Rubens on pair with Jenson

[Mia 01]

Last season Rubens hunted Jenson right to the finish of the WDC. Rubens was a real threat to Jenson in many races.

So far this season its the same with Lewis. It seems the history repeat itself.

Is it also time to revalue Alonso?

[Robinho]

Rubens was close to Jenson, and previously close to Schumacher on occasions.

Jenson is close to Lewis, and leading him in the title chase so far.

Lewis equalled Alonso in his 1st year, and beat Massa to the title in his 2nd.

Massa equalled Kimi often and is now looking slower than Alonso.

Alonso beat Schumacher to 2 titles.

Schumacher won 7 titles, but is slower than Rosberg, who was beaten by Webber, who is being whipped by Vettel, who lost the title to Jenson.

from that i conclude.....F*** all, other than all the top drivers are just that, top drivers, and on their day are equal to anyone. he who puts together the most performances at their best tends to show up at the top in any given season.

[UltimateDanGTR]

the above, really.

[fandango]

Well, what looks to be the great thing about this season is that no-one will be defending a big lead in the second half of the season. It has happened many times this decade where a driver who's leading spends the second half of the season fending off rivals.

This year it's different, so I think the champion will be the one who is mentally strongest of the top bunch, the one who can find that extra fraction without losing everything.

At the moment I see that order as Alonso, Button, Hamilton, Massa, Vettel, Schumacher, Webber.

[keysersoze]

At the moment I see that order as Alonso, Button, Hamilton, Massa, Vettel, Schumacher, Webber.

I can't agree with including MS but not Rosberg.

[fandango]

I can't agree with including MS but not Rosberg.

As SOON as I pressed Submit I knew someone would say that. The list is personal, and I'm not convinced about Nico. The "I was wrong" may well be visited this season....

[Saint Devote]

Lewis equalled Alonso in his 1st year, and beat Massa to the title in his 2nd.

This is the danger of "pointed facts".

Did Hamilton win the title or did Massa lose it?

Massa won more grands prix than Hamilton in 2008. He made less mistakes and it was the failure of his team that caused his title loss - the apology by Ferrari to Massa.

And Hamilton, for all the idiotic hysteria surrounding him - not his fault - made extremely heavy weather winning that title.

Lewis did not beat Alonso in 2007, Mclaren mismanaged whole situation and the team quickly isolated Alonso well before the season ended. Ron Dennis had struck again.

Hamilton and Alonso ended in the same position in the championship.

And the start of 2010, with still a long way to go establishes well that Hamilton is human after all - but then he never claimed otherwise.

It was the Hamilton accolytes which included many motor racing "names" that claimed him to be the "best ever" and so on.

Rubens is a very good driver and has always pushed his teammates including Schumacher.

But it is only certain drivers that engineer themselves to become world champions. And above those are the ones that can do it again and even higher are those who are capable of doing it consecutively, like Alonso and Schumacher.

Rubens is not one any one of them - in the end he did not even finish second in the championship.

[Mia 01]

What I meant was that we now have an excellent opportunity to revalue Lewis and Rubens for example, now when we have Jenson as a stick.

But ofcourse, it could also be that teams favour one driver.

[fandango]

If Jenson is a stick, is Lewis a carrot? :)

[HenryM]

IMO the car and the moment have a lot to do, drivers performance are not so constant, I mean, look at Schumacher, a big part of the problem is that the car just doesn't suit well his driving style, apart from obviously his age and his 3 years retirement, comparing these drivers is not an easy task, we can compare Barrichello and Button from 2006, from 2008 or 2009 and the result is a bit different I think.

what we saw in 2008 was two very talented drivers who both had their fair share of bad luck

Utter crap of the highest order.

Please name me where and when Hamilton had an engine failure with three laps to go while leading or had his pit-crew feck up and leave the fuel-rig attached?

What bad luck Hamilton had was self inflicted.

Come on, Mr "Facts"....either you can prove without doubt Hamilton had as much bad luck as Massa or you are once more lying.


but the one did the job better than the other when it came down to it.

Utter crap that only a Hamilton fanboy, who wouldn't know a fact if it smacked him full in the face, would spout.

[i_max2k2]

Utter crap of the highest order.

Please name me where and when Hamilton had an engine failure with three laps to go while leading or had his pit-crew feck up and leave the fuel-rig attached?

What bad luck Hamilton had was self inflicted.

Come on, Mr "Facts"....either you can prove without doubt Hamilton had as much bad luck as Massa or you are once more lying.



Utter crap that only a Hamilton fanboy, who wouldn't know a fact if it smacked him full in the face, would spout.

I totally agree, Massa had a terrible season, he should have won the championship, had he not had bad luck in even one of all those circumstances, heck even in that last lap, or the entire race, Massa drove better than anyone else, he truly deserved that championship win. I truly felt bad for him after the race.

[Saint Devote]

What amuses me about your post is your intent to highlight that Massa won more GP's than Lewis in 2008, but you dismiss the fact Lewis finished on the podium more times than Fernando in 2007. Lewis did finish ahead of Fernando in the championship in 2007, although they ended the season level on points. The fact Lewis had more top 3 finishes, meant he took second place and Fernando third. If Raikkonen had not been in the picture, Lewis would have won the title on this basis, and we couldn't say they both won the WDC, or shared it because they were level on points. It was formed on an aggregate. ;)

Remember when alot of people on here were trying to devalue Jensons WDC last year? This post of yours seems to do exactly what you were so appalled by last season, and we encounted several months of gloating etc etc. A WDC is won by whoever scores the most points, and what we saw in 2008 was two very talented drivers who both had their fair share of bad luck and who were fighting in cars which were in a development race throughout the year. Its the closest season we've had for many years and also the most hard fought in terms of being decided on the last lap of the season. Both deserved the championship that year, but the one did the job better than the other when it came down to it. :)

Dont start that nonsense.

I am not devaluing Hamilton's championship just stating the truth. Massa won MORE grands prix than Hamilton and Jenson won more grands prix than anyone else. Massa LOST that title when Ferrari messed up seriously and everyone knows that.

And if it had been any other driver than Hamilton, the bs from the UK over him would have been even more ridiculous.

More podiums place him higher? When did that bit of bs creep in?
Any driver finishing on the same points finishes equal in the championship, and its ALWAYS been that way.

Alonso and Hamilton won the equal amount of GPs too. It was a good year for precious little Lord Fauntelroy with that obsessive neat freak Ron Dennis dictating things, but then reality gobsmacked him in his face.

Alonso was treated abominably by the Dennis gestapo droids in the team and Mclaren deserved everything they got. It should have been $200 million.

That Whitmarsh is in command is the first time in years that it will actually give its drivers equal consideration and not divide into the viper pit it was under that freakazoid "Ron Dennis".

And come the time that Hamilton and Alonso are battling I WILL be shouting FORZA FERRARI!

[CNR]

jenson a nobody for most of the years at honda beating the (so called) golden child :up:

[Saint Devote]

Thats the official result I'm afraid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Formula_One_season

Fernando Alonso's career record shows he finished the 2007 Formula One World Championship in Third (3rd) place. Although the drivers finished with equal points, the place is then decided by podium finishes. Although they both had the same amount of wins and podium finishes, Hamilton had more second place finishes that Alonso, putting him ahead on this technicality. ;)

I dont care what the "official result" says. I dont like "officials", especially when they are the rear ends from the FIA. The FIA are capricious.

Alonso and Hamilton ended the championship on EQUAL points. How that is gained is not relevant, and only wins are more important.

Another way to put would be Hamilton finished ahead of Alonso more times than Alonso finished ahead of Hamilton.

Indeed, Hamilton was the first of the losers.

No driver worth bothering with is interested in anything other than winning, a fact that goes double for somebody like Hamilton or Fernando, so I doubt very much that Hamilton gives a toss about how he finished second on countback.

Still waiting for the factual evidence that Hamilton had as much bad luck as Felipe in 2008.

I've tried to remember when Hamilton had a mechanical failure or a team failure that wasn't his doing, but haven't remembered it yet.

[ioan]

Still waiting for the factual evidence that Hamilton had as much bad luck as Felipe in 2008.

Don't hold your breath on this one. ;)

My original claim of bad luck didn't carry a definition relating to mechanical failures, that was something you are looking for. Lewis did not have as many mechanical failures as Felipe but he did fall foul as far as stewards decisions are concerned. He wasn't as lucky in that sense. Its all stuff that has been covered to death on this forum. We're not going to agree so whats the point of discussing it? You'll only come back with insults and its not something others wish to read.

I'm not going over the same old ground over and over, and I know its a particular hobby of yours. I'll let you get back to playing with your Ron Dennis dartboard, and finding others to have your petty squabbles with.

Safe.

Thanks for confirming you were lying.

[SGWilko]

Thanks for confirming you were lying.


one more predictable repetitious post, and you will be held in contempt.

one more predictable repetitious post, and you will be held in contempt.

Where you already are. Surrounded by soiled tissues and a BNP manifesto.

[SGWilko]

Where you already are. Surrounded by soiled tissues and a BNP manifesto.

No way Pedro, I flush 'em once I fill 'em.

Mind you, it's been a busy weekend, I've had to break open the Bounty kitchen roll.......

And I voted Fancy Dress this time around sweetness.

[tf109b]

The thread was Jenson and Rubens, it turned into Hamilton and Alonso. We all know a rookie isn't supposed to equal the 2 time defending world champion, at the best team. But that's what happened. And if it weren't for the fiasco at McLaren with Freddy, Hamilton would be 2 time WDC. Fred didn't like the fact a 'black guy' was meeting or exceeding his proud spanish @ss. He snitched on his employer, twice. How do you defend this guy? At least Hamilton did what was told by his employer. The little lie in Melbourne? So what? Trulli went off track and Hamilton passed. But when they raced together, Fred ran Hamilton off track, held him up in the pits AND on track in qualifying, and you defend him? Hamilton is no saint, but to rate Fredo above him is pathetic, especially considering what he did in his <4 short years compared to alonso's <9 years.

[Mia 01]

How good is Lewis compared to others. Forget about Alonso, he was the duck of Ron after Monaco.

[Mia 01]

According to Martin Brundle F1 has 3 megastars...



I'd have to agree. :)


I´m sure you would, and of your pick.

Jenson could prove you wrong this year.

[AndyL]

More podiums place him higher? When did that bit of bs creep in?
Any driver finishing on the same points finishes equal in the championship, and its ALWAYS been that way.

What a surprising comment... surely it has ALWAYS been the case that ties on points are broken by who finished in higher positions more times? F1.com has Peter Whitehead finishing ahead of Louis Chiron in the championship by virtue of having a 7th place finish vs. a 9th - in 1950. Both had 4 points from a single 3rd place finish. In 1982 Pironi took second in the championship by having more 3rd place finishes than John Watson.

[Mia 01]

The picture will get clearer this wekeend and thoose who follows.

I hold my breath.

[V12]

Rubens was close to Jenson, and previously close to Schumacher on occasions.

Jenson is close to Lewis, and leading him in the title chase so far.

Lewis equalled Alonso in his 1st year, and beat Massa to the title in his 2nd.

Massa equalled Kimi often and is now looking slower than Alonso.

Alonso beat Schumacher to 2 titles.

Schumacher won 7 titles, but is slower than Rosberg, who was beaten by Webber, who is being whipped by Vettel, who lost the title to Jenson.

from that i conclude.....F*** all, other than all the top drivers are just that, top drivers, and on their day are equal to anyone. he who puts together the most performances at their best tends to show up at the top in any given season.


Excellent post :laugh:

I remember one article in Autosport, think it was around late 90s/turn of millennium time, where someone was saying that through extrapolation of teammate comparisons (qualifying performances I think) through the years you could thus empirically prove that Horace Gould (1950s privateer who while never an embarrassment was not GP class) was a faster driver than Vittorio Brambilla (who while not top notch could be very quick on his day against the likes of Hunt, Lauda, Regazzoni, Peterson, Depailler, Reutemann, Scheckter, all that lot). The point of this example being to disprove the whole science entirely.

These sort of comparisons often send you in circles, Hill beat Villeneuve in '96, JV beat Frentzen in '97, who had the upper hand over Hill when they were teammates in '99. There's too many variables at play, drivers being past (or not yet at) their peak, how they adapt to different teams, technical regulations, and all sorts.

[Mia 01]

What picture?

:) :)

[jens]

Like has been written in another thread. We have had significant rule changes almost every year, as a result each year puts various drivers into a different light in terms of performance. So we need to be careful about making conclusive arguments. The performances of drivers fluctuate and they do even during the season. Who knows, who will be getting criticized by mid-season. Remember, in 2008 after the opening races Kovalainen actually looked like almost a match to Hamilton!

[Mia 01]

Rubens is as good as Lewis.

It seems so after this days two free practies.

[Mia 01]

Rubens is on pair with Jenson.

[52Paddy]

Rubens is on pair with Jenson.

The word you're looking for is 'par'. To say that he is on par with Jenson is a little ill-founded, though I'd be very interested to hear why you come to such a conclusion. I'm not debating the fact, Rubens has been doing a great job in recent races. But Jenson has been doing as well (or as badly in many respects) as the drivers in with a real shot at the title.