Just for Fun: The 2010 F1 World Championship, NASCAR Style

[slorydn1]

As many of you know, I have "borrowed" the F1 points system to score the NASCAR Sprint Cup season the last couple of years. Then I thought , wouldn't be cool to see how the F1 season shakes out using the NASCAR point system.

For those of you not familiar with the NASCAR point system a through explanation of how it works can be found here:

http://www.nascar.com/news/features/points.system/index.html

On top of awarding points based on finishing position, NASCAR also awards points based on laps led (5 points for leading at least 1 lap, and 5 points for leading the most laps). Every driver that starts gets points of some kind.

The knock on NASCAR points system in general is that it seems to award consistency over winning, and there is a nugget of truth to that, however, I'm a firm believer in Win the race, and the points will take care of themselves.

Even though there shouldn't be much of difference at the top of the grid, it really starts to get interesting at the back half of the field. As you'll see here in a minute, a few of the drivers with the new teams should have rides in better equipment, and some, well, are right where they belong.

I plan to keep up with this the rest of the season, and no, I will not be adding that stupid "chase" that the Sprint Cup Series has been saddled with since 2004, this is a straight up race by race deal. The results so far are current through Monaco.

Format is position, name, points, wins,:


001 M Webber..........987.....2
002 S Vettel..........967.....1
003 F Alonso..........959.....1
004 F Massa...........929.....0
005 J Button..........927.....2
006 R Kubica..........922.....0
007 N Rosberg.........915.....0
008 L Hamilton........911.....0
009 A Sutil...........809.....0
010 M Schumacher......806.....0
-------------------------------------
011 J Algersuari......780.....0
012 R Barrichello.....777.....0
013 V Liuzzi..........737.....0
014 V Petrov..........712.....0
015 S Buemi...........682.....0
016 H Kovalainen......678.....0
017 N Hulkenberg......676.....0
018 K Chandok.........663.....0
019 J Trulli..........654.....0
t20 L di Grassi.......645.....0
t20 B Senna...........645.....0
022 P de la Rosa......624.....0
023 K Kobayashi.......618.....0
024 T Glock...........615.....0

[markabilly]

F1 ought to borrow some of the rules for how to do safety cars....would be a massive improvement

[Tazio]

F1 ought to borrow some of the rules for how to do safety cars....would be a massive improvement
I don't see Snott Speed's name up there!
Where is Danica?

Is she still mad at Milka for not accepting Danny's
amorous advances?

hXUd6n1Vti8

C'est la vie

m_z13XymWVU

[markabilly]

gee taz, is that you in the background telling the other two about the magic touch??

opps, guess not.......................

[F1boat]

F1 ought to borrow some of the rules for how to do safety cars....would be a massive improvement

From NASCAR? LORD, NO!!!
About the original post, 10x for the info... Make a Chase for the final rounds, if you want :)

[I am evil Homer]

God no we'd have yellow flags just because there's a crisp packet on the track somewhere.

[edv]

Wow, that list really shows up Sauber's poor showing!

[Mia 01]

As long as it bring Lewis down the order, its fine with me.

[V12]

God no we'd have yellow flags just because there's a crisp packet on the track somewhere.

Nope, just drain covers (anyone actually believe that?)

[52Paddy]

Interesting twist on things there. Cheers :up:

[turismo6]

Wow, that list really shows up Sauber's poor showing!

And Chandok's good showing!

[Robinho]

Nope, just drain covers (anyone actually believe that?)

yeah, seeing as Williams have come out and said it was the loose drain cover that caused Rubens massive accident

[Mark]

Actually I agree that having a chase for the final few rounds would make things interesting, and would more closely mirror the situation we see in NASCAR.

Obviously the final 10 rounds wouldn't be appropriate, as F1 has around half the number of races, so the final 5?

[UltimateDanGTR]

Actually I agree that having a chase for the final few rounds would make things interesting, and would more closely mirror the situation we see in NASCAR.

Obviously the final 10 rounds wouldn't be appropriate, as F1 has around half the number of races, so the final 5?

please no-it would really stab a season in the heart. plus, the last few seasons have seen close championships, so no need for such a system IMO. I can understand it in nascar with 36 races, but like you say with half (or just over half) the races of a NASCAR season, the chances of a driver being loads and loads of points in front are much less.

[slorydn1]

Actually I agree that having a chase for the final few rounds would make things interesting, and would more closely mirror the situation we see in NASCAR.

Obviously the final 10 rounds wouldn't be appropriate, as F1 has around half the number of races, so the final 5?

Well, I could. The problem is going to be figuring out what the chase "adjustment" would be...in NASCAR the top 12 in points gets reset to 5000 points, plus 10 points for every race win prior to the beginning of the chase......

so if the chase were to start today the top 12 would look like this:

t1 M Webber............5020
t1 J Button..............5020
t3 S Vettel..............5010
t3 F Alonzo..............5010
then Massa down to Barrichello all tied for p5 with 5000 points.....

Should I just do the top 10 (which, as of now, would drop Algersuari and Barrichello) due to the 24 car field being smaller than the 43 car field in NASCAR or leave it at top 12 to be consistent?

ya talked me into it......Round 14 at Monza will be the last race of the regular season....

the "chase" rounds will be Singapore, Suzuka, Korea, Brasil, and Yaz Marina..

[Tazio]

I disagree with rewarding the pilot that leads the most laps like they do in NASCAR. I think it would change the strategy of teams in a discipline that just had a rule change to benefit the winner. I could see awarding I/2 point.
Just not too generous or some wise guy will take the pole with soft’s, take the lead and drive 1/2 +1 laps of the race then pit, after leading a procession.
You have to remember in N'Car leads change so often that it is only a reward for a car that is consistently racing near the front

[slorydn1]

please no-it would really stab a season in the heart. plus, the last few seasons have seen close championships, so no need for such a system IMO. I can understand it in nascar with 36 races, but like you say with half (or just over half) the races of a NASCAR season, the chances of a driver being loads and loads of points in front are much less.

Don't sweat it...although I despise the Chase, it's nothing but a 2nd spreadsheet to me....quite easy with only 24 drivers for me to keep track of and post both...

[Alexamateo]

.....

Should I just do the top 10 (which, as of now, would drop Algersuari and Barrichello) due to the 24 car field being smaller than the 43 car field in NASCAR or leave it at top 12 to be consistent?
..

Well nascar taking 12 out of a normal 43 car grid is ~28% of the field.

28% of 24 is 6.72 so maybe you should only take the "Lucky 7" or so.

[jens]

Thank goodness we don't have such points system in F1. It would be terrible to follow. :p :

[Mark in Oshawa]

Thank goodness we don't have such points system in F1. It would be terrible to follow. :p :

yet all those illiterate rednecks can figure it out? Puts paid to that common stereotype of Americans doesn't it? Not that you made it I understand.....

[Somebody]

Only if you think they're sitting there with spreadsheets and lap charts working it out themselves...

[Mark]

28% of 24 is 6.72 so maybe you should only take the "Lucky 7" or so.

Sounds reasonable! Or perhaps top 8? Like the old points and pickems stylee?

Personally I don't like the 'chase' any more than anybody else, but isn't the idea here to see how F1 would turn out under the NASCAR system? For the moment at least NASCAR includes the chase, so it should be here too, otherwise it wouldn't be the NASCAR system, it would be just some arbitrary made up system, which wouldn't tell us much :p

[slorydn1]

Sounds reasonable! Or perhaps top 8? Like the old points and pickems stylee?

Personally I don't like the 'chase' any more than anybody else, but isn't the idea here to see how F1 would turn out under the NASCAR system? For the moment at least NASCAR includes the chase, so it should be here too, otherwise it wouldn't be the NASCAR system, it would be just some arbitrary made up system, which wouldn't tell us much :p

Nascar still uses both systems.....the original system is still used in the Nationwide and Camping World Truck Series. It's only the top rung, Sprint Cup Series, that uses that chase deal.....Still, I can do it, will have an 8 car chase to start at Singapore....

[ShiftingGears]

Cool comparison but stupid points system. Points should be awarded on results only.

[slorydn1]

001 M Webber............1162.....2
002 J Button............1102.....2
t03 L Hamilton..........1101.....1
t03 F Alonso............1101.....1
005 F Massa.............1075.....0
006 R Kubica............1072.....0
007 N Rosberg...........1070.....0
008 S Vettel............1064.....1
-----------------------------------
009 M Schumacher........0965.....0
010 A Sutil.............0947.....0
011 J Algersuari........0907.....0
012 R Barrichello.......0898.....0
013 V Liuzzi............0861.....0
014 V Petrov............0830.....0
015 S Buemi.............0797.....0
016 N Hulkenberg........0788.....0
017 H Kovaleinen........0772.....0
018 K Chandok...........0766.....0
019 P De La Rosa........0754.....0
020 K Kobayashi.........0752.....0
021 L Di Grassi.........0751.....0
t22 J Trulli............0745.....0
t22 B Senna.............0745.....0
024 T Glock.............0724.....0

Vettel falls 6 spots to P8, and a SERIOUS battle is shaping up for P2 :beer:

[slorydn1]

001 M Webber............1322.....2
002 L Hamilton..........1296.....2
003 J Button............1272.....2
004 F Alonso............1271.....1
005 S Vettel............1229.....1
006 N Rosberg...........1220.....0
007 R Kubica............1218.....0
008 F Massa.............1193.....0
-----------------------------------
009 M Schumacher........1095.....0
010 A Sutil.............1081.....0
011 J Algersuari........1034.....0
012 R Barrichello.......1019.....0
013 V Liuzzi............0999.....0
014 S Buemi.............0944.....0
015 V Petrov............0942.....0
016 N Hulkenberg........0912.....0
017 H Kovaleinen........0887.....0
018 K Chandok...........0875.....0
019 L Di Grassi.........0857.....0
020 P De La Rosa........0851.....0
021 J Trulli............0845.....0
022 K Kobayashi.........0843.....0
023 B Senna.............0839.....0
024 T Glock.............0827.....0

[jens]

Thanks to mostly excellent reliability the standings look quite close to real pecking order, but maybe we could get some quite weird rankings if we applied the system to F1 seasons some 25 years ago?

[slorydn1]

Thanks to mostly excellent reliability the standings look quite close to real pecking order, but maybe we could get some quite weird rankings if we applied the system to F1 seasons some 25 years ago?

It's really hard to say. I would guess it would make more of a difference versus the "10-6 era" points standings than now, not so much for the eventual top 3 in any season, but most definitely from p7 on down I think there would be a huge difference. Back then the driver who finished p7 in a race got nothing for his troubles,
while in this deal he would get a nice 146 point haul plus any bonus points he may have scored for leading a lap; generally I would not expect the p7 finisher to lead any laps, but that said, Buemi finished p8 (a lap down I might add) and he led a lap in the middle of the flurry of green flag stops, so he earned 5 bonus points.

25 years ago is a ways before I started following F1 in the Schumacher era, so forgive my ignorance, but didn't they have fields as large or larger than exists now, versus the 20 car grid of the last several years? If so, than it would make an even bigger difference, the more cars in the field the the worse a bad finish kicks you in the gut in the Nascar system. In Cup and Nationwide the distance between the race winner (if he leads the most laps) and last place (p43) is 195-34, or 161 points. In the truck series the difference would be 195-55, or 140 points (36 truck field). In this current F1 season the difference between p1 and p24 (again assuming most laps led by the winner) is 195-91, or only 104 point differnce, and in last years field it would only have been 195-103, for a 92 points spread.

Maybe if I find some time in the next few weeks I'll dig up the race by race stats for the 1985 F1 season and see how it plays out :D

[Mark]

25 years ago is a ways before I started following F1 in the Schumacher era, so forgive my ignorance, but didn't they have fields as large or larger than exists now, versus the 20 car grid of the last several years? If so, than it would make an even bigger difference, the more cars in the field the the worse a bad finish kicks you in the gut in the Nascar system. In Cup and Nationwide the distance between the race winner (if he leads the most laps) and last place (p43) is 195-34, or 161 points. In the truck series the difference would be 195-55, or 140 points (36 truck field). In this current F1 season the difference between p1 and p24 (again assuming most laps led by the winner) is 195-91, or only 104 point differnce, and in last years field it would only have been 195-103, for a 92 points spread.


I think unless you go way back then the field has been limited to 26 starters, and back in the early 90's you would have that many cars racing, and more trying to qualify!

Although I think it's fair to say that the quality in depth was not there the tail enders were even worse than the 'new' teams we have today.

[slorydn1]

001 L Hamilton..........1466.....2
002 J Button............1437.....2
003 S Vettel............1424.....2
t04 M Webber............1413.....2
t04 F Alonso............1413.....1
006 R Kubica............1373.....0
007 N Rosberg...........1354.....0
008 F Massa.............1323.....0
-----------------------------------
009 A Sutil.............1231.....0
010 M Schumacher........1213.....0
011 R Barrichello.......1179.....0
012 J Algersuari........1158.....0
013 V Liuzzi............1114.....0
014 S Buemi.............1082.....0
015 V Petrov............1063.....0
016 N Hulkenberg........1009.....0
017 K Kobayashi.........0989.....0
018 K Chandok...........0984.....0
019 H Kovaleinen........0981.....0
020 P De La Rosa........0978.....0
021 L Di Grassi.........0969.....0
022 J Trulli............0945.....0
023 B Senna.............0942.....0
024 T Glock.............0933.....0

The championship battle using NASCAR points has really heated up. What I find extremely interesting is that the top 8 in points mirror the real points situation, the only exception there is that in NASCAR Webber and Alonso are tied at p4, while in real life its Webber p4, Alonso p5; although when 1 applies the tie-breaker (the first of which is race wins, which is the same in both series), then Webber and Alonso are p4 and p5 respectively in both. Neat stuff, really.

[Mark]

I think different points systems probably have less influence on the outcome of championships than many would have us believe!

[Sleeper]

I think different points systems probably have less influence on the outcome of championships than many would have us believe!
Autosport has done several comparison in the last few years with the different points systems used in F1 and there's less than 10 seasons that would have had a different champion, and some of them cant be counted because of drivers deliberatly holding back to do just the minimum instead of going for the top result on the day.

[AndyL]

I did some analysis on the "wins decides the champion" system that was in the provisional 2009 rules, and 12 driver's championships would have had a different outcome. Under Bernie's earlier medals system, I think there was one more so that would have been 13 (out of 59). I think it's safe to say those would be the extreme cases, any variety of points-based system would result in fewer changes.

[slorydn1]

001 L Hamilton..........1636.....2
002 M Webber............1608.....3
003 J Button............1597.....2
004 S Vettel............1570.....2
005 F Alonso............1534.....1
006 N Rosberg...........1519.....0
007 R Kubica............1467.....0
008 F Massa.............1441.....0
-----------------------------------
009 A Sutil.............1373.....0
010 M Schumacher........1351.....0
011 R Barrichello.......1334.....0
012 J Algersuari........1258.....0
013 V Liuzzi............1124.....0
014 S Buemi.............1209.....0
015 V Petrov............1187.....0
016 N Hulkenberg........1143.....0
017 K Kobayashi.........1139.....0
018 H Kovaleinen........1093.....0
019 K Chandok...........1090.....0
020 P De La Rosa........1075.....0
t21 L Di Grassi.........1060.....0
t21 J Trulli............1060.....0
023 T Glock.............1042.....0
024 B Senna.............0942.....0
025 S Yammamoto.........0103.....0

[Dave B]

Autosport has done several comparison in the last few years with the different points systems used in F1 and there's less than 10 seasons that would have had a different champion, and some of them cant be counted because of drivers deliberatly holding back to do just the minimum instead of going for the top result on the day.
Exactly. Comparisons are fun but pointless - take the oft quoted example of Hamilton failing to win the championship in 2008 under a different system, because he only finished 5th in the final race. Driving for 5th was a deliberate tactic, and under a different system who can say how McLaren would have managed the situation? It's elementary chaos theory. Under the NASCAR system teams may well have completely different strategies, we simply cannot know.

Fun, mind...

[wmcot]

Thank goodness we don't have such points system in F1. It would be terrible to follow. :p :

No, you missed the point. All you need is a hat with 2 cans of beer attached to a straw and the whole points system becomes perfectly clear! :)

[slorydn1]

001 L Hamilton..........1796.....2
002 M Webber............1758.....3
003 J Button............1757.....2
004 S Vettel............1735.....2
005 F Alonso............1724.....2
006 N Rosberg...........1661.....0
007 F Massa.............1621.....0
008 R Kubica............1613.....0
-----------------------------------
009 M Schumacher........1489.....0
010 A Sutil.............1485.....0
011 R Barrichello.......1461.....0
012 J Algersuari........1376.....0
013 V Liuzzi............1359.....0
014 V Petrov............1321.....0
015 S Buemi.............1300.....0
016 K Kobayashi.........1269.....0
017 N Hulkenberg........1267.....0
t18 P De La Rosa........1196.....0
t18 H Kovaleinen........1196.....0
020 L Di Grassi.........1160.....0
021 J Trulli............1154.....0
022 T Glock.............1151.....0
023 K Chandok...........1090.....0
024 B Senna.............1048.....0
025 S Yammamoto.........0200.....0

With just 3 races to go until the Chase, Lewis Hamilton only needs to gain 5 more points on whomever is in p9 (currently Schumacher) and he will be locked in.

In fact its a pretty safe bet that the current top 8 will still be the top 8 when the "Chase" starts in round 15, as even Kubica is 124 points ahead of the Shu- It would take a SERIOUS choke job by the Renault driver at the same time that Shu returns magicly to his Ferrari form, both being highly unlikely.

[slorydn1]

001 M Webber............1953.....4
002 S Vettel............1905.....2
t03 L Hamilton..........1899.....2
t03 J Button............1899.....2
005 F Alonso............1894.....2
006 F Massa.............1781.....0
007 N Rosberg...........1758.....0
008 R Kubica............1713.....0
-----------------------------------
009 M Schumacher........1619.....0
010 R Barrichello.......1595.....0
011 A Sutil.............1579.....0
012 V Liuzzi............1483.....0
013 V Petrov............1476.....0
014 J Algersuari........1467.....0
015 S Buemi.............1427.....0
016 N Hulkenberg........1417.....0
017 K Kobayashi.........1407.....0
018 P De La Rosa........1342.....0
019 H Kovaleinen........1317.....0
020 J Trulli............1272.....0
021 L Di Grassi.........1269.....0
022 T Glock.............1266.....0
023 B Senna.............1160.....0
024 K Chandok...........1090.....0
025 S Yammamoto.........0306.....0With just 2 rounds to go before the "chase" the top 5 are all locked in; Massa and Rosberg can lock him self in with a decent run at Spa. Kubica only needs 10 more points than the Schu and he will be locked in at Spa. Also Schumacher, Barrichello and Sutil all still have a shot, but not a real good one.

Every one from Liuzzi on down have been eliminated.

[woody2goody]

I'm always of the opinion that the NASCAR system always sorts out the best drivers and teams, and gives a very fair end product.

Looking at the table confirms this.

Seeing Sauber near the bottom because of all the DNFs they have had is perfectly right, as is Liuzzi and Sutil being close together, Alguersuari ahead of Buemi, and Webber being in the overall lead of the championship.

Vettel, Hamilton, Button and Alonso have all been very good this season, but they have all had their varying problems over the duration of the season, and it clearly shows here. Also very interesting to see just 11 points between the four of them at this point.

[Mark]

Am I right in thinking that the Italian GP is the last race of the 'normal' season and from Singapore the chase will start?

[slorydn1]

Am I right in thinking that the Italian GP is the last race of the 'normal' season and from Singapore the chase will start?


Yes you are correct, and sorry for being late with the results after Belgium, but my middle son was graduating Army basic training at Fort Benning, Ga and I had problems connecting to the internet at the hotel....

[slorydn1]

001 M Webber............2123.....4
002 L Hamilton..........2094.....3
003 S Vettel............2023.....2
004 J Button............1996.....2
005 F Alonso............1994.....2
006 F Massa.............1941.....0
007 N Rosberg...........1908.....0
008 R Kubica............1878.....0
-----------------------------------
009 M Schumacher........1765.....0
010 A Sutil.............1734.....0
011 R Barrichello.......1686.....0
012 V Liuzzi............1617.....0
013 V Petrov............1614.....0
014 J Algersuari........1591.....0
015 S Buemi.............1554.....0
016 K Kobayashi.........1549.....0
017 N Hulkenberg........1538.....0
018 P De La Rosa........1472.....0
019 H Kovaleinen........1432.....0
020 L Di Grassi.........1381.....0
021 J Trulli............1378.....0
022 T Glock.............1375.....0
023 B Senna.............1254.....0
024 K Chandok...........1090.....0
025 S Yammamoto.........0409.....0

The top 8 drivers listed are all now locked into the "Chase". Everyone from the Schu on back have been eliminated from the championship, and as such Round 14 in Monza will be more for the bonus points among the top 8 drivers for winning the race than anything else. After Monza, the top 8 in points will be reset, with each driver getting 5000 points + 10 bonus points per race win.
So as of right now, the top 8 seeds would look like this:


001 M Weber............5040
002 L Hamilton..........5030
t03 S Vettel............5020
t03 J Button............5020
t03 F Alonzo............5020
t06 F Massa...........5000
t06 N Rosberg..........5000
t06 R Kubica............5000

So lets go on to Monza and see how it shakes out

[ArrowsFA1]

So lets go on to Monza and see how it shakes out
Good stuff slorydn1 :up: It will be interesting to see how this pans out :s mokin:

[slorydn1]

For those of us who wanted the "classic style" NASCAR points standings, here are the standings through Monza the old way:


001 M Webber............2273.....4
002 L Hamilton..........2188.....3
003 F Alonso............2184.....3
004 S Vettel............2183.....2
005 J Button............2176.....2
006 F Massa.............2111.....0
007 N Rosberg...........2063.....0
008 R Kubica............2020.....0
-----------------------------------
009 M Schumacher........1903.....0
010 A Sutil.............1849.....0
011 R Barrichello.......1820.....0
012 V Liuzzi............1744.....0
013 V Petrov............1738.....0
014 J Algersuari........1709.....0
t15 N Hulkenberg........1684.....0
t15 S Buemi.............1684.....0
017 K Kobayashi.........1640.....0
018 P De La Rosa........1593.....0
019 H Kovaleinen........1541.....0
020 T Glock.............1487.....0
021 L Di Grassi.........1484.....0
022 J Trulli............1478.....0
023 B Senna.............1351.....0
024 K Chandok...........1090.....0
025 S Yammamoto.........0515.....0

In this deal, with 5 races to go, everyone from Liuzzi on down are eliminated from Championship contention. Sutil and Barrichello are facing elimination at Singapore, as will Schumacher if he has a really bad race.

For those of you that wanted the Full Nascar Experience, Chase and all, the regular season is now over. The Chase starts in Singapore, and here are the seedings:


001 M Weber.............5040
t02 L Hamilton..........5030
t02 F Alonso............5030
t04 J Button............5020
t04 S Vettel............5020
t06 F Massa.............5000
t06 N Rosberg...........5000
t06 R Kubica............5000
________________________
009 M Schumacher........1903
010 A Sutil.............1849
011 R Barrichello.......1820
012 V Liuzzi............1744
013 V Petrov............1738
014 J Algersuari........1709
t15 N Hulkenberg........1684
t15 S Buemi.............1684
017 K Kobayashi.........1640
018 P De La Rosa........1593
019 H Kovaleinen........1541
020 T Glock.............1487
021 L Di Grassi.........1484
022 J Trulli............1478
023 B Senna.............1351
024 K Chandok...........1090
025 S Yammamoto.........0515

In this deal, the top 8 are locked into the chase, everyone from the Schu on down is eliminated. Webbers comfortable 85 point lead is wiped out, luckily for him he has the 4 wins and a 10 point lead on the bonus points.

[Mark]

Great stuff. It'll be interesting to see how this works out in comparison to the real championship

[SteveA]

yet all those illiterate rednecks can figure it out?

I guess because they're not innumerate!

[jens]

Interesting that regardless of points system the standings would be quite similar. The biggest sufferer in NASCAR system seems to be Kobayashi due to significant amount of early season retirements.

[NaBUru38]

If Chase for the Cup drivers get their points reset to 5000 after 26 races, then F1 chase drivers should get 2700 points after 14 races.

[slorydn1]

If Chase for the Cup drivers get their points reset to 5000 after 26 races, then F1 chase drivers should get 2700 points after 14 races.


2700, 5000, its all academic, really. I could have made it 1,528,400 and it would have all had the same effect. It's high enough that the other drivers in the field who aren't in the chase can't possibly catch up to any of the drivers that are in.

Besides, with 5000 as the starting point it made it easier for the record keeper, me, to keep up with it.

I don't disagree with you, though. I'm an an old schooler that believes that full seasons should decide a championship, as it is in F1 today, and not in some contrived "playoff" to make racing more like a stick and ball sport. But as our sports fearless leader likes to say all the time, "it is what it is."

[slorydn1]

Ok, here are the standings in the old Nascar system through Singapore:


001 M Webber............2438.....4
002 F Alonso............2379.....4
003 S Vettel............2353.....2
004 J Button............2336.....2
005 L Hamilton..........2294.....3
006 F Massa.............2253.....0
007 N Rosberg...........2218.....0
008 R Kubica............2166.....0
-----------------------------------
009 M Schumacher........2027.....0
010 A Sutil.............1987.....0
011 R Barrichello.......1970.....0
012 V Petrov............1868.....0
013 J Algersuari........1836.....0
014 V Liuzzi............1835.....0
015 N Hulkenberg........1818.....0
016 S Buemi.............1805.....0
017 K Kobayashi.........1740.....0
018 H Kovaleinen........1656.....0
019 L Di Grassi.........1602.....0
020 T Glock.............1599.....0
021 P De La Rosa........1593.....0
022 J Trulli............1572.....0
023 B Senna.............1448.....0
024 K Chandok...........1090.....0
025 S Yammamoto.........0515.....0
026 N Heidfeld..........0109.....0
027 C Klein.............0103.....0

Webber's punting of Hamilton has cost Hamilton any real shot at the Championship in this deal, with Hamilton now 144 points back. Alonso really helped his cause by winning the race and leading the most laps (well actually leading them all) getting 195 points to Webber's 165 points for his P3 finish.
Webber is just 5 points shy of locking in to the top 8, and everyone from Sutil on back is now officially eliminated from contention. Schumacher is facing elimination in the next round, and will be if Webber scored just 5 more points than him in the next race, a virtual certainty.

Now, for those who wanted the current Nascar Chase deal, here are those standings:


001 F Alonso............5225
002 M Weber.............5205
003 S Vettel............5190
004 J Button............5180
005 N Rosberg...........5155
006 R Kubica............5146
007 F Massa.............5142
008 L Hamilton..........5136
___________________________
009 M Schumacher........2027
010 A Sutil.............1987
011 R Barrichello.......1970
012 V Petrov............1868
013 J Algersuari........1836
014 V Liuzzi............1835
015 N Hulkenberg........1818
016 S Buemi.............1805
017 K Kobayashi.........1740
018 H Kovaleinen........1656
019 L Di Grassi.........1602
020 T Glock.............1599
021 P De La Rosa........1593
022 J Trulli............1572
023 B Senna.............1448
024 K Chandok...........1090
025 S Yammamoto.........0515
026 N Heidfeld..........0109
027 C Klein.............0103

With the artifical resetting of the points coming into this race Hamilton's issues are even more magnified in the chase standings. Although he is closer to the leader (89 points back versus 144 the other way) he has fallen all the way to P8 in the standings. And the Tifosi would be rejoicing, Alonso is now the Championship leader 25 points ahead of Webber. 4 races to go, who will it be?

[BobbyC]

After all, they use an FIM system in BSB and the Showdown resets at 500 points.

[slorydn1]

Here are the full season standings using "classic" NASCAR points through Japan:


001 M Webber............2613.....4
002 S Vettel............2548.....3
003 F Alonso............2544.....4
004 J Button............2501.....2
005 L Hamilton..........2449.....3
006 F Massa.............2353.....0
007 N Rosberg...........2330.....0
008 R Kubica............2272.....0
-----------------------------------
009 M Schumacher........2177.....0
010 R Barrichello.......2108.....0
011 A Sutil.............2096.....0
012 J Algersuari........1966.....0
013 V Petrov............1965.....0
014 S Buemi.............1939.....0
015 V Liuzzi............1929.....0
016 N Hulkenberg........1921.....0
017 K Kobayashi.........1886.....0
018 H Kovaleinen........1783.....0
019 T Glock.............1720.....0
020 J Trulli............1696.....0
021 L Di Grassi.........1693.....0
022 P De La Rosa........1593.....0
023 B Senna.............1566.....0
024 K Chandok...........1090.....0
025 S Yammamoto.........0630.....0
026 N Heidfeld..........0251.....0
027 C Klein.............0103.....0

With just 3 races to go Webber would be be pretty tough to beat now, 65 points ahead of Vettel. Massa and Rosberg are facing elmination going into the next race, and Hamilton is 164 back, so he is pretty much toast at this point.

Here are the "Chase" standings:


001 F Alonso............5390
002 S Vettel............5385
003 M Weber.............5380
004 J Button............5345
005 L Hamilton..........5291
006 N Rosberg...........5267
007 R Kubica............5252
008 F Massa.............5242
___________________________
009 M Schumacher........2177
010 R Barrichello.......2108
011 A Sutil.............2096
012 J Algersuari........1966
013 V Petrov............1965
014 S Buemi.............1939
015 V Liuzzi............1929
016 N Hulkenberg........1921
017 K Kobayashi.........1886
018 H Kovaleinen........1783
019 T Glock.............1720
020 J Trulli............1696
021 L Di Grassi.........1693
022 P De La Rosa........1593
023 B Senna.............1566
024 K Chandok...........1090
025 S Yammamoto.........0630
026 N Heidfeld..........0251
027 C Klein.............0103

By design, the chase standings are much tighter, with Alonso up by 5 over Vettel and 10 over Webber. Hamilton is still in the game, only 99 back.

3 races to go, its really heating up!

[Mark]

I could well see different 'chase' vs normal winners.
Over the years that NASCAR has run the chase. Has there ever been a different champion than that which would have resulted without it?

[F1boat]

I could well see different 'chase' vs normal winners.
Over the years that NASCAR has run the chase. Has there ever been a different champion than that which would have resulted without it?

I think that JJ took two titles from Jeff Gordon, because of the chase, but I am not 100% sure.

[slorydn1]

I could well see different 'chase' vs normal winners.
Over the years that NASCAR has run the chase. Has there ever been a different champion than that which would have resulted without it?


The "Chase" has been around in since 2004. In that time, the Chase changed the championship outcome 3 times, to wit:

In 2004, Kurt Busch won the Chase Championship, yet Jeff Gordon would have won under the full season deal, by 47 points over Jimmie Johnson. Kurt Busch would have only been P4, 247 points back.

In 2007, Jimmie Johnson won the Chase Championship. Jeff Gordon would have easily crushed the competition under the full season deal, beating Johnson by a full 353 points.

In 2008, Jimmie Johnson won the Chase Championship, by a pretty decent margin if memory serves. In a perverse twist, the full season deal would have been very close, with Carl Edwards winning by a slim 16 points over Jimmie Johnson.

This year is shaping up to be another year that the Chase is going to hand yet another Championship to Jimmie Johnson. He's the leader now, but Kevin Harvick would be leading Jeff Gordon by 231 points, and Jimmie would be P3, 272 points back.....

[slorydn1]

Here are the classic NASCAR Standings:


001 F Alonso............2734.....5
002 M Webber............2704.....4
003 S Vettel............2670.....3
004 J Button............2628.....2
005 L Hamilton..........2619.....3
006 F Massa.............2518.....0
007 R Kubica............2427.....0
008 N Rosberg...........2424.....0
-----------------------------------
009 M Schumacher........2337.....0
010 R Barrichello.......2254.....0
011 A Sutil.............2211.....0
012 J Algersuari........2096.....0
013 V Liuzzi............2079.....0
014 V Petrov............2074.....0
015 N Hulkenberg........2055.....0
016 S Buemi.............2042.....0
017 K Kobayashi.........2028.....0
018 H Kovaleinen........1907.....0
019 T Glock.............1826.....0
t20 J Trulli............1793.....0
t20 L Di Grassi.........1793.....0
022 B Senna.............1687.....0
023 P De La Rosa........1593.....0
024 K Chandok...........1090.....0
025 S Yammamoto.........0748.....0
026 N Heidfeld..........0389.....0
027 C Klein.............0103.....0

With just 2 races to go everyone from Massa on down is eliminated from championship contention; Button and Hamilton are facing elimination at Brazil.
Webber's wreck and Vettle's blown engine have really tightend things up, and as in the real F1 world, Alonso has taken the points lead.

Now, for the "Chase" standings:


001 F Alonso............5580
002 S Vettel............5507
003 J Button............5472
004 M Weber.............5471
005 L Hamilton..........5461
t06 F Massa.............5407
t06 R Kubica............5407
008 N Rosberg...........5361
-----------------------------------
009 M Schumacher........2337
010 R Barrichello.......2254
011 A Sutil.............2211
012 J Algersuari........2096
013 V Liuzzi............2079
014 V Petrov............2074
015 N Hulkenberg........2055
016 S Buemi.............2042
017 K Kobayashi.........2028
018 H Kovaleinen........1907
019 T Glock.............1826
t20 J Trulli............1793
t20 L Di Grassi.........1793
022 B Senna.............1687
023 P De La Rosa........1593
024 K Chandok...........1090
025 S Yammamoto.........0748
026 N Heidfeld..........0389
027 C Klein.............0103


Webber's wreck was WAY more devestating to his championship hopes in this deal than it was in the classic NASCAR system, and even in real life. In fact, he's fallen all the way to p4, and is now facing elimination at Brazil, along with Button, Hamilton, Kubica, and Massa. In the same perverse twist that happend in real life in 2008 in the NASCAR world, the season long Classic points standings are closer (Alonso is +34 on Webber) than the Chase, where Alonso is +73 on Vettel. Now I really think this illustrates why I, and many true race fans like me, absolutely detest the "Chase" in NASCAR. I am a firm believer that no matter what the points system is, that the Champion should be the driver/team that performs the best over the entire season, and not just over an artificialy set number of races near the end. The Chase was designed to tighten things up at the end of the season and to create artificial drama. Webber blew that up the second he got his left side tires up on the apron, and Vettel's engine failure pretty much sealed it.

That said, Alonso is the points leader, in all 3 points systems....Interesting how things work out. :s mokin:

[AndyL]

I wonder if Jenson will be considering a switch to Nascar in view of how much better he's doing here than in the real championship ;)

[slorydn1]

Here is the season long, no Chase version:


001 F Alonso............2899.....5
002 M Webber............2879.....4
003 S Vettel............2865.....4
004 J Button............2783.....2
005 L Hamilton..........2779.....3
006 F Massa.............2636.....0
007 R Kubica............2565.....0
008 N Rosberg...........2574.....0
-----------------------------------
009 M Schumacher........2483.....0
010 R Barrichello.......2375.....0
011 A Sutil.............2338.....0
012 J Algersuari........2226.....0
013 N Hulkenberg........2197.....0
014 V Petrov............2189.....0
015 V Liuzzi............2170.....0
016 S Buemi.............2166.....0
017 K Kobayashi.........2162.....0
018 H Kovaleinen........2016.....0
019 T Glock.............1929.....0
t20 J Trulli............1899.....0
t20 L Di Grassi.........1887.....0
022 B Senna.............1787.....0
023 P De La Rosa........1593.....0
024 K Chandok...........1090.....0
025 S Yammamoto.........0748.....0
026 N Heidfeld..........0501.....0
027 C Klein.............0200.....0


Now there are only 3 left standing. Alonso has a slim 20 point lead on Webber, and 34 over Vettel. If Webber wins the race, and leads the most laps, and Alonso finishes p2 and never leads, Webber wins the Championship out right. If Alonso leads just 1 lap in that scenario, they tie and would tie again on the first tie-breaker with 5 wins a piece! It would go to the second tie-breaker (which you may recall I set as the FIA points standings when I started this) which would hand the championship to Alonso by 1 POINT 264-263!!!!!

Vettel could win by winning the race, and leading the most laps as long as Alonso finishes no better than P4 and doesn't lead any laps, or p5 if he leads one -AND- it really doesn't matter what Webber does at that point because even if he leads a lap and finishes p2 Vettel wins by 1 point!!! If he just wins the race, then he would need Webber to not lead the most laps, or finish P3 if he does, and then Alonso would have to finish p5 and not lead, p6 if he leads a lap, or p8 if he leads the most laps. If Alonso were to finish p7 and lead the most laps under that scenario, they tie, tie again on the wins tie-breaker with 5, and tie AGAIN on the FIA points tie-breaker 256-256!!!! It would go to second place finishes next, and they would TIE AGAIN with 2!!!!!!! So on to P3's, and they TIE YET AGAIN with 3 each (I'm getting DIZZY)...Vettel would FINNALY get it done on the 5th Tie-breaker, P4 finishes, with 1 more than Alonso.............

WHO says F1 a'int competitive?!?!?!? The closest NASCAR has ever been able to get with this system with no Chase was in 1992 When Alan Kulwicki edged Bill Elliot by just 10 points!

Here are the Chase Points standings:


001 F Alonso............5745
002 S Vettel............5702
003 M Webber............5646
004 J Button............5627
005 L Hamilton..........5621
006 R Kubica............5545
007 F Massa.............5525
008 N Rosberg...........5511
-----------------------------------
009 M Schumacher........2483
010 R Barrichello.......2375
011 A Sutil.............2338
012 J Algersuari........2226
013 N Hulkenberg........2197
014 V Petrov............2189
015 V Liuzzi............2170
016 S Buemi.............2166
017 K Kobayashi.........2162
018 H Kovaleinen........2016
019 T Glock.............1929
t20 J Trulli............1899
t20 L Di Grassi.........1887
022 B Senna.............1787
023 P De La Rosa........1593
024 K Chandok...........1090
025 S Yammamoto.........0748
026 N Heidfeld..........0501
027 C Klein.............0200

There are only 3 left in this deal, too. Alonso leads Vettel by 43 and Webber by 99. Alonso only needs to finish P22 or better to keep Webber from winning it all, and clinches with a finish of P5 or better regardless of what Vettel does, P6 if he can lead a lap, and p9 if he can lead the most laps, so he does have some small cushion if something were to happen late in the race like a sudden loss of horsepower or overheated brakes (etc)...

Very interesting scenarios indeed, lets see how it plays out....

[call_me_andrew]

NASCAR's point system is out of date, but it does provide a better ranking for backmarker drivers than the FIA system.

[Mark]

NASCAR's point system is out of date, but it does provide a better ranking for backmarker drivers than the FIA system.

IMO F1 doesn't need to rank the backmarkers, if they aren't fast enough, they don't get a look in!

[call_me_andrew]

Well how do you determine who the best of the slow teams is?

[slorydn1]

001 S Vettel............3060.....5
002 F Alonso............3045.....5
003 M Webber............3021.....4
004 J Button............2953.....2
005 L Hamilton..........2949.....3
006 F Massa.............2770.....0
007 N Rosberg...........2734.....0
008 R Kubica............2720.....0
-----------------------------------
009 M Schumacher........2577.....0
010 R Barrichello.......2502.....0
011 A Sutil.............2462.....0
012 J Algersuari........2364.....0
013 V Petrov............2339.....0
014 N Hulkenberg........2312.....0
015 S Buemi.............2284.....0
016 K Kobayashi.........2283.....0
017 V Liuzzi............2261.....0
018 H Kovaleinen........2128.....0
019 T Glock.............2026.....0
t20 J Trulli............1999.....0
t20 L Di Grassi.........1996.....0
022 B Senna.............1893.....0
023 P De La Rosa........1593.....0
024 K Chandok...........1090.....0
025 S Yammamoto.........0748.....0
026 N Heidfeld..........0631.....0
027 C Klein.............0303.....0

Congrats to Sebastian Vettel for a thrilling season, no matter which way it is scored. :beer:

As you can see, he edged Alonso by just 15 points. as tight as this battle was, even in Nascar scoring, it came down to BONUS POINTS.
You see, all 5 of Vettel's race wins were of the 195 point variety-meaning he led the most laps in all 5 races he won. Yet only 1 of Alonso's (Singapore) was that kind of deal. The in his other 4 wins, he only scored 190 points, so that is a 20 point swing right there. In 2 of those 4 races (Bahrain and Korea) Vettel led the most laps but had a mechanical problem, the 3rd was Monza, where Button pretty much dominated the race, and the 4th...well that was the infamous deal at Hockenheim where Massa led the most laps.

Here is the "Chase Version"......


001 S Vettel............5897
002 F Alonso............5891
003 J Button............5797
004 L Hamilton..........5791
005 M Weber.............5788
006 R Kubica............5700
007 N Rosberg...........5671
008 F Massa.............5659
-------------------------------
009 M Schumacher........2577
010 R Barrichello.......2502
011 A Sutil.............2462
012 J Algersuari........2364
013 V Petrov............2339
014 N Hulkenberg........2312
015 S Buemi.............2284
016 K Kobayashi.........2283
017 V Liuzzi............2261
018 H Kovaleinen........2128
019 T Glock.............2026
020 J Trulli............1999
021 L Di Grassi.........1996
022 B Senna.............1893
023 P De La Rosa........1593
024 K Chandok...........1090
025 S Yammamoto.........0748
026 N Heidfeld..........0631
027 C Klein.............0303



Here again, a championship by Vettel, this time by a razor thin 6 points.
Either way you slice it, the young German driver "got 'er done..."

Now, for those of you who wanted a comparison of the back marker teams and drivers, I have figured out a way to that as well using this system, which will be in the next post:

[slorydn1]

Here is a little deal I came up with to score the teams and drivers using nascar points- points per race. This way we can see how Yammamoto compared to Chandok, for example using points divided by the actual number of races they competed in.
For the constructor I used the total number of points divided scored by all the drivers involved divided by 2 (there are 2 "seats" in every race per team regardless of who's in them)....

This is what I came up with:

1) Red Bull: 160.02
Vettel: 161.05
Webber: 159.00

2) McLaren: 155.31
Button: 155.42
Hamilton: 155.21

3) Ferrari: 153.03
Alonso: 160.26
Massa: 145.79

4) Mercedes: 139.76
Rosberg: 143.89
Schumacher: 135.63

5) Renault: 133.13
Kubica: 143.16
Petrov: 123.11

6) Williams: 126.68
Barrichello: 131.68
Hulkenburg: 121.68

7) Force India: 124.28
Sutil: 129.58
Liuzzi: 119.00

8) Torro Rosso: 122.32
Algersuari: 124.42
Buemi: 120.21

9) BMW-Sauber: 118.61
Heidfeld: 126.20
Kobayashi: 120.16
de La Rosa: 113.79

10) Lotus: 108.61
Kovalainen: 112.00
Trulli: 105.21

11) HRT: 106.15
Chandok: 109.00
Yammamoto: 106.86
Senna: 105.17
Klein: 101.00

12) Virgin: 105.84
Glock: 106.63
Di Grassi: 105.05

I'm not gonna do any analysis, I'll leave to y'all who are the F1
experts...

[Mark]

Good to see that Vettel would be champ whichever way you cut it. Thanks for doing this it has been most informative!

[jens]

Interesting that the "ordinary" championship and the chase didn't turn out too differently. Top2 is the still the same in the same order and Top5 still consists of the same drivers.

[rightnwrong]

Here is a little deal I came up with to score the teams and drivers using nascar points- points per race. This way we can see how Yammamoto compared to Chandok, for example using points divided by the actual number of races they competed in.
For the constructor I used the total number of points divided scored by all the drivers involved divided by 2 (there are 2 "seats" in every race per team regardless of who's in them)....

This is what I came up with:

1) Red Bull: 160.02
Vettel: 161.05
Webber: 159.00

2) McLaren: 155.31
Button: 155.42
Hamilton: 155.21

3) Ferrari: 153.03
Alonso: 160.26
Massa: 145.79

4) Mercedes: 139.76
Rosberg: 143.89
Schumacher: 135.63

5) Renault: 133.13
Kubica: 143.16
Petrov: 123.11

6) Williams: 126.68
Barrichello: 131.68
Hulkenburg: 121.68

7) Force India: 124.28
Sutil: 129.58
Liuzzi: 119.00

8) Torro Rosso: 122.32
Algersuari: 124.42
Buemi: 120.21

9) BMW-Sauber: 118.61
Heidfeld: 126.20
Kobayashi: 120.16
de La Rosa: 113.79

10) Lotus: 108.61
Kovalainen: 112.00
Trulli: 105.21

11) HRT: 106.15
Chandok: 109.00
Yammamoto: 106.86
Senna: 105.17
Klein: 101.00

12) Virgin: 105.84
Glock: 106.63
Di Grassi: 105.05

I'm not gonna do any analysis, I'll leave to y'all who are the F1
experts...

Thanks for posting this informative tally. Now I know who has a chance to be a champ. :D