Spanish Grand Prix [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

Saint Devote

2nd May 2010, 16:17

I think next Sunday's grand prix is being awaited with almost as much excitement as the start to the season.

There is an urgency in the Ferrari camp because they know that time is not on Alonso's side. The current engine has a flaw that was overlooked between 2009 and 2010 - the pneumatic valve leak problem that eventually creates a situation that blows it up between 900 and 1100 km's.

Being Spain is there any other driver that will be able to overcome Alonso with Ferrari probably preparing everything as they will for Monza - that extra little intensity. Alonso WILL be driving them.

I dont support him but I am a great fan of the Spaniard - he will be in "Nigel Mansell at Silverstone" mode and he fully understands that if the FIA do not allow any tweak, the Ferrari team will have to push hard.

Can they? I think the team at Ferrari are weaker than when Schumi was there so it is all down to him.

So I pick Fernando for a win - but WOULD naturally prefer it to be Jenson who drove that most amazing third sector last year to beat Vettel for the pole and drives well at Catalunya.

Going into the next part of the championship leading and after winning two of the first four races in difficult conditions in a car he is beginning to really like, in a relaxed frame of mind compared to the previous year - the natural Jenson is showing. Happily :D

Malbec

2nd May 2010, 19:30

I'm not holding out hope for Barcelona providing a great race unless the weather plays tricks on us. Its usually a two by two grid as the cars are superoptimised thanks to the pre-season testing there and as Bahrain showed without a mixed up grid we get hardly any overtaking.

It will however give us a good idea of where the teams are relative to each other as we get into the real meat of the season. I'll be interested to see how the new teams in particular shape up.

SGWilko

2nd May 2010, 21:08

If it rains, will the shoe be up to 6 secs a lap faster or slower than all the others?

Answers on a postcard to;

I've run out of Kleenex (again)
THAT CORNER
San Marino

Saint Devote

3rd May 2010, 03:27

As someone nurtured on the racing in the 1970's, while the driver does not count in the same way, the drivers are now also used to the new tyres.

The racing is very close and I disagree that the race is decided on the Saturday.

And anyway, that is also a false argument - just look at sports like athletics, tennis [talk about mind numbing boredom] or boxing. The seeded or rated competitors almost always end up winning.

But then I guess racing is trying to cater to the needs of a generation with the concentration of gnats. Racing is not for them.

There IS an enjoyable race when drivers push each other until the flag.

Saint Devote

3rd May 2010, 03:31

F1boat

3rd May 2010, 07:48

Sonic

3rd May 2010, 09:43

I am looking forward for a regular race, for I am curious about the true pecking order of teams. My guess is that RBR are still in front and young Sebastian is favorite to win. But as our friend Devote said, Alonso will be very motivated and Jenson too seems in perfect condition now.

Indeed. We need a dry race so we can see where everyone lies now.

I doubt the cars are quite as superoptimised as in previous years as a) they don't test here as often now. And b) most of the cars are completely different from the last time the came to Spain 3 months ago.

I'm not expecting a thriller, but perhaps a tense GP, with the top half dozen close on times and on track.

Malbec

3rd May 2010, 12:07

Define a "great race".

I remember Monte Carlo Grands Prix hailed by all, featuring no changes in the top positions.

Or maybe its a double standard - nothing new in that.

Isn't it interesting that you suggest I have double standards merely by suggesting that Barcelona isn't going to provide a great race just as it has often failed to do so in the past. Very telling.

Malbec

3rd May 2010, 12:11

I think Lewis will be keen to prove a point that not only his race pace is better than Jenson's but also his qualifying pace. This is something he needs to work on and Barcelona is one of the fastest tracks of the season so far, so this will be heavily on Lewis's mind heading into the weekend. The teams lost almost a week with the European no fly zone, so updates may be less implemented as some teams hope. Schumacher will be interesting to watch as Brawn has declared they have designed a new chassis which is more catered towards his driving style. Will this be the first race he finishes ahead of Nico?? :)

I agree, the intra-team battles will be very interesting. Namely can Lewis, Michael, Felipe and Mark reverse the lack of pace or results they've shown against their teammates so far.

Michael especially is running out of time to prove that his return isn't doomed to failure given the large gap between himself and Nico. I hope he manages to close the gap.

Saint Devote

3rd May 2010, 13:02

Isn't it interesting that you suggest I have double standards merely by suggesting that Barcelona isn't going to provide a great race just as it has often failed to do so in the past. Very telling.

The double standard exists generally, where there is no complaint about Monte Carlo, yet there will be if there is no constant overtaking at Catalunya.

The constant moaning by ANYONE regarding overtaking or "boring races" in f1 should stop now.

Saint Devote

3rd May 2010, 13:09

I agree, the intra-team battles will be very interesting. Namely can Lewis, Michael, Felipe and Mark reverse the lack of pace or results they've shown against their teammates so far.

Michael especially is running out of time to prove that his return isn't doomed to failure given the large gap between himself and Nico. I hope he manages to close the gap.

I dont think Schumi is running out of time. He is a very sensitive driver and if the car is not set-up to his liking then there are problems.

Remember in this era of control tyres and no testing - if a car is not quite suited then a driver will find difficulty. The days of driving around a problem are unfortunately past.

Mercedes will never drop Schumi - he would leave if he thought it was over. But there is a longer wheelbase car for Barcelona and it is after all only the fifth race back. Its not that easy even for the great Schumi.

Saint Devote

3rd May 2010, 13:14

I think Lewis will be keen to prove a point that not only his race pace is better than Jenson's but also his qualifying pace. This is something he needs to work on and Barcelona is one of the fastest tracks of the season so far, so this will be heavily on Lewis's mind heading into the weekend. The teams lost almost a week with the European no fly zone, so updates may be less implemented as some teams hope. Schumacher will be interesting to watch as Brawn has declared they have designed a new chassis which is more catered towards his driving style. Will this be the first race he finishes ahead of Nico?? :)

Lewis is trying too hard. He said himself that he needs to adjust his technique to compete with Jenson. His main problem has been that he is much harder on his tyres than Button. Although the decision making over pitting has been one of some confusion also.

ioan

3rd May 2010, 18:54

Schumacher will be interesting to watch as Brawn has declared they have designed a new chassis which is more catered towards his driving style. Will this be the first race he finishes ahead of Nico?? :)

That's BS. He will use the same chassis he used in pre-season testing, hardly a new design.
What Mercedes are doing is to improve the weight balance of the car by lengthening the wheelbase on both cars. And this again doesn't qualify as a new chassis, given that only the suspension geometry will change.

Malbec

4th May 2010, 00:29

The double standard exists generally, where there is no complaint about Monte Carlo, yet there will be if there is no constant overtaking at Catalunya.

The constant moaning by ANYONE regarding overtaking or "boring races" in f1 should stop now.

I don't find the racing at Monte Carlo particularly interesting either, although I find the DRIVING there rather impressive. Neither did I find the 'racing' at Bahrain particularly spectacular.

There are no double standards there.

Triumph

4th May 2010, 01:01

I'm expecting Red Bull's early season advantage to dwindle as the other teams catch up in the usual fashion. I think Sebastian will be right up there though.

I'm expecting a better result from Lewis, another good one from Jenson and a good one from Fernando, assuming no mechanical issues.

I'm not sure about Michael. I hope he finds something he likes with the new car set up.

:)

Malbec

4th May 2010, 01:30

I dont think Schumi is running out of time. He is a very sensitive driver and if the car is not set-up to his liking then there are problems.

Remember in this era of control tyres and no testing - if a car is not quite suited then a driver will find difficulty. The days of driving around a problem are unfortunately past.

I disagree completely. The mark of a truly great driver is the ability to drive around problems and Michael himself has shown himself more than capable of doing that, his early record at Ferrari is proof.

Remember that this problem with having an understeery front end due to narrower front tyres is a situation that is new to everyone with the tyre size changes introduced from this season onwards. Nico et al have had as much experience as Michael himself with this kind of handling. Witness how Lewis has coped despite having a similar style to Michael with a preference for quick turn in and a flighty rear end. Whilst he is also trailing his teammate a lack of pace is not one of Lewis's problems. No other leading driver is having as much difficulty adjusting to the new 2010 cars even though some of them are not as talented as Michael. That is worrying.

Also the sheer size of the gap in pace is in itself a cause for alarm, even Kazuki Nakajima was closer to Nico's raw pace than Michael currently is. That in itself is rather damning. I hope Michael can close the gap for he would be a sight to see if he gets close to his prime.

Saint Devote

4th May 2010, 01:51

I don't find the racing at Monte Carlo particularly interesting either, although I find the DRIVING there rather impressive. Neither did I find the 'racing' at Bahrain particularly spectacular.

There are no double standards there.

Well, f1 is not going to change in the direction you are seeking - it is just not in the sports' dna and never has been.

I just wonder why you even bother watching. I certainly would not.

:D I presume Le Mans is just NOT on your calendar!

Malbec

4th May 2010, 01:54

Well, f1 is not going to change in the direction you are seeking - it is just not in the sports' dna and never has been.

I just wonder why you even bother watching. I certainly would not.

:D I presume Le Mans is just NOT on your calendar!

A rather presumptious post since you have no idea why I watch the sport. One could ask the same of you, if after all these years of watching the sport you still struggle to understand it why do you bother?

Saint Devote

4th May 2010, 02:06

I disagree completely. The mark of a truly great driver is the ability to drive around problems and Michael himself has shown himself more than capable of doing that, his early record at Ferrari is proof.

Remember that this problem with having an understeery front end due to narrower front tyres is a situation that is new to everyone with the tyre size changes introduced from this season onwards. Nico et al have had as much experience as Michael himself with this kind of handling. Witness how Lewis has coped despite having a similar style to Michael with a preference for quick turn in and a flighty rear end. Whilst he is also trailing his teammate a lack of pace is not one of Lewis's problems. No other leading driver is having as much difficulty adjusting to the new 2010 cars even though some of them are not as talented as Michael. That is worrying.

Also the sheer size of the gap in pace is in itself a cause for alarm, even Kazuki Nakajima was closer to Nico's raw pace than Michael currently is. That in itself is rather damning. I hope Michael can close the gap for he would be a sight to see if he gets close to his prime.

No other leading driver has returned from a three year hiatus completely away from racing into a new era. All the top drivers Schumi is competing against have had since the intro of control tyres in 2007 to learn and adapt.

It is not at all easy and debatably the most difficult era to come into cold turkey with only effectively a few days of testing beforehand.

People like JV and LH, two drivers that could have won the WDC in their debut season and did win in their second, drove thousands of km of testing.

The significance of an even more difficult situation is the smaller front tyres.

Driving around a problem these days is not on because it results in slowness.

In addition, Schumacher has not had smooth races either. In China [could have been Australia??] for example his pit stop destroyed his race because of the problems with the left front. It returned him right at the back.

But then again, just look how he handled Hamilton. In the Brawn-Illmor he kept the better car behind him for FIVE laps until Lewis used his cars better accelaration off slower corners to get by on the inside.

Those five laps for me were some of the best of the season. Schumacher has not lost it.

Never mind Rosberg - he still has to learn how to win a grand prix.

The way the media and commentators are treating Schumi is disgraceful. Instead of respect and consideration he is being attacked. This is pitifully ignorant.

Lets give him time to find his proper "firing solution". This is not some middle-aged nobody. Why not rather encourage him and cheer him on for this? It is wonderful just to have him back, and he is not exactly performing like Badoer or Fisichella is he now?

He is the great Schumi. A man of ironclad self-esteem. He will be the first one to declare its over if that is what the case is.

Roamy

4th May 2010, 02:22

I am giving him the whole season to come good. But in fairness JV should get a ride as well. But if he doesn't come right I am putting on my MS cheater hat
and smiling like a chesser cat

Rollo

4th May 2010, 02:38

No other leading driver has returned from a three year hiatus completely away from racing into a new era.

Niki Lauda.

I do believe that he retired in 1979, then returned in 1982... only to be World Champion in 1984.

i_max2k2

4th May 2010, 07:17

Niki Lauda.

I do believe that he retired in 1979, then returned in 1982... only to be World Champion in 1984.

Well your right on the point, he retired when he was 30, returned when he was 33, and I do think he must have had decent practice before his return. And most importantly he won the championship in his 3rd year. So we must give Schumacher more time, before judging him or scrutinizing him barbarically like what the media is doing. I'm glad he is very strong mentally to have said he is very motivated. But I must say even this comparison is not fair, we are talking about 2 totally different times, the cars then and now are very different, just like the personnel handling them.

Retro Formula 1

6th May 2010, 14:12

The double standard exists generally, where there is no complaint about Monte Carlo, yet there will be if there is no constant overtaking at Catalunya.

The constant moaning by ANYONE regarding overtaking or "boring races" in f1 should stop now.

Well, sorry to disappoint but the Weather promises to give us one of those horrible exciting races with unpredictability and overtaking.

You may want to sit this race out :)

Sleeper

6th May 2010, 14:38

I disagree completely. The mark of a truly great driver is the ability to drive around problems and Michael himself has shown himself more than capable of doing that, his early record at Ferrari is proof.
We're in a completely different era of highly secialised cars now that have to be driven at or near their limit for them to work anywhere near their potential. Small problems can still be driven around, but large ones definitely cant be side stepped.

Remember that this problem with having an understeery front end due to narrower front tyres is a situation that is new to everyone with the tyre size changes introduced from this season onwards. Nico et al have had as much experience as Michael himself with this kind of handling. Witness how Lewis has coped despite having a similar style to Michael with a preference for quick turn in and a flighty rear end. Whilst he is also trailing his teammate a lack of pace is not one of Lewis's problems. No other leading driver is having as much difficulty adjusting to the new 2010 cars even though some of them are not as talented as Michael. That is worrying.
The understeer problem is Mercedes specific as they seem to be the only team suffering chronic understeer. This is the complete antithesis of his driving style which requires a very pointy front end, possibly to a greater extent than any other driver in F1, and no one can adapt their style to the complete opposite of what they prefer and still expect to be fast, not in this day and age anyway. The hope is that the lengthened wheelbase will give better aero to the front end and help end this problem, then we'll see where Michel is.

Also the sheer size of the gap in pace is in itself a cause for alarm, even Kazuki Nakajima was closer to Nico's raw pace than Michael currently is. That in itself is rather damning. I hope Michael can close the gap for he would be a sight to see if he gets close to his prime.
In the first 3 races Michael was actually getting closer to Nico on pace, and was certainly closer than Nakajima ever got last year. But then came China and god knows what happened there. The two suggestions are that the car was either damaged from those first 3 races and/or the setup they tried didnt solve the understeer problem and just gave them far worse traction and oversteer.

Like I said, if the updates cure the understeer problem, this race could really show us where Shuey is.

fandango

6th May 2010, 18:32

Well, sorry to disappoint but the Weather promises to give us one of those horrible exciting races with unpredictability and overtaking.

You may want to sit this race out :)

It's been a sh**e week weather-wise here in Barcelona. Rain for two days, Monday and Tuesday, and then cloudy with the odd shower since then. Temperatures have really dropped, too.

Not that I'm expecting sympathy from anyone further North, of course :)

It's going to be a much cooler race this year than usual, which may play havoc with tyres temperatures. There is also the possibility of showers, but it's unlikely to be a repeat of the downpour of 1996.

F1boat

6th May 2010, 21:04

Well, sorry to disappoint but the Weather promises to give us one of those horrible exciting races with unpredictability and overtaking.

You may want to sit this race out :)

This may help Jenson, St. Devote will be happy ;)

Saint Devote

7th May 2010, 02:52

Niki Lauda.

I do believe that he retired in 1979, then returned in 1982... only to be World Champion in 1984.

Without wanting to be pedantic - it was just over two years. But it was not at all a different era similar to the change in f1 seen since 2006.

Super Rat won his third race :D

Saint Devote

7th May 2010, 02:56

I'm tipping Lewis to beat Jenson this weekend, well I live in hope.. :p

Jenson has always found Barcelona quite tough so with a car which is more evenly matched with its closest rivals, I think we're in for an exciting race. :)

Like when he drove the quickest third sector last year and quickly had the Vettel mechanics stopping smiling in their tracks as they were celebrating pole position!

Jenson does find Catalunya tough! Only pole position in 2009 :vader:

Saint Devote

7th May 2010, 03:02

This may help Jenson, St. Devote will be happy ;)

Its not so much an easy call straightforward wet race that Jenson excells at but when conditions are uncertain and the track is just plain slippery.

I have no specific desires for the weather because Jenson can win in any conditions :D

Saint Devote

7th May 2010, 03:06

Well, sorry to disappoint but the Weather promises to give us one of those horrible exciting races with unpredictability and overtaking.

You may want to sit this race out :)

:eek: Heaven forbid! I have NEVER done that. I always find something enjoyable in a grand prix :D

Malbec

7th May 2010, 05:04

No other leading driver has returned from a three year hiatus completely away from racing into a new era. All the top drivers Schumi is competing against have had since the intro of control tyres in 2007 to learn and adapt.

Be clear as to what you're talking about, the problem with control tyres or the narrower front tyres which is something that only came into being for 2010. Control tyres are not difficult to get used to, after all IIRC Michael started his F1 career with them. As I said, Michael has had as much experience with the narrower fronts as everyone else has had. He's the only one not on the pace. Why?

Driving around a problem these days is not on because it results in slowness.

Really? It results in a loss in speed now for 2010 but didn't before? Why?

In addition, Schumacher has not had smooth races either. In China [could have been Australia??] for example his pit stop destroyed his race because of the problems with the left front. It returned him right at the back.

Ok I'll give him that. I also know that Alguesuari was unbelievably dirty and that Michael was complaining that he was weaving and braketesting in Oz. Lets strike Oz off the list then. I've also wondered/hoped that he was on a dry setup whilst Rosberg was on a wet setup (or vice-versa) for several races but his results don't fit with that hypothesis either.

But then again, just look how he handled Hamilton. In the Brawn-Illmor he kept the better car behind him for FIVE laps until Lewis used his cars better accelaration off slower corners to get by on the inside.

Racecraft and pace are two different things. With your four decades of F1 fanship under your belt I'm sure you know the difference. I'm not questioning his racecraft, its his pace I'm worried about.

Never mind Rosberg - he still has to learn how to win a grand prix.

Very good, lets ignore Rosberg's advantage over Schumacher because he hasn't won a grand prix. Right, that negates his speed advantage doesn't it.

Lets face it, if Schumacher was quicker than Rosberg even if he didn't outscore him, we wouldn't be worried would we?

He is the great Schumi. A man of ironclad self-esteem. He will be the first one to declare its over if that is what the case is.

Ironclad self esteem? Have you seen him talking to the press recently? The guy is putting the best spin on a bad job and it frankly pains me to see him the way he is at the moment. He doesn't have a great self esteem regarding his race performance at the moment, that should be obvious from his attitude.

i_max2k2

7th May 2010, 07:27

Be clear as to what you're talking about, the problem with control tyres or the narrower front tyres which is something that only came into being for 2010. Control tyres are not difficult to get used to, after all IIRC Michael started his F1 career with them. As I said, Michael has had as much experience with the narrower fronts as everyone else has had. He's the only one not on the pace. Why?

I guess 3 yrs wouldn't make any difference at all? Also the car he is driving was designed keeping in mind that Button would be driving it, he likes his car with understeer. And except China where i believe they tried to balance the car somehow to get artifical oversteer, which terribly back fired, in all other races, schumacher had reduced the gap between him in Nico, so if we take out China, it hasn't been all that bad of a start.

Really? It results in a loss in speed now for 2010 but didn't before? Why?

Again a totally different car then what he would have developed had he been in the team in 2009, the 2005 Ferrari was way off pace, and he could still drive it around, to finish 3rd, thats more like driving around problems, not if the car is totally different from something you have ever driven.

Racecraft and pace are two different things. With your four decades of F1 fanship under your belt I'm sure you know the difference. I'm not questioning his racecraft, its his pace I'm worried about.

Same as above, his pace except in China has been alright so far.

Ironclad self esteem? Have you seen him talking to the press recently? The guy is putting the best spin on a bad job and it frankly pains me to see him the way he is at the moment. He doesn't have a great self esteem regarding his race performance at the moment, that should be obvious from his attitude.

I fail to see how he has done a bad job, he is 4 races coming into a season after 3 yrs, finishing in respectable places in all races, unlike Fischicella who couldn't fit well after just jumping into a different car in the same season. In contrast I would say this is a pretty decent start. We need to give him time, before ridiculing his effort, when he hasn't even settled, if he was in the same position say a year later, I would be worried then, not now.

Mia 01

7th May 2010, 14:03

It loks like Lewis will be the fastest in FP1 - 3. Good luck to him.

fandango

7th May 2010, 19:39

I know it's not usually the most exciting race on the calendar, but when it's your home race you take what you have. A very enjoyable day out in Montmeló today.

Alonso looks strong, building his pace gradually. The Red Bulls are on another level completely, though, but if they slip up Alonso will be there. And I think we may be looking at the real Schumacher comeback now - he looks confident. Is this the first session of the year where he's been quicker than Rosberg?

Shifter

7th May 2010, 19:46

I wonder what the dealio is with Alonso's left arm? I'm sure though he'll put in a good performace through the pain, but it was odd seeing him drive one-handed and reaching across the cockpit to adjust the brake bias on the left with his right hand. Ferrari appears to have placed extra padding in front of the steering wheel.

ioan

7th May 2010, 19:56

jens

7th May 2010, 20:12

Looking at the times I must admit I'm a little disappointed in Lotus. I don't know if they were hiding anything in reserves, but a 1.5-2 second improvement in the car was expected! But now it looks like their relative position in terms of time gaps is the same as in China.

A video about the Barcelona upgrades too: :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ1xYrrDypI&feature=player_embedded

Mia 01

7th May 2010, 22:08

Seb will walk this agin.

I´m sorry for Nico, Ross, is it worth it?

ioan

7th May 2010, 22:33

I´m sorry for Nico, Ross, is it worth it?

You're right, Ross should have hired Nick instead of Nico. :p

Mia 01

7th May 2010, 22:48

Nico will beat MS on saturday and sunday as usual.

Shifter

7th May 2010, 22:51

He was using the left arm to block the airflow towards their F-duct.

That makes sense if it's true, has it been reported/discussed anywhere? Here in the U.S. during the FP2 broadcast the announcers put the in-car shot up along with Alonso flexing his left arm in the garage as if it were giving him trouble.

ioan

7th May 2010, 22:53

That makes sense if it's true, has it been reported/discussed anywhere? Here in the U.S. during the FP2 broadcast the announcers put the in-car shot up along with Alonso flexing his left arm in the garage as if it were giving him trouble.

There are some videos on a certain site where you can see how he does it.
he is probably not yet used to doing it so his arm might feel sore from this exercise.

You can also see that both him and Felipe have a different glove on their left hands than that one the right hand.

ioan

7th May 2010, 22:54

Nico will beat MS on saturday and sunday as usual.

Why not wait and see?

Sleeper

7th May 2010, 23:14

ioan

8th May 2010, 00:51

Didn't see anyone mention that Klien drove the HRT for the first time today during the first practice session and was 0.5 seconds per lap faster than Senna.

airshifter

8th May 2010, 02:36

Didn't see anyone mention that Klien drove the HRT for the first time today during the first practice session and was 0.5 seconds per lap faster than Senna.

We did get some US coverage of Klien on track, but I didn't see any times. It doesn't surprise me at all that he topped Senna's times.

Saint Devote

8th May 2010, 04:54

The difference is that Schumi is Schumi and we have to rely upon Brawn for deciding that it is in Mercedes interests to rework the car around Schumacher.

Except for drivers like Prost and Button, it is very unusual for champion drivers to favour understeer. And anyone that has ever stood at a corner and seen Schumacher will know how he can control such a loose car.

The confidence that the new car - it looks like it anyway but this is early and do not write Nico off too quickly - has instilled in Schumi evidently has made up the time he was losing.

And confdence in the car is a vital ingredient for all drivers to extract the maximum and give a hundred percent.

To me the whole body language of number 3 looked like the Schumi we all know so well. Gone is the twitchy car of several weeks ago.

It ran beautifully! For me his performance was the highlight of Friday.

Saint Devote

8th May 2010, 05:00

Nico will beat MS on saturday and sunday as usual.

Schumi was the only driver that Hamilton had difficulty passing in China. It took the Brit FIVE laps and once Schumi even had Hamilton all crossed up and almost off at the last hairpin.

And this was the great German driver in a car in difficult conditions that was not to his liking.

Qualifying and the race are still aheas but you dismiss Schumacher too lightly - which makes me wonder of you saw him race before his return. Never underestimate him.

Nico could well beat him, but I do think that Schumi is beginning to find his "firing solution" :vader:

Saint Devote

8th May 2010, 05:10

Anyone else notice that for the first time since his return, Schumi was smiling and waving at the camera? A very good sign I think!

Saint Devote

8th May 2010, 05:19

Be clear as to what you're talking about, the problem with control tyres or the narrower front tyres which is something that only came into being for 2010. Control tyres are not difficult to get used to, after all IIRC Michael started his F1 career with them. As I said, Michael has had as much experience with the narrower fronts as everyone else has had. He's the only one not on the pace. Why?

Really? It results in a loss in speed now for 2010 but didn't before? Why?

Ok I'll give him that. I also know that Alguesuari was unbelievably dirty and that Michael was complaining that he was weaving and braketesting in Oz. Lets strike Oz off the list then. I've also wondered/hoped that he was on a dry setup whilst Rosberg was on a wet setup (or vice-versa) for several races but his results don't fit with that hypothesis either.

Racecraft and pace are two different things. With your four decades of F1 fanship under your belt I'm sure you know the difference. I'm not questioning his racecraft, its his pace I'm worried about.

Very good, lets ignore Rosberg's advantage over Schumacher because he hasn't won a grand prix. Right, that negates his speed advantage doesn't it.

Lets face it, if Schumacher was quicker than Rosberg even if he didn't outscore him, we wouldn't be worried would we?

Ironclad self esteem? Have you seen him talking to the press recently? The guy is putting the best spin on a bad job and it frankly pains me to see him the way he is at the moment. He doesn't have a great self esteem regarding his race performance at the moment, that should be obvious from his attitude.

Schumacher had to get used to control tyres because previously they were boutique tyres and he did not have three years to get used to them. But it was complicated because the weight distribution on the narrow tyres caused problems for him - hence the adjusted wheelbase on the car.

Rosberg not winning a grand prix is because he has not found the way - his best chance was in China and he did not even manage to hold on to second.

Until he does, he will doubt he can and it will affect his driving. Its like that in anything. The first time any person succeeds raises confidence because you then KNOW that you can do it.

Roamy

8th May 2010, 07:02

what a crock - Nico gets screwed for beating the cheater. classless mercedes

Mia 01

8th May 2010, 08:18

what a crock - Nico gets screwed for beating the cheater. classless mercedes

This.

8th May 2010, 11:40

Mystic Mia.. :p
http://www.techchuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/meg.jpg
Question is, do I watch the race?? :eek:

No need, as you will whisked off your feet on Sunday morning and taken on a romantic horse-drawn carriage ride by a tall, dark stranger with a cravatte and a monocle.

Otherwise known as SGWilko.

It's in the tea leaves.

8th May 2010, 11:51

Will he show up this time though? After the B&B fiasco I'm afraid he might let me down. I'll leave this coffee and have a brew instead just to double check.. :laugh:

Haven't you learnt, he's a bounder and a cad who preys on niave ladies such as yourself.

SGWilko

8th May 2010, 12:27

No need, as you will whisked off your feet on Sunday morning and taken on a romantic horse-drawn carriage ride by a tall, dark stranger with a cravatte and a monocle.

Otherwise known as SGWilko.

It's in the tea leaves.

You paint me in a nice light, but I am short, fat, ugly, have no dress sense and wear glass bottle bottom glasses.

If you read the tea leaves, it means your tea bag split sweetie.....

SGWilko

8th May 2010, 12:29

Will he show up this time though? After the B&B fiasco I'm afraid he might let me down. I'll leave this coffee and have a brew instead just to double check.. :laugh:

Meet me in St Louis.... :laugh:

SGWilko

8th May 2010, 12:30

Haven't you learnt, he's a bounder and a cad who preys on niave ladies such as yourself.

Tamb, stop looking in the mirror when posting, silly old girl.

Mia 01

8th May 2010, 12:45

Mystic Mia.. :p
http://www.techchuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/meg.jpg
Question is, do I watch the race?? :eek:

Watch the races? I have every reason to do so.

So far it´s looking good for Seb, poor Lewis.

I have brown hair.

SGWilko

8th May 2010, 12:48

Watch the races? I have every reason to do so.

So far it´s looking good for Seb, poor Lewis.

I have brown hair.

Poor Lewis, why?

Dave B

8th May 2010, 12:58

The only person being seduced by a tall dark man in a cravatte and a monocle is Nick Clegg...

SGWilko

8th May 2010, 13:00

The only person being seduced by a tall dark man in a cravatte and a monocle is Nick Clegg...

Well, he is the kingmaker, apparently......

Saint Devote

8th May 2010, 13:02

what a crock - Nico gets screwed for beating the cheater. classless mercedes

I hate to implode your illusion, but "cheating" has been going on since racing began - and one of the best at it was Enzo Ferrari.

It is also grossly unfair to allow certain incidents to dominate your view of Schumi. Indeed he can never be placed on the same level of integrity that Damon Hill is at - but that was another time and it was never premeditated.

His ability cannot be denied - lets give Ross the benefit of the doubt. At this stage at least, it appears he considers Schumi the better driver to rely on,

Given Nico's tendency to "fall off" at important junctures in a race, how can anyone fault the decision?

Anyway, the season if far from over and what the trend is this weekend does not imply it will be so from now on.

And of course there is Monte Carlo next weekend..........

Dave B

8th May 2010, 13:27

In the UK BBC qualifying live on Red Button / page 3001 / Freeview 301 in case you're wondering :)

Robinho

8th May 2010, 13:34

just found it myself after wondering if the Election coverers have had enough sleep

Sonic

8th May 2010, 14:36

Ahhh co<k! What the hell Rubens? The updated car gets beaten by the rookie in the basic model. Bugger.

Sonic

8th May 2010, 14:53

Go Kobay! Woot woot woot. Team Kobayashi maru rides again babay!

Sonic

8th May 2010, 14:55

Ahhh co<k! What the hell Rubens? The updated car gets beaten by the rookie in the basic model. Bugger.

Updated: Rubens says the updates were removed as they were a failure! Even worse news for Williams :(

Sonic

8th May 2010, 15:12

Bye bye red bulls! 3/4 of a second *wow*

Great laps by Webs and Kubica. :D

ShiftingGears

8th May 2010, 15:14

Red Bulls are very dominant. Hope Webber can translate pole into a victory. :up:

ioan

8th May 2010, 15:16

Has anyone else noticed the outboard mirrors have gone but the posts remain? Isn't that now an aero device???

Yes it is but in that area it is allowed.

ioan

8th May 2010, 15:17

Nico will beat MS on saturday and sunday as usual.

Why not wait and see?

;)

truefan72

8th May 2010, 15:18

hmm that was a good qualy,. those RBR 's are on a different planet
It seems strange that they would be 1 second faster than the competition.
But the race is a different matter. Schumi does better than Rosberg That was dicey by Alonso in the pits. The race is setting up quite nicely. I hope that those two rBR drivers don't wreck each other in the first turn. i know Webber hates to yield, and Vettel likes to push. The race is setting up nicely.

ShiftingGears

8th May 2010, 15:35

For Mercedes the modifications have meant Schumacher has taken one step forward but Rosberg has taken two steps back. It hasn't seemed to make the car relatively faster than the competition at all.

Tazio

8th May 2010, 15:36

Red Bull looks unstopable. I'm going back to bed :)

AndyL

8th May 2010, 15:38

I don't like seeing everyone straightlining the chicane in the middle of the lap, putting all four wheels off the track. On more than one occasion in qualy drivers clipped the gravel trap and dragged gravel onto the track. They need to make those kerbs bigger for next year.

Valve Bounce

8th May 2010, 15:50

Anyone else notice that for the first time since his return, Schumi was smiling and waving at the camera? A very good sign I think!

He was still celebrating Bunsen's win.

ioan

8th May 2010, 15:51

For Mercedes the modifications have meant Schumacher has taken one step forward but Rosberg has taken two steps back. It hasn't seemed to make the car relatively faster than the competition at all.

Maybe because the competition didn't sit on their hands meanwhile?!

ShiftingGears

8th May 2010, 16:11

Maybe because the competition didn't sit on their hands meanwhile?!

Well yes, but to be honest I was expecting the Mercedes upgrade to do a bit more than merely maintain their relative pace.

ioan

8th May 2010, 16:22

Well yes, but to be honest I was expecting the Mercedes upgrade to do a bit more than merely maintain their relative pace.

Why? Are they that much better at engineering than RedBull, McLaren and Ferrari?

Unless they find something special none of the teams can easily leapfrog their opposition during the season.
Luckily mercedes have got MS otherwise Rosberg's pace would start a thread about who should replace him?! :D

PS: Who designed the Mercedes W01?

ShiftingGears

8th May 2010, 16:40

Why? Are they that much better at engineering than RedBull, McLaren and Ferrari?

Usually with a much anticipated and fairly major upgrade I was expecting something to indicate that it was a step forward compared to the competition, like closing up on their closest rivals, at least. That is all.

jens

8th May 2010, 17:35

So we have seen qualifying and the changes in pecking order for the beginning of the European season.

Well, the first thing that can be recognized, is that Ferrari is losing ground. In the first qualis (Bahrain and Australia) Ferrari was the only one, who got close to Red Bull, but now they are already behind McLaren. It looks like McLaren has managed to overcome issues over one lap, actually the signs of this were visible already in China. Is this another sign of McLaren's usual strong in-season development pace, while Ferrari's advantage of early concentration for 2010 is disappearing?

Red Bull's domination is helped by a very suitable circuit for them (an ultimate test for aerodynamics), but still their advantage is quite astounding. Almost 1 second per lap - it would be embarrassing if they failed to win the titles with such massive pace advantage.

Both Kobayashi and Hülkenberg are gradually coming good, just wait and see for that. Their struggles in the beginning of the season have been down to inexperience and a tough car to drive. Glock only a tenth faster than di Grassi despite having an updated car - not much improvement there, eh (except finishing the race at full speed :p :) ?

Lotus has improved a bit relative to the competition, both in terms of gap to the front and advantage over other newcomers, but admittedly I was expecting more.

ioan

8th May 2010, 18:08

Usually with a much anticipated and fairly major upgrade I was expecting something to indicate that it was a step forward compared to the competition, like closing up on their closest rivals, at least. That is all.

I think they all hope that their big updates will yield more performance than those of the competition, this doesn't happen often though.

fizzicist

8th May 2010, 18:16

Red Bull's domination is helped by a very suitable circuit for them (an ultimate test for aerodynamics), but still their advantage is quite astounding. Almost 1 second per lap - it would be embarrassing if they failed to win the titles with such massive pace advantage.

Looking at the practice times they only have that sort of advantage on the soft tyre - Red Bull seem to be able to get more ultimate pace over a short period than anyone else but race distance may be different.

DazzlaF1

8th May 2010, 18:58

Tazio

8th May 2010, 19:18

Im very worried tomorrow that it could be a borefest at the front, Red Bull over 3 quarters of a second quicker than everybody else, if they are reliable, they will just stroll away from the rest of the field. :(
On qualifying, The Red Bulls were awesome! The Boss, Fred, and Bunsen barely had a pube between them time wise.
That should be an interesting dice. Hopefully one or two of them can rain on Red Bulls parade.
One can only hope

Sonic

8th May 2010, 19:21

Im very worried tomorrow that it could be a borefest at the front, Red Bull over 3 quarters of a second quicker than everybody else, if they are reliable, they will just stroll away from the rest of the field. :(

Could do, but we have a thrilling contest between 4 wdc's to look forward to.

Here's hoping Lewis banzi's up past one or both RB's to keep thing entertaining :D

ioan

8th May 2010, 19:27

Looking at the practice times they only have that sort of advantage on the soft tyre - Red Bull seem to be able to get more ultimate pace over a short period than anyone else but race distance may be different.

Might be, but when you have a 0.7 seconds/lap advantage you can look after your tires easily.

edv

8th May 2010, 19:50

The Boss, Fred, and Bunsen barely had a pube between them time wise.

What?!? Verstappen is back?

Tazio

8th May 2010, 20:03

What?!? Verstappen is back?

A Fanboy on another forum started calling LH "The Boss" because of the BOSS advert on his gear.
Not the biggest fan of his but I know a good nickname when I hear one.
Here's another one for you (one of my own creation):
"Kubinski" I don't expect it to catch on though! :rotflmao:

Big Ben

8th May 2010, 20:14

If skies stay clear... well I´ll put on the alarm just in case

Tazio

8th May 2010, 21:43

Welcome back from your ban.. ;)

Thanks Bro!!

steveaki13

8th May 2010, 22:09

I hope Lewis can put his seat up the inside of 1 or both of the Red Bulls to hold up the Red Bulls race.
Webber I imagine will hope that he gets one because by the time Vettel is able to pass (on track or pits) Webber could be gone.

steveaki13

8th May 2010, 22:11

I also hope we see a classic 4 way world champions fight.
Despite my fear it will be less than a classic tomorrow I am still really excited.

SGWilko

8th May 2010, 22:25

I also hope we see a classic 4 way world champions fight.
Despite my fear it will be less than a classic tomorrow I am still really excited.

The configuration of the track in Spain rewards aero efficiency - certainly where downforce is concerned.

I don't see the gulf between RB and the rest being quite so wide elsewhere.

Lets just see if they overheat the tyres with the load they put on them.....

ioan

9th May 2010, 00:22

Lets just see if they overheat the tyres with the load they put on them.....

Given their pace advantage they can easily make one more pit stop and still win by a margin.

i_max2k2

9th May 2010, 00:32

Given their pace advantage they can easily make one more pit stop and still win by a margin.

Yep their pace is frantically bad, I hope it rains, just a little bit to force pitstops and shuffle the order, it would be nice to see them fighting out with the less faster cars :D

Valve Bounce

9th May 2010, 03:32

What?!? Verstappen is back?

No! Tazz is.

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 05:36

Its not a foregone conclusion that RBR will win at all. At RBR strategy is not their strong point and both Webber and Vettel are prone to making errors under pressure.

Hamilton and Vettel side by side into turn one?!! Remember what happened in Shanghai - if Hamilton starts well, it could be an accident waiting to happen.

And the Mclaren pace is usually better in the race than qualifying.

This is a race that could well come to the drivers that do not treat it like a sprint. This favours Jenson, Alonso and Schumacher.

And Alonso will be really fired up at his home race.

Webber was REALLY impressive - he answered Vettel all the way. Qualifying has already served up a surprise and, the race, could well do the same.

tf109b

9th May 2010, 07:37

Hamilton races when he needs to race. If his tires go off it's because he's out there RACING. Unlike some of you other racers (no names). Slow and steady wins the race, but maybe racing should be just what it says. Racing. Not pacing. Pacing isn't racing. F1 should be a sprint. It is supposed to be the fastest form of motor racing. Not hang around on worn tires going half @ss so you don't lose your pace. This is the thing about refueling that's attractive. With no refueling we get races of tire management. This I think is a sham. F1 shouldn't be tire management racing. It should be who's the fastest racing. In terms of raw pace no one has touched Hamilton this season. At least over race distances. I don't think rain is needed. If Hamilton can stick his neck up there and get close to one of the red bulls, he'll find a way past, but in the mean time he'll grain his tires because of this. I still think he's got a good shot at winning. I'm taking him with vettel 2nd and Alosno 3rd. Webber will feel the heat unless he pulls away. I see him getting passed at the start by Vettel and Hamilton on the first lap.

ShiftingGears

9th May 2010, 09:01

Hamilton races when he needs to race. If his tires go off it's because he's out there RACING. Unlike some of you other racers (no names). Slow and steady wins the race, but maybe racing should be just what it says. Racing. Not pacing. Pacing isn't racing.

Winning at the slowest possible speed and pacing yourself so you get the most out of your car and tyres has always been a part of racing. Hate to break it to you.

F1boat

9th May 2010, 09:25

Given their pace advantage they can easily make one more pit stop and still win by a margin.

This might be the strategy of RBR - why trying to make the tyres last longer when you can win simply by sheer pace?

ioan

9th May 2010, 11:15

Well with rain on the cards I think the Red Bulls need to be mindful that Hamilton is their closest rival.

Vettel is not bad in the rain either.

Mia 01

9th May 2010, 11:37

I´m afraid it will be a pile up in the first corner. Both Alonso and Lewis has something to prove.

Dave B

9th May 2010, 13:20

Unlike some of you other racers (no names). Slow and steady wins the race, but maybe racing should be just what it says. Racing. Not pacing. Pacing isn't racing. F1 should be a sprint.
How many more points do you score if you win by a lap as opposed to a car length? Zero.

It's always been like that, and hopefully always will. Maybe you could have a bonus point for fastest lap as in some touring car series, but F1 has always been as much about strategy as anything else. If you don't understand that, or don't approve of that, maybe you're watching the wrong sport.

Robinho

9th May 2010, 14:06

and surely the first driver to finish is the one who covered the distance quickest? if that isn't the definition of the quickest i don't know what is

Daniel

9th May 2010, 14:41

Who was in that Virgin car?

veeten

9th May 2010, 15:12

I guess we can call Schu the '8-ball', because no one wants to be stuck behind him... :p :

Valve Bounce

9th May 2010, 15:46

My pickems were going good for awhile - now they are buggered :(

Daniel

9th May 2010, 15:46

Rotten luck for Lewis :( Still walloped Button though

F1boat

9th May 2010, 15:51

Well done for Mark, Fred and Michael!!!

Hawkmoon

9th May 2010, 15:52

Rotten luck for Lewis :( Still walloped Button though

True, but it's not the first time we've seen Hamilton in the scenery because of a blown tire.

Daniel

9th May 2010, 15:54

Well it was a wheel failure once non?

ioan

9th May 2010, 15:54

A pity for both Lewis, especially, and Seb to be plagued again by mechanical problems.

Robinho

9th May 2010, 15:55

looked like suspension failure initially to me

Valve Bounce

9th May 2010, 15:56

Great drive from SchM

Robinho

9th May 2010, 15:56

tough luck for lewis, bad and good for Seb, to finish 3rd after the difficulties, could have easily been a dnf.

great drive from webber, perfect qually and race

Hawkmoon

9th May 2010, 15:58

The left front takes a beating around Barcelona and that's what failed. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a wear-related failure.

Robinho

9th May 2010, 15:59

yeah, looked like the hub or suspension failed and then took the tyre with it

Dave B

9th May 2010, 15:59

Schumacher still at least a second per lap slower than Vettel or Alonso ahead of him, and we were denied the chance to see what Nico could have done in a more normal race. It's strage that Button couldn't pass MS though, in what was clearly a quicker car.

Not a classic race by any means, what little drama there was came from failures and mistakes rather than out-and-out racing.

ShiftingGears

9th May 2010, 15:59

Great drives from Mark, Lewis and Michael.

F1boat

9th May 2010, 16:01

Yes, Jenson managed to protect his tyres despite the great duel with MS and got the points.

F1boat

9th May 2010, 16:02

Daniel

9th May 2010, 16:04

It wasn't a tyre failure. 99% sure. Whitmarsh agrees

F1boat

9th May 2010, 16:05

Than really rotten luck, but I am quite happy that Fred scored many points for Ferrari.

Daniel

9th May 2010, 16:25

Yes, Jenson managed to protect his tyres despite the great duel with MS and got the points.
Did he protect his tyres? He himself admitted that he cooked them :rotflmao:

Mia 01

9th May 2010, 16:33

Congratulations Mark, Fernando and Seb.

Seb did a good job taking it to the finish.

Poor Lewis. He should have pitted for a new set of tires. A lesson for next race.

MS did OK.

F1boat

9th May 2010, 16:35

Did he protect his tyres? He himself admitted that he cooked them :rotflmao:

He finished and got some points, not the best race for him, but still not too bad.

Daniel

9th May 2010, 16:36

He finished and got some points, not the best race for him, but still not too bad.
I'm well aware of that, but he DIDN'T manage his tyres well as you said.

steveaki13

9th May 2010, 16:41

Although not an out right classic I enjoyed the race and by Spain standards it was a good race.

This race was different by the fact of how much the fields pace varied.
We had Webber on one pace with Hamilton, Vettel & Alonso battling 15-20 seconds behind, then the midfield over a minute behind, and the cars in the points lapped for the first time since Britain 2008.
Then main runners i.e Liuzzi, Hulkenberg lapped twice.

i_max2k2

9th May 2010, 16:57

A decent race, made interesting by glitched pitstops, and late race reliability problems for seb and ham. I think MSC did very well to defend a much faster Jenson. And I don't think Nico could have done better, he in Malaysia gave up the position to button, by his error, I din't see any from Michael. Webber did extremely well and thoroughly deserved the win. Felt bad for Ham though he did do well to keep ahead of Seb.

UltimateDanGTR

9th May 2010, 17:31

an OK race, better than I expected. Such a shame for Lewis, he had done very well up to that point. More reliability concerns for Vettel though, thye need to get that sorted.

and the button vs schumacher battle was rather enjoyable for a period.

spudrsca

9th May 2010, 17:41

hamilton today.

spudrsca

9th May 2010, 17:42

kovailanen in 2008 Barcelona.

UltimateDanGTR

9th May 2010, 17:47

kovailanen in 2008 Barcelona.

thanks for sharing those 2 pics, they show how similar the 2 incidents, albeit 2 years apart were. something wrong how mclaren set up for spain perhaps? maybe tyre managment at catalunya? hmm, does seem very strange ad your pics emulate that.

spudrsca

9th May 2010, 17:49

Mclaren has switched the crew of Hamilton to Button this year isn't it?

markabilly

9th May 2010, 18:04

:s nore: no rain :s nore:
wake me up when it rains again....

F1boat

9th May 2010, 18:13

:s nore: no rain :s nore:
wake me up when it rains again....

I enjoyed the race very much, a bit tense, especially in the end.

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 18:47

True, but it's not the first time we've seen Hamilton in the scenery because of a blown tire.

Hamilton is rough on his machinery - Jackie Stewart commenting on Chris Amon "always" having tyre problems continues to hold true.

Lewis matey - you have to learn how to conserve your car. Being quick is not enough. How many races did he finish when tyres and fuel stops were de rigeur only BECAUSE the pit stops existed?

It is not accidental that Lewis is now 20 points behind his teammate.

Daniel

9th May 2010, 18:53

Hamilton is rough on his machinery - Jackie Stewart commenting on Chris Amon "always" having tyre problems continues to hold true.

Lewis matey - you have to learn how to conserve your car. Being quick is not enough. How many races did he finish when tyres and fuel stops were de rigeur only BECAUSE the pit stops existed?

It is not accidental that Lewis is now 20 points behind his teammate.

Guide to Saint Devote posts. Usually a Saint Devote post consists of the following ingredients in this order.

A) Insightful historical comment made by reputable figure TAKEN TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT as "evidence" that Saint Devote is right.

B)Suggestions for driver/team as if Saint Devote is some master driver rather than just a guy behind a keyboard.

C) Sycophantic statement extolling the virtues of St Button.

SGWilko

9th May 2010, 18:55

Hamilton is rough on his machinery - Jackie Stewart commenting on Chris Amon "always" having tyre problems continues to hold true.

Lewis matey - you have to learn how to conserve your car. Being quick is not enough. How many races did he finish when tyres and fuel stops were de rigeur only BECAUSE the pit stops existed?

It is not accidental that Lewis is now 20 points behind his teammate.

Look, right now all the evidence points to rim failure not tyre failure. The tyres would last without issue.

It was very clear there was a breakage - most likely in the rim, given the sudden nature of the deflation of the tyre. A failure of the tyre due to being worn excessively generally results in delamination and bits of tyre flapping about all over the shop.

Maybe you want to discuss the mrits of JB's overtaking technique instead of the diversionary thread tactics....

Daniel

9th May 2010, 19:01

kovailanen in 2008 Barcelona.
Thanks for the pictures. Undeniable proof that is wasn't Lewis' fault despite what some ignorant people seem to think.

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 19:02

It's strage that Button couldn't pass MS though, in what was clearly a quicker car.

Besides being Catalunya where overtaking is pretty difficult - no it is not at all strange that Button had difficulty with Schumi.

I have thus far watched every single one of Schumacher's races during his career and I saw nothing different to what he usually does. Remember even in China, in an understeering car in the rain, Hamilton took five laps to find a way past and then Schumacher managed to push him so far out he almost went off.

Jenson has totally different racing ethics to Schumi. Button [like Kubica] is an adherent of the Mario Andretti school - "you gotta give a guy room". And still today when a car gets close behind another, the front washes away.

Jenson brought the car home in the points and this is always important.

Naturally I understand Jense's frustration, but honestly I saw nothing wrong that Schumacher did and Mclaren's pit stop was TWO seconds slower than Brawn's on the Schumacher passing of Jenson's lap.

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 19:07

Look, right now all the evidence points to rim failure not tyre failure. The tyres would last without issue.

It was very clear there was a breakage - most likely in the rim, given the sudden nature of the deflation of the tyre. A failure of the tyre due to being worn excessively generally results in delamination and bits of tyre flapping about all over the shop.

Maybe you want to discuss the mrits of JB's overtaking technique instead of the diversionary thread tactics....

Jenson always does his best and I have already written my thoughts on the enjoyable Jense versus Schumi battle.

I cant help your being upset that "Mr. Perfect" crashed again!

SGWilko

9th May 2010, 19:07

Thanks for the pictures. Undeniable proof that is wasn't Lewis' fault despite what some ignorant people seem to think.

I did think of the similarities between the two incidents, but, I believe that the Kovy issue was a stone lodged between rim and hub, which effectively jammed the wheel solid with the hub.

Not sure the exact nature of Lewis's off, but I think the debris has lodged between tyre and rim, and gradually caused the rim or tyre wall to degrade and ultimately fail under load.

Could be completely on wrong on all counts of course!!!

Daniel

9th May 2010, 19:08

Jenson always does his best and I have already written my thoughts on the enjoyable Jense versus Schumi battle.

I cant help your being upset that "Mr. Perfect" crashed again!

So basically you'll willing to ignore the cold hard FACTS to make a driver look bad and make Jenson look like the bestest? :rotflmao:

Daniel

9th May 2010, 19:12

What did you expect Daniel? :p
I sense a rather worried Button fan who has realised just how much faster Lewis is than Jenson.
Personally I expect such people to be banned tbh. Differences of opinion are one thing, but completely ignoring the FACTS and then pulling quotes out of your **** and doing a good impression of the Iraqi information minister is just not on.

ioan

9th May 2010, 19:13

Yes, Jenson managed to protect his tyres despite the great duel with MS and got the points.

:rotflmao:

ioan

9th May 2010, 19:18

Hamilton is rough on his machinery - Jackie Stewart commenting on Chris Amon "always" having tyre problems continues to hold true.

Lewis matey - you have to learn how to conserve your car. Being quick is not enough. How many races did he finish when tyres and fuel stops were de rigeur only BECAUSE the pit stops existed?

It is not accidental that Lewis is now 20 points behind his teammate.

It wasn't a tire failure. Why not try to get some first hand info before posting?
BTW how come that a retired driver passed and beat Jensy today? The more I think the more I come to the conclusion that Flav's curbstone related comments last season were his truest words in F1.

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 19:19

SUPERB!! race by Webber. This is definitely his best win. He had an answer for his highly regarded teammate in every way this weekend. The only driver that actually deserved to win today.

Enjoyed the Schumi - Jenson battle. Naturally Jense was a bit tense over it and naturally I wanted Button to overtake him. It would have been a far better race for Jense if Mclaren had not been 2 seconds than Brawn in the pit stop.......

But I am also so pleased that Schumi is finding his "firing solution". Monaco could be very telling.

Hamilton did his usual "crashing on the last lap" act that occurs several times a year. Just shows that being proclaimed as the next Prost, Senna or Schumacher requires more than British hype.

Alonso is still my selection for winning the title this year. Great result for him and it looks like he is beginning to do at Ferrari what Schumi is at Brawn-Illmor.

I enjoyed this grand prix :-]

SGWilko

9th May 2010, 19:23

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 19:24

It wasn't a tire failure. Why not try to get some first hand info before posting?
BTW how come that a retired driver passed and beat Jensy today? The more I think the more I come to the conclusion that Flav's curbstone related comments last season were his truest words in F1.

Pernickety!
Then merely swap "tyre" for "wheel" - in fact it priobably occured because Hamilton was abusing it all day.

It is irrelevant anyway because Jense scored points and still just leads the world championship while Hamilton has won nothing so far and is 20 points behind.

And leading the championship in their reigning year is still something nobody has done since Alonso back in 2006.

Great to be a member of Jenson's Barmy Army :D
Sucks to be you :eek:

ioan

9th May 2010, 19:26

Great to be a member of Jenson's Barmy Army :D
Sucks to be you :eek:

Not at all, my fave gave a nice lesson to Bunsy today so I am more than happy. :p

Daniel

9th May 2010, 19:27

Are you actually suggesting that Lewis deliberately caused his wheel rim to fail an the penultimate lap?

If so, that's a darn clever achievment.
Well Heinz Harald-Frentzen once said "I fancy a beer"

Therefore Lewis is too hard on his car.

Jenson is great BTW.

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 19:27

Are you actually suggesting that Lewis deliberately caused his wheel rim to fail an the penultimate lap?

If so, that's a darn clever achievment.

This needs an explanation?

I am saying that just like fighter pilots - some seem to have more mechanical issues than others.

Hamilton is much rougher on the equipment as a driver and so it breaks.

Jense rocks :D

SGWilko

9th May 2010, 19:32

This needs an explanation?

I am saying that just like fighter pilots - some seem to have more mechanical issues than others.

Hamilton is much rougher on the equipment as a driver and so it breaks.

Jense rocks :D

Strewth - I'd hate to suffer rim failure in combat. Not sure the analogy is particularly apt.

If a failure is caused by debris, how is that the driver's fault due to his driving style?

Dave B

9th May 2010, 19:33

Remember though that some posters on here know more than Bridgestone engineers about tyre management. :rolleyes:

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 19:34

Not at all, my fave gave a nice lesson to Bunsy today so I am more than happy. :p

Forgot that you are a Schumi supporter. Beating Jenson is THAT important to you? Well I am not surprised.

Yes, he did give Jenson a lesson today. No disgrace in that, he is after all Michael not Ralf!

I hope Jenson learnt it well. In fact ALL the drivers had better take note of the lessons that Schumi gave Hamilton in China and Jenson in Catalunya.

Problem is we have no idea how far Schumacher will go. Is he prepared to use dirty tactics such as in his first career and risk disgrace again, and probably be banned from the sport? Or is he going to temper himself? This is 2010 not Damon Hill 1995 or Jacques Vlleneuve 1997.

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 19:35

Remember though that some posters on here know more than Bridgestone engineers about tyre management. :rolleyes:

Well clearly the Bridgestone folks got it wrong during the 2010 testing phase, as Jenson has won two races whilst Hamilton HAS had tyre issues.

Told you they were wrong :D

SGWilko

9th May 2010, 19:37

Forgot that you are a Schumi supporter. Beating Jenson is THAT important to you? Well I am not surprised.

Yes, he did give Jenson a lesson today. No disgrace in that, he is after all Michael not Ralf!

I hope Jenson learnt it well. In fact ALL the drivers had better take note of the lessons that Schumi gave Hamilton in China and Jenson in Catalunya.

Problem is we have no idea how far Schumacher will go. Is he prepared to use dirty tactics such as in his first career and risk disgrace again, and probably be banned from the sport? Or is he going to temper himself? This is 2010 not Damon Hill 1995 or Jacques Vlleneuve 1997.

The Shoe keeps a guy behind by making his car wider than Bella Emberg, and you compare this (incorrectly) to the Hill incident in '94 or the JB manoeuvre in '97.

I will admit Shoe's defending made him extra slow today, but he kept the WDC behind when Lewis and others got by the previous race....

SGWilko

9th May 2010, 19:40

Well clearly the Bridgestone folks got it wrong during the 2010 testing phase, as Jenson has won two races whilst Hamilton HAS had tyre issues.

Told you they were wrong :D

JB has been fortunate in that when he was leading, he could dictate the pace and thus manage the tyres. Lewis OTOH has been on the back foot, and yes, while on accasion he overdrove, he made the races exciting as a result, making many passing manoeuvres as a result, and scoring useful points as a result.

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 19:43

Strewth - I'd hate to suffer rim failure in combat. Not sure the analogy is particularly apt.

If a failure is caused by debris, how is that the driver's fault due to his driving style?

Its like when Jackie Stewart won at Clemond Ferrand on a track littered with stones and Amon had a puncture whilst leading. Not his fault was it? Damn stones on the track!

Some fighter pilots have hairline crack issues with their wings when doing sharp turns over time before they should, others can do more turns yet never have that sort of failure.

Hamilton, tends to have issues. And these days there are no fuel stops to change wheels all the time.

It is not accidental that Jense had won two grands prix this year and scored points in the others to lead the championship - now JUST however.

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 19:47

JB has been fortunate in that when he was leading, he could dictate the pace and thus manage the tyres. Lewis OTOH has been on the back foot, and yes, while on accasion he overdrove, he made the races exciting as a result, making many passing manoeuvres as a result, and scoring useful points as a result.

When a driver of Hamilton's calibre makes the racing exciting and/or overdrives - as you put it - its because he has made errors.

Great article on Rick Mears in last weeks Autosport - Hamilton should read it.

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 19:50

Rim failure due to driving style? I'll have to remember that one.. :laugh:
DFTT. ;)

Not driving style - abuse through banging over the curbs and being rough with the equipment. Good thing Lewis never had to race for Colin Chapman - he did not take kindly to drivers that destroyed their equipment.

Come to think of it, Enszo Ferrari used to get rid of drivers that had "those" mechanical issues.

SGWilko

9th May 2010, 19:52

Its like when Jackie Stewart won at Clemond Ferrand on a track littered with stones and Amon had a puncture whilst leading. Not his fault was it? Damn stones on the track! That's bad luck, not due to driving style...

Some fighter pilots have hairline crack issues with their wings when doing sharp turns over time before they should, others can do more turns yet never have that sort of failure.

????

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 19:52

The Shoe keeps a guy behind by making his car wider than Bella Emberg, and you compare this (incorrectly) to the Hill incident in '94 or the JB manoeuvre in '97.

I will admit Shoe's defending made him extra slow today, but he kept the WDC behind when Lewis and others got by the previous race....

I did not say that - YOU say that. I recommend reading my message again. I realize English is not my first language [my first language is bit older than English] but it is not THAT bad!

SGWilko

9th May 2010, 19:54

Not driving style - abuse through banging over the curbs and being rough with the equipment. Good thing Lewis never had to race for Colin Chapman - he did not take kindly to drivers that destroyed their equipment.

Come to think of it, Enszo Ferrari used to get rid of drivers that had "those" mechanical issues.

Was Lewis banging over the curbs today?

9th May 2010, 19:54

And leading the championship in their reigning year is still something nobody has done since Alonso back in 2006.

Actually, Raikkonen led the championship in 2008 after the Spanish GP.

Didn't do him any good at the end of the season, though.

SGWilko

9th May 2010, 19:56

Actually, Raikkonen led the championship in 2008 after the Spanish GP.

Didn't do him any good at the end of the season, though.

Didn't do his bank balance any harm mind.......

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 19:57

So basically you'll willing to ignore the cold hard FACTS to make a driver look bad and make Jenson look like the bestest? :rotflmao:

Jenson IS the best :s mokin:

He won the world title last year, has won more races than anyone else this year so far - and in very difficult conditions - and still leads the championship.

Thats being the best auld chappe!

Saint Devote

9th May 2010, 20:02

Actually, Raikkonen led the championship in 2008 after the Spanish GP.

Didn't do him any good at the end of the season, though.

Thats true but I dont think about the end of season at this point and 2007 has nothing to do with 2010.

I am not a championship is the most important thing kind of supporter - its too abstract.

If I could choose - I would rather have my favorite driver win many grands prix than the title. If the title comes along then thats great of course.

Daniel

9th May 2010, 20:48

Even Mclaren don't know what caused the failure yet and you are claiming its due to 'banging the curbs'? I seem to remember Heikki having a similar failure at Catalunya and he is well known for his smooth style, so on what basis do you make this claim?

Also, how has the historical content of your post got even a dust size molecule of relation to todays events? :confused:

My jaw and rib muscles are getting increasingly weaker with every one of your posts. :eek:
The streets will run red with the blood of Lewis, Red Bull drivers, Ferrari drivers and Michael Schumacher.

All hail Jense

Lalalalalalalalalalalala *fires gun into the air*

Some classic Saint Devote moments :)
s27Oq5ot0ZI

ioan

9th May 2010, 21:22

Forgot that you are a Schumi supporter. Beating Jenson is THAT important to you? Well I am not surprised.

It's always important to have your favorite driver(s) beat the reigning WDC.

BDunnell

9th May 2010, 21:24

Jenson IS the best :s mokin:

He won the world title last year, has won more races than anyone else this year so far - and in very difficult conditions - and still leads the championship.

Thats being the best auld chappe!

Yawn.

ioan

9th May 2010, 21:26

JB has been fortunate in that when he was leading, he could dictate the pace and thus manage the tyres. Lewis OTOH has been on the back foot, and yes, while on accasion he overdrove, he made the races exciting as a result, making many passing manoeuvres as a result, and scoring useful points as a result.

Well someone has to do the racing for McLaren too, if the team are expecting Bunsen to actually race then they are done for good.

ioan

9th May 2010, 21:28

BTW why did Daniel get banned? I didn't see anything over the top posted today.

BDunnell

9th May 2010, 21:29

The streets will run red with the blood of Lewis, Red Bull drivers, Ferrari drivers and Michael Schumacher.

All hail Jense

Lalalalalalalalalalalala *fires gun into the air*

Glad it's not only me who finds the constant sniping war regarding 'favourite' drivers (such a juvenile concept when it's written down) utterly tiresome.

BDunnell

9th May 2010, 21:30

BTW why did Daniel get banned? I didn't see anything over the top posted today.

Nor me, but a draconian measure wouldn't surprise me.

ioan

9th May 2010, 21:32

Nor me, but a draconian measure wouldn't surprise me.

Nothing new then. :\
I would have expected someone else to be at the receiving end though.

Robinho

9th May 2010, 21:35

from a slightly more balanced Jenson supporters view, i think Lewis had him well covered for pace today.

whilst Lewis was lucky that Vettel had a problem in his stop, Button had a problem and lost a place, although he arguably should have held the position against MS, and certainly had a very good chance to pass.

However, MS is a very tricky man to pass, and Catalunya a tricky place to pass at, so no great disgrace. However if he had made it past, he likely would have capitalised on Vettels problem as he was with Alonso up to the 1st stop.

All in a half decent result for Jenson, Lewis had a much better drive and suffered a very unlucky failure. i saw nothing to suggest he was driving roughly, banging kerbs or hitting other drivers, he was quick and unlucky today.

Michael defended brilliantly, far more than many drivers who drift halfway across the track, he made a decisive move and blocked off the inside line in the only overtaking point.

however it was Webbers race today, he was in a class of one.

Robinho

9th May 2010, 21:36

i had a much better fight with Daniel after China and neither of us got banned, he must have said something brilliant today that was quickly deleted.

Baniel is back!

BDunnell

9th May 2010, 21:54

Nothing new then. :\
I would have expected someone else to be at the receiving end though.

Me too.

Tazio

9th May 2010, 22:08

Let's see here Button started p5 finnished p5 with "The Boss" retiring.
A solid drive by JB. However I can't help but believe his teamate would have dispatched Mike in short order.
Meanwhile Fred keeps collecting points clearly out performing his teamate.
and if "The Scuds" find a little more downforce buy Turkey he will be looking pretty sharp!

Hail Caesar

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20061029elpepudep_3/XLCO/Ies/Fernando_Alonso_recibe_calor_Oviedo.jpg

Saint Devote

10th May 2010, 01:53

Saint Devote

10th May 2010, 02:01

It's always important to have your favorite driver(s) beat the reigning WDC.

It is more important to beat Schumi. His car is better but not quite there yet. I love wacthing him drive.

If the straight was longer then Jense would probably have been able to pass him. He was quicker. If China had not had the long straight, then Lewis too I believe would not have made it past.

As it was, it took Hamilton five laps in a far better car and Schumi defending had him really crossed up at the hairpin.

But I enjoyed the contest with Jenson and it was my second most favorite part of the grand prix. The first was seeing Hamilton go out of the race.

Saint Devote

10th May 2010, 02:15

It wasn't a tire failure. Why not try to get some first hand info before posting?
BTW how come that a retired driver passed and beat Jensy today? The more I think the more I come to the conclusion that Flav's curbstone related comments last season were his truest words in F1.

You know darn well that Schumi at this stage is better than 90% of drivers can ever be at the HEIGHT of their careers :dozey:

But Jenson's pit stop was two seconds slower than that of Schumi's and just missed getting out in front of him.

Schumi beat Jenson today because he is the best defensive driver in f1. If the Mclaren had had a real advantage as in China when Lewis overtook him after five laps, there was very little likelihood - but Jenson DID make excellent attempts.

The only other driver I have seen defend in the style of Schumacher is Kubica.

Schumi compared to Hamilton's behavior on Petrov a few weeks ago was stark.

Saint Devote

10th May 2010, 02:30

What did you expect Daniel? :p
I sense a rather worried Button fan who has realised just how much faster Lewis is than Jenson.

Of course I am concerned - who wouldnt be. Just look what Lewis did to Alonso - almost gave him a nervous breakdown. Jenson however is made of much sterner stuff.

But worried? No. This is the Witmarsh managed Mclaren team, not Ron Dennis.

Jenson and Lewis are equally matched and they can - and they have - beaten each other.

The next race is Monte Carlo and I think Jense will have the advantage.

Tazio

10th May 2010, 03:31

You know darn well that Schumi at this stage is better than 90% of drivers can ever be at the HEIGHT of their careers :dozey:

But Jenson's pit stop was two seconds slower than that of Schumi's and just missed getting out in front of him.

Schumi beat Jenson today because he is the best defensive driver in f1. If the Mclaren had had a real advantage as in China when Lewis overtook him after five laps, there was very little likelihood - but Jenson DID make excellent attempts.

The only other driver I have seen defend in the style of Schumacher is Kubica.

Schumi compared to Hamilton's behavior on Petrov a few weeks ago was stark.

SD are you forgetting the way Fred tail gunned the puss out of a hell bent for leather Hamilton in OZ.
Easily the best defense of the season. Ferrari should have just let Fred past Massa as he was obviously way faster at that point in the race.
Fred unselfishly gave away 3 points there, and a shot at passing Kubinski for 3 more!

Tazio

10th May 2010, 03:44

Valve Bounce

10th May 2010, 04:01

Schumacher still at least a second per lap slower than Vettel or Alonso ahead of him, and we were denied the chance to see what Nico could have done in a more normal race. It's strange that Button couldn't pass MS though, in what was clearly a quicker car.

Not a classic race by any means, what little drama there was came from failures and mistakes rather than out-and-out racing.

I think your post addresses the reason why SchM is slower than Vettel and Alonso, not to mention Hamilton: their cars are faster than his, as you state that Bunsen's car was clearly faster. But SchM drove a great defensive race to keep the Bunsen behind, don't you think?

The question remains as to why the McLaren is so much faster than the Brawn/Mercedes.

Valve Bounce

10th May 2010, 04:05

But I enjoyed the contest with Jenson and it was my second most favorite part of the grand prix. The first was seeing Hamilton go out of the race.

That is a very strange thing to say, especially for someone who professes to have watched and loved Grand Prix racing for such a long, long time, and Lewis Hamilton crashed into the tyre barriers.

airshifter

10th May 2010, 05:13

That is a very strange thing to say, especially for someone who professes to have watched and loved Grand Prix racing for such a long, long time, and Lewis Hamilton crashed into the tyre barriers.

Even stranger when said person claims that others should never delight in the failure or misfortune of another driver. After all, such posters are "detractors" and "bashers"!

Kind of a "blah" race for me today. Not much real on track action to speak of. Most of the excitement was caused by mechanical or pit issues.

I am curious about the pace of the Mercedes with the changes, and have to wonder if the claimed changes towards MS's style are really true. Though Rosberg was obviously outperformed by the multi world champ today, MS has a very strong history in Spain, and has often done very well in cars not at the very top of the heap. I suspect his experience at Monaco will further skew the car changes towards seeming to be in his favor.

Ari

10th May 2010, 06:03

zdfdsfs

SGWilko

10th May 2010, 10:05

Vettel had a problem in his stop, .

Given the perceived advantage of the Red Bull, Vettel should have opened a bigger gap to negate these errors that can and DO happen.

While he saved a potential own goal today, Vettel needed to do more in the early stages to cement his position.

N.B. - does anyone know if the issue at the stop had a knock on cause/effect to his ulimate problem in the latter stages of the race?

ArrowsFA1

10th May 2010, 10:09

Vettel needed to do more in the early stages to cement his position.
Had Vettel got the lead then we would have seen a different race from him. He does seem to get a bit grumpy when things aren't quite going his way and it's reflected in his driving, and his post-race interviews IMHO.

Maybe that's the sign of a winner, or maybe it's just someone being grumpy!

ArrowsFA1

10th May 2010, 10:49

I think Ferrari will be asking questions about their pace as they were clearly the third fastest team on Sunday.
They're certainly asking questions about Massa:

Ferrari are to launch an investigation into Felipe Massa's performance following his continuing struggles alongside team-mate Fernando Alonso.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8671392.stm

Valve Bounce

10th May 2010, 10:56

Given the perceived advantage of the Red Bull, Vettel should have opened a bigger gap to negate these errors that can and DO happen.

While he saved a potential own goal today, Vettel needed to do more in the early stages to cement his position.

N.B. - does anyone know if the issue at the stop had a knock on cause/effect to his ulimate problem in the latter stages of the race?

Maybe running over those bumps didn't help.

ShiftingGears

10th May 2010, 11:04

Button got smashed by Lewis and it was pretty poor form to critisise Schumacher passing him. Button's problem, besides not being fast enough, was not being decisive enough in passing Schumacher.

truefan72

10th May 2010, 11:09

I thought you were a person who professed to take pleasure seeing the "Mighty Mclaren" clinch the WCC this year? You've also shown your displeasure at others wishing misfortune on other drivers and accused them of not being fans in the same breath. The fact of the matter is you support Button as a single entity and do not support the team he drives for. Your post is bookmarked for the next time you give a "mighty Mclaren" speech.. Poor form.. :rolleyes:

agreed.

and that is why he is in my ignore list

It was tough to watch Hamilton fall out with 2 laps to go. He would have been in 2nd place in the WDC behind Button and the Macs would have increased their WCC standing as well. Alas it was not to be. It took me a while to get over this misfortune and I did not want to come on the forum earlier to deal with all the nonsense and hateration. Oh well, at least Monaco is only a few days away and an opportunity to put this chapter behind us

on topic, I think Ferrari will be asking questions about their pace as they were clearly the third fastest team on Sunday. Red Bull are clearly ahead in terms of pace but unreliability is still a concern no doubt, and at this stage the other teams can only hope to get close through RB's misfortune. We're still only a quarter of the way through the season I suppose, and hopefully Mclaren can bridge that gap and maintain solid points finishes for both drivers.. :)

I am not sure why Ferrari are panicking over massa. I think he is exactly the same driver he has always been. Which always made it a curious decision to get rid of Kimi instead of him. This year the competition is much tighter and when asked to battle it out, his deficiencies become more evident. All that being said. Ferrari would be wise to not do anything until the latter part of the season.

ShiftingGears

10th May 2010, 11:10

Not driving style - abuse through banging over the curbs and being rough with the equipment.

Why don't you wait until McLaren diagnose what went wrong rather than giving your opinion based on no facts - much like how you thought that you knew more about Jenson's tyre wear than Bridgestone engineers :laugh:

Mia 01

10th May 2010, 11:14

Why don't you wait until McLaren diagnose what went wrong rather than giving your opinion based on no facts - much like how you thought that you knew more about Jenson's tyre wear than Bridgestone engineers :laugh:

It was a tyre blow out.

All thoose fastest laps. Lewis you will make it to the finish in Monaco.
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=48370

Saint Devote

10th May 2010, 11:35

Why don't you wait until McLaren diagnose what went wrong rather than giving your opinion based on no facts - much like how you thought that you knew more about Jenson's tyre wear than Bridgestone engineers :laugh:

You are confused - those were my comments about Lewis: either banging over the curbs and not avoiding stones around the curbs. Very Lewis tyoe of driving.

Saint Devote

10th May 2010, 11:41

Button got smashed by Lewis and it was pretty poor form to critisise Schumacher passing him. Button's problem, besides not being fast enough, was not being decisive enough in passing Schumacher.

Jenson tends to turn in early into a corner but Schumi turned in even earlier defending and gave no room. I prefer Jense to drive with his mind as he always does than make any move based on emotionalism.

Jenson's pitstop was TWOP seconds slower than that of Schumi and this resulted in being stuck behind.

Had he not had the situation and had been able to overtake or keep ahead of Schumi following his pitstop then likely he would have caught Vettel at least.

There was nothng wrong with Jenson's driving. He is driving as well as when he won the two grands prix this year.

ShiftingGears

10th May 2010, 11:46

You are confused - those were my comments about Lewis: either banging over the curbs and not avoiding stones around the curbs. Very Lewis tyoe of driving.

By the same token does this mean you are going to concede that Button is rough on his tyres because he wore them out while Hamilton did not?

Saint Devote

10th May 2010, 11:46

I thought you were a person who professed to take pleasure seeing the "Mighty Mclaren" clinch the WCC this year? You've also shown your displeasure at others wishing misfortune on other drivers and accused them of not being fans in the same breath. The fact of the matter is you support Button as a single entity and do not support the team he drives for. Your post is bookmarked for the next time you give a "mighty Mclaren" speech.. Poor form.. :rolleyes:

Back on topic, I think Ferrari will be asking questions about their pace as they were clearly the third fastest team on Sunday. Red Bull are clearly ahead in terms of pace but unreliability is still a concern no doubt, and at this stage the other teams can only hope to get close through RB's misfortune. We're still only a quarter of the way through the season I suppose, and hopefully Mclaren can bridge that gap and maintain solid points finishes for both drivers.. :)

I have never supported a team. I support a driver, Jenson. I am pleased that Mclaren will have a great car because of that and write within that context. I also like Whitmarsh because he is different to Dennis and has made the Mclaren team a different entity.

I am pleased when any of Jenson's rivals fail to score points. If you mistakenly thought that I support Mclaren you are incorrect.

ShiftingGears

10th May 2010, 11:50

Jenson tends to turn in early into a corner but Schumi turned in even earlier defending and gave no room. I prefer Jense to drive with his mind as he always does than make any move based on emotionalism.

It has nothing to do with mind vs emotion - Jenson was not decisive enough with Schumacher when it counted, and therefore lost points which could've been quite valuable. That is everything to do with decisive thinking at the wheel. And if his driving style doesn't lend itself to overtaking - well...he shouldn't be complaining when other drivers take full advantage of it.

Saint Devote

10th May 2010, 11:56

He was also far too soft letting Schumacher through. He had track position and he should have made his pressence felt by putting himself in the apex rather than taking the outside line and allowing Schuey to dominate the inside. Hamilton was i a similar situation with Vettel and he showed aggression and dominance to hold the position. Button was caught napping here I'm afraid, and unlike you I took no pleasure in seeing the other Mclaren driver being caught out. It lost the team valuable points and ruined Button's race.

Drivers have to be very careful of Schumacher - he will take them out. Lewis did not score any points because he did not finish the race BECAUSE of the way he drives. Jenson did.

Furthermore, from early in the race Jenson's radio and steering wheel stopped working. He could not communicate and kept on hitting the rev limiter being unable to adjust the car for the various corners.

There was the problems of his clutch dragging as well as the two seconds slower pit stop than Schumi.

Together with the difficulty of overtaking in Catalunya, you expect him to take chances? I disagree.

Not the best result but in the end he scored points and it was the best he could do today.

Saint Devote

10th May 2010, 12:10

SD are you forgetting the way Fred tail gunned the puss out of a hell bent for leather Hamilton in OZ.
Easily the best defense of the season. Ferrari should have just let Fred past Massa as he was obviously way faster at that point in the race.
Fred unselfishly gave away 3 points there, and a shot at passing Kubinski for 3 more!

Thats true. I agree that Alonso should always be given the advantage - he remains the only man on the grid to have whipped Schumacher's ass for the world championship and is still the most complete driver on the grid.

If Ferrari gains Kubica they will have an incredible driver pairing.

As I mentioned a few days ago - if Hamilton is in front of Alonso, I will be "shouting Forza Ferrari"!

SGWilko

10th May 2010, 14:01

I err, well I think its, hmmm.... Don't worry. :eek: :rolleyes:

The caveat needs to be...

...think before you post!

Still, that's a bigger foot in mouth moment than Yorkshire in 2001.......

markabilly

10th May 2010, 14:43

Furthermore, from early in the race Jenson's radio and steering wheel stopped working. He could not communicate and kept on hitting the rev limiter being unable to adjust the car for the various corners.

.
Funny I thought they kept playing radio transmissions to him about go faster and so forth...but you are right that it would be really tough to be driving when the steering wheel don't work, likely to be a problem when it comes to turning

Valve Bounce

10th May 2010, 16:09

Funny I thought they kept playing radio transmissions to him about go faster and so forth...but you are right that it would be really tough to be driving when the steering wheel don't work, likely to be a problem when it comes to turning

I think Bunsen was steering with his "mind". I think some guy called Uri Geller could do that also.

jens

10th May 2010, 19:48

Quite a telling fact about contemporary F1. The only thing that makes a race more interesting, is that if someone has a botched pitstop and drops behind a slower car as a result...

It's quite frustrating to see, how Vettel keeps suffering from setbacks in almost every race. The main consolation might be that despite all this he has somehow been creeping over the line to collect points. But to go through all season by limping and gifting points would be rather underwhelming... Also Vettel hasn't really had a special spark at Barcelona so far. In 2008 he was outqualified by Bourdais, last year finished behind Webber, although Massa's KERS played part in that outcome.

Kubica v Kobayashi looked like a racing incident, like Kubica v Sutil in Bahrain. This may have cost Sauber their first points of the season as well. It's also fun to follow Alguersuari's consistent progress. He looks quite good in wheel-to-wheel racing (starts, passing, we have seen those before too), although rookie errors come in at times (driving into Chandhok).

F1boat

10th May 2010, 22:40

It's quite frustrating to see, how Vettel keeps suffering from setbacks in almost every race. .

We have to say that Alonso, Lewis, Hamilton, Michael, Mark also had many problems... that's why the season is so interesting.

Saint Devote

11th May 2010, 04:02

Funny I thought they kept playing radio transmissions to him about go faster and so forth...but you are right that it would be really tough to be driving when the steering wheel don't work, likely to be a problem when it comes to turning

It seems you have nothing better to say than make up utter rubbish.

Saint Devote

11th May 2010, 04:14

Quite a telling fact about contemporary F1. The only thing that makes a race more interesting, is that if someone has a botched pitstop and drops behind a slower car as a result...

It's quite frustrating to see, how Vettel keeps suffering from setbacks in almost every race. The main consolation might be that despite all this he has somehow been creeping over the line to collect points. But to go through all season by limping and gifting points would be rather underwhelming... Also Vettel hasn't really had a special spark at Barcelona so far. In 2008 he was outqualified by Bourdais, last year finished behind Webber, although Massa's KERS played part in that outcome.

As a supporter of Jenson I have no sympathy for Vettel. Since he came into F1 he has had a smooth entry essentially straight into a top team. All he has ever had to do was drive.

I can assure you, that being a supporter of a driver that, was always capable of becoming champion but had funding problems, dislocating his career into being ultimately stuck for YEARS in rubbish cars, is far more frustrating.

So Vettel has problems - eventually he will drive better, become more experienced and maybe win the title - and its still early in the season so with the RB6, despite his strategically challenged pitwall "advisers", he can still do it in 2010.

Valve Bounce

11th May 2010, 04:33

It seems you have nothing better to say than make up utter rubbish.

Funny!! I thought that's what you said. I agree that utter rubbish best describes it. :D

Garry Walker

11th May 2010, 07:47

Drivers have to be very careful of Schumacher - he will take them out. Lewis did not score any points because he did not finish the race BECAUSE of the way he drives. Jenson did.

Furthermore, from early in the race Jenson's radio and steering wheel stopped working. He could not communicate and kept on hitting the rev limiter being unable to adjust the car for the various corners.

There was the problems of his clutch dragging as well as the two seconds slower pit stop than Schumi.

Together with the difficulty of overtaking in Catalunya, you expect him to take chances? I disagree.

Not the best result but in the end he scored points and it was the best he could do today.

Lets get facts straight.
What stopped working for button was his dashboard. No biggie. His radio never stopped working and his clutch only affected him during his pitstop.
The way he let Schumacher through, whilst very enjoyable to watch, was also very sad to watch.
You have also forgot to say how Button admitted he damaged his tyres.

F1boat

11th May 2010, 08:13

The way he let Schumacher through, whilst very enjoyable to watch, was also very sad to watch.

He was surprised, that's it. It happens. It's not that different to the battle between Lewis and Seb.

Daika

11th May 2010, 10:32

SGWilko

11th May 2010, 11:05

http://www.planetf1.com/news/18227/6146697/Vettel-The-team-told-me-to-retire

Vettel should have retired, no point in playing with your life. It al worked out in the end but the team should be firm. WTF not answering Vettel's question when such a risky potential fatal accident could happen. Like calling a hospital for help and the hosptital says figure out yourself.

I think that is a bit OTT. DId he have no brakes period, or just no brakes on the front right?

He did make it back AND salvaged some decent points, he was very clearly engine braking WAY befor the corners to shed a LOT of speed.

That is the hallmark of a good river, not many laps left, so limp to the end in hope of points - it paid off.

Valve Bounce

11th May 2010, 11:06

I was surprised to hear that comment from Button post race after all the hype about how easy he is on his tyres.

:)

Perhaps this just shows that he tried really hard to get by SchM, and in doing so, he wore his tyres excessively by repeatedly following too close and losing downforce. I'll give him this : at least he tried repeatedly.

SGWilko

11th May 2010, 11:06

I was surprised to hear that comment from Button post race after all the hype about how easy he is on his tyres.

The only difference is the fact Lewis read the situation better and blocked the pass by Seb. He put his car in a position where Seb could not pass on the inside, which was his right as he had track position. Button was caught napping and no doubt was kicking himself all race. Its no big deal and I'm not having a go at Button, but the last race reminded me alot of his races pre 2009. With Lewis going out of the race in such an unlucky fashion, I would have liked to have seen Button finish abit further up the field to bring home valuable constructors points for the team.. :)

I hate to think what I would have done in Buttons position....

Mess my undies probably!!! :laugh:

SGWilko

11th May 2010, 11:08

Perhaps this just shows that he tried really hard to get by SchM, and in doing so, he wore his tyres excessively by repeatedly following too close and losing downforce. I'll give him this : at least he tried repeatedly.

Indeed. I made a comment to the Trouble & Strife about EJ's comment on not keep trying at the same place...

I mean, c'mon eddie, that is really the ONLY place to make a move stick.......

AndyL

11th May 2010, 11:34

I was surprised to hear that comment from Button post race after all the hype about how easy he is on his tyres.

Really? Given how long he spent in the turbulent air under the rear wing of Schumacher's car, surely it was inevitable that the tyres would get badly worn. I was surprised he didn't have more serious problems before the end of the race.

Edit: sorry just spotted VB has already said pretty much the same thing.

jens

11th May 2010, 11:42

http://www.planetf1.com/news/18227/6146697/Vettel-The-team-told-me-to-retire

Vettel should have retired, no point in playing with your life.

I disagree. In order to win the championship, you need to take risks. No point? What's the point of motor racing at all then - it is bound to be at least a bit dangerous. As they say - the championships are won based on how much you can salvage from bad days. And Vettel in that car knew better than anyone else, what he was risking with. He knew, how did it feel like driving without brakes and managed to adapt to the situation efficiently. Like Schumacher at Barcelona in '94 driving with one gear. At Spa '09 Barrichello decided to finish the race, despite filling the circuit with oil during the last two laps and making it potentially dangerous. He also tried it at Indy'01, but the car didn't last long enough. It's also worth remembering Räikkönen at Nürburgring '05 - maybe someone would have said that he should have pitted, but he decided to try and keep the race lead in order to keep championship hopes alive. It's in the competitive nature of sportsmen to try to take the maximum of each circumstance and never give up. I appreciate them for that as long as they are within the rules. If Vettel had retired and would go on to lose the WDC by less than 15 points, he wouldn't forgive it to himself. If I had only a handful of laps to go, I wouldn't care nor even think about retiring and would try my best to somehow creep over the finish line as long as the car was drivable at fast enough pace to get a decent position.

Daika

11th May 2010, 12:00

I disagree. In order to win the championship, you need to take risks. No point? What's the point of motor racing at all then - it is bound to be at least a bit dangerous. As they say - the championships are won based on how much you can salvage from bad days. And Vettel in that car knew better than anyone else, what he was risking with. He knew, how did it feel like driving without brakes and managed to adapt to the situation efficiently. Like Schumacher at Barcelona in '94 driving with one gear. At Spa '09 Barrichello decided to finish the race, despite filling the circuit with oil during the last two laps and making it potentially dangerous. He also tried it at Indy'01, but the car didn't last long enough. It's also worth remembering Räikkönen at Nürburgring '05 - maybe someone would have said that he should have pitted, but he decided to try and keep the race lead in order to keep championship hopes alive. It's in the competitive nature of sportsmen to try to take the maximum of each circumstance and never give up. I appreciate them for that as long as they are within the rules. If Vettel had retired and would go on to lose the WDC by less than 15 points, he wouldn't forgive it to himself. If I had only a handful of laps to go, I wouldn't care nor even think about retiring and would try my best to somehow creep over the finish line as long as the car was drivable at fast enough pace to get a decent position.

The team told him to retire and then stay silent when Vettel ask for confirmation. That is my biggest complaint. For Vettel to continiue is only natural. Wheter that is wise i disagree. No point in playing with your life for points. No or very bad brakes in my view is taken more risks than usual.

Valve Bounce

11th May 2010, 12:04

Really? Given how long he spent in the turbulent air under the rear wing of Schumacher's car, surely it was inevitable that the tyres would get badly worn. I was surprised he didn't have more serious problems before the end of the race.

Edit: sorry just spotted VB has already said pretty much the same thing.

Couldn't help myself. I foresaw what you were going to say, and jumped in first. :p :

jens

11th May 2010, 12:05

The team told him to retire and then stay silent when Vettel ask for confirmation. That is my biggest complaint. For Vettel to continiue is only natural. Wheter that is wise i disagree. No point in playing with your life for points. No or very bad brakes in my view is taken more risks usual.

The team may have told him, but they didn't feel, how was it like to drive the car. They looked at telemetry and thought "well, it looks bad". Vettel was in the car and felt that is it possible to get to the finish with such brakes and engine braking. After all, for an outsider situations look more dangerous, because it's outside their control and as a result it looks horrifying. Who is directly dealing with the situation, has less worry.

By the way, Vettel isn't the first driver to finish the race with malfunctioning brakes, actually it is a more common behaviour than it may seem. I vaguely remember Kimi in France '03 and Fisi in Germany '05 doing the same. Also recall Singapore '09 - the brakes of the Brawns were literally smoking.

Valve Bounce

11th May 2010, 12:08

I can understand fully why his tyres were in the condition they were in but over the weeks we've had comparisons between Jenson and Lewis regarding driving styles. Jenson has the reputation of being easy on his tyres where Lewis does not. I can appreciate there is a difference but not to the degree that Button's fans like to brag. Both destroyed their tyres in the early part of Oz and when Lewis spent many laps fighting off Petrov and trying to get past Sutil in Malaysia, he ruined his tyres in a similar fashion. The comparison was made forgetting the two totally different situations with one driver in clean air and the other fighting in the pack and this was used to confirm Button had the easier style.

Mclaren have stated that the two styles are very different, but when you compare tyre wear, there's hardly anything in it. I think Lewis has altered his style this season as a matter of need, because of the amount of laps drivers are now expected to travel on one set. He completed over 50 laps of Catalunya before his exit and the evidence points towards Lewis's tyres being in very good condition despite his Rim failure. I was simply poking abit of fun at the irony.. :)

Are you calling me "The Irony" :p :

Daika

11th May 2010, 12:14

The team may have told him, but they didn't feel, how was it like to drive the car. They looked at telemetry and thought "well, it looks bad". Vettel was in the car and felt that is it possible to get to the finish with such brakes and engine braking. After all, for an outsider situations look more dangerous, because it's outside their control and as a result it looks horrifying. Who is directly dealing with the situation, has less worry.

By the way, Vettel isn't the first driver to finish the race with malfunctioning brakes. I vaguely remember Kimi in France '03 and Fisi in Germany '05 doing the same. Also recall Singapore '09 - the brakes of the Brawns were literally smoking.

That is a fair point about not knowning how the car behaves. Let's assume something happends (Vettel's big accident). Whose responsible? The team or the driver? The media/FIA/ the judge would not act kindly upon the team. I think in this kind of situation you should always listen to the team otherwise it could get very messy.