Oval Champion & Road Champion

[Lousada]

IndyCar officials confirmed Monday that the top performers on the two types of tracks -- ovals and road/street circuits -- will be honored. The drivers scoring the most points in each category, regardless of where they finish in the overall standings, will receive a trophy named for a former champion and a cash bonus (amount to be announced later)...
http://www.indystar.com/article/20100427/SPORTS0107/4270338/1004/SPORTS/IndyCar-to-recognize-oval-road-overall-titlists

Opinion?

[DanicaFan]

I could see Danica getting the oval champion this year. :)

[Chris R]

I could see Danica getting the oval champion this year. :)

I have to admire your continued optimism - and at least I can see this as a possibility...

[dataman1]

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100427/SPORTS0107/4270338/1004/SPORTS/IndyCar-to-recognize-oval-road-overall-titlists

Opinion?

Great idea IMO.

[bzcam]

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100427/SPORTS0107/4270338/1004/SPORTS/IndyCar-to-recognize-oval-road-overall-titlists

Opinion?

I have a better idea. Just eliminate the ovals altogether and then there is no need for the dichotomous podium.

In a true auto race, drivers turn left AND right.

BZ

[V12]

Can't see it doing any harm, and might be interesting to see how the two individual tables stack up against the actual standings come the end of the year...

[Alexamateo]

In a true auto race, drivers turn left AND right.

BZ

By your logic then, the only true horse race is a steeplechase, then?

OK Got it! :rolleyes:

[Scotty G.]

I have a better idea. Just eliminate the ovals altogether and then there is no need for the dichotomous podium.

In a true auto race, drivers turn left AND right.

BZ


Or we could just eliminate ridiculous "podiums" and the Euro-centric form of racing/culture that has made most of America yawn and turn the channel (if they even get the channel).

In a true American auto race, drivers turn left. Only in American club racing do they turn right too. ;)

[TURN3]

I could see Danica getting the oval champion this year. :)

LMAO. Perhaps you might still have to beat one of the other top 9 cars and actually win a race. LMAO!!!

[TURN3]

I have a better idea. Just eliminate the ovals altogether and then there is no need for the dichotomous podium.

In a true auto race, drivers turn left AND right.

BZ

? A true auto race doesn't include the Indy 500? Wow, good thing you're not in charge of Indycar.

[SarahFan]

I could see Danica getting the oval champion this year. :)

seriously?

[harvick#1]

welcome to todays PC age, does everyone get a trophy for participating too :rolleyes:

[DanicaFan]

Yes Turn3 and Ken, she can do it. I would take wagers on that. ;)

[slorydn1]

I can see recognizing the exploits of drivers on both types of tracks, as long as only one driver is recognized as the season champion....or 10 years from now we'll have Bob Jenkins making the ridiculous statement that there's a record "12 former champions in the field for this race" or one driver will be a "record 9 time champion" spitting in the face of all the season champions before him.

[TURN3]

Quick tabulation of oval standings from last year:

Dixon 1st, Dario 2nd, Briscoe 3rd, Helio 4th, the "Danica" 5th, Rahal 6th, TK 7th, Wheldon 8th, Ed 9th, Hideki 10th, Marco 11th. 5th through 11th separated by 40 points (or less than a race worth of points). Interesting that each of the drivers from 6th on back had "mechanical" failures in at least 1 race. In particular TK at Indy with the suspension breaking and Graham at Texas. I believe each of the top 11 drivers had at least 1 crash (whether their fault or not) except Dixon, Danica, and Ed. In other words DFan your girl finished a distant 5th yet barely ahead of 5 drivers that didn't finish at least 1 race due to no fault of their own. Drivers 6th thru 11th each did not finish multiple races and still finished within 8 to 40 points of 5th. Make your own analysis.


This year, obviously Rahal and Ed are both out of this particular equeation. I think you automatically put Will in there with the Penske car so 5 of the top positions are taken. I fully expect TK not to have cars catching on fire and snapping in half on him this year so that is 6. You would think RHR will certainly be a consistent challenger for top 5's and the way Marco is driving this year we can assume that his resurgence carries over to the ovals. Questions: how will D&R's oval cars be by comparison to AA, same question for KV with Moraes and Viso. Sato won't fair well consistently on ovals. Predictions everybody!!?

Mine are that Dixon and Franchitti stay at the top because both Briscoe and Helio have a tendency to crash or make mistakes coming out of the pits in Japan ( :) ). I think Will will be the most consistent of the Penske drivers but athough has finished well on ovals still needs to prove something on them, he finishes 6th between TK in 5th and RHR (assuming FT) in 7th. Marco will be 8th with Wilson in 9th. Danica should be 10th considering Conway, Moraes, and Viso will crash as many races as they challenge for top 5's. That is pretty much how it'll happen...book it, I'll take bets!!

[TURN3]

Yes Turn3 and Ken, she can do it. I would take wagers on that. ;)

Think of how much $$ you already admitted you lose to your friends. Have they ever tried an intervention for you?

[UltimateDanGTR]

I have a better idea. Just eliminate the ovals altogether and then there is no need for the dichotomous podium.

In a true auto race, drivers turn left AND right.

BZ

in a true auto race people race in autos against competitors, and In a true auto championship, drivers should come across unique tracks and unique challenges-high speed tracks, slow speed tracks, tight courses, flowing courses, undulating courses, flat courses etc, whether it turn left, right or both.

The indycar series has the best mixture of track challenges of any series IMO, it has everything. that's it's biggest plus, whether it be a floundering series or not.

[garyshell]

I have a better idea. Just eliminate the ovals altogether and then there is no need for the dichotomous podium.

In a true auto race, drivers turn left AND right.

BZ


The war is over. In a true diverse series real drivers have to learn both disciplines. The have this other series that might be more suited to your tastes (although you might have to hold your nose to avoid the political stench, it's called Formula One.

Gary

[garyshell]

Or we could just eliminate ridiculous "podiums" and the Euro-centric form of racing/culture that has made most of America yawn and turn the channel (if they even get the channel).

In a true American auto race, drivers turn left. Only in American club racing do they turn right too. ;)

The war is over. In a true diverse series real drivers have to learn both disciplines. The have this other series that might be more suited to your tastes it's called World of Outlaws Sprint Cars.

Gary

[mileman]

I have a better idea. Just eliminate the ovals altogether and then there is no need for the dichotomous podium.

In a true auto race, drivers turn left AND right.

BZ

You mean to shut down the 500 and close the garage doors for good? Or maybe "LongBeachCar" has the ring that will really save the series. Without the 500 - there is no IndyCar - and no podiums at all...

[bzcam]

? A true auto race doesn't include the Indy 500? Wow, good thing you're not in charge of Indycar.

I'd be ok with running the Indy 500 on the road course at Indy. That would be a heII of a deal, wouldn't it?

BZ

[bzcam]

By your logic then, the only true horse race is a steeplechase, then?

OK Got it! :rolleyes:

I dunno, I'm not an equinophile. I do like horses though - they taste like beef.

BZ

[garyshell]

I'd be ok with running the Indy 500 on the road course at Indy. That would be a heII of a deal, wouldn't it?

BZ


In the fall, yes. In the month of May? Blasphemy!

Gary

[NaBUru38]

I support this as long as the two winners anre't confused with the true champion. By the way, Homestead won't be part of the oval trophy.


I have a better idea. Just eliminate the ovals altogether and then there is no need for the dichotomous podium.

In a true auto race, drivers turn left AND right.
So you would like clock-wise ovals?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes Turn3 and Ken, she can do it. I would take wagers on that. ;)

DF..I wish I lived near you. I would ENJOY taking your money...lol

That said, I think realistically she could be in the top 5 in the oval standings...

[Mark in Oshawa]

In the fall, yes. In the month of May? Blasphemy!

Gary
How About NEVER??? That road course at Indy sucks....whereas that oval....well there is a reason we love the 500 right??

[Mark in Oshawa]

As for my opinion of these two championships...unless there is REAL money for this...I am more or less against it. One series, one set of drivers, one set of teams..why two championships? I guess I am warming up to it...but right now I am not sure I like it...

[UltimateDanGTR]

As for my opinion of these two championships...unless there is REAL money for this...I am more or less against it. One series, one set of drivers, one set of teams..why two championships? I guess I am warming up to it...but right now I am not sure I like it...

I agree. one championship is all that is needed. The IndyCar series (and i said this earlier) is great in that in provides a great range of tracks, and splitting it into 2 series just undermines the series' biggest strength, the variety (and undermines the overall championship). and we know the series isn't what the AOWR premier series used to be, so it should play to its strengths, which here it isn't.

That's my view of it anyway.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I agree. one championship is all that is needed. The IndyCar series (and i said this earlier) is great in that in provides a great range of tracks, and splitting it into 2 series just undermines the series' biggest strength, the variety (and undermines the overall championship). and we know the series isn't what the AOWR premier series used to be, so it should play to its strengths, which here it isn't.

That's my view of it anyway.

Appairently there is one championship, but just dividing the points up into two categories for some additional cash on the table. For a team like SFR, who will only really be remotely competitive on ovals, maybe this works. For the Penske's of the world...I don't really see the point.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Appairently there is one championship, but just dividing the points up into two categories for some additional cash on the table. For a team like SFR, who will only really be remotely competitive on ovals, maybe this works. For the Penske's of the world...I don't really see the point.

good point. but really, the Penskes and Ganassis are gonna be the main contenders in the road, oval and overall championships. In that perspective, there is not much point. If the smaller teams benefit, there may be a good reasoning to it, but otherwise it seems pointless.

[anthonyvop]

While I like the plan in principle I do have some reservations.

The idea of a Championship inside a Championship is to maintain fan interest in case of a runaway points leader. To end both championships before the season finale defeats the purpose.

I would suggest keeping the Oval Championship alive through the season Finale at HMS.

Even better........Make HMS a double header. Road race on Saturday and Oval race on Sunday. Doubtful it would ever happen but weirder ideas of come out of Indy.

[anthonyvop]

You mean to shut down the 500 and close the garage doors for good? Or maybe "LongBeachCar" has the ring that will really save the series. Without the 500 - there is no IndyCar - and no podiums at all...

2 things!

The name Indy has done squat for the other races.

and


Indy has no podium.

[SarahFan]

Yes Turn3 and Ken, she can do it. I would take wagers on that. ;)

ok... let make it interesting

I just purchased a Randy Owens serigraph......http://www.randyowens.com/

whats your most priced Danica collectable?

[DanicaFan]

ok... let make it interesting

I just purchased a Randy Owens serigraph......http://www.randyowens.com/

whats your most priced Danica collectable?

My most prized Danica collectible, other than my pictures with her, is her racing suit from 2006.

[bzcam]

You mean to shut down the 500 and close the garage doors for good? Or maybe "LongBeachCar" has the ring that will really save the series. Without the 500 - there is no IndyCar - and no podiums at all...


How about BarberCar? WatkinsGlenCar? SonomaCar? Or my personal favorite, CampingWorldLongBeachCarPresentedbyWestfieldInsura nceandPoweredbyHondaandBrazilianEthonolCar. That last one really has a ring to it.

BZ

[SarahFan]

My most prized Danica collectible, other than my pictures with her, is her racing suit from 2006.

you ever worn it?

lets bet it....

whats it worth?

honestly its not worth anything to me...but the serigraph I bought was only $165....

so how about my serigraph+$200 Vs your 2006 danica driving suit says Danica wont win the Oval championship

?

[harvick#1]

fire suits actually are up there, prolly around a grand or so, I've seen a McNish Audi suit go for 3 grand on Ebay, but that was for charity

[SarahFan]

fire suits actually are up there, prolly around a grand or so, I've seen a McNish Audi suit go for 3 grand on Ebay, but that was for charity

but its not worth anything to me

[the bro]

Is this for this year? Doesn't it seem a little odd to roll out such a program part way through the year?

[NickFalzone]

but its not worth anything to me

lol... sure it's not :) But if DF wants to play who are we to dissuade him. DF lets do this bet Serie-Graf vs DP Firesuit.

[harvick#1]

but its not worth anything to me

:rotflmao:

very true

[SarahFan]

lol... sure it's not :) But if DF wants to play who are we to dissuade him. DF lets do this bet Serie-Graf vs DP Firesuit.

I'm 6' 210..... it would never fit

[TURN3]

I agree. one championship is all that is needed. The IndyCar series (and i said this earlier) is great in that in provides a great range of tracks, and splitting it into 2 series just undermines the series' biggest strength, the variety (and undermines the overall championship). and we know the series isn't what the AOWR premier series used to be, so it should play to its strengths, which here it isn't.

That's my view of it anyway.

I've been thinking about what you said on undermining the overall champ, and I agree with you. Very good point. Indycar used to be known for the overall diversity required to be a champ and the track schedule is getting back to that as stated here or in another thread. If you want on oval world champ, see NASCAR, if you want a road/street champ, see F1. If you want a champ that can conquer anything, see Indycar.

[TURN3]

Do it Dfan, put your money where your mouth is for the first time ever (at least on this forum). You called out for it. I can vouch for Ken, he'll pay his end...albeit without much a worry of losing in this case.

Ken, if you win that firesuit, lets burn it in effigy at LBGP next year! The irony of buring a firesuit!

[anthonyvop]

Is this for this year? Doesn't it seem a little odd to roll out such a program part way through the year?

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

[Easy Drifter]

All the extra points being awarded at Indy are favouring those good on the ovals over the road course for the overall championship.
Won't affect the two championship idea but they cannot be allowed to become anywhere near as important individually as the overall championship.

[anthonyvop]

if you want a road/street champ, see F1. If you want a champ that can conquer anything, see Indycar.

No....See Rally!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Do it Dfan, put your money where your mouth is for the first time ever (at least on this forum). You called out for it. I can vouch for Ken, he'll pay his end...albeit without much a worry of losing in this case.

Ken, if you win that firesuit, lets burn it in effigy at LBGP next year! The irony of buring a firesuit!

Now I am with you on most things Danica Turn 3...but I would like Ken to auction it off for the dough and donate it to the charity of his choice. I hate waste, and I hate the idea of that suit doing some good. Maybe DF fan will buy it back...lol

Beside...how much heat does it take to really get to the point where Nomex gives up? You guys might have to get a permit from the City of Long Beach and the LBFD there to supervise....

[Lousada]

All the extra points being awarded at Indy are favouring those good on the ovals over the road course for the overall championship.
How many extra points are awarded at Indy? I thought only the 15 at qualifying. But the oval/road divide is 8/9, so those good on road courses are actually favoured.



Won't affect the two championship idea but they cannot be allowed to become anywhere near as important individually as the overall championship.
Well then, how does it work? Since the split is around 50/50, those running for the overall championship will be on top of both championships by default. They won't be interested in these sub-championships anymore than a little sidenote on their achievements.

I'm also just cringing at the thought of overhyped commentators using this to inflate the succeses of drivers. Just think, next year Will Power could be a "three time Indycar Champion".


In my opinion, if they want these seperate championships to have succes. They must add races that are not part of the overall championship but only the individual championships. It would be a way to keep small races on the trail and would also immediately raise the standing of succesful races like Texas and Long Beach over others.

[DanicaFan]

Do it Dfan, put your money where your mouth is for the first time ever (at least on this forum). You called out for it. I can vouch for Ken, he'll pay his end...albeit without much a worry of losing in this case.

Ken, if you win that firesuit, lets burn it in effigy at LBGP next year! The irony of buring a firesuit!

Sorry guys, I will never risk losing this suit and setting one of Danica's suits on fire is grounds for capital punishment. ;)

[SarahFan]

Sorry guys, I will never risk losing this suit and setting one of Danica's suits on fire is grounds for capital punishment. ;)

Fair enough....

But what's a fair bet.... Or are you not willing to back up your statement?

[TURN3]

I don't understand DFan? Why the sudden lack of confidence again? You are so sure then what is the risk? You just proved to me once and for all that all this talk of yours is fake. You're no Danica Fan, you just say ridiculous things to give all of us things to laugh hysterically about. I knew it, your gig has been had! So, 2 questions: 1. Who is your REAL favorite driver? and 2. Do you also do stand-up at a local comedy club?

[DanicaFan]

I don't understand DFan? Why the sudden lack of confidence again? You are so sure then what is the risk? You just proved to me once and for all that all this talk of yours is fake. You're no Danica Fan, you just say ridiculous things to give all of us things to laugh hysterically about. I knew it, your gig has been had! So, 2 questions: 1. Who is your REAL favorite driver? and 2. Do you also do stand-up at a local comedy club?

Whatever... Danica is my favorite driver, has been since 2004. I know she has enough talent to do it, its the equipment that I worry about. I know Andretti Autosport is a top team in the series but anything mechanical can go bad. With that in the equation, Im not going to risk my favorite memorabilia, her racesuit, over a suspension arm breaking or something.

[TURN3]

Whatever... Danica is my favorite driver, has been since 2004. I know she has enough talent to do it, its the equipment that I worry about. I know Andretti Autosport is a top team in the series but anything mechanical can go bad. With that in the equation, Im not going to risk my favorite memorabilia, her racesuit, over a suspension arm breaking or something.

Whatever, you're a fake Danica Fan. You NEVER back anything up you say with any type of collateral or statistics or facts. You say she has the talent to do it, yet she never has been close to remotely competitive for wins or a championship (might want to go back pre-2004 to see just how far back the horror of her un-competitiveness goes btw). You blame the "equipment" yet her equipment is the one thing that gives her an advantage over 2/3 of the field. Her "equipment" didn't fail a single time last year DFan, yet every other driver's did at some point. You make ZERO sense.

Ok, so despite me being onto your chirade and knowing you're a fake Danica Fan...Ken's post asks for a fair stake and you've offered nothing. So is this about "your most prized possession" or "any possession"? Make an offer and put your money where your mouth is. People here have been begging you to for years and you have yet to do anything about it FakeDanicaFan!!! Come on have some fun!

[TURN3]

I have a suggestion! How about you have to change your name to MilkaFan for the entire 2011 season AND you can't mention or refer to Danica on any board in this forum (i.e. Indycar, NASCAR, etc.). In other words we don't have to hear anything ridiculous about Danica for an entire season...at least from your posts.

[SarahFan]

proposed bet #2

I'll put up my recently purchased Randy Owens serigraph (PT and Will at the LBGP)

Vs.

you putting on the Danica driving suit and taking and posting a picture of you standing in the middle of the danishrine


what do you think D?

[harvick#1]

Whatever, you're a fake Danica Fan. You NEVER back anything up you say with any type of collateral or statistics or facts. You say she has the talent to do it, yet she never has been close to remotely competitive for wins or a championship (might want to go back pre-2004 to see just how far back the horror of her un-competitiveness goes btw). You blame the "equipment" yet her equipment is the one thing that gives her an advantage over 2/3 of the field. Her "equipment" didn't fail a single time last year DFan, yet every other driver's did at some point. You make ZERO sense.

Ok, so despite me being onto your chirade and knowing you're a fake Danica Fan...Ken's post asks for a fair stake and you've offered nothing. So is this about "your most prized possession" or "any possession"? Make an offer and put your money where your mouth is. People here have been begging you to for years and you have yet to do anything about it FakeDanicaFan!!! Come on have some fun!

dont worry, when she is in Nascar, shes gonna blame Hendrick equipment for not getting the job done :p :

[NaBUru38]

Hey, back to topic: what drivers names will you pick for the trophies once the poll begins? I'm for Andretti Brothers or Rick Mears for the best oval driver, and Mario Andretti for the best road/street driver. AJ Foyt won at Le Mans, Sebring and Daytona with sports cars, and shrinking his success to ovals with the trophy would be unfair.

[NaBUru38]

I'm for Andretti Brothers or Rick Mears for the best oval driver
Sorry, I meant the Al and Bobby Unser Brothers.

[SoCalPVguy]

A desperate gimmick, a' la the Cup Chase.... more of the PC dumbed-down AYSO'ing of America (every one gets a trophy). I see the point - by trying to include more "winners" they may garner some more media attention --- hell, maybe in the best-case scenario, Princess Danica will win the "Oval Championship" and the lamestream media can cum all over thermselves with exitement, just before she exits to Nascar. I see the goal but I do not like it. For example that's why all the stick and ball sports have several divisions, so ther can be 3 ot 4 'pennant winners' to keep up interest during the long season versus the old days when only the top team in each league went to the World Series...

[TURN3]

A desperate gimmick, a' la the Cup Chase.... more of the PC dumbed-down AYSO'ing of America (every one gets a trophy). I see the point - by trying to include more "winners" they may garner some more media attention --- hell, maybe in the best-case scenario, Princess Danica will win the "Oval Championship" and the lamestream media can cum all over thermselves with exitement, just before she exits to Nascar. I see the goal but I do not like it. For example that's why all the stick and ball sports have several divisions, so ther can be 3 ot 4 'pennant winners' to keep up interest during the long season versus the old days when only the top team in each league went to the World Series...

Danica has zero chance of winning any type of championship. I realize you're just making an example but she's more likely in the negative percentile than even zero. Odds of winning he Powerball have to be better.

[garyshell]

The explanation I saw from Randy was that the idea was to draw more attention to the fact that the series has a diversity of track types, ovals and road/street courses. And in light of that, I think it's a really good idea. I don't see it as watering or dumbing down anything.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

The explanation I saw from Randy was that the idea was to draw more attention to the fact that the series has a diversity of track types, ovals and road/street courses. And in light of that, I think it's a really good idea. I don't see it as watering or dumbing down anything.

Gary

It is all what you say...but I do think it makes something out of nothing too. That said, a really pretty trophy and a big check for winning one of the sub championships would be a nice photo op for some sponsor.

The oval champ? I would name the trophy the Wilbur Shaw trophy...a 4 time winner at Indy, and an ex president of the Speedway.

The road/street trophy? Simple...the Mario Andretti trophy.

Why not an AJ Foyt trophy? Simple...make that the trophy you give to your overall champion...because AJ is the greatest Indycar driver of all time..PERIOD.

[TURN3]

It is all what you say...but I do think it makes something out of nothing too. That said, a really pretty trophy and a big check for winning one of the sub championships would be a nice photo op for some sponsor.

The oval champ? I would name the trophy the Wilbur Shaw trophy...a 4 time winner at Indy, and an ex president of the Speedway.

The road/street trophy? Simple...the Mario Andretti trophy.

Why not an AJ Foyt trophy? Simple...make that the trophy you give to your overall champion...because AJ is the greatest Indycar driver of all time..PERIOD.

Yep, except Wilbur wasn't a 4 time winner unless I'm missing some little known myth.

[ICWS]

This creation of two different championships (oval and road course) reminds me of past proposals that Mark C. made on the website about unifying IRL and CCWS, and how the IRL would stricly be an American oval track series while CCWS would race on road and street courses both in America and in other countries. With this creation of two championships, do you think that the series could be heading down the path that Mark C. proposed years ago? The unfied series could be called the IndyCar World Series and have these two divisions. I would suggest that there would be 16 races for the oval track division and 16 for the road/stret course division for a total of 32 races. Then, the Indianapolis 500 could be the 33rd race (matching the number of entries in the race) and allow drivers from both division to participate. Points would be awarded for both divisions. The Indy 500 would then represent the world series race of the season.

[ICWS]

Also, the teams that participate in the oval tracks division would be encouraged to sign drivers from USAC and World of Outlaws. The road course division would sign drivers all of the world (with a bias towards American drivers). The real trick would be trying to find a common chassis and engine to allow teams from both series to compete in the Indy 500 and possibly transition between both divisions.

[px400r]

I would suggest that there would be 16 races for the oval track division and 16 for the road/stret course division for a total of 32 races.

I doubt you can put together a schedule of 16 oval races without renting a some of those tracks.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yep, except Wilbur wasn't a 4 time winner unless I'm missing some little known myth.

Oops...I just did a mental count...lol....AJ and Rick have the 4 times....

[Mark in Oshawa]

This creation of two different championships (oval and road course) reminds me of past proposals that Mark C. made on the website about unifying IRL and CCWS, and how the IRL would stricly be an American oval track series while CCWS would race on road and street courses both in America and in other countries. With this creation of two championships, do you think that the series could be heading down the path that Mark C. proposed years ago? The unfied series could be called the IndyCar World Series and have these two divisions. I would suggest that there would be 16 races for the oval track division and 16 for the road/stret course division for a total of 32 races. Then, the Indianapolis 500 could be the 33rd race (matching the number of entries in the race) and allow drivers from both division to participate. Points would be awarded for both divisions. The Indy 500 would then represent the world series race of the season.

Nope....because what you suggest is almost what was happening when the split was on. One series, one set of teams...one points system...and give away maybe a few trophies for extra press attention but basically don't go down this road. We were split for 15 years and it drove the whole world of AOWR right into the ditch...

[ICWS]

I realize that the proposal I wrote is unrealistic. I was merely pointing out how the oval and road course champions (within one championship) reminded me of Mark C.'s past proposals. My oval series proposal mostly came out of a desire to see drivers from the USAC "triple crown" series (maybe even WoO series) compete in IndyCar like they're supposed to rather than head over to NASCAR.

[TURN3]

Oops...I just did a mental count...lol....AJ and Rick have the 4 times....

And Big Al

[ICWS]

I doubt you can put together a schedule of 16 oval races without renting a some of those tracks.

I know having 16 ovals would be more like a fantasy, I just think it would be an interesting marketing strategy in how the two division would accumulate 32 races and how the world series race (Indy 500) represents the 33rd race; which is the amount of cars that qualify for that race. In regard to finding more ovals, IndyCar should look to take advantage of some NASCAR tracks possibly losing dates due to ISC and SMI looking to move these dates to other tracks. Tracks like New Hampshire, Las Vegas (who have been struggling to receive a 2nd date), Rockingham, NC and Michigan are good examples. Here are some ovals the series can have for a 16 race schedule (excluding the Indy 500):

1. Milwaukee (Hopefully IndyCar can manage to put this race back on its schedule)
2. Texas
3. Kentucky
4. Iowa
5. Homestead
6. Chicagoland
7. Phoenix
8. Michigan
9. California
10. Las Vegas (Try to make this race the oval division's season finale)
11. Rockingham, NC (I'm not sure how well IndyCars would fare here but this is a track that NASCAR has mostly abandoned so IndyCar would be the main event of the year)
12. Gateway
13. New Hampshire
14. Atlanta (This track has been struggling with NASCAR attendance and may look to cut back to just one race)
15. Charlotte (Same with Atlanta)
16. Richmond (Hopefully the new car will prevent the parade racing normally seen at this track)

Note:I considered Pikes Peak but that track seems more content with club racing moreso than major league racing. Pocono would be cool but the cars would need more horsepower and less downforce to make the race good.

[ICWS]

Actually, thrown in Kansas along with the tracks I listed. It could replace Gateway or Rockingham. I chose not to include Motegi because the oval division would be an all-American schedule. Perhaps the road course division could use Motegi's road course instead.

[Chris R]

It is all what you say...but I do think it makes something out of nothing too. That said, a really pretty trophy and a big check for winning one of the sub championships would be a nice photo op for some sponsor.

The oval champ? I would name the trophy the Wilbur Shaw trophy...a 4 time winner at Indy, and an ex president of the Speedway.

The road/street trophy? Simple...the Mario Andretti trophy.

Why not an AJ Foyt trophy? Simple...make that the trophy you give to your overall champion...because AJ is the greatest Indycar driver of all time..PERIOD.

I like it - although the issue with Wilbur Shaw was already pointed out.... (If you want to play the "woulda, shoulda, coulda" game - Shaw could easily have been a 5 time winner - was heading to a handy 3rd win in a row in 1941 when the wheel on his Maserati broke, which would have been an incredible 5th in a row if his 1938 second place finish had been a first - which was entirely plausible - I forget the back story at the moment...)

I agree that naming the oval trophy after Foyt sells him short - he is/was the best plain period....

I would also say perhaps they should stick to naming the trophy after people that have already passed away - but I guess most of the all time greats are still living....

[px400r]

I know having 16 ovals would be more like a fantasy,

Unfortunately, the real fantasy is thinking that there is enough money to have decent grids for 32 races. This plan to recognize separate oval and road course champions is misguided IMO. Now you'll have (effectively) four different champions- oval, road course, overall, and Indy 500. How do you draw in new fans when they won't be able to figure out something simple like who is the reigning champion? WTF?

[e2mtt]

I think it's a great idea. It's a way to put an official stamp on something that is already discussed a lot, the road/steet skills vs. the oval racing skills. The overall championship is still the big prize, the others are just gravy. Extra chances to pick up prize money, extra titles to sell to sponsors. Nothing lost at all.

[garyshell]

Unfortunately, the real fantasy is thinking that there is enough money to have decent grids for 32 races. This plan to recognize separate oval and road course champions is misguided IMO. Now you'll have (effectively) four different champions- oval, road course, overall, and Indy 500. How do you draw in new fans when they won't be able to figure out something simple like who is the reigning champion? WTF?


Oh please! Really? Let me put this very bluntly, any "fan" that can't figure that out is to freakin' stupid to even worry about.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

Oh please! Really? Let me put this very bluntly, any "fan" that can't figure that out is to freakin' stupid to even worry about.

Gary

Nobody ever when broke by underestimating the intelligence of the general public.

[garyshell]

Nobody ever when broke by underestimating the intelligence of the general public.


Oh, the setup for this is just too easy... but I will resist.

Gary

[ICWS]

Unfortunately, the real fantasy is thinking that there is enough money to have decent grids for 32 races. This plan to recognize separate oval and road course champions is misguided IMO. Now you'll have (effectively) four different champions- oval, road course, overall, and Indy 500. How do you draw in new fans when they won't be able to figure out something simple like who is the reigning champion? WTF?

The point of having 2 divisions is a way to allow more teams, drivers and sponsorships into the series. If you want to have more of a definite overall championship, I would suggest another Mark C. proposal: Use 4-6 races spilt evenly between road/street circuits and oval tracks. For example (once again, in fantasy world): Long Beach, Indy 500, Toronto, Michigan, Mexico City, California could be contested by both divisions and have a separate points standing from the 2 divisions.

Sports leagues like the NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL all recoginize their division and conference champions, but fans don't let those championships confuse them from the overall champions. In that manner, I don't think new fans would care that much if there were multiple titles handed out as long as there is one identifiable champion.

[garyshell]

The point of having 2 divisions is a way to allow more teams, drivers and sponsorships into the series.

We don't have enough sponsors to back the existing teams as it is now. Where are these mythical "more sponsors" going to come from?

Gary

[ICWS]

We don't have enough sponsors to back the existing teams as it is now. Where are these mythical "more sponsors" going to come from?

Gary

The proposal is not to be seen as something to be in put in place immediately. IndyCar needs to work on improving the product they have now in order to intice sponsors, especially NASCAR sponsors that are up in the air about where they're going to be heading next (Budweiser and Pennzoil are prime examples). The concept of getting more sponsors is only mythical due to where the series is currently now. The future is more important in judging whether the series can gain more sponsors. IndyCar has an advantage over NASCAR in regard to having the potential of improving the product in the years to come whereas NASCAR is reluctantly stuck with their Car of Today and the watered-down racing that has resulted from it.

The next 5 years will be an intriguing and crucial period for IndyCar and hopefully the new car will provide a more challenging car for the drivers, provide better competition and entertainment for the fans watching in person and on T.V. and be suitable for both ovals and road/street courses.

As said before, the oval division concept was simply an idea to attract teams from USAC (which have decent sponsorships) and provide an avenue for aspiring open-wheel oval-trackers to compete in the Indianapolis 500.

[garyshell]

As said before, the oval division concept was simply an idea to attract teams from USAC (which have decent sponsorships) and provide an avenue for aspiring open-wheel oval-trackers to compete in the Indianapolis 500.

Someone else already had that same vision.

Gary

[ICWS]

Someone else already had that same vision.

Gary

The difference between this proposal and the travesty that TG caused is that the 2 divisions would be under one organization and any competition would be ON THE TRACK instead of backstabbing political competition for control over this type of racing. The proposal is not meant to be like an NFL vs. AFL scenario. Instead, it is supposed to be like an NFC vs. AFC type of series. The two divisions would have the same chassis, engines and tires and the divisions would avoid racing each other on the same weekend (with the exception of the joint races) which would allow drivers from one division to attempt to compete in some of the races in the other division and vice-versa.

The two divisions proposal also goes in-line with the recent method of organizing the schedule. Notice how the series started the season with 4 consecutive road/street courses (Brazil, St. Pete, Barber, Long Beach), takes a week off and then will go to 4 consecutive ovals (Kansas, Indy, Texas, Iowa), and then takes another week off before going to 5 more road course consecutively (Watkins Glen, Toronto, Edmonton, Mid-Ohio, Sonoma) and finishes the season with 4 ovals again (Chicagoland, Kentucky, Japan, Homestead).

The theory behind this (as IndyCar has pointed out at least once) is to help teams save money by not forcing them to adjust from going to a oval to a road course from week-to-week and instead have a more consistent schedule period in which the teams will dedicate themselves to a type of circuit (road courses) for 4-5 races and then take a week off to allow more time to prepare for a different circuit (oval tracks) for 4 races and then repeat the cycle again. However, by doing this, off-weekends are put in place instead of weekends spent at a track. If teams had one type of circuit to race at, they would not need that many off-weekends to adjust to the next race.

Having two divisions (in which one is dedicated to ovals and the other to road courses) allow teams to focus on preparing for the tracks the division chooses to race at and not worry about needing to preparing for other circuits. The joint races (which would include 2-3 races from both styles of tracks) are the only exceptions.

Part of NASCAR's success is that their season is long enough to prevent it from not avoiding media coverage. The two divisions, when alternating weekends, could accumulate to having over 30 races (split between ovals and road courses) which allows for an overall season that matches NASCAR's.

[px400r]

Oh please! Really? Let me put this very bluntly, any "fan" that can't figure that out is to freakin' stupid to even worry about.

Gary

Then why stop there? Why not have a "qualifying" champion? How about awarding points based on improvement from starting spot to finish- then crowning a champion in that at the end of the year? Then we can also have a ladie's division, complete with overall, road, oval, Indy 500, qualifying, etc. champions?

The sport needs all the fans it can attract. Especially the lowest common denominator (i.e., stupid ones).

[SarahFan]

How about awarding points based on improvement from starting spot to finish- (i.e., stupid ones).


while not a championship.....id love to see them give a fat check for the hard charger.....

attrition doesnt count.....but you get 2 points for every on track pass, and 1 for every car passed in the pits(its a team sport afterall) and 1 for every car you lap

[Mark in Oshawa]

I know having 16 ovals would be more like a fantasy, I just think it would be an interesting marketing strategy in how the two division would accumulate 32 races and how the world series race (Indy 500) represents the 33rd race; which is the amount of cars that qualify for that race. In regard to finding more ovals, IndyCar should look to take advantage of some NASCAR tracks possibly losing dates due to ISC and SMI looking to move these dates to other tracks. Tracks like New Hampshire, Las Vegas (who have been struggling to receive a 2nd date), Rockingham, NC and Michigan are good examples. Here are some ovals the series can have for a 16 race schedule (excluding the Indy 500):

1. Milwaukee (Hopefully IndyCar can manage to put this race back on its schedule)
2. Texas
3. Kentucky
4. Iowa
5. Homestead
6. Chicagoland
7. Phoenix
8. Michigan
9. California
10. Las Vegas (Try to make this race the oval division's season finale)
11. Rockingham, NC (I'm not sure how well IndyCars would fare here but this is a track that NASCAR has mostly abandoned so IndyCar would be the main event of the year)
12. Gateway
13. New Hampshire
14. Atlanta (This track has been struggling with NASCAR attendance and may look to cut back to just one race)
15. Charlotte (Same with Atlanta)
16. Richmond (Hopefully the new car will prevent the parade racing normally seen at this track)

Note:I considered Pikes Peak but that track seems more content with club racing moreso than major league racing. Pocono would be cool but the cars would need more horsepower and less downforce to make the race good.

Gateway? Atlanta????? ROCKINGHAM????

Not sure if you noticed...but NASCAR cant draw decent at Gateway, CART didn't do well there after a bit, Atlanta is a LOUSY sports town..and Rockingham is in the middle of NOWHERE.

C'mon.....quit blue sky thinking...

[Jag_Warrior]

I don't watch Wind Tunnel very often anymore. But I got a real kick out of Despain and Miller wondering why the IRL would announce this DURING the season... like immediately after The Brand had been stinking up the room on road courses. Maybe they'll create yet another faux championship (that also has no money attached to it) and give her a trophy for Driver With The Best Twitter Page.

I hope that's not why they did this. Cause if The Danica was even discussed while they were mapping this out, that would say just how pitiful this thing has gotten.

To be honest, I don't get the concept. Back when there was sponsor money behind things like the Marlboro Challenge, it made sense. But for a series that can barely support the current championship, what will this matter? Until you can do one right, why bring on a second one? Somebody help me understand this.

[ICWS]

Gateway? Atlanta????? ROCKINGHAM????

Not sure if you noticed...but NASCAR cant draw decent at Gateway, CART didn't do well there after a bit, Atlanta is a LOUSY sports town..and Rockingham is in the middle of NOWHERE.

C'mon.....quit blue sky thinking...

Gateway's attendance is a result of having Busch and Truck series races there; I doubt you draw a lot of fans to the Triple-A versions of NASCAR. If they had a Cup series race I guarantee attendance would be different. If you think that CART didn't draw a crowd at that track, then watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhCzeWbCMok. The announcer in this video mentioned about 50,000 people came out, which for a track like Gateway is almost a sell-out. Gateway is also liked by drivers who have raced there due to its unique configuration. Speaking of CART, hopefully the new IndyCar will replicate racing like that instead of the oval track racing currently seen in the series.

Calling Atlanta a lousy sports town would be the same as calling Charlotte a lousy sports town; big cities with average performing sports teams. Yet that doesn't effect the attendance at their race tracks. The only problem with the attendance is the fact that both Atlanta and Charlotte have two races and both races are expensive. If Charlotte were to drop the October Cup race Atlanta drops the March Cup race IndyCar (with its new car) could fill both voids by offering a different and hopefully more entertaining product at a morse reasonable price.

As far as Rockingham, NC goes, it is in the middle of nowhere but so is Newton, Iowa. The point once again is to try races on different types of oval tracks. Like Charlotte and Atlanta, Rockingham struggled due to having two races, as well as staging the two races in February and October (which often brought poor weather). Rockingham represents another void for IndyCar to fill. Hopefully the track's owner Andy Hillenburg could use his Indianapolis association to entice IndyCar into racing there. The race could be done in April and be promoted as the major league event for that track's season.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Gateway's attendance is a result of having Busch and Truck series races there; I doubt you draw a lot of fans to the Triple-A versions of NASCAR. If they had a Cup series race I guarantee attendance would be different. If you think that CART didn't draw a crowd at that track, then watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhCzeWbCMok. The announcer in this video mentioned about 50,000 people came out, which for a track like Gateway is almost a sell-out. Gateway is also liked by drivers who have raced there due to its unique configuration. Speaking of CART, hopefully the new IndyCar will replicate racing like that instead of the oval track racing currently seen in the series. CART did alright in the early times, but why then did they leave? If you have a rational answer to that instead of your opinion, you will likely discover that it was a big deal in the beginning, and isn't now. I would like them back there personally as a fan watching on TV. I like the oval BUT even when TG was running nothing but ovals did they even look at the track. There is a reason for that....


Calling Atlanta a lousy sports town would be the same as calling Charlotte a lousy sports town; big cities with average performing sports teams. Yet that doesn't effect the attendance at their race tracks. The only problem with the attendance is the fact that both Atlanta and Charlotte have two races and both races are expensive. If Charlotte were to drop the October Cup race Atlanta drops the March Cup race IndyCar (with its new car) could fill both voids by offering a different and hopefully more entertaining product at a morse reasonable price.

Charlotte isn't a bad sports city in compasion to Atlanta. Atlanta wasn't selling out NLCS games with the Braves. With a stadium right downtown off the MARTA. Way out in the boonies is AMS and they don't go down there for NASCAR. Will you tell me with a straight face the oval there will take people down there for the Indy cars? I can tell you that it would be a pretty grim attendance. If you cant sell NASCAR in Georgia's largest city, what makes you think they want Indycars? CART and USAC had them there on and off for years in Atlanta's old configuration and they never were a big draw. That was with the Unsers and AJ Foyt and the like......


As far as Rockingham, NC goes, it is in the middle of nowhere but so is Newton, Iowa. The point once again is to try races on different types of oval tracks. Like Charlotte and Atlanta, Rockingham struggled due to having two races, as well as staging the two races in February and October (which often brought poor weather). Rockingham represents another void for IndyCar to fill. Hopefully the track's owner Andy Hillenburg could use his Indianapolis association to entice IndyCar into racing there. The race could be done in April and be promoted as the major league event for that track's season.

Newton works because no one in Iowa has any other racing choices at this level. It also works because there is a lot of community spirit and dedication to racing in Iowa. Also note that is about 4 hours from a TON of people so it isn't really that out of the way. Rockingham is also close to a lot of people...who all watch NASCAR religiously. What is more, the town of Rockingham is just up the road from Darlington, which is the classic home for NASCAR in the region, and they have some attendance issues. You are trying to sell what is a foreign sport to the area in the mindset of the citizens where they were NOT even travelling large numbers to see the cars they LIKE.

I am sure Hillenburg would love to have them, but on terms that ensure the IRL takes all the financial risk. I don't think you make that gamble.

[ICWS]

The reason why Gateway didn't want to be on CART's schedule was because they felt the track was being used as a political pawn by CART to compete against the Indy 500. From 1997 to 1999, the CART Gateway race was on the day before the Indy 500. The attendance was affected because open-wheel fans from that area chose to travel to Indianapolis instead of going to the Gateway race. If CART had avoided doing this in the first place, attendance may have been different.

Once again, I've proposed going to Atlanta and Charlotte not with the current IndyCar (which presents mediocre races on ovals) but with a new car that should be designed to fix the problems that the current car has on ovals. I apologize if I'm not making this point clearer. I'm aware that current IndyCars would struggle attracting fans to those tracks, so it should be a goal for the series to work with their new car so that it can improve oval racing for tracks like Atlanta and Charlotte.

You may be right in your argument in regard to racing at Rockingham. It could be a struggle introducing a foreign racing series to these kinds of fans. But how come NASCAR Busch and Truck series (minor league racing) consistently raced at the Milwaukee Mile after that track was established many years before as being IndyCar territory? Promotion and credibility would be the main factor in this case. If IndyCar fixes their product and regains the credibility they had before the CART-IRL fiasco, the series will have an easier time promoting itself and have a better chance of introducing itself to new audiences in places like Rockingham, North Carolina. I think Rockingham would take a series like IndyCar (if it proves that it is major league racing) over having a bunch of local racing and amateur stock car series races like ARCA, ASA and USAR.

[NickFalzone]

I don't watch Wind Tunnel very often anymore. But I got a real kick out of Despain and Miller wondering why the IRL would announce this DURING the season... like immediately after The Brand had been stinking up the room on road courses. Maybe they'll create yet another faux championship (that also has no money attached to it) and give her a trophy for Driver With The Best Twitter Page.

I hope that's not why they did this. Cause if The Danica was even discussed while they were mapping this out, that would say just how pitiful this thing has gotten.

To be honest, I don't get the concept. Back when there was sponsor money behind things like the Marlboro Challenge, it made sense. But for a series that can barely support the current championship, what will this matter? Until you can do one right, why bring on a second one? Somebody help me understand this.

I doubt that Danica had ANYTHING to do with this decision. IMO the IRL has moved past her, just as she is apparently moving past the IRL. The biggest thing that this course-specific championship does is give the smaller teams with drivers like Justin Wilson or Alex Tagliani a shot at a road/street championship. They have a shot at this. The only drivers that are going to win the oval trophy are the ones on Penske or Ganassi. Danica will never win a championship in the IRL. Her greatest shot at success here is with the 500, and for better or worse, that win may very well be within her grasp.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The reason why Gateway didn't want to be on CART's schedule was because they felt the track was being used as a political pawn by CART to compete against the Indy 500. From 1997 to 1999, the CART Gateway race was on the day before the Indy 500. The attendance was affected because open-wheel fans from that area chose to travel to Indianapolis instead of going to the Gateway race. If CART had avoided doing this in the first place, attendance may have been different. You did say in an earlier post that the track was well attended. Now you say it wasn't? I think the reality of it is, Gateway is viable with the right promotor and the will to make it work in the long term. The problem is it seems the IRL/ and or CART/CCWS in their previous existence have had a nasty habit of bailing on markets. I think Gateway may just be poisoned ground...


Once again, I've proposed going to Atlanta and Charlotte not with the current IndyCar (which presents mediocre races on ovals) but with a new car that should be designed to fix the problems that the current car has on ovals. I apologize if I'm not making this point clearer. I'm aware that current IndyCars would struggle attracting fans to those tracks, so it should be a goal for the series to work with their new car so that it can improve oval racing for tracks like Atlanta and Charlotte.

A new car has to work before you even think of going to the deep south for an oval race. I like the moxy of the idea, but I wouldn't think it would work unless Indy Car's image improves to the point where the people down there start demanding an oval Indycar race.


You may be right in your argument in regard to racing at Rockingham. It could be a struggle introducing a foreign racing series to these kinds of fans. But how come NASCAR Busch and Truck series (minor league racing) consistently raced at the Milwaukee Mile after that track was established many years before as being IndyCar territory? Promotion and credibility would be the main factor in this case. Milwaukee was drawing for NASCAR because when they finally went there, they had nationwide recognition of their product. I bet there are more NASCAR fans in Ontario and we don't even SEE those two series than there is Indycar fans..and we have them here every summer (save one). So if it is that intense for NASCAR here, I have no doubt NASCAR has pentretated the upper midwest market's race fans. Does the IRL have any status in the South? Barber drew alright..but I don't know how much "there" is "there".....


If IndyCar fixes their product and regains the credibility they had before the CART-IRL fiasco, the series will have an easier time promoting itself and have a better chance of introducing itself to new audiences in places like Rockingham, North Carolina. I think Rockingham would take a series like IndyCar (if it proves that it is major league racing) over having a bunch of local racing and amateur stock car series races like ARCA, ASA and USAR.

The Rock would take their stock cars OVER the IRL unless the IRL becomes big time..and then they still likely wouldn't have a shot. IF the Indycar series recovers to the point you could sell this series in the deep south, chances are Bruton Smith's boys will be laying down the red carpet for Charlotte and Atlanta again...and you would go to those OVER the Rock. The Rock is seen as a second rate race track in that area, and is the home for ARCA and ASA and to go there drops you to THAT level as it stands now...

[ICWS]

What I meant to say is that Gateway had good attendance but did not reach its full potential. This was due to its misuse as a competing event against the Indy 500. When they moved it to the fall it was to late of a decision; the damge was already done. Even then the track, as I mentioned, had about 50,000 seats sold (there are about 60,000 total) so if it wasn't intially misused in that fashion, I'm sure they would've sold out their races. But even without the sell-out, the race still brought many people to the track.

I don't understand why you keep criticizing my belief that the series could go to NASCAR tracks in the future. I've said (like what you said in your post) that IndyCar has to improve its product and image before it can venture to southern U.S. tracks like Rockingham, Atlanta and Charlotte. I'm not saying they can do it now in the current state of the series. Am I not making my point clear enough or what?

[Mark in Oshawa]

What I meant to say is that Gateway had good attendance but did not reach its full potential. This was due to its misuse as a competing event against the Indy 500. When they moved it to the fall it was to late of a decision; the damge was already done. Even then the track, as I mentioned, had about 50,000 seats sold (there are about 60,000 total) so if it wasn't intially misused in that fashion, I'm sure they would've sold out their races. But even without the sell-out, the race still brought many people to the track.

I don't understand why you keep criticizing my belief that the series could go to NASCAR tracks in the future. I've said (like what you said in your post) that IndyCar has to improve its product and image before it can venture to southern U.S. tracks like Rockingham, Atlanta and Charlotte. I'm not saying they can do it now in the current state of the series. Am I not making my point clear enough or what?

I wont knock your optimism, but I will point out if the series is to the point it is making serious inroads in NASCAR land, then great, yes, that is a goal. BUT...and this is my point to your optimism (sorry, nothing personal) there is NO way in the next 5 to 10 years likely the Indycars ever make inroads in NASCAR land. In the perfect world of course, but we are in survival mode. I don't see this series looking at going to Charlotte, Atlanta or even Gateway right now. I see them trying to fix what they have and turn over some new fans and get a lot of old ones back. That wont happen by blue sky best case dream scenarios....and when you first posted, you were not talking down the road..you were talking like lets do it....and I knew it wasn't realistic in the now....

[px400r]

To be honest, I don't get the concept. Back when there was sponsor money behind things like the Marlboro Challenge, it made sense. But for a series that can barely support the current championship, what will this matter? Until you can do one right, why bring on a second one? Somebody help me understand this.

IMO, it's a gimmick to try and draw attention to the series. IMO, it doesn't make sense to say that the series is the most diverse and requires oval and road racing skills, then award championships to drives who can only do well in one or the other.

And on top of that- what are the chances that a driver from Penske or Ganassi will consistently do well in both and end up winning oval and road course "championships?" Pretty good IMO.

I'm with you on this one.

[ICWS]

I wont knock your optimism, but I will point out if the series is to the point it is making serious inroads in NASCAR land, then great, yes, that is a goal. BUT...and this is my point to your optimism (sorry, nothing personal) there is NO way in the next 5 to 10 years likely the Indycars ever make inroads in NASCAR land. In the perfect world of course, but we are in survival mode. I don't see this series looking at going to Charlotte, Atlanta or even Gateway right now. I see them trying to fix what they have and turn over some new fans and get a lot of old ones back. That wont happen by blue sky best case dream scenarios....and when you first posted, you were not talking down the road..you were talking like lets do it....and I knew it wasn't realistic in the now....

Fair enough, and I agologize for not pointing out in my original post that this proposal was for a time period down the road instead of doing it as soon as possible. I suppose I may be too optimistic of how the IndyCar series can improve their product and take advantage of a struggling and complacent NASCAR series; kind of like how Mixed Martial Arts have been taking advantage of Boxing's struggle. I do realize this would be a difficult task to accomplish; but I'm like that they appear willing to review and try unconvetional concepts (deltawing, this 3 championships in one season thing, alternative fuel, push-to-pass, option tires, etc.) in order to improve the current product.

[Marbles]

This proposal reminds of the first year of the IRL. It finished at the Indy 500. People were unsure of what should be celebrated. What was more important? The guy who won Indy or the guy who won the championship. Now in the final race of the season we could have a battle for the championship... and the championship. There's is a good chance that the series champion would be upstaged by a lesser "champion" if a real dogfight broke out for that discipline. Just call it a damn trophy and award it at the banquet!

The great thinkers of the IRL have decided that what we need for the casual fan is more confusion.

[e2mtt]

Seriously guys, is it really that complicated?

You really think potential fans won't be interested in Indycar racing because they can't understand that some guy gets a trophy because he did the best at oval tracks, even though he didn't win the overall championship? How many people has the "rookie of the year standings" left confused & drooling on the floor?

The National Football League has conference champions, division champions, and then the Super Bowl winner (league champion). How could anyone follow it all? NCAA men's basketball has regular season conference champions, conference tournament champions, NIT champions, and the NCAA Tournament championship! Surely none of you understand all that!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Seriously guys, is it really that complicated?

You really think potential fans won't be interested in Indycar racing because they can't understand that some guy gets a trophy because he did the best at oval tracks, even though he didn't win the overall championship? How many people has the "rookie of the year standings" left confused & drooling on the floor?

The National Football League has conference champions, division champions, and then the Super Bowl winner (league champion). How could anyone follow it all? NCAA men's basketball has regular season conference champions, conference tournament champions, NIT champions, and the NCAA Tournament championship! Surely none of you understand all that!

We understand it. We also understand it will mean VERY little because the IRL isnt' going to give anyone anything but a pretty trophy. Like the guys who win the conference championship trophies in the NFL, no one really cares...because it is the big prize that counts.

[Marbles]

The National Football League has conference champions, division champions, and then the Super Bowl winner (league champion). How could anyone follow it all? NCAA men's basketball has regular season conference champions, conference tournament champions, NIT champions, and the NCAA Tournament championship! Surely none of you understand all that!

Since you explained the playoffs or post season of different leagues so well let me explain how the IRL post season works.

They don't have one.

Okay, let's pretend they are a football league. No playoffs necessary. The team that wins the most games will be declared the "champion". Perfect! Ya know what. Let's declare the team that wins most games on artificial turf a "champion!" Well, not "the" champion, but a champion.. of sorts. Well, not of sorts because they won the artificial turf championship. They are "Champions!" Let us also declare the team that wins the most games on natural turf a "champion." And let's make the first year team with the most wins a "rookie of the year...

...champion"

Is it utterly confusing? No! But as the only Indy fan in my circle of friends, I feel I've done enough explaining over the past thirty+ years. They are nit just handing out the Rick Mear's Oval Master Racer award or the Hiro Matsu****a "Street King" award and the banquets. They're going to play this thing all season.

"let's take a look if the race to were to end now at how the standings would shake out."

With 4 women taking a crack at Indy I can see a female championship down the road, which would obviously require a male championship as well to avoid any inference that women are incapable of winning the championship... err... the overall championship, that is.

[ICWS]

"Okay, let's pretend they are a football league. No playoffs necessary. The team that wins the most games will be declared the "champion". Perfect! Ya know what. Let's declare the team that wins most games on artificial turf a "champion!" Well, not "the" champion, but a champion.. of sorts. Well, not of sorts because they won the artificial turf championship. They are "Champions!" Let us also declare the team that wins the most games on natural turf a "champion." And let's make the first year team with the most wins a "rookie of the year...champion" - Marbles

By football do you mean association football (soccer)? If so that's even more confusing than auto racing. A team in England, Manchester United for example, could potentially win 4 championships in the same season: English Premier League, FA Cup, Carling Cup and the UEFA Champions League (and what if one of the players on Man Utd. also competes for their country at the Olympics or the World Cup if one of those events occur in the same year. That's another title to win in the same year). That would be far more confusing than this IndyCar "3 titles in one season" idea. People just need look at the Indy 500, the oval championship and the road/street championship as bonus awards and the IndyCar title as the ultimate award; it seems to me that anyone who is confused by this idea is probably analyzing this idea too hard.

Look at the NBA for example. LeBron James can win all the bonus awards he can (All-Star Game MVP, Scoring Title, Defensive Player of the Year, Regular Season MVP, etc.) but if his team doesn't win the ultimate prize, the NBA Finals Championship, he would be dissapointed with his season because he didn't achieve his main goal. It's simple as that.

[px400r]

Seriously guys, is it really that complicated?

You really think potential fans won't be interested in Indycar racing because they can't understand that some guy gets a trophy because he did the best at oval tracks, even though he didn't win the overall championship? How many people has the "rookie of the year standings" left confused & drooling on the floor?

The National Football League has conference champions, division champions, and then the Super Bowl winner (league champion). How could anyone follow it all? NCAA men's basketball has regular season conference champions, conference tournament champions, NIT champions, and the NCAA Tournament championship! Surely none of you understand all that!

It's not a valid comparison. Not even close. For those other sports, teams have their own schedules and are grouped into divisions and conferences. They also play one team at a time.

IndyCar (and other motorsport series) are not organized that way. There is only one schedule for all teams and everyone competes against everyone else at the same time.

Besides, I thought the idea of the champion was the driver who did the best over the course of the season on all types of tracks. So why single out oval and road course drivers?

[Lousada]

Even Indycar thinks this idea is stupid. They make no mention of the various championships on their website.



By football do you mean association football (soccer)? If so that's even more confusing than auto racing. A team in England, Manchester United for example, could potentially win 4 championships in the same season: English Premier League, FA Cup, Carling Cup and the UEFA Champions League (and what if one of the players on Man Utd. also competes for their country at the Olympics or the World Cup if one of those events occur in the same year. That's another title to win in the same year). That would be far more confusing than this IndyCar "3 titles in one season" idea. People just need look at the Indy 500, the oval championship and the road/street championship as bonus awards and the IndyCar title as the ultimate award; it seems to me that anyone who is confused by this idea is probably analyzing this idea too hard.

Your analogy is flawed. In Indycar one race now counts for multiple championships. In Football (Soccer for you...) and any other teamsports I can think of, one match counts for one championship.


Look at the NBA for example. LeBron James can win all the bonus awards he can (All-Star Game MVP, Scoring Title, Defensive Player of the Year, Regular Season MVP, etc.) but if his team doesn't win the ultimate prize, the NBA Finals Championship, he would be dissapointed with his season because he didn't achieve his main goal. It's simple as that.

This is also flawed because you fail to understand the difference between individual and team performance.

[Anubis]

How do the various classes in ALMS award points? On an individual race basis, would a GT car beating an LMP car get "race" points, or just be awarded the class win regardless of beating other cars in the higher class? I can see some merit in the idea, as it might encourage extra entries, and I'm sure we're all for bigger fields as long as they aren't basket case no hopers. Might even be a useful way of encouraging smaller outfits to step up without needing funds for the whole season. Do a road/oval season as a stepping stone for a full entry the following year.

[Mark in Oshawa]

How do the various classes in ALMS award points? On an individual race basis, would a GT car beating an LMP car get "race" points, or just be awarded the class win regardless of beating other cars in the higher class? I can see some merit in the idea, as it might encourage extra entries, and I'm sure we're all for bigger fields as long as they aren't basket case no hopers. Might even be a useful way of encouraging smaller outfits to step up without needing funds for the whole season. Do a road/oval season as a stepping stone for a full entry the following year.
ALMS gives points out to each class as if they were competing by themselves.

So if you are first in class, you get points based on being first. There are no points for beating other classes or for your overall finish. So you have champions at the end of the year, one for each class. There is no extra points for a GT car finishing ahead of a prototype. Grand AM does it the same way, class points for a class championship. The only interaction is dealing with the classes on the track, and if you win the overall race, then if you are from a lesser class, you really look good.

So ok, that explained, how well does that really work? Sportscar fans are used to it, but ALMS isn't drawing better than the IRL.

I dont see this splitting of the series as anything more than a sideshow and a distraction.

[ICWS]

"Even Indycar thinks this idea is stupid. They make no mention of the various championships on their website". - Lousada


IndyCar may be doing this in order to avoid confusing fans. Or they are proving that neither the oval or road/street championship are the main championship.


"Your analogy is flawed. In Indycar one race now counts for multiple championships. In Football (Soccer for you...) and any other teamsports I can think of, one match counts for one championship". - Lousada


I thought the multiple championships in football are related to each other in some fashion? For example, if Barcelona wins La Liga then that helps their chances of doing good in the Champions League, right? The teams that finish poorly in La Liga don't get to qualify for the Champions League. But if Barcelona were to finish 3rd in La Liga, they can still qualify and win the Champions League; if that were to happen you would think if they were good enough to beat the best European teams they would automatically be the best team in Spain's Premier League, but that is not always the case. Barcelona wouldn't just need to win their country's league in order to prove they're the team to beat for the main prize (Champions League).

The point is that even though IndyCar's two bonus championships and the Indy 500 are connected to the regular season, being good in just one of those championsips doesn't automatcally mean you're going to be the all-around champion. A driver can't be only good at one type of track; they need to be among the top drivers on both types of circuits in order to have a chance at the all-around championship.



"This is also flawed because you fail to understand the difference between individual and team performance". - Lousada

Ok, here's a different comparison (for any tennis fans that may be here): Serena and Nadal can have wins at the Grand Slam tournaments (Australian, French, Wimbledon, U.S.) but if they don't complete a full season or have early exits in the other tournaments (Indian Wells, Miami, Rome, etc.) their ranking will be affected. If you don't believe me then explain how Serena could be lower in the rankings (not this year, but not too long ago) behind players like Safina and Jankovic when these players have yet to win any one of the grand slam tournaments? How come Federer's #1 ranking could've been challenged earlier this year despite having 16 grand slams wins? How do #4: Nadal, #5: Del Potro and #8: Roddick (a combined 8 grand slams) be ranked lower than #2: Djokovic and #3: Murray (a combined 1 grand slam)? Simple, the higher ranked (but non-grand slam winning) players usually complete entire seasons, have consistent results at most of the tournaments they play (and on different surfaces), and take advantage of the Serenas and Nadals of the sport for not completing full seasons and not taking these other tournaments seriously (injuries could be a factor in this case).

Note: In case any of you didn't know, the current year's tennis rankings can be affected by rankings from previous years.

[Lousada]

IndyCar may be doing this in order to avoid confusing fans. Or they are proving that neither the oval or road/street championship are the main championship.

So you just admitted it is confusing fans. If fans can't figure it out how can casual viewers? Proving they are nothing with this.




I thought the multiple championships in football are related to each other in some fashion? For example, if Barcelona wins La Liga then that helps their chances of doing good in the Champions League, right? The teams that finish poorly in La Liga don't get to qualify for the Champions League. But if Barcelona were to finish 3rd in La Liga, they can still qualify and win the Champions League; if that were to happen you would think if they were good enough to beat the best European teams they would automatically be the best team in Spain's Premier League, but that is not always the case. Barcelona wouldn't just need to win their country's league in order to prove they're the team to beat for the main prize (Champions League).
Yes, your position in the championship affects your qualifying position for one of the European Cups the next year. The point is: a league match is a league match, a cup match is a cup match and a European match is a European match. To use this analogy on Indycar: the league match at Kansas was at the same time a cup match for the ovaltrophy. This is what is confusing and pointless.


The point is that even though IndyCar's two bonus championships and the Indy 500 are connected to the regular season, being good in just one of those championsips doesn't automatcally mean you're going to be the all-around champion. A driver can't be only good at one type of track; they need to be among the top drivers on both types of circuits in order to have a chance at the all-around championship.

Which is exactly my gripe. Since you need to be good at both types to challenge for the overall championship and since the schedule is still (almost) 50/50, the drivers going for the overall championship will be on top of both sub-championships.
You already established that the overall championship is the main goal. What do the subchampionships bring other than another opportunity to spin and confuse??


Ok, here's a different comparison (for any tennis fans that may be here): Serena and Nadal can have wins at the Grand Slam tournaments (Australian, French, Wimbledon, U.S.) but if they don't complete a full season or have early exits in the other tournaments (Indian Wells, Miami, Rome, etc.) their ranking will be affected. If you don't believe me then explain how Serena could be lower in the rankings (not this year, but not too long ago) behind players like Safina and Jankovic when these players have yet to win any one of the grand slam tournaments? Why can Federer's #1 ranking be challenged this year despite having 15 grand slams wins? How do Nadal, Del Potro and Roddick (a combined 8 grand slams) be ranked lower than Djokovic and Murray (a combined 1 grand slam)? Simple, the higher ranked (but non-grand slam winning) players usually complete entire seasons, have consistent results at most of the tournaments they play, and take advantage of the Serenas and Nadals of the sport for not taking these other tournaments seriously and sometimes not compete at all (injuries could be a factor in this case).

Note: In case any of you didn't know, tennis rankings are affected by previous years' rankings.

This makes even less sense. The tennis world ranking is not a championship and does not have a beginning or an end. I do not understand how this relates to these various trophies in Indycar?

[ICWS]

"So you just admitted it is confusing fans. If fans can't figure it out how can casual viewers? Proving they are nothing with this"


A: Sorry, I didn't mean confusing current fans of the series; I meant new fans. Still, I don't see what the big fuss is about this idea.



"Yes, your position in the championship affects your qualifying position for one of the European Cups the next year. The point is: a league match is a league match, a cup match is a cup match and a European match is a European match. To use this analogy on Indycar: the league match at Kansas was at the same time a cup match for the ovaltrophy. This is what is confusing and pointless.

"Which is exactly my gripe. Since you need to be good at both types to challenge for the overall championship and since the schedule is still (almost) 50/50, the drivers going for the overall championship will be on top of both sub-championships.
You already established that the overall championship is the main goal. What do the subchampionships bring other than another opportunity to spin and confuse??"

A: The bonus championships are something to give the smaller teams (who struggle against Penske, Ganassi and Andretti) something to shoot for, although it seems only 5 drivers (Helio, Dario, Dixon, Power, Briscoe) are capable of winning the bonus championships and the overall championship. The bonus championships also gives some acknowledgement for someone like Danica (ovals) or Hunter-Reay (road courses) who are really good at one type of race track but struggle at the other kind.


"This makes even less sense. The tennis world ranking is not a championship and does not have a beginning or an end. I do not understand how this relates to these various trophies in Indycar?"

A: Both the ATP and WTA award "player of the year" trophies to the highest ranking male and female players at the end of the year.

[ICWS]

With 4 women taking a crack at Indy I can see a female championship down the road, which would obviously require a male championship as well to avoid any inference that women are incapable of winning the championship... err... the overall championship, that is.

If women somehow make up close to half of the field, then IndyCar could come up with a women's championship (along with a men's championship and a co-ed championship). That's the point of the two bonus championships; ovals and road/street courses are almost split evenly. There are many other options for bonus championships: asphalt and concrete, United States and International, etc.; as long as there is an overall championship then these bonus championships are ok.

[harvick#1]

If women somehow make up close to half of the field, then IndyCar could come up with a women's championship (along with a men's championship and a co-ed championship). That's the point of the two bonus championships; ovals and road/street courses are almost split evenly. There are many other options for bonus championships: asphalt and concrete, United States and International, etc.; as long as there is an overall championship then these bonus championships are ok.

will there be a "everyone gets a trophy" too.

[anthonyvop]

If women somehow make up close to half of the field, then IndyCar could come up with a women's championship

We have enough for that.

Patrick, Simona, Sarah, Milka and Wheldon.


Sorry Dan, Couldn't resist.

[ICWS]

will there be a "everyone gets a trophy" too.

Sure, why not!? Maybe we can convince the IndyCar series to award trophies to autoracing1.com forum members. One trophy goes to whoever creates the most IndyCar posts and another one goes to the member who has the most replies to any post in the Indycar section.

I hope that a women's championship doesn't have to be created, even though the series may be tempted to do so if they bring in more female drivers. Even though most female drivers struggle against men, there is not too many factors that prevent women from competing against male drivers (fitness, strength, and conquering the fear of driving fast while being inches away from other cars seem to be the female drivers' main problems). Heck, some of the women have advantages (cough... weight advantage... cough) over male drivers. If de Silvestro won the women's title, for example, that would be indicating that she is a great race car driver... for a woman.

[px400r]

If women somehow make up close to half of the field, then IndyCar could come up with a women's championship (along with a men's championship and a co-ed championship). That's the point of the two bonus championships; ovals and road/street courses are almost split evenly. There are many other options for bonus championships: asphalt and concrete, United States and International, etc.; as long as there is an overall championship then these bonus championships are ok.

Then why not have a championship for each letter of the alphabet? That way, Danica can win the "P" driver's championship.

[Mark in Oshawa]

We have enough for that.

Patrick, Simona, Sarah, Milka and Wheldon.


Sorry Dan, Couldn't resist.

It might explain why Dan was so catty with Danica...meow!!

[ICWS]

Then why not have a championship for each letter of the alphabet? That way, Danica can win the "P" driver's championship.

Once again, if there are an even number of something in a category, sure. The alphabet championship, however, would most require drivers to change their surnames, though. If there's a "p" championship, the other one could a "d" championship, for example. The "P" lineup could be: D. Patrick and W. Power, as well as R. Priscoe, D. Pheldon, H. Pastroneves, D. Pranchitti, etc. The "D" could be: M. Duno, S. Dixon, etc.

[ICWS]

Seriously, this fear, panic, concern, whatever you want to call it about this 3 championships in one idea seems irrational. There's not much that is complicated about it. The alleged championships that some of you think will happen are just simply absurd (there won't be a championship for best driver with a last name starting with "P", there won't be a trophy for best asphalt driver or best concrete driver, there won't be a ladies' championship, etc.). It seems to me that several of you are over-analyzing and exaggerating the negatives of this concept.

This fear is similar to how some folks irrationally fear that allowing gay marriage in the U.S. will trigger an allowance for other people to marry trees, dolphins, tractors, beer cans, furniture, stop signs, etc.

[px400r]

Seriously, this fear, panic, concern, whatever you want to call it about this 3 championships in one idea seems irrational. There's not much that is complicated about it. The alleged championships that some of you think will happen are just simply absurd (there won't be a championship for best driver with a last name starting with "P", there won't be a trophy for best asphalt driver or best concrete driver, there won't be a ladies' championship, etc.). It seems to me that several of you are over-analyzing and exaggerating the negatives of this concept.

This fear is similar to how some folks irrationally fear that allowing gay marriage in the U.S. will trigger an allowance for other people to marry trees, dolphins, tractors, beer cans, furniture, stop signs, etc.

There is no fear among us- only exasperation. Once upon a time, AOWR was a viable motorsport category that truly required skill on a variety of tracks and did not need any gimmicks. It made a great deal out of being successful on superspeedways, short tracks, road courses, and street circuits. I repeat, it did not need any gimmicks.

IMO, the separate championships is a misguided attempt to address the schism between the split (and very small) fan base. It's much easier to crown two new champions than it is to fix the real problems.

[garyshell]

IMO, the separate championships is a misguided attempt to address the schism between the split (and very small) fan base. It's much easier to crown two new champions than it is to fix the real problems.


Which part of Randy's statement didn't you understand? He made it perfectly clear that the idea was only to highlight the track diversity of the series. As ICWS said there are folks here that are over analyzing this way beyond what it is.

Gary

[Scotty G.]

IMO, the separate championships is a misguided attempt to address the schism between the split (and very small) fan base. It's much easier to crown two new champions than it is to fix the real problems.

Real problem solving takes brains and common sense.

Something that very few in this sport have had in the past 25 years. Something that still seems to be in short supply.

Its why Bernard sticks out so much. He looks like a ripping genius compared to most of these bumbling fools (which takes into account leaders, owners, sponsors, engine folks, chassis folks, rules folks and promoters). What a bunch of morons, Bernard has to try and govern. :(

[e2mtt]

There is no fear among us- only exasperation. Once upon a time, AOWR was a viable motorsport category that truly required skill on a variety of tracks and did not need any gimmicks. It made a great deal out of being successful on superspeedways, short tracks, road courses, and street circuits. I repeat, it did not need any gimmicks.

IMO, the separate championships is a misguided attempt to address the schism between the split (and very small) fan base. It's much easier to crown two new champions than it is to fix the real problems.

And your solution to "fix the real problem" is to get rid of the fans who don't properly appreciate the series the way it is right now?

[e2mtt]

Real problem solving takes brains and common sense.

Something that very few in this sport have had in the past 25 years. Something that still seems to be in short supply.

Its why Bernard sticks out so much. He looks like a ripping genius compared to most of these bumbling fools (which takes into account leaders, owners, sponsors, engine folks, chassis folks, rules folks and promoters). What a bunch of morons, Bernard has to try and govern. :(

haha great line. "ripping genius" indeed!

[px400r]

And your solution to "fix the real problem" is to get rid of the fans who don't properly appreciate the series the way it is right now?

The real problem is that Indy Car racing is a niche sport on a niche cable network, with only two truly competitive teams, and very little support from the industry.

Yeah- separate oval and road course championships will fix those.

[px400r]

Which part of Randy's statement didn't you understand? He made it perfectly clear that the idea was only to highlight the track diversity of the series. As ICWS said there are folks here that are over analyzing this way beyond what it is.

Gary

It used to be about the skill of the drivers because of the diversity of the tracks on which they had to compete.

So now we would rather highlight the diversity of the tracks?

[garyshell]

Which part of Randy's statement didn't you understand? He made it perfectly clear that the idea was only to highlight the track diversity of the series. As ICWS said there are folks here that are over analyzing this way beyond what it is.

Gary


It used to be about the skill of the drivers because of the diversity of the tracks on which they had to compete.

So now we would rather highlight the diversity of the tracks?


Thank you Mr. Literal. But let me remind you they are awarding the championships to the DRIVERS not the tracks. The idea of course is to highlight the DRIVERS, but you knew that already.

Gary

[px400r]

Thank you Mr. Literal. But let me remind you they are awarding the championships to the DRIVERS not the tracks. The idea of course is to highlight the DRIVERS, but you knew that already.

Gary

I knew that the best driver has to do well on street circuits, road courses, and ovals. That's how they can claim to be the "best."

Awarding separate championships for different types of tracks only highlights the fact that a driver isn't competitive on the other types.

But you knew that as well.

[garyshell]

Awarding separate championships for different types of tracks only highlights the fact that a driver isn't competitive on the other types.

No it doesn't, it only shows the driver wasn't as competitive as the driver who won. It doesn't prove the driver wasn't competitive. That's totally dependent on the point spread. But who's to say that the series champ won't win one or both of the track type championships as well?

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

No it doesn't, it only shows the driver wasn't as competitive as the driver who won. It doesn't prove the driver wasn't competitive. That's totally dependent on the point spread. But who's to say that the series champ won't win one or both of the track type championships as well?

Gary
I would suggest that the winner most likely will....or will finish second in both....

[px400r]

I would suggest that the winner most likely will....or will finish second in both....

Then it kind of takes away from his accomplishments as the real champion, doesn't it? Now the overall champion has to share it with two other "champions."

[the bro]

Why don't they call these Awards instead of championships, that way it doesn't take away from the overall championship.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Why don't they call these Awards instead of championships, that way it doesn't take away from the overall championship.

I think serious race fans do see it this way....it is how the press portrays this is what will determine things. Time will tell if if this idea has merit or not...

[SarahFan]

Why don't they call these Awards instead of championships, that way it doesn't take away from the overall championship.

I like it.... perhaps its not too late for a subtle change

[Mark in Oshawa]

I like it.... perhaps its not too late for a subtle change

Knowing how Bernard has reacted to what is going on so far, he would be very likely interested in doing so...

[SarahFan]

Knowing how Bernard has reacted to what is going on so far, he would be very likely interested in doing so...


i agree... you wanna give him a ring or should I

[garyshell]

Ken, put the bug in Cavin's ear. He is very accessible and has a direct link to Randy.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ken, put the bug in Cavin's ear. He is very accessible and has a direct link to Randy.

Gary

Cavin claims to be, but Robin Miller says he talks to Bernard all the time.....lol

BOTH have more pull than I do....lol...

[px400r]

No it doesn't, it only shows the driver wasn't as competitive as the driver who won. It doesn't prove the driver wasn't competitive. That's totally dependent on the point spread. But who's to say that the series champ won't win one or both of the track type championships as well?

Gary

With the dominance of Penske and Ganassi, I expect that to happen- which makes the separate road and oval "championships" redundant.

[garyshell]

With the dominance of Penske and Ganassi, I expect that to happen- which makes the separate road and oval "championships" redundant.


It may very well make them redundant, however that does not negate their purpose i.e. a marketing scheme to publicize the unique diversity the series has. That's all it ever was intended to be. And yet all the folks who bemoan the lack of promotion, the lack of publicity etc. etc. are the same ones poo pooing this idea

Gary

[px400r]

It may very well make them redundant, however that does not negate their purpose i.e. a marketing scheme to publicize the unique diversity the series has. That's all it ever was intended to be. And yet all the folks who bemoan the lack of promotion, the lack of publicity etc. etc. are the same ones poo pooing this idea

Gary

Because it's a terrible idea. I'd prefer if the focus was on the diverse skills required of the driver, rather than the diversity of the tracks.

But I do agree that this is nothing more than a scheme.

[NaBUru38]

a marketing scheme to publicize the unique diversity the series has

That's exactly what this is. People who ignore Indy car racing outside the Month of May and hear "The Mario Andretti Trophy has been awarded to XXX for scoring most points in the nine road/street courses of the 2010 IndyCar Series season" will think "hey, they actually race that many times outside ovals???"

[garyshell]

Because it's a terrible idea. I'd prefer if the focus was on the diverse skills required of the driver, rather than the diversity of the tracks.

But I do agree that this is nothing more than a scheme.


Ok then what's YOUR idea of a good marketing sceheme to play up the diversity? You're so quick to deem something terrible, without offering any sort of alternative.

Gary

[px400r]

Ok then what's YOUR idea of a good marketing sceheme to play up the diversity? You're so quick to deem something terrible, without offering any sort of alternative.

Gary

Here's the alternative, which was what people around here have been harping on for a long time.

Instead of gimmicks, focus on the on track product. The cars are ugly and slow. The competition is between Penske and Ganassi. The most recognizable driver is a mid-pack runner at best. And while the television production is probably the best it has ever been, it's mostly on a niche cable channel.

So instead of awarding separate oval and road course championships, find a way to make more teams and drivers competitive against the big two. At this point, I don't care how it's done. Use a lead trophy if you have to. But right now, there's very little suspense during the race (especially on the ovals).

Once you have more drivers winning, start promoting them. Get them in more commercials. Danica Patrick gets a lot of attention on a skimpy resume, why can't the true champions of the sport get the same attention? It didn't used to be that way.

This sport needs winners with interesting stories to tell. Look at professional boxing. It's been declining and relegated to pay-per-view for it's "biggest" events. It now has to share the pie with ultimate fighting.

But in the past couple of years it's had a bit of a resurgence with personalities like Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather Jr. Winners with stories. Good guy versus bad guy. No separate championships for lefties and righties either.

Now while I'd like to see better looking cars, that's not absolutely necessary as long as the on track product is good. At the moment, the most important attribute for any new car is a much lowered cost of ownership (provided it promotes competition).

Finally and most obvious, get the sport back on a major network and/or cable outlet. It makes no sense to fix the sport only to have a limited reach. Maybe a good start is to make an edited 2 hour version of each event available on the web site or on demand.

I realize that none of this will be easy or cheap. That's my biggest gripe about the separate oval/road championships. They are gimmicks that are easy and cheap to implement but doesn't address the real problems facing the sport.

And yes, these suggestions are not new. They have been discussed at length long before this thread started.

[Bob Riebe]

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100427/SPORTS0107/4270338/1004/SPORTS/IndyCar-to-recognize-oval-road-overall-titlists

Opinion?
This sort of moronic move, is what led to USAC becoming irrelevant.

[anthonyvop]

This sort of moronic move, is what led to USAC becoming irrelevant.

USAC is the reason why USAC became irrelevant.

[veeten]

USAC is the reason why USAC became irrelevant.

Exactly. Their efforts to keep the Silver/Gold Crown Championship relevant to Indy is the main reason for this, but the problem still remains: you will continue to have american-born drivers having a hard time with road racing while their foreign-born competitors will be getting better at ovals. No amount of 'track specific' awards will change that, no matter whom you name them after.

[Bob Riebe]

USAC is the reason why USAC became irrelevant.
That is an obtuse statement, sorta like saying-- the Indianapolis 500, is the reason, the Indianapolis 500, has become a pathetic shadow.

[Bob Riebe]

Exactly. Their efforts to keep the Silver/Gold Crown Championship relevant to Indy is the main reason for this, but the problem still remains: you will continue to have american-born drivers having a hard time with road racing while their foreign-born competitors will be getting better at ovals. No amount of 'track specific' awards will change that, no matter whom you name them after.
If you read the printed article from another thread, the article says your reason is simply wrong as a whole, and the gent who wrote was feet on the ground present when things collapsed.
USAC is the one who deliberately separated the supposed Gold and Silver crowns, severing drivers from having a reason to HAVE TO drive the pavement races and dirt races.

[Mark in Oshawa]

USAC is the reason why USAC became irrelevant.

They did it to themselves in 78, and when given a second chance, they have their "saviour" to give them relevence dump them again when they messed up the race in Texas. In short...USAC is the reason they are not in the sanctioning business...

[Bob Riebe]

They did it to themselves in 78, and when given a second chance, they have their "saviour" to give them relevence dump them again when they messed up the race in Texas. In short...USAC is the reason they are not in the sanctioning business...
In the same manner CART did it to themselve; but this articleL http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/cup/columns/story?columnist=hinton_ed&id=5195237&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter takes it beyond the simpleton obvious statement level and tells a true story.

To say "USAC did it to themselves" reminds me of Eki think.

The death of the BOD, is the reason that CART survived as USAC leadership was all dead.

[Mark in Oshawa]

In the same manner CART did it to themselve; but this articleL http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/cup/columns/story?columnist=hinton_ed&id=5195237&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter takes it beyond the simpleton obvious statement level and tells a true story.

To say "USAC did it to themselves" reminds me of Eki think.

The death of the BOD, is the reason that CART survived as USAC leadership was all dead.

Bob....Tony handed them the IRL to run for him, and they blew it. Simple as that. They lost track of the winner in Texas and it was shown on national TV what happens when AJ Foyt thinks he has won.....

Scoring and timing the race are really pretty simple. I did it for 23 years..and what USAC did in that one event crystalized why CART lost faith in their stewardship of the sport, and Tony did also....so spare me the defense of the United States Auto Club.

[Bob Riebe]

Bob....Tony handed them the IRL to run for him, and they blew it. Simple as that. They lost track of the winner in Texas and it was shown on national TV what happens when AJ Foyt thinks he has won.....

Scoring and timing the race are really npretty simple. I did it for 23 years..and what USAC did in that one event crystalized why CART lost faith in their stewardship of the sport, and Tony did also....so spare me the defense of the United States Auto Club.

You are twenty years beyond what I was talking about, try to stay with the conversation. By that time USAC was just a shadow of what it once was.

That incident, and its content, has/had NOTHING to do with why CART existed, at ANY time or manner.

It has been stated many time the death of that BOD, which took USAC to England, and as was written in Autoweek, was good enough to also allow USAC stock cars to challenge NASCAR for quality stock car racing, was the only reason CART was not swept away quickly.
The people who replaced them were mostly clue-less.

[NaBUru38]

you will continue to have american-born drivers having a hard time with road racing while their foreign-born competitors will be getting better at ovals

Of course, because car racers from all over the world drive open-wheelers, but only North Americans drive those ugly stock cars. That's why you find so few foreigners in Nascar and so many foreigners in IndyCar. Some of the best drivers of the world make it to IndyCar - that should be a compliment to Americans who make it too.

[anthonyvop]

That is an obtuse statement, sorta like saying-- the Indianapolis 500, is the reason, the Indianapolis 500, has become a pathetic shadow.

Exactly.

[Mark in Oshawa]

You are twenty years beyond what I was talking about, try to stay with the conversation. By that time USAC was just a shadow of what it once was.

That incident, and its content, has/had NOTHING to do with why CART existed, at ANY time or manner.

It has been stated many time the death of that BOD, which took USAC to England, and as was written in Autoweek, was good enough to also allow USAC stock cars to challenge NASCAR for quality stock car racing, was the only reason CART was not swept away quickly.
The people who replaced them were mostly clue-less.

CART management clueless? Maybe in a world where they couldn't afford to make the mistakes they did. If they were clueless, so was Tony. As for USAC, I was talking about how they were handed the keys to run the series and rewrite the "wrong" that was perpetrated by that rotten Gurney and his buddies and promptly in 2 years made such a hash of things that they proved why they were outwitted the first time.

[Bob Riebe]

CART management clueless? Maybe in a world where they couldn't afford to make the mistakes they did. If they were clueless, so was Tony. As for USAC, I was talking about how they were handed the keys to run the series and rewrite the "wrong" that was perpetrated by that rotten Gurney and his buddies and promptly in 2 years made such a hash of things that they proved why they were outwitted the first time.
USAC was given nothing, other than timing and scoring.
What they had with IRL, was nothing compared to what they once were.
They would RUN nothing, George ran the show and by creating CART II, he has come very close to running it into the ground.

George had Indy and his new races; CART had all that USAC had built since the end of AAA; to say that CART was not a greater failure than George is not logical.
Of course, had CART never come to be, does not mean open wheel racing would not be the joke it is now anyway, but that is pure speculation.

[px400r]

George had Indy and his new races; CART had all that USAC had built since the end of AAA; to say that CART was not a greater failure than George is not logical.


Yeah- as if CART inherited Long Beach and all the other road races from USAC. Tony George's venture has never seen a profit or the kind of commercial success CART had in the 80's and 90's.

CART might have imploded, but at least it made money for it's owners.

To say that George was a greater success than CART is delusional.

[garyshell]

To say that George was a greater success than CART is delusional.

All in how you measure success. He was greater success in one sense as he was the last man standing, at least until his sister's knee capped him. Not how you or I would measure success, but clearly he and others would.

Gary

[Bob Riebe]

To say that George was a greater success than CART is delusional.
CART is long dead; George, or at least the IRL is still running.

Your idea of success is perverse.

The fact that automotive companies do not give a damn about open wheel racing, save sprint cars where Detroit still produces engines just for that show, in this point, the IRL is, at present, just as clueless as CART was.
That may be what kills U.S. open wheel racing, and if it survives, leaves Indy as a stand alone race.
Of course the short track boys once had a growing- stand alone- super race at Phoenix, and that is now dead so....

[px400r]

CART is long dead; George, or at least the IRL is still running.

Your idea of success is perverse.



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