"King" George speaks

[garyshell]

http://motorsports.fanhouse.com/2010/05/04/exclusive-tony-george-unplugged-former-indycar-ceo-speaks-o/

I'll wait until part two, tomorrow, before I comment.

Gary

[e2mtt]

Now there's a guy I don't miss hearing from... or about.

[call_me_andrew]

Flying commercial. How the mighty have fallen.

[dataman1]

http://motorsports.fanhouse.com/2010/05/04/exclusive-tony-george-unplugged-former-indycar-ceo-speaks-o/

I'll wait until part two, tomorrow, before I comment.

Gary

Good idea Gary. I await the answer to "Was it all worth it?"

[UltimateDanGTR]

'King'? oh please, I think herrod is more accurate.

[garyshell]

'King'? oh please, I think herrod is more accurate.


Think "king" Hiro and the derivation of the "king" moniker when you read that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiro_Matsu****a
Because of politically correctness and one offended poster who moaned to the moderators, I was admonished and forced to drop the ellipsis that I used to place in front of "king".

Gary

P.S. Even more PC BS... the nanny filter screwed up the link bescause of the letters S*H*I*T in the name. Ridiculous. Here is another link: http://tinyurl.com/kinghiro .

[Lousada]

I'm surprised none of the usual suspects jumped on this:

So far this year, the best thing that has happened to Danica has been she picked up the best motor coach driver in the business, who became available after being let go by IMS at the end of the 2009 season.
:p

[Lousada]

I just saw that part 2 is posted:
http://motorsports.fanhouse.com/2010/05/05/tony-george-answers-was-it-all-worth-it/

My opinion of this interview: He remains incredibly vague when asked about the past. He also does not appear to have much self-reflection. All the good things the last 12 months happened because of him and actual mistakes he cannot name. Very easy to say you would restructure when you clearly didn't and were in fact part of the problem.

[garyshell]

I'm surprised none of the usual suspects jumped on this:

:p


I saw it, but it was just too easy... ;)

Gary

[garyshell]

Just read part two and this stands out from both parts:


HC: Reflecting back in general, are there any misconceptions you'd like to set straight?

TG: Misconceptions are only a concern to those that hold them.

HC: Given all that you know now -- all that you have been through -- was it all worth it to form the Indy Racing League? And why?

TG: That is a very broad, open question and the only thing I can do is reiterate what I said earlier, but perhaps say it another way.

There is great value in the Indy Racing League; it exists to support the institutions of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the Indianapolis 500 Mile race; and I am proud of its contributions to the sport

All I can say is: and "de nile" is not just a river in Egypt.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Just read part two and this stands out from both parts:



All I can say is: and "de nile" is not just a river in Egypt.

Gary

Yes, he is a little defensive isn't he?

The elephant in the room throughout that whole piece was what was asked at the end, in that "was the formation of the IRL worth it?"....

He never really answered that.

I also found it interesting that he is very positive on the direction of the league, and Bernard's hiring...but I really started to have my BS button pressed when he claimed what it cost him to start and own the IRL was cheaper than buying a franchise in other major sports. Gee Tony...when you drag the sport down into the sewer, and spend a lot of money on it, that is the BEST justification you have?

Naive..the man is naive. A very NICE man..but completely in denial and clueless...

Part of me couldn't hate Tony....but I really hate what he did...

[the bro]

But hey at least I learned a new word: bifurcate. Which apparently means: split or divide into two. I guess he would know a thing or two about that.

[Mark in Oshawa]

But hey at least I learned a new word: bifurcate. Which apparently means: split or divide into two. I guess he would know a thing or two about that.

He does...He took one whole, made two halves..shrunk em with some help from idiots like Andrew Craig and Kevin Kalkoven...and then put them together and we have about one eighth....not sure if there is a word for THAT.

[markabilly]

He does...He took one whole, made two halves..shrunk em with some help from idiots like Andrew Craig and Kevin Kalkoven...and then put them together and we have about one eighth....not sure if there is a word for THAT.
two words ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrunken_head

[Blancvino]

He does...He took one whole, made two halves..shrunk em with some help from idiots like Andrew Craig and Kevin Kalkoven...and then put them together and we have about one eighth....not sure if there is a word for THAT.

Well, it's actually two - Ill advised

[dataman1]

Good idea Gary. I await the answer to "Was it all worth it?"

I waited and was not impressed. What a waste of news print and my time. His ego is soo... large he can't see or admit to his own mistakes.

[SarahFan]

I think the whole experiment made him stooooopidererer

[Andy Traxel]

Doesn't the last reply say it all?

"There is great value in the Indy Racing League; it exists to support the institutions of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the Indianapolis 500 Mile race..."

Indy and the 500 do have a long and great tradition. But most of it is about men who were too nouveau riche or ethnic to be invited to Augusta in April. So they went to Indy in May. Indy was a hobby for them, not a business. That changed after WWII. But the Speedway and its various proxies (AAA, USAC) never adjusted. It was the Indy 500 and everything else fended for itself.

I cite the failure to hang on to Marlboro/Philip Morris as the series sponsor as one glaring example of the Speedway's failing.

The Sprint Cup, or all of NASCAR, doesn't exist to support the Daytona Speedway or the Daytona 500. The Frances understood that for racing teams to be successful as businesses, they needed a series of races and a season, not just 4 weeks in May.

The original CART owners wanted to race open wheel cars with sponsor's money. They put a series together that attracted sponsors and TV networks. When Tony thought that this threatened the preeminence and power of the Speedway, he fought back. And pulled the whole house down around him.

Andy

[spiritone]

Interesting interview(not) all the things that bothered us champ car fans about this man are laid out for all to see. He is the same vague, evasive, and bumbling person that irl's thought was saving racing in north america. It's taken a long time for some to realize that this was all about ego and very little about making racing better. I'm sure that tony with all his money and ego thought that he could squash champ car a lot quicker than it took.

There is no joy in saying i told you so. He decimated my favorite sport and the prospect of it coming back are looking pretty bleak. The only hope is that a new car and new engines will come soon enough to start over.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Doesn't the last reply say it all?

"There is great value in the Indy Racing League; it exists to support the institutions of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the Indianapolis 500 Mile race..."

Indy and the 500 do have a long and great tradition. But most of it is about men who were too nouveau riche or ethnic to be invited to Augusta in April. So they went to Indy in May. Indy was a hobby for them, not a business. That changed after WWII. But the Speedway and its various proxies (AAA, USAC) never adjusted. It was the Indy 500 and everything else fended for itself.

Augusta wasn't much of anything to any noveau rich until after the war. The rich didn't make Indy, it was guys like the Granatelli's coming from Chicago with their junk specials, and the various USAC dirt track drivers who sacrificed everything to make the trek. Indy really is a tradition that started with dirt under the nails grit as much as the stock car guys did. The rich did come in, and for the most part funded things, but the heart and soul of what made this race a big deal was the dream and living it...


I cite the failure to hang on to Marlboro/Philip Morris as the series sponsor as one glaring example of the Speedway's failing. I think they would have lost it anyhow. Losing PPG and FEDEX however are inexcusable but that was CART in the aftermath of the split...


The Sprint Cup, or all of NASCAR, doesn't exist to support the Daytona Speedway or the Daytona 500. The Frances understood that for racing teams to be successful as businesses, they needed a series of races and a season, not just 4 weeks in May.
The Frances made sure they had their fingers in half the tracks. If they hadn't, maybe they wouldn't have been so egalitarian....


The original CART owners wanted to race open wheel cars with sponsor's money. They put a series together that attracted sponsors and TV networks. When Tony thought that this threatened the preeminence and power of the Speedway, he fought back. And pulled the whole house down around him.

Andy

You have this last post right, and all and all an excellent post. Post more often....

[Wilf]

Doesn't the last reply say it all?

When Tony thought that this threatened the preeminence and power of the Speedway, he fought back. And pulled the whole house down around him.


The whole house except . . . The Indianapolis 500; it continues while others have found the dust bin.

[garyshell]

The whole house except . . . The Indianapolis 500; it continues while others have found the dust bin.


For now. I think it's clear to all at 16th and Georgetown that the 500 doesn't exist without the IRL. The economics of it as a standalone event just don't add up for the teams. Even the sisters know that or they would have shut down the IRL completely.

Gary

[SarahFan]

For now. I think it's clear to all at 16th and Georgetown that the 500 doesn't exist without the IRL. The economics of it as a standalone event just don't add up for the teams. Even the sisters know that or they would have shut down the IRL completely.

Gary

what?

the 500 did just fine pre-irl.....

you could shut down the IRL today..... and 33 would start on the last of may...this year and next and next

[garyshell]

what?

the 500 did just fine pre-irl.....

you could shut down the IRL today..... and 33 would start on the last of may...this year and next and next


Sure it did, when there were other races to run the rest of the year. There is no way you'd get 33 teams to run if there was only one race. Where would you find the teams? And where would the teams find the personnel? Do you think all those folks would not be working for other forms of racing and just sitting around the house? Same with the drivers. There is too much fixed expense that is typically amortized over several races that would now have to figure into a single race budget.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Sure it did, when there were other races to run the rest of the year. There is no way you'd get 33 teams to run if there was only one race. Where would you find the teams? And where would the teams find the personnel? Do you think all those folks would not be working for other forms of racing and just sitting around the house? Same with the drivers. There is too much fixed expense that is typically amortized over several races that would now have to figure into a single race budget.

Gary


thats a bunch of hooey

[garyshell]

Ken,

Do you think Penske, Andretti, Chipster, Sarah, or any other owner are going to retain the personnel if the series were to fold? How is this economically viable? If they don't retain them, what percentage would be available for employment for only one month? They'd all have other jobs, some in racing some not. I can't see them going in and saying "Boss, I know I've been here less than a year, but can I please have three weeks off in May?"

Is Sarah or any of the rest of the owners going to continue to pay rent on a garage for a whole year?

Are all the drivers going to sit around waiting for a once a year ride?

I just don't see how this works.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Ken,

Do you think Penske, Andretti, Chipster, Sarah, or any other owner are going to retain the personnel if the series were to fold? How is this economically viable? If they don't retain them, what percentage would be available for employment for only one month? They'd all have other jobs, some in racing some not. I can't see them going in and saying "Boss, I know I've been here less than a year, but can I please have three weeks off in May?"

Is Sarah or any of the rest of the owners going to continue to pay rent on a garage for a whole year?

Are all the drivers going to sit around waiting for a once a year ride?

I just don't see how this works.

Gary

its the indyF'en500 gary....

there are a 100's of different racing series with teams and drivers.....

set a basic set of rules and 33 racers will figure out a way to be on the grid


why you make things so complicated astounds me

[Easy Drifter]

There has always been a series of some sort. AAA, USAC, CART. For a long time the cars that ran on the dirt tracks were the same ones as used at Indy.
Indy always did play by a slightly different rule book to whatever series be it any of the above but the cars ran elsewhere.
It was just that TG decided to make the Indy rules apply to a series instead of just tweaking a series rules for Indy.

[garyshell]

its the indyF'en500 gary....

there are a 100's of different racing series with teams and drivers.....

set a basic set of rules and 33 racers will figure out a way to be on the grid


why you make things so complicated astounds me

Where are these teams NOW? Why aren't they scrambling to be in the IndyF'en500 NOW? What is so magical about not having the series that would make them want to suddenly show up? There is no 28/5 rule anymore to dissuade them from showing up right now. Obviously they don't want to or can't afford to for a one off race. I don't see how the economics of this could possibly work if there were only one race.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Where are these teams NOW? Why aren't they scrambling to be in the IndyF'en500 NOW? What is so magical about not having the series that would make them want to suddenly show up? There is no 28/5 rule anymore to dissuade them from showing up right now. Obviously they don't want to or can't afford to for a one off race. I don't see how the economics of this could possibly work if there were only one race.

Gary


of coarse you dont

[garyshell]

I see, so you have no idea where these teams are now or why they don't show up now as a one off team either.

Thanks for clarifying that.

The days of a standalone Indy 500 are long gone. I loved the era when that might have been viable as much as the next guy. Living as close to Indy as I do, it's reach was felt here with a handfull of Mom and Pop operations making the vigil each year to enter. But sadly that is history.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

why you make things so complicated astounds me

Yeah, just fold it into NASCAR and be done with it.

[dataman1]

In the days when we saw one-off Indy entries there were multiple chassis and engine configurations. You won't see a one-off team from another series enter the 500 without a link to an existing IRL team because only one chassis and one engine can be competitive. An ALMS, NASCAR, USAC or whatever league team does not have the chassis, engine lease, parts, data or experience for a one-off entry. IMO we can all thank TG for this mess even if he can't see it himself.

[Wilf]

IMO we can all thank TG for this mess even if he can't see it himself.

It's pretty amazing that a guy who got just "stooooopidererer" was capable of doing all that and that all those wise men let him do it.

[Wilf]

In the days when we saw one-off Indy entries there were multiple chassis and engine configurations. You won't see a one-off team from another series enter the 500 without a link to an existing IRL team because only one chassis and one engine can be competitive.

Isn't this being addressed by the Iconic Committee; possible multiple engines and chassis? Don't get me wrong, I don't think they can get it done for 2012. They will probably only get multiple engines for then and hopefully the choice of chassis in another year.

[SarahFan]

I see, so you have no idea where these teams are now or why they don't show up now as a one off team either.

Thanks for clarifying that.

The days of a standalone Indy 500 are long gone. I loved the era when that might have been viable as much as the next guy. Living as close to Indy as I do, it's reach was felt here with a handfull of Mom and Pop operations making the vigil each year to enter. But sadly that is history.

Gary

do i really need to repeat myself...

there are 1000's of teams competing across the country that if the 500 was a stand alone event that are capapble of running a one off...

look no further than indy lights, formula BMW, star mazda, ALMS, grand am... not to mention the 100's of regional champions in the sprints etc...

come on Gary... your smarter than you post....the reason they dont is becuase they dont have the resources to even make the field vs the regulars....

[Scotty G.]

For now. I think it's clear to all at 16th and Georgetown that the 500 doesn't exist without the IRL.


You have it backwards, Gar.

The IRL could fold up tomorrow, and you'd still get the same number of entries at Indy.

Because most of these teams and the few sponsors that are still left in the sport are here for only ONE reason. The Indy 500. Take it away, and watch how quickly these teams fold up.


The 500 was here LONG before the formula car road racers formed CART and will be here LONG after they are gone.

[Scotty G.]

do i really need to repeat myself...

there are 1000's of teams competing across the country that if the 500 was a stand alone event that are capapble of running a one off...

look no further than indy lights, formula BMW, star mazda, ALMS, grand am... not to mention the 100's of regional champions in the sprints etc...

come on Gary... your smarter than you post....the reason they dont is becuase they dont have the resources to even make the field vs the regulars....


Exactly Sarah Fan.

Guys like Gary were the same ones saying the Indy 500 would fold up from disinterest when the "big boy" cars and stars decided to run at Michigan instead of Indy in 1996.

Teams and drivers showed up. Indy was still Indy. There are plenty of teams and drivers still interested in Indy and the Indy 500. Get the costs and rules back where they should be, and some of them would come back. Keep it like the country club it is now, and expect to see the same 7 or 8 teams providing most of the cars every year.

And Michigan was a laughable debacle, filled with a lot of hot air and crashed up cars coming to the green.

[garyshell]

Exactly Sarah Fan.

Guys like Gary were the same ones saying the Indy 500 would fold up from disinterest when the "big boy" cars and stars decided to run at Michigan instead of Indy in 1996.

Teams and drivers showed up. Indy was still Indy. There are plenty of teams and drivers still interested in Indy and the Indy 500. Get the costs and rules back where they should be, and some of them would come back. Keep it like the country club it is now, and expect to see the same 7 or 8 teams providing most of the cars every year.

Scotty once again I must admonish you to stop putting words in my mouth. And tell you to put up or shut up. Where are these magic set of rules and cost containment measures you blow hot air about but never produce?

And as for this nonsense that 1000's of teams are just waiting in the wings, you and Ken are dellusional. You'd be damn lucky to find a dozen, tops. If they are so scared of the current teams what happens if they hear that maybe the Chipster or the General decides he can afford to do a one off? Will they still be too afraid to come out?

You guys are both living in the past in a fantasy world of what the Indy 500 used to be.

Gary

[the bro]

Maybe if you open it up to Formula Ford 1600's you can run it as a stand alone event. There should be lots of those around.

[SarahFan]

Look no further than the 1996 I500

[SarahFan]

You are kidding of course. The IRL goes and so does Lights, BMW and Mazda. There is zero purpose in the US for these series to exist other than to 1) (supposedly) train drivers to move up to the big time. and 2) provide an undercard for the IRL races and others.



No..... Not kidding at all

[Scotty G.]

1. Next year you'll have a hand full of teams that had cars and engines in their garage gathering dust all year. The crews will be one off volunteers, unless that team isn't racing some where else those (qualifying and race) weekends.

2. How about Honda? Do you think they'll stick around and provide engines?

3. To think that the 500 could stand by itself, with no other place for these cars to run is foolish.



1. No you wouldn't. Penske would still show up. Ganassi would still show up. Panther would still show up. Andretti would still show up. Foyt? Do you have to even ask? Its the Indy 500. Without that race, these folks are nobody's in the racing world. Its the lure of that race, that helped form most Indy Car teams.

And back "in the good ole' days" that some remember so fondly of 1995, Indy was made up of plenty of "one off" teams. Hemelgarn. Menard. Pagan. Sinden. Beck. Teams that basically only raced one Indy Car race a year. The front row back in 1995 was made up of all "one off" entries (2 Menard and Goodyear in a 2nd Tasman car).

Get the prices to play back to reasonable, sain levels (especially considering the lack of interest and ROI for the race now) and many teams would either be back or be formed again. PDM would be back. Sam Schmidt would run Indy Cars. Hemelgarn would be back. Greg Beck would be back. Gary Peterson would run Indy Cars. Jaques Lazier would likely form his own team.

We saw many new team owners get involved in the late 90's and early 2000's. Hardly any are still around, for various reasons. Most of which revolve around the foolishly high amount of $$$ that Honda/Dallara gouge teams with today and the lack of ROI for any new sponsors/teams wanting to get involved. It just makes very little sense, for anyone new to break into the Indy Car country club now. Who are the new teams that have formed in the past few years? Sarah Fisher (so she could still have a car to drive). Alex Tagliani (ditto). Anybody else? Nope.

2. Who cares if they do? Those spec crate engines they have been providing, can just as easily be created by any number of engine builders out there. Let em' go. They have helped ruin the sport in many ways. Put it back into the builders' hands (like the IRL originally wanted) and make it affordable again.

3. Which is more foolish? Thinking the Indy Car series and their 16 races can stand on its own, without the Indy 500; or thinking the Indy 500 can stand on its own without the other 16 Indy Car races?

Which one gets the crowds? Which ones gets the limited ROI left in AOW for sponsors? Which one is what ABC/ESPN is still interested in? Which one still draws 20% to 30% more car combos for its event every year? Which one has been around for close to 100 years?

The Indy 500 stood on its own for many years during the CART era. It was NEVER a CART race. It was the race that gave CART relevence. Take that race away and how long did CART/Champ Car last? How relevent was that house of cards without Indy to keep them propped up?

Do they need each other to truly prosper? Probably. But there is one entity that needs the other one a hell of a lot more then the other does. Which history already has proven out... ;)

[e2mtt]

Some seriously delusional Indianapolis 500 worshipers in this thread...

The way I see it are 2 ways the Indy 500 is viable:

The IRL model where Indy runs a full racing series that use the same cars that race at Indy, to allow car owners & drivers full time practice, employment, & amortization of costs.

The CART model where someone besides Indy runs the full series, using cars that allow them to show up and run at Indy as one of their events. The same benefits of a full schedule apply.

If the Indianapolis Motor Speedway were to dissolve the IRL and institute an open set of rules using someting similar to the current car, a new CART type organization would spring up immediately to fill the void of the rest of the season, and we would be back to racing under 2 separate banners.

If the Speedway came up with expensive new car requirements to run only their one race, the Indy 500 would be irrelevant immediately unless the speedway provided the cars to the drivers. There isn't any sound business justification to buy 33+ new modern open-wheel racecars to run 1 race a year.

If the Speedway came up with a bargain sprint-car type setup to make one-off racing cheap, drivers would die.

[SarahFan]

e2..... Delusional? Hardly

if the irl ceased operations today the 500 would run.... And it would run next yaer and the next

AND I think your correct 100%.... Some sanctioning body would spring up over time to run a season for the 'regulars'

but IMO the I500 will continue to be run in some form or fashion for the forseeable future and beyond .... Long after you and I and Gary are worm food

whether the IRL owned by ims/hulmam co will be the sanctioning body for the same for seeable future IMO isn't so certain

[Blancvino]

do i really need to repeat myself...

there are 1000's of teams competing across the country that if the 500 was a stand alone event that are capapble of running a one off...

look no further than indy lights, formula BMW, star mazda, ALMS, grand am... not to mention the 100's of regional champions in the sprints etc...

come on Gary... your smarter than you post....the reason they dont is becuase they dont have the resources to even make the field vs the regulars....

So describe what the field would look like with 33 underfunded teams trying to keep cars together for 500 miles?

[SarahFan]

So describe what the field would look like with 33 underfunded teams trying to keep cars together for 500 miles?


The irl circa 1996-1999

[the bro]

And why limit it to 33. I'm thinking you could probably have around 200 take the green flag. Imagine the spectacle.

[e2mtt]

That would be the ticket. A great variety of chassis - Titan, Merlyn, Lola, Tiga, Crossle, etc. Maybe as many as 10 different makes on the grid. Engine variety too as the Honda Fit motor has just been approved to run in the class along with the Ford Kent.

33 Formula Fords straining to hit 170 flat out isn't quite "The Greatest Spectacle in Racing"

:-)

[e2mtt]

That would be the ticket. A great variety of chassis - Titan, Merlyn, Lola, Tiga, Crossle, etc. Maybe as many as 10 different makes on the grid. Engine variety too as the Honda Fit motor has just been approved to run in the class along with the Ford Kent.

Formula Fords straining to hit 170 flat out isn't quite "The Greatest Spectacle in Racing"

:-)

[SarahFan]

Formula Fords straining to hit 170 flat out isn't quite "The Greatest Spectacle in Racing"

:-)

are 33 dallaras running 220 in race trim and not haveing set a new track record in well over a decade?

[e2mtt]

are 33 dallaras running 220 in race trim and not haveing set a new track record in well over a decade?

No, not really either. Frozen chassis rules have never helped a racing series, and their only usefull purpose is low cost spec-racing for driver development.

[garyshell]

The irl circa 1996-1999


Oh, you mean when the IRL checkbook was open to virtually any and all comers? That's gone. Back to the original question Blancvino posited:


So describe what the field would look like with 33 underfunded teams trying to keep cars together for 500 miles?

Gary

[e2mtt]

I'm very interested to see the day a FF comes within a long distance call of 170. :p

That was my estimate of their top speed at a big track like Indy, with aero tweaks & the wings flat & the gearing just right - everything Penkse & Ganassi could throw at 'em. :-)

[SarahFan]

Oh, you mean when the IRL checkbook was open to virtually any and all comers? That's gone. Back to the original question Blancvino posited:



Gary


again.... 1996-1999


just beacuase you dont like the answer doesnt make it wrong...or is this simply a case of argueing gary again.....remember: your smarter than you post, act like it

[garyshell]

again.... 1996-1999


just beacuase you dont like the answer doesnt make it wrong...or is this simply a case of argueing gary again.....remember: your smarter than you post, act like it


Lose the patronizing attitude.

I do think the answer IS wrong. If the IRL is not funding the owners like they did in 1996-1999 and there is no series, how could it possibly look like it did then. There would be, as Starter stated, a bunch of rag tag underfunded teams trying to run 500 miles. I can't fathom how that could look anything like it did in 1996-1999.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Lose the patronizing attitude.

I do think the answer IS wrong. If the IRL is not funding the owners like they did in 1996-1999 and there is no series, how could it possibly look like it did then. There would be, as Starter stated, a bunch of rag tag underfunded teams trying to run 500 miles. I can't fathom how that could look anything like it did in 1996-1999.

Gary

lose the arguing just to be arguing attitude..... or you can just drop me Fbomb pm... either way i could care less


bottomline is that in 1996 all the well funded top teams in AOWR didnt show up.....and the 500 ran 33 rag tag team/cars/drivers and produced a fine show with a deserving winner


bottomline is the 500 is going nowhere.....certainly not in our lifetime.....the current sanctioning body of the league that supports it sure seems to be evolveing.... look no further than randy's comments regarding the IRL the past couple days

[garyshell]

bottomline is that in 1996 all the well funded top teams in AOWR didnt show up.....and the 500 ran 33 rag tag team/cars/drivers and produced a fine show with a deserving winner

The well funded CART teams didn't show up. But the teams that did join the IRL were well funded, by the IRL aka the Holman-George family. Hardly what I'd call rag tag. With zero funding, I don't see how it could possibly look like 1996 again.


Gary

[SarahFan]

The well funded CART teams didn't show up. But the teams that did join the IRL were well funded, by the IRL aka the Holman-George family. Hardly what I'd call rag tag. With zero funding, I don't see how it could possibly look like 1996 again.


Gary

well then gary we are just going to have to agree to disagree.....but then again more than a century of history is on my side now isnt it


*and BTW ....who said anything about zero funding

[garyshell]

well then gary we are just going to have to agree to disagree.....but then again more than a century of history is on my side now isnt it


*and BTW ....who said anything about zero funding


I hardly think that a century of history is on your side. The days of run what you brung are long gone and that eliminates a good 70 years or more of that century. The advent of carbon fiber chassis wiped all of that away. Most of the history you want to use to prop up your side of this discussion had other races beside the 500 that most of the teams participated in. Only in the very early days was the 500 a one off race. My point is that those other races are not just important, they are mandatory.

The zero funding comes from no funding from the IRL and no other races to help offset the fixed costs.

Gary

[SarahFan]

All your doing is tweaking the argument to fit your need to continue disagreeing

bottom line is the irl could cease operations tomorrow and the 500 would continue have racers and teams show up in some form or fashion for the forseable future

the 500is in no way dependant on the irl.....

[Blancvino]

All your doing is tweaking the argument to fit your need to continue disagreeing

bottom line is the irl could cease operations tomorrow and the 500 would continue have racers and teams show up in some form or fashion for the forseable future

the 500is in no way dependant on the irl.....

In some form or fashion? Now that is a confidience building statement.


Bottom line, Tony George mucked it up and cannot admit to his ineptitude.

[e2mtt]

Sorry, assumed you knew what a formula ford is. It's (mostly) a British & American training class started in the late 60s, early 70s. Single seat; open wheel; no aero; no wings; small tires; weight around 900 lbs; originally a 1600cc Ford Cortina then Kent limited prep motor putting out less than 100hp. A wonderfully competitve training series in it's day with many big names earning a rep there. I'm pretty sure none of them saw over 120 mph even off a cliff. It's still run in SCCA club racing over here (US & Canada) though entries are woefully low these days compared to the 70s and 80s. Not sure if or where they still run in Europe.

Maybe Iam too optimistic... http://www.formulaford.com.au lists their top speed at 250 kph (155 mph) so I thought maybe they could be massaged a little faster yet. I forgot they didn't have any wings at all.

[SarahFan]

In some form or fashion? Now that is a confidience building statement.


Bottom line, Tony George mucked it up and cannot admit to his ineptitude.


well it is what it is.....and what Tony did is an entirely different discussion....bottomline is the split era finnally ended with his removal last year and Randy seems to be doing his job navigating thru the wreckage

[SarahFan]

*my apologies Blancvino...

I thread is in factabout Tony....gary and i just got sidetracked by his silly statement

[Mark in Oshawa]

The irl circa 1996-1999
Boy...THAT was brilliant....never seen so many has been's and never will be's in anyone place. Using old CART cars.....

There is a lot of delusion on this thread....

The fact is the cost of doing ONE race is great enough that with the current safety regs and the cost of chassis and engines and all the rest of it would have to radically change.

You take the IRL, flush it down the toilet, does Chipster, Penske and Andretti Autosport stick around? Is there anyone left to race them? Maybe...maybe not.

All I can say is the series needs Indy, and Indy needs the series. USAC used to run Indy while CART sanctioned the series, but the reality was they lived in an state of truce because the best teams and cars ran with CART all year to amortize the cost of running for one month at Indy. It was/is a symbiotic relationship.

Now OW is on death's door, some just refuse to grasp that the 500 is in peril. Oh it will continue in some form alright, but I can tell you I and a lot of other loyal fans of the event wont be watching it.

Scott, you berate the lack of talent and all the rest of it, but you then say in the next breath how great Indy is and it doesn't need the IRL.....but what you fail to realize none of the talent you will have left will amount to much. Of course, you would like more Americans, but they wouldn't be beating anyone but each other. I guess that works for you...but spare me the fiction of how wonderful it would be.

No 500 would be worth watching if all you had was the spare parts and bits and pieces filling in the holes after 14 or 15 major teams in the IRL all went eleswhere...

I watched the IRL of the immediate post split, and the racing I saw was second rate. There is a reason no one is watching this sport now, and that crap helped bring it down....

[Wilf]

Bottom line, Tony George mucked it up and cannot admit to his ineptitude.
He was so inept, the goal he set was achieved while two other, better, brighter organizations either went out of business or ceased to function and joined his ineptitudeness.

You might not like him or what he did, but he did what he said he was going to do and that was ensure the future of the Indianapolis 500. It is a shame no one was able to bring home your cause.

[garyshell]

He was so inept, the goal he set was achieved while two other, better, brighter organizations either went out of business or ceased to function and joined his ineptitudeness.

You might not like him or what he did, but he did what he said he was going to do and that was ensure the future of the Indianapolis 500. It is a shame no one was able to bring home your cause.


If that was his goal, he was jousting at windmills. The future of the 500 was not threatend then. It was under more threat the past three years than it ever has been. Although I do think the threat is subsiding a bit under Randy's guidance.

Gary

[Blancvino]

He was so inept, the goal he set was achieved while two other, better, brighter organizations either went out of business or ceased to function and joined his ineptitudeness.

You might not like him or what he did, but he did what he said he was going to do and that was ensure the future of the Indianapolis 500. It is a shame no one was able to bring home your cause.

That's all you got?

[Wilf]

What Gary said. The future of the 500 was never in question until the lockout, uh excuse me...the split. Even the bone headed CART owners knew how much the 500 meant.

And that is why they were so very shy in resuming thie discussion of Dan Gurney's white paper and saying the Indianapolis 500 was just another race. Right or wrong, TG took it as a put up or shut up; he put up and they went away.

There were some bad decisions made in the early 90's which led to what many consider the ultimate bad decision. If there was a question, even if it was only in one person's mind, as to whether the Indianpolis 500 could survive without CART, that question has been answer.

[DBell]

And that is why they were so very shy in resuming thie discussion of Dan Gurney's white paper and saying the Indianapolis 500 was just another race. Right or wrong, TG took it as a put up or shut up; he put up and they went away.

There were some bad decisions made in the early 90's which led to what many consider the ultimate bad decision. If there was a question, even if it was only in one person's mind, as to whether the Indianpolis 500 could survive without CART, that question has been answer.

It may have survived, but that is all it's doing. It certainly isn't thriving like it was during the CART years. Remember when a 100 k showed up for pole day? Not like the ghost town it is now on pole day.

Starter and the others are right, the 500 was never in danger and all that crap was one of TG's excuses to make his power play.

[Wilf]

It may have survived, but that is all it's doing.

I rest my case, it survived when others didn't.


Starter and the others are right, the 500 was never in danger and all that crap was one of TG's excuses to make his power play.

Do you wait until a month or two before the race to learn that CART is going to boycott your race before doing something or do you take action when the opportunity presents itself

The CART teams declared themselves as not needing the 500 when the the 25/8 rule issue was resolved the first year and again every year thereafter. You can't say they knew they needed the 500, they chose to do without the 500.

As far as him wanting power, when they asked him to continue developing the IRL, the sole surviving Indy Car sanctioning body, he resigned. I said it before this all this hit the fan, the IRL was a tool to ensure he had a field for the 500. He knew he needed other oval track races and that didn't appear to be the way CART was heading.

I wonder where Indy Car is heading?

[e2mtt]

Man this is good stuff lately. Must be the Indy 500 coming up brings out all the crazy ideas.


I rest my case, it survived when others didn't.



Do you wait until a month or two before the race to learn that CART is going to boycott your race before doing something or do you take action when the opportunity presents itself

The CART teams declared themselves as not needing the 500 when the the 25/8 rule issue was resolved the first year and again every year thereafter. You can't say they knew they needed the 500, they chose to do without the 500.

As far as him wanting power, when they asked him to continue developing the IRL, the sole surviving Indy Car sanctioning body, he resigned. I said it before this all this hit the fan, the IRL was a tool to ensure he had a field for the 500. He knew he needed other oval track races and that didn't appear to be the way CART was heading.

I wonder where Indy Car is heading?

CART boycott? CART choosing to do without? It was Tony George that changed the rules, changed the car specs, & chose to exclude the ones that didn't play his way.

CART never would have left Indy if George didn't force them out.

The IRL never would have run a single race if George hadn't bankrolled all the first teams starting out. In fact, Indianapolis Motor Speedway money doled out by Tony George was the only thing keeping the IRL running each year for the first 10 years.

There are probably teams still running car tubs that Tony George bought them. If Randy Barnhardt can't get new interest, new sponsors, new teams, and new TV money into the sport, the teams will go bankrupt & Indycar will go bust.

Speaking as a huge fan of all types of racing (especially late '80s & early '90s CART) with a keen interest in the business of sports, if Indycar goes bust, it will have been Tony George's fault.

Of course I'm not going to change anyones mind here on the forum, I just having one of those "someone on the internet is wrong, I have to educate them" moods.

[Wilf]

It was Tony George that changed the rules, changed the car specs, & chose to exclude the ones that didn't play his way.

CART never would have left Indy if George didn't force them out.

Winner
1995 Reynard/Ford Cosworth XB
1996 Reynard/Ford Coswoth XB


The IRL never would have run a single race if George hadn't bankrolled all the first teams starting out. In fact, Indianapolis Motor Speedway money doled out by Tony George was the only thing keeping the IRL running each year for the first 10 years.

I believe you.


There are probably teams still running car tubs that Tony George bought them.

Are there any chassis sitting in warehouses that were purchased by CART or CCWS


If Randy Barnhardt can't get new interest, new sponsors, new teams, and new TV money into the sport, the teams will go bankrupt & Indycar will go bust.

I believe some "inept" individual said something similar to that in January a year ago.


Speaking as a huge fan of all types of racing (especially late '80s & early '90s CART) with a keen interest in the business of sports, if Indycar goes bust, it will have been Tony George's fault.

And what do you have to say about all those bright individuals who ran organizations which had a better product featuring truely talented drivers but are now nothing but fond memories?

I really am not interested in debating the last fifteen years but when I see posters forgetting all but one of the errors of the 90's I believe it is necessary to comment.

[Blancvino]

Look, it has morphed into a CART vs IRL Thread. NEXT!

[DBell]

As far as him wanting power, when they asked him to continue developing the IRL, the sole surviving Indy Car sanctioning body, he resigned. I said it before this all this hit the fan, the IRL was a tool to ensure he had a field for the 500. He knew he needed other oval track races and that didn't appear to be the way CART was heading.

I wonder where Indy Car is heading?

Seriously? You don't think Tony getting the boot from the family had anything to do with him resigning his IRL position? He had already lost power, he wasn't going to be the one to make the final call anymore. And Tony, being an all or nothing kind of guy, chose nothing.

But if Tony goal was to save the 500, turn it into a shell of it's former self while driving ratings down by more than half and removing the luster the event once had. And also create a weak series that few care or know anything about to support it. If this was truly Tony's goal, then well played Tony! You've succeeded.

[the bro]

And what do you have to say about all those bright individuals who ran organizations which had a better product featuring truely talented drivers but are now nothing but fond memories?


CART owners had two bad choices, they picked one. As the last 15 years have shown neither choice has worked out very well.

[Mark in Oshawa]

lose the arguing just to be arguing attitude..... or you can just drop me Fbomb pm... either way i could care less


bottomline is that in 1996 all the well funded top teams in AOWR didnt show up.....and the 500 ran 33 rag tag team/cars/drivers and produced a fine show with a deserving winner


bottomline is the 500 is going nowhere.....certainly not in our lifetime.....the current sanctioning body of the league that supports it sure seems to be evolveing.... look no further than randy's comments regarding the IRL the past couple days

Uuhh...Ken. Fine show and deserving winner? Buddy Lazier couldn't get a ride with Dale Coyne in CART in 1994...but all the sudden he was talented? Where did he go when the CART super teams started migrating back?

I watched the 500 every year throughout this time....it was the lowest period for the race and it is part of the reason the IRL is seen as second rate now. You erode your product, you lose audience. Tony George eroded the product by diluting it.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Man this is good stuff lately. Must be the Indy 500 coming up brings out all the crazy ideas.



CART boycott? CART choosing to do without? It was Tony George that changed the rules, changed the car specs, & chose to exclude the ones that didn't play his way.

CART never would have left Indy if George didn't force them out.

The IRL never would have run a single race if George hadn't bankrolled all the first teams starting out. In fact, Indianapolis Motor Speedway money doled out by Tony George was the only thing keeping the IRL running each year for the first 10 years.

There are probably teams still running car tubs that Tony George bought them. If Randy Barnhardt can't get new interest, new sponsors, new teams, and new TV money into the sport, the teams will go bankrupt & Indycar will go bust.

Speaking as a huge fan of all types of racing (especially late '80s & early '90s CART) with a keen interest in the business of sports, if Indycar goes bust, it will have been Tony George's fault.

Of course I'm not going to change anyones mind here on the forum, I just having one of those "someone on the internet is wrong, I have to educate them" moods.
Don't let facts and reality get in the way right? Good post brother....


The sad reality of it is, the Indy 500 is LESS relevent now than it was in 1994 or 1995. That isn't the fault of Andrew Craig, Kevin Kalkoven or Randy Bernard, that is the fault of the guy who spent a ton of his family money trying to drive the car owners out of what he considered "his" business.

There is a few indisputable facts: 1) The 500 was made to be the exclusive property for all intensive purposes of the new IRL, 2) the IRL that started in 1996 was not filled with the most competitive teams or drivers, 3) the IRL was and still is a money losing proposition, 4) the Indy 500 was a bigger deal in 1995 than it is now, and 5) TV ratings for CART/USAC events were FAR better in the early 90's than now.

So people can argue all they like about who did what, or who said what, but the results are clear to see. IRL racing is on life support, the ratings are in the toilet and while they conquered those bad ole nasty car owners in CART, the pyrric victory says to me Tony was the worst thing to hit this sport......

[SarahFan]

Buddy couldn't find a quality seat with a CART team .... Sure

today Paul Tracy can't with the irl....

Sometimes time and place play a factor...... Not just a racers talent

[Mark in Oshawa]

Buddy couldn't find a quality seat with a CART team .... Sure

today Paul Tracy can't with the irl....

Sometimes time and place play a factor...... Not just a racers talent
Where was Buddy racing in 1995 genius?

I didn't see Roger Penske putting him in a ride...

He wasn't anyone's hot prospect. He was/is a journeyman driver who was elevated into the first star of the IRL because basically most of the guys who had talent were contractually going to the other series....

PT cant in today's IRL because the IRL's value is so minimal that outside of the 500, no one wants to spend the money to put PT in a seat.

He has a ride for the 500, and I can guarntee that Geico will get their money's worth out of Paul Tracy....

Sorry if you love Buddy so much Ken, but you and I both know that in the final scheme of things Buddy's name is down as a winner of the Indy 500 but I wouldn't go out on the limb putting him down as one of the 30 greatest Indycar drivers of all time. About 10 of the guys who were NOT there in 96 would be on that short list....

[SarahFan]

What's your point mark?

[Mark in Oshawa]

What's your point mark?

My point is your assertion that the IRL of 96-99 would be a valid replacement if the current IRL died is nonsense. The fact is the 3 500's after the split until the new car came in were some of the most uncompetitive events in terms of depth of field AND talent.....

Sorry, If the IRL died tomorrow, we might have an Indy 500, but I wouldn't want to go far out on the limb that this would be "Better".....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Actually, just went to Wiki, and I will concede Tony Stewart's first go was in 96..so there was some new talent on the way. That said, 32 cars were in the field in 97, where Luyendyk won. Read the quotes that were memorable as listed on the Wiki account of that race too.....and it was clear USAC made a hash of the race....

I remember those years of the Indy 500 as sub par. I watched them, and haven't missed the 500 too often in my life, and I just know that when the finally history of this sport is written from the last 15 years, the lowest points for the 500 was in this early IRL period and I don't think I should apologize for that. So when you say the 500 would be just fine...no...I don't think you do the institution any favours...

[SarahFan]

My point is your assertion that the IRL of 96-99 would be a valid replacement if the current IRL died is nonsense. The fact is the 3 500's after the split until the new car came in were some of the most uncompetitive events in terms of depth of field AND talent.....

Sorry, If the IRL died tomorrow, we might have an Indy 500, but I wouldn't want to go far out on the limb that this would be "Better".....

dude .... your all over the place on this...WTH re you talking about


did i say it would be better?....


you got garyitis or somethin....just want to argue to argue

[SarahFan]

Actually, just went to Wiki, and I will concede Tony Stewart's first go was in 96..so there was some new talent on the way. That said, 32 cars were in the field in 97, where Luyendyk won. Read the quotes that were memorable as listed on the Wiki account of that race too.....and it was clear USAC made a hash of the race....

I remember those years of the Indy 500 as sub par. I watched them, and haven't missed the 500 too often in my life, and I just know that when the finally history of this sport is written from the last 15 years, the lowest points for the 500 was in this early IRL period and I don't think I should apologize for that. So when you say the 500 would be just fine...no...I don't think you do the institution any favours...

I dont disagree with....just supports my point even further......take away the support series and the 500 still runs.....always has always will....will it ever see a point as low as the split era pre Cart teams coming back?.... I have no idea..... but i do know there are some die hard fans at TF that believe that was the high point.... opinions vary, clearly.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

dude .... your all over the place on this...WTH re you talking about


did i say it would be better?....


you got garyitis or somethin....just want to argue to argue

You are the one who posted that the 500 would be JUST fine if the IRL went away..why it would be just like the 96 to 99 500's. Well, I am here telling you that they sucked and they were amateur hour in how they were run...and you NOW say it isn't better? Great...glad we agree, so why would you advocate even this is a good thing in any way? The IRL need to survive as a business model for teams to amortize the cost of running the 500. If it wasn't required, then Tony George really was an idiot creating the IRL.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

As for Gary, I understand where he is going. You, you ask cryptic questions and then say you didn't mean what you said and we have the problem....

[SarahFan]

You are the one who posted that the 500 would be JUST fine if the IRL went away..why it would be just like the 96 to 99 500's. Well, I am here telling you that they sucked and they were amateur hour in how they were run...and you NOW say it isn't better? Great...glad we agree, so why would you advocate even this is a good thing in any way? The IRL need to survive as a business model for teams to amortize the cost of running the 500. If it wasn't required, then Tony George really was an idiot creating the IRL.....

reread the thread..... read what i have ACTUALLY written and get back to me

[SarahFan]

As for Gary, I understand where he is going. You, you ask cryptic questions and then say you didn't mean what you said and we have the problem....

not cryptic at all......

like i just said..... reread the thread... pay attention to what was actually said/written...

then get back to me

this really isnt that hard

[Mark in Oshawa]

Originally Posted by Blancvino :So describe what the field would look like with 33 underfunded teams trying to keep cars together for 500 miles?


Ken/SarahFan: The irl circa 1996-1999

And this would be a good thing?? I was pointing out this woudln't be a good thing...and you of course now say I am picking an argument with you? By posting it, you obviously see this is a good period in the history of Indycar racing???

If not..then quit telling me that I am nuts to point this out.

I think sometimes you don't take a side in actual words just so you can weasel out when it is clear what you said was silly...

[SarahFan]

Originally Posted by Blancvino :So describe what the field would look like with 33 underfunded teams trying to keep cars together for 500 miles?


Ken/SarahFan: The irl circa 1996-1999

And this would be a good thing?? I was pointing out this woudln't be a good thing...and you of course now say I am picking an argument with you? By posting it, you obviously see this is a good period in the history of Indycar racing???

If not..then quit telling me that I am nuts to point this out.

I think sometimes you don't take a side in actual words just so you can weasel out when it is clear what you said was silly...


look mark..... read the ENTIRE thread... pay attention all the way thru

[SarahFan]

BTW... your making my original point even more valid.... thank you

[garyshell]

I think sometimes you don't take a side in actual words just so you can weasel out when it is clear what you said was silly...


But it is you and I who have the "problem" Mark. We just want to be argumentative. Just ask Ken. He'll give a non answer and then when asked to defend it suggest he was saying something else or that we just want to argue about arguing.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

But it is you and I who have the "problem" Mark. We just want to be argumentative. Just ask Ken. He'll give a non answer and then when asked to defend it suggest he was saying something else or that we just want to argue about arguing.

Gary

Well you know Gary. He gives a 5 word answer and never explains himself and he wonders how we can misintpret his thoughts....

They are what they appear to be for 99% of us...

[SarahFan]

is this really that hard for you two....

gary says the I500 is dependant on the irl

I disagree...

when asked what a field would look like i responded the IRL circa 1996-1999

mark says that field sucked

his and alot of others opinion...may or may not be true....

but the point is that the 500 has survived even what mark says was its low point....


my point is simple..... the 500 isnt dependant on the IRL.....it could cease to operate tomorrow and the 500 would run... this year and next and next etc....

would a new league likely pop up to fill the void... most likely it would....doesnt change my point..





now exactly what was your point mark

[SarahFan]

and.....as i said to gary....there is a centuries worth of history to support my stance...

what exactly supports yours and gary's...... that a racer needs an entire season to amortize costs to make the 500 worthwhile.....well there have 100's of one offs that dispute that....look no further than your point about Paul and Geico

[garyshell]

and.....as i said to gary....there is a centuries worth of history to support my stance...

what exactly supports yours and gary's...... that a racer needs an entire season to amortize costs to make the 500 worthwhile.....well there have 100's of one offs that dispute that....look no further than your point about Paul and Geico

Where is the "centuries" [sic] of history, to support the notion that the 500 could exist as a standalone race with no other AOWR series to feed into it? Except for the early pre-war stuff there is no such history at all. Since that time there has always been a series.

Remind me again what team Paul and Geico will be running for? Hardly a "one off". Notice we didn't say a RACER needs an entire season. We said a TEAM does.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

is this really that hard for you two....

gary says the I500 is dependant on the irl

I disagree...

Fine...we now have you saying that....I didn't say it was dependent entirely, but the Indy 500 with no series to support the cars would suck..


when asked what a field would look like i responded the IRL circa 1996-1999

mark says that field sucked

his and alot of others opinion...may or may not be true....

Damn right I say it would suck. They had 32 cars in 97...long cry from the 50 car plus fields and the drama of bubble day....

You take away a supporting series for over 4 or 5 years, tell me how it would PAY to develop a modern race car to chase down the purse? Tell me how the fans would follow any of the drivers? All these teams would just magically appear every May and not have anything to sustain them the rest of the year?


but the point is that the 500 has survived even what mark says was its low point....

It survived, it didn't thrive. It is this sort of argument that makes me wonder why we bother having the conversation. Survival wasn't what it was doing when this BS started.



my point is simple..... the 500 isnt dependant on the IRL.....it could cease to operate tomorrow and the 500 would run... this year and next and next etc....

would a new league likely pop up to fill the void... most likely it would....doesnt change my point..

now exactly what was your point mark

IT would run..but it wouldn't be relevent. I would argue it isn't nearly as relvent now as it was 20 years ago.

You know what my point is....

but I at least will commend you publically for actually fleshing out your point ...we just will disagree...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Here is the section describing the "Aftermath" of the 97 Indy 500 off of Wikipedia. It wasn't a great era for the sport...:


After the 25/8 qualifying controversy, rain delays, and bungling of the final lap by the officials, as well as the scrapping of the split-calendar IRL schedule, the 1997 Indy 500 represented a relative low-point for the then-fledgling IRL. The high attrition exposed growing pains for the new chassis and engine formula. The battle of the engine suppliers was completely one-sided, as Oldsmobile dominated, taking the top 12 finishing positions. Infiniti saw no cars in contention during most of the race.

The race also marked the end of the IRL's lucrative initial exclusive contract with ABC Sports, which was not renewed in its entirely. While the Indy 500 itself would remain on ABC, only a handfull of other races would stay on the network for several years to come.

The first move to make amends was to drop the 25/8 rule permanently. Two weeks later at Texas Motor Speedway, during the inaugural True Value 500, the increasing dissatisfaction with USAC's officiating hit the boiling point. A malfunction in the electronic scoring system scored Billy Boat as the winner of the race. Meanwhile, Indy 500 winner Arie Luyendyk stormed victory lane, claiming he was robbed of the victory. The following day, the error was discovered, and was another black mark on USAC's record. Two weeks later, USAC was officially relieved of the duty of sanctioing the IRL, and was replaced by an in-house effort.

[Scotty G.]

They had 32 cars in 97...long cry from the 50 car plus fields and the drama of bubble day....



Mark, they had 36 cars at Indy in 1997. Which is more then they had in 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007.

There hasn't been 50+ cars at Indy since the mid 80's. There were nowhere near that many in the early 90's. They were struggling just to get to 40, even with a lot of junk still being entered.

Indy 500 car counts were just fine in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002. The "drama" of bump day was as good as it gets in 1999, 2000, 2001 and would have been in 2002 (had it not rained).

Then the IRL started to morph back into CART in 2003 and them days were over.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, they had 36 cars at Indy in 1997. Which is more then they had in 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007.

There hasn't been 50+ cars at Indy since the mid 80's. There were nowhere near that many in the early 90's. They were struggling just to get to 40, even with a lot of junk still being entered.

Indy 500 car counts were just fine in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002. The "drama" of bump day was as good as it gets in 1999, 2000, 2001 and would have been in 2002 (had it not rained).

Then the IRL started to morph back into CART in 2003 and them days were over.

oh yes...the IRL was so superior to CART in 1999 to 2002...so why did we have a merge then? IT was a MONEY LOSER THAT NO ONE WAS WATCHING.

Again Scott, revise your history all you like, the point is if Tony was so dang right, he wouldn't be on the outs with the family and this sport isn't in the toilet. Results are what they are....

[Scotty G.]

1. Remind me again what team Paul and Geico will be running for?

2. Notice we didn't say a RACER needs an entire season. We said a TEAM does.

Gary


1. A ride-buyers team? ;)

2. Bull. There were several teams that used to always show up at Indy and didn't give a damn about the rest of the CART season. Menards team, being the best of that group.

With the ancient spec crap we have now, get a good engineer and a few good crew guys and just about anyone could get up to speed in a hurry at Indy. Whether they run the 16 other warm up races or not. ;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

1. A ride-buyers team? ;)

2. Bull. There were several teams that used to always show up at Indy and didn't give a damn about the rest of the CART season. Menards team, being the best of that group.

With the ancient spec crap we have now, get a good engineer and a few good crew guys and just about anyone could get up to speed in a hurry at Indy. Whether they run the 16 other warm up races or not. ;)

I will buy your argument that Menards could run the one race...but they were but one team, and Mr. Menard was on quest to use that Stock Block V6 to take advantage of the rules. Then Penske sort of blew a hole in the rule...lol..

That said, is that really a valid business model for running a race team? To Mr. Menard it was, but I am sure he would be the first to say he didn't make any money doing it....and would you find enough people like him to field 33 cars?

If the IRL dies, the 500 will continue, but it wont be the quality of field nor will the race be the same. Sorry, I am not buying how the 500 can just exist without a series. LeMans does operate on a simliar theory, but all the teams and owners use the same cars in a series that runs at LeMans. Just the ACO doesn't run it....but trust me, their fields are not as healthy if there is no LMS or ALMS for those teams to play in the rest of the year...

[Scotty G.]

oh yes...the IRL was so superior to CART in 1999 to 2002...so why did we have a merge then? IT was a MONEY LOSER THAT NO ONE WAS WATCHING.




Who said anything about that bankrupt series you brought up?

The Indy 500 was and has never been about the IRL or CART or Champ Car or USAC.

And yes, in several ways (the racing being #1) the IRL was far, far superior to anything CART was dishing out in those years you mentioned. Its too bad the racing now is not even 1/10th as interesting.

And speaking of money losers and nobody watching, we have the Indy Car series of 2010 for everyone to enjoy!!

(The TV ratings say MANY more folks WERE watching back in those days then now. Plus, the series wasn't stuck on some 3rd tier network for most of the year. I am sure you knew that, right?).

[Mark in Oshawa]

Who said anything about that bankrupt series you brought up?

The Indy 500 was and has never been about the IRL or CART or Champ Car or USAC.

And yes, in several ways (the racing being #1) the IRL was far, far superior to anything CART was dishing out in those years you mentioned. Its too bad the racing now is not even 1/10th as interesting.

And speaking of money losers and nobody watching, we have the Indy Car series of 2010 for everyone to enjoy!!

(The TV ratings say MANY more folks WERE watching back in those days then now. Plus, the series wasn't stuck on some 3rd tier network for most of the year. I am sure you knew that, right?).

Oh yes....but What did the IRL do to lose those fans? Nothing....except people realized watching 20 cars running around Kansas with their foot the floor wasn't as exciting the 3rd or fourth time around as it was the first.

Fine...make it an all oval series....it worked SO well that Tony was adding road courses 3 years ago. It WASNT WORKING Scott.....

[SarahFan]

Fine...we now have you saying that....I didn't say it was dependent entirely, but the Indy 500 with no series to support the cars would suck..



Damn right I say it would suck. They had 32 cars in 97...long cry from the 50 car plus fields and the drama of bubble day....

You take away a supporting series for over 4 or 5 years, tell me how it would PAY to develop a modern race car to chase down the purse? Tell me how the fans would follow any of the drivers? All these teams would just magically appear every May and not have anything to sustain them the rest of the year?



It survived, it didn't thrive. It is this sort of argument that makes me wonder why we bother having the conversation. Survival wasn't what it was doing when this BS started.




IT would run..but it wouldn't be relevent. I would argue it isn't nearly as relvent now as it was 20 years ago.

You know what my point is....

but I at least will commend you publically for actually fleshing out your point ...we just will disagree...


my point was clear from the start....