some strong words from randy [Archive]

SarahFan

11th May 2010, 18:40

Another idea he believes will be in place by next year's 500: an earlier starting time. He's thinking 11 a.m., which not only would give NASCAR drivers a chance to do the big Sunday double, but would allow fans from out of town more daylight hours to return to Chicago or Cincinnati.
"The Indy 500 always stood for the best drivers in the world, but without (Sam) Hornish, (Juan Pablo) Montoya and (Tony) Stewart here, it's hard to argue we have 100 percent of the top drivers," Bernard said. "How many more fans would follow them and follow the race if they were in it? Moving the time (to 1 p.m.) didn't help the ratings a bit."

He has grassroots ideas. He has ideas about trying to bring back the innovative technology that used to make every spring so interesting. He has ideas about reaching out to the karting community. He is learning, listening. He comes in with fresh eyes, unsullied by the destructive politics of the past.
The insiders nearly killed the sport. Now it's time to see what an outsider can do.

^todays nuggett....

anthonyvop

11th May 2010, 20:01

inimitablestoo

11th May 2010, 20:18

"We need to blow up IRL," Bernard said. "It needs to be (known as) IndyCar.

"To the purist, (IRL) is a negative acronym. We need to get away from using it."
Definitely an acronym then, is it? So we should have been pronouncing it "Earl" all along, and not IRL?

A minor point, Mr Randy Gentleman, but otherwise some fine points.

e2mtt

11th May 2010, 20:27

Only partially right. The IRL name has to go but so does IndyCar along with anything related to "Indy" when describing the entire series.

They don't call it the "Daytona" stock car series or Formula Monaco.

Oh don't go there. We settled this debate once & for all on this thread: http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=777072#post777072

IndyCars are what they are.

anthonyvop

11th May 2010, 22:38

Yeah, but they DO call them the American LeMans series and Daytona Prototypes. :p

And they are growing by leaps and bounds?

anthonyvop

11th May 2010, 22:39

Oh don't go there. We settled this debate once & for all on this thread: http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=777072#post777072

IndyCars are what they are.

The buying public settled it awhile back. Drop the "Indy" moniker.

Wilf

11th May 2010, 22:57

The buying public settled it awhile back. Drop the "Indy" moniker.

You are right, NO ONE goes to Indy anymore, all those other races are bigger.

Scotty G.

11th May 2010, 23:39

Just call the series CART and be done with it.

A freakin' name change ain't gonna put another ass in the seat at a real race track or put another one in front of a TV either. If he thinks a few letters mean jack squat for why people don't care anymore, he truly is clueless.

This is what you get when you bring a guy in who knows nothing about the sport and nothing about its history (which goes back a hell of a lot farther then 1996). Probably another idea he got from Miller and Cotman.

Marbles

11th May 2010, 23:44

Dropping "IRL" and just calling it Indycar is a no-brainer. I'm impressed if he's come out and said it and I hope he executes on it immediately. They even talked of this 20 years ago when it was called CART. The casual fan has always called it Indycar in my lifetime.

Wilf

12th May 2010, 01:49

Scotty G.

12th May 2010, 02:36

Scotty - I don't often agree with you but I have marked the calendar on this one.

Thanks Wilf.

We don't always have to agree on things. Life and racing would be boring if everybody thought exactly the same.

I don't think this whole thing is that big a deal. Just semantics.

But it was the tone that Bernard set with his remarks, that will be offensive to some. This guy has been here for a few months, and now he is talking like he's some expert on this.

He needs to realize that the term "IRL" is not met with the same derision that the CART/Champ Car set (which now dominate this sport and obviously dominate his ear) see it as. He needs to realize that there are many, many folks (although fewer by the year) that were truly behind the original IRL and what its ideals stood for. He needs to realize that speaking badly about the term "IRL", only further divides and alienates many in the sport (since the divide is obviously still there and very alive if you read message boards) in a time when he and HIS sport cannot afford to alienate ANYONE.

I think Bernard opened up a can of worms he didn't need to. Very few people even refer to it as the IRL anymore. Its the Indy Car series. Sanctioned by the Indy Racing League. Just like its Indy Lights, sanctioned by the Indy Racing League.

The Indy 500 for years was sanctioned by USAC.

Bernard should just worry about why so few Americans are in cars and watching the races and make that his #1 priority. Leave the semantics to the folks like Robin Miller and his minions.

anthonyvop

12th May 2010, 05:04

You are right, NO ONE goes to Indy anymore, all those other races are bigger.

Who is saying anything about changing the name of the Indy 500?

It is the series that needs a new name.

Wilf

12th May 2010, 05:34

Who is saying anything about changing the name of the Indy 500?

It is the series that needs a new name.What kind of cars do they drive?

ICWS

12th May 2010, 06:27

To be more technical, IndyCars used to be referred to as American Championship Cars. But if Randy has considered at all renaming the IndyCar Series as the American Championship Car Series, that would conjure up a recollection of the Champ Car World Series, which I think he would want to avoid for obvious reasons.

Personally, using the IndyCar name for professional single-seater open-wheel cars based in the U.S. is still the way to go. It is just a more recognizable name for these kind of cars. I would like for the series to be bring back the IndyCar World Series name by just by itself (No IRL IndyCar World Series, USAC IndyCar World Series or CART IndyCar World Series; just IndyCar World Series). That name implies that this is a racing series that recognizes the Indianapolis 500 as its jewel and center piece (which it still is and will continue to be), but the series also competes elsewhere around the world (including the U.S.).

Also, something else I would like to see happen, if Randy hasn't considered this yet, is to revive the Vanderbilt Cup to be the series' overall championship trophy.

ChicagocrewIRL

12th May 2010, 11:35

The buying public settled it awhile back. Drop the "Indy" moniker.

Here we go again..... <sigh> .... WHY WHY WHY do you HATE HATE HATE Indy so much ???

Open wheel racing in North America would NOT NOT NOT exist without Indianapolis and no matter how much YOU deny it Indianapolis IS and will always be part of North American open wheel racing.

CART died because it did not have Indianapolis. You want IndyCar to die also, so I guess I can see your motivation. You frustrate me to no end. Congrats LOL

ChicagocrewIRL

12th May 2010, 11:36

Who is saying anything about changing the name of the Indy 500?

It is the series that needs a new name.

Why do you hate Indianapolis ?

px400r

12th May 2010, 12:12

So we get rid of the "IRL" moniker for a series that has cars, tracks, rules, and people that essentially make up the IRL.

chuck34

12th May 2010, 13:49

Who is saying anything about changing the name of the Indy 500?

It is the series that needs a new name.

You have yet to make a convincing argument that changing the name will bring in anyone. If they drop the "Indy" name will that really magically bring in hundreds of thousands of new fans?

You are the FIRST and ONLY person I have ever run into that HATES the name "Indy" ... and you seem to be watching the series. So tell me how will dropping the name build the fan base?

peasant

12th May 2010, 13:59

CART died because it did not have Indianapolis.

Thats total *****. But It's damn good to hear bernard say that,and I agree it should be indycar.

dataman1

12th May 2010, 17:05

ChicagocrewIRL

12th May 2010, 17:10

Thats total *****. But It's damn good to hear bernard say that,and I agree it should be indycar.

FACT: CART teams returned to Indy to do one-offs because their sponsors wanted them to do so. See Phillip Morris, see Target... etc etc

FACT: Honda and Toyota switched over to the IRL why ? Because of Indianapolis.

FACT: When these teams and engine manufacturers switched over, CART was basically emasculated.

Please go on and tell me that these are not facts. Yeah that's right . UH huh .

Lousada

12th May 2010, 17:34

Then add a new series using open wheel trucks and call them " ????? Truck series"

Just having a little fun.

Awesome!

http://img132.imagevenue.com/loc232/th_77859_HomeHotRod1_122_232lo.jpg (http://img132.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=77859_HomeHotRod1_122_232lo.jpg)

anthonyvop

12th May 2010, 19:20

What kind of cars do they drive?

Dallaras

anthonyvop

12th May 2010, 19:31

Why do you hate Indianapolis ?

The City or the Indy 500?

I don't hate the Indy 500. Never said I hated it.
I don't have a fixation that it is the greatest event in the world and the only thing that matters.

I view it for what it is.
The Indy 500 use to be the biggest race in the world but has dropped significantly in popularity and significance to the point that it isn't even the most important race that day.

I realize that there are many here who have an emotional attachment to the Indy 500 but they need to realize that the vast majority of people don't. Times change. Tastes change.
Why drive non-Indy 500 fans away? Dropping the "Indy" name from the series will not hurt the Indy 500 one bit. It didn't hurt it when the series was called USAC and it didn't hurt it when it was called CART before the split. In fact it prospered during those times.

ChicagocrewIRL

12th May 2010, 19:50

The City or the Indy 500?

I don't hate the Indy 500. Never said I hated it.
I don't have a fixation that it is the greatest event in the world and the only thing that matters.

I view it for what it is.
The Indy 500 use to be the biggest race in the world but has dropped significantly in popularity and significance to the point that it isn't even the most important race that day.

I realize that there are many here who have an emotional attachment to the Indy 500 but they need to realize that the vast majority of people don't. Times change. Tastes change.
Why drive non-Indy 500 fans away? Dropping the "Indy" name from the series will not hurt the Indy 500 one bit. It didn't hurt it when the series was called USAC and it didn't hurt it when it was called CART before the split. In fact it prospered during those times.

You're such a hater and I don't know why. You have yet to offer ANY evidence that "INDY" keeps people away or is detrimental to the series. To the contrary, the term "INDY" is synonymous with speed, competition, and spectacle. The term is an asset not a liability.
SEEE -->>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP4PyTV4iaY

But I know I will never convince you because your opinions are so clouded by hatred that they will never even consider anything otherwise. So I wish you the best in your deluded world. Must be very lonely where you are.

You just don't know what Indy means. And you never will. I feel sorry for you.

garyshell

12th May 2010, 20:13

It didn't hurt it when the series was called USAC and it didn't hurt it when it was called CART before the split. In fact it prospered during those times.

And what did the "man on the street" call the series during both of those terms. They only called it USAC or CART when they were talking to another USAC or CART person, when they were talking to someone outside that small circle they called it "Indycars".

I too am still waiting to hear your justification on how the term Indy is driving folks away. I eagerly await an answer to that question asked of you MONTHS ago and still unanswered.

Gary

Mark in Oshawa

12th May 2010, 21:09

Here we go again..... <sigh> .... WHY WHY WHY do you HATE HATE HATE Indy so much ???

Open wheel racing in North America would NOT NOT NOT exist without Indianapolis and no matter how much YOU deny it Indianapolis IS and will always be part of North American open wheel racing.

CART died because it did not have Indianapolis. You want IndyCar to die also, so I guess I can see your motivation. You frustrate me to no end. Congrats LOL

I am not going to knock you for loving the 500, I for I do too, but I think OW racing in some form would have existed if there was no 500. That said, there is, and it is the most important race.

THAT Said, CART may have died because it didn't have Indy, but I would hardly say Tony George's IRL worked to any great extent. There needs to be a series, in which the signature event is the Indy 500. What we didn't need was 2 of them, and THAT was where things went wrong. What is more, is Tony couldn't see that it would destroy the legitmacy of the sport and in the end, the IRL. How much money did he spend before he was given the boot? Lets face the reality, if his "vision" worked, he would still be there, and he isn't because he burned a lot of the family fortune proving he didn't know squat. So when Randy Bernard wants to maybe change the name of the sport, I think there is some merit to. The IRL was the creation of Tony George, and I would love to erase my link to anything he personally created....

Still doesn't change the 500 or the cars are Indycars though. I always called CART cars really Indy cars for a long time...because the reality is, they were the same DNA as the cars that last raced from CART in the Indy 500. Just they were told not to show up unless you played by an arbitrary set of rules....

chuck34

12th May 2010, 21:33

Why drive non-Indy 500 fans away? Dropping the "Indy" name from the series will not hurt the Indy 500 one bit. It didn't hurt it when the series was called USAC and it didn't hurt it when it was called CART before the split. In fact it prospered during those times.

Who is being driven away by the name "Indy"? Again, YOU seem to be the only one who give a d@mn about the name, AND YOU ARE WATCHING THE SERIES! So who exactly is being driven away? This form of racing has been called IndyCar since before any of us here were born, and probably before our parents too. Why would you go changing that and cause confusion in the marketplace? That is the LAST thing we need right now.

And the series was NEVER refered to as USAC or CART by the general public. Most called it IndyCar. So much so that (as I pointed out to you in the other thread) the promoters of the Toronto and Austrailia races decided to keep the name "Indy" even when technically they were not IndyCars racing there.

Your personal hatred for the name "Indy" is not a reason to drop it. You have presented absolutely no evidence that it will help anything. How about until you can come up with a convincing, or at least logical, argument you let this drop, ok?

Mark in Oshawa

12th May 2010, 21:36

Who is being driven away by the name "Indy"? Again, YOU seem to be the only one who give a d@mn about the name, AND YOU ARE WATCHING THE SERIES. So who exactly is being driven away? This form of racing has been called IndyCar since before any of us here were born, and probably before our parents too. Why would you go changing that and cause confusion in the marketplace? That is the LAST thing we need right now.

And the series was NEVER refered to as USAC or CART by the general public. Most called it IndyCar. So much so that (as I pointed out to you in the other thread) the promoters of the Toronto and Austrailia races decided to keep the name "Indy" even when technically they were not IndyCars racing there.

Your personal hatred for the name "Indy" is not a reason to drop it. You have presented absolutely no evidence that it will help anything. How about until you can come up with a convincing, or at least logical, argument.
Technically the cars in Toronto after 95 were not "Indy"cars? Spritiually and their technical DNA would say they were tho....

Really, they call the series what they like, but for anyone to hide the fact they are Indycars is a braindead idea, and I don't think that is what Bernard wants. I just think he wants to dump the IRL name and give the series a new look. No one will stop calling them Indycars though.

You have to understand though Chuck, some people are just haters of the whole series....disguising themselves as concerned fans...

NaBUru38

12th May 2010, 21:40

How about this:

Change the name of the sanctioning body to "Indycar"
Change the name of the top level series to "IZOD Cup"
Change the name of the development series to "(insert sponsor's name series"
Then add a new series using open wheel trucks and call them " ????? Truck series"

Just having a little fun.
Ouch!!! :D Btw, Lousada, you picked the perfect open-wheel truck!!!

Seriously, how about "Indy Racing Group" (IRG) or "IndyCar Racing Group" (ICRG)? Anyway, it's not deal breaker, it's just the sanctioning body's name.

chuck34

12th May 2010, 21:46

Technically the cars in Toronto after 95 were not "Indy"cars? Spritiually and their technical DNA would say they were tho....

The argument could be made that in '96 they were the same. But from '97 on the cars racing at the Molson INDY Toronto were not the same cars that ran in the Indianapolis 500. So, no they were not IndyCars.

I do get your point though.

Mark in Oshawa

12th May 2010, 21:52

The argument could be made that in '96 they were the same. But from '97 on the cars racing at the Molson INDY Toronto were not the same cars that ran in the Indianapolis 500. So, no they were not IndyCars.

I do get your point though.

IN 97, and 98 even, Lolas and Reynards DID run at Indy, and they ran in Toronto. Not just the exact cars.

Lets face it though Chuck, no one would look even at a Lola in 2002 and NOT call it an Indycar. It was called Champ Car eventually, but the reality is DNA, size and style of car paid homage to the Indy 500 in the layout, size and appearence. The lay person wouldn't know the difference and that was why the two series model as was laid out by the wizard at 16th and Georgetown confused the marketplace and eventually diluted it....

chuck34

12th May 2010, 22:03

IN 97, and 98 even, Lolas and Reynards DID run at Indy, and they ran in Toronto. Not just the exact cars.

No, this is not correct. In '97 the rules changed and you had to run a Dallara, G-Force, or Riley&Scott. No Lolas nor Reynards were allowed after '96.

Lets face it though Chuck, no one would look even at a Lola in 2002 and NOT call it an Indycar. It was called Champ Car eventually, but the reality is DNA, size and style of car paid homage to the Indy 500 in the layout, size and appearence. The lay person wouldn't know the difference

I agree with that totally.

and that was why the two series model as was laid out by the wizard at 16th and Georgetown confused the marketplace and eventually diluted it....

Sure TG could have done things differently. However, the CART boys could have as well. They could have shown up at Indy in '96, qualified with the X number of fastest times, and blown up the whole dumb 25-8 rule thing. That would have forced TG into a position where he probably would have had to face the music, allow the fastest 33 no matter where they were from, and the IRL probably collapses right there. There are almost always two sides to every decision.

But I REALLY don't want to get into a whole IRL vs CART deal here, there's PLENTY of other topics that have devolved into that.

Mark in Oshawa

12th May 2010, 22:51

No, this is not correct. In '97 the rules changed and you had to run a Dallara, G-Force, or Riley&Scott. No Lolas nor Reynards were allowed after '96.

The new formula with Dallara, G-Froce and R and S came along for the 97 Indy 500. So the first 2 years the cars were the same in theory, ok...correct. A minor point.

Sure TG could have done things differently. However, the CART boys could have as well. They could have shown up at Indy in '96, qualified with the X number of fastest times, and blown up the whole dumb 25-8 rule thing. That would have forced TG into a position where he probably would have had to face the music, allow the fastest 33 no matter where they were from, and the IRL probably collapses right there. There are almost always two sides to every decision.

But I REALLY don't want to get into a whole IRL vs CART deal here, there's PLENTY of other topics that have devolved into that.

The CART guys probably figured The family wouldn't let Tony spent all that money propping up the IRL. They were only 15 years too late...

I think if they showed up in 96 and blew up the 25-8 in thing in theory, the reality is they couldn't have reached Tony. He would have allowed the 8 fastest CART guys and the other 17 could go pound sand. The harsh reality is anyone dopey enough to create another series in the manner Tony did to "protect" the 500 wasn't a reasonable man to start with...

Easy Drifter

12th May 2010, 23:38

Mark in Oshawa

12th May 2010, 23:41

Folks it is over. King George has been dethroned.
Most of us realize the current state of affairs is not really working and we all have been calling for change; well pretty well all.
So Randy comes in and is at least looking at changes but realizes because of the economy things have to be done rather slowly.
So let us give the guy a chance instead of complaining because he is trying to do something instead of the status quo which is not and has not been working.
Sure he may make mistakes but so does everyone. We just better hope he does not make many.
But please stop navel gazing and rehashing for the umpteenth time the same old arguements.

He is dethroned...but to see people advocating what he did worked or was right is very maddening....it is proof positive that those who don't learn from an experience are doomed to repeat it.

Somehow Randy has instinctively understood this, and he is looking to change the "channel"...or at least dump the IRL moniker....

I am not sure if it is a big deal...but perceptions are how you sell the sport, and the perception of the IRL isn't a good one among race fans.

Scotty G.

12th May 2010, 23:43

How about this:

Change the name of the sanctioning body to "Indycar"
Change the name of the top level series to "IZOD Cup"

Yes, we need to make it even more confusing for people.

"Honey, lets go watch the Izod Cup Race". Huh???

Mark in Oshawa

12th May 2010, 23:48

Yes, we need to make it even more confusing for people.

"Honey, lets go watch the Izod Cup Race". Huh???

I think he was poking fun at something Scott...
No matter...I am with you in that they are Indycars and we shouldn't ever change that name, but changing the IRL to ....something may not be THAT bad.....as long as the name makes sense and is natural..

Scotty G.

12th May 2010, 23:48

Somehow Randy has instinctively understood this, and he is looking to change the "channel"...or at least dump the IRL moniker....

Randy needs to quit listening to all these CART loving shills that have his ear.

There was no need to disparage the IRL and its fans, with the comments he made. It was a stupid can of worms to open and a stupid time of the year to open them.

There are plenty of folks (some of whom are for some reason still sorta interested in his series) that supported THE IRL, long before Rodeo Randy took this gig. Supported it when many of "our" fans now, thumbed their noses at the league and everything it stood for. So what does Randy do now? Basically tells those folks to go fly a kite.

He stepped on his youknowhat, with those comments.

Mark in Oshawa

13th May 2010, 00:20

Randy needs to quit listening to all these CART loving shills that have his ear.

There was no need to disparage the IRL and its fans, with the comments he made. It was a stupid can of worms to open and a stupid time of the year to open them.

There are plenty of folks (some of whom are for some reason still sorta interested in his series) that supported THE IRL, long before Rodeo Randy took this gig. Supported it when many of "our" fans now, thumbed their noses at the league and everything it stood for. So what does Randy do now? Basically tells those folks to go fly a kite.

He stepped on his youknowhat, with those comments.

Maybe...but half the fans agree with him too. Again, in this series, you have people trying to drive a wedge into the series....

I don't really give a damn whether he changes the name or not, but to the casual fan who wasn't watching the IRL the last 15 years....maybe this changes the perception.

peasant

13th May 2010, 01:06

FACT: CART teams returned to Indy to do one-offs because their sponsors wanted them to do so. See Phillip Morris, see Target... etc etc

FACT: Honda and Toyota switched over to the IRL why ? Because of Indianapolis.

FACT: When these teams and engine manufacturers switched over, CART was basically emasculated.

Please go on and tell me that these are not facts. Yeah that's right . UH huh .

Fact - CART remained the dominant series till it screwed itself
Fact - tony georges insane spending was the only reason the IRL lasted longer than moments
Fact - With indy and all the cart stars and Teams - the IRL was an utter an total failure which has all but killed the gold laying goose.
Have you noticed that with some decent varied cars indycar will be conceptually CART? Not the IRL?

If you're an original fan of the IRL shouldn't you be heading over to NASCAR now? Your saviour has miserably failed thrown another tanti and run away - your americans and all ovals is long gone. Why would you stay around this series?

peasant

13th May 2010, 01:09

Randy needs to quit listening to all these CART loving shills that have his ear.

There was no need to disparage the IRL and its fans, with the comments he made. It was a stupid can of worms to open and a stupid time of the year to open them.

There are plenty of folks (some of whom are for some reason still sorta interested in his series) that supported THE IRL, long before Rodeo Randy took this gig. Supported it when many of "our" fans now, thumbed their noses at the league and everything it stood for. So what does Randy do now? Basically tells those folks to go fly a kite.

He stepped on his youknowhat, with those comments.

See TV ratings 95 vs TV ratings 2009. If he gained 1/2 of what was lost since 95 at the cost of all he had in 2009,it's a massive gain. Something vs next to nothing usually is.

Mark in Oshawa

13th May 2010, 01:23

chuck34

13th May 2010, 01:36

I just don't get it. Doesn't matter how low this sport goes, people keep trying to tell me how great it was when Tony was in charge, and somehow Randy is driving the bus of the ledge. My god, the bus went off years ago...

I hate to prolong this IRL vs CART crap. But the CART guys drove their bus off the ledge years before the IRL as well. Then the ChampCar guys drove their bus off the ledge a couple years later than that, but still before the IRL. And that was with 3 guys spending a fortune on their stuff too, the very thing that TG is being blasted for now.

Why can't we all just lay off of TG, or at least include the Amigos in the same breath? If we can ALL realize that EVERYONE who has been in a leadership position for the last 20 years was/is crap, we can possibly move forward.

I don't care who you think started it all. Some would say it was TG and his arrogance. Others would say it was the CART board and their arrogance for not just giving TG the seat he wanted. IT DOESN'T MATTER NOW!

We can keep going over and over these same arguments for years upon years. But what will that accomplish? NOTHING! We've been doing it for years and it hasn't moved anything forward. So stop it right now.

Easy Drifter

13th May 2010, 01:50

Marbles

13th May 2010, 04:20

Here's a simple modern day test to check the "IRL" brand out. Go to your address bar and type IRL.com. Don't know what the hell that means but if you type in Indycar.com you'll end up right where you want to be.

slorydn1

13th May 2010, 05:07

And the series was NEVER refered to as USAC or CART by the general public. Most called it IndyCar.

Very true. When I was a teenager back in Chicago during the 80's and Danny Sullivan won the 500 after spinning out a group of us were sitting around the next day "bench racing" and one of the guys asked if we had seen "that dude" spin out and win in the Indycar race the day before....not CART race, Indycar race.

If you had asked any of us back then what CART stood for we would have answered those things our moms put the groceries in at the store.

See, in NASCAR, there is NO mistaking who the sanctioning body is. Yeah, we call them Cup cars if differentiating between the series, or stock cars when generalizing the "type" of race car, but the word NASCAR is in the offical name of the series and appears FIRST: NASCAR Sprint Cup Series or NASCAR Camping World Truck Series. Because of that, even though it was a big deal when Winston stopped sponsering the top series and Sprint/Nextel picked it up, there was still no mistaking that a) it was still a Nascar race, and B) it was still the top rung for stock car racing in the good ole US of A

But, what we now call the Izod IndyCar Series (Nee IRL) has been sanctioned by so many different bodies over the years, and having do deal with being the "splinter" series that shattered american open wheel racing that its having an identity crisis is very understandable, in my veiw.

In my simple mind there are only 6 types of race cars.

1) Stock Cars
2) Indy Cars
3) Formula Cars
4) Prototypes
5) GT Cars
6) Dragsters

Now there maybe many many subsets that fit within those 6 like Formula 1 and GP2 cars in #3, or Daytona Prototypes or LMP cars in number 4, but to people like my 76 year old mom or my 10 year old son those 6 catagories pretty much sum it all up and she/he will know roughly what I am talking about when I talk about a race or a crash or something.

Its really all just a name, and all of it comes back to two words: auto racing.

I love them all, as long as it has 4 wheels, a loud engine, and hauls the mail when the loud pedal is pressed, I'm all for it :up:

Can't we just get back to racing and stop arguing about the past?

SarahFan

13th May 2010, 05:45

Easy Drifter has a point. This is the month of May when American OW fans of all kinds should be in their glory. So here's the deal until June -- if you want to bash the IRL or Tony then head on over to CCF. If you want to bash CART or CC or the Amigos then spend your time at TF. If you decide to do it here, you will be on vacation from this forum until, at least, after the I500. No exceptions. Any questions?

I get the IRLvCART thing

but seriously... no Tony bashing.... I thought after getting fired by his sisters he was fair game 24/7/365

ChicagocrewIRL

13th May 2010, 08:25

Fact - CART remained the dominant series till it screwed itself
Fact - tony georges insane spending was the only reason the IRL lasted longer than moments
Fact - With indy and all the cart stars and Teams - the IRL was an utter an total failure which has all but killed the gold laying goose.
Have you noticed that with some decent varied cars indycar will be conceptually CART? Not the IRL?

If you're an original fan of the IRL shouldn't you be heading over to NASCAR now? Your saviour has miserably failed thrown another tanti and run away - your americans and all ovals is long gone. Why would you stay around this series?

CART died because it lacked identity. The IRL survived solely because of its identity, that identity tied to the greatest race on earth.

The fact remains, the IndyCar is still here. CART is gone. ChampCar is gone. Indy Indy Indy Indy.... it's all about Indy.

For me it has never been about Tony George, ovals v non ovals, turbo chargers v. normally aspirated .... It's always been about the cars and drivers that run every Memorial Day Sunday on that very special 2.5 miles of Indiana real estate. And it makes me chuckle to read your rather apoplectic response. Not sure if they teach proper English writing techniques in your first grade class but until they do, it will be very hard to take anything you write, seriously.

It's all about Indy. Nothing less nothing more. Thank you have a nice day LOL

peasant

13th May 2010, 12:21

CART died because it lacked identity. The IRL survived solely because of its identity, that identity tied to the greatest race on earth.

The fact remains, the IndyCar is still here. CART is gone. ChampCar is gone. Indy Indy Indy Indy.... it's all about Indy.

For me it has never been about Tony George, ovals v non ovals, turbo chargers v. normally aspirated .... It's always been about the cars and drivers that run every Memorial Day Sunday on that very special 2.5 miles of Indiana real estate. And it makes me chuckle to read your rather apoplectic response. Not sure if they teach proper English writing techniques in your first grade class but until they do, it will be very hard to take anything you write, seriously.

It's all about Indy. Nothing less nothing more. Thank you have a nice day LOL

I'll take it you've resorted to blatant personal abuse because you've lost the argument.

Edit : New site rules apparently - must not discuss

markabilly

13th May 2010, 13:35

Bye. I am gone.
Carry on with the stupid arguing over the past.
I will stick to F1 and Chit Chat.
You may not care but I suspect others besides me are fed up.
Starter already closed one thread over the constant ----- bickering.
Easy, go easy, not go away... :D

I think it is very important to understand the past, to know why you are in the present, in order to understand where you may be headed.
You must have at least two points to draw a line. But "blaming" one person or another in an endless argument accomplishes nothing

I have never "blamed" anyone for the split in my posts, it happenned and did its damage----and one needs to understand the damage in order to repair it---if such a repair is possible.
The milk is spilt, need to know how it happened to stop it from continuing as well as to be able to answer the ultimate question: knowing if and how it can be fixed or just thrown away.

Given the current econmic situation, my thought is that this year's Indy, is a critical, outcome determinative event for its future

markabilly

13th May 2010, 13:42

But, what we now call the Izod IndyCar Series (Nee IRL) has been sanctioned by so many different bodies over the years, and having do deal with being the "splinter" series that shattered american open wheel racing that its having an identity crisis is very understandable, in my veiw.

bingo!!
at least on that point...it ought to be be "Indycar", not irl or anything else in the current situ

chuck34

13th May 2010, 13:49

I think if they showed up in 96 and blew up the 25-8 in thing in theory, the reality is they couldn't have reached Tony. He would have allowed the 8 fastest CART guys and the other 17 could go pound sand. The harsh reality is anyone dopey enough to create another series in the manner Tony did to "protect" the 500 wasn't a reasonable man to start with...

The fact is that the 25-8 rule was blown up the very next year. In '97 they started 35 cars specifically because it was decided that it wouldn't be fair NOT to include the 33 fastest cars. There were 2 cars not included because they weren't in the points standings that were in the 33 fastest. So that is why I believe that if CART guys had shown up in '96 the whole thing would have blown up.

From everyone's favorite "reliable" source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Indianapolis_500#Post-qualifying_controversy

I know I'm probably flirting with a ban here, but I just feel that the true history must be told. Plus I'm talking more about the history of the 500 not really a IRL vs CART thing. Take mercy on me Starter. :-)

speeddurango

13th May 2010, 14:22

Good for Randy. The next thing is actually starting to "change" the image of the series as a whole to be more acceptable, as how Randy has put it.

SarahFan

13th May 2010, 17:18

hind sight is always 20/20

.....and while there will always be debate on whether CART should have just shown up, or ran the US500 or a handful of other decisions like going public or blatently (maybe illegally) conducted the cash burn prior to bankruptc/sale

what is crystal clear is that the creation of a second series had diluted the sport to below niche, and its going to take time, dedication and $$$$, lots of it, to get the sport to even 1/2 way back to where it was

In the meantime...GO SARAH!...and im going to put a hundy on PT

Mark in Oshawa

13th May 2010, 17:50

Again hindsight being 20/20, wouldn't it have been beter to give him a seat at the table where he would have been 1 vote out of, what 20? There his influence, for good or bad, would have been mitigated, but his ego would have been stroked and placated. But that is my point, there was enough arrogance all around (from TG and the CART board). So to only bash TG is not an accurate version of history. If you (or anyone, not singling you out Mark) want to bash TG, then be fair about it and bash ALL of them. I think that everyone can agree there were plenty of dumb decisions made to go around.

And history also has proven the the guys behind CART and ChampCar also didn't understand the dynamics of the sport, the proof is in where we are right now. Tony Geroge does not have a monopoly on arrogance nor stupidity.

Which is why, perhaps, TG should have been given a seat at the board of CART. He did have control of the most important race by FAR to the sport. Why shouldn't he have been included in the decisions? And as I said earlier, had he been 1 vote out of 20 (or whatever it was) his "stupidity" would have been minimized.

All I can say is Tony knew he wouldn't get a seat at the table. This was all about power, and his ability to use it and run the sport. THAT I think was his goal in the end.

Were the CART board members arrogant? Perhaps...but as history has shown, what was Tony? If not for his parents, he couldn't point to one thing he did on his own that showed he was ready for primetime. CART owners often were successful in other businesses (Hello Roger Penske) and CART at that time was a money making operation and the sport was the equal of NASCAR. There was no doubt they had some right to be proud of what they had managed to build since the split from USAC.

No...There is a lot of blame to go around, but in the end, Tony did what he did. No one MADE him start the IRL, no one MADE him do the 25/8 thing for the first two years, and no on MADE him think he should make the Indy 500 the sole event on the schedule to deserve a seat at the table.

The reality is the 500 had no say in CART because their event wasn't a CART event. Why would he get a seat at the table when he didn't belong at the table. He had EVERY right to make the rules for the event anything he wanted to be, and did with his letting USAC set a different rule for stock blocks. He had EVERY right to everything that happened at that track, and if has just stuck to THAT, I would have applauded him because I think CART would have followed his rules because they needed that 500. What they could NOT do is give him what he wanted, and that was a say in what happened in Long Beach, Toronto, or anywhere else when he had no financial stake in their success; and he had no skin in the game with any of the teams at this point. If he had just created Vision racing, ran the Speedway as he saw fit, in the end he would have had a seat at the table. He instead took the family treasury and created a whole other racing entity, which as Ken/Sarah Fan pointed out:

"what is crystal clear is that the creation of a second series had diluted the sport to below niche, and its going to take time, dedication and $$$$, lots of it, to get the sport to even 1/2 way back to where it was"

In short, CART didn't react well to this interloper, because they had no real reason to either trust his motives, or believe he had a clue of what he wanted. He had no track record of achievement out side the family, and I think they naively thought Mari Hulman would reign the boy in.....It took her 15 years to do it as it turned out...

maxmach

13th May 2010, 18:27

Of course the name should be changed to Indycar. The series has been about Indycars from long before Cart and and still is after the IRL moniker died.
It's simple, the "casual" fan understands what it means (which excludes anyone on this forum), and it just makes sense.

NY2IA

13th May 2010, 18:38

How about setting up a t-shirt stand outside the Indy Speedway and sell both IRL and Indycar shirts. I am guessing far more Indycare shirts will sell. In order to communicate with the casual fan, Indycar goes along way.

chuck34

13th May 2010, 19:02

All I can say is Tony knew he wouldn't get a seat at the table. This was all about power, and his ability to use it and run the sport. THAT I think was his goal in the end.

Were the CART board members arrogant? Perhaps...but as history has shown, what was Tony? If not for his parents, he couldn't point to one thing he did on his own that showed he was ready for primetime. CART owners often were successful in other businesses (Hello Roger Penske) and CART at that time was a money making operation and the sport was the equal of NASCAR. There was no doubt they had some right to be proud of what they had managed to build since the split from USAC.

No...There is a lot of blame to go around, but in the end, Tony did what he did. No one MADE him start the IRL, no one MADE him do the 25/8 thing for the first two years, and no on MADE him think he should make the Indy 500 the sole event on the schedule to deserve a seat at the table.

The reality is the 500 had no say in CART because their event wasn't a CART event. Why would he get a seat at the table when he didn't belong at the table. He had EVERY right to make the rules for the event anything he wanted to be, and did with his letting USAC set a different rule for stock blocks. He had EVERY right to everything that happened at that track, and if has just stuck to THAT, I would have applauded him because I think CART would have followed his rules because they needed that 500. What they could NOT do is give him what he wanted, and that was a say in what happened in Long Beach, Toronto, or anywhere else when he had no financial stake in their success; and he had no skin in the game with any of the teams at this point. If he had just created Vision racing, ran the Speedway as he saw fit, in the end he would have had a seat at the table. He instead took the family treasury and created a whole other racing entity, which as Ken/Sarah Fan pointed out:

"what is crystal clear is that the creation of a second series had diluted the sport to below niche, and its going to take time, dedication and $$$$, lots of it, to get the sport to even 1/2 way back to where it was"

In short, CART didn't react well to this interloper, because they had no real reason to either trust his motives, or believe he had a clue of what he wanted. He had no track record of achievement out side the family, and I think they naively thought Mari Hulman would reign the boy in.....It took her 15 years to do it as it turned out...

Listen all I'm asking is that people that want to demonize TG for things also look at the other side of the coin. I am more than willing to acknowledge that TG made his mistakes, and I'm an original IRL fan. And I think that most IRL fans are the same. I don't think there are too many people in the IRL "camp" that think the man did no wrong. But quite the opposite is true. Die-hard CART fans almost always blame Tony for EVERYTHING, and absolutely REFUSE to admit that perhaps their guys also made mistakes. THAT is what I can't stand. As long as people are willing to see that mistakes are/were made on BOTH sides, I have no problem with people's preferences.

markabilly

13th May 2010, 20:49

Indy is the key and has always been so.
Imagine in 1996, Indiana pases a law that completely bans racing inside the state.
IRL dies a quick death without any question, and CART would not.

but so what?

CART still dies off, albeit, more slowly over several years yet the ultimate result is the same: No more open wheel racing in a major format in the USA.

So Indy should be the focus as the only lifeline or breathing tube left and to do well, it needs positive media stuff----and hate her or love her, that means people like Danica...

to paraphrase as maxmach said "It's simple, the "casual" fan understands what it means (which excludes anyone on this forum), and it just makes sense."

Same goes for Danica--the media and causal fandom focuses on her, so instead of chooping off the head to spite your face.......

Once Indy gets going real strong, then there needs to be a strategy to expand an indy car series that captures the same imagination and casual fan interest, so the causal fan pays attention......

but having other races at indy has always sort of diluted the product, esp nascar that uses the exact same track....(at least the motogp and the F1 cars ran the track "backwards" and only used one corner)

peasant

13th May 2010, 23:52

markabilly

14th May 2010, 00:58

At first I thought Easy Drifter and starter were full of s***. But now I'm starting to think they have a point. This sort of garbage will just help split perspectives enter every thread. Perhaps we need a sticky thread for discussions involving the split, and make that the only place too talk about it, then posters can choose to enter or not - rather than have it be able to enter any thread with 1 inflammatory post.
yeah, Easy does have a point after all.....and so does Starter.
After reveiwing this and your other posts, I think I will join Easy and leave :burnout:

peasant

14th May 2010, 01:32

yeah, Easy does have a point after all.....and so does Starter.
After reveiwing this and your other posts, I think I will join Easy and leave :burnout:

I think your having a crack - but I not sure I get what you're saying ???

DBell

14th May 2010, 02:06

Easy Drifter has a point. This is the month of May when American OW fans of all kinds should be in their glory. So here's the deal until June -- if you want to bash the IRL or Tony then head on over to CCF. If you want to bash CART or CC or the Amigos then spend your time at TF. If you decide to do it here, you will be on vacation from this forum until, at least, after the I500. No exceptions. Any questions?

Perhaps you should make your post a sticky so everyone has a chance to see this.

Mark in Oshawa

14th May 2010, 07:41

Listen all I'm asking is that people that want to demonize TG for things also look at the other side of the coin. I am more than willing to acknowledge that TG made his mistakes, and I'm an original IRL fan. And I think that most IRL fans are the same. I don't think there are too many people in the IRL "camp" that think the man did no wrong. But quite the opposite is true. Die-hard CART fans almost always blame Tony for EVERYTHING, and absolutely REFUSE to admit that perhaps their guys also made mistakes. THAT is what I can't stand. As long as people are willing to see that mistakes are/were made on BOTH sides, I have no problem with people's preferences.

Oh there was mistakes made...but the biggest one I can make is going down this road any further...lol....

Mark in Oshawa

14th May 2010, 07:42

I am just staying away for the most part. I love the 500...but have a hard time biting my tongue at times....soooooooooo...

XNAY on the Georgeay...

NaBUru38

15th May 2010, 02:17

Of course the [sanctioning body] name should be changed to Indycar.
I disagree. It would be incredibly confusing if we hear abour the IndyCar USF2000 Championship or the IndyCar Star Mazda Championship.

In my simple mind there are only 6 types of race cars.

1) Stock Cars
2) Indy Cars
3) Formula Cars
4) Prototypes
5) GT Cars
6) Dragsters

Its really all just a name, and all of it comes back to two words: auto racing.

I love them all, as long as it has 4 wheels, a loud engine, and hauls the mail when the loud pedal is pressed, I'm all for it :up:
What about touring cars and karts?

slorydn1

15th May 2010, 02:48

What about touring cars and karts?

ya caught me on the karts...I forgot about them because they are not on TV...

Touring cars are GT cars (in my simplistic view, anyway...thats the T in GT)

px400r

15th May 2010, 14:21

ya caught me on the karts...I forgot about them because they are not on TV...

Touring cars are GT cars (in my simplistic view, anyway...thats the T in GT)

What about rally cars?

How about sprint cars?

NaBUru38

15th May 2010, 19:07

Touring cars are GT cars (in my simplistic view, anyway...thats the T in GT)
That aren't the same.

Jag_Warrior

16th May 2010, 01:19

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100511/SPORTS0107/5110348/1052/SPORTS01/Bernard-wants-IRL-banished-from-series

and during the month of may no less....

a couple highlights

"We need to blow up IRL," Bernard said. "It needs to be (known as) IndyCar.

"To the purist, (IRL) is a negative acronym. We need to get away from using it."

It's funny that this non-racing guy seems to really "get it", when people who have been in the sport their whole lives can't/haven't. Why keep trying to push a string up a hill in a driving wind? If/when they get a new chassis and engine formula, they should try to leave ALL of the negatives of the recent past behind. Once Ford determined that the Edsel was a failure, they didn't use that name again on a car. While the Mustang, Thunderbird and Taurus keep making comebacks. Duh!

The powers that be in Daytona have (very successfully) marketed the NASCAR brand name. The IndyCar name used to mean something positive and was marketable. IMO, they do need to try to recapture that. But best to wait until they have something to market (2012, or is it 2013 now?). Afterall, Ford killed the Edsel. They didn't just slap a Thunderbird badge on an Edsel and try to sell it to suckers.