Newey or nothing?

[Mia 01]

I think Maclaren in the long term are doomed whitout Adrian Newey.

The MP 22 & 23 was an evolution of his design. The MP 24 & 25 are dogs moore or less. No new WCC whitout Adrian I fear, when was the last time, -98?

For now Adrian works for that awful drinks company, and their cars are beating the **** out off the MacLaren team. Even if they have the new Senna in the team nothing seems to help.

Ron should call Adrian right now, perhaps he then can save the team.

[DazzlaF1]

I think Maclaren in the long term are doomed whitout Adrian Newey.

The MP 22 & 23 was an evolution of his design. The MP 24 & 25 are dogs moore or less. No new WCC whitout Adrian I fear, when was the last time, -98?

For now Adrian works for that awful drinks company, and their cars are beating the **** out off the MacLaren team. Even if they have the new Senna in the team nothing seems to help.

Ron should call Adrian right now, perhaps he then can save the team.

Yes he was a big loss to them when he defected to Red Bull in 2006 but you cannot just blame that for the problems that have occured since, after all, in 2008 they proved that they can build and develop a decent championship winning car without him.

Plus its too early in my view to dismiss this year's McLaren as a "dog", its won 2 races so far this season out of 6 and took a dominant 1-2 finish in China to boot.

[driveace]

The Red Bull is still streets ahead of any thing else,and the renault is a surprize too.So Mac need to up their game,because if they dont the Red Bull will be over a second a lap quicker,rather the 6 hundreths quicker,that it is now!

[I am evil Homer]

Maybe they'll allow Merc to upgrade their engine like the FIA allowed with Renault...funny how Renault powered cars seem to be doing so well now...

[SGWilko]

The Red Bull is still streets ahead of any thing else,and the renault is a surprize too.So Mac need to up their game,because if they dont the Red Bull will be over a second a lap quicker,rather the 6 hundreths quicker,that it is now!

All in good time. The Red Bull is an evolution of the 2009 car which, even without the DDD and a weezing motor was pretty nippy.

All change next year, no more evolution, no more DDD, possibly the return of KERS.

Red Bull never incorporated KERS into their cars, and I would guess that Newey will have a headache or two packaging that and keeping it cool......

Lets just see who develops the quickest this year.....

[Saint Devote]

I haven't noticed the Woking mechanics running around shouting Albatross just yet!

[SGWilko]

I haven't noticed the Woking mechanics running around shouting Albatross just yet!

They might do that on a weekend, but wait until you are not looking.... ;)

[Saint Devote]

They might do that on a weekend, but wait until you are not looking.... ;)

Damn, never thought of THAT - I overlooked that Ron's organization is so organized!!!

:D On the other hand - Lewis seems to forget that in the heat of the racing moment over the RADIO.

[fandango]

It seems very strange that an aerodynamicist can have so much influence on whether a car is a winning car or not. I mean, when you think about it, the problems in F1 regarding overtaking are because of aerodynamics (the following car in the dirty air and all that) are well accepted, and yet we have a situation where there is an engine development freeze and a single tyre supplier (= very little tyre development).

So if, for example, Ferrari want to catch up with Red Bull, they can't do it by strapping on a new engine with more power or improving their tyres. They have to improve their aerdynamics. Would not make more sense to have an aero freeze? Or better yet, let the teams decide which element they will freeze at the start of the year...

[Saint Devote]

It seems very strange that an aerodynamicist can have so much influence on whether a car is a winning car or not. I mean, when you think about it, the problems in F1 regarding overtaking are because of aerodynamics (the following car in the dirty air and all that) are well accepted, and yet we have a situation where there is an engine development freeze and a single tyre supplier (= very little tyre development).

So if, for example, Ferrari want to catch up with Red Bull, they can't do it by strapping on a new engine with more power or improving their tyres. They have to improve their aerdynamics. Would not make more sense to have an aero freeze? Or better yet, let the teams decide which element they will freeze at the start of the year...

The whole argument involves aerodynamics - problem is unless there is an outright banning of aero, which would destabilize the cars and make them extremely risky to drive, the only way is to do it in current fashion.

"Problem" is that there are such brilliant people working in f1 that they will innovate.

And if reducing aero is achieved, how is it policed? There are people that have put forward what appears to be sound hypotheses, however it is in the theory and finally application that the true result will be known.

By then its too late because the cars are built and it is set at least for an entire season. I dont see a way out of this. Formula One is the way it is.

Let the teams decide?! I think we went through that argument in 2009 :eek:

[SGWilko]

The whole argument involves aerodynamics - problem is unless there is an outright banning of aero, which would destabilize the cars and make them extremely risky to drive

I don't agree with this viewpoint - not if you specifically design a car without wings, diffuser etc.

Obviously, if you take a current car and just lop off the wings it will be rather slow on the corners, but wicked quick on the straights!!!

[Mark]

There is nothing about aero that makes it a requirement for safety. If anything it increases cornering speeds which actually makes the cars less safe!

If you were to reduce downforce to zero, obviously the cars would have to go around the corners much more slowly, so the speed involved if you have an accident is thus much reduced.

[ShiftingGears]

I think Maclaren in the long term are doomed whitout Adrian Newey.

The MP 22 & 23 was an evolution of his design. The MP 24 & 25 are dogs moore or less. No new WCC whitout Adrian I fear, when was the last time, -98?

For now Adrian works for that awful drinks company, and their cars are beating the **** out off the MacLaren team. Even if they have the new Senna in the team nothing seems to help.

Ron should call Adrian right now, perhaps he then can save the team.

McLaren have been excellent. Even when they were behind the 8-ball at the start of last year they improved quite rapidly. Have no doubt - they are a top team, and performing just fine without Newey.

[V12]

It seems very strange that an aerodynamicist can have so much influence on whether a car is a winning car or not. I mean, when you think about it, the problems in F1 regarding overtaking are because of aerodynamics (the following car in the dirty air and all that) are well accepted, and yet we have a situation where there is an engine development freeze and a single tyre supplier (= very little tyre development).

So if, for example, Ferrari want to catch up with Red Bull, they can't do it by strapping on a new engine with more power or improving their tyres. They have to improve their aerdynamics. Would not make more sense to have an aero freeze? Or better yet, let the teams decide which element they will freeze at the start of the year...

Or even better, freeze nothing at all! :cool:

I agree with the bulk of what you're saying though, F1 has boxed itself into this aero-is-all corner with the engine and tyre regs, and the rulemakers have nobody to blame but themselves. They try and blame the economy but that was in fairly rude health when the engines and tyres were neutered in the 2006/07 off-season.

[Mia 01]

McLaren have been excellent. Even when they were behind the 8-ball at the start of last year they improved quite rapidly. Have no doubt - they are a top team, and performing just fine without Newey.

Agreed on , they are a top team.

Now when the engines no longer go booooom, the only thing they need is Adrian and Kimi.

[fandango]

The whole argument involves aerodynamics - problem is unless there is an outright banning of aero, which would destabilize the cars and make them extremely risky to drive, the only way is to do it in current fashion.

"Problem" is that there are such brilliant people working in f1 that they will innovate.......................................... .....

Let the teams decide?! I think we went through that argument in 2009 :eek:

It's not the only way to do it. It's possible to limit the aero influence while at the same time using the talent of the "brilliant people" to re-inforce the situation.

The concept is very simple:

Downforce can be measured. The loss of downforce that happens to a car in "dirty" air can also be measured. So, let the "brilliant people" design whatever way they want, but with a limit to how much they disturb the air for other cars. The limit is clear, without the necessity for being cleverer than the designers.

As for the development freeze, what I was saying was that perhaps they should make teams choose between freezing their aero development, their engine or their tyres. It would make for more variation in the designs, leading to more passing, different cars being stronger on different circuits. Remember the early 80s? Sometimes the turbos were quicker, sometimes the cosworths. The idea is just speculation....

[V12]

As for the development freeze, what I was saying was that perhaps they should make teams choose between freezing their aero development, their engine or their tyres. It would make for more variation in the designs, leading to more passing, different cars being stronger on different circuits. Remember the early 80s? Sometimes the turbos were quicker, sometimes the cosworths. The idea is just speculation....

Yep more design variety, or rather different teams having different strengths in different areas, is always a good thing. As recently as 1994, Benetton had the best driver (after Imola), Williams the best car, and Ferrari the best engine, which meant for instance at Hockenheim the form book got ripped up and Ferrari dominated in the middle of a season where they were generally a distant third in the pecking order. And this was when everyone was on the same tyres (although not by regulation).

When you add tyres into the mix then there's countless examples of un-artificially shaking up the order when there's been a tyre war, Mexico 1986, Phoenix 1990, Barcelona and possibly Hungaroring 1997, the entire 2003 and 2005 seasons (including Indy - hey at least we got an unusual top 6 in that one), and so on.

Yes, if there is to be a freeze then your idea would be infinitely better than what we have now, I just don't like the idea of freezing full-stop, in what is supposed to be a technical competition.

[AndyL]

Downforce can be measured. The loss of downforce that happens to a car in "dirty" air can also be measured. So, let the "brilliant people" design whatever way they want, but with a limit to how much they disturb the air for other cars. The limit is clear, without the necessity for being cleverer than the designers.

It's an interesting concept, but one issue I see is that when the rules are framed based on a particular method of measurement, the "brilliant people" will just find ways to make something that passes the test conditions, but behaves differently in the "real world". Think of the Ferrari sprung floor for example.
I can imagine teams spending piles of cash coming up with designs that pass the FIA wind tunnel test, but generate much more turbulence for the following car when the driver is sitting in it, or when the engine's running, or at different speeds to what the FIA test at.
Which is one reason why they invariably fall back on the blunt instrument of legislating on the causes (sizes of wings and diffusers etc.) rather than measuring effects.

[fandango]

It's an interesting concept, but one issue I see is that when the rules are framed based on a particular method of measurement, the "brilliant people" will just find ways to make something that passes the test conditions, but behaves differently in the "real world". Think of the Ferrari sprung floor for example.
I can imagine teams spending piles of cash coming up with designs that pass the FIA wind tunnel test, but generate much more turbulence for the following car when the driver is sitting in it, or when the engine's running, or at different speeds to what the FIA test at.
Which is one reason why they invariably fall back on the blunt instrument of legislating on the causes (sizes of wings and diffusers etc.) rather than measuring effects.


Yes, but that would be further down the road. There's always a simple way round these things, that's why, for example, they introduced the wooden plank on the bottom of the car.

[fandango]

................I just don't like the idea of freezing full-stop, in what is supposed to be a technical competition.

Nor do I, but F1 teams reached the limit of what's possible a long time ago, in terms of safety at the circuits. So from now on we'll have limits, a fact which we have to live with. The question is how to maintain the spectacle.

[Mia 01]

Frank Williams think Adrian is superiour.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83762

[Rodster]

Frank Williams think Adrian is superiour.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83762

He is the best, no question. Every team he's been with he's produced fast cars, Williams, McLaren, Red Bull. The guy is the best of the best. Too bad he can't be forced into changing teams every year just to make things interesting. :D

[jens]

Like mentioned in the Ferrari thread, I do feel that both giants have lost a bit of their edge. They are still good, but not that good nor unbeatable. Already 2009 was a sign of that, which marked the beginning of the new era - the dominance of Ferrari/McLaren is over. In the last few years I have been a great believer in McLaren and considered them to be the most complete team on the grid, but somehow they are failing to stamp their authority over others convincingly.

[Mia 01]

Well, then it must be nothing.

Adrian for sure are frustrated now.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Like mentioned in the Ferrari thread, I do feel that both giants have lost a bit of their edge. They are still good, but not that good nor unbeatable. Already 2009 was a sign of that, which marked the beginning of the new era - the dominance of Ferrari/McLaren is over. In the last few years I have been a great believer in McLaren and considered them to be the most complete team on the grid, but somehow they are failing to stamp their authority over others convincingly.

I look at it like this-we now have a third giant-Red Bull. mercedes could be the fourth in a few years, I think they are not quite there yet.

naturally, with more of these 'giants' each 'giant' has to share more winning space with the others.

however, whereas I get the great sense of speedy devlopment by mclaren and red bull, I cant say the same for ferrari as of now. maybe the large upgrade package coming soon will change that.

[V12]

Nor do I, but F1 teams reached the limit of what's possible a long time ago, in terms of safety at the circuits. So from now on we'll have limits, a fact which we have to live with. The question is how to maintain the spectacle.

I agree but that's what regulations should be for, rather than freezes. I'm not suggesting a free-for-all where everyone builds unlimited machinery then loses because Jeremy Clarkson enters a Transit van with a modified rear bumper that is as wide as the track and causes everyone to burn up and retire when they lap him on the second lap. I just miss the days (which weren't that long ago - 3 or 4 years) when they said "here's the rules saying what you can and can't do - have at it".

If they want to freeze and standardise stuff they might as well be honest in their intentions and bring a spec formula, I'd be (genuinely) interested to see how many fans bother to stick around, even if I wouldn't be one of them.

[Jag_Warrior]

Newey is certainly a great designer. But if Red Bull's success is based solely/mostly on his design skills, then I think Red Bull's success will be short lived. Newey is not getting any younger and he won't be around forever (he could retire, die or leave for another team). So unless the Red Bull organization becomes more like Ferrari's and McLaren's, at some point, I think this fairytale will end.

All of the top teams, including Ferrari, have had their "suck" years. Red Bull is still a pretty new team to the sport. Only once we see how they recover from their inevitable "suck season" can we say how good they really are (as an organization). Maybe they'll come back strong, as McLaren and Ferrari have... or maybe they'll go the way of Williams GP (which is sad... even though I was never a big Williams fan). But that's what has kept me an F1 fan for all these years: you never know what's coming next! :up:

[Big Ben]

I dread to think how fast the Red Bull car would be like if a team of designers and aerodynamicists joined Newey, rather than him single handedly doing it all himself.. :D

I think I've seen him even changing the tires a few times.

[scaliwag]

The whole argument involves aerodynamics - problem is unless there is an outright banning of aero, which would destabilize the cars and make them extremely risky to drive, the only way is to do it in current fashion.

"Problem" is that there are such brilliant people working in f1 that they will innovate.

And if reducing aero is achieved, how is it policed? There are people that have put forward what appears to be sound hypotheses, however it is in the theory and finally application that the true result will be known.

By then its too late because the cars are built and it is set at least for an entire season. I dont see a way out of this. Formula One is the way it is.

Let the teams decide?! I think we went through that argument in 2009 :eek:


S/D I've said this before many times, and been castigated for it.
.
F1 should be about innovation and technology, to assist innovation and technological advancement the regulations should be as flexible as possible within set boundaries, to wit, length, width, weight, wheel size, engine size in liters not cylinders, amount of fuel to be consumed etc.

outside of those general parameters anything goes.

Colin Chapman was one of the best innovators the sport has ever been blessed with, a true innovative genius, alas under Max's reign and latterly under Todt F1 has been slowly turned into a one size fits all charade.

scaliwag.

[SGWilko]

Newey is certainly a great designer. But if Red Bull's success is based solely/mostly on his design skills, then I think Red Bull's success will be short lived. Newey is not getting any younger and he won't be around forever (he could retire, die or leave for another team). So unless the Red Bull organization becomes more like Ferrari's and McLaren's, at some point, I think this fairytale will end.

All of the top teams, including Ferrari, have had their "suck" years. Red Bull is still a pretty new team to the sport. Only once we see how they recover from their inevitable "suck season" can we say how good they really are (as an organization). Maybe they'll come back strong, as McLaren and Ferrari have... or maybe they'll go the way of Williams GP (which is sad... even though I was never a big Williams fan). But that's what has kept me an F1 fan for all these years: you never know what's coming next! :up:

Knowing Newey's desire to design racing yachts, I see Red Bull as a good company to one-day facilitate that desire.

[Mia 01]

Knowing Newey's desire to design racing yachts, I see Red Bull as a good company to one-day facilitate that desire.

Unless, ofcourse, Lewis drives for RBR?

[SGWilko]

Unless, ofcourse, Lewis drives for RBR?

Ah yes, because Lewis is better at designing racing Yachts?

Silly me.

[ioan]

Ah yes, because Lewis is better at designing racing Yachts?

Silly me.

:D :up:

[Mia 01]

It all comes with the job Mia. Every team faces ups and downs and fortunately F1 is less fickle than football where the first sign of failure and everybody gets sacked. Newey is under pressure because he has so far produced a car which has been capable of winning every round so far, but has only scored 3 wins out of 7.

Mclaren have clearly closed the gap considerably and Red Bull should be worried by their rapid development pace. In situations like this the fans focus on the much hyped Newey as the best designer in F1, and people like Paddy Lowe, Neil Oatley, and Andrew Bailey are significantly overlooked. I personally think Mclaren have a very good chance to overtake Red Bull heading into the second half of the season and with this latest internal pressure at RB, they need to embrace this opportunity IMO. Red Bull have lost a huge amount of valuable points in the first half through bad judgement and mechanical failures, which maybe the deciding factor.. :)

Lately it´s most downs unfortunately.

As I said above, this year could be RBR :s chance to bring home WCC. What a pity.

[Mia 01]

Team up with Kimi as soon as possible Adrian. I knew he agrees with me.

[Jag_Warrior]

I like Kimi. But without a blazing fire under his backside, he seems easily distracted and can become rather unmotivated. In an odd way, he reminds me of James Hunt. Not exactly, but he does have some of the same qualities (which is why I'd love to see him back in F1). I can't get a sense of Vettel's true nature. But if/when he turns into a heartless, cold blooded killer (on the track ;) ), I think Red Bull will have the man they want. I just don't think he's there yet. Until then, I think Webber is as good as anyone else to pair him.

[truefan72]

I like Kimi. But without a blazing fire under his backside, he seems easily distracted and can become rather unmotivated. In an odd way, he reminds me of James Hunt. Not exactly, but he does have some of the same qualities (which is why I'd love to see him back in F1). I can't get a sense of Vettel's true nature. But if/when he turns into a heartless, cold blooded killer (on the track ;) ), I think Red Bull will have the man they want. I just don't think he's there yet. Until then, I think Webber is as good as anyone else to pair him.

its funny. kimi has one bad year after he wins the WDC and suddenly the guy is an enigmatic driver?

I never heard any complaints or issues about kimi's motivation prior to 2008 and he alway seemed like he was giving it his best in the cars he drove. to me the whole thing about kimi being an apathetic driver is just nonsense. It is a way to try and rationalize his behavior to fit some sort of homogenized view of what drivers should be. I could care less if he doesn't spend endless hours at the factory rubbing shoulders with the engineers, or spends all his time telling anyone who would listen how dedicated they are to the team, sport, car etc.

to me Kimi is a fast driver, proven winner and a personality. I'd take him on my team any day over 95% off the drivers out there.

[Mia 01]

Adrian has tuned the F-duct to this weekend.

Fear, fear, anyone?

[Sleeper]

its funny. kimi has one bad year after he wins the WDC and suddenly the guy is an enigmatic driver?

I never heard any complaints or issues about kimi's motivation prior to 2008 and he alway seemed like he was giving it his best in the cars he drove. to me the whole thing about kimi being an apathetic driver is just nonsense. It is a way to try and rationalize his behavior to fit some sort of homogenized view of what drivers should be. I could care less if he doesn't spend endless hours at the factory rubbing shoulders with the engineers, or spends all his time telling anyone who would listen how dedicated they are to the team, sport, car etc.

to me Kimi is a fast driver, proven winner and a personality. I'd take him on my team any day over 95% off the drivers out there.
He had a pretty crap 2006 and the start and end of last year was a bit ropey as well. It seems to be something he developed in the last few years after he got tired of endlessly unreliable McLarens.

[Mia 01]

Kimi + Adrian.

Fear Lewis