Monaco GP Thread

[steveaki13]

On another subject does anyone think it is wrong that Alonso's hard tyres done the whole race, bar 2 laps.

Although they were the harder tyres, we have seen this season the soft tyres last over half a race if need be and the hards are no where near falling apart after a whole race distance.

IMO the tyres need to be a bit more unrealiable in turns of grip.
The races would be a lot better if you could make the gamble Alonso did but by the end of the race you had severly worn tyres and it mean't more action as other drivers would be piled up behind.

There is no challenge if a driver like Alonso has done 77 laps on one set and the other only 40 but they still are at the same pace and cannot use tyre management to gain an advantage.

I still say we should have 4 grades of tyre which you can use when and how you want.
Super Soft 10-15 laps
Soft 20-30 laps
Hard 35-40 laps
Endurance 70+laps

With the advantage of super soft being 3 or 4 seconds a lap compared to endurance and you can gamble on 2 or 3 sprints or a whole race on endurance tyres, depending on what your driving style or strength is.

Because at the moment after 20 laps everyone pits and has no real drop in tyre performance and no chance of overtaking in the dry and so has to just sit there until the end.

[TMorel]

To me, "finishing under the safety car" means the safety car crossed the line with the race cars behind them - not what hapenned today.

but again the rules are vague.
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/6839/fia.html

Look at this rule.....

40.15 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

So again, the SC doesnt have to cross the start finish line to finish under safety car, but how does that differ from when the SC comes in on the last lap and the race ISNT finishing under SC, in both situations the SC pulls in at the same point surely?

[Dr. Krogshöj]

but again the rules are vague.
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/6839/fia.html

Look at this rule.....

40.15 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

So again, the SC doesnt have to cross the start finish line to finish under safety car, but how does that differ from when the SC comes in on the last lap and the race ISNT finishing under SC, in both situations the SC pulls in at the same point surely?

There is a difference. In last year's Australian Grand Prix, the SC pulled in, but there was no "Safety Car in this lap" message, and the yellows were being waved. Today, there was the message, and the green lights were flashing.

[donKey jote]

IMO the tyres need to be a bit more unrealiable in turns of grip.

great idea: deliberately give the pinnacle of motor racing a bit more unreliable tires :dozey:

[Dave B]

There is a difference. In last year's Australian Grand Prix, the SC pulled in, but there was no "Safety Car in this lap" message, and the yellows were being waved. Today, there was the message, and the green lights were flashing.
What he said!

Ross Brawn's screencaps clearly show green flags being waved as Schumacher prepares to overtake, so even if the rules are vague he has justification for his actions and should keep the place.

[Dave B]

Thanks to a poster on another forum (sorry!), here's the last time a race finished under SC - Australia 2009. You can clearly see yellow flags and the SC boards being shown, which was most definately not the case today:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8861/greg4w.jpg

[Tazio]

Anyone care to speculate when this event will have a resolution?
Maybe Damon has been hanging with Kimi and doesn't want to be bothered while having his Ice Cream bar, or spending a penny :p

[donKey jote]

they´ll announce the verdict straight after you´ve shut down and gone back to bed :p

[TMorel]

Dr. Krogshöj / Dave Brockman
But isn't the whole issue that the rules changed between 2009 and 2010 and this seems to have slipped thru the net in that there doesnt seem to be any clearly defined rule for this situation any more.

[fandango]

I think Schumacher and Brawn are right. The rule seems pretty clear to me. It's obvious that the FIA don't want the winner crossing the line behind the safety car - it just doesn't look good on the Monday morning sports pages to see an F1 car trailing a road car to cross the line and win. And that's why there's a distinction between the safety car going in on the last lap and the safety car pulling out of the way, but the race officially finishing behind it.

Greens were waved = racing is on.

[markabilly]

well the answer is clear after all this.

just another reason that ferrari should have hung on, big time, to Brawn (and for that matter to Schuie over kimi)

[Tazio]

On another subject does anyone think it is wrong that Alonso's hard tyres done the whole race, bar 2 laps.

Although they were the harder tyres, we have seen this season the soft tyres last over half a race if need be and the hards are no where near falling apart after a whole race distance.

IMO the tyres need to be a bit more unrealiable in turns of grip.
The races would be a lot better if you could make the gamble Alonso did but by the end of the race you had severly worn tyres and it mean't more action as other drivers would be piled up behind.

There is no challenge if a driver like Alonso has done 77 laps on one set and the other only 40 but they still are at the same pace and cannot use tyre management to gain an advantage.

I still say we should have 4 grades of tyre which you can use when and how you want.
Super Soft 10-15 laps
Soft 20-30 laps
Hard 35-40 laps
Endurance 70+laps

With the advantage of super soft being 3 or 4 seconds a lap compared to endurance and you can gamble on 2 or 3 sprints or a whole race on endurance tyres, depending on what your driving style or strength is.

Because at the moment after 20 laps everyone pits and has no real drop in tyre performance and no chance of overtaking in the dry and so has to just sit there until the end.

Yea, why should anyone including a double world champion have any chance to succeed after making a mistake in practice? I think all the teams should have been issued air rifles and allowed to try shooting Freds tyres out. Something to bring equity to the game! :rotflmao:
Great Idea sport :up:

[fandango]

The thing is - we went camping this weekend, and I watched the race in the campsite bar (yes, had a lovely time, thank you very much), but even I, when I saw the "safety car in this lap" caption, thought "I wonder does that mean they can race for the last few hundred metres..." so you would imagine Ferrari would have at least mentioned to Alonso to be careful.

[markabilly]

Dr. Krogshöj / Dave Brockman
But isn't the whole issue that the rules changed between 2009 and 2010 and this seems to have slipped thru the net in that there doesnt seem to be any clearly defined rule for this situation any more.
good point, but the rule says

40.15 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

but they said, safety car in and turned on the green so the SC was not deployed as the race ends and the race had not ended, until she snorts


fia strikes out, either way

[fandango]

On another subject does anyone think it is wrong that Alonso's hard tyres done the whole race, bar 2 laps.......

Excellent point. Bridgestone should get a bo****king for making tyres that are too durable, but without competition, why would they want to see blowouts and punctures? It's not exactly in their interest.

[TMorel]

markabilly,
I actually think it was an inspired move by Schumi, and I don't really buy Alonso was told to cruise as what was he doing getting all slidey for?

What I'm trying to find out is - assuming today wasnt finished under SC rules - then what is called in the event of the race when it IS finishing under the safety car?
Obviously the safetycar comes in the same as it did today, so do they say "Safetycar in this lap but no overtaking as per 40.15" or do they not even mention the safetycar is coming in, they just get it to peel off as today unannounced? And what are the rest of the official signs? Full course yellows? Or is it like most of the other rules, open to a bit of uncertainty to help aid the show.

Also, why is it taking so long to sort this out? Has Damon spent the last two hours running around the room dancing "Schumi is going DOWN" and laughing and pointing?

[markabilly]

markabilly,
I actually think it was an inspired move by Schumi, and I don't really buy Alonso was told to cruise as what was he doing getting all slidey for?

What I'm trying to find out is - assuming today wasnt finished under SC rules - then what is called in the event of the race when it IS finishing under the safety car?
Obviously the safetycar comes in the same as it did today, so do they say "Safetycar in this lap but no overtaking as per 40.15" or do they not even mention the safetycar is coming in, they just get it to peel off as today unannounced? And what are the rest of the official signs? Full course yellows? Or is it like most of the other rules, open to a bit of uncertainty to help aid the show.

Also, why is it taking so long to sort this out? Has Damon spent the last two hours running around the room dancing "Schumi is going DOWN" and laughing and pointing?

yes, i noticed the same thing and got to thinking:


unfortunatly you may be right--this was about the most exciting thing that was not a crash

On Speed repeats,
the only thing i wonder is the 2 quick repeats on speed, where it looked like alonso got heavy on the gas even before schuie started to hit the gas, and was losing traction. Would be interesting to see if Alonso thought the same thing about "race on" and just blew it with wheel spin (perhaps due to cold and worn out rear tires)

perhaps a quick check on the data from Fred's car might reveal what he was really thinking, ie no different than MS. Indeed, i vaguely recall that massa, webber and vettel were all heavy on the gas, very.


as to your other points, why even have this rule???
it was announced safety car in this lap, and not race finishes under sc

It is very unclear and without the rule, the australian gp was not a problem as pointed out above....but here they do an opposite announcement and hit the
green

[ioan]

Todays decision by the FIA stewards and even more Ferrari's complaint are a disgrace to F1. :down:

[markabilly]

Todays decision by the FIA stewards and even more Ferrari's complaint are a disgrace to F1. :down:
what decision

[donKey jote]

20 sec ?

[donKey jote]

did I not expect that !

Damon´s revenge :s

If anything (big if) p7 would have been half fair. 20 Sec is a joke :down:

[Chaparral66]

Just saw this message from SPEED's Bob Varsha who called the Monaco race in the US:

"Haven't checked (the replay video), though others have pointed it out since. That blinking green means the pace car is coming in, and if it had been any lap but the last one, you would be correct. But the rules state clearly that the final lap of a race is a different situation: the pace car will pull in (to avoid pics of the safety car leading the finish, I guess) and the cars will cross the finish line without overtaking. As Casey Stebgel once said, you could look it up (at fia.com)."

[ioan]

did I not expect that !

Damon´s revenge :s

If anything (big if) p7 would have been half fair. 20 Sec is a joke :down:

I don't think it's Hill's fault, at least I hope it isn't he always looked like a correct person.

It's either the FIA covering up for a cock-up or bending over for Ferrari. :down:

[fandango]

So why did they issue the "safety car in this lap" caption? Surely if they're on the last lap there's no need? For once, I think Schumacher was unfairly penalised. Damon's revenge indeed.....

[markabilly]

Just saw this message from SPEED's Bob Varsha who called the Monaco race in the US:

"Haven't checked (the replay video), though others have pointed it out since. That blinking green means the pace car is coming in, and if it had been any lap but the last one, you would be correct. But the rules state clearly that the final lap of a race is a different situation: the pace car will pull in (to avoid pics of the safety car leading the finish, I guess) and the cars will cross the finish line without overtaking. As Casey Stebgel once said, you could look it up (at fia.com)."
varsha is as stupid as the fia.

[steveaki13]

great idea: deliberately give the pinnacle of motor racing a bit more unreliable tires :dozey:


Yea, why should anyone including a double world champion have any chance to succeed after making a mistake in practice? I think all the teams should have been issued air rifles and allowed to try shooting Freds tyres out. Something to bring equity to the game! :rotflmao:
Great Idea sport :up:

I think you misunderstood me, I used the wrong wording I do not want any driver to suffer, or be at a disadvantage.

My point was less durable tyres, not unreliable. (Wrong wording Sorry)
Because if everyone can make the tyres last a whole race, then why not just let them non stop and just have to pass on track.

I think there would be little or no chance of passing in a dry race if that were the case, but my idea was to have differing levels of durability and letting a driver use his skills or strategy of dealing with hard tyres or really soft tyres to either run a whole race on hard tyres to do what Alonso did, or super softs to allow a driver to sprint.

I was just surprised that Alonso made hard tyres last 77 laps, and fear that with a race that has a SC after 7 or 8 laps then everyone pits and just races in order to the finish.
If the harder tyres now can last a whole race then the stop for soft tyres is a gimmick, I would just prefer to see tyre stops that were needed rather than artifical.

Just my opinion

[ioan]

Just saw this message from SPEED's Bob Varsha who called the Monaco race in the US:

"Haven't checked (the replay video), though others have pointed it out since. That blinking green means the pace car is coming in, and if it had been any lap but the last one, you would be correct. But the rules state clearly that the final lap of a race is a different situation: the pace car will pull in (to avoid pics of the safety car leading the finish, I guess) and the cars will cross the finish line without overtaking. As Casey Stebgel once said, you could look it up (at fia.com)."

Blinking greens now mean SC situation only to avoid the SC in the finish photo shots? WTF next?

[markabilly]

tried the fia website, but can not get in

Stupid is as stupid does....

[steveaki13]

That is a bad decision, it seems the FIA/stewards don't like a bit of crafty enterprise, they need to look at their penalty decisions as well as why during a SC period they put up Green Flags

[markabilly]

my guess is unless the rules have been changed, there is no appeal????

[steveaki13]

Excellent point. Bridgestone should get a bo****king for making tyres that are too durable, but without competition, why would they want to see blowouts and punctures? It's not exactly in their interest.

Yer

We dont need dangerous tyres obivously, but just enough difference in them to create some intriguing and wide ranging strategy, because at the moment in a dry race everyone does the same thing.

[SGWilko]

Technically, the SC was correct in coming in, as that is just adroight protocol. So the Shoe shuld not have overtaken.

However...

The FIA (most likely that bastion of all things brainy - Charly Farly) made the mistake of issuing the SC in this lap note AND putting up green lights/flags.

The just decision in this case would be to reverse Fred/Shoe positions to how they were.

Still, it goes a small way to righting the wrongs of 2004 IYAM. :D

[donKey jote]

because at the moment in a dry race everyone does the same thing.


er well no, actually... Alonso for example did something different today and it paid off.
Oh sorry, I forgot this is exactly what you didn´t like :p

[markabilly]

Technically, the SC was correct in coming in, as that is just adroight protocol. So the Shoe shuld not have overtaken.

However...

The FIA (most likely that bastion of all things brainy - Charly Farly) made the mistake of issuing the SC in this lap note AND putting up green lights/flags.

The just decision in this case would be to reverse Fred/Shoe positions to how they were.

Still, it goes a small way to righting the wrongs of 2004 IYAM. :D
yeah, if he could have only passed hamilton, then no penalty....after all we are talking monaco and ferrari....

[Ent]

I just went back and watched the overtake again, and green flags were clearly being waved when Alonso and Schumacher passed the safety car line. As was posted earlier, in the same situation in Australia last year, yellow flags were being waved all the way to the start/finish line, even though the safety car had pulled in.

If Schumacher has been given a 20 second penalty, I think he'd be within his rights to lodge an appeal based on the flags being waved were incorrect. Green flags mean go racing, yellow flags mean slow down and do not overtake (don't they?).

[markabilly]

I just went back and watched the overtake again, and green flags were clearly being waved when Alonso and Schumacher passed the safety car line. As was posted earlier, in the same situation in Australia last year, yellow flags were being waved all the way to the start/finish line, even though the safety car had pulled in.

If Schumacher has been given a 20 second penalty, I think he'd be within his rights to lodge an appeal based on the flags being waved were incorrect. Green flags mean go racing, yellow flags mean slow down and do not overtake (don't they?).
problem is i do not think there can be a further appeal, but i may be wrong

[Tazio]

I think you misunderstood me, I used the wrong wording I do not want any driver to suffer, or be at a disadvantage.

My point was less durable tyres, not unreliable. (Wrong wording Sorry)
Because if everyone can make the tyres last a whole race, then why not just let them non stop and just have to pass on track.

I think there would be little or no chance of passing in a dry race if that were the case, but my idea was to have differing levels of durability and letting a driver use his skills or strategy of dealing with hard tyres or really soft tyres to either run a whole race on hard tyres to do what Alonso did, or super softs to allow a driver to sprint.

I was just surprised that Alonso made hard tyres last 77 laps, and fear that with a race that has a SC after 7 or 8 laps then everyone pits and just races in order to the finish.
If the harder tyres now can last a whole race then the stop for soft tyres is a gimmick, I would just prefer to see tyre stops that were needed rather than artifical.

Just my opinion

Well F1 tried that and it worked too well. Of course filling a car with gasoline during a race is crazy thinking. Sorry I took a shot at you.

I do have an idea for another race. Why not fit F1 cars to a V-hull boat with paddles, and add a "The US Gran Prix sponsered by Britsih Petroleum" The Aqua F1 contenders can race from Galveston Texas, Fill up at a floating refinery in the Gulf of Mexico,
Swing around Cuba, and finnish in Aruba. Extra points awarded for smuggling Cuban Natoinals to The Home of the Brave.
I even have a nick=name for the course.
The Black Hell

[Rodster]

problem is i do not think there can be a further appeal, but i may be wrong

"Under rule 40.13, which states that "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking," Schumacher has been given a penalty."

Regardless, Schumacher and Brawn have appealed, bravo !
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83686

[Saint Devote]

Disappointed that Jense had mechanical issues - ah well thats also racing! Jensey was really kewl about it - typical Button demeanor and always gracious. Another reason why all his supporters just ADORE him to death :-]

AT least it happened in a race that was not going t be the greatest for him anyway and still only 8 points behind in the title run.

Just superb driver by Markus Webber eh?

Really enjoyed this grand prix and Alonso demonstrated some really superb overtaking moves along the way.

Schumi is from a another era, a great era, and I did enjoy his "pouncing" on Alonso regardless of the the nonsense that has followed - thank god Jenson was not that object of his affection otherwise the Jenson haters here would have been out in full force again - the usual double standard.

In all an enjoyable Monaco Grand Prix.

[ioan]

"Under rule 40.13, which states that "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking," Schumacher has been given a penalty."

The rule doesn't say that this is also the case when the 'Safety car in this lap' and track cleared are issued.
Why call issue the message if the SC situation is maintained.
And why give the green light and wave green flags under SC?



Regardless, Schumacher and Brawn have appealed, bravo !
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83686

The FIA shooting themselves in the foot:


The FIA said the appeal is strictly against the decision, not the penalty itself as drive-throughs cannot be appealed.

I wonder if it was Charlie saying this?
How will they look if the decision is not upheld but the driver is penalized?
Bunch of brainless muppets.

They penalized MS to keep Alonso closer in the title fight (slim chances anyway given how many mistakes he made already and he will also ran out of engines sooner then the others) but they couldn't substantiate the decision, so Mercedes is appealing the decision but the penalty imposed based on the decision can not be appealed?!
Brawn will laugh his socks off if the appeal is upheld.
What a typical mess this is.

[Tazio]

"Under rule 40.13, which states that "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking," Schumacher has been given a penalty."

Regardless, Schumacher and Brawn have appealed, bravo !
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83686
Of course this is due process. Now the FIA will appear benevolent when mike gets p7 back!
I think they have consulted Charlie Whiting. In fact I bet Ross and the real Boss Norbert Haug will be able to provide audio evidence that Ross was on the phone with Charlie as the event unfolded with Charlie giving express permission to race to the line. :p

[Daika]

Rosberg 4 vs Schumacher 2
No matter what the stewards say.

[markabilly]

"Under rule 40.13, which states that "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking," Schumacher has been given a penalty."

Regardless, Schumacher and Brawn have appealed, bravo !
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83686

yes appeals the decision but I do not think they can appeal the penalty, which would stand, so he still finishes 12th--even if he wins the appeal??
I can see a drive through actually imposed during the race as not being appealable, but afterwards?

when race is over?

Excuse me?

Another stupid FIa dumb butt rule used to suppprt another unclear rule, applied in stupid fashion during the race and afterwards

they will look even dumber if they overturn the decision and leave the penalty intact....or if they reverse themselves and remove the penalty and put MS back in front of Fred, that will also look stupid as well.

And with these yahoos, it is all about saving face and being snobbishly superior

so the decision will stand, no doubt how stupid.

[Rodster]

The rule doesn't say that this is also the case when the 'Safety car in this lap' and track cleared are issued.
Why call issue the message if the SC situation is maintained.
And why give the green light and wave green flags under SC?


The way I understand the rule is that if the SC is out on the last lap no one is allowed to pass and that's how the race ends. Why they dropped the green flag is beyond me? It just confused the hell out of everyone.

I think Schu should not be penalized but rather just give the spot back to Alonso and let them finish 6th and 7th.

Here's another explanation of the scenario:

"Michael Schumacher has been slapped with a 20-second penalty after being found guilty of overtaking Fernando Alonso on the final corner of the Monaco Grand Prix, in contravention of a new rule brought into force at the start of the season. The decision means he drops from sixth to 12th.

He nipped past Alonso just as the safety car had left the circuit near the end of the final lap, and despite vigorous arguments from the Mercedes team, the stewards decided the move was illegal as the race was finishing under the safety car."
http://en.espnf1.com/monaco/motorsport/story/17477.html

[gofasterstripes]

What is the purpose of this rule anyway, the way it has been worded would suggest they don't want the cars having that big media moment of crossing the line to occur behind a safety car. Would the SC always pull off at the last corner?
If so the wording they appear to have sent to teams at that moment should have been much clearer, a reversal of the places would have been sufficient i think.

[ioan]

The way I understand the rule is that if the SC is out on the last lap no one is allowed to pass and that's how the race ends. Why they dropped the green flag is beyond me? It just confused the hell out of everyone.

I think Schu should not be penalized but rather just give the spot back to Alonso and let them finish 6th and 7th.

Here's another explanation of the scenario:

"Michael Schumacher has been slapped with a 20-second penalty after being found guilty of overtaking Fernando Alonso on the final corner of the Monaco Grand Prix, in contravention of a new rule brought into force at the start of the season. The decision means he drops from sixth to 12th.

He nipped past Alonso just as the safety car had left the circuit near the end of the final lap, and despite vigorous arguments from the Mercedes team, the stewards decided the move was illegal as the race was finishing under the safety car."
http://en.espnf1.com/monaco/motorsport/story/17477.html

They are keeping quiet about the green flags so I don't buy their crap. Whiting should be kicked off over this shambolic cock-up.

[Rodster]

They are keeping quiet about the green flags so I don't buy their crap. Whiting should be kicked off over this shambolic cock-up.

I agree it's stupid to say we passed a rule at the start of the season that says if the safety car is out on the last lap, everyone hold position and that's how the race ends. Hey look boys the SC is in, green flag, green...green...green !!!!!

Idiots !

[ioan]

I agree it's stupid to say we passed a rule at the start of the season that says if the safety car is out on the last lap, everyone hold position and that's how the race ends. Hey look boys the SC is in, green flag, green...green...green !!!!!

Idiots !

What is worse is that they are not men enough to say that their rules are pants and that the driver was not at fault for racing when the green light were turned on.

[markabilly]

:rotflmao: the very detailed and well reasoned decision in toto:






The Stewards received a report from the Race Director that car Nr 3
Michael Schumacher overtook Fernando Alonso when the Safety Car entered the pit lane at the end of the last lap.


As the overtaking manoeuvre was in breach of Article 40.13 of the 2010 F1 Sporting Regulations, the
Stewards decide to impose a drive through penalty but, as it occurred during the last five laps, 20 seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of car Nr 3.



[/quote]



:rotflmao:


http://fialive.fiacommunications.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/mco-document-37.pdf

[HereIam]

stewards were right to enforce the rules (which are fairly clear), but 20 seconds to Schumi is harsh because of the green flags waving... the stewards around the track got it wrong and I believe even Charlie got it wrong... the caption "safety car in at the end of this lap" was ludicrous since it was the last lap! All in all a cock-up and penalising Schumi for this is ridiculous... re-enstating the normal finishing order would have been sufficient... Alonso 6th and Schumi 7th... having said that, aren't the teams supposed to know the rules? Domenicali did, Brawn didn't... but maybe he tends to forget when it's a Schumacher's mistake... ;-)

G (Ferrari's support and Schumi's supporter when he drove for us...)

[Daika]

stewards were right to enforce the rules (which are fairly clear), but 20 seconds to Schumi is harsh because of the green flags waving... the stewards around the track got it wrong and I believe even Charlie got it wrong... the caption "safety car in at the end of this lap" was ludicrous since it was the last lap! All in all a cock-up and penalising Schumi for this is ridiculous... re-enstating the normal finishing order would have been sufficient... Alonso 6th and Schumi 7th... having said that, aren't the teams supposed to know the rules? Domenicali did, Brawn didn't... but maybe he tends to forget when it's a Schumacher's mistake... ;-)

G (Ferrari's support and Schumi's supporter when he drove for us...)

You are contradicting yourself? Who is wrong Schumacher or stewards arounds the track? Schumacher acted upon the green flag. He didn't raise the flag. In the video replays you clearly see Schumacher driving the car and somebody else raising the flag!!!

[tacksharp]

What's there to debate? The track was green, green means race. Schumacher got screwed.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f155/tacksharp/Miscellaneous2/Monaco_2010_last_corner.jpg

[Chaparral66]

varsha is as stupid as the fia.

That's a bit harsh. And I found the rule:
The new rule - 40.13 - states: "If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."
It's the rule that's stupid. Some have said the green lights refers to just the safety car coming off the track. If the safety car is coming in and the flashing lights are green, it's easily understandable if some thought the race was back on. Just about most other racing I know of is that when you have green lights on the racetrack, that means it's clear to race. At least here in North America, all flags and lights mean the same thing when it comes to red, yellow, and green. No confusion.

[Chaparral66]

The debate now seems to be how stupid the rule rule is, Tacksharp. At the risk of bragging, that's one issue you virtually never see happen in NASCAR or Indy Cars (except for maybe Paul Tracy and his Indy "win")

[ioan]

stewards were right to enforce the rules (which are fairly clear), but 20 seconds to Schumi is harsh because of the green flags waving... the stewards around the track got it wrong and I believe even Charlie got it wrong... the caption "safety car in at the end of this lap" was ludicrous since it was the last lap! All in all a cock-up and penalising Schumi for this is ridiculous... re-enstating the normal finishing order would have been sufficient... Alonso 6th and Schumi 7th... having said that, aren't the teams supposed to know the rules? Domenicali did, Brawn didn't... but maybe he tends to forget when it's a Schumacher's mistake... ;-)

G (Ferrari's support and Schumi's supporter when he drove for us...)

Anything about the green flags being waved?
How clear is to penalize a driver for racing under full course green?!

Your last line gives everything away.

[markabilly]

That's a bit harsh. And I found the rule:
The new rule - 40.13 - states: "If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."
It's the rule that's stupid. Some have said the green lights refers to just the safety car coming off the track. If the safety car is coming in and the flashing lights are green, it's easily understandable if some thought the race was back on. Just about most other racing I know of is that when you have green lights on the racetrack, that means it's clear to race. At least here in North America, all flags and lights mean the same thing when it comes to red, yellow, and green. No confusion.

actually as some have suggested, the rule is to make a "real racing finish" for the media and sponsors as though the race is not ending on a yellow.


So it is the same as real live head to head, knock them on their butt racing, but just no passing allowed...why did not NASCAR think of that...save all those extra laps behind the pace car, for that one last live racing lap....



perhaps it should be called a "fake real racing finish" show for the entertainment, like in professional werstling....
:rolleyes:


or maybe do it like Nascar where the last lap is live racing, even if they have to make a dozen extra laps behind the pace car before going green

anyway looks like the FIA been outed on this one :vader:

[ioan]

What's there to debate? The track was green, green means race. Schumacher got screwed.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f155/tacksharp/Miscellaneous2/Monaco_2010_last_corner.jpg

Exactly.
However take a look at the FIA press release, they strangely forgot to tackle the green lights aspect of the problem.

[Rodster]

What is worse is that they are not men enough to say that their rules are pants and that the driver was not at fault for racing when the green light were turned on.

What's even worse than that is that they make the rules but they don't know how they work or how to apply them. The FIA should issue a statement and say it was a mistake by the race director.

And the new 2010 rules clearly state that if the SC car is out on the last lap that is how the race will end, but the green flag was incorrectly dropped. The race should have ended under yellow. Schumacher was penalized incorrectly therefore he finishes the race in 7th. That's how they should handle it. But since it's the FIA we're talking about they will do whatever face saving they can come up with other than telling the truth and doing the right thing.

This is where Jean Todt should step in and do the right thing.

[Tazio]

The debate now seems to be how stupid the rule rule is, Tacksharp. At the risk of bragging, that's one issue you virtually never see happen in NASCAR or Indy Cars (except for maybe Paul Tracy and his Indy "win")Hey Chap' nice post. I’ve read some pretty obtuse arguments on "other racing series" Forums. I'm guessing that the principals are done arguing and the deal has been struck to give Mike back p7 Which is probably a fair penalty for his contravention of a really clearly documented rule for this series, It's only the people that live their lives so absurdly vicariously through the internet that are still fighting.

[ioan]

actually as some have suggested, the rule is to make a "real racing finish" for the media and sponsors as though the race is not ending on a yellow.


So it is the same as real live head to head, knock them on their butt racing, but just no passing allowed...why did not NASCAR think of that...save all those extra laps behind the pace car, for that one last live racing lap....



perhaps it should be called a "fake real racing finish" show for the entertainment, like in professional werstling....
:rolleyes:


or maybe do it like Nascar where the last lap is live racing, even if they have to make a dozen extra laps behind the pace car before going green

anyway looks like the FIA been outed on this one :vader:

You are right, this only points to what a big pile of crap F1 has become, it's now part of the entertainment industry and motorsport is just the disguise for a show where Guys like Schumacher are not welcome anymore because racing is not important only classifications and championship suspense count now.

[Robinho]

there is a clear contradiction in the rules - if the track is still under caution then the safety car will pull in on the final lap and the cars will drove to the finish line (seems pointless, why not follow the safety car over the line)

in this case the track was cleared and the track was clear to race, the safety car came in, yet there was only the end of the lap to complete.

under the new safety car rules you can pass before the line and as the track was green it seems clear that Michael made a great opportunitistic pass.

if they'd kept the track under waved yellows and SC boards and neutralised the race then it would have been different, but everyone was racing, why was Alonso sideways out of the hairpin and gunning it to the last corner if he wasn't racing.

stupid rules = stupid consequences and for once I hope Schumi wins his appeal and gets the place back

[ioan]

What's even worse than that is that they make the rules but they don't know how they work or how to apply them. The FIA should issue a statement and say it was a mistake by the race director.

And the new 2010 rules clearly state that if the SC car is out on the last lap that is how the race will end, but the green flag was incorrectly dropped. The race should have ended under yellow. Schumacher was penalized incorrectly therefore he finishes the race in 7th. That's how they should handle it. But since it's the FIA we're talking about they will do whatever face saving they can come up with other than telling the truth and doing the right thing.

This is where Jean Todt should step in and do the right thing.

To have rules that are badly written happens to everyone, what is important is to be able to say that they are wrong and need to be improved or changed completely.

I remember back in the days of Max, the FIA president did appeal one of the stewards decisions and overturned their ruling, I wonder if Todt will step up to the plate or not. However if he does it then LdM will go crazy and accuse him of favoritism towards Brawn and Schumacher.

[Roamy]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[N. Jones]

If the rules state otherwise then I doubt he "got screwed". So far the stewards rulings have been quite fair and I don't see any problem with their ruling.

[tacksharp]

That's a bit harsh. And I found the rule:
The new rule - 40.13 - states: "If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."
It's the rule that's stupid. Some have said the green lights refers to just the safety car coming off the track. If the safety car is coming in and the flashing lights are green, it's easily understandable if some thought the race was back on.

The rule you've stated is not stupid, it simply explains that when the race ends under full-course yellow, the safety car will enter the pits instead of staying on track, but it's still a full-course yellow.

What would be stupid is if a green flag seen by a driver before the start/finish line does NOT mean "race." I can't believe that would be true. If the person directing the flags made the mistake of going green when it should have stayed yellow, the driver should not be penalized for that mistake. It seems to me the track officials made the mistake and Schumacher is getting penalized for it.

[ioan]

stupid rules = stupid consequences and for once I hope Schumi wins his appeal and gets the place back

Can't do that.
Under the FIA rules the drive through penalty can not be appealed, only the decision, which is another idiotic rule.

[ioan]

If the rules state otherwise then I doubt he "got screwed". So far the stewards rulings have been quite fair and I don't see any problem with their ruling.

And you swear you don't dislike Schumacher and never disliked him?!

[jens]

Schumacher's move really the moment of the day. :up: :rotflmao: He also had the fastest pitstop time of all, which is a rightful achievement for him! If so far it wasn't clear, then finally today we saw a bit of that real "old Schumi". :D That's why he is good for F1 - he tries things that no-one else even has an idea of doing!

[Rodster]

Here's another reason why the SC/Green Flag issue is stupid and I don't blame Schu for overtaking Fred. Picture yourself as a driver, you see a green flag and worry about getting rear ended by someone who also sees a Green Flag and hits the gas.

[SGWilko]

Here's another reason why the SC/Green Flag issue is stupid and I don't blame Schu for overtaking Fred. Picture yourself as a driver, you see a green flag and worry about getting rear ended by someone who also sees a Green Flag and hits the gas.

Fear not, Kimi is not racing in F1 at Monaco any more.........

[gm99]

Not a Schuey fan, but the stewards' ruling is unfair, IMO. At worst, it was an unclear situation, caused to no small degree by the waving of the green flags, so if the stewards were of the opinion that no passing had been allowed, they should just have reversed the overtaking maneuver and given Alonso 6th and Schuey 7th place rather than impose a 20-sec-penalty.

[Rodster]

The decision bears a striking resemblance to the penalty issued at Spa in 2008 to Hamilton. Gaining an unfare advantage too close to the end of the race for a drive through to be issued. IMO Alonso was caught napping just like Kimi but hey thats life and the FIA have once again altered the final standing via portacabin... :)

According to Fred and Ferrari they said were well aware of the no passing rule on the last lap if the SC was out, which it was.

[Rodster]

Not a Schuey fan, but the stewards' ruling is unfair, IMO. At worst, it was an unclear situation, caused to no small degree by the waving of the green flags, so if the stewards were of the opinion that no passing had been allowed, they should just have reversed the overtaking maneuver and given Alonso 6th and Schuey 7th place rather than impose a 20-sec-penalty.

Rumours are according to a comment in another thread that's probably whats going to happen. And it should !

[F1boat]

I am very happy with the race, as always, it was exciting in Monaco. Hill the donkey of the race with the idiotic decision.

[Rollo]

The rule you've stated is not stupid, it simply explains that when the race ends under full-course yellow, the safety car will enter the pits instead of staying on track, but it's still a full-course yellow.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 2-2010.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/65EE8F15945D0941C12576C7005308AE/$FILE/1-2010%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2010-02-2010.pdf)
40.7
With the following exceptions, overtaking is forbidden until the cars reach the first safety car line after the safety car has returned to the pits.

And even if the race had ended under a full course green, the truth is that you're still not allowed to overtake until you cross the "first safety car line", which at Monaco is the finish line in this case.

It makes sense particularly at Monaco because most of the track is a series of blind corners. A driver with his head probably not more than a yard above the road, has no hope of seeing what's around the corners.

[HereIam]

it was the stewards' mistake, on the track... they shouldn't have been waving the green flags... and the message on the screen saying the SC was going to be in was mad... that's why I said it was harsh to penalise Schumi, even though Domenicali seemed to know the rules and Brawn and the rest of the drivers didn't... not the drivers' fault, since they rely on the team's advice and the situation was indeed confusing... in doubt, why overtake? Hill only did his job...

[SGWilko]

There is a new rule, which allows drivers to pass at a restart once they have passed the safety car line, which is located before the start line.

But there is an exception to that rule, which covers the closing stages of the race.

Article 40.13 of the FIA F1 Sporting Regulations states, “If the race ends while the safety car is deployed, it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.”

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/

[ioan]

According to Fred and Ferrari they said were well aware of the no passing rule on the last lap if the SC was out, which it was.

Ferrari are the team who got things wrong most of the times since Todt and Brawn left, I have a doubt they would only be right by luck nowadays.

[ioan]

Rumours are according to a comment in another thread that's probably whats going to happen. And it should !

No way. The penalty can not be appealed or overturned, it's in the FIA rules.
Somehow, strangely, the decision can be appealed but not the penalty because it was imposed as a drive through which in normal cases is served and can not be undone.

[ioan]

it was the stewards' mistake, on the track... they shouldn't have been waving the green flags... and the message on the screen saying the SC was going to be in was mad...

These are all the race direction's errors, the same guy who then walks in to the stewards and says they have to investigate the incident and punish the driver, knowing full well that it were his own wrong actions that triggered the action on track.

Max is gone but as long as his minnows, aka Charlie Whiting, are around there is no way forward for F1.

[tacksharp]

With the following exceptions, overtaking is forbidden until the cars reach the first safety car line after the safety car has returned to the pits.

And even if the race had ended under a full course green, the truth is that you're still not allowed to overtake until you cross the "first safety car line", which at Monaco is the finish line in this case.

It makes sense particularly at Monaco because most of the track is a series of blind corners. A driver with his head probably not more than a yard above the road, has no hope of seeing what's around the corners.

Ah, I think I understand the penalty now. I understand why the whole track has to show green at the same time: so the guys in back know that the guy in front is racing at full speed again (this is aside from the point that the track should not have gone green in this case). The teams and drivers are responsible for knowing where the "first safety car line" is, therefore if it is the start/finish line at Monaco, then Mercedes and Schumacher should have known it, and the penalty is justified.


With regard to the penalty given to Michael, we believed that the track had gone green and the race was not finishing under a safety car when article 40.13 clearly would have applied. The reason for the safety car had been removed, the FIA had announced 'Safety Car in this lap' early on lap 78 and the track had been declared clear by race control. This was further endorsed when the marshals showed green flags and lights after safety car line one.

Brawn doesn't believe the first safety car line is the start/finish line. Do you actually know for a fact that it is the start/finish line?

[Mia 01]

Can't do that.
Under the FIA rules the drive through penalty can not be appealed, only the decision, which is another idiotic rule.

Right!
This means that whatever the rulings will be, the point table will stand as it is this evening.

I´m afraid that MS could´t help himself.

[markabilly]

The decision bears a striking resemblance to the penalty issued at Spa in 2008 to Hamilton. Gaining an unfare advantage too close to the end of the race for a drive through to be issued. IMO Alonso was caught napping just like Kimi but hey thats life and the FIA have once again altered the final standing via portacabin... :)


more like the lollipop man raising his stick with hamilton....so quick to excuse, you and Wilco were....and no penalty for hamilton.........except the difference is this time it was the fia raising the stick and waving the green flag

and now they are saying no no, it is the pseudo real race finish rule, complete with waving green flags...... :beer:

yes, i get it now and

now i understand, just needed to get the old tin foil cap adjusted just right and another slug down... :beer:

even the can not appeal the penalty but can appeal the decision, win and change nothing rule....makes even more sense :beer:

[Saint Devote]

The Schumi issue is really being blown out of all proportion. And this really was not a good weekend for Alonso, but he is third and only 3 points behind in the title race. This season still has a far way to go as well.

Anyone can make an error and whilst Alonso made a BIG one in practice and was caught napping by Schumi - definitely NOT the drive of a champion, the rules are once again illuminated to show how ridiculous they are at the moment and how ineptly the sport is being governed - or rather nannied, which is even worse.

It was not too long ago that a team would have had a spare car and Fernando could have jumped into that and qualified.

Instead we had one of the best drivers in the world eliminated and this prevented fans from seeing him race at the front. All in the name of "cost-cutting". Pathetic.

[Mia 01]

Great drive today Mark, you owned.

Congratulations to both drivers in Force India.

Alonso donkey of the race.

[race aficionado]

Well, this is our present F1:
A very expensive parade where an ending was spiced up by good ol' Maiki Schumacher.

What I did enjoy today was at the beginning seeing Alonso pass other cars after the tunnel and then of course at the end the old fox does his thing, F1 rules show their unpredictability and the F1 forum is lit up with excitement.

And it is much more than I can say about my man Juan at Nascar today so I am hanging out today with my F1 friends to see how this mess is sorted out - or not.
:s mokin:

[ioan]

...so I am hanging out today with my F1 friends to see how this mess is sorted out - or not.
:s mokin:

Time helps forget everything. This is how the big mistakes get brushed under the carpet by those at the top of every hierarchy.

[markabilly]

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/65EE8F15945D0941C12576C7005308AE/$FILE/1-2010%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2010-02-2010.pdf
40.7
With the following exceptions, overtaking is forbidden until the cars reach the first safety car line after the safety car has returned to the pits.

And even if the race had ended under a full course green, the truth is that you're still not allowed to overtake until you cross the "first safety car line", which at Monaco is the finish line in this case.

It makes sense particularly at Monaco because most of the track is a series of blind corners. A driver with his head probably not more than a yard above the road, has no hope of seeing what's around the corners.


Alread answered
And Note: if Massa had NOT Been hard on it, he would have been passed by Hamilton

Rosberg also nearly passed fred as well if you look carefully.

And the video clearly shows where the white line for the safety car, which is right after MS began to pass Fred.
Sorry.

okay let me think, where in the document does it say "safety car line"


and the other choice is to beleive ross brawn:


no brainer
i believe ross this time


or if you want to see the line line and how hard all the cars were accelerating on it--Indeed hamilton was GONE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qQNp1h2s6g&feature=player_embedded

look fast it will probably be gone

goodnight


did I mention about Massa exiting and being way over the line for the pit lane exit, something NOT even investigated?

What happenned to Rubens and his little toss?
Anything?

[gloomyDAY]

I went to the shooting range before the race finished and just got back home.

Incredible! Fight, Red Bull, fight. I'm absolutely happy with the 1-2. I smell a WCC and WDC title for the team. I can smell it baby.

Schumacher finally got a taste of his own medicine. What goes around...

[truefan72]

..wait, now i am confused. I would like clarification as to where the first safety car line is before fully condemning MSC and Brawn.

Overall, the race was processional as expected. Webber was outstanding though and all the turmoil behind him did not bother him one bit. Kubica finished a very strong third and I am costively surprised and glad that the Renault is shoiwng some good form. Actually come to think of it it was a Renault 1-2-3 in terms of engines in their de-facto home race so good for them. Massa drove a solid race and Hamilton an unspectacular but decent points drive. Alonso did well to come from p24, and MSC Rosberg were right around where they belong.

Off to turkey!

[Saint Devote]

Incredible! Fight, Red Bull, fight. I'm absolutely happy with the 1-2. I smell a WCC and WDC title for the team. I can smell it baby.

Schumacher finally got a taste of his own medicine. What goes around...

It is always risky in motor racing to count one's chickens.

What are you referring to that Schumi etc?

[Roamy]

..wait, now i am confused. I would like clarification as to where the first safety car line is before fully condemning MSC and Brawn.

Overall, the race was processional as expected. Webber was outstanding though and all the turmoil behind him did not bother him one bit. Kubica finished a very strong third and I am costively surprised and glad that the Renault is shoiwng some good form. Actually come to think of it it was a Renault 1-2-3 in terms of engines in their de-facto home race so good for them. Massa drove a solid race and Hamilton an unspectacular but decent points drive. Alonso did well to come from p24, and MSC Rosberg were right around where they belong.

Off to turkey!

you will get all of the clarification you need shortly just keep watching the sites. Without knowing for certain it is my belief that you cannot pass before start finish and the race was over at that point.

[markabilly]

you will get all of the clarification you need shortly just keep watching the sites. Without knowing for certain it is my belief that you cannot pass before start finish and the race was over at that point.
a year or two ago, that was right, but due to certain reasons mostly having to do with once the safety car was in, the leader doing all sorts of erratic things until the start finish line (like slowing down abruptly and then taking off and so on), the rule was changed to force him to take off or get passed.

In theory makes for cleaner starts

so line is drawn around the area right after the pit entrance

can be seen in the video I posted

[Ent]

The "first safety car line" is not the start/finish line, but the white line clearly seen on the photo below that had already been posted. Vettel's front wing is pretty much on the line in the photo. This is a part of the new rules this year and it is the reason why Hamilton was not penalised for running Webber off the road in China in the last corner after a safety car, well before the start/finish line. Hamilton was allowed to pass before the start/finish line because the "first safety car line" is usually at or just before the pitlane entrance, not the start/finish line. So, there is definitely a precedent for overtaking before the start/finish line (but after the "first safety car line"), so Shumacher's use of the line was valid in that respect.

This all brings us back to the fact it was the last lap and, for who knows what reason, green flags were being shown despite there being a specific rule for finishing under the safety car. If green flags were shown, then the safety car legitimately came in on the last lap and the race did not finish under safety car conditions, therefore the "finishing under safety car" rule did not apply and Schumacher's overtake was valid. If they were finishing under the safety car yellow flags would have been shown all the way to the start/finish line, as in Australia 2009.

What it looks like is the FIA intended to finish under the safety car, but someone put out the order to wave the green flags. The FIA should give themselves a 20 second penalty, move Shumacher back behind Alonso, but give no further penalties.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f155/tacksharp/Miscellaneous2/Monaco_2010_last_corner.jpg

[CNR]

Q:in this image the full course yellow is off on the lap counter do they get the info from race control center
http://i42.tinypic.com/13yib6d.jpg

[Chaparral66]

I have a much better understanding of the rule now, but I still think it is very poorly administrated; if indeed the race officials wanted the race to end in a safety period, then there should be no green lights or green flags waving anywhere, regardless of whether the safety car in on track or not. It's ridiculous. Keep it yellow so everyone is on the same page as to what's happening. I've been told that Schuey and his team should know what the rules are and that is true; but it's also true that the rules change every year, some almost arbitrarily, and with the way this rule was worked today it's no wonder there was confusion and multiple interpretations of it. Bottom line here for me is that Schuey should be given back his 7th place position, and F1 needs to make this rule simpler in concept which would make it easier to enforce.

[gloomyDAY]

What are you referring to that Schumi etc?He's no longer in the scarlet car and no longer gets favored.

Mike played fair, unlike Monaco 2006, and got screwed.

[Valve Bounce]

It was not too long ago that a team would have had a spare car and Fernando could have jumped into that and qualified.

Instead we had one of the best drivers in the world eliminated and this prevented fans from seeing him race at the front. All in the name of "cost-cutting". Pathetic.

Actually, this was all the brain child of one Max Mosley, the same Max that you've been lauding; the same Max that the rest of us despised.

[gloomyDAY]

APPEAL!!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83686

Good for Mercedes. I bet Alonsita is ripping down doors over this FIAsco.

[i_max2k2]

Adds a twist -

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/392974-over-the-hill-michael-schumacher-ridiculously-penalised-in-monaco


In reality, however, section 40.11 applies “When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be displayed on the timing monitors and the car's orange lights will be extinguished.” This is exactly what happened in Monaco.

From this point on, the following applies “As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.” The cars were racing; the race did not end under safety car conditions.

[race_director]

I know one thing for sure OLD MSC is bck. other drivers watch out :)

[Tazio]

APPEAL!!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83686

Good for Mercedes. I bet Alonsita is ripping down doors over this FIAsco.Since a 20 sec drive through is not reversible even if Mike possessed by the spirit of
Mercedes greatest racing driver Rudolf Caracciola,
have a Ménage à trois with Harry Houdini, and win the appeal,
my guess is Fred doesn't actually give a flying *u**!! :eek:
Of course you would know better because ???

[gloomyDAY]

Since a 20 sec drive through is not reversible even if Mike possessed by the spirit of
Mercedes greatest racing driver Rudolf Caracciola,
have a Ménage à trois with Harry Houdini, and win the appeal,
my guess is Fred doesn't actually give a flying *u**!! :eek:
Of course you would know better because ???I know the appeal is futile, but I think you're missing the point. Fine, Mike doesn't get the place back, but at least Mercedes aren't afraid to speak out against such a stupid decision. Teams' should have the cajones to speak up when something unjust has happened to them on track.

Also, I don't know whether or not Alonsita had to change his panties after seeing that red helmet whizz on by, but you don't know that either.

[F1boat]

Hopefully Todt can make things right, but he has to fight with the horrid rules which Mr. Striptease made.

[Tazio]

I know the appeal is futile, but I think you're missing the point. Fine, Mike doesn't get the place back, but at least Mercedes aren't afraid to speak out against such a stupid decision. Teams' should have the cajones to speak up when something unjust has happened to them on track.

Also, I don't know whether or not Alonsita had to change his panties after seeing that red helmet whizz on by, but you don't know that either.
I haven't missed the point.
And even if Mike got the position and Fred stopped on track,
let every car he started behind pass,
he would still be whipping Mikes punk-^$$ in WDC points.
Plus I'm a big fan of Mike.
Is there a subliminal message I missed?

[Big Ben]

There does seem to be abit of a mix up here over the rules, and the stewards IMO have messed this up. Martin Brundle said on a couple of ocassions during the race that as soon as the safety car crosses the first line and the green lights come on, the drivers are free to race. On the last lap he commented that the Red Bull mechanics were celebrating prematurely as Webber could still be overtaken by Vettel between the pit entry and the start/finish line.

It'll be interesting to see what the official statement says from the FIA considering Ross Brawn had the evidence to support his claim within minutes of the decision. I would like to see the decision reversed today and seeing as this is a new FIA in effect, we might just see it.. :)

I guess he couldn't be suspected of doing his job, can he? wait up people, don't leave! it's not over yet. They can still race for 100 m and we still have some commercials to air. It's all so super exciting... only on... I don't really know... BBC?

[Tazio]

Maybe I should retract my last post.
I understand now that Mike's Karma with Fred, and the
Monaco Feng shui became unbalanced in light of:

Four years ago in Monaco Schumacher was demoted to the back of the grid
after feigning an accident in qualifying,
in doing so blocking Alonso from claiming pole position.

Since Fred went on to win a closely contested, down to having the championship decided in the last race
His second consecutive beat-down/WDC
He has suddenly lost his nerve mid-season when he has other legitimate contenders to deal with.
I think your sig suggests your hero is the one in need of a diaper change at this particular moment.
(following your twisted logic)

Or is it because Mike is such a stand up guy?

[RMLCruzeing82]

ive never really been a fan of MS but do respect him and i do feel the penalty was a bit harsh. 6th to 12th not right :(

[ArrowsFA1]

There does seem to be abit of a mix up here over the rules, and the stewards IMO have messed this up.
One thing's for sure; the rules covering this type of situation do not appear to be clear. Schumacher shouldn't be penalised for there being an unclear rule.

I thought if the race finished behind the safety car then there was no passing. End of story. But if that was the case then why does the SC pull into the pits? Why were green, not yellow, flags shown?

A bit of a pickle for the FIA.

[SGWilko]

did I mention about Massa exiting and being way over the line for the pit lane exit, something NOT even investigated?

Hey bily

It was brought up in the commentary, but I think no penalty was given or even considered is because he did not actually cross the line.

[SGWilko]

Adds a twist -

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/392974-over-the-hill-michael-schumacher-ridiculously-penalised-in-monaco

And rule 40.13 or whatever nomenclature it is, overides that rule.....

It really is not a difficult concept to grasp.

[SGWilko]

Indeed, the SC should have led the pole car across the line to end the race rather than pull in 400 yards before the start/finish line and cause confusion. The green flag instructs the drivers that the race is now under way, so the FIA have made a real balls up here IMO. As I said on another thread, it was a similar scenario in Oz 2009 when Button had the hold off Barrichello between the pit entry and the line. Its going to be an interesting appeal.. Watch this space.. :)

No, because the rule that MSc fell foul of states that, if the SC remains out on final lap, it will pull into pits before the end of the race and the cars will complete the race to finish line WITHOUT OVERTAKING.

I've said it before, all the pretty ladies could be waving their undies instead of flags, but it DOES NOT CHANGE THE RULE.

[ShiftingGears]

What a stupid rule! It shouldn't matter if it's the last lap or not, if the safety car is in and they're past the safety car line, then it's racing conditions. Otherwise leave the safety car out and just admit to everyone that noone wants to see the safety car finish, and admit that for the most part controlling everyones pace over a whole lap and artificially bunching the field up has absolutely nothing to do with safety.

[SGWilko]

What a stupid rule! It shouldn't matter if it's the last lap or not, if the safety car is in and they're past the safety car line, then it's racing conditions. Otherwise leave the safety car out and just admit to everyone that noone wants to see the safety car finish, and admit that for the most part controlling everyones pace over a whole lap and artificially bunching the field up has absolutely nothing to do with safety.

If you think about the logic behind the rule it makes sense.

Last lap, last few metres to the line - do you want everyone trying banzai moves to gain a place and risk carnage?

Maybe you do, but I guess the underwriters and lawyers who advise on rule making don't.

[HereIam]

And rule 40.13 or whatever nomenclature it is, overides that rule.....

It really is not a difficult concept to grasp.

No, it's not very difficult at all... seems to me that Domenicali can read English and Brawn can't... :)

[ShiftingGears]

If you think about the logic behind the rule it makes sense.

Last lap, last few metres to the line - do you want everyone trying banzai moves to gain a place and risk carnage?

Maybe you do, but I guess the underwriters and lawyers who advise on rule making don't.

If they don't want that happening they should leave the safety car out.

[SGWilko]

If they don't want that happening they should leave the safety car out.

There is no need to keep the SC out, because of the existence of rule 40.13!

[SGWilko]

If that is indeed the rule I think the marshalls and race control should be spoken to about using the green flag system when it seems it sent out an incorrect message. I think the FIA should have given the position back to Alonso and not given Schumacher such a harsh penalty considering their actions caused the confusion. The drivers should have had their positions swapped and an apology should have been issued IMO.. :)

Yes, but there is sadly no such thing as a perfect world......

There is a case that the Stewards made an error by instructing the marshals to put out the greens etc, but, like I say, the rule is totally unambiguous - if the SC is still out on the last lap, it will pull in and overtaking is not permitted.

When I first watched the race, I thought 'what a great move by the shoe' - and it was truly inspired, but the rule is clear. I would much rather Onslo lose the points, but rules is rules.....

[Sonic]

If that is indeed the rule I think the marshalls and race control should be spoken to about using the green flag system when it seems it sent out an incorrect message. I think the FIA should have given the position back to Alonso and not given Schumacher such a harsh penalty considering their actions caused the confusion. The drivers should have had their positions swapped and an apology should have been issued IMO.. :)

Rational. Well thought out. Fair.

It'll never happen! :D

[fandango]

No, because the rule that MSc fell foul of states that, if the SC remains out on final lap, it will pull into pits before the end of the race and the cars will complete the race to finish line WITHOUT OVERTAKING.

Actually, the exact wording of rule 40.13 is:
If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.


"If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed... " It contradicts itself. How can the race end while the safety car is deployed? It should say, "if the final lap begins while the safety car is deployed"

[Spiderman]

If they don't want that happening they should leave the safety car out.

Maybe they bring it in, because they want the winner crossing the line first an and not the safetycar.
So it all make sense!

[Saint Devote]

No, it's not very difficult at all... seems to me that Domenicali can read English and Brawn can't... :)

Oh yeah matey?

:vader: How many championships has Domenicali won?

[Valve Bounce]

If that is indeed the rule I think the marshalls and race control should be spoken to about using the green flag system when it seems it sent out an incorrect message. I think the FIA should have given the position back to Alonso and not given Schumacher such a harsh penalty considering their actions caused the confusion. The drivers should have had their positions swapped and an apology should have been issued IMO.. :)

...........by the Marshalls. Now we have a situation whereby it can be asked whether the actions of Marshalls in any race condition/situation whatsoever overides The Rules. My opinion is YES!

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe they bring it in, because they want the winner crossing the line first an and not the safetycar.
So it all make sense!

The point here is, of course, if the conditions on the track merits the presence of the safety car on the course (for whatever reason like heavy rain, or debris on the track, or track partially blocked by damaged car), it is sensible to leave the SC on the track until all cars cross the Finish Line and are safely back in the pits. So that argument hardly holds any water.

[havk]

IMHO Schumacher should remain 6 th place. If there had been still yellow flags it'd have meant race is still on SC rules. But when green flags were waved this means SC is out. So the race wasn't ended when SC was deployed and 40.13 is no longer valid. That's my interpretation. In fact the rules are not clear and need to be changed.

[Mia 01]

A rule is a rule, we don´t have to like it.

One good thing is that MS move has further increased the insecure feeling I think Alonso grooves moore and moore.

He was hired to bring the WCC and WDC, well wee will see.

[HereIam]

Oh yeah matey?

:vader: How many championships has Domenicali won?

all the ones Brawn won with Ferrari... I suspect it was the Dom reading the strategy for him... :)

[SGWilko]

Actually, the exact wording of rule 40.13 is:
If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.


"If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed... " It contradicts itself. How can the race end while the safety car is deployed? It should say, "if the final lap begins while the safety car is deployed"

For the SC to not be deployed on the final lap it would have to come in on the penultimate lap.

[ArrowsFA1]

Andrew Benson's take on the rule and the ruling:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/05/why_schumacher_broke_the_rules.html

[markabilly]

Andrew Benson's take on the rule and the ruling:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/05/why_schumacher_broke_the_rules.html
he was wrong :down:

if hamilton (or jensen) had passed massa, he would be saying the opposite

[markabilly]

No, because the rule that MSc fell foul of states that, if the SC remains out on final lap, it will pull into pits before the end of the race and the cars will complete the race to finish line WITHOUT OVERTAKING.

I've said it before, all the pretty ladies could be waving their undies instead of flags, but it DOES NOT CHANGE THE RULE.

you change your tune as it suits you.

When hamilton did his number after the MAC stickman raised his stick, you had no problem with hamilton nearly running into vettel.

when the FIA waves the green flag, and it was MS passing, you jump up and down and cry FOUL!!!!!

[markabilly]

Adds a twist -

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/392974-over-the-hill-michael-schumacher-ridiculously-penalised-in-monaco


has an interesting comment


Hill, the man who ended his career by pathetically retiring his fully functioning car because he was “so far down the field, there was little point in me carrying on” in his farewell race. Hill, the man who was denied his first world championship by the win-at-all-costs ruthlessness of Schumacher. Hill, the steward?

To be fair, Hill was only a quarter of the panel that decided if a breach had occurred and the penalty to be applied, but we have seen that the former drivers have added a moderating influence to the normally draconian stewards panel.

Reprimands have been the penalty of choice so far this year, and while it can be argued that these penalties have, at times, been far too lenient, this decision seems like a return the insane days of 2008, where every transgression was a metaphorical hanging offence.


or we could say, Hill the one who did not have the necessary balls to drive for Mac, because the lesser team Jordan offerred him more money as a salary, although winning races in the mac, at a 1m per race, would have paid more..

[Big Ben]

or we could say, Hill the one who did not have the necessary balls to drive for Mac, because the lesser team Jordan offerred him more money as a salary, although winning races in the mac, at a 1m per race, would have paid more..

we could. the point being?

[markabilly]

we could. the point being?
that he lacked the courage and back bone to stand up and do the right thing....Frank Williams dumped him, because Frank did not think Damon had the right kind of back bone I forget the exact wrods, but that was pretty clear.

and so gave in to being petty, and unlike far worse and more dangerous stunts that only got reprimands, we have a 20 sec penalty for something caused by the FIA.....(not some mac stick man)

[ShiftingGears]

What a stupid website. Making attacks on Hill's career which have nothing to do with the stewards decision or the interpretation of the rules. How professional.

[markabilly]

Andrew Benson's take on the rule and the ruling:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/05/why_schumacher_broke_the_rules.html
from the article....Hill's comment reveals his pettiness..."But there was a wry smile from Michael."
:rolleyes:
oppps, a little slip up..payback by a man who lacked what it took to do it on track

[ArrowsFA1]

he was wrong :down:
Then so were "all the team managers bar that of Mercedes - I understand that upon seeing Schumacher's move every single one of them got in touch with race director Charlie Whiting to say it was not allowed."

I said earlier that Schumacher shouldn't be penalised for there being an unclear rule, but if the intent and wording says there should be no overtaking then that's pretty clear.

As for this being Damon Hill's idea of a "payback"... :laugh: :laugh:

[markabilly]

Then so were "all the team managers bar that of Mercedes - I understand that upon seeing Schumacher's move every single one of them got in touch with race director Charlie Whiting to say it was not allowed."

I said earlier that Schumacher shouldn't be penalised for there being an unclear rule, but if the intent and wording says there should be no overtaking then that's pretty clear.

As for this being Damon Hill's idea of a "payback"... :laugh: :laugh:
HE "understands" sure :rotflmao:

face it, damon gave himself away... to be expected from someone with his character or lack thereof.... :dozey:

[Roamy]

he was wrong :down:

if hamilton (or jensen) had passed massa, he would be saying the opposite

The law leaves room for argument as this year they have put in the safety car line. This line is back of the start finish line.

So while MS thought they were going to have a all out race through one corner at Monaco was quite stupid of someone with his tenure in the sport.
He was clearly trying to take advantage of a loosely written regulation. Kinda like having "Launch Control" on you car but not using it.

[Ent]

No, because the rule that MSc fell foul of states that, if the SC remains out on final lap, it will pull into pits before the end of the race and the cars will complete the race to finish line WITHOUT OVERTAKING.

That is not what the rules say. They say:


Rule 40.13: If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

The rules allow (a loophole?) for the safety car to be pulled in on the last lap if the track is clear so the race does not finish whilst the safety car is deployed, which would result in green flags being waved and cars being able to race from the first safety car line to the finish line (not covered by Rule 40.13).

If the track remained blocked and a return to green flag racing was not possible, then the race would have to be completed under safety car conditions and the safety car would peel off at the put entrance and the cars would continue single file to the finish line under yellow flag conditions (ie. Rule 40.13).

Clearly, the first case was what happened, not the second.


I've said it before, all the pretty ladies could be waving their undies instead of flags, but it DOES NOT CHANGE THE RULE.

True, pretty ladies waving their undies would not change the rule, but you did by misreading the rule and, as your entire argument is based on an incorrect reading of the rules, it is not a valid argument.

So, we once again come back to the question of whether the race ended whilst the safety car was deployed, and by the evidence, it would appear that the information provided to the drivers was contradictory. Green flags clearly mean that the circuit has returned to full race conditions (and yes, there will be rule somewhere that states that), yet there would be doubt about whether rule 40.13 applies. If the FIA had not intended the race to return to full race conditions, then they should not have waved the green flags. A monumental stuff-up by the FIA. As a result, both Ferrari and Mercedes have valid arguments to make, putting everyone in a difficult position. An own-goal by the FIA, for sure.

[Roamy]

In all fairness to the situation MS should keep his 7th position an all the FIA lawmakers should be required to spend one evening at the "Parlor" with Max.

[Valve Bounce]

In all fairness to the situation MS should keep his 7th position an all the FIA lawmakers should be required to spend one evening at the "Parlor" with Max.

Agreed :up:

[Roamy]

And While I am here RB should be suspended for a few races for tossing the steering wheel onto the track. There is no room for this bullsh!t whiner stuff in a sport where lives are on the line.

[AndyL]

Rule 40.13: If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

The rules allow (a loophole?) for the safety car to be pulled in on the last lap if the track is clear so the race does not finish whilst the safety car is deployed, which would result in green flags being waved and cars being able to race from the first safety car line to the finish line (not covered by Rule 40.13).

If the track remained blocked and a return to green flag racing was not possible, then the race would have to be completed under safety car conditions and the safety car would peel off at the put entrance and the cars would continue single file to the finish line under yellow flag conditions (ie. Rule 40.13).

Clearly, the first case was what happened, not the second.

[...]

So, we once again come back to the question of whether the race ended whilst the safety car was deployed, and by the evidence, it would appear that the information provided to the drivers was contradictory. Green flags clearly mean that the circuit has returned to full race conditions (and yes, there will be rule somewhere that states that), yet there would be doubt about whether rule 40.13 applies. If the FIA had not intended the race to return to full race conditions, then they should not have waved the green flags. A monumental stuff-up by the FIA. As a result, both Ferrari and Mercedes have valid arguments to make, putting everyone in a difficult position. An own-goal by the FIA, for sure.

I think this is an excellent summing-up of the situation and I agree 100% with your interpretation, even if the stewards didn't.

There's nothing in the rules that says a safety car condition can't be called off during the last lap. Whether it is or isn't, the safety car will pull in, so at that point the drivers will have to determine whether or not it's still technically "deployed". It seems to me that if SC boards are still displayed, then it is. If the SC boards have been pulled in then it isn't.

[markabilly]

And While I am here RB should be suspended for a few races for tossing the steering wheel onto the track. There is no room for this bullsh!t whiner stuff in a sport where lives are on the line.
yeah we are popping 20 sec penalties on MS when someone waved the green flag in his face, where the Hamilton-vettel stuff in the pitlane could easily get some people in the pits killed, and it is a reprimand, whereas Rubens does the toss, and I guess does not even get a reprimand........

[markabilly]

all the FIA lawmakers should be required to spend one evening at the "Parlor" with Max.
would not do that to poor damon......no matter how deserving :vader:

[HereIam]

Benson's article explains it perfectly, even the green flags business... the fact that the SC was deployed on the last lap should have made it very clear to everybody... the race is finished and no overtaking...

[Bagwan]

The "wry" shoe thought it was payback , but Damon insists it was not .

[markabilly]

I'm quite amazed at some of the attacks on Hill here, and I'd like to retract my post yesterday when I applauded you guys for not littering the forum with Damon vs Michael conspiracy theories. I jumped the gun there I think. I didn't agree with the penalty on Schumacher because there was a clear error when issuing a green flag, but I'm not going to go all 'fanboy' and start to analyse it by going back to 1994 as an explanation of the decison.. :rolleyes:
.....would not have thought it, until i read the wry smile part :dozey:

yeah, explain hamilton in the pits :dozey:

or rubens and his toss, with nary a word said.....

[AndyL]

Benson's article explains it perfectly, even the green flags business... the fact that the SC was deployed on the last lap should have made it very clear to everybody... the race is finished and no overtaking...

As people have already pointed out, the rule in question is not about whether the safety car is deployed at the start of, or during, the last lap. 40.13 is only about when the race ends with the safety car deployed.

Benson says:

Clearly, the rule is meant to be read as meaning that if the safety car is out during the final lap then, although it will pull into the pits before the end of the lap, the cars will proceed to the finish line without being allowed to overtake.
That doesn't seem clear to me at all. I don't see anything in the rules as they're written that implies this interpretation. Andrew Benson is making an assumption about what was in the mind of the rule drafters when they wrote it. He may be right about what they intended, but the rules can only be interpreted based on what they actually wrote.

[HereIam]

it clearly means that, being the last lap of the race, it's the end of the race...
not Shakespeare, but not open to interpretations, in my opinion... the rest is splitting hairs...

[Daika]

The Case of the Speluncean Explorers and Formula 1 goes hand in hand. Really people are having a field day over what is law and how to interpreted it.

[Mysterious Rock]

Is there any chance we could have a poll on whether people think that the schumacher incident is illegal or not???
It would be good to see in that sense

[SGWilko]

you change your tune as it suits you.

When hamilton did his number after the MAC stickman raised his stick, you had no problem with hamilton nearly running into vettel.

when the FIA waves the green flag, and it was MS passing, you jump up and down and cry FOUL!!!!!

Not sure I see the similarity between the two incidents....

[Retro Formula 1]

Horrid situation.

My first take was that there was nothing whatsoever wrong with the move as Alonso was past the first SC line.

Then we have the 2nd rule relating to a SC on the last lap business which is a little vague. It could mean that if the SC is still justified to be out then then it will peel in and finish under procession but does it still apply if the course is clear and under green flag.

Whatever the case, the other team managers seemed pretty sure that it wasn't allowed and there's only a few non-technical rule changes each year so nobody in the sport has any excuse for not being familiar.

I think he's been a little unlucky but them is the rules and other drivers have been a lot more unlucky with the FIA's interpretation. A bit ironic if it isn't reversed that Brawn and Schumacher who are the masters of interpreting rules should fall foul on this one.

BTW, are you allowed to appeal a decision like this?

As for the criticism or Hill, I think some people are a little annoyed and hopefully looking for a fall guy but try and keep some perspective for a great ambassador of the sport.

[SGWilko]

Benson's article explains it perfectly, even the green flags business... the fact that the SC was deployed on the last lap should have made it very clear to everybody... the race is finished and no overtaking...

Indeed, however quite a lot of folk are struggling with the simple facts. Now it's all Hill's fault because he drove for Jordan, or because he didn't drive for McLaren.

Fact is, the safety car was deployed on the final lap, and it came in as dictated by the rule.

Maybe they will start blaming Norma Jean next?

[SGWilko]

The "wry" shoe thought it was payback , but Damon insists it was not .

Perhaps Hill was just doing his job? Decision is not his alone.

[SGWilko]

yeah, explain hamilton in the pits :dozey:


Hes been explained to the nth degree....

[ioan]

you change your tune as it suits you.

When hamilton did his number after the MAC stickman raised his stick, you had no problem with hamilton nearly running into vettel.

when the FIA waves the green flag, and it was MS passing, you jump up and down and cry FOUL!!!!!

Right on it!

[SGWilko]

Right on it!

ioan, the irony of your posts of late do not do the phrase 'pot calling the kettle black' justice.

People on here have short memories, you clearlyforget how I posted that the Vettel/Hamilton pit incident was 'six of one, half a dozen of the other' and this is why I agreed with the no penalty only a reprimand for each driver.

How can very few understand that, if the SC is deployed, or out, or in use, or being followed on the FINAL LAP, then, rule 40.13 tells us that, it will come in at the end of the lap, the cars will complete the lap without overtaking.

The safety car was gonna come in, because rule 40.13 applies. The SC was deployed on the final lap, because it was still out on track.

So, now you see how the 'if the SC is deployed on the final lap' bit of the rule is interpreted.

I've said before, I'd much rather the shoe get the place and the points over Onslo, but rules is rules.

[ioan]

Andrew Benson's take on the rule and the ruling:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/05/why_schumacher_broke_the_rules.html

What a pile of whatever stinky.



Previously, when a race was restarted after a safety car period, the cars were not allowed to overtake until they had crossed the finish line at the start of the next lap.

From this year, though, they can now start to race once they pass this line, which at Monaco was on the exit of the Rascasse hairpin as the cars begin the climb up to the final corner, Anthony Noghes.

Those who wrote the rules would argue that the reason Brawn's interpretation is wrong is that the only time article 40.13 can possibly apply is if the safety car is out at the beginning of the last lap.

In that event, the safety car will pull in to the pit lane, for aforementioned aesthetic reasons, at the end of the lap. But the fact that it is in the pit lane is irrelevant - it is still effectively controlling the cars because article 40.13 says they cannot overtake.

Brawn and Schumacher argued that at this point green flags were displayed, meaning they were able to race.

But the rule-makers would say that is the case every time the safety car pulls in. The reason for it is to let all the drivers know, wherever they are on the track, that the safety car has pulled in.

This is all contradictory.

Because the drivers know that the SC comes in when the SC light in their cockpit is turned off and the yellow flags and SC panels are removed and the green flags mean you can race after the SC line, which isn't the S/F line anymore.

And this is the gem from Benson's lack of logic:



But they are still not allowed to overtake until the specified point - which on the last lap means not at all.

The specific point is the SC line and not the S/F line this season, or isn't that what mr Benson was stressing a couple of paragraphs earlier?

His is a crappy article crappily substantiated with made up apologies to the FIA.

And here is how a race ending under SC looks even if the SC did return to the pits before the end of the lap:

http://motorsport.com/photos/f1/2009/aus/f1-2009-aus-xp-1651.jpg

Notice the SC sign and the yellow flags, not green ones.

[AndyL]

So, now you see how the 'if the SC is deployed on the final lap' bit of the rule is interpreted.

SGWilko - your argument seems to be based on a misreading of the rule. There is no "if the SC is deployed on the final lap" bit of rule 40.13. The exact words are "If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed...".

The race ends at the end of the final lap - not at the start of it or part way round. The only important point is whether the safety car was still deployed at the end of the race. Whether it was deployed at any other point during the last lap isn't relevant. At the end of the race, the yellow flags had been taken in and no SC boards were being displayed, indicating that the safety car was no longer deployed.

[Bobby_Hamlin]

And this is the gem from Benson's lack of logic:

The specific point is the SC line and not the S/F line this season, or isn't that what mr Benson was stressing a couple of paragraphs earlier?


To me the logic is clear - he means that the 'last lap' part of the rule states the safety car pulls in and the cars should cross the finish line without overtaking, thereby rendering the SC line void.

The question that is being raised by Mercedes, quite rightly, is the green flags and 'track clear' message which would appear, as you say, to be ambiguous and at odds with normal procedure.

You don't need to resort to (failed) attempts at over-analyzing and picking apart some guy's perfectly reasonable article because it doesn't tally with your view however.

[ioan]

To me the logic is clear - he means that the 'last lap' part of the rule states the safety car pulls in and the cars should cross the finish line without overtaking, thereby rendering the SC line void.

And where exactly is this explicitly written in the rules?!
Everyone dreams up whatever suits their bias, but none can show any proof for it.
As long as it is not explicit in the rules it doesn't exist.

[Robinho]

i'm still confused - the rule states that if the race is to finish under safety car conditions then the safety car will pull off and they will drive across the line.

i'd assume that in this case the yellow flags and safety car boards should still be shown, as Aus '09.

if the track is cleared, then the safety car can be pulled and racing continues after the last SC line. Green flags are shown.

if the intention was to finish under the safety car then they should have left the flags as they were, the green flags were contradictory to the intentions of race control and therefore any penalties handed out under that rule should be void. i could excuse the FIA switching the places back if they admitted they made a mistake and they shouldn't have thrown greens.

its not like the cars were all cruising to the finish, they all gunned it, the only reason Schumi got anywhere near Alonso is because he got it sideways whilst racing out of the hairpin. it seems by their actions that all the drivers considered the track live, even if the teams were sure that the rule stated the race was finished.

[Retro Formula 1]

I share your frustration ioan as the rules seem to be bendable to different circumstances / drivers.

Lets take the appeal against the decision by Mercedes.

This sanction falls within the scope of Article 152, paragraph 5, of the International Sporting Code. According to these provisions, “penalties of driving through or stopping in pit lanes together with certain penalties specified in FIA Championship regulations where this is expressly stated, are not susceptible to appeal”. I believe this decision falls within that regulation and therefore it will be inadmissible to appeal against the contested decision.

We shall see.

There is also the question of the penalty itself. Why was it not 25 seconds which I think is the quoted penalty if a penalty is accrued during the last 5 laps of the race.

We might both agree that Schumacher received a penalty to what seemed a perfectly Ok move by an out of shape Alonso on a Green flagged, non SC track. The problem is that if the FIA enforces it's rules, you cannot appeal this decision and the penalty should be 25 seconds unless the rules have changed since Spa in 2008 when a similarly, if not worse, injustice occurred.

The FIA looks all at sea once more trying to justify stupid rules. What on earth was wrong with no overtaking until the S/F line? Then we would have had a fair result.

[Tazio]

.


its not like the cars were all cruising to the finish, they all gunned it, the only reason Schumi got anywhere near
Alonso is because he got it sideways whilst racing out of the hairpin. .Alonso maintains he was told by the team there would be no overtaking once the final safety car returned to the pits
he had considered a move on Lewis Hamilton, who was fifth in his McLaren

:p Fred ??

http://www.sportinglife.com/others/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=others/10/05/17/AUTO_Monaco_Alonso.html

[SGWilko]

Alonso maintains he was told by the team there would be no overtaking once the final safety car returned to the pits
he had considered a move on Lewis Hamilton, who was fifth in his McLaren

:p Fred ??

http://www.sportinglife.com/others/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=others/10/05/17/AUTO_Monaco_Alonso.html

You coud argue this is why Onslo took a wide line as he was not racing, or perhaps he felt a change is as good as a rest in terms of scenery.

[Tazio]

You coud argue this is why Onslo took a wide line as he was not racing, or perhaps he felt a change is as good as a rest in terms of scenery.Or perhaps he was worried Mike would pull a Lewis on Kimi at Canada routine! (anti-clockwise) :)
The bloody lights can be confusing :p

[ioan]

...i could excuse the FIA switching the places back if they admitted they made a mistake...

I can't remember that ever happening before.

[ioan]

Alonso maintains he was told by the team there would be no overtaking once the final safety car returned to the pits
he had considered a move on Lewis Hamilton, who was fifth in his McLaren



I never believed a word from this guy.

So he was roasting his tires in order to warm them up to overtake Hamilton?! :\

[AndyL]

You coud argue this is why Onslo took a wide line as he was not racing, or perhaps he felt a change is as good as a rest in terms of scenery.

:D No doubt, I know I'd be bored if I'd driven the same piece of road 78 times in one day!

[ioan]

There is also the question of the penalty itself. Why was it not 25 seconds which I think is the quoted penalty if a penalty is accrued during the last 5 laps of the race.

I believe that this is another rule change for this season.

[Retro Formula 1]

I believe that this is another rule change for this season.

Wasn't aware of that. Thanks.

Why do they keep changing the rules if not to court controversy?

[markabilly]

For the SC to not be deployed on the final lap it would have to come in on the penultimate lap.



once again read the rule

'if the race ends while the SC is deployed', but they said sc in ---not deployed---turned off the sc indicator shown to pits and drivers, pulled the sc signs, turned off the safety car lights, waved the green flags and flashed the green lights.

when the cars cross the start finish line, the race ends, and the safety car is not deployed.

now if the signs remain out for the sc, the lights are not flashing green, but are yellow, the signal to pits and everyone is SC deployed, and SC pulls in...then all is kaput for da schuie

indeed if just one of those things were still clearly showing, then i conceed some basis for a penalty and MS was in the wrong....but not one of those things remained showing

simples for anyone to see...


and I am still waiting for the explanation for which there is only one:


yeah we are popping 20 sec penalties on MS when someone waved the green flag in his face, where the Hamilton-vettel stuff in the pitlane could easily get some people in the pits killed, and it is a reprimand, whereas Rubens does the toss, and I guess does not even get a reprimand........


the answer and responsibility belongs to.....




Originally Posted by http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=0#post0)
Hill, the man who ended his career by pathetically retiring his fully functioning car because he was “so far down the field, there was little point in me carrying on” in his farewell race. Hill, the man who was denied his first world championship by the win-at-all-costs ruthlessness of Schumacher. Hill, the steward?

To be fair, Hill was only a quarter of the panel that decided if a breach had occurred and the penalty to be applied, but we have seen that the former drivers have added a moderating influence to the normally draconian stewards panel.

Reprimands have been the penalty of choice so far this year, and while it can be argued that these penalties have, at times, been far too lenient, this decision seems like a return the insane days of 2008, where every transgression was a metaphorical hanging offence.

[Saint Devote]

"... learnt that Niki Lauda is the bravest man I have ever met, just because a driver crosses the finish line first does not mean he has won the race. The authorities in charge of F1 racing are not really capable of running today's motor racing at the top level and, Mclaren are the best team in motor racing".

And this was said by: the late James Hunt in 1976 after he clinched his world title.

Quite clearly, NOTHING has changed!

[Tazio]

Hail Caesar Teodosio II



http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20061029elpepudep_3/XLCO/Ies/Fernando_Alonso_recibe_calor_Oviedo.jpg

[Saint Devote]

Hail Caesar Teodosio II



http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20061029elpepudep_3/XLCO/Ies/Fernando_Alonso_recibe_calor_Oviedo.jpg

I like Alonso and he was a joy to watch during the grand prix. But he did lose the plot considering he was one of the quickest in practice.

Whacking the wall was extremely disappointing for me and, then being caught napping by Schumacher are things that El Nano is going to have to reflect upon between now and Turkey.

He might have finished on the podium or even won yesterday if not for that wall liason.

Those who underrate this magnificent driver do so at their peril!

[gloomyDAY]

The incident with the manhole cover was odd. Kind of reminded me of NASCAR style yellow flags. Also, there were a lot less people in the grandstands. Some of the spots were completely empty.

[markabilly]

The incident with the manhole cover was odd. Kind of reminded me of NASCAR style yellow flags. Also, there were a lot less people in the grandstands. Some of the spots were completely empty.


what??

the china-turk virus has spread :eek:

probably at home, watching the commercials on Speed channel

[markabilly]

Hail Caesar Teodosio II



http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20061029elpepudep_3/XLCO/Ies/Fernando_Alonso_recibe_calor_Oviedo.jpg

vir triumphalis!!!! dux bellorum



"Sancte Pater, sic transit gloria mundi, respica te, hominem te memento"


da

finis


or should I mention the last practice @ monaco

[Tazio]

or should I mention the last practice @ monaco

I believe it would be appropriate.
After all it's
History :)

[Big Ben]

simples for anyone to see...


and I am still waiting for the explanation for which there is only one:


the answer and responsibility belongs to.....




bla bla bla. Read the whole sentence and you'll get it. Everybody did except Schumi and his fanboys who instead of looking at the whole picture try do justify something by hanging to a word. How about punctuation? Isn't there a comma that would allow him pass?

[Big Ben]

Wasn't aware of that. Thanks.

Why do they keep changing the rules if not to court controversy?

If they would have kept it the way it was, now you would be moaning that 25 seconds is just too much. I think this is like the most controversial change of the century :rolleyes:

[SGWilko]

Hail Caesar Teodosio II



http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20061029elpepudep_3/XLCO/Ies/Fernando_Alonso_recibe_calor_Oviedo.jpg

'alright, I am the Messiah, now **** off'! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

'alright, I am the Messiah, now **** off'! :D
'E's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy!! :p

[Saint Devote]

The incident with the manhole cover was odd. Kind of reminded me of NASCAR style yellow flags. Also, there were a lot less people in the grandstands. Some of the spots were completely empty.

I have never seen the ENTIRE grandstand at Nouvelle empty before on grand prix day. Perhaps it was the Alonso fan club boycotting over the stupid no spare car rule :vader:

[Saint Devote]

I never believed a word from this guy.

So he was roasting his tires in order to warm them up to overtake Hamilton?! :\

I'd say that Alonso is another "ace driver" just really upset over being beaten by 41 year old Schumi!

Alonso has forgotten that one has to get up really early in the morning to take on the man from Kerpen :eek:

[markabilly]

I believe it would be appropriate.
After all it's
History :)
Yes and so i see little point in an appeal, as it means nothing given the currrent rules on how marshals can change the results, or how auntie damon, changed the results...and no appeal as to the penalty is permitted.....can't blame Fred for anything except being a sleep or over roasting his tires....he did not get to make a ruling while sitting on the panel, unlike the ole hypocrite Hill

Still waint on you brits to answer the question as to why other whose sins were far worse were either ignored or eceived a reprimand...

and as to the rules, the answer is simple:



40.4 When the order is given to deploy the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED" will be displayed on the timing monitors and all marshal's posts will display waved yellow flags and "SC" boards for the duration of the intervention.



the duration of the intervention ended when the SC pulled into pitlane, and all those signs, lights and indicators were off.

[Daika]

Barrichello is of the hook? I found his actions more of a topic point than Schumacher.

[Retro Formula 1]

Barrichello is of the hook? I found his actions more of a topic point than Schumacher.

I don't know if he is off the hook as far as the FIA is concerned.

It may not get many lines on the forum but Rubins was a bit silly and I am expecting the FIA to take action.

Not only did he not replace the steering wheel but he lobbed it away in a fit of pique where it hit another competitors car.

How much does a steering wheel weigh? About the same as the last thing that left his car?

[markabilly]

I don't know if he is off the hook as far as the FIA is concerned.

It may not get many lines on the forum but Rubins was a bit silly and I am expecting the FIA to take action.

Not only did he not replace the steering wheel but he lobbed it away in a fit of pique where it hit another competitors car.

How much does a steering wheel weigh? About the same as the last thing that left his car?


Barrichello is of the hook? I found his actions more of a topic point than Schumacher.
never on the hook appearantly

sorry, hill and company are too busy whacking on Schuie and figuring out the rules to be noticing anything as minor as merely tossing a steering wheel out where if a car were to hit is just right, it might go flying off into somebody's head,
:rolleyes:
Beside Rubens never beat out Hill for a couple of WDCs

[Daika]

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=48468

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83721

Mercedes won't appeal

[gloomyDAY]

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=48468

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83721

Mercedes won't appealBoo! :mad:

[Robinho]

no appeal, (they couldn't really anyway), but an agreement from the FIA to review and clarify the rule and the post race penalties, which is as much as Merc could have hoped for, a chink of common sense?

[markabilly]

no appeal, (they couldn't really anyway), but an agreement from the FIA to review and clarify the rule and the post race penalties, which is as much as Merc could have hoped for, a chink of common sense?
no surprize, just face for saving for the view of the public..... :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

as I said elsewhere, all they needed to go was give a .8sec penalty, and that would be just as unappealable as 20 seconds....

what they need to do is change the rules on these after the race stweawrt decisions....this is the real joke

[ArrowsFA1]

...an agreement from the FIA to review and clarify the rule and the post race penalties, which is as much as Merc could have hoped for, a chink of common sense?
:up:

As Mercedes say:
"It was clear from our discussions with the stewards after the race that they understood the reasons for our interpretation and acknowledged that this was a new and previously untested situation but ultimately disagreed with our interpretation."

[HereIam]

rules are rules... there is no excuse for not knowing them, despite what's happening on the track... if in doubt, don't risk it... according to the BBC post-race interviews, Domenicali knew them... Brawn didn't... as simple as that.

[SGWilko]

an agreement from the FIA to review and clarify the rule and the post race penalties,

Christ on a bike - the FIA being pro-active? That's unheard of!

[SGWilko]

Hail Caesar Teodosio II



http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20061029elpepudep_3/XLCO/Ies/Fernando_Alonso_recibe_calor_Oviedo.jpg

Look very closely, you can just make out the PFJ in the crowd....

[christophulus]

Very dignified response from Mercedes, and hopefully it'll be clarified soon. The whole rule book needs an overhaul really :up:

[Tazio]

Look very closely, you can just make out the PFJ in the crowd.... I see them!
In the hospitality suite with Speed Racer, and Chin Chin!
Those Spaniards really know how to "toss a bomb" :beer:

BTW CC is not Blacked up :p

[SGWilko]

I see them!

Thats the Judean Peoples Front. Splitter! ;)

[SGWilko]

The whole rule book needs an overhaul really :up:

Has done for years.....

[Tazio]

Thats the Judean Peoples Front. Splitter! ;) My bad I thought you were referring to
"PJF media recruitment company"

[gloomyDAY]

Alonso's take on the weekend.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83728

[Tazio]

Alonso's take on the weekend.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83728
Save it GD.
They don't want the truth!
They can't handle the truth ;)

[Barreis]

It's bad for M.Schumacher..

[Mia 01]

MS is out, that´s it!!

Mark rules!!