are sort of confusing, hes in such a good mood that he wont even blame vettel cus infact Mark benefits greatly from this stupid move by Vettel by gaining many valuable championship points over him, many more than if they finished 1 - 2..........

[rah]

Was a numpty move. I think Vettel stuffed up, but Webber is no innocent party on this one either. Call it a racing incident and move on.

[Sonic]

newsflash, most passes in F1 are made OFF of the main racing line! Sure Vettel started to pass Webber BUT HE DIDNT COMPLETE the freaking pass, he just turned right into Mark... Mark is leading the freaking race and has every right to hold his ground... Vettel should have stayed his line and tried to outbrake mark, instead of turning into him while trying to get the optimal entrance line to the corner... Anyone who says Webber is at fault at is insane. I think Mark is not as angry as he would be in almost any other circumstance because hes won the last 2 races and got 3rd this race while his teammate is making an ass of himself. Thats why Marks comments about the accident are sort of confusing, hes in such a good mood that he wont even blame vettel cus infact Mark benefits greatly from this stupid move by Vettel by gaining many valuable championship points over him, many more than if they finished 1 - 2..........

Indeed, you have to view this in the context of a full season of racing as team mates. The obvious measure of a driver is can he beat his team mate? Vettel is desperate to reclaim his number 1 status on the track so I can just about understand why he put the squeeze on Webber, however in the context of the year he must have know that Mark is just not the kind of driver to yield like that.

Perhaps in the heat of the moment he forgot everything he knows abouts his team mate, however to keep blaming Mark when he turned his own wheel directly at the sister Red Bull is just arrogant.

Let's not forget this is a non contact sport and this was an avoidable collision. Seb had been left a single cars width to play with (which was tough but fair) and all he had to do was hold the wheel straight. He also had other options - if you watch the replay there is a half second where he toys with going past on the right.

Finally in the context of previous seasons I am surprised there is no punishment for Vettel. Mark did something similar to Rubens at the ring and got an immediate drive through - you are not allowed to turn into another car. End of story.

[Dzeidzei]

Ferchrissakes, even Webber looked and sounded contrite in the post race. interview.

Webber was cool and didnt want to say anything. He had the brains not to make it more difficult, so points for that.

I like Vettel as a guy and he is future wdc but this still has his name written all over it. You just cannot expect the other guy to bend over. Unless it was Barrichello or Irvine :)

[ShiftingGears]

Thats why Marks comments about the accident are sort of confusing,

Webber was thinking very hard about what he said in the conference, he simply described what happened and was careful not to apportion blame to any party involved.

Unlike Vettel.

[SGWilko]

BS
jewelry

Is that new religion, or did you mean jewlery?

[SGWilko]

mark webber to ferrari


Poor Onslo will have kittens, throw a wobbly, grass up the team and leave.








Again.
In fact I know a song by the Quo that describes Onslo's paddys rather well.....

[Dave B]

Again.
In fact I know a song by the Quo that describes Onslo's paddys rather well.....
Break the Rules?
Acident Prone?
Don't Drive My Car?
Burning Bridges?
Little White Lies?

:p

[jens]

I have to admit Vettel was more at fault in this incident. Based on this I'm starting to have doubts about his racecraft, also remembering the collision in Oz last year. Whether this is something that time can iron out, remains to be seen. But out of 7 races so far he has had only 2 troublefree ones and this was the worst way of losing points. What a pity. If this keeps going, he will start reminding me Alesi's phrase - "If anything can possibly go wrong, it will."

But if Vettel can take anything positive out of this weekend, it is the fact that he easily managed to keep Webber's pace all race and the latter's "magical dominance" from the previous two races has disappeared. Maybe a sign that Vettel is getting over his "speed-problems"?

[dwboogityfan]

The likes of Martin Brundle, David Coulthard, Alex Wurz, Lewis Hamilton and Anthony Davidson have more F1 experience than any of us and they all blame Vettel. That'll do for me.
I do wonder what's going on at Red Bull though, something seems a bit strange about telling the leader to back off and not the second placed car.
Back on topic I do find it amusing how Vettel and Webber have managed to surpass the real donkey of the weekend - Tonio Liuzzi! Really poor performance from him again. Get DiResta in.

[Bagwan]

well I have looked again.

I think I know why people are so wanting to blame vettel for running into Webber

if you look carefully, you will see Vettel move over slightly and their wheels are interlocked but not touching and then webber slows (or Vettel moves faster) enough for Webber's front tire to contact vetttel's rear tire and the contact violently throws vettel into Webber-in a microsecond, and it does appear that vettel has simply slammed his car over and cut into webber...


-It looks like the initial contact was about half the width of the front tires of Webber's vehicle with the outer third of Vettel's car.

By Jove , Billy old man , I think you've got it .

There is very slight movement to the right by Sebastian , and then there is the sudden lurch , which is being seen , I believe , as intentional , by Vettel .
I think you've got it right , though , that the sudden lurch is the result of the speeds of the cars changing , into the braking zone , with wheels interlocked .

That the Bull team is seemingly siding with Sebastian says to me is that they have the telemetry that would show that Mark lifted while interlocked , when he had loads of room to the right .
He said "Sebastian got me on the inside..." .

He knew he was done already , and decided to make it hard for Seb , keeping him tight .
That thinking is ok , but only if you had a plan to act when the next corner arrived .

The only plan it works with , is the idea that you try to keep him tight enough to compromise his exit , and get him on the out .

The intention is to keep him on the dirty , tighter line , so he has less grip for the brakes , and more momentum to try to pull around the tighter radius , making him slide long .
Coming from the outside , you have more grip and take a wider turn , slowing earlier , putting your power down sooner , as the other guy is sliding by , going from no grip inside , across the grippy line , and again , into the marbles on the outside of the turn .


Now , the only way that you can get in trouble with this move is if you squeeze in and lift or brake while interlocked .


Webber , himself , told us that Sebastian had passed him .
After that comment , I fully agree with Sebastian's hand gesture .

[markabilly]

By Jove , Billy old man , I think you've got it .

There is very slight movement to the right by Sebastian , and then there is the sudden lurch , which is being seen , I believe , as intentional , by Vettel .
I think you've got it right , though , that the sudden lurch is the result of the speeds of the cars changing , into the braking zone , with wheels interlocked .

That the Bull team is seemingly siding with Sebastian says to me is that they have the telemetry that would show that Mark lifted while interlocked , when he had loads of room to the right .
He said "Sebastian got me on the inside..." .

He knew he was done already , and decided to make it hard for Seb , keeping him tight .
That thinking is ok , but only if you had a plan to act when the next corner arrived .

The only plan it works with , is the idea that you try to keep him tight enough to compromise his exit , and get him on the out .

The intention is to keep him on the dirty , tighter line , so he has less grip for the brakes , and more momentum to try to pull around the tighter radius , making him slide long .
Coming from the outside , you have more grip and take a wider turn , slowing earlier , putting your power down sooner , as the other guy is sliding by , going from no grip inside , across the grippy line , and again , into the marbles on the outside of the turn .


Now , the only way that you can get in trouble with this move is if you squeeze in and lift or brake while interlocked .


Webber , himself , told us that Sebastian had passed him .
After that comment , I fully agree with Sebastian's hand gesture .
yeah and a second before that, vettel made the first little swerve and went straight, then made a second little swerve and seemed to be going straight, again, but the wheels were now interlocked.

at that point, I can not tell, if webber braked, lifted, or was just going slower and /or Seb was on the gas harder or what....then the very slight contact occurs, and wham --my guess this was all in about one--maybe two-- tenth of a second from the first swerve, second swerve and then the contact.

In any event, all of this in a micro second, where you have to try to go frame by frame with the incamera view and so forth


Those little swerves are something I have seen many times from one driver trying to push over another driver---telling him I am moving over---done it myself as well as been the receipent of same. And I got money that says Easy Drifter has done the same on a track.

And when the recepient like me, i always gave room, big time....not due to no balls, but I bought the machinery, it costs me hard earned money and I had no desire to trash my investment--did that enough times all by myself on a track, with nobody's assistance :(

In any event, it becomes a game of chicken, to see who blinks.....neither did, and the accident ocurred.

Or if a game of sportsmanship, it becomes a repetition of the lewis-hamilton battle

Now if there were a clear rule that webber must give room then I would say Webber's fault...but there does not seem to be, except that internal rule Marko claims his drivers were aware of (my suspicion is that Marko applies the rule to Webber, but if the spots were reversed, would not apply it to Seb :mad: ).......

so I just have to put it down as a racing incident under the current rules, esp given the lack of enforcement

[markabilly]

and the appearant fact that with the so called fuel saving adjustment (something that happens beyond driver control??) it may well be that webber's car was slightly slower as a result of this "turn down" at the point of contact

[Ent]

and the appearant fact that with the so called fuel saving adjustment (something that happens beyond driver control??) it may well be that webber's car was slightly slower as a result of this "turn down" at the point of contact

Agreed. This whole "saving fuel" thing is a joke. They need to make sure there's enough fuel in the cars to go racing and not tell the race leader to "slow down" when he's go his team mate and 2 McLarens right on his tail. It really is stupid and the indirect cause of the accident, so a proportion of the blame should go to the Red Bull team leaders.


"Where should Mark have gone?" Lewis Hamilton - who had a box-seat view of the incident that unfolded in front of him - told German television Sky. "I think the gap he left him was big enough. Even though Jenson and I both want to win, we also have respect for each other. I'm really happy that I have such a good relationship with my teammate."

Said Mercedes' Nico Rosberg: "Mark didn't move at all. For me, it was clearly Sebastian's fault."

Niki Lauda said the 22-year-old had been "much too aggressive", and former driver Alex Wurz noted in Turkey: "All my racing colleagues are in agreement that it was Vettel's fault."

[havk]

beautiful overtaking with braking on the dirty part of the track

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNLKb4r091w

[Roamy]

why does Webber need to move down for SEB. OH I am sure Senna would have moved down for Prost. It was a stupid pass attempt. Webber was clearly in his right. Seb needs to learn how to pass.

[steveaki13]

The whole Saving fuel thing, I think we all know as

hold station/slowdown/don't do anything to wreck our race.
(Or what ever you like)

But can anyone tell me when these calls were made. I mean did Mclaren make the call after the Bull collision or before and did Red Bull appear to say the same before the crash, I am not quite sure, so if you can clear that up for me as I might have misunderstood.

but I would fully understand if Mclaren made the call once the Red Bulls had gone because with a 1-2 in the bag and 30 seconds in hand what team wouldn't consider calling it off.

But for Red Bull IF they were telling one or both of their drivers to ease back a bit with the two Mclarens right behind, I don't think the Drivers would be that likley to listen with a win up for grabs. All in all if Red Bull told Webber to ease and Vettel to not ease or whatever way round it was then they must take some blame, because if your trying to move the order around or steady your cars while under so much pressure, then you are asking for trouble. With a race that close I would think a driver will follow his natural reactions and race at his limit.

[Bagwan]

why does Webber need to move down for SEB. OH I am sure Senna would have moved down for Prost. It was a stupid pass attempt. Webber was clearly in his right. Seb needs to learn how to pass.

Webber acknowledges he was already passed because Seb had the inside line .
The "stupid pass" was already made .

Webber squeezes him , and then is surprised he got touched .

One says "I was ahead .".
The other says , essentially , "he was ahead" .

Mark would have known to start the move right , to get a better line out , as he implies so in his statement , that Sebastian moved earlier than expected .

So , it ends in a judgement call between the two , just like in the heat of the moment , because we have no more than the two drivers' words here .

We don't have the telemetry to show us how much steering input there was .
We don't have engine traces to show who lifted and when , or the braking data , necessary for calling the final judgement .

But , Red Bull does , and if we are using the words the chastise them for harping on Webber , calling conspiracy against him , do we not have to imagine they are speaking with more data behind the opinion than ours ?

[Jag_Warrior]

why does Webber need to move down for SEB. OH I am sure Senna would have moved down for Prost. It was a stupid pass attempt. Webber was clearly in his right. Seb needs to learn how to pass.

I agree with you. While Vettel had a run on Webber, it was not a clear shot. But the big thing for me is that one shouldn't try the same dicey move on a team car (ESPECIALLY when they're running 1-2 in the last third of the race) as one would try on a non-team car. Why? Well, I think the result of what Vettel tried answers that question. Had he done this against Hamilton, Button, Massa or Alonso, I would have less of a problem with what he did.

And against ANY other car (including Webber's), if it had been the last race of the season and it was down to the championship, then OK. One would expect him to go for it. Like I said, I prefer Vettel over Webber by a long shot. But by attempting that move, he effectively f'ed himself and the team. And he did it at a time when the McLarens appear to be getting stronger. Vettel is still a youngster. It's easy to forget that sometimes. I just feel like an older, wiser racer would have seen the big picture, and made a better strategic decision.

[Allyc85]

You need to ask, its Vettel by a mile, followed by Horner!

[gloomyDAY]

Vettel is still a youngster. It's easy to forget that sometimes. I just feel like an older, wiser racer would have seen the big picture, and made a better strategic decision.Being a Vettel fan I am compelled to say the same about his age and experience. The reality is that Vettel has already buggered Webber once in the past (Japan 2008). Maybe they were on different teams, but ended in the same disastrous result. Seb just needs to use his head a little better and eventually a WDC will sprout.

[jens]

Although it was disappointing to see no-one else than Vettel himself being involved in such incident, on the other hand in retrospect I think I am and we should be all proud that F1 gives us such moments. Moments of heated battles and controversies, even embarrassing failures instead of processions. It will be quite an unforgettable memory you don't see every day, so try to take the maximum enjoyment from it. :) Team-mates crashing out from the lead. Just wow.

And as I compared Vettel's 2010 season to Alonso's 2004 in another thread, the Spaniard was at that time embarrassed quite a bit after his crash in the tunnel at Monaco. But he learnt from that and went on to win two consecutive WDC's.

[Jag_Warrior]

Although it was disappointing to see no-one else than Vettel himself being involved in such incident, on the other hand in retrospect I think I am and we should be all proud that F1 gives us such moments. Moments of heated battles and controversies, even embarrassing failures instead of processions. It will be quite an unforgettable memory you don't see every day, so try to take the maximum enjoyment from it. :) Team-mates crashing out from the lead. Just wow.

:up: Absolutely! This is why Formula One is my favorite form of motorsport by far. This is our second season of FANTASTIC racing! While other series have cars that go into fuel conservation mode about mid race and don't come out until the last few laps, F1 is balls to the wall from the time the lights go out until the checkered flag is waved.

Even when it doesn't work out, I have no doubts that I'm watching the best collection of drivers in the world when I watch an F1 race these days. I'd much rather be here discussing whether or not Vettel was in the wrong, as he went for the lead, than discussing what affect yellow flags had on the final results of some other races. That's not to put other series down, but F1 is kicking a$$ right now, IMO. Great stuff!!! :bounce:

[SGWilko]

Break the Rules?
Acident Prone?
Don't Drive My Car?
Burning Bridges?
Little White Lies?

:p

:up:

All of te above!

[Marbles]

Oh yeah, I loved the dicing between team mates as well. I just don't think Webber was the complete innocent in the exchange.

Save fuel, keep station and then the duelling. I couldn't help but think of Villeneuve vs. Pironi.

[Ent]

I, too, am glad that they were racing. This sort of thing happens, but it's a heck of a lot better than drivers not having a go or giving up on a corner too early. Vettel is young and he will learn from this. I can't wait to see how this inter-team rivalry will play out over the rest of the season.

[RJL25]

AT the end of the day, its time for redbull to instigate a pit stop rule.

After the pitstop, thats it, racing's over, whoever is in front at that point has won the race and its time to hold station.

It's not great for the specticle of the sport, but geez if you wanna win a world championship this is just what you have to do.

RBR is showing its extreem unprofessionalism throughout this entire incident and it has highlighted systemic problems within the team as well as making it perfectly bloody obvious for the entire world to see that in the eyes of both helmut marko and christian horner, the team is:

Number 1 - Sebastien Vettel (signed to a long term contract)

Distant Number 2 - Mark Webber (signed to a single year PERFORMANCE BASED contract despite having been at the team longer then Vettel)

[Retro Formula 1]

I would love to know how much fuel Mark finished with and if he really did need to go into fuel saving mode or whether it was a tactic from RBR to give Seb a unfair advantage???

[Mia 01]

Mark W.

[Gibbsy]

It takes two to tango, and Webber is a lousy dancer.
If all drivers did like him there would be no overtaking moves only crashes.

And his marker has been laid down years ago already when he was running into people every second races. I still remember the frustration of Fisichella back in 2005 or 2006 when Mark t-boned his car by trying one of his very few and desperate overtaking moves in F1.

Are you that stupid and bitter ioan? To bring up that incident?

In that one Webber was on the outside line where Fisi went too deep too fast into a corner and slid into MW.

As for this much talked about incident, The key is that Webber held his line as he has every right to. He didnt move twice, he didnt chop. Vettel chopped right before the pass was completed and took himself out. Serves the little spoilt brat right.

[Gibbsy]

I would love to know how much fuel Mark finished with and if he really did need to go into fuel saving mode or whether it was a tactic from RBR to give Seb a unfair advantage???

The fact that Mark finished with a flurry of fastest laps suggest the latter. If he needed to fuel save he wouldnt have been setting sub 1:30 laps towards the end.

[ShiftingGears]

Are you that stupid and bitter ioan? To bring up that incident?

In that one Webber was on the outside line where Fisi went too deep too fast into a corner and slid into MW.

As for this much talked about incident, The key is that Webber held his line as he has every right to. He didnt move twice, he didnt chop. Vettel chopped right before the pass was completed and took himself out. Serves the little spoilt brat right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdK5FU2Oc7E

That is the only thing I can find involving crashes between Fisi and Webber, and to blame Webber for being run into would be pathetic. There was more than enough room for Fisi if he didn't screw up.

That's like blaming Hamilton for Webber's crash in Australia this year.

[truefan72]

Although it was disappointing to see no-one else than Vettel himself being involved in such incident, on the other hand in retrospect I think I am and we should be all proud that F1 gives us such moments. Moments of heated battles and controversies, even embarrassing failures instead of processions. It will be quite an unforgettable memory you don't see every day, so try to take the maximum enjoyment from it. :) Team-mates crashing out from the lead. Just wow.



excellent post

[truefan72]

AT the end of the day, its time for redbull to instigate a pit stop rule.

After the pitstop, thats it, racing's over, whoever is in front at that point has won the race and its time to hold station.

It's not great for the specticle of the sport, but geez if you wanna win a world championship this is just what you have to do.

don't agree. I don;t want any agreements whatsoever. let the boys race and by default they will still win the WCC. Look at Mclaren in 2007. @ guys going at it hard and in reality miles ahead in the WCC.


RBR is showing its extreem unprofessionalism throughout this entire incident and it has highlighted systemic problems within the team as well as making it perfectly bloody obvious for the entire world to see that in the eyes of both helmut marko and christian horner, the team is:

Number 1 - Sebastien Vettel (signed to a long term contract)

Distant Number 2 - Mark Webber (signed to a single year PERFORMANCE BASED contract despite having been at the team longer then Vettel)

completely agree :up:

[truefan72]

The fact that Mark finished with a flurry of fastest laps suggest the latter. If he needed to fuel save he wouldnt have been setting sub 1:30 laps towards the end.

good point.
I never like Horner and Marko is turning out to be a biased guy towards Vettel.
Here they have the guy Webber winning 2 races in a row, in all honesty about to win his third, his closest competitor is in 2nd place who happens to be his teammate, and the team act as if Webber is simply in the way of Vettel. i always suspected as much at RBR, but this incident crystallizes it. If I were Webber I would be doing my own thing for the rest of the year and try my best to win the WDC and then look to join another team. I will not be at all surprised to see Webber's car suddenly suffer some "car performance set back"s from now on prompting the Fia to send a watchdog to the team at webber's request by the time they get to monza

[Garry Walker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdK5FU2Oc7E

That is the only thing I can find involving crashes between Fisi and Webber, and to blame Webber for being run into would be pathetic. There was more than enough room for Fisi if he didn't screw up.

That's like blaming Hamilton for Webber's crash in Australia this year.

Yep. That crash was 100% fisis fault.

[Bagwan]

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22318.html

Dig deeper .
Mark was told to move over , and let him go .
Mark disobeyed team orders .

Those orders came because Seb was faster .

Seb did what the team wanted , and his team told the world they were both at fault .

Nice work , donkeys .

The world thinks Mark got jerked around .
And the team knows Mark jerked his team-mate and his team around .

Nice work .

[Garry Walker]

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22318.html

Dig deeper .
Mark was told to move over , and let him go .
Mark disobeyed team orders .

'
If you want to argue a case, make the link supporting your points the kind that doesnt destroy your arguments and make you look foolish.


"Going into lap 40 team boss Christian Horner instructed Webber's engineer Ciaron Pilbeam to tell Webber to allow Vettel past. Pilbeam could not bring himself to pass the message on.

so, there is no proof Webber ever received any orders.

[SGWilko]

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22318.html

Dig deeper .
Mark was told to move over , and let him go .
Mark disobeyed team orders .

Those orders came because Seb was faster .

Seb did what the team wanted , and his team told the world they were both at fault .

Nice work , donkeys .

The world thinks Mark got jerked around .
And the team knows Mark jerked his team-mate and his team around .

Nice work .

Sorry Son, team orders are forbidden.

Nice work though.

[markabilly]

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22318.html

Dig deeper .
Mark was told to move over , and let him go .
Mark disobeyed team orders .

Those orders came because Seb was faster .

Seb did what the team wanted , and his team told the world they were both at fault .

Nice work , donkeys .

The world thinks Mark got jerked around .
And the team knows Mark jerked his team-mate and his team around .

Nice work .


:up:


If you want to argue a case, make the link supporting your points the kind that doesnt destroy your arguments and make you look foolish.



so, there is no proof Webber ever received any orders.


more whining....and unable to live by your own rules and unable to prove anything, unlike bagwell.....



Sorry Son, team orders are forbidden.

Nice work though.

Did not know you were bagwell's mommie...explains something....

[Garry Walker]

more whining....and unable to live by your own rules and unable to prove anything, unlike bagwell.....


What are you on about? Bagwan has yet to prove that Webber was told to move over and received that order, infact, the link he gave proved the opposite.

You really need to stop drinking so much cheap booze.

[SGWilko]

Did not know you were bagwell's mommie...explains something....

Bitty.......

[Daniel]

Bitty.......
:rotflmao:

[SGWilko]

:rotflmao:

I can picture him now with a white moustache...... :D

[markabilly]

So that was you on the couch, when he brought home his new girl....glad I missed that.... :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8orUaCJ0GY


:love:

i will stick with kool aid.....thanks
:beer: :beer:

[Bagwan]

Dig deeper .
Mark knew .
He knew when Seb got the run .
He felt double crossed by the team .
"Dig deeper" he said .
He had just asked they they tell him to back off , and he went for a tow and an outside move .

Tell me he didn't have the message already .

In fact , if his engineer had told him Seb was coming , he might not have played silly beggar and squeezed his team-mate .
He might have gotten the message a little clearer .

But , that is all assuming that the message was not passed on by the engineer .

Red Bull released the statment that there are no team orders , and then it was found that Horner issued one that was not passed on .

Which is true , that there are none , or that one wasn't passed on ?
They cannot both be true , so we are talking to liars .


I believe Mark knew .

[Bagwan]

Sorry Son, team orders are forbidden.

Nice work though.

Then , whatever source Autosport used should be asked about it in the inquiry into the RedBull team order fiasco .

[airshifter]

Then , whatever source Autosport used should be asked about it in the inquiry into the RedBull team order fiasco .

That I can agree with. But doesn't the FIA monitor the radio transmissions, making it able to prove that an order was or was not passed to the driver?

I would think that as far as legalities go, it is a yes or no answer. Though the desire by any member of the team to give an order would reflect in a negative way on that person and the teams credibility, the fact that it was not relayed would reflect in a positive way.

[PSfan]

Sorry Son, team orders are forbidden.

Nice work though.

Well, Max doesn't think he would have called it team orders:

"I cannot see that," said the Briton. "Vettel was under pressure from Lewis Hamilton, he was faster than Webber, and to shake off the McLaren he needed to pass the slower Webber.

"Even if this situation was declared to the drivers by radio, this would not be a team order or a manipulation of the drivers' championship, but rather an explanation of a particular situation - (it is) necessary information for the drivers."

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=803474

[SGWilko]

Well, Max doesn't think he would have called it team orders:

"I cannot see that," said the Briton. "Vettel was under pressure from Lewis Hamilton, he was faster than Webber, and to shake off the McLaren he needed to pass the slower Webber.

"Even if this situation was declared to the drivers by radio, this would not be a team order or a manipulation of the drivers' championship, but rather an explanation of a particular situation - (it is) necessary information for the drivers."

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=803474

When Max wades in uninvited, it's best to ignore the old giffer. Funny how pally he and Didi/Marko are, isn't it? ;)

Besides, Seb was best placed to play rear gunner and attempt to safeguard as many points possible for the team by holding the McLarens at bay.

It still shows a bias as the team were prepared to allow Mark to potentially lose places and thus points. Given it would appear RBR have now lost Circa 120 points due to poor reliability/strategy, this is something they can not afford.

[Mia 01]

When Max wades in uninvited, it's best to ignore the old giffer. Funny how pally he and Didi/Marko are, isn't it? ;)

Besides, Seb was best placed to play rear gunner and attempt to safeguard as many points possible for the team by holding the McLarens at bay.

It still shows a bias as the team were prepared to allow Mark to potentially lose places and thus points. Given it would appear RBR have now lost Circa 120 points due to poor reliability/strategy, this is something they can not afford.

Agreed. They have to make Seb the clear No 1.
Their only chance.

[Ranger]

Agreed. They have to make Seb the clear No 1.
Their only chance.

WDC: Webber 1st, Vettel 5th.

Points: Webber 93, Vettel 78.

Wins: Webber 2, Vettel 1.

Poles: Webber 4, Vettel 3.

Fastest Laps: Webber 2, Vettel 1.

:\

[Daniel]

It shouldn't be forgotten that if not for the incident the other day Seb would either be 1st or 2nd in the title. It would be silly to have a no 1 driver at this stage of the season but even sillier to make Vettel the 1st driver when he's 15 points behind. I think by the end of the season Vettel will be on top again.....

[markabilly]

WDC: Webber 1st, Vettel 5th.

Points: Webber 93, Vettel 78.

Wins: Webber 2, Vettel 1.

Poles: Webber 4, Vettel 3.

Fastest Laps: Webber 2, Vettel 1.

:\
in the hearts of horner, marko, and Mateschitz: Webber 0, Vettel 900.

:dozey:

[Bagwan]

They are talking Bull .

If , as reported in Autosport , they didn't get the message to Mark , and , since Seb tried to pass , we assume they did get the message to him , why did they not just initially call it a team screw-up .
And , why do they not just admit this now ?

This would clearly absolve both .

Can this all be simply traced back to the stupid consequences of the FIA making team orders illegal , when , as all can see , they are still necessary , and , indeed common in the sport .

They don't want to say they screwed up the team orders because they are illegal , so they stage a nicey nicey photo to show they are fine with the hard racing ?

They must have told Seb to pass , and he's been castigated for assuming his team-mate would give room .
And Mark , who would have been angry on that straight , when realizing Seb was taking advantage of his reduced mapping instead of holding station , decided to keep his line .

Big mistake not telling him .
He would have instantly felt betrayed by his team and team-mate .

And , Vettel would have had to assume that Mark would have been informed , if he had the order to pass , so his gestures right after the incident were entirely justified .
It's just that the gestures should have been pointed at the team , the insolent engineer , and ultimately the FIA .


When Max wades in , unrequested , one must assume that is what is being talked about behind those closed doors .
He seemingly doesn't think teams orders include asking one driver to allow another past .

[Daniel]

They are talking Bull .

If , as reported in Autosport , they didn't get the message to Mark , and , since Seb tried to pass , we assume they did get the message to him , why did they not just initially call it a team screw-up .
And , why do they not just admit this now ?

This would clearly absolve both .

Can this all be simply traced back to the stupid consequences of the FIA making team orders illegal , when , as all can see , they are still necessary , and , indeed common in the sport .

They don't want to say they screwed up the team orders because they are illegal , so they stage a nicey nicey photo to show they are fine with the hard racing ?

They must have told Seb to pass , and he's been castigated for assuming his team-mate would give room .
And Mark , who would have been angry on that straight , when realizing Seb was taking advantage of his reduced mapping instead of holding station , decided to keep his line .

Big mistake not telling him .
He would have instantly felt betrayed by his team and team-mate .

And , Vettel would have had to assume that Mark would have been informed , if he had the order to pass , so his gestures right after the incident were entirely justified .
It's just that the gestures should have been pointed at the team , the insolent engineer , and ultimately the FIA .


When Max wades in , unrequested , one must assume that is what is being talked about behind those closed doors .
He seemingly doesn't think teams orders include asking one driver to allow another past .
Nah it's easier to just assume that one driver just drove into the other for kicks.

[Mia 01]

in the hearts of horner, marko, and Mateschitz: Webber 0, Vettel 900.

:dozey:

Well, when you belive in a driver, why not support him wholehearted.

[Bagwan]

Nah it's easier to just assume that one driver just drove into the other for kicks.

Very true , Daniel .

Wouldn't this be a good time to clear up this team orders thing ?

This was all about one driver assuming the other would give way , and in a normal situation where both were racing hard , I still agree with you that Mark was silly to push as far as he did .
Even without the team order fiasco , I still believe , since Sebastian was ahead , that giving way for him to slide through would have been the only route for him to try to get it back inside on the exit from the turn .

Pushing him tight is fine , but risking locking wheels by pushing too tight was only foolish .

He knew he was beaten into that corner and put himself in harms way .

If he had gotten the order directly , it would have been worse behavior , defying the team .
It seems as though he should have known he was burnt , though , as Seb was passing just a short time after Webber had requested he lift .
So , in effect , Webber was defying team orders , even though they hadn't been officially issued to the driver by his engineer .

To admit this to the public would invite a huge amount of criticism , and even possible sanction .
It's early in the season , like that race back in Austria that prompted the stupid banning of team orders in the first place .

[PSfan]

When Max wades in uninvited, it's best to ignore the old giffer. Funny how pally he and Didi/Marko are, isn't it? ;)

Besides, Seb was best placed to play rear gunner and attempt to safeguard as many points possible for the team by holding the McLarens at bay.

It still shows a bias as the team were prepared to allow Mark to potentially lose places and thus points. Given it would appear RBR have now lost Circa 120 points due to poor reliability/strategy, this is something they can not afford.

Well, I really hate to say this, but in this instance, I completely agree with what Max had to say, so I really couldn't care less why he said it.

And I completely disagree with Vettel being best suited to being rear gunner. The best thing for red bull to do under the circumstances was to have one of there cars run away and create a gap in case the "rain in the next 8 mins" ever materialized, and Webber wasn't getting that job done.

And did you not watch the race, sure the team was prepared to allow mark to lose positions and points... but guess what, thats exactly what Webber did anyways!!!

[Bagwan]

Team orders that don't look like they bring the sport into disrepute in the eyes of the international press corps will be allowed , being that it is the most efficient corporate face time generator invented so far by the FIA .

I wonder if the full of Bull boys will share the wealth , though , and let some other teams have a good scandal , too .

[Bagwan]

Valid points but we can also ask the question, did Mark predict that Seb was going to move to the right once the wheels were interlocked? I know we've gone over this a hundred times but theres no getting away from the fact Seb assumed Mark would give way and tried to squeeze him over. I can find fault with both drivers in this instance, but had they entered the breaking zone side by side in a straight line, then Seb would have to have broken earlier due to the dirty side of the track, giving Mark the advantage. Seb has stated he wanted to break on the clean side of the track so felt Mark should have moved over for him.

I can see for the good of the team it would have been better if Seb had overtaken Mark, but these guys are in direct competition for the world championship and that is any drivers first concern. The team game is all well, but you can bet these guys know exactly the implications on the WDC should one of their closest rivals (teammate) finish ahead. This is just one of those competitive mistakes which happens from time to time.. :)

Does it not look , though , from the endless replays and stills , that the initial contact was made when the back of Marks front met the front of Seb's back tire ?
In which case , would it not have had to be Mark slowing first , whether an initial lift or indeed , braking ?

Mark slowed first , only slightly , but enough to touch while interlocked .

Neither had much time to react , and both had moved together .
Since Seb would definitely not have been still accellerating , we must assume Mark lifted first .

[Daniel]

Thats not something I feel happened if I'm honest. I've watched every replay in existance now or so it feels, and from a frontal shot of the incident there is a clear gap and it looks very much like Vettel's change in direction caused the impact. If you feel differently we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. This replay clip shows the rapid direction change and he appears to turn into Mark and Vettel's right rear seems to make contact with the side pod area of Marks car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C7Fh7AHQwQ&feature=fvst

From looking at the design of the RB6, the side pod has a very sharp lip which is most likely the cause of shredding Vettel's tyre.
There are screenshots which CLEARLY indicate that the contact was wheel to wheel.

[SGWilko]

Thats not something I feel happened if I'm honest. I've watched every replay in existance now or so it feels, and from a frontal shot of the incident there is a clear gap and it looks very much like Vettel's change in direction caused the impact. If you feel differently we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. This replay clip shows the rapid direction change and he appears to turn into Mark and Vettel's right rear seems to make contact with the side pod area of Marks car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C7Fh7AHQwQ&feature=fvst

From looking at the design of the RB6, the side pod has a very sharp lip which is most likely the cause of shredding Vettel's tyre.

That has got to be the clearest indiation yet that Seb caused the collision. There is no doubt at all fron that shot.

I would go as far as to suggest the lady hit Max so hard he had tears in his eyes, clearly clouding his judgement in this instance.

[SGWilko]

Whether Vettel's rear wheel hit Webber's rear wheel is still only a result of Vettels sudden direction change. The contact did not cause Vettels car to violently turn into Webber's and I'm sure nobody here is saying that. It can clearly be seen in the footage, and Vettel simply expected Webber to move across. Here's another slow motion angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9zIQvrdZU

vettel ist der Zerhacker

[Daniel]

Whether Vettel's rear wheel hit Webber's rear wheel is still only a result of Vettels sudden direction change. The contact did not cause Vettels car to violently turn into Webber's and I'm sure nobody here is saying that. It can clearly be seen in the footage, and Vettel simply expected Webber to move across. Here's another slow motion angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9zIQvrdZU
If their wheels were interlocked the only thing that could cause their wheels to hit is a speed differential.

[SGWilko]

If their wheels were interlocked the only thing that could cause their wheels to hit is a speed differential.

Or Vettel turning right.

You are clearly 'in the Nile'.

[PSfan]

That has got to be the clearest indiation yet that Seb caused the collision. There is no doubt at all fron that shot.


Funny, I see that video (like the many clips before it) as a clear indication that it was Webbers fault...

Pause that video at the 6 second mark. Yup that is the corner of a McLeran on the racing line, and look at the 2 cars that eventually made contact with each other.... BOTH RED BULLS!!!! Its clearly webbers fault because instead of racing his team-mate like it was the only other car on the f'n track, he should have conceded the position and defended 2nd place from that point... (NOT BE HELL BENT ON RETAINING A LEAD HE HAD LOST THE MOMENT HE WAS TOLD TO CONSERVE FUEL!!!

[SGWilko]

Funny, I see that video (like the many clips before it) as a clear indication that it was Webbers fault...

Pause that video at the 6 second mark. Yup that is the corner of a McLeran on the racing line, and look at the 2 cars that eventually made contact with each other.... BOTH RED BULLS!!!! Its clearly webbers fault because instead of racing his team-mate like it was the only other car on the f'n track, he should have conceded the position and defended 2nd place from that point... (NOT BE HELL BENT ON RETAINING A LEAD HE HAD LOST THE MOMENT HE WAS TOLD TO CONSERVE FUEL!!!

The moment you stop racing and give up in F1, you may as well go play DTM or one of the myriad contrived 'across the pond' series.

[Daniel]

Surely if their wheels were interlocked, Vettel's wheel was infront of Webbers. If this is the case then it would have been Vettel who slowed to make contact, either that or Mark suddenly had enough speed to accelerate into Vettel's rear wheel lol.

I still think its a simple case of Vettel turning into Mark. What you are suggesting doesn't make sense to me, sorry. :\

Tell me how Vettel slowing down caused the FRONT of his rear tyre to hit the BACK of Webber's front tyre? It didn't, because you didn't quite think that post out now did you? :dozey:

[Daniel]

I think agreeing to disagree is the best option here as I'm never going to share your view, and unlike yourself I'm not going to get agitated over it. As I've maintained, the wheel to wheel contact did not cause the coming together, and was simply the result of an ill thought out squeeze. I'm pretty sure in future Mark will have abit more respect for Vettel in a similar situation, and will expect the unexpected. :)
No no no.

Explain how the back of Webber's tyre hit the front of Vettel's tyre without Webber slowing down? I'm intrigued at how Vettel was able to bend the laws of physics....

[SGWilko]

No no no.

Explain how the back of Webber's tyre hit the front of Vettel's tyre without Webber slowing down? I'm intrigued at how Vettel was able to bend the laws of physics....

(you've been reading Monkey Puzzle, haven't you, with your No, no, no......? ;) )

'ang on a minute.

Are you suggesting Webber slowed down to let Vettel past? If so, Seb fubared that one up a bit.

Seb was going faster, due - I imagine - not only to the tow, but the more powerful fuel setting.

So really, all Seb had to do was complete the pass before turning in. After all, he had the room to do so. And he didn't because......?

He tried to do to Mark what he did to Lewis - put the frightners on and make him move over.

Methinks Mark has considerably larger cohones than 'wet behind the ears' Seb! :p

[goodf1fun]

donkey of the race in greek: Γαουρκα του αγωνα

[Daniel]

(you've been reading Monkey Puzzle, haven't you, with your No, no, no......? ;) )

'ang on a minute.

Are you suggesting Webber slowed down to let Vettel past? If so, Seb fubared that one up a bit.

Seb was going faster, due - I imagine - not only to the tow, but the more powerful fuel setting.

So really, all Seb had to do was complete the pass before turning in. After all, he had the room to do so. And he didn't because......?

He tried to do to Mark what he did to Lewis - put the frightners on and make him move over.

Methinks Mark has considerably larger cohones than 'wet behind the ears' Seb! :p
I merely took issue with the interesting idea that an object behind another object could hit the object in front by slowing down :)

[SGWilko]

donkey of the race in greek: Γαουρκα του αγωνα

Wassat mean - lend us a Tenner, the country is broke? ;)

[Daniel]

Surely if their wheels were interlocked, Vettel's wheel was infront of Webbers. If this is the case then it would have been Vettel who slowed to make contact, either that or Mark suddenly had enough speed to accelerate into Vettel's rear wheel lol.

I still think its a simple case of Vettel turning into Mark. What you are suggesting doesn't make sense to me, sorry. :\



By turning sharply into the side of Webber. Vettel was moving faster than Webber at the time and was making the pass stick when he sharply turned to the right. His rear wheel was slotted in between Webbers front and back wheel, and with the momentum from his slip stream, he was able to catch the rear part of Webber front wheel as he turned into him. Both cars were out of the braking zone and Webber had no need to change his speed at this point. I'm with the majority on this one, sorry. :)

You seem to change your tune rather quickly it seems :)

[SGWilko]

I merely took issue with the interesting idea that an object behind another object could hit the object in front by slowing down :)

If the wheels were interlocked, speeding up OR slowing down would have the same effect, just a different wheel connecting with the other.

However, I'm gonna change my tune, from 'Grandad' by Clive Dunn, to 'Aint No Pleasin' You', by those cockney jokers Chas 'n Dave. :laugh:

[Daniel]

Maybe I worded the previous post incorrectly, but hey I'll admit that and take it like a man. ;)

So would you agree the latest installment is perfectly viable? :)
It's possible yes. Do I feel it's what happened? No, but we'll agree to disagree on that.

[Mia 01]

Mark had plenty of space at his right side, Sebs left wheels was nearly off track. Mark squized Seb off, nothing new there.

[SGWilko]

Mark had plenty of space at his right side, Sebs left wheels was nearly off track. Mark squized Seb off, nothing new there.

Look at Henners posts above, Seb's wheels never touch the white line, let alone go over it. He had enough room.

[SGWilko]

ffs. :rolleyes:

Fetch the Finnish Shooter?

[PSfan]

The moment you stop racing and give up in F1, you may as well go play DTM or one of the myriad contrived 'across the pond' series.

What, are you trying to raise Max Mosleys credibility?!?!?

"Remember, both cars were doing almost 300kph, so considering the risk, he (Webber) should have taken a chance to improve his position at another point in the race."

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-mosley-blames-webber-for-vettel-collision/

Max is making a whole lot more sense then you are. Guess everyone who suggested Button's drop in form last year because "he was racing for the championship" should be a little embarrassed now, Guess once you stop racing for the wins you might as well pack it up and go dtm or to this side of the pond!!! Please remind me, where did Webber finish... 3rd was it? I think finishing 2nd behind Vettel would have been a better result, Be real funny if at the end of the season, Hamilton wins the championship over Webber by a couple points...

BTW: I meant to post that speedtv link the last time I quoted from the article, guess my copy and paste skills are a little rusty... :cheese:

[PSfan]

Methinks Mark has considerably larger cohones than 'wet behind the ears' Seb! :p

This is one of those situations where I think I might agree with you here... I think Vettel had quickly gotten his car in that magical 1/2 car ahead position that makes it hard to see the other car, Probably figured Webber couldn't have been so retarded as to continue the losing battle for the corner, guess Mark proved him wrong on that count. On the other hand, Mark's cohones must be pretty big to be able to see the position and possible danger and do nothing about it

[SGWilko]

where did Webber finish... 3rd was it? I think finishing 2nd behind Vettel would have been a better result

Funnee!

Why did Vettel want past according to the team? Beause he/they were scared Lewis would get by....

How would that affect Webber in fuel save mode?

If Vettel had saved fuel, he should have continued to do so while holding back Lewis, if Lewis made a pass, Seb had the fuel to turn up the wick to defend......

As far as I'm concerned, only time Max made sense was when he quit....






.....finally.

[SGWilko]

figured Webber couldn't have been so retarded as to continue the losing battle for the corner,

Aha, this is the point.

Mark knew as long as he held him to the dirty side, he (Mark) could brake later as he had clean tyres, and would own the corner. NOt retarded at all, rather clever and cunning in fact.

[SGWilko]

Guess everyone who suggested Button's drop in form last year because "he was racing for the championship" should be a little embarrassed now, Guess once you stop racing for the wins you might as well pack it up and go dtm or to this side of the pond!!!

Hmmmm. The lead the Brawns - not Just JB - had last year at mid-point, dictated he could play it safe to a point, as the hard work had already been done.

If you think either of the Bulls can play the numbers game, then your coffee is too weak. ;) Mark had/has the momentum - he wants to keep it, Seb wants it back. Unstoppable force/immovable object.

[PSfan]

Aha, this is the point.

Mark knew as long as he held him to the dirty side, he (Mark) could brake later as he had clean tyres, and would own the corner. NOt retarded at all, rather clever and cunning in fact.

Yah, and how did that work out for him....

Looked real clever from Vettel's onboard when you can see the Mclerans racing off into the distance, and Webber is off track with Vettel...

The retarded part came in as only a retard would race his team-mate in such a fashion...

[SGWilko]

Yah, and how did that work out for him....

Looked real clever from Vettel's onboard when you can see the Mclerans racing off into the distance, and Webber is off track with Vettel...

The retarded part came in as only a retard would race his team-mate in such a fashion...

Only because Vettel forgot how to complete a pass.

[PSfan]

Funnee!

Why did Vettel want past according to the team? Beause he/they were scared Lewis would get by....

How would that affect Webber in fuel save mode?

If Vettel had saved fuel, he should have continued to do so while holding back Lewis, if Lewis made a pass, Seb had the fuel to turn up the wick to defend......

As far as I'm concerned, only time Max made sense was when he quit....






.....finally.

And had Hamilton got the double and got past Webber at the same time, then what? Does it make sense to have your faster driver held up and put in a position where he could be passed, when he could be sprinting out a workable lead incase rain where to come and cars would all pit en-mass, which never works out for the lead cars, specially the red bulls.