This is it

[ioan]

From now on I do not support this Ferrari team.
It has been coming for some time but today their inability to accept that they were not up to the game and complain about a perfectly legal move was the last drop and I can not support such a charade.

So, no more favorite team for me, it's Massa, MS and Vettel from now on.

[fandango]

Eh, okay, thanks for opening a thread to clarify that. What do we say? Should I move your name to a different column in my alliances spreadsheet?

[ioan]

Eh, okay, thanks for opening a thread to clarify that. What do we say? Should I move your name to a different column in my alliances spreadsheet?

It's just to make it clear that I shall not be treated as a tifoso anymore as I do not support these muppets anymore for the above reasons. You don't need to say anything.

[Tazio]

From now on I do not support this Ferrari team.
It has been coming for some time but today their inability to accept that they were not up to the game and complain about a perfectly legal move was the last drop and I can not support such a charade.

So, no more favorite team for me, it's Massa, MS and Vettel from now on.Ba Bye :)

[markabilly]

Oh this:
Nobody but the stupid FIA....

Michael Schumacher has been handed a 20-second penalty for having overtaken Fernando Alonso on the final corner of the Monaco Grand Prix.

[ioan]

Oh this:
Nobody but the stupid FIA....

Michael Schumacher has been handed a 20-second penalty for having overtaken Fernando Alonso on the final corner of the Monaco Grand Prix.

That should read:



Michael Schumacher has been handed a 20-second penalty for having overtaken Fernando Alonso on the final corner of the Monaco Grand Prix under full green course conditions!

[fandango]

It's just to make it clear that I shall not be treated as a tifoso anymore as I do not support these muppets anymore for the above reasons. You don't need to say anything.

I'm just poking fun. In fact, I agree that Schumacher was right to pass. It's a case of the red car rule, I think. It's nothing new in F1.

[markabilly]

I could see MS being required to give back one spot to fred, but 20 seconds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

geeass

[UltimateDanGTR]

well done Ioan, Ferrari's handling of the last corner situation today was rather pathetic IMO.

now then, fancy supporting Mclaren? :p

[ioan]

now then, fancy supporting Mclaren? :p

No favorite team from now, it's new for me but hey there's always a first time for everything.

[Tazio]

http://adamcooperf1.com/2010/05/16/penalty-drops-schumacher-out-of-points/

The truth goes marching on!
bump bump bump bumptrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrump bump

Glory glory haleiluia glory glory haleiluia glory glory haleiluia
The truth goes marching on.
Mine eyes have seen mike getting a beat down by fred driving all the way through the field
And with general U.S. Massa complete the thorough as whippin of Ross's rebel Mercs'
Next will meet in turkey for a little humble pie
The truth goes marching on!

[UltimateDanGTR]

No favorite team from now, it's new for me but hey there's always a first time for everything.

well, I was drawn to supporting mclaren because my favourite driver when i first got into the sport drove for them back in the day (Senna).

But, not supporting a team does have it's advantages, like not having to worry about who wins the constructors championship.

then again, the lure of schumacher might take you somewhere german....

[TMorel]

Ioan, I'm really enjoying this season as I don't have any vested interest (positive nor negative) with any of the teams or drivers so I can just appreciate the racing. I hope you get an equal silver lining too (silver lining, not silver arrow)

[Saint Devote]

Never understood the team supporting thing to begin with.

I think Massa has always been a delicate little cry baby and without Smedley becomes a quivering little child. Cant see him at Ferrari in 2011 - his time is done.

The issue is I think is that the pass is only valid once past the start finish line and that the lights were green for THAT lap and the move was just classical Schumi.

The twenty second penalty is disagreeable - giving back the place is enough.

[steveaki13]

I think this decision reflects badly on F1 and Ferrari.

I think most of the fans thought it was a great and opportunistic move, and if the fans love it then it should stand as long as its safe.

I think they now have to change that rule or just let the SC cross the line.

I think its poor from Ferrari today.

Overall though it does not diminish in my mind a great move from Michael, and still proves he's got his race craft.

GREAT MOVE MICHAEL.

[Tazio]

Hail Caesar

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/2006102
elpepudep_/XLCO/Ies/Fernando_Alonso_recibe_calor_Oviedo.jpg

[ioan]

The issue is I think is that the pass is only valid once past the start finish line and that the lights were green for THAT lap and the move was just classical Schumi.

The rules were changed for this season and it is OK to overtake after the SC line (this is new this year) which you can see on the track after Rascasse in this case.

Anyway green lights mean something in F1 and that is not SC situation.

[ioan]

Ioan, I'm really enjoying this season as I don't have any vested interest (positive nor negative) with any of the teams or drivers so I can just appreciate the racing. I hope you get an equal silver lining too (silver lining, not silver arrow)

I will still support 3 drivers from different teams so it will be difficult to be in the same position as you are, but sure as hell it will be easier without having to support Domenicali and his bunch of muppets.

I have been feeling sick with them since the moment they pushed out MS, then they refused Brawn when he wanted to come back after his sabbatical year and to end it all they gave the boot to Todt.
Then it came 2008 with all the idiotic mistakes and 2009 with a terrible car and having Baddoer drive for them at the back of the field just because he is Italian.
Too much mediocrity to be taken and supported.

Another positive aspect is that I will not have to try to support Alonso either.
And if they chose to give up on Massa for Kubica then even better as i won't have to support any of their drivers anymore.

[Saint Devote]

The rules were changed for this season and it is OK to overtake after the SC line (this is new this year) which you can see on the track after Rascasse in this case.

Anyway green lights mean something in F1 and that is not SC situation.

Okay.

I think Alonso was just caught napping - but then any driver can be forgiven when coming up against Schumi - he is not an ordinary driver and none of the current crop will be happy when he outsmarts them.

Makes me wonder just what Schumi would have done this year in a RB06.

[donKey jote]

well well whodathunkit !
ioan throwing a tantrum about Fia/Ferrari, from the other side :vader: :eek: :laugh:

[ioan]

Okay.

I think Alonso was just caught napping - but then any driver can be forgiven when coming up against Schumi - he is not an ordinary driver and none of the current crop will be happy when he outsmarts them.

Makes me wonder just what Schumi would have done this year in a RB06.

He would have slowly but surely been at the top of the classifications. He's been a bit slow at the start but he's up there again now and he is making no mistakes and taking no prisoners, unlike the others around him.

[Powered by Cosworth]

Under rule 40.13, which states that "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

So Schumacher actually did break a rule then, and the incident was being investigated before Ferrari could even cry about it.

Don't see what the problem is.

(Maybe Damon just wanted one little bit of revenge :p : )

[ioan]

So Schumacher actually did break a rule then, and the incident was being investigated before Ferrari could even cry about it.

Don't see what the problem is.

(Maybe Damon just wanted one little bit of revenge :p : )

Green flags and lights were on, that means free to race.
How can you penalize a driver for racing when given a green light?!

But they do not mention the green light and flags in any of the FIA releases, in a try to hide their incompetence while blaming it all on Schumacher. And judging by your post they are doing quite well with their diversionary game.

[jens]

I remember last year Kimi fans were criticized for not being "true tifosi" and loyal supporters of the team. Now I can see that an MS fan has alienated from the red team as well. :) Who's next?

But yeah, throughout years I have discovered by myself as well that it is easier to consistently follow drivers. The reason for this is that the driver is still the same person throughout his career, but teams keep changing all the time - new personnel, as a result a bit of a different character, not to mention changes in ownership. As a result a support towards a team does fluctuate depending on who are actually working for that team - meaning that the image of a team is also dependent on individual characters. A driver is something very human and understandable, team is just a huge organization, who is largely unknown to the public.

[e2mtt]

I loved that pass. If there is an ruthless & arrogant world champion that I really dislike, it would have to be Fernando Alonso. Michael Schumacher is just ruthless & that good.

However, rules are rules. This isn't the first time I've been upset by F1's penalty seconds after the race, rather then just taking away a position.

[ioan]

I was expecting to open this thread and find Damon Hill being pulled over the coals for handing Schuey a penalty lol... Only joking :p

Hill was only the 4th 'steward' out of a panel of 3. He was only there to help them in case an accident needs to be investigated during the race as he can give the opinion of a driver as to who is wrong or right.

The FIA, Whiting and the 3 monkeys are responsible for this ridiculous penalty for racing under full course greens.

And Ferrari for pushing for and accepting this crap.



Ioan, this must be serious as no tifosi would throw in the towel unless they felt so strongly. Maybe you'll be a Red Bull fan next season if Massa swaps with Webber? :)

No thanks, all the teams are pretty much the same only at different scales.

I still have a weakness for the classic and sublime Ferrari race cars and for the times when they were a serious racing organization but I just can't support anymore this bunch of opportunistic muppets clothed in red.

[Sonic]

Welcome to the dark side Ioan ;)

Merc are going to be appealing the rule (but not the penalty) as it does seem that the two rules contradict one another. Its all a bit silly really as Schu was really switched on today.

[Bagwan]

Ioan , my friend , I do not understand your logic here .

I know that you've been losing faith in the red management for some time , and for good reason , in my opinion as well , but , as I said , I do not follow your disappointment here .

I think you are perhaps mis-placing your anger .

Should the team you have supported through thick and thin for so long , when points were there for the taking , no matter why , have just sat back and said they would not argue because it would not be "sporting " to do so ?
Should they have lost those points to Schumacher because he used to drive for them ?

If they have any chance at any points , why not take it ? Would it not be stupidly foolish , in the realm of some of the other cock-ups in recent times , to not protest , especially seeing as it seems to have worked ?

I have seen it said here that , because the green flags shown when seemingly the pit straight was still technically under yellow/SC conditions , that Michael should either be left the position or simply moved back behind Alonso ,because it was not his fault those flags were shown .

The other side of the coin is that it could also be said that Alonso was also victim of this flag waving , too , and to penalize him by not at least giving back the place would clearly , by the same logic , be wrong .

How can you be mad with them about this ?


The one thing I wonder about is what would have transpired , had the issue that required the safety car happened on the start/finish straight , or just past Ste Devote .

[Rollo]

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 2-2010.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/65EE8F15945D0941C12576C7005308AE/$FILE/1-2010%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2010-02-2010.pdf)
40.7
With the following exceptions, overtaking is forbidden until the cars reach the first safety car line after the safety car has returned to the pits.

That first safety car line is the finish line at Monaco. Schumacher wasn't allowed to overtake anyone until after he had crossed that line.

The FIA have applied the law correctly.

[F1boat]

Useless decision by the stewards - maybe by Damon Hill? It is pathetic, however.

[Big Ben]

Rumor is LdM heard about this thread and FA is on his way out. Ferrari cannot afford to lose another fairweather fan. When it happens you'll know why.

Good job FIA. Perhaps Ioan you should enlighten us when the safety car is out on the last lap when when does race finish under the safety car and when it doesn´t? The cheat can´t help himself, can he? Let the insults begin.

[ioan]

Ioan , my friend , I do not understand your logic here .

I know that you've been losing faith in the red management for some time , and for good reason , in my opinion as well , but , as I said , I do not follow your disappointment here .

I think you are perhaps mis-placing your anger .

Should the team you have supported through thick and thin for so long , when points were there for the taking , no matter why , have just sat back and said they would not argue because it would not be "sporting " to do so ?
Should they have lost those points to Schumacher because he used to drive for them ?

If they have any chance at any points , why not take it ? Would it not be stupidly foolish , in the realm of some of the other cock-ups in recent times , to not protest , especially seeing as it seems to have worked ?

I have seen it said here that , because the green flags shown when seemingly the pit straight was still technically under yellow/SC conditions , that Michael should either be left the position or simply moved back behind Alonso ,because it was not his fault those flags were shown .

The other side of the coin is that it could also be said that Alonso was also victim of this flag waving , too , and to penalize him by not at least giving back the place would clearly , by the same logic , be wrong .

How can you be mad with them about this ?


The one thing I wonder about is what would have transpired , had the issue that required the safety car happened on the start/finish straight , or just past Ste Devote .


Baggy, I have lost faith in them back in 2008 and bared with them most probably because the last drop was not in yet and I was hopping that they might come to their senses again one day.

Yesterday there was the Ferrari press release where Dyer talks about how MS drove from last to 5th in 2006, but they just call him someone. Someone being the driver who won them countless races and championships.

Brawn has declared that Ferrari went as far as implying that MS did overtake under yellows when it was obvious to everyone that it was green. They were also very sure that MS will be penalized well before anything had been announced.

There is a limit to everything and I just had enough of these F1 politics. I feel that I can not support a bunch of people swimming in mediocrity for years and who believe that unsporting means will win them titles. They should be out there outsmarting the opposition on the track not behind closed doors.

For now I'll keep cheering for Felipe, Michael and Seb, and if things go downhill even more with other stupid rules and rulings I'll give up watching this entertainment and watch something more technically challenging like the Le Mans series.

[ioan]

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/65EE8F15945D0941C12576C7005308AE/$FILE/1-2010%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2010-02-2010.pdf
40.7
With the following exceptions, overtaking is forbidden until the cars reach the first safety car line after the safety car has returned to the pits.

That first safety car line is the finish line at Monaco. Schumacher wasn't allowed to overtake anyone until after he had crossed that line.

The FIA have applied the law correctly.

Not going to let this false info go on, some might even believe it.
The safety car line is not the finish line at Monaco, it is after Rascasse where the pit road starts.

[ioan]

Rumor is LdM heard about this thread and FA is on his way out. Ferrari cannot afford to lose another fairweather fan. When it happens you'll know why.

Good job FIA. Perhaps Ioan you should enlighten us when the safety car is out on the last lap when when does race finish under the safety car and when it doesn´t? The cheat can´t help himself, can he? Let the insults begin.

Whatever floats your raft, as it is clearly built on hate.

[Big Ben]

Whatever floats your raft, as it is clearly built on hate.

No. Really. It´s the last lap. The safety car is out. When does the race finish under the safety car and when it doesn´t? And appealing a little to pure logic... why would it end sometimes under the safety car and sometimes not?

[Hawkmoon]

ioan, my friend, your wrong on this one. While Schumacher did indeed pass after the safety car line which would appear to be legal the rule states that on the last lap the cars aren't allowed to pass on the run to the flag. The stewards correctly applied the rule. Your anger should be directed at the FIA for having a stupid rule.

Ferrari are blameless here. Other than Alonso saying the team told him not to pass Hamilton and being sure that Schumi would be penalised I've not read any comment that Ferrari have made on the matter.

[ioan]

No. Really. It´s the last lap. The safety car is out. When does the race finish under the safety car and when it doesn´t? And appealing a little to pure logic... why would it end sometimes under the safety car and sometimes not?

When does the safety car period end before or after the green flags are waived?

[ioan]

ioan, my friend, your wrong on this one. While Schumacher did indeed pass after the safety car line which would appear to be legal the rule states that on the last lap the cars aren't allowed to pass on the run to the flag. The stewards correctly applied the rule. Your anger should be directed at the FIA for having a stupid rule.

Ferrari are blameless here. Other than Alonso saying the team told him not to pass Hamilton and being sure that Schumi would be penalised I've not read any comment that Ferrari have made on the matter.

Maybe I am wrong, but I had this feeling coming for some time and I just don't feel like supporting the bunch that call themselves Ferrari F1 right now. They are not representative for what Ferrari means to me. Too much corporate talk and way to little racing spirit, IMHO.

Maybe one day I will feel like supporting them again, however that will not be with some of the guys that are at the top right now.

As for the FIA, there is nothing positive I could say about them, their stupid rules and the muppets that run the show for them.

[airshifter]

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.


I think the regulation makes it a fairly open and closed case. That being said, it is complete stupidity on the part of the FIA to have green lights when in fact their rules states that they are for all practical purposes under yellow flag conditions.

If the rule was clear to all the teams I'm sure they would have reminded drivers not to make any pass attempts.

IMHO the actions of a green light yet no overtaking allowed are the primary screw up, as drivers have for years relied on the light system and it's somewhat instinctual for them to use it.

I think they should take the position back, as the rule is stated. But the penalty they added is out of line IMHO.

[Triumph]

Green flags and lights were on, that means free to race.
How can you penalize a driver for racing when given a green light?!


Yes, I think the evidence that Ross Brawn showed during the interview after the race left no doubt as to the situation.

The only thing that I'm a little unclear on is that fact that what actually happened (green light etc) contradicts the wording of the quoted Article 40.13:

(Copied from BBC F1 site) 'If the race ends while the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.'

So if the FIA are contradicting their own rules and misleading the teams and drivers into thinking that the race is back on (green light), then any penalty for Michael should be to simply put him back one place where he would have been if the FIA didn't cause this confusion in the first place. Michael did nothing wrong at all. It's the FIA that were wrong. They're wrong for contradicting themselves and causing confusion, and they're wrong in handing out a penalty that does anything more than put Michael back one place.

This looks like a repeat of the nonsense that Lewis had to go through in the FIA's thinly-veiled quest to stop him winning the world championship in 2008. Hmmm, I've just realized which team benefitted back then, and of course now.

[Rollo]

Not going to let this false info go on, some might even believe it.
The safety car line is not the finish line at Monaco, it is after Rascasse where the pit road starts.

http://fialive.fiacommunications.com/en-GB/sport/championships/f1/Documents/2010-f1-lap-info.pdf

The start line offset at Monaco is 0.000km. All three lines coincide. If you think that this is "false" I dare you to prove otherwise.

[markabilly]

http://fialive.fiacommunications.com/en-GB/sport/championships/f1/Documents/2010-f1-lap-info.pdf

The start line offset at Monaco is 0.000km. All three lines coincide. If you think that this is "false" I dare you to prove otherwise.
okay let me think, where in the document does it say "safety car line"


and the other choice is to beleive ross brawn:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQerOq_7DcA

Ross Brawn defending move. Nice pictures
no brainer
i believe ross this time


or if you want to see the line line and how hard all the cars were accelerating on it--Indeed hamilton was GONE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qQNp1h2s6g&feature=player_embedded

look fast it will probably be gone

goodnight

[CNR]

No favorite team from now, it's new for me but hey there's always a first time for everything.

you can have a 3 car dream team :burnout:

[Roamy]

From now on I do not support this Ferrari team.
It has been coming for some time but today their inability to accept that they were not up to the game and complain about a perfectly legal move was the last drop and I can not support such a charade.

So, no more favorite team for me, it's Massa, MS and Vettel from now on.


I talked to my guys at Ferrari and they said "if you can stand to leave us we can stand to watch you go" Viva Ferrari Viva Alonso

[CNR]

even bbc were saying that mark could be overtaken after the safty car pulled in on the last lap

Q: why green flag instead of yellow flag

[Roamy]

I think in the coming days the rules will become clear for you guys !!

[Ari]

From now on I do not support this Ferrari team.
It has been coming for some time but today their inability to accept that they were not up to the game and complain about a perfectly legal move was the last drop and I can not support such a charade.

So, no more favorite team for me, it's Massa, MS and Vettel from now on.

You know what.... I'm a huge Ferrari fan too but I am also extremely upset with what happened to Schumy. Very, very disappointing.

Ferrari is not what it was.... nowhere near it in fact. Sigh.

[i_max2k2]

Agreed, I was a Ferrari fan, till last year, when they had Kimi & Massa, and I'm a Massa Fan as well, but more so I have been Fan of Schumi since I ever started watching F1, and for the time being its Mercedes, I see their team as very much in the same shape as in the Todt, Brawn, Schumi era. The case with Michael was handled poorly by FIA, and I hope they can atleast get him back his 7th position. But with the green lights and that brillant move he deserves the 6th position.

[race_director]

From now on I do not support this Ferrari team.
It has been coming for some time but today their inability to accept that they were not up to the game and complain about a perfectly legal move was the last drop and I can not support such a charade.

So, no more favorite team for me, it's Massa, MS and Vettel from now on.

IOAN giving up on ferrari , heads gonna roll today in maranello. for sure :)

[markabilly]

IOAN giving up on ferrari , heads gonna roll today in maranello. for sure :)
hope they start with the hyena named luca m

long overdue

[Valve Bounce]

From now on I do not support this Ferrari team.
It has been coming for some time but today their inability to accept that they were not up to the game and complain about a perfectly legal move was the last drop and I can not support such a charade.

So, no more favorite team for me, it's Massa, MS and Vettel from now on.


I am stunned; nay, mortified. I am not even aware that Tifosi can change their blood type from Ferrari red to anything else, and if they traveled in many parts of the world, they had to bring along their own blood supplies from Maranello, just in case they have an accident and need a transfusion.

This is something new to me and must be from some weird scientific development under the auspices of St. D.

[IceWizard]

I'm no Schumacher fan, but this seems like a bad decision. What is the point of bringing the Safety Car in and introducing the new rule about the safety car line if the cars then aren't allowed to race? A 20 second penalty seems a bit harsh given the apparent ambiguity - not one of the BBC pundits thought that Schumacher had done anything wrong!

In fact, having seen the replay again, why are green flags waving if no overtaking is allowed? Yellows should be waved all the way back to the finish line if racing is not permitted.

[harsha]

some heads are gonna roll :D :D :D

[race_director]

some heads are gonna roll :D :D :D

Has Luca called the board meeting yet.?

[gloomyDAY]

Traitor. :p

[F1boat]

Has Luca called the board meeting yet.?

In the glorious style of the FIA, I have to say that on June 25th I will decide whether continue supporting Ferrari or no LOL.

[Big Ben]

In the glorious style of the FIA, I have to say that on June 25th I will decide whether continue supporting Ferrari or no LOL.

I would love to say that all these Schumi fanboys got a taste of their own medicine... biased decision by FIA favoring the reds but it's actually the Schumi that broke the rules.... People would stop supporting them because they don't win everything anymore? you people know this is a sport, right? rules should not be bent to improve the show and grow the myth of the super hero Schumi.

Seeing the safety car entering the 78th lap I knew that race was over, however Schumi and Brawn didn't. And how about that Brawn. How well does he explain doesn't he? We should believe him. He's kind of an expert in loopholes... expert in spotting them and especially in creating them. Ask Flavio he knows more details.



that brillant move he deserves the 6th position.

That's a brilliant move nowadays?


When does the safety car period end before or after the green flags are waived?

the rule is clear. if the race finishes under the safety car no more passes. i don't how could a race finish more clearly under the safety car. they could wave the romanian flag... it's the last lap. the safety car is on the track. it's over. you know very well that if things had been the other way around you would have been screaming for FA to be banned from f1. the day you will admit the most controversial driver of the last couple of decades did something wrong is still to come.

They won 2 wcc and 1 wdc in 3 years compared to bubkis in the last 2 seasons with Schumi onboard. How pathetic is that? The only year they didn't win anything was the year when they, like many others, were fooled by Brawn and his buddies that the new rules were created to reduce downforce.

BTW w(hy)tf do we keep discussing Ioan feelings here? No more free counseling. Ba'bye.

[Shalafi]

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1956088064/tt1477715

[MrJan]

Did the SC turn the lights out? If he did then I'd say that the SC period was over and the rule about finishing under the SC is void. If the lights were still on then there is no argument (although marshals waiving green flags is particularly confusing).

I agree with Henners here, if the race is going to finish under the SC then just let him cross the line, don't both with all this BS about pitting but then the drivers not being allowed to race. All that happens is you end up with confusion like we have here.

For the record I don't think that it's the fault of Fiararri, just the dozy idiots who, time and again, introduce and apply a stupid set of rules.

[SGWilko]

When does the safety car period end before or after the green flags are waived?

I understand your obvious frustration, and indeed putting out the green flags, saying the SC is in this lap is largely irrelevane in any case, because of rule 40.13.

Regardless of whether Jim Carey is pulling funny faces behing Prince Albert, rule 40.13 was in application because the SC was out on the final lap, and because of that, the cars cannot overtake once the SC pulls in until they cross the finish line to end the race.

The green flags flags WERE incorrectly applied, but they have no bearing on the correct application of the rule in question.

[AndyRAC]

When is a green flag not a green flag??

Once again, F1 shoots itself spectacularly in the foot....

[Sonic]

When is a green flag not a green flag??



Perhaps every marshall at Monaco was red green colour blind? Or perhaps not.

[SGWilko]

When is a green flag not a green flag??

Once again, F1 shoots itself spectacularly in the foot....

The same time when a driver ignores a red flag (the Shoe this year to complete a lap????) or when drivers chose to ignore the yellows etc?

What goes around will, inevitably, come around.

[Ranger]

Look at the marshall. That is a green flag. The penalty is unjust.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_s_yb79FJz9E/S_CEJcr0NbI/AAAAAAAAAHU/Z_xw9pUpsOw/Monaco-2010-Finish-6.jpg

[SGWilko]

Look at the marshall. That is a green flag. The penalty is unjust.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_s_yb79FJz9E/S_CEJcr0NbI/AAAAAAAAAHU/Z_xw9pUpsOw/Monaco-2010-Finish-6.jpg

That marshall is, in fact, in a very dangerous position......

[MrJan]

Regardless of whether Jim Carey is pulling funny faces behing Prince Albert, rule 40.13 was in application because the SC was out on the final lap, and because of that, the cars cannot overtake once the SC pulls in until they cross the finish line to end the race.

But if the lights had gone out then the SC was actually in rather than still out. Rule 40.13 is about if the race is finishing under the SC. As the track was clear, the green flags out and the SC lights out it means that the SC period is over.

The problem here is that the rule makes little sense (what's the actual purpose of bringing in the SC, why not run it over the line?), isn't overly clear and the penalty given doesn't match that. THe way I see it is that the SC was coming in rather than finishing the race. As the rule is about 'finishing the race under the SC' it is irrelevant. In my mind (and indeed the mind of Schumacher, Mercedes and the majority of viewers) it was a fair pass.

Typical FIA bull**** in taking a stupid rule and applying it in a stupid way to limit the amount of racing that a driver is allowed to do.


That marshall is, in fact, in a very dangerous position......

Really?! Looks fine to me, he's absolutely miles from the racing line and still a long way from where Trulli ended up. If it was a fast entry to the corner then that could be dangerous but it'd be a bit of a freak accident for him to be injured there. Also he's only one step backwards away from being behind the barrier. Methinks you're being a bit melodramatic :p :

[wedge]

Stupid rules

Stupid application of the rules

[e2mtt]

The FIA has a lot of poorly thought out & worded rules that open things up to political interpretation. Maybe this is the way the French & Italian prefer it? :-)

Reminds me of when Kimi destroyed his car & red flagged & ended the race, and the FIA still gave the win to him (Instead of Fisi in a Jordan leading the race because Kimi was parked in a pile of rubble) because he had been leading on the last lap completed. They did correct that one.

[ArrowsFA1]

what's the actual purpose of bringing in the SC, why not run it over the line?

The reason the rule exists is simply because it looks better on television not to have the safety car crossing the line in front of the racing cars.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/05/why_schumacher_broke_the_rules.html

[AndyL]

http://fialive.fiacommunications.com/en-GB/sport/championships/f1/Documents/2010-f1-lap-info.pdf

The start line offset at Monaco is 0.000km. All three lines coincide. If you think that this is "false" I dare you to prove otherwise.

The start line offset is the difference between the start and finish lines. Nothing to do with the first safety car line.

[Firstgear]

So ioan finally confirms what we've all known - that he's a MS fan first and Ferrari fan second. Big deal - nice to see you've finally come out of the closet one this though.

As for the move - where's tinchote when you need him, with his "Stupid Rules = Stupid consaquences"

Well it may be a stupid rule, but until it's changed, we'll have to live with it. So I agree with the penalty.

[MrJan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/05/why_schumacher_broke_the_rules.html

So it doesn't really have much point other than to make TV look better? Seems stupid to me, it was always going to cause confusion at some point for what is actually a largely needless reason.

I still take the view that the safety car was in that lap, not that it was finishing the race. If there had been 5 more laps remaining then the SC would still have pitted that lap because the danger was cleared. The race didn't end under the safety car because there was no need for that car to be out. I think that MS has been quite hard done by, especially as all the other drivers treated that race as back on (Alonso, Lewis and Massa all got the tail out because they nailed the throttle out of Rascasse (sp?)

[ioan]

http://fialive.fiacommunications.com/en-GB/sport/championships/f1/Documents/2010-f1-lap-info.pdf

The start line offset at Monaco is 0.000km. All three lines coincide. If you think that this is "false" I dare you to prove otherwise.

:laugh:

I said the SC line is after Rascasse not the start finish line. Read before you jump on me.

[ioan]

You know what.... I'm a huge Ferrari fan too but I am also extremely upset with what happened to Schumy. Very, very disappointing.

Ferrari is not what it was.... nowhere near it in fact. Sigh.

I know. Many Ferrari fans feel the same nowadays, let down buy the team management.

[ioan]

I understand your obvious frustration, and indeed putting out the green flags, saying the SC is in this lap is largely irrelevane in any case, because of rule 40.13.

And why would be the rule 40.13 be above the other rules that say otherwise? because it suits someone's bias?

[ioan]

That marshall is, in fact, in a very dangerous position......

That doesn't change the color of the flag.

[SGWilko]

And why would be the rule 40.13 be above the other rules that say otherwise? because it suits someone's bias?

Nope, because the rule in question deals withthe final lap and the SC.

As it was on the final lap and the SC was out......................

[ioan]

Stupid rules

Stupid application of the rules

And stupid FIA.

[SGWilko]

That doesn't change the color of the flag.

Unless he had a can of spray paint, it wouldn't, would it.

The point I was suggesting is that it was obviously deemed safe to be standing on the track because of the SC rule meant no racing.......

[ioan]

As for the move - where's tinchote when you need him, with his "Stupid Rules = Stupid consaquences"

He was already disgusted and lost interest in F1 years ago. The FIA are alienating the fans and many teams don't care about this.

[Robinho]

Nope, because the rule in question deals withthe final lap and the SC.

As it was on the final lap and the SC was out......................

no, i disagree, the rule deals with the race finishing under Safety car conditions when the Safety car starts the final lap.

if the obstruction was not cleared the race would have finsished under SC conditions, and the rule would have allowed for the SC to take to the pits and the cars to cross the line on their own, but under SC conditions, ie. not racing.

if the obstruction is cleared the SC rules allow for the car to come in and the track to become green again and the cars can race.

i don't think the rule explicitly states that if the SC starts the final lap then the race must finish under SC conditions (if it does then i accept the decision, but still think its ridiculous and mistakes were made with the green flags). it only states what happens if the race is to finish under SC and the SC has started the final lap.

it doesn't say the race cannot be restarted on the final lap, which by the actions of Race control and marshalls (Safety car in this lap, change to green lights and flags, no SC boards) it was clear what the intention of the race directirs was, but the rule is ambiguous enough that they had to backtrack in the face of the teams protests.

at worst they should admit a cock up and maybe reverse the positions to uphold the rule but not penalise Michael

[ioan]

... it was clear what the intention of the race directirs was, but the rule is ambiguous enough that they had to backtrack in the face of the teams protests.

You mean the team's protests?!

[markabilly]

once again read the rule

'if the race ends while the SC is deployed', but they said sc in ---not deployed---turned off the sc indicator shown to pits and drivers, pulled the sc signs, turned off the safety car lights, waved the green flags and flashed the green lights.

when the cars cross the start finish line, the race ends, and the safety car is not deployed.

now if the signs remain out for the sc, the lights are not flashing green, but are yellow, the signal to pits and everyone is or remains that the SC deployed, then all is kaput for da schuie

indeed if just one of those things were still showing, then i concede some basis for a penalty and MS was in the wrong....but not one of those things remained

[Valve Bounce]

So ioan finally confirms what we've all known - that he's a MS fan first and Ferrari fan second. Big deal - nice to see you've finally come out of the closet one this though.



Well, to be fair to ioan, he has always made this point perfectly clear. There was never any closet - he was quite open about it.

[christophulus]

Brawn's a clever guy, but the general consensus is that he and Schumacher were in the wrong thanks to poorly worded ruling. Fair play to them for having a go though.

If the rule was changed for TV then it needs changing back, no one is really going to care whether the cars cross the line in single file behind the SC or not, it's the same outcome.

[SGWilko]

once again read the rule

'if the race ends while the SC is deployed'

And, of course, the race generally ends on the final lap, does it not?

Or am I watching it wrong?

(Oh, that's right - count back in the event of a red flag. Now, I admit there is some consensus that many flags were waved during the race, but no reds..........)

And, the SC was out on the.......

anyone........

anyone........

no?

Need a hand.......?

THE FINAL LAP.

Ba dum, tish.

[MrJan]

And, of course, the race generally ends on the final lap, does it not?

Or am I watching it wrong?

(Oh, that's right - count back in the event of a red flag. Now, I admit there is some consensus that many flags were waved during the race, but no reds..........)

And, the SC was out on the.......

anyone........

anyone........

no?

Need a hand.......?

THE FINAL LAP.

Ba dum, tish.

The SC was coming in that lap though, not finishing the race. If the lights were on and the SC boards out then I would agree with you but as they took in the boards, switched the lights out and waved green flags I'm of the opinion that the SC was in, not finishing the race. The race finishes at the END of the final lap, just because it was out DURING the final lap doesn't mean that it was finishing the race.

Either way I think that you'll agree it's poor wording and poor implementation that was obviously going to cause confusion.

[SGWilko]

The SC was coming in that lap though, not finishing the race.

If you read the rule correctly, you will understand that it tells you the SC is gonna come in, and hence the cars will not finish behind it.

Why is this fact so ignored and so hard to grasp?

[MrJan]

If you read the rule correctly, you will understand that it tells you the SC is gonna come in, and hence the cars will not finish behind it.

Why is this fact so ignored and so hard to grasp?

BECAUSE THE CHUFFING LIGHTS WERE OUT!! :p :

The rule is about when the race finishes under the SC, meaning that the SC would continue round if there were more laps. The SC wasn't going to continue though, it was coming in at the end of lap 78, not staying out for the imaginary lap 79. I would have thought that, if the race was finishing under the SC, it would still have lights on for the whole of the last lap.

The SC wasn't coming in because it was the end of the race, it was coming in because it was the end of the SC period. In my mind that means that the race to the line was legit. The plain and simple way to have shown that it was still the SC period would be to keep the yellows and SC boards out and leave the lights switched on. They didn't, ergo the SC was not needed to finish the race.

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/7195/40403944.jpg

Still, I repeat, do you think that it is a stupid rule that is asking for misinterpretation?

[SGWilko]

BECAUSE THE CHUFFING LIGHTS WERE OUT!! :p :

The rule is about when the race finishes under the SC, meaning that the SC would continue round if there were more laps. The SC wasn't going to continue though, it was coming in at the end of lap 78, not staying out for the imaginary lap 79. I would have thought that, if the race was finishing under the SC, it would still have lights on for the whole of the last lap.

The SC wasn't coming in because it was the end of the race, it was coming in because it was the end of the SC period. In my mind that means that the race to the line was legit. The plain and simple way to have shown that it was still the SC period would be to keep the yellows and SC boards out and leave the lights switched on. They didn't, ergo the SC was not needed to finish the race.

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/7195/40403944.jpg

Still, I repeat, do you think that it is a stupid rule that is asking for misinterpretation?

Calm down dear.

Regardless of the colour of the lights, the rule states the SC car will come in.

It came in.

End of.

So there.

Na na na na na naaaaaaaaa. :laugh:

[Mia 01]

Even if someone don´t know about a rule or a law, it´s mandatory to follow them.

I know, well after five years in university, studying the matter.

Very boring stuff I can ashore you.

[SGWilko]

Even if someone don´t know about a rule or a law, it´s mandatory to follow them.

I know, well after five years in university, studying the matter.

Very boring stuff I can ashore you.

And of course, all the teams know the rules inside and out, don't they....?

[SGWilko]

Still, I repeat, do you think that it is a stupid rule that is asking for misinterpretation?

Sorry, missed this bit. One thing we all know about F1, every rule is open to interpretation.

[Robinho]

You mean the team's protests?!

no, unfortunately most of the teams seem to have made the same complaint, not just Ferrari

[Robinho]

Calm down dear.

Regardless of the colour of the lights, the rule states the SC car will come in.

It came in.

End of.

So there.

Na na na na na naaaaaaaaa. :laugh:

the rule may state that in the event of the race finishing behind the safety car, the SC will pull into the pits, but it does not say that is the only circumstance under which the SC can pull in on the final lap.

Just because the last lap was started behind the SC does not mean it had to finish behind it, only that if it did need to finish under SC, the SC would pull into pits and the cars would cross the line.

there is no provision to say that the SC cannot be pulled on the final lap to allow racings to resume.

Whether the race was under SC or allowed to go green then the SC would have come in either way. the officials messed up if they intended to neutralise the race to the end by allowing the provision to restart the race for the final few hundred yards

[MrJan]

Calm down dear.

Regardless of the colour of the lights, the rule states the SC car will come in.

It came in.

End of.

So there.

Na na na na na naaaaaaaaa. :laugh:

:p : :cheese:

I'm not arguing with the rule itself (although it's stupid), I'm saying that it isn't actually relevant. Under the old rules (without the confusing last lap clause) I think that the SC would still have pitted when it did (although back then no one would have passed anyway), rather than finishing the race by crossing the line.

Every signal given to the drivers pointed to the safety period being over when it peeled in (as opposed to rule whatever it was coming into effect). Even if that rule didn't exist then the SC would still have come in that lap, at any other part of the race the SC would not have driven to the line and finished the lap. As it was the last lap I'm saying that the race didn't actually finish under the SC for 40.13 to be at all relevant.

And yes all rules are open to interpretation, this one just actively asks for trouble.

And of course all the other teams complained, most teams complain if another team uses too much sugar in their tea. It's a **** flinging sport.

[Hondo]

I feel your pain about Ferrari. After 30 years, I gave them up after the McLaren deal, which I still believe was a set up on McLaren.

I didn't watch the race but was following it on Planet F-1's lap by lap. The minute the last safety car came out, I knew that Schumacher would jump Alonso if they went green again. I was suprised by everyone that was caught napping.

[MrJan]

the rule may state that in the event of the race finishing behind the safety car, the SC will pull into the pits, but it does not say that is the only circumstance under which the SC can pull in on the final lap.

Just because the last lap was started behind the SC does not mean it had to finish behind it, only that if it did need to finish under SC, the SC would pull into pits and the cars would cross the line.

there is no provision to say that the SC cannot be pulled on the final lap to allow racings to resume.

Whether the race was under SC or allowed to go green then the SC would have come in either way. the officials messed up if they intended to neutralise the race to the end by allowing the provision to restart the race for the final few hundred yards

Nail. Head. Hit.

[SGWilko]

most teams complain if another team uses too much sugar in their tea.

Come on now, Ron Dennis only complains if they spill tea in the saucer, you KNOW that...... :D

[SGWilko]

I honestly believe that, if all the teams saw it like Ross, there would have been a lot more attempted overtakes.

There were not.

As much as I understand the viewpoint that the rule is loosely worded (isn't every rule in F1?), that the marshalls or race control had brain fade etc (not much of a surprise there), I still maintain that the rule was adhered to by all except the Shoe and huggy bear Brawn.

Opportunistic and true to his usual flair it sure was, but not within the rule as it is written and is intended to be applied.

[Retro Formula 1]

the rule may state that in the event of the race finishing behind the safety car, the SC will pull into the pits, but it does not say that is the only circumstance under which the SC can pull in on the final lap.

Just because the last lap was started behind the SC does not mean it had to finish behind it, only that if it did need to finish under SC, the SC would pull into pits and the cars would cross the line.

there is no provision to say that the SC cannot be pulled on the final lap to allow racings to resume.

Whether the race was under SC or allowed to go green then the SC would have come in either way. the officials messed up if they intended to neutralise the race to the end by allowing the provision to restart the race for the final few hundred yards

I think this is the most definitive post on the matter to date.

The rules do say that if a race is to finish under SC then the SC will come in.

They also say that when the SC comes in, overtaking is allowed from the first SC line.

The question in this instance is if the race was still under SC conditions or not. If it were, the SC should have come in and the race finish under yellow and SC boards. This was clearly not the case.

I think MS had every entitlement to race as the race was not under restricted conditions.

Problem is that the FIA rules mean you cannot appeal a decision after the race for these sorts of penalty.

[MrJan]

I honestly believe that, if all the teams saw it like Ross, there would have been a lot more attempted overtakes.

There were not.

Watch again. Alonso is clearly worried about his position (else he wouldn't have nailed it enough to get the tail out....which is the reason that MS could pass), LH and FM also were squirrelly as they floored it to try and overtake/maintain position. That's only of the handful of cars which we saw before watching Mark cross the line. I think that there were a lot more people racing, just that only one of them pulled it off.

Does anyone else notice the irony though? The FIA introduce a rule to make the last few hundred yards a bit more interesting....and then use it to penalise someone for making it even more interesting :laugh: That lot really don't know their arseholes from their earholes :D

[Mia 01]

Wow, you spent 5 years studying people who ignore rules?? What were you thinking? :p

Yes, that´s why.

Luckily theres always some as Ross and MS around.

[V12]

I don't support a team - I have football for that.

Always supported drivers, although as I get older I find my passionate support for a driver or drivers fading too, I guess I'm just a fan of the sport in general.

Of course it's important to have different teams and cars, but I don't feel any one of them in particular is worthy of my fanatical support :)

[woody2goody]

At least nobody can say that the FIA favoured Schumacher on this occasion.

It's nonsense anyway, I think Schumi was well within his rights to pass. The places should have been swapped and that would have been the end of it.

[race_director]

why didnt steward also consider that alonso made the mistake. does it mean that if alonso would have crashed into the wall at that time. they expect every car behind him to just stop at that point on the grid ???


Amuzing

[goodf1fun]

i fart should i open a new thread?

[SGWilko]

i fart should i open a new thread?

Only if it burnt the hairs on your nose or scorched the carpet.......

[SGWilko]

why didnt steward also consider that alonso made the mistake. does it mean that if alonso would have crashed into the wall at that time. they expect every car behind him to just stop at that point on the grid ???


Amuzing

You are havin' a larf, right?

If Onslo were to stack it -again - they would, if the road was passable, carry on regardless. He may even give the bird before the car comes to rest....... :D

[race_director]

You are havin' a larf, right?

If Onslo were to stack it -again - they would, if the road was passable, carry on regardless. He may even give the bird before the car comes to rest....... :D

on a second thought , IMO FIA would have handed penalties to all the cars which had passed him if he had crash.


I also think that Ex f1 driver who had rivalry with any present driver or any Ex driver having even one driver of his era still driving. shld not be on the panel


And i believe Hill was biased . IMO . i have no intent of sending him a mail anyway

[SGWilko]

on a second thought , IMO FIA would have handed penalties to all the cars which had passed him if he had crash.

If they all got penalties the same, would the result have changed????

[ioan]

Calm down dear.

Regardless of the colour of the lights, the rule states the SC car will come in.

It came in.

End of.

So there.

Na na na na na naaaaaaaaa. :laugh:

And where does the rules state that the car will turn of the lights and the SC boars will be withdrawn and the green flags will be waived?

I asked you several times and I have yet to see you show me the rule that states the above.

[ioan]

Does anyone else notice the irony though? The FIA introduce a rule to make the last few hundred yards a bit more interesting....and then use it to penalise someone for making it even more interesting :laugh: That lot really don't know their arseholes from their earholes :D

You are way to kind, I think the don't know that hole from their mouth either.

[ioan]

I feel your pain about Ferrari. After 30 years, I gave them up after the McLaren deal, which I still believe was a set up on McLaren.

Thanks.



I didn't watch the race but was following it on Planet F-1's lap by lap. The minute the last safety car came out, I knew that Schumacher would jump Alonso if they went green again. I was suprised by everyone that was caught napping.

During his F1 career he overtook 3 times on those last hundred metes of teh Monaco race:

1. Ralf
2. Rubens
3. Alonso

All of them complained because of the egg on their faces! :D

[i_max2k2]

Thanks.



During his F1 career he overtook 3 times on those last hundred metes of teh Monaco race:

1. Ralf
2. Rubens
3. Alonso

All of them complained because of the egg on their faces! :D

Yep all of them pristine moves, once he has a car to compete at the front, he would be the guy to beat, perhaps next year or end of this one.

[Tazio]

I feel your pain about Ferrari. After 30 years, I gave them up after the McLaren deal, which I still believe was a set up on McLaren.
McLaren< Ferrari


700+pages of stolen IP.

http://www.crazydribble.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/pissing_elephant.jpg


I.P. freely

[Tazio]

I feel your pain about Ferrari. After 30 years, I gave them up after the McLaren deal, which I still believe was a set up on McLaren.
McLaren< Ferrari


700+pages of stolen IP.

http://www.crazydribble.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/pissing_elephant.jpg


I.P. freely

[Koz]

McLaren< Ferrari


700+pages of stolen IP.

http://www.crazydribble.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/pissing_elephant.jpg


I.P. freely

Holy cluster****, Batman!
I'm going to be having nightmares for weeks now, thanks Taz.

[gloomyDAY]

Well, it was good to have Tazio around for a few days.

It was fun while it lasted.

[CNR]

what al load of redbull

“You cannot leave the spectators without the possibility of enjoying one of the biggest stars in qualifying,
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/159868/1/alonso_chassis_a_write-off_as_ferrari_push_for_spare_car_return.html


2009 1
2008 0
2007 2
2006 6
2005 6
2004 1
2003 2
total 18 over 7 years is 2.5 per season

i think this should read the biggest cheat in F1

[SGWilko]

McLaren< Ferrari


700+pages of stolen IP.

http://www.crazydribble.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/pissing_elephant.jpg


I.P. freely

And the moral of this story? Don't dump on your own doorstep..... :D

[race_director]

If they all got penalties the same, would the result have changed????

I meant to say . FIA would have stopped the race, red flag . and revert to last laps standing . so that FRED can keep his 6th place.

Luca has to just make a call. He must be having the number on speed dial :)

[markabilly]

And, of course, the race generally ends on the final lap, does it not?

Or am I watching it wrong?

(Oh, that's right - count back in the event of a red flag. Now, I admit there is some consensus that many flags were waved during the race, but no reds..........)

And, the SC was out on the.......

anyone........

anyone........

no?

Need a hand.......?

THE FINAL LAP.

Ba dum, tish.
NO , NO, read the rules again.

The race ends when the lead car crosses the start finish line....and if the sC is not deployed because all the lights and signs are off, per the rules, the race has not ended while the SC was deployed.

now if the SC pulled in without the lights and everything else being turned off, then penalty of the shoe.

As it stands now, penlaty on fia, damaon and all the rest of the losers

By their own black letter rules...Duh, i know, it is tough when english might not be your first language

[markabilly]

McLaren< Ferrari


700+pages of stolen IP.

http://www.crazydribble.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/pissing_elephant.jpg


I.P. freely
FOR A SECOND, I THOUGHT THAT WAS DAMON MAKING HIS RULING, BUT THEN REALIZED TOO LARGE....but otherwise, i see no difference

[markabilly]

But consistency is also vital. So it seems rather odd that Schumacher ends up demoted to 12th for this set of circumstances, while Hamilton and Vettel got only a warning for sparring in the pit lane at 100km/h.
And what of Rubens Barrichello, who threw his steering wheel into the path of another car as he leapt from his crashed Williams? This seems not to have attracted any ire from the stewards.
Apparently marshals picked up that steering wheel, or what was left of it, at the exit of the tunnel, so it had travelled quite some distance from where it started! The thing weighs over a kilogramme, not to mention that it costs around £40,000!

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/05/why-mercedes-walked-away-from-schumacher-appeal/ (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/05/why-mercedes-walked-away-from-schumacher-appeal/)

[markabilly]

from Stirling Moss, who still has a pair, unlike the whinger hill




"On top of that, ten teams appeared to have advised their drivers to start racing again. By the letter of the law it was safe to race - really the lights should have stayed yellow and there would have been no confusion."

]
Furthermore, Sir Stirling believes that Schumacher performed in the correct manner under the circumstances. "I'm sure Michael did the right thing at the time and if I was in the same place I would have some exactly the same thing,"


So who you gonna beleive? The whinger or the man?

[markabilly]

last but not least, there is no hard rule that the penalty is 20 seconds....

[Roamy]

from Stirling Moss, who still has a pair, unlike the whinger hill




So who you gonna beleive? The whinger or the man?

The wise ones called in and asked. That is why they now have sophisticated radios. Sterling was back in the "pit board" days

[markabilly]

Sterling was back in the "pit board" days
yeah, back in the days when men were men...

[Retro Formula 1]

yeah, back in the days when men were men...

I believe men still are men. It may be a bit different in your neck of the woods but just checked my Calvin Klein's and things are still swinging away in the wind as per normal. May I suggest a lower oestrogen diet?

[markabilly]

I believe men still are men. It may be a bit different in your neck of the woods but just checked my Calvin Klein's and things are still swinging away in the wind as per normal. May I suggest a lower oestrogen diet?
if it is swinging in the wind...it must be pretty lightweight

but I am certain it is more than Damon. No doubt. Indeed, he is probably jealous

[Retro Formula 1]

if it is swinging in the wind...it must be pretty lightweight

but I am certain it is more than Damon. No doubt. Indeed, he is probably jealous

Big enough to fill a pram!

Back to Mr Hill. Do we have to have this character assassination of a man who has demonstrated his integrity and commitment to the sport. I am sure he regrets the way he chose to retire from driving but to accuse him of being gutless or a coward is frankly laughable.

The conspiracy theorists will maintain it was revenge for Schumacher deliberately crashing into Hill and robbing him of a Championship. Yet after all this week, the most likely explanation is that the rules were interpreted correctly but were poorly written and implemented. Hardly Hill or the other Stewards fault and as he said, he assumed he was there to offer an opinion on racing situations and not to be a Lawyer responsible for interpretation of statute.

How all this has then spawned to be a criticism of Ferrari who quite rightly appealed something that they saw as unfair is beyond me but some people might like to maintain a sense of perspective and worry about things a bit more important than this.

[Tazio]

Big enough to fill a pram!

Back to Mr Hill. Do we have to have this character assassination of a man who has demonstrated his integrity and commitment to the sport. I am sure he regrets the way he chose to retire from driving but to accuse him of being gutless or a coward is frankly laughable.

The conspiracy theorists will maintain it was revenge for Schumacher deliberately crashing into Hill and robbing him of a Championship. Yet after all this week, the most likely explanation is that the rules were interpreted correctly but were poorly written and implemented. Hardly Hill or the other Stewards fault and as he said, he assumed he was there to offer an opinion on racing situations and not to be a Lawyer responsible for interpretation of statute.

How all this has then spawned to be a criticism of Ferrari who quite rightly appealed something that they saw as unfair is beyond me but some people might like to maintain a sense of perspective and worry about things a bit more important than this.yea' like maybe even EVERYONE ELSE :crazy:
As a former member of "The Church of St. Mike".
Being deprogramed can be a daunting endeavor.
Some are sicker than others!
I think there is a 12 step program for the latter.
You just need to be willing to let go ;)

[Retro Formula 1]

yea' like maybe even EVERYONE ELSE :crazy:
As a former member of "The Church of St. Mike".
Being deprogramed can be a daunting endeavor.
Some are sicker than others!
I think there is a 12 step program for the latter.
You just need to be willing to let go ;)

I hear you brother.

Are you trying to say our friend ioan is more Waco than Wacko!

One day at a time. Stay strong.

[Tazio]

I hear you brother.

Are you trying to say our friend ioan is more Waco than Wacko!

One day at a time. Stay strong.
Denial is not a river in Egypt

[Mia 01]

This is it!

[ioan]

from Stirling Moss, who still has a pair, unlike the whinger hill




So who you gonna beleive? The whinger or the man?

Moss wins hands down. :D

[ioan]

if it is swinging in the wind...it must be pretty lightweight

:rotflmao: Great one liner there! :up: