Discontent at Ferrari?

[Retro Formula 1]

Nothing concrete to base this on, apart from denials of a rift from Luca, Fernando and Felipe.

The car is obviously a strong contender but the drivers and management decisions are letting Ferrari down at the moment.

Now, I'm not saying Luca, Fernando and Felipe are covering up an element of disquiet but I would be interested to know what the Tifosi feel about this incompetence, so reminiscent of the pre-Schumacher days.

[pino]

Engine reliability is the only problem for Ferrari at the moment, all the rest is media speculation. At Ferrari they are all united (as never before) to achieve best results, believe me ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

With rumours (unsubstantiated) of Kubica joining Ferrari, and of there being an 'edge' between Massa and Alonso I wonder how Massa will respond.

Yes they're rumours, yes they're (as yet) unfounded, but I've always suspected that Felipe needs to know he has the full support of the team at all times. There was no doubt about that after his accident and subsequent recovery, but all this kind of talk may unsettle him somewhat.

[Mia 01]

It seems likely that either Alonso or Massa will leave Ferrari at the end of this year.

[Rodster]

It seems likely that either Alonso or Massa will leave Ferrari at the end of this year.

I don't think either will leave Ferrari and here's why I feel that way. Alonso has the upper hand and is by far the better of the two in fact Alonso has shown why he's the best driver on the grid in the last four races especially driving a broken car and with the false start last week.

If Massa goes which would make the most logic choice his replacement is Kubica. He's a taller driver so Ferrari has to modify his car whereas Massa and Alonso share similar heights.

While it's been reported Kubica and Alonso are good friends, Kubica is IMO and those of others a top 5-7 driver. He has the skill to beat Fernando. The only thing that helps Fernando is the fire and killer instinct to win. Sterling Moss chose Fernando and Hamilton as just a few of the drivers on the grid who he classifies as racers and not drivers.

I think Ferrari should think long and hard and keep both of the current drivers because Felipe is as good as any other driver on the grid. The only thing he lacks is what Fernando has and that's a killer instinct.

[veeten]

C'mon folks, you mean to tell me that many of you didn't see this coming, especially when Alonso signed on the dotted line?

Up next, handbags at 20 paces... ;)

[pino]

With rumours (unsubstantiated) of Kubica joining Ferrari, and of there being an 'edge' between Massa and Alonso I wonder how Massa will respond.

Yes they're rumours, yes they're (as yet) unfounded, but I've always suspected that Felipe needs to know he has the full support of the team at all times. There was no doubt about that after his accident and subsequent recovery, but all this kind of talk may unsettle him somewhat.

Alonso has a long deal with Ferrari and Massa very soon will renew his contract so no place for Kubica. If and when the 3rd car arrives it will be for Valentino ;)

[SGWilko]

C'mon folks, you mean to tell me that many of you didn't see this coming, especially when Alonso signed on the dotted line?

Up next, handbags at 20 paces... ;)

Well, I guess the real truth about Fernando will come out before long if this does become an issue.

Be a shame if Fred had all the unreliability this year, wouldn't it.... ;)

[quote="ArrowsFA1"]

And you know of a driver that doesn't?

Apart from Niki Lauda I can't think of one past or present who didn't.

[SGWilko]

And you know of a driver that doesn't?

Apart from Niki Lauda I can't think of one past or present who didn't.

There's having the full support of your team (and why would a team pay a driver millions to not support him?) and then there is taking the piss out of your team.

Fred's backhanded comments to Renault in his second championship year, his second childhood throwing toys out the pram at McLaren, and now sticking two fingers up at Massa.

What a guy.....

[Firstgear]

If and when the 3rd car arrives it will be for Valentino ;)
You've given up on Fisi?

[driveace]

I feel that Fillipe will be on his way at the end of the season,maybe talking out of school will not help his cause!
I feel fernando is very well thought of and can set cars up which ,Fillipe is probably not as good at,remember Fernando was the guy that sorted the Mac out in 2008 testing.He said he got the Mac 6/ 10s faster

[SGWilko]

I feel that Fillipe will be on his way at the end of the season,maybe talking out of school will not help his cause!
I feel fernando is very well thought of and can set cars up which ,Fillipe is probably not as good at,remember Fernando was the guy that sorted the Mac out in 2008 testing.He said he got the Mac 6/ 10s faster

Oh yes, the infamous 6/10ths.

[UltimateDanGTR]

there has been alot of rumours about rifts in ferrari, obviously.

My view is things are not as bad as the media make out, things might not be as great as the Todt-Schumi-Brawn era, but Ferrari are a team of professionals and any problems will be settled in the right manner, IMO.

unfortunatly for their competitors :D

[SGWilko]

things are not as bad as the media make out,

They never are - but harmony peace and love does not sell many papers these days.

Might up the distribution numbers for the Peoples Friend though......

[fandango]

I imagine Felipe wasn't very happy about Alonso overtaking him, but it's not inconceivable that he would have done exactly the same to Alonso had their positions been reversed.

For all the talk that goes on about the "Latin Temperament" in English language press and on here, it's seems that it's still completely misunderstood. I'll have a go at explaining how it works, as I see it.

Latin people have a looser fuse. They let rip and curse you to high heaven with a lot less provocation than Northern Europeans. But then, and here's the bit the people don't seem to get, it's over. Finished. Out of their system. No necessity for festering resentment or high powered rifles in shopping malls type reactions.

I'm sure Massa was cursing Alonso while he was waiting for his pitstop, but I would say it was all over by the next lap.

Personally, I like Alonso because he speaks his mind. If his car is crap he says so, knowing his team is doing everything they can to remedy things. Because his team knows that he will get the best out of the car, which is his job, they don't need him to say they're great when they're not.

[ioan]

With rumours (unsubstantiated) of Kubica joining Ferrari, and of there being an 'edge' between Massa and Alonso I wonder how Massa will respond.

Yes they're rumours, yes they're (as yet) unfounded, but I've always suspected that Felipe needs to know he has the full support of the team at all times. There was no doubt about that after his accident and subsequent recovery, but all this kind of talk may unsettle him somewhat.

Are you a motorsport journalist? If not you should consider a career in that domain. :p

[ioan]

...remember Fernando was the guy that sorted the Mac out in 2008 testing.He said he got the Mac 6/ 10s faster

And still somehow Hamilton was beating him, strange eh?!

Let's make one thing clear, none of the guys out there is able to better the other ones about 0.6 seconds / whatever Alonso wants, in any field.

0.2-0.3 is the maximum IMO.

[Dzeidzei]

And still somehow Hamilton was beating him, strange eh?!

Let's make one thing clear, none of the guys out there is able to better the other ones about 0.6 seconds / whatever Alonso wants, in any field.

0.2-0.3 is the maximum IMO.

Your opinion counts to nothing. Nico beat MS 0,7 secs in quali and around 1 sec/lap during the China GP (thats 10 tenths lap after lap after lap). Either Nico is truly a god, or MS is in the wrong series. Id go for the latter.

[donKey jote]

But then, and here's the bit the people don't seem to get, it's over. Finished. Out of their system. No necessity for festering resentment or high powered rifles in shopping malls type reactions.

yep you´ve pretty much sussed it :up:

[Firstgear]

Latin people have a looser fuse. They let rip and curse you to high heaven with a lot less provocation than Northern Europeans. But then, and here's the bit the people don't seem to get, it's over. Finished. Out of their system.

Sounds very much like the old Montoya line.

“If you have a problem with what I'm doing, talk to me, get it all out, then shut up."

[Firstgear]

Your opinion counts to nothing. Nico beat MS 0,7 secs in quali and around 1 sec/lap during the China GP (thats 10 tenths lap after lap after lap). Either Nico is truly a god, or MS is in the wrong series. Id go for the latter.

But the old (or make that young) MS (the one with illegal TC, lap dog, and team with Rule veto power) would be right in that 0.2-0.3 range. :p

[pino]

You've given up on Fisi?

Nope but today Luca told Sky Italy, that his dream would be to see Valentino on the 3rd Ferrari.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think there is lots of discontent at Ferrari when they are not leading the championship. It is that simple. As for the drivers not getting along, this being f1 god knows it would kill them to get along. The press in Italy wouldn't stand for it.....

[ioan]

Your opinion counts to nothing.

Same goes for yours then.

[Mia 01]

The ting is that Alonso wont stop making fuss before he is the official No 1 in the team. Most people her knows this.

This bring tensions.

[Rodster]

The ting is that Alonso wont stop making fuss before he is the official No 1 in the team. Most people her knows this.

This bring tensions.

I just thought of something. Maybe this was payback time for Alonso when Massa was holding up Alonso at Melbourne. He feels he could have caught Kubica but wasn't able to pass his teammate.

He later was asked about Felipe and if there were team orders for him to move over and he said no and didn't want to ask his boss to ask Felipe to let him thru.

[steveaki13]

Yer Alonso doesn't seem to like teamates.
Not that any driver is there to particuarly like teamates.

Unless he dominates the team this season he will cause tensions.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yer Alonso doesn't seem to like teamates.
Not that any driver is there to particuarly like teamates.

Unless he dominates the team this season he will cause tensions.

You stating Alonso is a whiner? I wont fight you on that. Near as I can figure, he doesn't like anyone challenging him for number one. The Michael Schmacher theory of being the alpha male on a team....

[SGWilko]

I just thought of something. Maybe this was payback time for Alonso when Massa was holding up Alonso at Melbourne. He feels he could have caught Kubica but wasn't able to pass his teammate.

He later was asked about Felipe and if there were team orders for him to move over and he said no and didn't want to ask his boss to ask Felipe to let him thru.

Well, why did he not overtake then - he's 6/10ths quicker isn't he?

[Rodster]

Well, why did he not overtake then - he's 6/10ths quicker isn't he?

I ask the same question as you mate, besides i'm not an Alonso supporter. In fact I dislike him but he drives for my favorite team Ferrari.

[pino]

The ting is that Alonso wont stop making fuss before he is the official No 1 in the team. Most people her knows this.

This bring tensions.

There isn't and there won't be any tension, because both Alonso and Massa are very professional, and are only working for bringing and keeping Ferrari on top.

[Garry Walker]

There isn't and there won't be any tension, because both Alonso and Massa are very professional, and are only working for bringing and keeping Ferrari on top.

No, there is tension and there is a lot of it. Ferrari can issue 100 statements and it will not change the reality.

[Saint Devote]

Sterling Moss chose Fernando and Hamilton as just a few of the drivers on the grid who he classifies as racers and not drivers.

I think Ferrari should think long and hard and keep both of the current drivers because Felipe is as good as any other driver on the grid. The only thing he lacks is what Fernando has and that's a killer instinct.

The only thing that counts is having drivers that are capable of winning.

What difference does it make if someone is a "racer" or a "driver"? They both win titles. And Stirling Moss - no doubt a racer did not win a title. This is not a criticism either. Its a fact. Further, you talk about "killer instinct"?

Obviously you do not know the history of Moss. He told the truth about an incident VOLUNTARILY and as a result did not win the title in 1958. Definitely not a Hamilton or Alonso type of driver in my reckoning.

I will remind you that in 2008 Massa won more grands prix than Hamilton and had Ferrari not messed up a couple of times - more so than Massa and Hamilton more so than Massa - then the Brazilian would have been champion.

Privately, di Montezemolo should take Alonso aside and ask him if he enjoys being part of Ferrari. If he asnwers affirmatively, he should be told that any more little bitch stunts like he pulled on Sunday would see him suspended by Ferrari.

Naturally it will never happen.

Massa should not have given way to Alonso. He should have held his ground and collided. He has enough political capital to that and then claim as Alonso would, that he did not see the other Ferrari.

It might have cost Ferrari points, but it would have shown Alonso that Massa should not be trifled with.

I think Massa is far more like Moss than either the Spaniard or the Brit.

[Saint Devote]

You stating Alonso is a whiner? I wont fight you on that. Near as I can figure, he doesn't like anyone challenging him for number one. The Michael Schmacher theory of being the alpha male on a team....

A load of tosh.

Alonso is a great driver but he is immature and maybe, just maybe, Felipe is going to ring his clock as he did Raikonnens. Never underestimate the Brazilian.

Rosberg is nothing like that silly "alpha male" definition and will continue to thrash Michael Schumacher.

You see, some drivers, like Nico, have strong self-esteem and do not need to cling to car numbers either.

[Mark in Oshawa]

A load of tosh.

Alonso is a great driver but he is immature and maybe, just maybe, Felipe is going to ring his clock as he did Raikonnens. Never underestimate the Brazilian.

Rosberg is nothing like that silly "alpha male" definition and will continue to thrash Michael Schumacher.

You see, some drivers, like Nico, have strong self-esteem and do not need to cling to car numbers either.

Rosberg is a class guy. I didn't say he wasn't. Michael tho always made sure he was number one when he had any say about who his teammate was. I believe, doesn't play with others came to mind. Now, in his second go round, he is the elder statesmen, and he knows he isn't going to push Nico around. Nico is after all the son of Keke, who was about as tough a customer as ever stepped in a race car.

[Easy Drifter]

I'll go along with Mark on Keke and I saw him up close for a few years.
He was one of a very few who could take it to Gilles.

[pino]

No, there is tension and there is a lot of it. Ferrari can issue 100 statements and it will not change the reality.

And how do you know that ? do you work at Ferrari and can prove it ?

[Hawkmoon]

The media had these stories written the day after Alonso signed his Ferrari contract. They were just waiting for an excuse to dust them off. China gave it to them.

Alonso passed his teammate. Oh my god! They must hate each other now! The team will be torn asunder because two people simply can't get along! :rolleyes:

Every time we get two front-running teammates the media roll out the same tired old stories. You can bet your life the first time Button and Hamilton clash on the track we'll be hearing of "tensions" within McLaren shortly after.

[Retro Formula 1]

The media had these stories written the day after Alonso signed his Ferrari contract. They were just waiting for an excuse to dust them off. China gave it to them.

Alonso passed his teammate. Oh my god! They must hate each other now! The team will be torn asunder because two people simply can't get along! :rolleyes:

Every time we get two front-running teammates the media roll out the same tired old stories. You can bet your life the first time Button and Hamilton clash on the track we'll be hearing of "tensions" within McLaren shortly after.

I agree that there will always be tensions but as a Tifosi, what do you make of the overall state of Ferrari at the moment. Managing team mate rivalries is imperative but is only usually effectively achieved if there is strong management and direction. After some of the recent issues, what's your confidence level or is it unwavering no matter what's happening?

[Hawkmoon]

I agree that there will always be tensions but as a Tifosi, what do you make of the overall state of Ferrari at the moment. Managing team mate rivalries is imperative but is only usually effectively achieved if there is strong management and direction. After some of the recent issues, what's your confidence level or is it unwavering no matter what's happening?

Is the team being led as well as it was under Jean Todt? No. But that's a pretty high mark to try and achieve.

Am I worried that the team will fall apart? No. The people running the show now worked under the Todt regime and know what to do. They don't always get it right, nobody does, but I have no problem with them.

As for driver competition, too much is made of it. Drivers don't need to be best mates for the team to be successful. Prost/Senna anyone? Old Man Ferrari used to deliberately put his drivers at odds with each other. I'm not suggesting that Ferrari should do the same today but nor does the team have to be some kind of hippy love-in for them to be successful.

If Massa and Alonso fall out so be it. Ferrari will show one the door. There will always be a replacement.

[jas123f1]

I just thought of something. Maybe this was payback time for Alonso when Massa was holding up Alonso at Melbourne. He feels he could have caught Kubica but wasn't able to pass his teammate.

He later was asked about Felipe and if there were team orders for him to move over and he said no and didn't want to ask his boss to ask Felipe to let him thru.

Yes, I thought that too, Alonso was much quicker in that moment in Melbourne and the result of that Felipe was holding up him was that Felipe became as championship leader - which must be very irritating for Alonso and he didn't like that the difference between them would increase even more - I think that was the main reason why he made his maybe "slightly unsportsmanlike" overtaking..

I cant believe that there is more problems today than before - they are rivals and both want to be championship winners..

:s mokin:

[veeten]

Obviously you do not know the history of Moss. He told the truth about an incident VOLUNTARILY and as a result did not win the title in 1958. Definitely not a Hamilton or Alonso type of driver in my reckoning.

Of course, one has to remember who Moss was partnered with, at both Maserati & Mercedes-Benz, none other than Juan Manuel Fangio. Fangio was a Hamilton or Alonso or even Schumacher-type of driver, which made him a multiple World Champion.


I will remind you that in 2008 Massa won more grands prix than Hamilton and had Ferrari not messed up a couple of times - more so than Massa and Hamilton more so than Massa - then the Brazilian would have been champion.

Shame was it that Kimi was there, as he was many times before, to take advantage of the situation, including winning the '07 WDC and saving Ferrari's bacon at Interlagos. For Massa, it was a classic case of 'his race to lose...', and he did.

Massa was enjoying winning his home GP and being the WDC with his father in '08...

for all of 45 seconds.

Hamilton passes Glock for the needed position and points to attain the WDC, and yet again, Massa's dreams are dashed.


Privately, di Montezemolo should take Alonso aside and ask him if he enjoys being part of Ferrari. If he asnwers affirmatively, he should be told that any more little bitch stunts like he pulled on Sunday would see him suspended by Ferrari.

Naturally it will never happen.

Having 2 WDC's, back-to-back, sort of keeps that from happening. And seeing that that was the main reason for bringing him to the Scuderia, you never will.


Massa should not have given way to Alonso. He should have held his ground and collided. He has enough political capital to that and then claim as Alonso would, that he did not see the other Ferrari.

It might have cost Ferrari points, but it would have shown Alonso that Massa should not be trifled with.

Gone down this road before, (Prost vs Senna), only difference is you had 2 drivers vying for a spot for the pit rather than 2 WDC's fighting for the title.

Not only do you have a possible mess for Ferrari to sort, but you will have questions about Massa's fitness coming about, with everyone thinking he hasn't fully recovered from the head injury suffered in the Hungarian GP last year. Not a good place to be.


I think Massa is far more like Moss than either the Spaniard or the Brit.

That's agreeable. The perennial '2nd banana' to Alonso, just as his countryman, Rubens Barrichello, was to Schumacher and later to Button, and Moss was to Fangio. It may be painful to some, but there it is.

[Retro Formula 1]

Is the team being led as well as it was under Jean Todt? No. But that's a pretty high mark to try and achieve.

Am I worried that the team will fall apart? No. The people running the show now worked under the Todt regime and know what to do. They don't always get it right, nobody does, but I have no problem with them.

As for driver competition, too much is made of it. Drivers don't need to be best mates for the team to be successful. Prost/Senna anyone? Old Man Ferrari used to deliberately put his drivers at odds with each other. I'm not suggesting that Ferrari should do the same today but nor does the team have to be some kind of hippy love-in for them to be successful.

If Massa and Alonso fall out so be it. Ferrari will show one the door. There will always be a replacement.

Very good argument. Thanks for taking the time to give me a Tifosi perspective.

You are probably right but lets see how this fascinating battle unfolds. Looks like being fun.

[ioan]

Well, why did he not overtake then - he's 6/10ths quicker isn't he?

:D Good point that! :up:

[ioan]

The media had these stories written the day after Alonso signed his Ferrari contract. They were just waiting for an excuse to dust them off. China gave it to them.

Alonso passed his teammate. Oh my god! They must hate each other now! The team will be torn asunder because two people simply can't get along! :rolleyes:

Every time we get two front-running teammates the media roll out the same tired old stories. You can bet your life the first time Button and Hamilton clash on the track we'll be hearing of "tensions" within McLaren shortly after.

Exactly.

Well, why did he not overtake then - he's 6/10ths quicker isn't he?

When Fernando made that comment he said he brought 6/10ths to the team, not that he was 6/10ths quicker as a driver. The team run two cars. therefore the other driver would also benefit.

But don't let a fact get in the way of a blinkered, bigoted viewpoint.

Not that you ever would.

[SGWilko]

When Fernando made that comment he said he brought 6/10ths to the team, not that he was 6/10ths quicker as a driver. The team run two cars. therefore the other driver would also benefit.

But don't let a fact get in the way of a blinkered, bigoted viewpoint.

Not that you ever would.

Hi Tamb - it's blinkered bigot of biggleswade here.

So, when Fred leaves a team, he takes the 6/10th with him in hs suitcase I guess.

He is a clever bunny, isn't he?

Hi Tamb - it's blinkered bigot of biggleswade here.

So, when Fred leaves a team, he takes the 6/10th with him in hs suitcase I guess.

He is a clever bunny, isn't he?

What a surprise, another idiotic statement.

When you have knowledge, go near a keyboard. Until then, go back to school.

[SGWilko]

What a surprise, another idiotic statement.

When you have knowledge, go near a keyboard. Until then, go back to school.

Yessireeeee, Mr tambourine sir.

6/10ths indeed.......

[SGWilko]

What a surprise, another idiotic statement.

When you have knowledge, go near a keyboard. Until then, go back to school.

You didn't like the alliteration then?

[Saint Devote]

Of course, one has to remember who Moss was partnered with, at both Maserati & Mercedes-Benz, none other than Juan Manuel Fangio. Fangio was a Hamilton or Alonso or even Schumacher-type of driver, which made him a multiple World Champion.


The whole theme of the thread was Moss referrerence to type of driver.
I am not convinced that Lewis deserves to be placed alongside Fangio.

There are also multiple champions who were different.

[wmcot]

I kind of thought that there is an underlying tension in EVERY team between drivers? Do you not think that Hamilton wouldn't have passed Button or Webber wouldn't have passed Vettel in the same situation?

If an F1 driver is not driven to win, he's in the wrong sport! Nobody had a greater drive to win than Schumacher (in his prime years) and he was dominant. Did he win everything in a politically correct way - No! Did he win 7 championships - Yes! I see a lot of that same drive in Alonso.

[SGWilko]

No, there is tension and there is a lot of it. Ferrari can issue 100 statements and it will not change the reality.

I have to agree, Fred cannot help himself.....

Of course, with all eyes on Ferrari and Fred now, he's damned if he tries to assert his position further, and he's damned if he doesn't.

Poor little lamb....... ;)

[Dave B]

I'd be worried if there wasn't tension. Both drivers want to win races and championships, and both believe with some justification that they can do so. They'll both want the best treatment, the newest parts, the optimum strategy, the most experienced crew. It has the potential to make for a fascinating battle on and off track.

[Saint Devote]

I kind of thought that there is an underlying tension in EVERY team between drivers? Do you not think that Hamilton wouldn't have passed Button or Webber wouldn't have passed Vettel in the same situation?

If an F1 driver is not driven to win, he's in the wrong sport! Nobody had a greater drive to win than Schumacher (in his prime years) and he was dominant. Did he win everything in a politically correct way - No! Did he win 7 championships - Yes! I see a lot of that same drive in Alonso.

Indeed, but there is a significance difference between those seeking to win at any cost, being sacirificial, versus those who do it based on virtue.

Schumacher at times overrstepped the bounds of sporting behavior at critical moments, possibly not premeditated.

He did subsequently express regret at those actions and was ultimately deservedly penalized.

[Big Ben]

I can't believe it. I thought they were best buddies. Oh, so young and naive... the disappointment.... and the shock...too hard to bare

[SGWilko]

I can't believe it. I thought they were best buddies. Oh, so young and naive... the disappointment.... and the shock...too hard to bare

It's like a red rag to a Bull for Fred - 'scuse the Spanish orientated pun.

[DexDexter]

Nope but today Luca told Sky Italy, that his dream would be to see Valentino on the 3rd Ferrari.

What, Montezuma is still dreaming of the third car? :D

[Big Ben]

It's like a red rag to a Bull for Fred - 'scuse the Spanish orientated pun.

I don´t mind but the Spaniards should forgive you for it not me. Who´s the rag? Massa? :laugh:

[ioan]

What, Montezuma is still dreaming of the third car? :D

It has become his leitmotif. :D

[Mia 01]

I'd be worried if there wasn't tension. Both drivers want to win races and championships, and both believe with some justification that they can do so. They'll both want the best treatment, the newest parts, the optimum strategy, the most experienced crew. It has the potential to make for a fascinating battle on and off track.

You are right, But both drivers have to play it fair on and off track.

Otherwise it gets dirty, as in 2007.

[Jag_Warrior]

I hear this is the new theme song over at Ferrari. Any truth in it? :D

eq-yoorI7lo

[jens]

For a proper intra-team row both drivers should be capable of performing at the highest level. If one guy is underperforming, he doesn't have much room for complaints other than concentrating on his own (lack of) performance. Let's take a look at current Mercedes - Michael can do nothing about demanding a #1 status, he himself must start performing first.

What I mean is that hopefully Massa can raise his game and turn this battle into a real heated rivalry. If Alonso keeps driving faster than him, there is not much for the Spaniard to worry about.

[F1boat]

For a proper intra-team row both drivers should be capable of performing at the highest level. If one guy is underperforming, he doesn't have much room for complaints other than concentrating on his own (lack of) performance. Let's take a look at current Mercedes - Michael can do nothing about demanding a #1 status, he himself must start performing first.

What I mean is that hopefully Massa can raise his game and turn this battle into a real heated rivalry. If Alonso keeps driving faster than him, there is not much for the Spaniard to worry about.

The trouble was IMO that in two races in which Alonso was faster, circumstances put him behind Felipe and in China he decided that he had enough. IMO his move was brilliant.

[Mia 01]

If Alonso pulled that move he did on Massa in China to another human than Massa, that human will be eager to get revenge, and not a light one.


I belive Massa is human.

[ArrowsFA1]

Rivalry between Johnson and Gordon at Hendrick is seen as pretty healthy and good for the sport.

Why isn't this the case with Massa & Alonso?

[Mia 01]

Theres definately sign he's a human, thats for sure. I think he'll bring along a poacher called "Savage Henry" to Spain and sort Alonso the hell out. :p

Or he'll tow the corporate line and behave himself and wait for Alonso to bite first as the season hots up.. :)


You got a point there. I forgot that Massas contract runs out this year.

Rivalry between Johnson and Gordon at Hendrick is seen as pretty healthy and good for the sport.

Why isn't this the case with Massa & Alonso?

Because desperate Mclaren fans want to be able to say that it wasn't Ron Dennis's dreadful management that was to blame for two drivers falling out?

It is funny and desperate that Hamilton's supporters are so keen to see Fernando and Felipe falling out.

Nobody else seems to bothered about what is a normal state of affairs between team-mates.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Because desperate Mclaren fans want to be able to say that it wasn't Ron Dennis's dreadful management that was to blame for two drivers falling out?

It is funny and desperate that Hamilton's supporters are so keen to see Fernando and Felipe falling out.

Nobody else seems to bothered about what is a normal state of affairs between team-mates.

I am not bothered at what goes on between Massa and Alonso, but once again, the ferrari fan turns his nose up at mclaren fans :rolleyes:

[henners88]

Because desperate Mclaren fans want to be able to say that it wasn't Ron Dennis's dreadful management that was to blame for two drivers falling out?

It is funny and desperate that Hamilton's supporters are so keen to see Fernando and Felipe falling out.

Nobody else seems to bothered about what is a normal state of affairs between team-mates.
I know isn't it terrible tamb? Its comparable with the desparate Ferrari fans who have taken every opportunity to pin blame on Mclaren for his disasterous/self inflicted sacking from the Woking squad. Sad indeed.

Some people eh? :p :)

[henners88]

I am not bothered at what goes on between Massa and Alonso, but once again, the ferrari fan turns his nose up at mclaren fans :rolleyes:
Hmmm its to be expected. How can anybody expect to be taken seriously when they display such bias through their forum signature? Its not as easy to cry victim when the dirt is dished the other way IMO.. :p :)

[henners88]

Because desperate Mclaren fans want to be able to say that it wasn't Ron Dennis's dreadful management that was to blame for two drivers falling out?

It is funny and desperate that Hamilton's supporters are so keen to see Fernando and Felipe falling out.

Are you playing the victim now then? :bigcry:
When someone like you who has an unhealthy obsession with sticking the boot into Mclaren at every conceivable opportunity, I find this abit rich. No actually hilarious. Your signature displays the level of respect you have for the sport. :laugh:

Poor form indeed.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Are you playing the victim now then? :bigcry:
When someone like you who has an unhealthy obsession with sticking the boot into Mclaren at every conceivable opportunity, I find this abit rich. No actually hilarious. Your signature displays the level of respect you have for the sport. :laugh:

Poor form indeed.

:up: absolutely agree. the way some ferrari fans think about Mclaren fans is laughable.

[ioan]

Because desperate Mclaren fans want to be able to say that it wasn't Ron Dennis's dreadful management that was to blame for two drivers falling out?

It is funny and desperate that Hamilton's supporters are so keen to see Fernando and Felipe falling out.

Nobody else seems to bothered about what is a normal state of affairs between team-mates.

That is really interesting, the fans who are worried about a fall out at Ferrari are not the Ferrari fans. Why am I not surprised?!

[DexDexter]

Because desperate Mclaren fans want to be able to say that it wasn't Ron Dennis's dreadful management that was to blame for two drivers falling out?

It is funny and desperate that Hamilton's supporters are so keen to see Fernando and Felipe falling out.

Nobody else seems to bothered about what is a normal state of affairs between team-mates.

You know that they will fall out, that's just the way it goes. Unless Massa is really bad of course. But you know, they wanted more Latin in the team and now they have that. ;)

[ioan]

Are you playing the victim now then? :bigcry:

I think he was just pointing out the McLaren fans hypocrisy, he was obviously way to subtle for you to get the idea. :D

[henners88]

I think he was just pointing out the McLaren fans hypocrisy, he was obviously way to subtle for you to get the idea. :D
If irony did not exist eh? :p

Way over my head ioan, way over. :)
http://skepticalteacher.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/facepalm1.jpg

Are you playing the victim now then? :bigcry:
When someone like you who has an unhealthy obsession with sticking the boot into Mclaren at every conceivable opportunity, I find this abit rich. No actually hilarious. Your signature displays the level of respect you have for the sport. :laugh:

Poor form indeed.

Worst post of the season.

[Big Ben]

Worst post of the season.

Indeed. The worst! I don´t understand however what´s with the quote.

[Big Ben]

I think he was just pointing out the McLaren fans hypocrisy, he was obviously way to subtle for you to get the idea. :D

So how many times do you have to call all the McLaren fans hypocrits before being a broken record? Even our friends from Finland gave up mentioning Santander in every post.

[Mia 01]

Indeed. Massa was abit silly in the pre season partially blaming Alonso for depriving him of winning the 2008 WDC, but lately he has insisted everything is rosey. It may well be ok between the two, but with Alonso hinting that he has been held up and not shown his true pace, and the latest pitlane move, I'd be surprised if something was not brewing.

They are both highly competitive individuals and have both shown in the past to display emotion before thought. It'll be interesting to watch, but I reckon Massa will tow the corporate line for now and let the fireworks ignite from the other side of the garage. It may well be the case that both have learnt from past experiences and this won't happen however.. :)

Don´t worry, I´m sure Alonso will be at it again very soon.

Indeed. Massa was abit silly in the pre season partially blaming Alonso for depriving him of winning the 2008 WDC

Another totally false misrepresentation of the facts.

Massa blamed Briatore, Symonds and Piquet.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/54256,sport,other-sport,felipe-massa-blames-renault-cheats-for-losing-last-seasons-championship

No mention of Fernando.

[Retro Formula 1]

Another totally false misrepresentation of the facts.

Massa blamed Briatore, Symonds and Piquet.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/54256,sport,other-sport,felipe-massa-blames-renault-cheats-for-losing-last-seasons-championship

No mention of Fernando.

Totally correct. It must be stressed that there is no evidence or suggestion that Alonso or Renault were in any way involved in this disgraceful incident.

There were 3 people involved and F1 would be fine if they never return.

[SGWilko]

Another totally false misrepresentation of the facts.

Massa blamed Briatore, Symonds and Piquet.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/54256,sport,other-sport,felipe-massa-blames-renault-cheats-for-losing-last-seasons-championship

No mention of Fernando.

That's correct. Fred was in no way involved. Shoot, he was not even driving that day........ completely innocent......had no clue....he just wants his Mum.

That's correct. Fred was in no way involved. Shoot, he was not even driving that day........ completely innocent......had no clue....he just wants his Mum.

So it's ok to accuse Fernando based on no evidence, as confirmed by the FIA investigation, but if somebody suggests that Fernando was treated badly at Mclaren you claim it is unfair to do so because you claim there is no evidence?

A bit hypocritical, that.

[SGWilko]

I don't care whether Alonso knew or not, but I do remember Massa suggesting Alonso knew full well what was happening. I am not misinterpreting the facts, and it looks like you are ignoring certain facts to make your arguement stronger.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1220598/It-doesnt-Massa-I-said-Alonso-knew-Crashgate-I-prove--rocky-road-ahead-Ferrari-duo-despite-apology-Felipe.html

http://www.formula1nexus.com/massa-insists-alonso-knew-about-conspiracy/

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/15/massa-charges-that-alonso-knew-about-piquet-crash-plan/

The link you have provided is dated 2 Oct 2009, before the Alonso comment was made. The comment regarding Alonso was made on 14th Oct 2009. Now who is misinterpreting the facts?! Remember Massa issuing a statement to retract his comments?? The Ferrari PR department had obviously made him aware of the implications of bad mouthing a new teammate.

It's gone quiet Henners, any idea why??????

[SGWilko]

So it's ok to accuse Fernando based on no evidence, as confirmed by the FIA investigation, but if somebody suggests that Fernando was treated badly at Mclaren you claim it is unfair to do so because you claim there is no evidence?

A bit hypocritical, that.

Lets just wait and see when, sorry, IF Fred has a tantrum at Ferrari shall we....??

[Garry Walker]

And how do you know that ? do you work at Ferrari and can prove it ?

Yes, I am luca di montezemolo :D

[SGWilko]

Yes, I am luca di montezemolo :D

Sorry to hear that, do you have regular councelling for this? ;)

Is this only at weekends, or is the dillusion a full time obsession.......

[SGWilko]

So it's ok to accuse Fernando based on no evidence, as confirmed by the FIA investigation, but if somebody suggests that Fernando was treated badly at Mclaren you claim it is unfair to do so because you claim there is no evidence?

A bit hypocritical, that.

Hmmm, this'll be the old 'true and trustworthy FIA' will it....???

Nothing a bucket load of dominatrix's couldn't get you.......

It's gone quiet Henners, any idea why??????

I took my 7 month baby boy swimming.

'What I've said is the outcome of a hunch I've had and is not based on any concrete evidence,' said Massa

'The FIA World Council announced that there was no indication that Fernando may have been informed of what had happened and I respect this outcome"

Pretty much outlines comprehensively that Massa didn't believe Fernando was involved.

Nice try, but the accusation that you misrepresent facts stands.

It's not like it's the first time either.

[Garry Walker]

'What I've said is the outcome of a hunch I've had and is not based on any concrete evidence,' said Massa

'The FIA World Council announced that there was no indication that Fernando may have been informed of what had happened and I respect this outcome"

Pretty much outlines comprehensively that Massa didn't believe Fernando was involved.

Nice try, but the accusation that you misrepresent facts stands.

It's not like it's the first time either.
Massa before damage control by Ferrari set in:

It was the team and Nelson, but Alonso was part of the problem,' Massa is quoted as saying.
'He knew. We cannot know it, (but) of course he knew. Absolute certainty.

[SGWilko]

I took my 7 month baby boy swimming.

Henners, are you spelling your forum name with a t now?

[SGWilko]

Massa before damage control by Ferrari set in:

Friday - 'just the facts ma'am, just the facts'.

He gets a lot of repressed feelings.

[SGWilko]

That wasn't the discussion we were having. The issue was with Massa accusing Fernando in the past which he did. I couldn't care less whether Alonso knew about the conspiracy, the point I was making was that Massa felt Fernando was responsible. On 14th Oct 2009 he made that claim and then retracted it on the 15th Oct 2009.

YOU claimed Massa had not mentioned Alonso and provided a link which was dated nearly 2 weeks before the accusation. Just because he retracted his claim, does not mean he doesn't still have that opinion. I would have thought the Ferrari PR dept were not overly keen on Felipe making a wild incriminating statement about their new signing and his soon to be teammate.

I have supported my opinion with factual information and have proved that Felipe had publically blamed Alonso for his assumed part in Crashgate, and you have now tried to shift the arguement onto a different area and highlighted the retraction. Why am I not surprised.

Bet you he is out with his boy again for a while........

[DexDexter]

That wasn't the discussion we were having. The issue was with Massa accusing Fernando in the past which he did. I couldn't care less whether Alonso knew about the conspiracy, the point I was making was that Massa felt Fernando was responsible. On 14th Oct 2009 he made that claim and then retracted it on the 15th Oct 2009.

YOU claimed Massa had not mentioned Alonso and provided a link which was dated nearly 2 weeks before the accusation. Just because he retracted his claim, does not mean he doesn't still have that opinion. I would have thought the Ferrari PR dept were not overly keen on Felipe making a wild incriminating statement about their new signing and his soon to be teammate.

I have supported my opinion with factual information and have proved that Felipe had publically blamed Alonso for his assumed part in Crashgate, and you have now tried to shift the arguement onto a different area and highlighted the retraction. Why am I not surprised.

I know for a fact that last year Ferrari PR put out press releases where they quoted Räikkönen saying things he hadn't actually said so Massa rectracting his earlier opinions etc. is not surprising at all.

That wasn't the discussion we were having. The issue was with Massa accusing Fernando in the past which he did.

Erm, show me where exactly he states that Fernando was "to blame".

Until you can do that, what you have done is misrepresent the facts.

Bet you he is out with his boy again for a while........

Something you'll never know about, as tissues can't get pregnant.

[fandango]

Gentlemen, please.

[henners88]

Gentlemen, please.
Unfortunately thats how an awful lot of threads go on here. People ask for facts, you provide them, and they insult you because you've made them look silly. Oh well.... :)

Unfortunately thats how an awful lot of threads go on here. People ask for facts, you provide them, and they insult you because you've made them look silly. Oh well.... :)

Where the feck are your facts?

You claimed Massa blamedAlonso for his 2008 title defeat.

Provide the factual evidence that he said that.

You cannot, so spare the crepe about facts. You haven't got them.

[fandango]

I reckon that argument comes down to nationality. Alonso is often seen as the baddie in Britain, likewise Hamilton in Spain, Schumacher in Britain etc, and I imagine Alonso is probably not the most popular driver in Brazil, from his relations with Massa and Piquet.

Here in Catalunya Alonso is seen as kind of cold and arrogant, whereas in the Uk they often mention his "legendary tantrums".

Ferrari have seen it all.....

[SGWilko]

Something you'll never know about, as tissues can't get pregnant.

Actually, that was really rather good. Made me chuckle.

[SGWilko]

Unfortunately thats how an awful lot of threads go on here. People ask for facts, you provide them, and they insult you because you've made them look silly. Oh well.... :)

Still, at least he is consistent!!!!

Can't borrow a Kleenex can I? ;)

[SGWilko]

Where the feck are your facts?



I see you are learning to alliterate, mate. Oooohhhhh, that rhymes......

:laugh:

[SGWilko]

Erm, show me where exactly he states that Fernando was "to blame".

Until you can do that, what you have done is misrepresent the facts.

I object....

....repetition.

[Mia 01]

Fernando isn´t the leading driver in the championchip, I´m sure he feels some pressure now. Noone dear to stand in his way.

Kimi did quit well in his first year.

[donKey jote]

Kimi who? :p

[Koz]

Kimi who? :p

Kimi the 2007 and 2011 WDC. :D

[DexDexter]

IMO Alonso is doing quite well at Ferrari but let's remember that he is the most expensive F1 driver of all time and was brought into to the team to dominate. So far he hasn't done that but time will tell...

[AndyL]

Kimi did quit well

Hmmm, Freudian slip? ;)

[Mia 01]

Hmmm, Freudian slip? ;)

You got me! ;)

[donKey jote]

Kimi the 2007 and 2011 WDC. :D

ah... you mean the 2021 WRC :laugh:

[Retro Formula 1]

ah... you mean the 2021 WRC :laugh:

No, that would be Jacques!

[Mia 01]

Today, it seems as Massa is faster than Alonso.