Costs of A Current WRC season v Proposed WRC season.

[bassist]

Much has been said about the likely savings of Introducing IRC cars into the WRC, with all the revised regulations- 1.6 t engines etc! Can anyone out there give a comparison of the likely budget of say BP Ford team in 2011 compared to their current outlay for this years WRC? I just think it would be interesting to compare the costs and what the saving is! Anyone got any thoughts.

[Zeakiwi]

I will be surprised if there is a WRC event held down under in a few years time. That should save some costs.

[mjh]

I don't know, but I do know that Mr Chandler was on record flipping his lid after the technical regs were agreed recently, because he expected the saving between current WRC and the S1600T format would be minimal......

[MJW]

S2000 is the biggest lie that it is a cheap alternative, normally aspirated engines that rev to 9000 rpm need rebuilding a very short intervals. (S1600 engines were on 400km €16,000 re-build schedules a few years ago) I can see the logic in 1.6T engines as when the world is out of this recession the next crisis is going to be energy costs and by the end of the decade all cars will have smaller capacity turbocharged engines so its the way that the car industry is going. The worry is as quoted by mjh is that the gearboxes are now going to be pneumatically / hydraulically operated. (and getting hydraulics right is difficult and expensive) so I fear that we wont have such a saving that brings manufacturers in droves. Prodrive need an outlet for their skill set, and now that F1 aint happening they are pushing for Mini, almost as a last chance to re-establish the company after the Subaru ending. What manufactures want is to sell cars, if there is value in the WRC they will join it. Savings will be made in the new regs. but not massive savings.

[bassist]

S2000 is the biggest lie that it is a cheap alternative, normally aspirated engines that rev to 9000 rpm need rebuilding a very short intervals. (S1600 engines were on 400km €16,000 re-build schedules a few years ago) I can see the logic in 1.6T engines as when the world is out of this recession the next crisis is going to be energy costs and by the end of the decade all cars will have smaller capacity turbocharged engines so its the way that the car industry is going. The worry is as quoted by mjh is that the gearboxes are now going to be pneumatically / hydraulically operated. (and getting hydraulics right is difficult and expensive) so I fear that we wont have such a saving that brings manufacturers in droves. Prodrive need an outlet for their skill set, and now that F1 aint happening they are pushing for Mini, almost as a last chance to re-establish the company after the Subaru ending. What manufactures want is to sell cars, if there is value in the WRC they will join it. Savings will be made in the new regs. but not massive savings. MJW, you are only enforcing the opinion I had prior to posting.The WRC needs more manufactures to boost competition/interest. If the costs associated with the new championship are similar to the existing, then I cant see it happening ( I hope I`m wrong).And what about National level-and how are we to get a top ten of these new beasts, and where does that leave any grass route talent who want to compete at this level? Perhaps us average punters have been spoilt over the years, and we shouldnt aspire to watching these awesome vehicles other than once a year!

[AndyRAC]

MJW, you are only enforcing the opinion I had prior to posting.The WRC needs more manufactures to boost competition/interest. If the costs associated with the new championship are similar to the existing, then I cant see it happening ( I hope I`m wrong).And what about National level-and how are we to get a top ten of these new beasts, and where does that leave any grass route talent who want to compete at this level? Perhaps us average punters have been spoilt over the years, and we shouldnt aspire to watching these awesome vehicles other than once a year!

You, and MJW have hit the nail on the head. Everybody expecting Manufacturers joining in droves are in cloud-cuckoo land. It just isn't going to happen. WRC/Rallying doesn't offer them what they want. However, if the cars were simple, cheap, etc then maybe a few more would join, but it's not looking likely, especially with all the expensive equipment.
Talking about National level events - last weekend saw the Pirelli Rally, BRC - with only 1 S2000 car entered!! Compare to the same weekend in Italy and the Rallye 1000 Miglia - and about 15-20 S2000's, I think.

[Motorsportfun]

You, and MJW have hit the nail on the head. Everybody expecting Manufacturers joining in droves are in cloud-cuckoo land. It just isn't going to happen. WRC/Rallying doesn't offer them what they want. However, if the cars were simple, cheap, etc then maybe a few more would join, but it's not looking likely, especially with all the expensive equipment.
Talking about National level events - last weekend saw the Pirelli Rally, BRC - with only 1 S2000 car entered!! Compare to the same weekend in Italy and the Rallye 1000 Miglia - and about 15-20 S2000's, I think.

25 S2000 cars.

Anyway, it's the pinnacle of the sport out of circuits. It's normal that have high costs. Compared to 2005 (when almost all manufacturers left the WRC), you see a shorter calendar, new regulations that give you the possibility to compete in WRC and in WTCC with a single engine (look out at BMW or Seat, they could work on the same engine for Mini and VW in rallying! Jean Todt in Marrakech talked about it with the teams).

Last but not least, there is a promoter that finally has interest to grown up the commercial aspect of WRC.
In their plans there are giant key markets for Manufacturers and sponsorships, like China, India or Abu Dhabi. NOW, look at the 2011 calendar. There is no Turkey for Greece (a rally which travelled from military bases to equestrian centers to casinos! No budget, no good organisation in the last years... WRC don't need just the name, but good events!), Jordan for Abu Dhabi (politically Jordan was in favour of Ari Vatanen and Abu Dhabi was for Jean Todt. Jean inverted all!).

There are a lot of strange people in the FIA. Hope North One will be able to have some freedom with that particular people... :rolleyes:

[AndyRAC]

You have a lot of faith in NorthOne - personally, they come across as clueless.

[amilk]

25 S2000 cars.

Anyway, it's the pinnacle of the sport out of circuits. It's normal that have high costs. Compared to 2005 (when almost all manufacturers left the WRC), you see a shorter calendar, new regulations that give you the possibility to compete in WRC and in WTCC with a single engine (look out at BMW or Seat, they could work on the same engine for Mini and VW in rallying! Jean Todt in Marrakech talked about it with the teams).

Last but not least, there is a promoter that finally has interest to grown up the commercial aspect of WRC.
In their plans there are giant key markets for Manufacturers and sponsorships, like China, India or Abu Dhabi. NOW, look at the 2011 calendar. There is no Turkey for Greece (a rally which travelled from military bases to equestrian centers to casinos! No budget, no good organisation in the last years... WRC don't need just the name, but good events!), Jordan for Abu Dhabi (politically Jordan was in favour of Ari Vatanen and Abu Dhabi was for Jean Todt. Jean inverted all!).

There are a lot of strange people in the FIA. Hope North One will be able to have some freedom with that particular people... :rolleyes:


North One had to much freedom and for me their work had some negative aspect

- they lost Monte
- calendar with some race like Bulgaria without market, tradition
- they lost one major broadcast Eurosport
- they focus to much for internet, online game etc. which is not the priority

basically as the promotion of WRC becomes worse in my eyes

and North One speak about WRC that there is a turnaround and everithing on the right way.
I'M hapy with Jean Todt who is coming and interesting for WRC.

[AndyRAC]

North One had to much freedom and for me their work had some negative aspect

- they lost Monte
- calendar with some race like Bulgaria without market, tradition
- they lost one major broadcast Eurosport
- they focus to much for internet, online game etc. which is not the priority

basically as the promotion of WRC becomes worse in my eyes

and North One speak about WRC that there is a turnaround and everithing on the right way.
I'M hapy with Jean Todt who is coming and interesting for WRC.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks like you. Getting rid of 'iconic' events, replacing them with events in 'big markets' with no history. Jean Todt is supposed to be un-impressed by NorthOne.

[Motorsportfun]

North One had to much freedom and for me their work had some negative aspect

- they lost Monte
- calendar with some race like Bulgaria without market, tradition
- they lost one major broadcast Eurosport
- they focus to much for internet, online game etc. which is not the priority

basically as the promotion of WRC becomes worse in my eyes

and North One speak about WRC that there is a turnaround and everithing on the right way.
I'M hapy with Jean Todt who is coming and interesting for WRC.

You're talking about decisions made by International Sportsworld Communicators (just Eurosport, but look at how many contracts were signed in the last months) and the FIA (Monte - for old regulations - and Bulgaria), so NOT North One.

Internet in the future will be a "key", as it will keep the possibility to spectators all around the world to bring the wrc drama. Think, for example, at South African fans: it's extremely expensive for them to go to NZ or Argentina or Europe to follow a rally. ONline gaming was just a proposal (update your mind :D ), they're not going forward on it for now.
But let's talk about sponsors. They want massive exposure, ando on the internet too, of course! Brands like Coca Cola (thinking to Mexico Rally), being in a Playstation game it's heavily interesting, because the brand is seen by the child, who can maybe ask 10 minutes later a Coke.

Another example? In Italy, we lost Eurosport coverage (on pay-tv), but we found a FREE-TO-AIR tv who broadcasts the WRC, although we don't have a Manufacturer or a top driver in the series. Is it that worse? Don't think so... :rolleyes:

For what about rallies, think at Tour De Corse. Was that event able to host a WRC rally? I was there some years ago, and I have seen a ugly organization. Just a few stages repeated lots of time (12 stages during the weekend), a very small Service Park and bad areas for the Media in the Rally HQ. I'm happy that Tour de Corse was removed from the calendar. Same thing, in my opinion, for Acropolis Rally. There is just the name left 'glorious', but the organisation looks like the Titanic. It's may-day. Going from equestrian centres, to military bases to casinos it's not - IMHO - a good postcard for the rally and for the WRC too. I'd rather like a Turkish or Cyprus event (spectators, mixed surfaces, governments, sponsors, etc.). And Jean Todt, maybe, could understand what I mean, being in F1 until last year.

Let me say another thing to Andy: you thinks ONLY to history and ONLY to the past, but IMO you don't go to certains WRC rallies to see how are they organized.

sry for the long post.

[Motorsportfun]

Let me add another thing. The Monte left the WRC and signed for Eurosport Events because they complained no freedom for the routes. The FIA now has given the possibility to run the rally in 4 days, with mixed surfaces, in the night, with remote services. Why they're not going back? All pretests are now over.

Simply, Michel Boeri and ACM are quite arrogant. They want to be in charge of all.

It's not the case, thanks God.


Jean Todt is supposed to be un-impressed by NorthOne.

lol

Jean Todt is also a cheater. He decided to remove Abu Dhabi (who voted for him) for Jordan (who voted and announced to public to be in favour of Ari Vatanen). Don't forget that. :D

[ShiftingGears]

Jean Todt is also a cheater. He decided to remove Abu Dhabi (who voted for him) for Jordan (who voted and announced to public to be in favour of Ari Vatanen). Don't forget that. :D

What?

As far as I know Abu Dhabi has nothing as far as roads for rally go. How that relates to the topic or why you brought it up is anyones guess.

[Motorsportfun]

What?

As far as I know Abu Dhabi has nothing as far as roads for rally go. How that relates to the topic or why you brought it up is anyones guess.

Abu Dhabi in a year time has built an island, with F1 circuit, 7-stars hotel, marina and theme park... and they're not able to put some tarmac in the desert for some hundred of km of roads (was able Jordan, with much less money)?

rotfl that's not a Situation Comedy. :D

[AndyRAC]

North One is the new name for ISC....

[Motorsportfun]

North One is the new name for ISC....

...but there's not the same people.

[amilk]

I'm fully agree that we can not live from the past......if a traditional event scrap let's change it. But if ther is a change it must bring improvement. Are you sure Turkey, Jordan was better than Greece. The major broadcast is television and from the television we don't see if there is military area or casino around/behind the race. Just the spectacle which could be there even the event not so strong financially. I agree that if we visit a rally is not egal what is the enviorement around (service park etc). From this point of view look Sweden this year as example- airport without people, poor Dave Richard invited BWM peoples there - and compare it with Norway the indoor arena. But the same for Sardinia - spectacular race in term of television with not so much spectator. We have to see the whole picture not to pick up a world like "casino" and to say that the event is scrap.
IRC promoter Eurosport doing live coverages since years - what do in this direction North One? I don't heard about any road map. Instead of increase the minutes on the screen its a step back this year. I'M happy with youtube in-car fotages, nice, but it touch less people and peoples who is realy fan but not the so cold "market" for what car makers are interested.

[Motorsportfun]

IRC promoter Eurosport doing live coverages since years - what do in this direction North One? I don't heard about any road map. Instead of increase the minutes on the screen its a step back this year. I'M happy with youtube in-car fotages, nice, but it touch less people and peoples who is realy fan but not the so cold "market" for what car makers are interested.

IRC is broadcasted ONLY on Eurosport. Where other tv broadcast it, except the VNR footage? WRC since this year in various nations is FREE TO AIR, which is extremely important IMHO.

North One started to work 1 January, 2010 and he started making a media-story with the WRC launch in Paris. When ISC did something like that? Never! It's 5 years that there is no Playstation game, now it's under construction, same for website.

And from 2011 also all the footage will be produced in Native HD!

If that's not a good commitment...

[Ghostwalker]

the car is just one part of the costs, the teams will still have the same(?) costs for things like research, catering, mechanics, PR, transports and etc...

cost saving was one one of the arguments when the ETCC/WTCC was started using S2K cars but how many factory teams is there in WTCC today?

[Tomi]

I don't heard about any road map. Instead of increase the minutes on the screen its a step back this year.

from where did you get this, or is it somekind of i think like this so it has to be like this? Here atleast they will show WRC more than ever before in tv.

[amilk]

from where did you get this, or is it somekind of i think like this so it has to be like this? Here atleast they will show WRC more than ever before in tv.

I have no data - feeling in terms of minutes on the screen and the availability of this channels also important.

[OldF]

The worry is as quoted by mjh is that the gearboxes are now going to be pneumatically / hydraulically operated. (and getting hydraulics right is difficult and expensive) so I fear that we wont have such a saving that brings manufacturers in droves.

Do you have a source for this information? If it’s true the cost will increase if 100.000 euros gearboxes are allowed. It would be better with same type of gearboxes used in S2000 at the moment.


the car is just one part of the costs, the teams will still have the same(?) costs for things like research, catering, mechanics, PR, transports and etc...

cost saving was one one of the arguments when the ETCC/WTCC was started using S2K cars but how many factory teams is there in WTCC today?

That’s true but I think designing and developing a WRC car accounts for the major costs today.

[MJW]

Do you have a source for this information? If it’s true the cost will increase if 100.000 euros gearboxes are allowed. It would be better with same type of gearboxes used in S2000 at the moment.



That’s true but I think designing and developing a WRC car accounts for the major costs today.
There was an article in UK publication Motorsport News - apparently Morrie Chandler was unhappy about the situation (about the gearboxes) and so was Christian Loriaux. It can post post an electronic version.