Turkish Grand Prix

[ioan]

What? That Webber saw Vettel moving across and chose not to avoid Vettel?

Exactly. But do you still expect that they will get it?

[ioan]

I think it was Vettel's fault, he turned in too early for the corner, as if he din't see webber not giving up the position, his car was clearly not as fast as he thought he had cleared webber to turn in so quickly, and Mark din't have time to react.

Mark has a habit of not leaving place when he is already overtaken. This kind of things happen when you are traveling 300 kmh and the distance between cars is less than 10 inches because someone never accepts he lost the place.

[ioan]

they were into the approach of the corner, requiring the move to the right, before the spot of the accident.

Right, they both needed to move to the right when entering the braking zone, for two reasons:
1. To give each other space for heavy braking when a car is on the limit of stability
2. To make the corner given the speed they both carried.

But hey don't hold your breath on this one, the real racing situation and perspective means nothing, only bias and hard feelings are taken into account. Who cares? After all the guy in front was Vettel and even though he was trying to get the right trajectory for the corner, Webber has the right to behave like a brick wall and disregard Chapter IV from the FIA Code of driving on circuits.

[christophulus]

Ted Kravitz is suggesting that Vettel may have turned up his engine, or Mark may have turned his engine down, and reporting that when questioned about it Mark said "hmmm, you should dig deeper".

Curiouser and curiouser. :erm:

Might have some truth to it:

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/05/30/intrigue-at-red-bull-racing/

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/05/30/how-vettel-and-webber-got-on-a-collision-course-turkish-gp-team-by-team/ - lap chart showing Vettel suddenly found a couple of tenths the laps before the crash

[Dave B]

Just finished reading that Joe Saward article, it certainly backs up what Theodore was suggesting. :\

[ioan]

Here's what Horner had to say:


Horner emphasised that Red Bull allowed the drivers to race each other - provided they did so fairly.

"What we always ask is that the drivers give each other room," he said. "Today neither yielded, and the result was the team losing a lot of points, Mark losing a lots of points and Sebastian losing a lot of points - the net result is everybody loses.

"We saw today with Jenson [Button] and Lewis [Hamilton], they raced each other and they gave each other space, and that's what we ask."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84031

Even though he doesn't say it directly it implies that in the team's opinion Webber didn't play fair towards his team mate, which will not help the Australian too much in the future with the team.

[Garry Walker]

You're wrong there.
Both Gary and F1boat explicitly acknowledged that they hate him, for petty reasons ofcourse, but that's another story.

Whereas you have never ever said a bad word about him, no incident is ever his fault, never. In fact, I don`t think you have ever said anything remotely critical of him. Always someone elses fault. Wunderkid is always in the right.

BTW: BBC feed said that Webber was told to tune down his engine and Vettel was told the opposite. Red Bull showing preference for "wunderkid."

[Garry Walker]

Here's what Horner had to say:


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84031

Even though he doesn't say it directly it implies that in the team's opinion Webber didn't play fair towards his team mate, which will not help the Australian too much in the future with the team.
You missed the part where he said "NEITHER YIELDED."

Your comments in any situation when it concerns Vettel are a complete joke and a matter for laughter.

[ioan]

Might have some truth to it:

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/05/30/intrigue-at-red-bull-racing/

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/05/30/how-vettel-and-webber-got-on-a-collision-course-turkish-gp-team-by-team/ - lap chart showing Vettel suddenly found a couple of tenths the laps before the crash

Vettel got gradually close to Webber and in the last couple laps he was able to use Webber's car's slipstream to catch him on the long 'straight' after turn 12.

This was evidenced also by Lewis not being able to reel Vettel in anymore even though earlier he was gaining immensely on that part of the track.

At least this is what I saw.

[Dave B]

Horner now appears to be siding with his Golden Boy :s



Just reinterviewed Christian Horner who now feels Webber pushed Vettel onto dirty side and says Webber slow as saving fuel!

[ioan]

You missed the part where he said "NEITHER YIELDED."

Your comments in any situation when it concerns Vettel are a complete joke and a matter for laughter.

That part was obvious to everyone who watched the race.

What is interesting is the part where he says that they expect them to leave much more place when in direct fight.

[Garry Walker]

Just finished reading that Joe Saward article, it certainly backs up what Theodore was suggesting. :\

Everyone in the paddock knows that Vettel is the golden boy of Red Bull. That Webber is beating him like this is hurting his value and is not going down well with some people in Red Bull. Their wunderkid investment is losing value.

[Garry Walker]

That part was obvious to everyone who watched the race.

What is interesting is the part where he says that they expect them to leave much more place when in direct fight.

Idiot was the one who didnt leave any room for Webber. He had more than enough room to make the corner himself, you agree with that, right? He had no reason to move to the right, other than trying to force Webber out, but he completely misjudged the distance between them and Webber had no time to react to the idiots move.

show some objectivity and take your head out of the idiots ass, it is embarrassing to see.

[ioan]

Horner now appears to be siding with his Golden Boy :s

Can't blame him.
Vettel was faster and was able to escape the McLaren's pressure on the back straight while Webber, at least this is what is reported, had to save fuel. Vettel overtaking Webber was their best chance to win the race.
Apparently Webber thought otherwise, IMO he should have thought twice as one race doesn't win you the championship but can lose him the team's backing.

[Dave B]

By the way, was this referred to the stewards at the time? I didn't see any caption to that effect or hear it mentioned in commentary. Have they now missed their window to investigate this should they so wish?

[Garry Walker]

That part was obvious to everyone who watched the race.

What is interesting is the part where he says that they expect them to leave much more place when in direct fight.

Oh and obvious to everyone? you will of course love it then that the vast majority of posters at Autosport.com agree that it was idiots fault, not Webbers fault.
You and a few other lunatic fans of idiot are the only ones thinking it was somehow Webbers fault.

[ioan]

Idiot was the one who didnt leave any room for Webber.

Webber had more than half the track at disposal. Cheers! :D

[ioan]

Oh and obvious to everyone?

Well, almost everyone now that I read your post.

[Daniel]

By the way, was this referred to the stewards at the time? I didn't see any caption to that effect or hear it mentioned in commentary. Have they now missed their window to investigate this should they so wish?
Probably some stupid rule that if the team doesn't protest, then two team mates can take each other out and it's all good :p

[ioan]

By the way, was this referred to the stewards at the time? I didn't see any caption to that effect or hear it mentioned in commentary. Have they now missed their window to investigate this should they so wish?

If it was MS they would have crucified him by now.
No wait, they can't do that either in Turkey! :p :

[F1boat]

Everyone in the paddock knows that Vettel is the golden boy of Red Bull. That Webber is beating him like this is hurting his value and is not going down well with some people in Red Bull. Their wunderkid investment is losing value.

I think that Vettel should be penalized for the crash and RBR should be investigated for illegal team orders and to be supervised by the FIA as McLaren in the end of 2007.
From me, I am not gonna buy their drink anymore, even if I liked it.

[Dave B]

Webber had more than half the track at disposal. Cheers! :D
And Vettel had a car's width plus a few inches. Not much room, I'll grant you, but enough. Webber was harsh but fair, and did not move over at any point once Seb started to come along side him. Watch the onboards.

[Garry Walker]

Webber had more than half the track at disposal. Cheers! :D

You havent adressed any of the points I raised, because you have no answer.

You have been exposed and your fanboyism for Vettel reminds me of that that pre-teen girls have for justin bieber. Congrats.

[ioan]

Everyone in the paddock knows that Vettel is the golden boy of Red Bull.

That is however balanced by you and F1boat hating him with so much ardor! :p

[ioan]

You havent adressed any of the points I raised, because you have no answer.

I believe that none of your trolling points are worth losing my time.


You have been exposed and your fanboyism for Vettel reminds me of that that pre-teen girls have for justin bieber. Congrats.

Never heard about your mate justin, however it looks like you went through the above described situation sometime.

[Garry Walker]

Well, almost everyone now that I read your post.

Autosport.com forum poll

Vettel guilty - 73,36%
Webber guilty - 9,58%

:rotflmao:

[Azumanga Davo]

I agree with Ioan here. Sure Vettel moved across a little but Webber had been passed and needed to use his brain and relinquish position. 60:40 blame with Webber mostly at fault.

When was the last time I agreed with both of you? This must surely be a momentous occasion?

Both drivers were equal morons, Flipper should shoulder the blame also.

[Dave B]

You have been exposed and your fanboyism for Vettel reminds me of that that pre-teen girls have for justin bieber. Congrats.


That is however balanced by you and F1boat hating him with so much ardor! :p
Oh joy, it's getting personal. Save pino the work, boys, and keep it civil.

[Garry Walker]

That is however balanced by you and F1boat hating him with so much ardor! :p

I dont really hate so much Vettel, but rather his stupid fanboys.
I remember how hard for the brain it was so read through the posts of some crazy montoya fanboys posts, but vettel fans are even worse.

[ioan]

I think that Vettel should be penalized for the crash and RBR should be investigated for illegal team orders and to be supervised by the FIA as McLaren in the end of 2007.
From me, I am not gonna buy their drink anymore, even if I liked it.

Poor RedBull will now go into bankruptcy, for sure.
And those nasty stewards who didn't decide to penalize Vettel should all be punished with a whip. Or maybe not now that Max has left the building.

[ioan]

I dont really hate so much Vettel, but rather his stupid fanboys.

You can hate him a little and us/me a lot, be my guest, it doesn't bother me at all and we live in a free world, luckily.

[ioan]

Oh joy, it's getting personal. Save pino the work, boys, and keep it civil.

C'mon Dave, they both expressed their feeling several times, nothing for them to be ashamed of.

[Garry Walker]

I believe that none of your trolling points are worth losing my time.
Yeah, the vast majority of people agree with my take on the incident and I am trolling.
I guess everyone who doesnt worship vettel is a troll.



Never heard about your mate justin.

Oh I am sure you have :D

[Dave B]

It's on:

@NobleF1 Mark Webber was ordered to turn his engine down on the lap that Sebastian Vettel tried the move on him. Story on autosport.com soon

[ioan]

Autosport.com forum poll

Vettel guilty - 73,36%
Webber guilty - 9,58%

:rotflmao:

Are they some kind of specialist armchair experts we should all bow to or just another Anglo-centric internet forum?
Since when does an internet board poll count as an argument in a racing accident?

[ioan]

Oh I am sure you have :D

I'll have to deeply disappoint you again. I never did hear about the person you keep mentioning.

[ioan]

It's on:

@NobleF1 Mark Webber was ordered to turn his engine down on the lap that Sebastian Vettel tried the move on him. Story on autosport.com soon

That's very interesting, if true, and I don't say it isn't.
What if Mark played games because he had to give way? The team won't be happy.

[Garry Walker]

Are they some kind of specialist armchair experts we should all bow to or just another Anglo-centric internet forum?
Since when does an internet board poll count as an argument in a racing accident?

Vettel has far more fans than Webber, even on that forum.

This doesnt constitute a fact, but when so many people agree with one take on things, it should make one think.

[Garry Walker]

That's very interesting, if true, and I don't say it isn't.
What if Mark played games because he had to give way? The team won't be happy.

Team orders are banned.

[Daniel]

That's very interesting, if true, and I don't say it isn't.
What if Mark played games because he had to give way? The team won't be happy.
An interesting angle...... if that was the case (of course no one knows if it is) the team wouldn't be happy at all.

[ioan]

And Vettel had a car's width plus a few inches. Not much room, I'll grant you, but enough. Webber was harsh but fair, and did not move over at any point once Seb started to come along side him. Watch the onboards.

I watched the stuff too often already, and stand by the opinion that the driver in front can slightly change the direction to try to take a better line for the corner.
Vettel didn't swerve into Webber, he moved maybe 15 inches to the right and Webber just sit there and waited for the crash. He knew full well that if they both stayed so close they will most probably make contact and crash under braking, still he didn't budge. Vettel didn't even realistically have the chance to brake on the dirty part of the track without risking to end up all over the place and hitting Webber's car anyway.
I still don't understand what he was thinking, how did he reason that a crash was a better outcome than getting 2nd place?!

Having Horner say that they expect the drivers to give more place when racing each other is a nail in the coffin for Webber.

[Daniel]

Having Horner say that they expect the drivers to give more place when racing each other is a nail in the coffin for Webber.

Let's not pretend to know EXACTLY what someone is thinking and use that to interpret what they say Ioan ;)

[ioan]

Team orders are banned.

As far as it's possible to police them, which isn't a lot, for example: 'you need to save fuel'.

[fandango]

Webber definitely straightened his line when he saw Vettel make his move. But if people think he should or could have reacted to Vettel moving across, then surely it also follows that Vettel had the same opportunity to react to Webber holding the straight line.

If Vettel had waited before moving across he could have made it stick by having the inside line at the next corner. Webber was perhaps too hard, but I think it was Vettel who caused the contact.

And anyway, I'm not sure Webber moving across would have avoided contact.

[TMorel]

I wonder if Vettel was ordered to too or just Mark, and if not, had than been made clear to Mark ?

I got the feeling from one of the interviews that Lewis wasn't sure that Jenson had turned his down as much either hence getting his chance to catch and ovetake.

[ioan]

Let's not pretend to know EXACTLY what someone is thinking and use that to interpret what they say Ioan ;)

I don't know exactly, but I only saw one driver not giving enough room today to his team mate.
This and your proof on the RedBull packaging indicated that all is not rosy for a certain driver who loves to race too close.

[Robinho]

missed a doozy of a fight in here haven't i.

for what its worth i'd say it was more Vettel's fault, and i do like the kid, but he had no reason so drift across the track when so close to anyone, let alone his team mate. he had made most of the pass, just needed to execute it by stopping the car for the corner and he was off in the lead.

Sure Webber could have given more room, but he didn't have to, he was fighting for the lead and fought fair, his steering angle whilst alongside Vettel never deviated, Vettels did and he lost himself the race as a result.

thats before the strange orders coming from Red Bull as well, which hopefully we'll here more about.

for what its worth i do believe the team about the roll bar linkage in qually, and they did change the componenents on both cars ahead of the race.

[Bagwan]

Ah , nothing like a good controversy to stir it up around here .

Mark's feeling like Seb's the favourite son .
Seb , the favourite son was feeling the heat from his winning team-mate , and not happy being second , needed to show the Aussie his tail-pipe .

He went in , and had he kept it straight , would have been squeezed right to the curb , never a good feeling , so pushed out .
Mark squeezed him in , to the limit , but not over , and wouldn't react to the push out .


This situation has good arguments for both sides , and perhaps will have to be put down as a draw .

Mark , while not moving over , had lost the inside line , with fully a wheel behind .
In my opinion , by that time , he would have been better to try to get behind Sebastian , to get the inside line out , as it should have been obvious that , with such a compromised apex and higher speed , Sebastian would go wide out .
He held his line and was hit .

Sebastian went in , knowing his line would be compromised , and seemingly expected Webber to relent .
This was a reasonable thing to expect , but not what occurred .

With Webber still beside , he made the "deliberate , but instinctual" move to the right , to try to compromise Webber's turn-in behind .
Webber , it seems , was perfectly happy to run around the outside .



You've got two drivers who had made an assumption about each other .
Both compromised each other's races , assuming they would not compromise each other's races .

[ioan]

Webber definitely straightened his line when he saw Vettel make his move. But if people think he should or could have reacted to Vettel moving across, then surely it also follows that Vettel had the same opportunity to react to Webber holding the straight line.

It takes two to tango. Meaning that each and every overtaking maneuver would finish with an accident if the overtaken driver would not yield when he has obviously lost the position.


If Vettel had waited before moving across he could have made it stick by having the inside line at the next corner. Webber was perhaps too hard, but I think it was Vettel who caused the contact.

They were going to have to brake for the turn in from that moment and it was impossible to do it on the dirty side without getting out of shape. vettel had no room for maneuver and no time to wait anymore either.



And anyway, I'm not sure Webber moving across would have avoided contact.

How's that?

[ioan]

Ah , nothing like a good controversy to stir it up around here .

Mark's feeling like Seb's the favourite son .
Seb , the favourite son was feeling the heat from his winning team-mate , and not happy being second , needed to show the Aussie his tail-pipe .

He went in , and had he kept it straight , would have been squeezed right to the curb , never a good feeling , so pushed out .
Mark squeezed him in , to the limit , but not over , and wouldn't react to the push out .


This situation has good arguments for both sides , and perhaps will have to be put down as a draw .

Mark , while not moving over , had lost the inside line , with fully a wheel behind .
In my opinion , by that time , he would have been better to try to get behind Sebastian , to get the inside line out , as it should have been obvious that , with such a compromised apex and higher speed , Sebastian would go wide out .
He held his line and was hit .

Sebastian went in , knowing his line would be compromised , and seemingly expected Webber to relent .
This was a reasonable thing to expect , but not what occurred .

With Webber still beside , he made the "deliberate , but instinctual" move to the right , to try to compromise Webber's turn-in behind .
Webber , it seems , was perfectly happy to run around the outside .



You've got two drivers who had made an assumption about each other .
Both compromised each other's races , assuming they would not compromise each other's races .

Looks exactly like what happened. That's why Webber probably was telling Lewis that it was 50-50 blame.

The problem is that the team lost a huge amount of points because of this and they were expecting Webber to give more place.

[Azumanga Davo]

You should have a listen to the Channel Ten pundits. Oh boy, no shock, they all think Mark was holier than the bloomin' Pope.

I don't mind Mark, but when it comes to the blame game, he doesn't take his fair share of flak.

[Dave B]

81% of voters on James Allen's site (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/05/hamilton-wins-turkish-gp-as-civil-war-breaks-out-at-red-bull/)blame Vettel.

Sure it'll get dismissed as "anglocentric", but I'm yet to see any of Vettel's supporters posting links to German polls giving him the blame.

[ioan]

for what its worth i'd say it was more Vettel's fault, and i do like the kid, but he had no reason so drift across the track when so close to anyone...

He had a good reason, he needed a cleaner piece of track to brake for the corner and, as the team, he expected his team mate to give place, we all know the rest of it.

[Dave B]

Looks exactly like what happened. That's why Webber probably was telling Lewis that it was 50-50 blame.

You can't go round putting words into people's mouths like that, old bean. Have any of Webber's comments thus far pointed at that?

[ioan]

81% of voters on James Allen's site (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/05/hamilton-wins-turkish-gp-as-civil-war-breaks-out-at-red-bull/)blame Vettel.

Sure it'll get dismissed as "anglocentric", but I'm yet to see any of Vettel's supporters posting links to German polls giving him the blame.

That's just because Vettel's supporters do not believe that forum polls hold any weight in this situation.

[ioan]

You can't go round putting words into people's mouths like that, old bean. Have any of Webber's comments thus far pointed at that?

He said that after the weighing at the end of the race, while they were waiting to go to the podium, it was live on TV over here.

[Dave B]

That's just because Vettel's supporters do not believe that forum polls hold any weight in this situation.
That's convenient for them, wouldn't you say? :laugh:

[Daniel]

That's convenient for them, wouldn't you say? :laugh:
To be fair Dave, most of us on here are English speakers, where is most of the English speaking F1 journalism based? ;)

[Dave B]

To be fair Dave, most of us on here are English speakers, where is most of the English speaking F1 journalism based? ;)
So what you're saying is that foreigners also use English sites? Wouldn't that rather undermine the argument that the polls are unreliable as they're too "anglocentric"? :p

[christophulus]

Mark Webber had to turn his engine down on the lap that Sebastian Vettel tried to pull a move on him for the lead, Red Bull Racing has confirmed, but the team insists that was still no excuse for its drivers colliding.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84050

[TMorel]

Where do you find the lap/sector times online?
If Mark *was* told to conserve fuel, what sort of times was he doing after he'd pitted for a new nose as he didnt seem to be hanging around, which doesnt make sense considering the alleged request to turn down the engine and Seb to turn his up.

[Dave B]

Where do you find the lap/sector times online?
If Mark *was* told to conserve fuel, what sort of times was he doing after he'd pitted for a new nose as he didnt seem to be hanging around, which doesnt make sense considering the alleged request to turn down the engine and Seb to turn his up.
Didn't the team also do a routine tyre change while replacing his nose? Fresh rubber would help his times, as evidenced by Petrov setting the fastest lap of the entire race on the new tyres forced on him by Alonso's move.

[Dave B]

Here's a snippet from the press conference (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84051)which makes Webber's position pretty clear:

Q. (Livio Oricchio – O Estado de Sao Paulo) Mark, was your strategy to keep Vettel inside, not to make him brake before and you keep your position, even if you brake late, he would go straight?

MW: It wasn't my plan to get him on the inside but he got there and I thought OK, I would just stay in the middle, as straight as I can, to make his line as tight as possible into the next corner obviously. And once we got to the braking point, he was obviously in a very strong position, but before we got there he came across to the right and I couldn't react fast enough, because I wasn't at all expecting that at that point, and that's why it happened so fast and there was contact. Of course in Seb's car, it obviously feels very bad for him that I've turned left into him, but I'm pretty confident that there was some drift from his way and then it was a f---ing disaster. So you have the line.

[Daniel]

So what you're saying is that foreigners also use English sites? Wouldn't that rather undermine the argument that the polls are unreliable as they're too "anglocentric"? :p

Just remember that's not an official poll, just an autosport forum one. So for instance I can't vote on it. Who knows whether there is a smaller or larger percentage of non-brits posting on the autosport forums than read the website.

[ioan]

That's convenient for them, wouldn't you say? :laugh:

Last time a Finish forum member posted a link to some news in Finish he was laughed of as not credible and other such stuff and asked for an English source.

I for one really don't care what language is, as I speak 5 different languages fluently, still I maintain that forum polls are useless in an argument.

[fandango]

It takes two to tango. Meaning that each and every overtaking maneuver would finish with an accident if the overtaken driver would not yield when he has obviously lost the position.



They were going to have to brake for the turn in from that moment and it was impossible to do it on the dirty side without getting out of shape. vettel had no room for maneuver and no time to wait anymore either.



How's that?


Because I think Vettel moved over too fast. It's simple. Webber didn't have time to react. And if he did, then Vettel also had time to react to Webber's defensive straight line position.

Either way, Vettel got what he deserved.

[christophulus]

There's another poll here that's accessible to everyone. Not official, obviously, but should give a reasonable cross-section of the internet. It shows 72% blame Vettel.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/05/30/webber-and-vettel-lose-one-two-finish-for-red-bull-after-collision/

[ioan]

Here's a snippet from the press conference (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84051)which makes Webber's position pretty clear:

Q. (Livio Oricchio – O Estado de Sao Paulo) Mark, was your strategy to keep Vettel inside, not to make him brake before and you keep your position, even if you brake late, he would go straight?

MW: It wasn't my plan to get him on the inside but he got there and I thought OK, I would just stay in the middle, as straight as I can, to make his line as tight as possible into the next corner obviously. And once we got to the braking point, he was obviously in a very strong position, but before we got there he came across to the right and I couldn't react fast enough, because I wasn't at all expecting that at that point, and that's why it happened so fast and there was contact. Of course in Seb's car, it obviously feels very bad for him that I've turned left into him, but I'm pretty confident that there was some drift from his way and then it was a f---ing disaster. So you have the line.

A bit of a contradiction there.
Also he didn't hold the middle of the track he left one half empty and he was on the same half with Seb.

[ioan]

There's another poll here that's accessible to everyone. Not official, obviously, but should give a reasonable cross-section of the internet. It shows 72% blame Vettel.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/05/30/webber-and-vettel-lose-one-two-finish-for-red-bull-after-collision/

.co.uk

[Dave B]

A bit of a contradiction there.
Also he didn't hold the middle of the track he left one half empty and he was on the same half with Seb.
I genuinely don't see the contradiction in the part you've bolded. And I'm afraid I don't understand the point you're trying to make in your second sentence.

[Dave B]

The "spot the idiot" competition has a winner:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47957000/jpg/_47957787_vettelfingerafp466.jpg

[fandango]

A bit of a contradiction there.
Also he didn't hold the middle of the track he left one half empty and he was on the same half with Seb.

It's not really a contradiction. It's just a language point, I think. What Webber should have said was "once we got to the breaking point, he obviously would have been in a very strong position..."

Native English speakers don't always use the third conditional correctly anymore...

[ioan]

I genuinely don't see the contradiction in the part you've bolded. And I'm afraid I don't understand the point you're trying to make in your second sentence.

He says that vettel was in a better position when they got to the braking point and then points it out that they touched already before getting there. IMO it was the other way around, the crash occured after the braking point for that turn.

My 2nd sentence points out that he is not true to the facts, he says:


It wasn't my plan to get him on the inside but he got there and I thought OK, I would just stay in the middle,...

We all saw that we wasn't in the middle of the track, instead he was on the same half with Vettel.

That's 2 inadvertence in one of his comments about the accident.

[ioan]

It's not really a contradiction. It's just a language point, I think. What Webber should have said was "once we got to the breaking point, he obviously would have been in a very strong position..."

Native English speakers don't always use the third conditional correctly anymore...

Thanks, that might be an explanation for his strange comment.
I am not really good at incorrect use of the third conditional. ;)

[steveaki13]

I really enjoyed the race, it was great to see the Mclaren's battling hard for the lead. Shame the team had to slow them down, whether to save fuel, or just to stop them doing a Red Bull.

I liked Schumacher saying the weather info he was given mean't nothing to him. :p

Also in the press conf, while Jenson was speaking have a look at Lewis and Mark talking about the collision and see Webber's hand gestures. :p :

[Dave B]

I liked Schumacher saying the weather info he was given mean't nothing to him. :p



Yeah I laughed about that, when I started thinking back to Oz when we had all the comparisons between drivers and making their own decisions (i.e Jenson and Lewis). To hear an old hand like Schuey admitting he had no idea what tyres he preferred, it really put it into perspective how petty this forum got at the beginning of the season.. :p :)
In fairness to Schuey, being told "3mm of rain" was pretty useless information unless you also knew over how long. 3mm over the course of an hour isn't much to be concerned about, but if it all falls in 5 minutes you might need to rethink your slicks.

[TMorel]

Oh well, looks like Marks goose is cooked :( as it was team orders he let Seb thru. I wonder how Mark will keep his enthusiasm up for after this - I don't see it ending well if it happens again.

http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2010/5/10855.html

[Dave B]

Oh well, looks like Marks goose is cooked :( as it was team orders he let Seb thru. I wonder how Mark will keep his enthusiasm up for after this - I don't see it ending well if it happens again.

http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2010/5/10855.html
The thing about team orders is that it's always wise to let both drivers in on the script. By keeping Mark out of the loop, Red Bull ensured that he'd react like any proper racer and make Vettel work for his overtake.

[RJL25]

The thing about team orders is that it's always wise to let both drivers in on the script. By keeping Mark out of the loop, Red Bull ensured that he'd react like any proper racer and make Vettel work for his overtake.

exactly, the team may have told Vettel that Webber has turned his engine down and you haven't so push hard, but if they didn't tell Webber that how was he supposed to know? How was he supposed to know that he was supposed to let Vettel through if no one had told him?

It's almost as if "geez these guys are even in the world championship so if we tell Mark that he has to let Vettel through then he is going to get angry, so lets just not tell him and hope he works it out!"

As if Webber, or ANY OTHER F1 driver is going to just say "oh why after you..." for the lead of the world championship! Ofcourse he was going to defend his position given that the team had given him no instruction that he shouldn't, Webber would get pissed off, but he is a professional and if told to move over he would have moved over, but he wasn't told so he raced, Vettel thought he wouldn't race because the team told him that he was to pass and reasonably excpected that the same message went to Webber, so he moved over on Mark expecting that he would get out of the way, but no such message got to Mark so he was just like "eh? WTF you doing son?" and held his line, not his fault, the teams!

[airshifter]

It's a shame that we didn't see a harder rain. After the Webber/Vettel move, the Hamilton/Button dice, and Alonso pushing Petrov it could have really spiced things up even more.

Was I the only one surprised to see Mark go to the hard tires when he went in for his nose change? With so few laps I was sure that they would put him on softs. Even with little chance of catching anyone up, he would have been in better shape if the rain picked up, or if Button or Hamilton had issues.



As for the collision, IMHO Vettel is an absolute idiot. From every shot I've seen it's clear that he had room yet turned into Mark. Vettel got what he deserved, and I'm glad Mark at least salvaged his race the best he could.

[markabilly]

Q: Red Bull team principal Christian Horner said he didn’t believe it was Vettel’s fault. Is this the official opinion of the team?
HM: Well, in the situation Sebastian was in, he had no other choice than to act the way he did.

Q: How will the team respond?
HM: We will carefully analyse the situation and sit down with all involved to have a serious word about what happened and how to handle situations like that in the future.

Q: Will you change something in the future to avoid such an incident happening again?
HM: Well, first of all we always told them that it is a strict no-go to go to the wall with each other. Whatever happens they always have to give room to the other. I hope that all the people involved will think a bit more in the future before acting.

Q: That suggests that one of the two should have given way to the other…
HM: Yes.

Q: And you will discuss with them who that should have been …
HM: Yes.

Q: Is it true that the team gave instructions to Mark Webber’s race engineer to let Sebastian Vettel pass because otherwise Lewis (Hamilton)would be able to overtake?
HM: That is not correct, because that would mean a team order. We informed Mark about the situation and it is for the driver to decide. The fact is that if Sebastian hadn’t passed he would have been overtaken by Hamilton.


so say red bull

[RJL25]

It's interesting they say that if they didn't let Vettel through he would have been overtaken by Hamilton, but then if that was the case if Vettel did go through would that mean Mark would have been overtaken by hamilton? And why would that be ok but it not be ok if Vettel was overtaken?

Mark had worked hard all race to hold the lead, why should he all of a sudden yield to his team mate just because his team mate might get overtaken otherwise?

It seems the team where quite happy for Webber to be overtaken and slide back to fourth behind the two mclarens provided that Vettel won the race and lead the world championship.

The team has picked their driver, and I think Webber would be now instructing his management team to no longer persue a contract with RBR and get back in contact with Ferrari...

[markabilly]

I think Webber would be now instructing his management team to no longer persue a contract with RBR and get back in contact with Ferrari...
:laugh: :rotflmao: :grenade:



Probably will be replacing Alonso, no doubt..................

[RJL25]

markabilly your being a fanboy, your supporting your driver and thats great, but your not being objective.

When they made contact, VETTEL'S WHEEL WAS TURNING RIGHT, WEBBER'S WHEEL WAS STRAIGHT!

Vettel hit Webber, not the other way around.

[markabilly]

funny but seems red bull has a different view....

[RJL25]

actually they seem to have differing views, Marko is saying they told Webber about the "situation" but then Horner is saying that webbers engineer failed to convey the message to webber.

Maybe you should dig a little deeper rather then simply finding some quotes that suits your argument.

Look if it makes you feel any better I'll say its all webbers fault and sebastien is a saint, but I hope you realise that outside of the Helmut Marko and Vettel fans, everyone else including former F1 drivers coulthard and Brundell as well as just about all F1 journo's are saying its vettels fault, not marks.

[fandango]

"The fact is that if Sebastian hadn’t passed he would have been overtaken by Hamilton."

Eh, that is not a fact. That is a supposition.

[Daniel]

"The fact is that if Sebastian hadn’t passed he would have been overtaken by Hamilton."

Eh, that is not a fact. That is a supposition.
Quite true :p

He'd do quite well as a forum member here :D

[ioan]

markabilly your being a fanboy, your supporting your driver and thats great, but your not being objective.

When they made contact, VETTEL'S WHEEL WAS TURNING RIGHT, WEBBER'S WHEEL WAS STRAIGHT!

Vettel hit Webber, not the other way around.

You are not being objective either, ehh?

[ioan]

Quite true :p

He'd do quite well as a forum member here :D

He would have some insider knowledge and first hand knowledge of top level racing we don't have, and I don't think that we need that here. :p

[RJL25]

I'm being objective, Vettel's car moved into and made contact with Webbers car, those are the facts!

I find it unbelievable how Vettel fans are so keen to ignore the very basic facts of the situation!

They where on a straight, they where NOT in the braking zone yet, Webber was driving in a straight line, Webber was ALREADY on that side of the road BEFORE Vettel pulled along side, so Webber did not move over on Vettel, he was already there, Vettel turned left! Thats it!

[ioan]

I'm being objective, Vettel's car moved into and made contact with Webbers car, those are the facts!

And why oh why did Webber feel the need to run his team mate on that stripe of tarmac when he had at least 8 meters width of clean track on his right?
What did he think that will happen when they start braking hard on the dirty track, a small bump? It turned out to be a bigger bump and both lost a lot out of it.
Vettel lost everything and Webber lost 7 points plus his team's support, most probably for good. What a great move that was.



I find it unbelievable how Vettel fans are so keen to ignore the very basic facts of the situation!

What about the Webber fans? They pat themselves on the back claiming objectivity!

[BeansBeansBeans]

If they weren't team-mates, I don't think anyone would be blaming Webber. This suggests that people think team-mates should treat each other differently than they would any other opponent.

Discuss.

[F1boat]

If they weren't team-mates, I don't think anyone would be blaming Webber. This suggests that people think team-mates should treat each other differently than they would any other opponent.

Discuss.

Yes, some people think that Vettel is the new Schumy and Webbo should be the new Rubens. Hopefully won't happen, despite the efforts of Marko and other individuals in the RBR camp.

[truefan72]

after the benefit of watching the race again and the incident again,. I have to now revise my opinion slightly and say that the blame for the mess goes squarely on vettel. Also I am not sure about what Horner and RBR are doing with Webber, since clearly he has the measure of vettel and the rest of the field right now. I have never liked Christin Horner and if it is true that they tried to compromise Webber's race for the benefit of Vettel then my sympathies and support are now going to Webber ( a driver that I actually am luke warm about)

Webber got the pole and was leading the race and is tied for the WDC lead and won the last 2 races. If anything they should have told Vettel to hold station and bring home the 1-2 then live to fight another day with the points in the bag. To me the weakest link of the whole team is Horner, who clearly has no idea how to manage a top team and drivers

[ioan]

Yes, some people think that Vettel is the new Schumy and Webbo should be the new Rubens. Hopefully won't happen, despite the efforts of Marko and other individuals in the RBR camp.

Whatever Red Bull decides to do it will happen no matter what Webber and his fans wish for.

[Big Ben]

IMO Webber's attitude was something like this... just try it and I'll show you that wall. And that thing with I ve been taken by surprise and didn't have time to react... that was a little bs... you want to see him coming from a mile away but you leave him only a few inches. It was all his fault that Vettel was that close to him. However I believe they share the responsibility. I suspect Webber though that he expected it to go that way and was fine with it. Just an opinion.

[RJL25]

So basically the argument here by the Vettel fans is that Webber isn't allowed to run Vettel to the inside of the track in an attempt to defend his position and therefore Vettel has every right to just turn into him and push Webber out of the way and if Webber dares to hold his line then he is the one totally 100% at fault.

what a load of sh*t!

Ioan - Watch the bloody footage again, Webber didn't run Vettel to the edge of the track, he moved to the extreem right of the track while Vettel was still in the draft, it was Vettel who then pulled out of the draft and ducked into the small gap between Webber and the grass, Vettel could have easily gone to the outside which is what Webber was trying to get him to do, instead it was Vettel who decided to jump into the tiny little gap and to Webber credit when he did it Webber held his line, he didn't continue to move over, but Vettel decided to turn right into Mark anyway, got what he deserved! Sorry, watch it again, OBJECTIVELY and you will see it for what it was, Vettel trying a risky move up the inside when he could have easily taken the outside line and given his speed advantage would have still been able to easily make the pass.

Mark wanted Vettel to take him on the outside so that Mark was still on the inside of the track so he could defend himself against Hamilton, he knew that if he was forced to the outside by Vettel then he would be very vulnerable to Hamilton. Vettel was made a poor judgement call in taking the inside line instead of the outside then made an even poorer judgement call by turning right

[Triumph]

I've just read through the whole thread and not one person (unless I missed it) has reported what Vettel said in the interview after the accident, which was:

'I was just trying to get the braking point and suddenly I lost the car.'

All these arguments accusing Vettel of deliberately turning into Webber, but not one mention of what Vettel said, which of course negates a significant amount of this thread's content.

If Vettel lost the car then that raises the possibility of all sorts potential causes, not one of which has been broached here.

[Dave B]

I raised exactly that point, can't remember if it was in this thread or the donkey one.

[i_max2k2]

I can relate this overtaking maneuver with Schumi overtaking Kimi in Brazil 2006, in that move, Kimi gave schumi a car's width, and schumi pulled it over, they were far from the racing line, and in a turn where they would have been otherwise on the extreme right and then braking and coming to the apex, that turn like Turkey's turn also comes after a long straight so before engaging the turn, the cars are at high speed just in this case, I feel as Vettel said, he lost the car on the dirty side, we cant blame it on Webber for holding his line. I'm glad that Webber now leads the WDC, and vettel's retirement was very much deserving of his mistake.

[SGWilko]

I've just read through the whole thread and not one person (unless I missed it) has reported what Vettel said in the interview after the accident, which was:

'I was just trying to get the braking point and suddenly I lost the car.'

All these arguments accusing Vettel of deliberately turning into Webber, but not one mention of what Vettel said, which of course negates a significant amount of this thread's content.

If Vettel lost the car then that raises the possibility of all sorts potential causes, not one of which has been broached here.

Were they near the braking point when vettel, ahem, 'lost it'?

For me, Vettel lost it on the walk back, doing 'nutty' gestures.

[Dzeidzei]

I've just read through the whole thread and not one person (unless I missed it) has reported what Vettel said in the interview after the accident, which was:

'I was just trying to get the braking point and suddenly I lost the car.'

All these arguments accusing Vettel of deliberately turning into Webber, but not one mention of what Vettel said, which of course negates a significant amount of this thread's content.

If Vettel lost the car then that raises the possibility of all sorts potential causes, not one of which has been broached here.

But it definitely makes Vettel the Donkey of the race. Right?

[Daniel]

Are people still going on about this? I thought we'd agreed to disagree? :confused:

[SGWilko]

Are people still going on about this? I thought we'd agreed to disagree? :confused:

Indeed, but it's such fun.

[Daniel]

Indeed, but it's such fun.
It's fun for the first few hours when you think that it's possible to convince someone to adopt your viewpoint. Then the pain of banging your head against the wall sets in and it's not so much fun :p

[SGWilko]

It's fun for the first few hours when you think that it's possible to convince someone to adopt your viewpoint. Then the pain of banging your head against the wall sets in and it's not so much fun :p

I see now where you are going wrong - I've installed an inflatable wall..... ;)

[fandango]

I've just read through the whole thread and not one person (unless I missed it) has reported what Vettel said in the interview after the accident, which was:

'I was just trying to get the braking point and suddenly I lost the car.'

All these arguments accusing Vettel of deliberately turning into Webber, but not one mention of what Vettel said, which of course negates a significant amount of this thread's content.

If Vettel lost the car then that raises the possibility of all sorts potential causes, not one of which has been broached here.

I think what Vettel is trying to say is that it was the impact which caused him to suddenly lose the car, not the other way round. It's a kind of "there I was, minding my own business, when suddenly..." comment. At least, that's how it looks to me.

[Valve Bounce]

I think what Vettel is trying to say is that it was the impact which caused him to suddenly lose the car, not the other way round. It's a kind of "there I was, minding my own business, when suddenly..." comment. At least, that's how it looks to me.

By his looney gestures after the race, he obviously believes that Mark Webber was at fault. This is clearly indicated in his remarks after the race. And with a strong opposing view from Webber, this could lead to disharmony and future clashes in races despite what Horner says here: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84060
"And although Red Bull's motorsport advisor Helmut Marko has blamed Webber for the incident, Horner has adopted a more balanced view – claiming both drivers have to share the blame."

BUT will either driver give way to the other in any future situation? That is the interesting question.

[Mysterious Rock]

I've just read through the whole thread and not one person (unless I missed it) has reported what Vettel said in the interview after the accident, which was:

'I was just trying to get the braking point and suddenly I lost the car.'

All these arguments accusing Vettel of deliberately turning into Webber, but not one mention of what Vettel said, which of course negates a significant amount of this thread's content.

If Vettel lost the car then that raises the possibility of all sorts potential causes, not one of which has been broached here.

If true, Vettel would have known this straight away, and stuck his hand up at Mark and then make signals indicating he was crazy afterwards, I think that was just a cover story, to try hide his mistake.

And the wheels have fallen off the RBR wagon!!!

[Valve Bounce]

If true, Vettel would have known this straight away, and stuck his hand up at Mark and then make signals indicating he was crazy afterwards, I think that was just a cover story, to try hide his mistake.

And the wheels have fallen off the RBR wagon!!!

Wouldn't it be funny if the two RBR drivers took each out on the first turn in Canada. :D :rotflmao:

[ShiftingGears]

Wouldn't it be funny if the two RBR drivers took each out on the first turn in Canada. :D :rotflmao:

I'd laugh... a considerable amount of time after me swearing and making hand gestures at the TV :D

[fandango]

What's amazing about all this to me is how badly the team have managed this. Helmut Marko said "Well, in the situation Sebastian was in, he had no other choice than to act the way he did."

Anyone can see that Vettel had choices, but not all of them guaranteed the pass. But whether you think it was Vettel's or Webber's fault, it's really bad teamwork for a manager to go mouthing off to the press like that. What possible good can it do?

[Valve Bounce]

Here's an interesting read if you have the time, and how pitpass's Chris Balfe sums it up.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=40999

More to the point, I think Webber's displeasure showed in Malaysia and in this race, he wasn't going to open the door for an easy kamikaze pass by Vettel again.

I just wonder how many here thought back to Malaysia immediately after the incident - I did. I am dying to ask the question: what would SchM have done if Vettel tried that same pass on him in the same situation yesterday. That's what I've been wondering since the incident.

[jens]

In any case was quite an interesting race. Reminds a bit of Belgium '08. Leaders are driving together all race, setting up an exciting climax before decisive moments, which also include drops of rain. Also there were quite a few battles through the field. At one time camera was showing the fight between leaders, then we had Williamses and Buemi, then the midfield with the likes of Petrov, Sutil, Kobayashi, etc.


Button/Hamilton save fuel = hold position?

Shades of Gilles/Pironi, Imola 1982 methinks.

This is exactly that came to my mind too after I heard about the circumstances after the race. Button decided that he wants to keep fighting on, but unlike Pironi was willing to yield after further messages from the pitwall. In any case, was a great and also intelligent battle. :)

[Hawkmoon]

I think this incident shows a little of what headspace Vettel is in right now. He's rattled by Webber's pace and the team seem to be trying to boost his morale and head off the inevitable pressure from the press. It hasn't worked and the crash is perhaps the result.

The comment's from Horner and Marko are somewhat ominous for Webber. Instead of simply saying their guys just ****ed up and getting past it as soon as possible they seem to be trying to put Vettel in a positive light, thereby casting a shadow over Webber. Combine that with this so-called "team order" with Webber having to turn down his engine and perhaps it's becoming clear to see what side of the bread Red Bull have got their butter.

[ShiftingGears]

I think this incident shows a little of what headspace Vettel is in right now. He's rattled by Webber's pace and the team seem to be trying to boost his morale and head off the inevitable pressure from the press. It hasn't worked and the crash is perhaps the result.

The comment's from Horner and Marko are somewhat ominous for Webber. Instead of simply saying their guys just ****ed up and getting past it as soon as possible they seem to be trying to put Vettel in a positive light, thereby casting a shadow over Webber. Combine that with this so-called "team order" with Webber having to turn down his engine and perhaps it's becoming clear to see what side of the bread Red Bull have got their butter.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts of the weekend.
I've never bought into the Vettel getting preferential treatment theory, but then I've found such comments by Marko and Horner suggestive, and then recently reading about Horner and Marko's reaction to Webber's first win last year....

You do have to wonder sometimes.

[fandango]

I think this incident shows a little of what headspace Vettel is in right now. He's rattled by Webber's pace........
.....The comment's from Horner and Marko are somewhat ominous for Webber. Instead of simply saying their guys just ****ed up and getting past it as soon as possible they seem to be trying to put Vettel in a positive light, thereby casting a shadow over Webber.....

I agree. At no time did I hear anyone from Red Bull at least giving Webber some credit for keeping a cool head, bringing the car home for a podium finish and maintaining his WDC lead.

[steveaki13]

More to the point, I think Webber's displeasure showed in Malaysia and in this race, he wasn't going to open the door for an easy kamikaze pass by Vettel again.

I just wonder how many here thought back to Malaysia immediately after the incident - I did. I am dying to ask the question: what would SchM have done if Vettel tried that same pass on him in the same situation yesterday. That's what I've been wondering since the incident.


No I had forgotten about that :D

I reckon Mark thought I can't win.
In Malaysia people critise or leaving a massive gap and giving in to easily and this time I get critised for being to hard and not yeilding more. :laugh:

[fandango]

Another passing (but not touching) thought: Surely if Vettel had a higher-revving engine it would have been more likely he could defend against the threat of Hamilton?

I mean, considering the justification for Vettel's move from the team, surely Webber would have been more at risk if Vettel had passed him from also being passed by Hamilton, so the best option would have been to tell Vettel to hold station?

All hypothetical, but RBR have work to do, it seems, on their strategy.

[Garry Walker]

Here's an interesting read if you have the time, and how pitpass's Chris Balfe sums it up.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=40999

More to the point, I think Webber's displeasure showed in Malaysia and in this race, he wasn't going to open the door for an easy kamikaze pass by Vettel again.

I just wonder how many here thought back to Malaysia immediately after the incident - I did. I am dying to ask the question: what would SchM have done if Vettel tried that same pass on him in the same situation yesterday. That's what I've been wondering since the incident.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwgLg8vRMQU Here is how you race wheel to wheel, not like the sissyboy idiocy that wunderkid pulled yesterday.
Ayrton Senna and Nigel Mansell were bigger men and drivers than a spoilt prick like vettel ever will be.

[airshifter]

Were they near the braking point when vettel, ahem, 'lost it'?

For me, Vettel lost it on the walk back, doing 'nutty' gestures.

The impact was before the first braking marker, and virtually nobody was braking that early. You can listen to the audio and confirm that nobody was off the gas yet either.

[Robinho]

He had a good reason, he needed a cleaner piece of track to brake for the corner and, as the team, he expected his team mate to give place, we all know the rest of it.

i don't buy it. His advantage was that he was slightly ahead, but not a car length. Webber was perfectly withing his rights to hold the line. Vettel may have wished to use the tarmac inside to brake on, but if there is a car there, whether slightly ahead or slightly behind, you can't use it.

i do think think it was very hard racing from webber, but he was leading and defending that lead. it was Vettel who deviated from his chosen line. there is no reason for the car being overtaken to back off or move over simply beacuse a car is alongside.

they both could have braked in a straight line, and had Vettel stopped the car before the apex he had the place. the jostling before the braking point was unecessary and got what it deserved.

Vettel chose to go up the inside and should have attempted to make the pass without dirving into the side of his teammate.

Alguesari was penalised for a similar manourvre in Spain when moving over before he had effected the pass on the lapped chandock, vettel had not completed the pass and the track was occupied.

as for the question, "what would Schumacher have done", he never would have left enough space for a whole car up the inside, although he got passed round the outside instead. in the RBR he would have defended as stoutly or harder than Webber did.

RBR clearly are thinking long term and are more intent on keeping Vettel sweet. risky strategy, they may only ever get one chance to win a title, this is it, make sure you do it now and then look to the future. savrificing now for the future is risky. it worked for Brawn (honda) but Ferrari are going nowhere at the moment after giving up on last year, BMW suffered the same a couple of years ago and RBR could do the same if they sacrifice their lead now to keep vettel happy for future years.

[Valve Bounce]

[quote="Robinho"]


as for the question, "what would Schumacher have done", he never would have left enough space for a whole car up the inside, although he got passed round the outside instead. in the RBR he would have defended as stoutly or harder than Webber did.

/QUOTE]

I can just imagine some fast guy like Vettel or Hamilton going up to SchM afterwards and saying: "You should have pulled over so that I could brake on the clean racing line".

Yeah, Right!! :rolleyes:

Like SchM would have pulled over to let a team mate pass or even brake on the clean line.

[airshifter]

as for the question, "what would Schumacher have done", he never would have left enough space for a whole car up the inside, although he got passed round the outside instead. in the RBR he would have defended as stoutly or harder than Webber did.

/QUOTE]

I can just imagine some fast guy like Vettel or Hamilton going up to SchM afterwards and saying: "You should have pulled over so that I could brake on the clean racing line".

Yeah, Right!! :rolleyes:

Like SchM would have pulled over to let a team mate pass or even brake on the clean line.


Come on Valve. MS would have moved right over, and waved his team mate, or any other driver right through to the clean line. History showed that he gave Mika the clean line on the grass at close to 200 mph a couple times. Any everyone knows the mow the grass around the circuit before a race!

I suspect that if it was any driver other than Vettel, Webber would have applied his allowed one move block, and closed the door. That would have left an option of only the grass or the brake pedal.




And on a lighter note from the weekend....

Did anyone catch where Jensons grid girl passed out, and Jensons father took her place on the grid? Perfect occasion for the pink shirt! :laugh:

[RJL25]

Some are asking what Schumi would have done, I'll tell you what Schumi would have done, he would have dispatched the self centred little twerp straight onto the grass and enjoyed every second of watching him have a big stack.

Thats nothing against MS, I think MS is great! But this is what MS is like, he is a no compromises sonofabitch who will quite happily tell you to go and have relations with yourself. Webber at least didn't do that and gave Seb room, but Seb has a history of not being able to control himself in the heat of battle, and he's done it again. End of story

[jens]

i do think think it was very hard racing from webber, but he was leading and defending that lead. it was Vettel who deviated from his chosen line. there is no reason for the car being overtaken to back off or move over simply beacuse a car is alongside.


Actually Webber could have had better racecraft too. By this I mean that he would have benefitted more by going to the ideal line before the corner to have a better exit and a chance of counterattack. Once you see that a driver is alongside you and is getting ahead for sure, it's already wise to start looking for ways, how to fight back. There was no benefit for Mark in keeping to as left as possible and as we saw, it also had a higher risk of collision. If we imagine that the accident wouldn't have happened and both of them had entered the corner via the inside line like that, Hamilton would have had a golden chance to attack both of them through the next corner sequences with the driving lines of both RBR drivers being compromised. It reminds me, how Rosberg pushed the same Webber almost to the pitwall at the start of the 2006 Malaysian Grand Prix and Alonso benefitted from that by passing both of them through the outside line. So you get the point.

But that was that - both drivers have had moments of clumsyness in the past and one may feel it was an accident in waiting. When Button and Hamilton were dicing, such worries weren't present. Either in the activity of passing or defending, both knew well, how they need to position the car to avoid crashing.

[Retro Formula 1]

Some are asking what Schumi would have done, I'll tell you what Schumi would have done, he would have dispatched the self centred little twerp straight onto the grass and enjoyed every second of watching him have a big stack.

Thats nothing against MS, I think MS is great! But this is what MS is like, he is a no compromises sonofabitch who will quite happily tell you to go and have relations with yourself. Webber at least didn't do that and gave Seb room, but Seb has a history of not being able to control himself in the heat of battle, and he's done it again. End of story

I can just imagine what would have been said if it was Hamilton chucking a risky pass up the inside and then crashing into Webber. Would the people defending Seb be quite so vocal in their support? ;)

I think it was great driving from Webber. He held his line and gave his team mate room but he knew Seb would have to brake earlier as he was on the dirty side thus ceeding the corner back to Mark. Why the f**k would Mark move off his line which he had every right to hold so his team mate could overtake him???

Have people here forgotten that these two are racing for the WDC or something? If Webber had of moved, those same detractors would be criticising him for being a walk-over.

[wedge]

That pretty much sums up my thoughts of the weekend.
I've never bought into the Vettel getting preferential treatment theory, but then I've found such comments by Marko and Horner suggestive, and then recently reading about Horner and Marko's reaction to Webber's first win last year....

You do have to wonder sometimes.

There's been lazy - or should I say crap journalism at the weekend.

Horner has been diplomatic by saying it was a team incident but because Brundle, Ant, Wurz et al said it was Sebs fault Horner responded Webbo played his part in it and now the headline writers have said otherwise ie. Mark's fault.

Horner I have no problems with, Marko possibly

[F1boat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwgLg8vRMQU Here is how you race wheel to wheel, not like the sissyboy idiocy that wunderkid pulled yesterday.
Ayrton Senna and Nigel Mansell were bigger men and drivers than a spoilt prick like vettel ever will be.

No argument there. ;)

[SGWilko]

From the Horses', sorry, Bulls' mouth.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84085

Common sense always prevails in the end.

[fandango]

Pity, really. It's a lot more fun here without too much common sense. :)

[UltimateDanGTR]

[quote=Garry Walker]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwgLg8vRMQU Here is how you race wheel to wheel, not like the sissyboy idiocy that wunderkid pulled yesterday.

wonderfully correct.


Ayrton Senna and Nigel Mansell were bigger men and drivers than a spoilt prick like vettel ever will be.[/quote:1nnnu0jm]

vettel spoilt? please explain.

and how can you call Mansell and Senna 'bigger men' at a time when Vettel is still so young that we dont know what he will mature to be in his later years of his career?

he made a mistake for sure, I blame him for the accident, but no need to slag him off like that IMO. Senna and Mansell made mistakes in their time also, and they're considered two of the greatest drivers the sport has ever seen.

[F1boat]

I have noticed that every time a young driver makes a mistake some people say, it's OK, he is young. First, this is a man (and not a boy, he is over 18 IMO), who has raced all his conscious life, 2nd, if every time he is excused he will REMAIN spoiled and will never grow. And BTW, Lewis Hamilton was bashed endlessly from media and fans, because of his attitude and in the end he has grown into a fine young man and excellent driver. Yes, he makes mistakes and sometimes speaks rubbish - but like every other driver. For me he has made huge progress since 2007.

[Roamy]

Webber is a tough SOB and if you can drive away from him - he will respect that - if you want to race him don't be gay!! He has enough money now he doesn't have to take any bullsh!t. He is a proven winner and well could be champion

[RJL25]

I just don't understand why so many people seem to think that webber should have not raced Vettel?

I mean Webber is going for a championship here and his cheif rival is Vettel, so why the hell shouldn't he race him? Why the hell should he just let him past and let him go? Bloody as if!

Helmut thinks he should have let Vettel past or otherwise Hamilton would have passed him, but for Webber thats what he wants!

[CaptainRaiden]

I 'm not fan of either driver, but I hope Webber kicks wunderkid's backside in this year's championship. Helmut Marko's views on the incident is disgusting in the very least.

I'm still in amazement how some people can actually see this as Webber's fault AT ALL! He simply held his line, which is as fair as it gets, the brain-fart golden boy shouldn't have tried to swerve for a better racing line into the next corner.

The most impressive thing is how classy Webber has been in his post race interviews, even when Vettel clearly cost him a race victory.

[UltimateDanGTR]

I have noticed that every time a young driver makes a mistake some people say, it's OK, he is young. First, this is a man (and not a boy, he is over 18 IMO), who has raced all his conscious life, 2nd, if every time he is excused he will REMAIN spoiled and will never grow. And BTW, Lewis Hamilton was bashed endlessly from media and fans, because of his attitude and in the end he has grown into a fine young man and excellent driver. Yes, he makes mistakes and sometimes speaks rubbish - but like every other driver. For me he has made huge progress since 2007.

he is a man, but still a young man. he has yet to mature into drivers like senna, mansell etc where at their peak.

mistakes like this are to be learned from in only his 3rd full season, though this will never devoid him of any blame in an incident. and mistakes will likely be even rarer than they are now by the time vettel reaches his peak/more mature years.

and still, no one has explained how vettel is spoilt.

[F1boat]

When in one race you expect your teammate to duly follow you and in another when you are second you attack him, instead of protecting a team 1-2, IMO it is a worrying sign that you are spoilt as a team favored son and you believe yourself to be the next best thing.
With a similar experience in F1, Lewis was very responsible in this year Chinese GP, for example. Maybe because there was some criticism after 2007.

[Big Ben]

I fully agree. It's my oponion too that he's over 18.