Money, money, money!

[Maui J.]

After walking around the service park at Rally NZ and looking at the major expense it takes to compete at this level, my burning question is where does all the money come from?
I’m not talking about the works teams, or the WRC privateers. I can see the Argentinean Ice Cream and Norweign electronic shop sponsorship here.

I’m talking about the drivers doing the PWRC, SWRC & JWRC (not that we have ever had the JWRC here in NZ).
Drivers like Toshi Arai, he’s been doing the PWRC for almost a decade, but carries very little sponsorship on his car. Where’s the finance coming from?
Then there is Nasser Al-Attiyah, he is doing something like 22 rallies this year.

With only limited TV coverage of the minor championships, I can’t imagine any sponsor coughing up with the millions it takes to do this.

Speaking to a team manager of one of the top NZ championship cars a few years ago, he told me it takes about NZ$120,000 (60,000 Euro) to do the six round NZ championship. That’s to pay for transport, accommodation for unpaid crew and drivers, meals, fuel, tyres and entry fees. That’s just the running cost, the car is on top of that, more if you crash.

Flying cars and parts in containers around the globe, having paid crew staying in hotels, paying your co-driver, buying or leasing top cars all adds up.

Where is all this cash coming from? Self made millionaires, rich Daddys, government funding???

Pons, Prokop, Toshi, Nasser, Sandell, Sousa, Brynildsen, Araujo, Grondal, Flodin, Linari etc.

Show me the money!

Please note: Pessimists need not reply to this thread.

[AndyRAC]

Good question!! Saying that, although the sums seems huge, in the grand scheme of world sport, they actually aren't. Compared to F1, it's loose change.

[N.O.T]

Where is all this cash coming from? Self made millionaires, rich Daddys



there you go....

[Francis44]

Bernardo Sousa is Rich Daddy, he's father is owner of a transport company I think.

[JFL]

Brynildsen is not from a wealthy family.. Not in this order anyway.. ;)

[Camelopard]

Apparently one of the team managers let slip to a tour group in NZ the yearly budgets for various teams.

He said 28 million euros for citroen (junior team also?),

24 million euros for Ford, (as above I presume it includes that covers Stobbart as well)

and 4 million euros for Petter.

Sound about right?

[6789]

Apparently one of the team managers let slip to a tour group in NZ the yearly budgets for various teams.

He said 28 million euros for citroen (junior team also?),

24 million euros for Ford, (as above I presume it includes that covers Stobbart as well)

and 4 million euros for Petter.

Sound about right?
I was there, he was talking pretty generally but Petter has the budget of 1/5 of Ford and 1/7 of Citroen.. I think thats what he said.. I'm pretty sure my old man would have it recorded on his hd video camera. I too think it included the semi works team

[Camelopard]

I was there, he was talking pretty generally but Petter has the budget of 1/5 of Ford and 1/7 of Citroen.. I think thats what he said.. I'm pretty sure my old man would have it recorded on his hd video camera. I too think it included the semi works team

Thanks for that, I was going on what my friend told me, so in fact the Ford budget might actually be only 20 million euros which would be possibly 8 million euros less than citroens, presuming of course that Petter's team budget is 4 million.

Next time I see my friend I'll ask him again.

[Langdale Forest]

Bernardo Sousa is Rich Daddy, he's father is owner of a transport company I think.

Future WRC champion Conrad Rautencrash's dad owns a diamond mine i think....

[grugsticles]

Future WRC champion Conrad Rautencrash's dad owns a diamond mine i think....
ROFL!!!

Its interesting about the money being mentioned here. Its under 30 million euros for a full WRC drive, where as a few years ago Subaru's budget was 50 million euros total. That is from the Engineering The World Rally series on TV.
I know the value of the Euro has changed but it just goes to show how bloody HUGE the marketing budget of a car manufacturer is on a global scale.

[Mitch555]

Future WRC champion Conrad Rautencrash's dad owns a diamond mine i think....

Yeah you're sort of on the right track. He does some mining...


Billy Rautenbach, also known as Muller Conrad Rautenbach (born 23 September 1959), is a multimillionaire Zimbabwean businessman. He is known for his aggressive business tactics and is known to have close links to ZANU-PF and the regime of Robert Mugabe. Before he was 40, Rautenbach's business empire had spread in more than a dozen African countries even as far afield as Australia and Europe earning him the nickname "Napoleon of Africa". Rautenbach is currently on a travel ban list in both the European Union and United States. He was added to the EU blacklist in January 2008, and the US blacklist towards the end of 2008 for his alleged involvement with the Mugabe regime. It is alleged he has aided Robert Mugabe’s regime financially, regardless of current international sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe to limit Robert Mugabe’s grip of power. A noticeable proportion of the funds made available to Robert Mugabe were used to pay his security forces help keep him in power. Mugabe, grateful for financial support often returned the favour to Rautenbach and similar financiers in exchange for dubious and lucrative drilling and mining deals with companies based in countries such as the British Virgin Islands, the Cook Islands and so on, both of which could be seen as having a lack of regulation in place therefore making it easier to transfer funds to Zimbabwe. He currently owns the Volvo franchise in Zimbabwe, the country's largest freight company and vast tracts of agricultural land, which includes land used for crocodile rearing. Rautenbach was wanted in South Africa where he faced hundreds of charges of alleged fraud, corruption and other crimes including his connection with his own South African company named Wheels of Africa Group in the 1990s. The group, which was the distributor for Korean car firm Hyundai in South Africa and Botswana, was liquidated in December 1999. At that time, he had property worth millions seized from him. These include a farm in the Western Cape worth more than R30 million, hunting safaris, a falcon executive jet, a bell 407 helicopter and a yacht, which have since been returned to him. The charges against Rautenbach include the theft of 1,300 cars from Hyundai, bribing customs officials and fraudulently reducing the tax liability of Wheels of Africa's subsidiaries. He fled South Africa in 1999 after justice department investigators raided his office and home. In 2009, he reached a bargain plea with the South African authorities to pay a fine of 40 million rand.

Of course this is Wikipedia, thus it isn't a totally reliable source. Especially considering he is claimed to have stolen 1,300 Hyundais. Ok Hyundai is getting better, but 1,300 of them!

Toshi Arai has been a Subaru stalwart for a long time, we might have seen similar by Possum Bourne perhaps if he was still alive. Though most seem to have some major sponsor on their cars. And a lot of it would be self funded.

Where do the Netherlands guys get their money from? Kuipers etc. and the Irish? As they run (or ran in Irelands case) a lot of top WRC cars in their national championships

[Daniel]

Yeah you're sort of on the right track. He does some mining...



Of course this is Wikipedia, thus it isn't a totally reliable source. Especially considering he is claimed to have stolen 1,300 Hyundais. Ok Hyundai is getting better, but 1,300 of them!

Toshi Arai has been a Subaru stalwart for a long time, we might have seen similar by Possum Bourne perhaps if he was still alive. Though most seem to have some major sponsor on their cars. And a lot of it would be self funded.

Where do the Netherlands guys get their money from? Kuipers etc. and the Irish? As they run (or ran in Irelands case) a lot of top WRC cars in their national championships
There are PLENTY of reliable sources for ALL of that information.

Sadly some of the cold hearted people on this forum simply don't care where the money comes from as long as some talentless hack has the funds to clumsily thread their car through (and sometimes into) the scenery :rolleyes:

[janvanvurpa]

There are PLENTY of reliable sources for ALL of that information.

Sadly some of the cold hearted people on this forum simply don't care where the money comes from as long as some talentless hack has the funds to clumsily thread their car through (and sometimes into) the scenery :rolleyes:

So you don't love Blockie?
Didn't you bother to read his "Press release" when the deal for him buying his ride was announced?
If you'd bothered to read it he said right there "This is one of the most significant deals in WRC History"

And all you need to do is look at http://www.specialstage.com/forums and there you'll see that Kenny and Travesty Pastrami are "rally Gods" and "Rally Superstars".
Says so right there.
I think you just don't undertand....

(wink wink, nudge nudge)

Truth is I really don't what to do about the "World rally car" rules which allows these 99.8% hand built specials which cost so much vs the straight GpA rules which,of course insane expensive in their day for works cars STILL were at least AVAILABLE enough that even a schmuck like me---a one man shop making rally suspension and building motors, can afford to have a OK spec motor making all the power I need reliably...

If the costs are that high as they are (like GBP1800 for a PAIR of halfshafts, or 320 squids for a alloy brake hat---come on I make those, they don't cost 320 squids---) then somebody has to pay and so the ability to raise money to throw away for nothing becomes paramount.

It's a shame...

[Daniel]

So you don't love Blockie?
Didn't you bother to read his "Press release" when the deal for him buying his ride was announced?
If you'd bothered to read it he said right there "This is one of the most significant deals in WRC History"

And all you need to do is look at http://www.specialstage.com/forums and there you'll see that Kenny and Travesty Pastrami are "rally Gods" and "Rally Superstars".
Says so right there.
I think you just don't undertand....

(wink wink, nudge nudge)

Truth is I really don't what to do about the "World rally car" rules which allows these 99.8% hand built specials which cost so much vs the straight GpA rules which,of course insane expensive in their day for works cars STILL were at least AVAILABLE enough that even a schmuck like me---a one man shop making rally suspension and building motors, can afford to have a OK spec motor making all the power I need reliably...

If the costs are that high as they are (like GBP1800 for a PAIR of halfshafts, or 320 squids for a alloy brake hat---come on I make those, they don't cost 320 squids---) then somebody has to pay and so the ability to raise money to throw away for nothing becomes paramount.

It's a shame...
At least Block has to the best of my knowledge earnt his money legitimately. I may not respect Block as a driver but at least as a businessman he's not neck and neck with Hitler in terms of morals.

[janvanvurpa]

At least Block has to the best of my knowledge earnt his money legitimately. I may not respect Block as a driver but at least as a businessman he's not neck and neck with Hitler in terms of morals.

Well if we start thinking about "morals" I can suggest that making millions on what are really insanely cheap shoes made GAWD KNOWS WHERE bu who knows what getting paid we have no idea and then sold for absurd inflated prices to gets too stupid to NOT BUY THE HYPE is the essence of the moral dilemma of the modern consumer capitalist world economy.
Hype hype hype a cheap thing costing pennies and sell it for LOTS to weak minded kids and make millions...


I dunno.

Of course it's not as repulsive and disgusting as the dealings of Rautenbach's daddy, but man everything down that part of the world seems to be drenched in blood and lies and just power....but I find modern ultra hype junk (where the central thing is not the product---skate board shoes or the man himself selling his "persona") repugnant.

I imagine its somewhat confusing for him himself but seesm the solution is to not to think about morals...just make a You-tube video...

[Daniel]

Well if we start thinking about "morals" I can suggest that making millions on what are really insanely cheap shoes made GAWD KNOWS WHERE bu who knows what getting paid we have no idea and then sold for absurd inflated prices to gets too stupid to NOT BUY THE HYPE is the essence of the moral dilemma of the modern consumer capitalist world economy.
Hype hype hype a cheap thing costing pennies and sell it for LOTS to weak minded kids and make millions...


I dunno.

Of course it's not as repulsive and disgusting as the dealings of Rautenbach's daddy, but man everything down that part of the world seems to be drenched in blood and lies and just power....but I find modern ultra hype junk (where the central thing is not the product---skate board shoes or the man himself selling his "persona") repugnant.

I imagine its somewhat confusing for him himself but seesm the solution is to not to think about morals...just make a You-tube video...
Given a choice between Ken or Billy as a backer I know who I'd take.....

Renting a car from M-Sport for a WRC round will cost you around 150.000Euros all included, for that you get a customer car. If you want a factory spec car then you need to be someone "special" and then it will cost you over 200.000Euro. "Special someones" in the past have included all Jouhki drivers, Wilslow, Tuohino, duval when privately entered.

The difference between the factory specification car and the customer car can vary depending on a number of factors. Top spec cars will have all the titanium parts which can easily add up to being 100kg lighter than customer spec which use steel. We are mainly talking about suspension parts, cross members etc.. Also thinner windscreens and aluminum bonnets will make a difference. people who doubt this should check the difference in weights between the 2 during scrutineering when the cars are empty. a difference of 100kg can have an impact of 1 sec/km on average.

Next thing is power. Top cars have in reality around 360 HP and customer cars will lack anything up to 40HP. It is very hard to see or hear the difference in power on turbochaged cars because the initial kick is always there. The difference is at the high end of the RPM's when some will run out of breath as they get to the REV limiter and others keep going to REV limiter much faster.

After this comes shock absorbers and setups but its another long story....

Hope this gives a little insight to the very intricate world of WRC.

[Daniel]

Renting a car from M-Sport for a WRC round will cost you around 150.000Euros all included, for that you get a customer car. If you want a factory spec car then you need to be someone "special" and then it will cost you over 200.000Euro. "Special someones" in the past have included all Jouhki drivers, Wilslow, Tuohino, duval when privately entered.

The difference between the factory specification car and the customer car can vary depending on a number of factors. Top spec cars will have all the titanium parts which can easily add up to being 100kg lighter than customer spec which use steel. We are mainly talking about suspension parts, cross members etc.. Also thinner windscreens and aluminum bonnets will make a difference. people who doubt this should check the difference in weights between the 2 during scrutineering when the cars are empty. a difference of 100kg can have an impact of 1 sec/km on average.

Next thing is power. Top cars have in reality around 360 HP and customer cars will lack anything up to 40HP. It is very hard to see or hear the difference in power on turbochaged cars because the initial kick is always there. The difference is at the high end of the RPM's when some will run out of breath as they get to the REV limiter and others keep going to REV limiter much faster.

After this comes shock absorbers and setups but its another long story....

Hope this gives a little insight to the very intricate world of WRC.
The only people who wouldn't agree with you are either stupid or just plain ignorant :) Most people here are generally quite aware of the differences between a top car and a car which is being run for a privateer :)

[AndyRAC]

The only people who wouldn't agree with you are either stupid or just plain ignorant :) Most people here are generally quite aware of the differences between a top car and a car which is being run for a privateer :)

And don't forget testing! Pretty important, something Privateers don't get a lot of.

[Josti]

Where do the Netherlands guys get their money from? Kuipers etc.

Van Merksteijn Sr. owns a big steel company. I know that Kuipers sold his company for many many millions some years ago. Van Eldik is also a successful businessman.

And don't forget testing! Pretty important, something Privateers don't get a lot of.

Yes, I forgot that. It is hard for Petter to Test, for example because he has to use his rally car, and a rebuild after 120km gravel test in portugal, for example can cost anything in between 20.000 and 40.000Euros depending on how many parts you damaged.
The costs are huge and in the end it comes down to about 320Euros per stage kilometer driven for a WRC car on rough gravel.

M-Sport have a good business going on, and a good chunk of the budget of the official team comes from the profits of customer cars running around. new parts like for engine, gearbox, diffs, etc, are first fitted on official cars for maximum reliability. After one rally they are stripped, cleaned and fixed if need be then fitted on customer cars ready to be sold as "new" for clients. Those parts will then be used, rebuilt, charged money for rebuild, re-used, re-re-built, then re-charged until they brake and so on...

So one single shock absorber will not only earn M-Sport 12.000Euros when they sell it, but countless of Euros for every rebuild after that...