Local Press'es Take on Danica at LBGP

[SoCalPVguy]

DAILY BREEZE (South Bay area of Los Angeles, Copely Press; probably also appeared in all So Cal papers) article re. the Princess at Long Beach. Its local so maybe you national and international forum readers haven't seen this one yet...

Link: http://www.dailybreeze.com/sports/ci_14912029
Patrick's road struggles continue

By Dave Werstine, Staff Writer
Posted: 04/18/2010 11:22:07 PM PDT

LONG BEACH - Danica Patrick, arguably the most recognizable face in the IZOD Indy Racing League, was nearly invisible this weekend at the 36th Annual Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach.



No press conferences. No podium speeches.



The best places to catch a glimpse of the "GoDaddy Girl" was on the cover of the Grand Prix program, on television commercials and toward the back of the pack in qualifying and on race day.



It's been a tough start to the season for Patrick. Through four races, she has qualified poorly and her races results have been mediocre at best....



...more at link...

[NickFalzone]

It still baffles me why she is so far behind on the roads/streets. She's been driving them on and off her whole racing career. Sure there were a couple years there of all ovals, but by 2005 the IRL had a street track or two. She's getting fast race cars, probably good setup advice from her team members.. I just don't get it.

[TURN3]

It still baffles me why she is so far behind on the roads/streets. She's been driving them on and off her whole racing career. Sure there were a couple years there of all ovals, but by 2005 the IRL had a street track or two. She's getting fast race cars, probably good setup advice from her team members.. I just don't get it.

It really is a simple reason...she sucks! Look at her history. She has NEVER really been competitive at any level. Some of the posters here have been kind enough to put together some very good information on her career in Europe and through Barber and Atlantics. She's just never been the person the marketing has said she was. That is how simple it gets.

[anthonyvop]

I know this will raise the ire of certain members but if Ms. Patrick didn't bring in big Sponsor $$$ she would in all probability be dumped by most teams.


In other words.....


She is a ride buyer.

[Easy Drifter]

Tony Tony ---How dare you :eek: ------ speak the truth! :eek:

[MDS]

if you don't feed the beast the beast feeds on you.

Danica hasn't been doing much Indy press, or much motorsport press this year. Seems to me that the writer couldn't get any time with Danica and wrote a story about that.

[SarahFan]

Where are the brand developers?

Maybe a viral
video is in order

[Scotty G.]

Danica is just half-assing it right now in Indy Cars. NASCAR is where Pimp-Daddy wants her and where she wants to be. She is already gone and everybody knows it. The longer she stays in a Indy Car, is just more time it will take her to ever become mediocre in NASCAR's AAA level of racing. Her time, to make her big NASCAR coin, is getting short. She is not some 20 year old hotshot. She is nearing 30 years old and "the brand's" shelf life is not a long one. Especially when actual racing talent is what she lacks the most. The sooner she becomes a full-time stock car driver, the better for her. She has set the bar so low, that any kind of half-way decent result, will keep the ESPN media shills buzzing and keep her from being "found out" as a fraud. That will buy her some more time and buy her more $$$ for her account.

I'd say her lawyers are already hard at work to get her out of that Andretti contract ASAP. Would not surprise me at all, if some kind of deal is struck sometime shortly after Indy, that gets Danica into the Nationwide car for the rest of 2010 and out of the Indy Car for the rest of the season. Maybe they come to a deal, that DP comes back and runs Indy in 2011 for them.

Maybe they can convince Pimp Daddy Parsons to put Hildebrand in that #7 car for the rest of the year after DP bails. Then Andretti can spend the off-season looking for the replacement to the Go-Home Daddy sponsor dollars.

[Lousada]

Now the ovals start she can work on getting some rep back. She really needs to step it up, before even the Nascar people realise she is not that good.

[Spiderman]

Maybe they can convince Pimp Daddy Parsons to put Hildebrand in that #7 car for the rest of the year after DP bails. Then Andretti can spend the off-season looking for the replacement to the Go-Home Daddy sponsor dollars.
Maybe they should run Ryan Hunter-Reay the entire season, because it looks like him being a championship contender...

[ykiki]

Now the ovals start she can work on getting some rep back. She really needs to step it up, before even the Nascar people realise she is not that good.

The problem with this is that she is the obvious week link in the Andretti team as far as road courses are concerned. However, her teammates are also good on ovals.

[harvick#1]

Where are the brand developers?

Maybe a viral
video is in order

great, more Pimp-Daddy commercials :rolleyes:

[Rodster]

It really is a simple reason...she sucks! Look at her history. She has NEVER really been competitive at any level. Some of the posters here have been kind enough to put together some very good information on her career in Europe and through Barber and Atlantics. She's just never been the person the marketing has said she was. That is how simple it gets.

Thank you !

IMO Danica at her best is a consistently average driver. When she went to AGR at the time they had the best car and managed one win. She has never dominated when she had the chance.

Right now she's looking at Nascar so the Indycar League is an afterthought. She has struggled there already and will continue to do so.

[beachbum]

I know this will raise the ire of certain members but if Ms. Patrick didn't bring in big Sponsor $$$ she would in all probability be dumped by most teams.


In other words.....


She is a ride buyer.The May issue of Racer magazine has an article about racers at 18. Danica talked about her FF experience. In the middle of the season after her 2nd at the Formula Ford Festival, she was apparently released from her ride at a race. Her quote - "Then one day after practice I got a call from my manager, who told me not to go to the track the next day, that was it, over". Funny how her biographies gloss over how she left FF.

Either the money ran out, or the team fired her. The team continued and again placed their drivers 1st and 2nd at the 2001 FF Festival. I did find a very interesting quote from a much later article about her FF experience (The article read like a PR release). "Mygale cars provided by Haywood Racing weren't competitive with the Van Diemens, and the shortcomings made them particularly unsuitable for Patrick's driving style." Haywood ran the Mygale cars at the 2001 FF festival. The article even had a complimentary quote from Haywood racing, which doesn't quite fit with Danica's quote in Racer. Incidentally, the FF festival was her only podium finish in 2000.

http://www.driverdb.com/drivers/229/

Another interesting tidbit can be gleamed from the Mygale website. She was in a Mygale at the 2000 FF, but the web site only listed the winner at the FF Festival (Anthony Davidson). Yet in other years (including 2001), they list both 1st and 2nd place finishers at races and various series. Racer also has a picture from the FF Festival where Danica is standing behind the 1st and 3rd place finishers (both regular Haywood drivers and they seemed to be ignoring her). I found a podium picture and she was WAY off to the side. There was another American in the field that day, running ahead of her until he was taken out. Patrick Long.

IHMO what annoys many racing fans is how her racing history has been "enhanced" to appear more than it is. She isn't a bad driver, but without a PR machine and questionable self-promotion, she would barely be a footnote in racing history.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Why Danica sucks at road/street racing? She isn't dedicated enough and smart enough to tune the car.

It was said best by Tony and others...she is a very good ride buyer...because people have ignored her ride buying.

All you need to know is the fact Rahal didn't try to stop her from leaving after he developed her career into the IRL. Bobby is a smart guy.....he knew she had gone as far he wanted to see her go in his stuff.....

[TURN3]

The May issue of Racer magazine has an article about racers at 18. Danica talked about her FF experience. In the middle of the season after her 2nd at the Formula Ford Festival, she was apparently released from her ride at a race. Her quote - "Then one day after practice I got a call from my manager, who told me not to go to the track the next day, that was it, over". Funny how her biographies gloss over how she left FF.

Either the money ran out, or the team fired her. The team continued and again placed their drivers 1st and 2nd at the 2001 FF Festival. I did find a very interesting quote from a much later article about her FF experience (The article read like a PR release). "Mygale cars provided by Haywood Racing weren't competitive with the Van Diemens, and the shortcomings made them particularly unsuitable for Patrick's driving style." Haywood ran the Mygale cars at the 2001 FF festival. The article even had a complimentary quote from Haywood racing, which doesn't quite fit with Danica's quote in Racer. Incidentally, the FF festival was her only podium finish in 2000.

http://www.driverdb.com/drivers/229/

Another interesting tidbit can be gleamed from the Mygale website. She was in a Mygale at the 2000 FF, but the web site only listed the winner at the FF Festival (Anthony Davidson). Yet in other years (including 2001), they list both 1st and 2nd place finishers at races and various series. Racer also has a picture from the FF Festival where Danica is standing behind the 1st and 3rd place finishers (both regular Haywood drivers and they seemed to be ignoring her). I found a podium picture and she was WAY off to the side. There was another American in the field that day, running ahead of her until he was taken out. Patrick Long.

IHMO what annoys many racing fans is how her racing history has been "enhanced" to appear more than it is. She isn't a bad driver, but without a PR machine and questionable self-promotion, she would barely be a footnote in racing history.

And Patrick Long DOMINATES GT class racing these days. As her teammate, he domminated her. You hit the nail on the head...without the PR and marketing "gloss" as you put it, she would never have registered as a blip in the racing world. Some may say she isn't a "bad" driver and to that I ask what is the definition of a "bad" driver? I will say that she stays out of trouble generally...that is the only thing I can find in her abilities. There are scores and scores of drivers out there that can out run her in lesser equipment. I realize talent isn't what gets you a ride these days but still, she never earned anything in her career. Her talent level is lacking in every single catagory...except staying out of trouble. IMO, that is easy to do when you aren't capable of putting the car on the limit.

[SoCalPVguy]

Danica = PC Affirmative action at its worst

[harvick#1]

Now the ovals start she can work on getting some rep back. She really needs to step it up, before even the Nascar people realise she is not that good.

what rep, that shes gonna be in the low end of top 10's barring several drivers have mistakes.

expect all 5 (except maybe Will for now) from CGR and Penske to be ahead of her, TK, Marco, and RHR are all more driven to be faster than her on any given track when its time to go race hard, Ed Carpenter should be back with the oval season, so theres another ahead, Mutoh can normally surprise with strong oval runs.

Danica shouldn't expect anything easy on the ovals either, and alot of the ex champ car drivers are really starting to get better on ovals as well, another reason she prolly leaving the IRL because I believe shes even finding out how average of a driver she really is, and making a leap to Nascar will finish her racing career off and she can stick to Pimp Daddy commercials

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think the first oval race ought to be fun. When Danica discovers she is going to be hard pressed to stay in the top 10, that will be the end of the myth that she is really a top flight driver. She isn't...just a well promoted driver.

[EagleEye]

It still baffles me why she is so far behind on the roads/streets. She's been driving them on and off her whole racing career. Sure there were a couple years there of all ovals, but by 2005 the IRL had a street track or two. She's getting fast race cars, probably good setup advice from her team members.. I just don't get it.

She can drive and has talent and has the tools to be good on any circuit. The biggest issue is and has been her desire and she does not do enough homework on how to get the most out of herself, and her car.

Data, and viewing data is huge in this sport. The cars are the same, engines the same, tires, setups can be the same... it is that extra effort that makes a good driver great. Working with their engineers and team mates to extract everything from the car, and themselves is key. The top drivers are like mini Mark Donahue’s. She is no Donahue. More like a Tim Richmond, if you know what I mean.

Danica, with all her talents, at times expects to just show up and go fast. She continues to believe things will improve greatly on ovals but even while she has been quick at times, she rarely has raced well. She rarely crashes, can tend to get wide when being lapped, and can go quite well at times, a t a steady comfortable pace. But she lacks in sheer "do everything I can to win" mentality you see from some of the top drivers (Think Moore, JPM, Zanardi).

Ask any engineer with Pi Sim on their computer to run a simulation, with everything equal except the driver's weight, and you will find what a huge performance advantage the smaller drivers have on ovals. That is why CART changed their rules back when CDM was winning quite a bit (though after that change, he and the NH continued to win). I hate to say it but if the IRL ever made the same rule that CART did, she would again be near the rear, on ovals.

Having watched her work so hard coming up through the ranks over the years and now watching her spend more time on the "Brand" then her craft, is very sad.

I can see her starting in the top ten in Kansas, but unless there is a lot of attrition, or she gets a lucky fuel run again, I think she will find herself out of the top ten at the finish. Indy seems more in her wheelhouse, due to the number of cars that drop out, and she can keep a good steady pace.

Right now at this point and time, there are just more hungry drivers than her.

[TURN3]

Now there was a driver who could/should have been the next big American driver and he wanted to be in OW. No money, no chance. Not a single one of the teams ever gave him so much as a look.

Sad indeed Starter. I do not personally know him but am very close to people that do. When asked if he held any regrets or jealousy he simply said no...Porsche pays him very very well (and better than an Indycar owner i would suspect) and to each their own. Truly a classy response.

[TURN3]

She can drive and has talent and has the tools to be good on any circuit.

With all due respect EE, when has she EVER demonstrated this? When I say ever feel free to explore all the way back to her post-karting career. I think it is very polite of you to preface your very accurate and well said post with a pay of respect toward her but c'mon. She can drive in the sense she's not 8 seconds off the pace or a spin out waiting to happen but that in no way makes a person talented. We are talking about the pinnacle of American open wheel motorsports and she's not that talented (nor are some others). On a talent only basis I'd suggest she needs to spend a little more time on the Barber Pro circuit.

[EagleEye]

With all due respect EE, when has she EVER demonstrated this? When I say ever feel free to explore all the way back to her post-karting career. I think it is very polite of you to preface your very accurate and well said post with a pay of respect toward her but c'mon. She can drive in the sense she's not 8 seconds off the pace or a spin out waiting to happen but that in no way makes a person talented. We are talking about the pinnacle of American open wheel motorsports and she's not that talented (nor are some others). On a talent only basis I'd suggest she needs to spend a little more time on the Barber Pro circuit.


She won in karting, and did well in Atlantics. Her drive at Indy a few years back was at times very impressive (amid some messy bits) and she seemed to have more fire in her belly.


Even this past weekend, she made a daring pass to get in front of Simona in tricky turn one. I'll have to go another way on this, as she does have talent, but she does not apply enough of her time to improve on those talents. The problem is that we do not see this enough. She runs fairly consistant lap times, which is another sign that she gets it.

She actually reminds me a bit of a young Christian Fittipaldi. No party was too small for Christian, and while he also had talent, he was often overshadowed by others who applied themselves to get better. He would show occasional flashes, but it took some time for him to win.

Remember, the truth is always in the middle.

[Mark in Oshawa]

She won in karting, and did well in Atlantics. Her drive at Indy a few years back was at times very impressive (amid some messy bits) and she seemed to have more fire in her belly.


Even this past weekend, she made a daring pass to get in front of Simona in tricky turn one. I'll have to go another way on this, as she does have talent, but she does not apply enough of her time to improve on those talents. The problem is that we do not see this enough. She runs fairly consistant lap times, which is another sign that she gets it.

She actually reminds me a bit of a young Christian Fittipaldi. No party was too small for Christian, and while he also had talent, he was often overshadowed by others who applied themselves to get better. He would show occasional flashes, but it took some time for him to win.

Remember, the truth is always in the middle.

Did well in Atlantics? I guess you never saw her race in Atlantics. I did....trust me, I knew it was stupidity putting Danica in the IRL based on what she did in Atlantics. Kath Legge won two races in Atlantics against a deeper field, and she isn't in the IRL, so where anyone would use her records in FF or Atlantics is beyond me entirely.

If it wasn't for some clever fuel mileage gambles at Indy those years ago, Danica likely wouldn't be in the IRL NOW....l

[TURN3]

She won in karting, and did well in Atlantics. Her drive at Indy a few years back was at times very impressive (amid some messy bits) and she seemed to have more fire in her belly.


Even this past weekend, she made a daring pass to get in front of Simona in tricky turn one. I'll have to go another way on this, as she does have talent, but she does not apply enough of her time to improve on those talents. The problem is that we do not see this enough. She runs fairly consistant lap times, which is another sign that she gets it.

She actually reminds me a bit of a young Christian Fittipaldi. No party was too small for Christian, and while he also had talent, he was often overshadowed by others who applied themselves to get better. He would show occasional flashes, but it took some time for him to win.

Remember, the truth is always in the middle.

See that is what I mean...nobody can really put their finger on what her talent is. You are reaching quite a bit when you say she won in karting...of course she did. Anybody that karts can be good if their family devotes their entire lives to it. I've made the analogy before but I was an outstanding pitcher in farm league ad little league baseball but sadly that didn't hold water as the pro scouts never showed up. To say she did well in Atlantics...really? What did she have 2 podiums in 2 years or something like that. 1 of those when the 3 leaders crashed out together.

I don't mean to demean your views so please don't take it that way. It is your right to see what you see. I'm just pointing out what I see, which is the obvious. When a driver has been professional for 14 years and all you can say to support her talent level is...she did well in karts and Atlantics (argumentative)...that isn't saying much for a professional drivers talent level. Go back to around her Daytona run and read Bobby Rahal's candid and fair comments about what he thinks of her talent level...I'd think he would have a pretty representative opinion. When she leaves AA, it'll be very interesting to see what other stories start being said about her in public as there are many that people won't currently speak of publicly.

Much of what you've posted I agree with whole heartedly...I just can't see any truth or fact to Danica having what a professional race driver should have to be "talented".

[beachbum]

She won in karting, and did well in Atlantics. Her drive at Indy a few years back was at times very impressive (amid some messy bits) and she seemed to have more fire in her belly.


Even this past weekend, she made a daring pass to get in front of Simona in tricky turn one. I'll have to go another way on this, as she does have talent, but she does not apply enough of her time to improve on those talents. The problem is that we do not see this enough. She runs fairly consistant lap times, which is another sign that she gets it.

She actually reminds me a bit of a young Christian Fittipaldi. No party was too small for Christian, and while he also had talent, he was often overshadowed by others who applied themselves to get better. He would show occasional flashes, but it took some time for him to win.

Remember, the truth is always in the middle. I think you are being very generous. While she won in karting she ran in the same period as Hornish, Hunter-Reay, Sarah Fisher and others. They regularly finished ahead of her. I dug up some long lost results and was surprised that most of the "championships" listed in her PR were regional championships. When she showed up in Barber Dodge, she was beaten by Rhonda Trammel. She did ok in Atlantics, but never was much of a threat for a win (unlike Legge and Simona). She has shown speed at times, particular on tracks where she can hold the throttle down and hang on (like Indy). In her early years in the IRL, her reflexes and quick hands were impressive. But she never seems to have gone beyond that. When she has to "drive" the car, she doesn't do all that great.

The "daring" pass of Simona looked very tentative to me. Simona went wide and let her through. Simona gave her so much room Tags got alongside as well. Not very daring. As for consistent laps times, check out the lap charts and watch during practice. She can sometimes throw up a reasonably quick time, but often her times are all over the map. Compared to some like Helio and even Simona and Marco, she is pretty erratic.

Comparing her to Christian is an insult to Christian. He never lived up to his promise, but he was a decent journeyman driver and could actually challenge the front at times.

Danica has always had top line equipment so it is often hard to tell how much of the performance is equipment and how much is driver. But this year in both the IRL and NASCAR, we are getting a better guage.

While the truth may be somewhere in the middle, there has been a lot of revisionist history about her. She has driving talent, but doesn't seem to know how to develop it. Having "fire in the belly" is nice, but the cool hard determination usually seen in true champions is missing.

[Scotty G.]

Even this past weekend, she made a daring pass to get in front of Simona in tricky turn one.

Which was probably the first car on track she has passed all year (and that is not embellishing).

Of course, I am sure that had more to do with another female being the car in front of her. She always races Sarah hard too.

Danica is a competent and steady DRIVER. She is not a RACER though. HUGE difference.

[NickFalzone]

Which was probably the first car on track she has passed all year (and that is not embellishing).

Of course, I am sure that had more to do with another female being the car in front of her. She always races Sarah hard too.

Danica is a competent and steady DRIVER. She is not a RACER though. HUGE difference.

This is so true. Makes me wonder if the whole series was female, she would drive more aggressively. Whenever there are other women in the field she has been particularly aggressive with them, both in practice and the race. It's like she's OK being mid-pack or worse amongst the guys, but if there's another female that's competitive, she's going to race her guts out to make sure she finishes ahead of them. And tbh, having Andretti equipment and finishing one-spot ahead of a driver in HVM equipment is not a whole lot to be proud of.

[Easy Drifter]

It will be interesting to see what happens when she gets back in the NAtionwide car. I think she will be right near the back again. The Sprint Cup boys are tough and the Nationwide guys are mostly real hungry and full of fight which she seems to lack.
At Talledaga and Richmond Jr. is putting a young Cdn. driver from northern Ont. in the #7. Steve Arpin who just won the last two ARCA races at Salem and Texas.
He will be a Nationwide rookie.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It will be interesting to see what happens when she gets back in the NAtionwide car. I think she will be right near the back again. The Sprint Cup boys are tough and the Nationwide guys are mostly real hungry and full of fight which she seems to lack.
At Talledaga and Richmond Jr. is putting a young Cdn. driver from northern Ont. in the #7. Steve Arpin who just won the last two ARCA races at Salem and Texas.
He will be a Nationwide rookie.

Drifter...I bet you Arpin can do better than being lapped in the first 30 laps....lol

[AussieV8]

When she went to AGR at the time they had the best car and managed one win.

Even that was only fuel mileage and not pure speed, not to mention the fact it was a depleted field with all the ex-CART guys running Long Beach.

[EagleEye]

Which was probably the first car on track she has passed all year (and that is not embellishing).
Danica is a competent and steady DRIVER. She is not a RACER though. HUGE difference.

I believe she can drive but I do not view her as a racer at this time. I thought I specified that, my bad if i did not.

I found it interesting that when I asked drivers last year to rank the top ten they drive against, she failed to make the list. That says a lot.

[EagleEye]

Comparing her to Christian is an insult to Christian. He never lived up to his promise, but he was a decent journeyman driver and could actually challenge the front at times.



Since I know them both, I feel I can provide a fair evaluation. The more I think about it, the more the comparison fits.

Both had talent, both drove for capable teams, with good engineering resources. Both were distracted by by things outside of racing. Both enjoyed the night life to the fullest.

Danica changed a bit when she got married, but the focus is 95% on her "brand", 5% driving. Christian won late in his career, after he settled down a bit.

[beachbum]

Since I know them both, I feel I can provide a fair evaluation. The more I think about it, the more the comparison fits.

Both had talent, both drove for capable teams, with good engineering resources. Both were distracted by by things outside of racing. Both enjoyed the night life to the fullest.

Danica changed a bit when she got married, but the focus is 95% on her "brand", 5% driving. Christian won late in his career, after he settled down a bit.Fair enough. Obviously, I don't know either driver but that fits with what has been written or hinted about both.

[TURN3]

Fair enough. Obviously, I don't know either driver but that fits with what has been written or hinted about both.

But that still goes to imply the notion Danica has "talent" is true. I think that is a compliment paid by a person trying very generous and compasionate. To add to my previous point...she came to RLR when they were one of the dominate teams...they regressed...she came to AGR when they were the dominate team...they've regressed every year since. She does not have "talent" of a professional race car driver at the top level, period.

[beachbum]

But that still goes to imply the notion Danica has "talent" is true. I think that is a compliment paid by a person trying very generous and compasionate. To add to my previous point...she came to RLR when they were one of the dominate teams...they regressed...she came to AGR when they were the dominate team...they've regressed every year since. She does not have "talent" of a professional race car driver at the top level, period.I tend to disagree. Danica has enough talent to hustle an Indy car fairly well. At times, she has shown the ability to pull a quick lap out of the hat. But IMHO EagleEye has it right. 95% of her focus is on her "brand" and she has relied on other "talents" rather than develop her driving. She may be a decent driver, but she isn't much of a racer. For the past few years (especially last year) she seems to have settled into just circulating and picking up whatever crumbs are left behind when others (who are actually racing) make mistakes. With decent speed, some of those crumbs were pretty nice.

In her early years, it was fairly obvious that no drivers raced her very hard. Dixon considered her a menace because she couldn't hold a consistent line. It seems like a lot of drivers just let her go or just got out of her way. With the hype machine running full steam, criticism of her was suppressed and even today very few racing people talk candidly about her. It is all "bunnies and rainbows". But a few of the candid remarks have been pretty scathing and she has left a lot of scorched bunnies in her wake.

When she was with RLR, she had the best oval equipment and a huge weight advantage so she was pretty quick. Yet she couldn't translate that into success. Later a couple drivers started racing her hard (Carpenter comes to mind) and quickly found she could be intimidated. I think that is when the "gaining" -5 positions on restarts came from. She has tried to be more aggressive, but it seems to have backfired most of the time. She just doesn't have the racing talent to pull it off. So she hugs the bottom on ovals and mostly races by herself at most tracks. The fact that she passed Simona at Long Beach was noteworthy indicates just how rare that is.

IMHO, she has driving talent, but either doesn't care or doesn't know how to develop that into being an all around race driver. I suspect the latter. She can still throw up a good lap from time to time, so it is entirely possible to see her qualify near the front. But the depth and quality of the field keeps improving and I suspect her results will slowly deteriorate. When the results aren't there, her personality (or lack thereof) may have a bigger negative impact. At some point, reality will overtake hype and the racing media can move on to covering real racers, not over hyped curiosities.

[TURN3]

Both EE and BB make great points but yet disagree with me on the talent issue. I guess it comes down to definition of talent, and to that interpretation we can disagree. To me, all of your posts are very factual and observative. But in this thread they also describe to me a person I don't consider to have talent (regardless of who they are directed at). Very good analysis on both your parts but we obviously define "talent" differently. Dario, Dixon, Briscoe, Helio, Will, Justin, RHR, TK, etc...they all have "talent". Technically, Danica does too but I think it is about Barber Pro level...where she still was out-performed.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Kath Legge won two races in Atlantics against a deeper field, and she isn't in the IRL, so where anyone would use her records in FF or Atlantics is beyond me entirely.

Patrick was up against Jon Fogarty, Ryan Dalziel, Andrew Ranger, Ronnie Bremer, Bryan Sellers, Alex Figge and Jonathan Bomarito. Legge was up against Charles Zwolsman, Tonis Kasamets, Antoine Bessette, Andreas Wirth, David Martinez and Al Unser III. Personally, I feel the former is a deeper field than the latter.

Bear in mind, I'm not arguing for or against Danica, I don't really care about where this debate is going because I don't really care about her. My argument only concerns the statement regarding the depth of the 2004 and 2005 Atlantic fields.

[beachbum]

Both EE and BB make great points but yet disagree with me on the talent issue. I guess it comes down to definition of talent, and to that interpretation we can disagree. To me, all of your posts are very factual and observative. But in this thread they also describe to me a person I don't consider to have talent (regardless of who they are directed at). Very good analysis on both your parts but we obviously define "talent" differently. Dario, Dixon, Briscoe, Helio, Will, Justin, RHR, TK, etc...they all have "talent". Technically, Danica does too but I think it is about Barber Pro level...where she still was out-performed.There are many types of driving "talents". IMHO, there is ample evidence she has the talent to drive an IRL car at competitive speeds. It takes a certain level of talent to do that and she has proven that with the occasional good result.

But if you define talent as the ability to race hard, create and use a strategy to pass other drivers on track, set up a car, or even find the best race lines, she isn't very talented in those areas. The result is that she has enough speed to often qualify fairly well or even take advantage of a team using pit strategy to get her to or near the front. But there is almost no danger of her racing to the front.

There are quite a few journeyman racers who fit the same mold. She isn't the worst who has raced at this level by any means. But the main gripes by many fans are that she isn't nearly as good as the hype and she doesn't have the ability or dedication to develop any more than she has. Quite a few (including myself) are offended that she got where she is by playing off her "other talents" and living off the fantasies of sophomoric thinking people.

My take is that she will always just be an average pro at best who happens to be in excellent equipment that makes her look a lot better than she is. She gets attention (even here) that far overshadows her value as a race driver alone. If all she had to bring to the show was her racing talent, she would not be in the IRL.

Now when she gets to NASCAR......... IMHO, that experiment won't last long as she hasn't shown any talent in those cars.

[TURN3]

You "respect" a driver for having the ability to secure sponsorship? I'm thinking in racing terms and I don't see where any respect is offered on the track due to fortunate business associations. I don't disrespect Danica for using sex appeal to sell, that is the society we live in like it or not (and I generally do!). But if you respect her for that then you respect Milka, Moraes, Viso, etc. I realize this is all a product of the times with the state of racing in general and the economy. Fact is though, Danica isn't sniffing a ride in Indycar if teams were on stable financial backing. You'd have Tracy, Rahal, Hinch, RHR (full-time), Bourdais, Doornbos, Jani, Bomarito (sp), etc. etc. etc. I'm leaving off a ton of names I realize but you get the point. She is a product of the environment and while she isn't the "worst" Indycar driver even she certainly doesn't rank in the top 20-25 of current or currently available drivers either. She's on track because she can sell with sex appeal, period.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Patrick was up against Jon Fogarty, Ryan Dalziel, Andrew Ranger, Ronnie Bremer, Bryan Sellers, Alex Figge and Jonathan Bomarito. Legge was up against Charles Zwolsman, Tonis Kasamets, Antoine Bessette, Andreas Wirth, David Martinez and Al Unser III. Personally, I feel the former is a deeper field than the latter.

Bear in mind, I'm not arguing for or against Danica, I don't really care about where this debate is going because I don't really care about her. My argument only concerns the statement regarding the depth of the 2004 and 2005 Atlantic fields.

She was in Atlantics against a shallower field. Leave it to me to rely on my ancedotal memory mind you...I forgot about Fogarty. I sure as heck didn't remember Ranger in there.

I do remember a 14 car field at Toronto, and she was 12th or 13th...

I also remember Kat Legge going around Zwolsman ( a better driver than some of the guys in the IRL now) at Edmonton and winning at Long Beach as well. THere is NO footage that dramatic of Patrick doing anything LIKE that..

So while you are very correct to point out the great drivers, I will just point out she didn't actually race them much. Kat Legge beat all who were with her 2 times in her season of Atlantics...and Kat was in over her head in ChampCar.

I just think much of what is done and said about Danica all comes back to the fact she is a "hot" girl, and plays up to the part. She wants to be taken seriously as a race car driver in the same way Anna Kournakova went about telling people how much she wanted to be taken seriously in tennis. Well we know how many tournaments ole Anna actually won.

[anthonyvop]

Ms. Patrick has been a Professional Race Car driver for almost 10 years. Her total wins amount to just................1

Can you name me any other driver with that record and still call them "A Talent"?

[TURN3]

Ms. Patrick has been a Professional Race Car driver for almost 10 years. Her total wins amount to just................1

Can you name me any other driver with that record and still call them "A Talent"?

To enhance your point, this is actually her 13th professional year. I had previously though this was her 14th but just looked up where she started pro in Europe at 16, She's 28 now. And it isn't about just wins, of which you pointed out she has 1 where we all know the circumstances, look at the podiums she has in that time! A handful, yes, but in 13 seasons!!!!! Most of that is agains watered down competition in the lower ranks and IRL until the merger! Clearly she's not an 'A' talent as you pointed out.

[beachgirl]

Well, in the other Series, Steve Arpin qualified 4th for the Nationwide race in the #7. It's going to be fascinating in June when Danica goes back to Nationwide. Guess we'll really know then if it's the car, or Danica, huh?

[TURN3]

Well, in the other Series, Steve Arpin qualified 4th for the Nationwide race in the #7. It's going to be fascinating in June when Danica goes back to Nationwide. Guess we'll really know then if it's the car, or Danica, huh?

Don't we already really know??? :o

[beachgirl]

Don't we already really know??? :o

I was playing nice. Trying to turn a new leaf. Sorta.

[IMSA]

You people are unreal! Bash all you want, but I bet none of you have the balls to even do what Danica does each race!

How soon people forget she finished 5th in the points last season. Actually the best of the rest -- behind the four cars from Ganassi and Penske. This is in a very tight field with many excellent drivers.

Yes this girl has talent and has shown in year in year out. She is having a tough couple of races and now is cannot drive?

[TURN3]

You people are unreal! Bash all you want, but I bet none of you have the balls to even do what Danica does each race!

How soon people forget she finished 5th in the points last season. Actually the best of the rest -- behind the four cars from Ganassi and Penske. This is in a very tight field with many excellent drivers.

Yes this girl has talent and has shown in year in year out. She is having a tough couple of races and now is cannot drive?

Well, I for one, reference the fact she had NEVER been competitive. This isn't new, those of us on this forum that are realistic and objective have been pointing this out for a few years now. It is people like you that fall into the trap that "oh she finished 5th in points", obviously she is the fifth most amazing driver out there then, right? Wrong, she is a crumb collector. How many passes did she make last year TOTAL!? Hint: you can count them on your hands. As has been said over and over in this thread and numerous others, she does not have the ability to set up a car, does not have the courage to race wheel to wheel where, her teammates can't work with her, nor can her engineers and mechanics, her equipment is as good as it gets (oh wait, AA has regressed since she's been there to offer nothing).

So you are clear, this isn't because she's had a couple of "bad" races. You can count her "good" races on ONE hand through 13 years now. Hopefully this condensed version of why she sucks will allow you to see the light. If not, you and DFan should start a separate section called "DreamWeaver" or something...so I don't have to see fiction in a board which is non-fiction.

[SarahFan]

shes a ***** who would never have seen the bigs had tony not split sport.....

IMO of course.....YMMV

[rifraf]

Ms. Patrick has been a Professional Race Car driver for almost 10 years. Her total wins amount to just................1

Can you name me any other driver with that record and still call them "A Talent"?

Alex Tagliani.

[Easy Drifter]

IMSA I raced pro for ten years when things were a h--- of a lot more dangerous than they are today.
You are right I couldn't do it today but then I am in my 70's.
Danica is not a bad driver of race cars but she is not a race driver.
There is a big difference.

[TURN3]

Alex Tagliani.

That is a very good call, throw in Vitor Meira for kicks (0 wins). I would call both of them above average drivers but who knows where each of us draw the line for an "A" class driver. One thing I do know is that both Alex and Vitor will drive the wheels off of a car and challenge for W's, even with equipment that isn't on par with the big 3. I highly doubt anybody will win an argument that Danica is more talented than either of these 2...what does that tell us?

[beachgirl]

You people are unreal! Bash all you want, but I bet none of you have the balls to even do what Danica does each race!



Danica doesn't have the balls to do what I did every race I raced.

[harvick#1]

You people are unreal! Bash all you want, but I bet none of you have the balls to even do what Danica does each race!


I wasn't born with a silver spoon up my butt. I never had to chance to play the sports I love the most when I was younger because my parents didnt have the money

[anthonyvop]

Alex Tagliani.

Wrong!

Tags has 8 other professional wins.
6 wins in Atlantics
1 in the Canadian Tire NASCAR Series
1 in the Esso Protec/BF Goodrich Formula 1600 Series Championship

Even with those he didn't have a full time ride for 3 years and the only reason he is running now is because he started his own team.


Next!

[beachbum]

You people are unreal! Bash all you want, but I bet none of you have the balls to even do what Danica does each race!
Obviously, you don't follow this forum very much. There are people here who have raced, some whom have worked on race teams, some who have worked in support tasks like corner workers. They have been on the inside of racing, not just following on an internet blog where the biggest risk of injury is carpal tunnel syndrome. All of them had the "balls" to actually make sacrifices and live the dream, not just talk about it.

What is striking to me is how people who have lived racing view Danica and talk about her. They follow a couple paths. There is the nice politically correct statements that could easily be categorized as "faint praise", silence, or in some cases, open criticism. When she gets praise, it is rarely on her driving, but on her ability to market her "brand". A few former associates (drivers and others) have publicly stated they will someday "tell all" when the mystique and celebrity worship die down. But that reserve about talking about her is slowing going away as time goes on.

If you are one who thinks she is great, fine. But don't try to suggest that people who are critical of that opinion must be a bunch of losers.

[TURN3]

Wrong!

Tags has 8 other professional wins.
6 wins in Atlantics
1 in the Canadian Tire NASCAR Series
1 in the Esso Protec/BF Goodrich Formula 1600 Series Championship

Even with those he didn't have a full time ride for 3 years and the only reason he is running now is because he started his own team.


Next!

I took it as referenced to the top rung myself. Tags absolutely was an accomplished racer in the ladder series but the fact is he has under-accomplished at the top. Still, a very talented racer and even in his little start-up team a threat to win, if not at least run up front.

[Scotty G.]

shes a ***** who would never have seen the bigs had tony not split sport.....

IMO of course.....YMMV


Sorry, but she would have gotten to Indy Cars no matter what.

$$$ matters. And she would have always been able to bring $$$ and her overrated physical features.

Remember, Dean Hall, Carlos Guerrero, Marco Greco, Lyn St. James and King Hiro "saw the bigs" long before there was "a split". And she is a hell of a lot better then any of them.

She is a point-collecting "driver". She looks decent on tracks where her top flight engineered car is better then 75% of the field. She is not a "racer". Never has been. She isn't aggressive. She doesn't try and pass cars often (unless another female is driving). She is always been much much more about style over real substance.

Give her props for keeping her nose clean and getting to the checkards, while many around her (who are actually racing hard) are either too stupid or too unlucky to finish. Or her team gives her a great pit/fuel strategy that pays off with track position. That's how she finishes where she does. That's how its been for 5 full years now and it ain't changing now.

And people need to stick a sock in the "she finished 5th in points" stuff. Big freakin' deal. 2 teams (and 5 drivers) won all but 1 race last year. She was on the next best team. Marco was horrible last year. TK kept crashing and falling out of races. Mutoh was a mid-packer. The rest of the field was either too inexperienced and/or untalented or in grossly inferior equipment.

She finished 5th and never came close to competing for a race win (and no, she was never going to win at Indy last year). That's hard to do.

[beachbum]

Sorry, but she would have gotten to Indy Cars no matter what.

$$$ matters. And she would have always been able to bring $$$ and her overrated physical features.

Remember, Dean Hall, Carlos Guerrero, Marco Greco, Lyn St. James and King Hiro "saw the bigs" long before there was "a split". And she is a hell of a lot better then any of them.

She is a point-collecting "driver". She looks decent on tracks where her top flight engineered car is better then 75% of the field. She is not a "racer". Never has been. She isn't aggressive. She doesn't try and pass cars often (unless another female is driving). She is always been much much more about style over real substance.

Give her props for keeping her nose clean and getting to the checkards, while many around her (who are actually racing hard) are either too stupid or too unlucky to finish. Or her team gives her a great pit/fuel strategy that pays off with track position. That's how she finishes where she does. That's how its been for 5 full years now and it ain't changing now.

And people need to stick a sock in the "she finished 5th in points" stuff. Big freakin' deal. 2 teams (and 5 drivers) won all but 1 race last year. She was on the next best team. Marco was horrible last year. TK kept crashing and falling out of races. Mutoh was a mid-packer. The rest of the field was either too inexperienced and/or untalented or in grossly inferior equipment.

She finished 5th and never came close to competing for a race win (and no, she was never going to win at Indy last year). That's hard to do.
Well said.

While I may not agree that AGR was the best team, they certainly were one of the "big three" and the best of the rest.

[markabilly]

There are quite a few journeyman racers who fit the same mold. She isn't the worst who has raced at this level by any means. But the main gripes by many fans are that she isn't nearly as good as the hype and she doesn't have the ability or dedication to develop any more than she has. Quite a few (including myself) are offended that she got where she is by playing off her "other talents" and living off the fantasies of sophomoric thinking people.
.
not me, not at all.....just check out the sig....
She has real talent....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RWQ_vlySxE&feature=related

careful what you wish for, you might get it

Bottom line, she is the only SUPERSTAR that the IRL has who gets press....and when she is gone, sliding into obscurity in Nascar, along with the years pulling down her assets, there is nobody to replace her, and IRL will follow champ car to the grave... :(

[SarahFan]

Sorry, but she would have gotten to Indy Cars no matter what.

.

that statement needs a big fat IMO


*theres a major difference between buying a ride and finding sponsorship

[SarahFan]

not me, not at all.....just check out the sig....
She has real talent....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RWQ_vlySxE&feature=related

careful what you wish for, you might get it

Bottom line, she is the only SUPERSTAR that the IRL has who gets press....and when she is gone, sliding into obscurity in Nascar, along with the years pulling down her assets, there is nobody to replace her, and IRL will follow champ car to the grave... :(


does garnering press make you a superstar?

[markabilly]

does garnering press make you a superstar?

yes, for certain.....perception is reality and reality is NOT perception

Face it, in terms of getting the media attention on IRL races, she is it. :(

If Champ cars had her as a "star" with them instead of the IRL, CC probably still be around and the IRL gone


Tis a shame that OWR in the USA has come to this...

[SarahFan]

yes, for certain.....perception is reality and reality is NOT perception

Face it, in terms of getting the media attention on IRL races, she is it. :(

If Champ cars had her as a "star" with them instead of the IRL, CC probably still be around and the IRL gone


Tis a shame that OWR in the USA has come to this...

YMMV....yes she is a media star....

BUT IMO she is not a superstar

[TURN3]

Indycar isn't going anywhere because of or not because of her. Her media attention helped during the weakest of weak years but has steadily worn off (especially last year and into this year). She still probably gets more media attention than most other drivers but the playing field has certainly leveled as the truth about her becomes more obvious to the casual fans. The TV ratings have remained virtually unchanged, teams haven't been able to find sponsorships any easier, and IZOD came on board knowing she's likely going to NASCAR. (I mention IZOD because they are the reason for the marginal improvement in ratings so far this year).

Now contrary to these observations in Indycar, NASCAR has taken the myth factor over and has ran with it on their unknowledgable fan base. She has another 2 years of opportunity there and as I called 3 years ago, it is game set match for miss Danica. She may cling to a ride for 1 more contract after that but by then the NASCAR fan base will have gone the same way as that of the Indycar fan base. You can only hide and over-glorify someboy so long and then it is over unless you can perform.

**Wanted to mention that at Long Beach, I realized it was actually the first event I'd been to where Danica was racing since the old IRL days at Phoenix, before DanicaMania. I was surprised that people wearing Danica gear where few and far between. I saw more people wearing stuff from years and teams gone by than hers. It wasn't non-existent but certainly not the overwhelming cascade that has been in other years and events. Her hauler didn't have a large crowd, a few more people there than at some of the ALMS haulers. I'm not saying her gear isn't still the best selling but there absolutely was a noticeable change in what I've seen on TV from years before. The "SHINE" has been knocked down by a coat of flat black from what I see.

[markabilly]

BUT IMO she is not a superstar
there you go again, confusing perception and reality....talent and stardom...
I think of Danica and talent, and then i think of Miley Cyrus and talent, and get all confused until I remember perception is reality.......

[SarahFan]

there you go again, confusing perception and reality....talent and stardom...
I think of Danica and talent, and then i think of Miley Cyrus and talent, and get all confused until I remember perception is reality.......

no..

there you go again confusing a media star with a superstar

[anthonyvop]

I took it as referenced to the top rung myself. Tags absolutely was an accomplished racer in the ladder series but the fact is he has under-accomplished at the top. Still, a very talented racer and even in his little start-up team a threat to win, if not at least run up front.


I stated:


Ms. Patrick has been a Professional Race Car driver for almost 10 years. Her total wins amount to just................1

Can you name me any other driver with that record and still call them "A Talent"?

Then somebody stated Alex Tagliani. Tags has several professional wins under his belt and is a much more accomplished driver than Ms, Patrick.

[beachgirl]

Where would Danica's "marketability" be if she hadn't done the trashy FMH photoshoot, and was relying on talent, like most everyone else? Keep the talent level the same, the spoiled brat attitude the same, but no trashy (IMHO) photoshoots and PimpDaddy ads? Just food for thought.

[markabilly]

no..

there you go again confusing a media star with a superstar


IRL came to TMS, and I happenned to be there for last year's race.....the Dallas Morning news had only a brief mention about the race, along with some TV stations and it was all about danica....take that DP away, and reading the papers or listening to the news, there would not have even been a whisper about the race. Zero. and guess how many other names were mentioned before the race? Zero
and the headlines and news was where Danica placed.....if you wanted to know who won, it was mentiond somewhere, buried in the small print, maybe

In this world, the days when talents like Mario, Rutherford, Sneva, Foyt and even Zanardi, who were superstars in their day....even Tony Stewart.... are gone.......replaced by media stars.....or i should say, "one and only media star" sort of like Miley and the Jonas brothers replacing the likes Springsteen, beatles, Stones and so on..


People watch to see names/drivers they love to see and who they associated/identified with as to the racing. That is what brings SPONSORS!!!!the lifeblood, like it or not, yea purists (who I tend to be one of those, as I hate ads palstered all over cars, but that is life...)

And frankly, all the IRL has is Penske and Danica whose names the motor racing public might recognize....and one of them don't drive race cars...although sometimes i can not figure out which one ..otherwise


What is there left after danica? Who? Castroneverwas? :rotflmao:
Was he not the big superstar of that other series....Champ cars???????
All the good that did...

Sad to see, so very sad.

[TURN3]

IRL came to TMS, and I happenned to be there for last year's race.....the Dallas Morning news had only a brief mention about the race, along with some TV stations and it was all about danica....take that DP away, and reading the papers or listening to the news, there would not have even been a whisper about the race. Zero. and guess how many other names were mentioned before the race? Zero
and the headlines and news was where Danica placed.....if you wanted to know who won, it was mentiond somewhere, buried in the small print, maybe

In this world, the days when talents like Mario, Rutherford, Sneva, Foyt and even Zanardi, who were superstars in their day....even Tony Stewart.... are gone.......replaced by media stars.....or i should say, "one and only media star" sort of like Miley and the Jonas brothers replacing the likes Springsteen, beatles, Stones and so on..


People watch to see names/drivers they love to see and who they associated/identified with as to the racing. That is what brings SPONSORS!!!!the lifeblood, like it or not, yea purists (who I tend to be one of those, as I hate ads palstered all over cars, but that is life...)

And frankly, all the IRL has is Penske and Danica whose names the motor racing public might recognize....and one of them don't drive race cars...although sometimes i can not figure out which one ..otherwise


What is there left after danica? Who? Castroneverwas? :rotflmao:
Was he not the big superstar of that other series....Champ cars???????
All the good that did...

Sad to see, so very sad.

It seems maybe you're getting lost in your own comment about perception and reality. Even if "reality" is as accurate as you say about the papers around last year's Texas race, do you honestly think that if Danica wasn't there there would have been ZERO mention of the race? I think Danica is the convenient and easy story to write but by no means does Indycar disappear if Danica doesn't show up, sorry it doesn't work that way.

[markabilly]

It seems maybe you're getting lost in your own comment about perception and reality. Even if "reality" is as accurate as you say about the papers around last year's Texas race, do you honestly think that if Danica wasn't there there would have been ZERO mention of the race? I think Danica is the convenient and easy story to write but by no means does Indycar disappear if Danica doesn't show up, sorry it doesn't work that way.
Unfortunately BEFORE DANICA nearly won Indy and started stripping down for PR , there was NO mention of the race after the first one....even the first race got little mention compared to the nascar races....indeed, the champ car race that never was got far far more PR,

But not for the drivers, it was most all because Paul Newman was there....

[markabilly]

Where would Danica's "marketability" be if she hadn't done the trashy FMH photoshoot, and was relying on talent, like most everyone else? Keep the talent level the same, the spoiled brat attitude the same, but no trashy (IMHO) photoshoots and PimpDaddy ads? Just food for thought.
markabilly says that weren't no trashy stuff that was markabillity art.....

[TURN3]

Unfortunately BEFORE DANICA nearly won Indy and started stripping down for PR , there was NO mention of the race after the first one....even the first race got little mention compared to the nascar races....indeed, the champ car race that never was got far far more PR,

But not for the drivers, it was most all because Paul Newman was there....

Are you talking about 5 or 6 years ago? I can only assume with your referrence to when Danica "almost won" Indy...not sure when that was. Maybe you mean the year she was in the lead without enough fuel to go the distance at full-rich. "Almost" winning Indy is what Rick Mears did when Gordy beat him, "Almost" winning Indy is what Scott Goodyear did when Al Jr. beat him, not sure how being passed with 14 laps or so to go is "Almost" winning anything when you end up 4th a straightaway behind the actual winner.

If that is the timeframe you were referring to, I misunterstood you so my reply may not have made sense. Either way, Indycar/CART/IRL/Champcar/USAC/AAA existed well before Danica and it or some new evolution of it will exist well past Danica's existence in another 2 years or so. Danica was more important during her first 2+ years probably 3 of her career while the split was winding down but what was even more important? Indy. It may come a surprise to some but Indy existed before Danica and in fact will also exist well past her. If it weren't for Danica spinning and taking out 3 contenders the year she lead, she would never have been out of sequence to be in a position to lead without enough fuel. Fact is that happened and she led a few laps by circumstanes that she created...and Indy is what made her a star...not vice versa.

[Sonic]

What strikes me with Danica is that after she won her first (only) race, we were all confidently told that this was it! The monkey was off her back and the wins would come thick and fast - a championship challenge was even on the cards. And what have we had since? Squat!

I wonder if she believes her own hype or if she is just a clever business woman making the most of her limited racing "ability"?

[garyshell]

Remember, Dean Hall, Carlos Guerrero, Marco Greco, Lyn St. James and King Hiro "saw the bigs" long before there was "a split". And she is a hell of a lot better then any of them.


While I agree with everything else in your post, I have to point out, that unless you are talking solely about Lyn's time in the IRL, I have to say Danica can't hold a candle to Lyn. Lyn had two wins at the Daytona 24 hour, one win at Sebring, ran twice at Le Mans and had a solo win in IMSA at Watkins Glen.

Lyn's IRL career was lackluster at best, but her sports car outings were nothing to sneeze at.

Gary

[beachbum]

markabilly says that weren't no trashy stuff that was markabillity art.....Just because you are star struck doesn't mean the rest of the world is.

I once watched all types of racing, including NASCAR's Nationwide series. I turned it off this year. The Danica!, Danica!, Danica!, Danica!, Danica!, Danica! was disgusting.

[NickFalzone]

I think the mistake here is believing that a "star is born" rather than the reality these days: "a star is made". Danica is a star because media companies have promoted her. Granted, she had some looks and some OK driving ability to assist in their promotions. But Danica is the most popular and recognized star in IndyCar purely because corporations for several years now have put money into promoting her image. As the rodeo-guy we have in charge now has said on several occasions, the series needs to do the same for many of the other drivers in the field. Franchitti, Briscoe, Rahal, Hunter-Reay, and many others COULD be corporate "brands" should certain companies choose them. I think Simona could as well. IZOD has already started to promote many of them, and I think we will see a new "star" or two in the series within the next year. And it will NOT be a "coincidence" or a "star is born", it will simply be a lot of corporate money thrown at one or two individuals that gets their image into public consciousness.

[Scotty G.]

While I agree with everything else in your post, I have to point out, that unless you are talking solely about Lyn's time in the IRL, I have to say Danica can't hold a candle to Lyn. Lyn had two wins at the Daytona 24 hour, one win at Sebring, ran twice at Le Mans and had a solo win in IMSA at Watkins Glen.

Lyn's IRL career was lackluster at best, but her sports car outings were nothing to sneeze at.

Gary

Lyn was not a bad race driver. Her major problem was coming to Indy Cars so late in her career (at her advanced age).

Danica would have eventually paid her way into Indy Cars, whether there had ever been a split or not. And whether she ever won a race in her life or not before she got there.

Same way many did, in the 80's and 90's.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Lyn was not a bad race driver. Her major problem was coming to Indy Cars so late in her career (at her advanced age).

Danica would have eventually paid her way into Indy Cars, whether there had ever been a split or not. And whether she ever won a race in her life or not before she got there.

Same way many did, in the 80's and 90's.

Lyn is a class act, and you are right on Lyn for sure Scott.

As for Danica, no, I think she had taken advantage of a weaker Indycar world in the 00's.....in the early 90's she would have never gotten that close I don't believe.

AS for Danica's "star" power, she is the biggest name in a sport that has seen its TV ratings and influence disappear. For all the talk of what her loss to NASCAR will mean, I don't see a downside. Really don't...

[markabilly]

Are you talking about 5 or 6 years ago? I can only assume with your referrence to when Danica "almost won" Indy...not sure when that was. Maybe you mean the year she was in the lead without enough fuel to go the distance at full-rich. "Almost" winning Indy is what Rick Mears did when Gordy beat him, "Almost" winning Indy is what Scott Goodyear did when Al Jr. beat him, not sure how being passed with 14 laps or so to go is "Almost" winning anything when you end up 4th a straightaway behind the actual winner.

If that is the timeframe you were referring to, I misunterstood you so my reply may not have made sense. Either way, Indycar/CART/IRL/Champcar/USAC/AAA existed well before Danica and it or some new evolution of it will exist well past Danica's existence in another 2 years or so. Danica was more important during her first 2+ years probably 3 of her career while the split was winding down but what was even more important? Indy. It may come a surprise to some but Indy existed before Danica and in fact will also exist well past her. If it weren't for Danica spinning and taking out 3 contenders the year she lead, she would never have been out of sequence to be in a position to lead without enough fuel. Fact is that happened and she led a few laps by circumstanes that she created...and Indy is what made her a star...not vice versa.

Yes, all that is true, all true, and as you get older, something ten years ago, seems like last year, and just a couple of years ago, I watched men walk on the moon, live on TV, in living black and white----something many of you can not say!!!

Indy was the thing that created her and that was the race I was referencing; however, as time has passed, Indy has become far less than what it was.

As a youngster in the sixties, it was the OVERWHELMING race over everything else, including that backwoods feeder series known as F1 or LeMans, and Daytona was not even a blimp on the radar screen..... Unfortunately as to other open wheel racing, there was Waktins Glen and some USAC events that most folks pretty much ignored, but INDY WAS INDY!!!

And there was a time when the month of MAy was the RACE, and nothing else raced at Indy. Indeed, who would have ever thought stock cars, motocycles, and f1....

The final blow came with the split, and I figured whoever had Indy would be the survivor, but the split went on far too long, the magic disappearred, even from Indy.....and nascar filled the vaccum for many---and it says it all, when what i thought to be the last really talented potential superstar for either series that got himself major PR was Tony Stewart, and then he went nascar.....well....



So frankly even Indy will suffer greatly from TV viewership being down further, sponsor interest being down further, if DP blows and goes away...

and Indy better figure out a lifeline or else....it just becomes another racetrack for stock cars and motorcycles...

sad so sad, as I feel part of my heritage is being lost, year by year...

[markabilly]

I think the mistake here is believing that a "star is born" rather than the reality these days: "a star is made". Danica is a star because media companies have promoted her. Granted, she had some looks and some OK driving ability to assist in their promotions. But Danica is the most popular and recognized star in IndyCar purely because corporations for several years now have put money into promoting her image. As the rodeo-guy we have in charge now has said on several occasions, the series needs to do the same for many of the other drivers in the field. Franchitti, Briscoe, Rahal, Hunter-Reay, and many others COULD be corporate "brands" should certain companies choose them. I think Simona could as well. IZOD has already started to promote many of them, and I think we will see a new "star" or two in the series within the next year. And it will NOT be a "coincidence" or a "star is born", it will simply be a lot of corporate money thrown at one or two individuals that gets their image into public consciousness.

Dream on, they got nothing to offer to the media wizards...no pop, and none of them appear to be ground breaking, ie, a woman winning the Indy 500---those few moments when she lead the 500, whenever that was, that did it for her.....and why sarah fisher, lyn and the rest are still in the dark.

and DP has plenty of pop, even if it means taking a shower or two with the camera on....Yeah, I could not imagine, though it might happen, Rahal doing the shower scene with Hunter Reay, vis-a-vis my signature.... :dozey:


but the IRL better find something real soon....

[NickFalzone]

Dream on, they got nothing to offer to the media wizards...no pop, and none of them appear to be ground breaking, ie, a woman winning the Indy 500---those few moments when she lead the 500, whenever that was, that did it for her.....and why sarah fisher, lyn and the rest are still in the dark.

and DP has plenty of pop, even if it means taking a shower or two with the camera on....Yeah, I could not imagine, though it might happen, Rahal doing the shower scene with Hunter Reay, vis-a-vis my signature.... :dozey:


but the IRL better find something real soon....

NASCAR does it. IndyCar can do it. It's all about $$ and corporations spending it to promote these individuals. If Tony Stewart was in IndyCar now, he'd be just about as well known as Dario, Briscoe, or Hunter-Reay. But he's in NASCAR, and on the regular is seen on your TV selling Old Spice, previously Home Depot, etc. His "story" as a person does not matter one bit. NASCAR has at least 10-15 drivers right now that are as well promoted and in the public-consciousness as much as Danica. It's real easy to have that when large corporations put you in their ads on a regular basis.

[beachbum]

Dream on, they got nothing to offer to the media wizards...no pop, and none of them appear to be ground breaking, ie, a woman winning the Indy 500---those few moments when she lead the 500, whenever that was, that did it for her.....and why sarah fisher, lyn and the rest are still in the dark.

and DP has plenty of pop, even if it means taking a shower or two with the camera on....Yeah, I could not imagine, though it might happen, Rahal doing the shower scene with Hunter Reay, vis-a-vis my signature.... :dozey:


but the IRL better find something real soon....I get it! You are the guy in the pimpdaddy ad watching Danica take a shower!

Perhaps the problem is that other racing personalities have nothing to offer to you? You do seem easily impressed.

If you follow any of the press lately, Sarah Fisher for one has had a tremendous amount of positive press about her role as a driver /owner. Much of that has been in traditional media, not racing media. It has been widely reported that Simona had more media interest at Long Beach than the Danica! brand. But they may be marketing to a different demographic than yours so you didn't notice - no shower scenes and they had all of their clothes on.

The problem with "one hit wonders" is that they can create a lot of "pop" for a short time, but that bubble can burst very quickly if they can't follow that success up with similar repeat performances. Danica has always shown promise but that promise has never translated into the level of success on track suggested by her hype.

The only thing "groundbreaking" about Danica is that she never promoted herself as "just a driver". She played the sex card (often) to get ahead and still plays that card to maintain her celebrity. To some old time fans, she has made a mockery of the idea that drivers become heroes from racing success, not from activities unrelated to racing. She is a sideshow, not the main event.

Danica promotes the Danica brand, not the IRL. As soon as she ran one or two Nationwide races, some media was already calling her "NASCAR driver and former open wheel driver Danica Patrick". This whole stock car experiment may really backfire on any positive "pop" she has created for the IRL if she continues to be dismal in the cars. It would just be another affirmation for those NASCAR fans who think the IRL doesn't have quality drivers when the driver who was 5th place points can't take one of the best cars on the track and drive it fast enough to qualify on speed, or even keep it on the lead lap. They will remember that Kelly Bires did better on the same team and he got fired. The NASCAR forums are already buzzing with that topic. Her continued poor performance will be very negative press for the IRL. The only "pop" is the sound of the bubble bursting.

I am not surprised to see IZOD and the IRL working hard to promote drivers other that the "brand". They represent the true heart of open wheel, and promote the series, not themselves. I really don't think the image of the Danica! brand is either good for the IRL or effective for the IRL.. The brand is good for Danica, but she doesn't promote the IRL. When she is gone, she will be another interesting footnote about marketing novelty acts.

[markabilly]

I get it! You are the guy in the pimpdaddy ad watching Danica take a shower!

To some old time fans, she has made a mockery of the idea that drivers become heroes from racing success, not from activities unrelated to racing. She is a sideshow, not the main event.

.
Yes, I love my orange pimpdaddy suit, :up:

and if Sarah and any of the rest want to jump in shower, I will get my camera rolling :s mokin:

and yes, that would be me, an old time fan.....years before you were born.....the Sixties if you had bothered to read all my posts...... when the Indy cars still sounded like real screaming race cars, with real superstars like Gurney, Clark, Andretti (no NOT that one, the original), Foyt, Ruby (bet u never heard of him), Jones, Donohue, Rutherford and many others drove Indy, even as late as when Mansell drove Indy

Danica did not make a "mockery"; Indy, champ car and the IRL did that to themselves

and if you could detect what I really think, you would know that I do not think she should even be part of the sideshow....but she has become the main event, and to repeat, indy and the irl did that to themselves


:vader:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Markabilly, I would only make Danica part of the main event if SHE was part of the main event by winning. Promoting a driver who isn't there purely based on their results is unhealthy for the series. Selling the sizzle as opposed to the steak. What meat there is on the Danica story is pretty tough. She isn't up front week after week on speed. She finished 5th in points last year but no one is fooled. She got there by avoiding everyone while people like Tony Kanaan crashed or blew up trying to WIN and mixing it up.

Good racing, drivers who show their charisma behind the wheel are the ones you promote. Not the side show.

Danica goes to NASCAR, I suspect within a year the IRL will be probably be better off. NASCAR fans already think the IRL is a waste of time, and Danica will add to that I agree, but in the end, intelligent fans of racing will figure out in time that the IRL is just a different world, and you don't jump from one to the other and expect success. Given enough time, the jump can be made, but people in NASCAR are just so hung up on what they think racing should be, nothing rational or logical will change it. The average NASCAR fan doesn't care about the IRL and never did. Those who USED to watch the IRL should know better, and if the IRL gets better, will get those fans back. It is possible to watch and be a fan of both series. I do it all the time...

[markabilly]

Markabilly, I would only make Danica part of the main event if SHE was part of the main event by winning. Promoting a driver who isn't there purely based on their results is unhealthy for the series. ...
She ain't winning and her talent does not even qualify as a side show....unfortunately, she is and has been the IRL main event for far too long and now it is worse than merely being unhealthy for the series, but nobody to blame except the IRL and Indy

(and thos sorry reporters but u know what i think about reporters :down: )

[Mark in Oshawa]

She ain't winning and her talent does not even qualify as a side show....unfortunately, she is and has been the IRL main event for far too long and now it is worse than merely being unhealthy for the series, but nobody to blame except the IRL and Indy

(and thos sorry reporters but u know what i think about reporters :down: )

I blame ABC/ESPN really...

Danica got near the lead through clever fuel strategy when she was racing for Rahal at the Indy 500 and people got this sudden brain wave she was good at this racing thing.

The IRL has done nothing to stop the silliness but really, it is ABC/ESPN feeding this to the public. The reality is, their ratings have sucked downward in this period. I think a case might be made she has actually HURT ratings and the attention span of the North American racing fan...

[beachbum]

...an old time fan.....years before you were born.....the Sixties if you had bothered to read all my posts...... I saw my first Indy car race at Langhorne - when it was dirt. I listened on the radio to Jack Brabham at Indy. I remember my grandfather complaining he didn't think he would go to Daytona if they weren't going to race on the beach anymore. The new track was going to ruin racing when it was opened. I could have gone to one of the Stones first US concerts but since nobody knew who they were, the free tickets weren't enough to get me to go. (I heard from my buddies it was a great concert)

I am of a generation that can "proudly" state - if you remember the 60's, you weren't there. So keep your age insults to yourself.

Incidentally, I met Mark Donohue at an SAE meeting -when I was in college. A very nice down to earth guy who talked racing until they turned the lights out on us. And I do know who Lloyd Ruby is, and Eddie Sachs, Vuky, Sam Hanks, Roger Ward, Johnny Thomson, Don Branson, Hurtubise .......... remember them?

[markabilly]

I am of a generation that can "proudly" state - if you remember the 60's, you weren't there. So keep your age insults to yourself.
....................
remember them?
well godurnit, you are an old fart. Must be older than drifter and that is ancient.

The ones who do remember the sixties, like me, is cause I weren't old enough to engage in stuff that erroded the memory...... but things do get sort of blurry about 69 when I owned the road...until i took a little trip in the very early 70's 'in country" .......

Vuky was a couple of years before I became aware.

But you got to admit, it is sad to see the heritage drug down like it has the last few years, ain't it?

esp when self-inflicted

[markabilly]

and from the very banner flying over this thread....err.....you guys were all saying what???



Danica Patrick Honda Film (http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=BEphiiAzVS6ToAs-Y6AbD-tmPA6TCvcMBmveLpA7AjbcBwKIzEAEYASDylPwBOABQtbjG4Pr _____AWDJrouN5KTAE7IBGHd3dy5tb3RvcnNwb3J0Zm9ydW1zL mNvbboBCTcyOHg5MF9hc8gBAdoBPWh0dHA6Ly93d3cubW90b3J zcG9ydGZvcnVtcy5jb20vZm9ydW1zL2ZvcnVtZGlzcGxheS5wa HA_Zj0xMDnIArTIlRKoAwHIAwfoA7QB6AOmBvUDAAEAwA&num=1&sig=AGiWqtzeLP9849OpxZnViBYyIlIMspHvCg&client=ca-pub-4215769602597401&adurl=http://pixel1097.everesttech.net/1097/rq/3/c_4f6f5c566c0edfa36e1d8d08facb5acd_3740177008/url%3Dhttp%253A//dreams.honda.com/stories/failure-the-secret-to-success/&nm=23)
Watch now to discover the upside of failure through Danica Patrick.

www.honda.com (http://www.honda.com)



SEE THE WROLD SPINNING ROUND ROUND AND ROUND

[markabilly]

I blame ABC/ESPN really...

Danica got near the lead through clever fuel strategy when she was racing for Rahal at the Indy 500 and people got this sudden brain wave she was good at this racing thing.

The IRL has done nothing to stop the silliness but really, it is ABC/ESPN feeding this to the public. The reality is, their ratings have sucked downward in this period. I think a case might be made she has actually HURT ratings and the attention span of the North American racing fan...
I think it would have only been worse without her, because there was nothing else....everybody else done gone nascar. Mind you all, I don't like it, but just tellin it as it is....

and see the media can even put its own spin on it..."discover the upside of failure"......spinnin round and round, where she goes nobody knows...hey now, discover the upside of having your brains all sucked out your nostril....

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think it would have only been worse without her, because there was nothing else....everybody else done gone nascar. Mind you all, I don't like it, but just tellin it as it is....

and see the media can even put its own spin on it..."discover the upside of failure"......spinnin round and round, where she goes nobody knows...hey now, discover the upside of having your brains all sucked out your nostril....

Well, considering how they make up how she is competitive in situations where she clearly isn't, I am sure they could have plucked someone, say Scott Dixon and made him a media darling or something. Someone with wins....that would have been really novel don't you think?

[markabilly]

Well, considering how they make up how she is competitive in situations where she clearly isn't, I am sure they could have plucked someone, say Scott Dixon and made him a media darling or something. Someone with wins....that would have been really novel don't you think?
Who?
Is this Dixon female?
Did Dixon "almost win" Indy as a female?
Does Dixon look good laying on a car, nearly naked?
How many SI swimsuit editions has this Dixon appeared, nearly naked?
ever seen one banner with Dixon on this forum?
...or a godaddy commercial?
Not even a good name, like DAN-ne-KA

Maybe if he or she ever wins a race or two, then moves to Nascar for real superstadom....Dixie and Dixon, there is a combo in that

If I were nascar and heard DANneKA was coming, I would change out the locks and hide the keys.....

[beachbum]

But you got to admit, it is sad to see the heritage drug down like it has the last few years, ain't it?Nope, not at all. One of the life lessons I have learned it that time marches on. You can't turn back the clock. I have also learned that hindsight almost always distorts the truth. We remember the good things and skip the bad.

I had an advantage growing up of knowing a bit more of the inside of racing that some fans. My grandfather was a huge race fan and personally knew a lot of the people in the sport. He was a good friend of Tom McCahill, so he got to meet some interesting people like Smokey Yunick (who rebuilt his new Chrysler 300's front suspension in the middle of speed weeks between working on race cars). Back in the day wasn't all that great. Right after I got married, our next door neighbor was an admitted pit bunny and dated Bill Simpson and Steve Krisiloff, so we got to hear a lot about open wheel as well. It wasn't as glamorous as nostalgia would suggest. I was also involved in various competition and racing scenes for many years and lived the gypsy life.

IMHO, the real heritage of the past involves a bunch of speed junkies who lived like poor gypsies (because most were) and risked life and limb because they loved racing and mainly beating the other guy (or lady). Yes women have been in racing a long time. Did you know that in 1988-89 there were 4 women racing AMA Pro Superbike, a couple on a regular basis? Another would show up once in a while and is still racing cars today. All of them make Danica look like a whiny wimp. Racing wasn't glamorous, TV coverage wasn't much except for "major" events, and very few racers earned a living at it.

All of that heritage is why I have little respect for Danica. She didn't earn her status in racing by working her way up with racing sucesses. She latched onto a couple sugar daddies (ok mentors), chucked her clothes to play the sex card, and parlayed her meager assets into fame and fortune. She didn't earn her way to the top, she bought her way to the top with those assets. She has just enough driving talent to hang onto her status, as long as she has the backers to keep her there

As for the implication that "the split" destroyed open wheel, some "fans" haven't been around long enough to have seen the battles between other sanctioning bodies and the rise and fall of great racing series. What we have today is the survival of the fittest, a sort of morphing between F5000, European style racing, and the more traditional Indy car oval racing.

Heritage may be nice to reminisce about, built it is just a building block along the way. Today we have probably one of the most competitive periods in open wheel - ever. On any given weekend, the competition is very tight. The spread across the field is very small. Sure, the best teams dominate - they always have. But even the small teams in the back still have a chance to run well and get a good result. It isn't perfect, but racing has never been perfect. That why they run the races.

I may be "old" in your eyes, but i don't live in the past.

Age is a number, old is an attitude.

Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional.

But acting like a 12 year old is just immature. You sure have some strange attitudes about women. I guess you have never spent much time around one who is competitive, driven, and tough. (or married to one like I have been for a long time). They seem to be just sex objects to you. Sad.

[markabilly]

As for the implication that "the split" destroyed open wheel, some "fans" haven't been around long enough to have seen the battles between other sanctioning bodies and the rise and fall of great racing series. What we have today is the survival of the fittest, a sort of morphing between F5000, European style racing, and the more traditional Indy car oval racing.

.

??

"great racing series" has never included the IRL, despite the presence of Indy, which for that reason alone, permitted it to linger on as a series, rather than just one race at Indy.
Just temporary survival of the least mortally wounded who is slowly bleeding out with its one small bandage about to jump ship.

But i guess it is not much to be joyful about when Daneka playing her sex card (upon THAT i can agree) is all you got left with the IRL after some great OW racing from a number of years ago before the split became so wide :(
Indy 500 is the only race that helped keep it afloat but like the Titanic , seems to have some leaking problems. But not too worry, there is always the Brickyard 400, motogp and even a return of F1

[beachbum]

??

"great racing series" has never included the IRL, despite the presence of Indy, which for that reason alone, permitted it to linger on as a series, rather than just one race at Indy.
Just temporary survival of the least mortally wounded who is slowly bleeding out with its one small bandage about to jump ship.

But i guess it is not much to be joyful about when Daneka playing her sex card (upon THAT i can agree) is all you got left with the IRL after some great OW racing from a number of years ago before the split became so wide :(
Indy 500 is the only race that helped keep it afloat but like the Titanic , seems to have some leaking problems. But not too worry, there is always the Brickyard 400, motogp and even a return of F1I take it that you were on the "other" side of the split. That war is over - move on.

[TURN3]

Did Dixon "almost win" Indy as a female?

That is 2x you've said this. What the bleep are you talking about? What female "almost" won Indy?

[markabilly]

I take it that you were on the "other" side of the split. That war is over - move on.
Actually not. I was mad at both sides, and thought for sure they would work out some sort of reasonable accomodation, but like it or not, was convinced that whoever had Indy would win.
Never thought it would go on for so long.
Then the tobacco money was finally stopped, something that really funded some great teams and series over the years, esp before the split and was what kept CC alive, things started getting dark but nobody noticed..

So I think the general interest, esp with OW racing, began to evaporate as by themselves, neither series offered all that much before the drought and CC offered zero, once their funding dried up.

Then along come Danica, and the novelty of a sex kitten as a "racer". Poor substitute for the tobacco money and with people like Tony Stewart headed for "greener" (money) pastures, well....But it was more than CC had......Unfortunately as PT barum once said, one will never go broke underestimating the taste of the american public....

Even JPM turned his nose up at OW racing when he could do nascar, as have a number of OW racers who have tried to jump.

Yet, in 1993, Nigel Mansell, two times WDC, winner of 31 F1 races (4th overall behind MS, Prost, Senna), still in his prime from his WDC of the year before, came to Indy and the series....

if the IRL does not make some radical changes, to provide something more than stock car racing with open wheels......like the thrill, acceleration and scream of a F1 car (or the cars before the IRL version came along) when it leaves pit lane....not even indy 500 will save it. :(

[markabilly]

and I will add, that i do not think the vision and financial strenght necessary to support such changes, is present anymore within indy or the irl....that just leaves novelty acts like Danica and at the later date when she finally goes, whoever/whatever "sex object" or "sidebar novelty acts", if any, can be found to replace her--hence my satire about dixon.

(BTW as to living in the past, as some have said, those who fail to learn the lessons of history, are doomed to repeat its mistakes....or as Einstein once said, the definition of an idiot, is one who keeps doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result each time)

[garyshell]

or as Einstein once said, the definition of an idiot, is one who keeps doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result each time)


Actually that was his definition of insanity. And there is a difference between learning from history and moving on versus dwelling in that history. Clearly you don't sem to understand the difference.

Gary

[markabilly]

Actually that was his definition of insanity. And there is a difference between learning from history and moving on versus dwelling in that history. Clearly you don't sem to understand the difference.

Gary
clearly the irl does not

and some folks around here seem to be stuck in the failure of the present, thinking no more danica, will save them, when the clear lesson is that it will not,

not without much more than what has been offered and that is the lesson of CC

[markabilly]

and i am not the one wishing for the good ole days of no danica

just the good old days when the drivers were clearly without question among the best in the world, and to hear one coming down the straight was bone tingling

[SarahFan]

since that fateful day in May have attendance and ratings steadily increased or declined?

[Scotty G.]

just the good old days when the drivers were clearly without question among the best in the world...


When was that exactly?

Newsflash....the Indy 500 and Indy Car Racing have NEVER had most of the best drivers in the world. Never have and never will.

All I'd like to see again is the Indy 500 and Indy Car Racing to draw some of the best AMERICAN drivers again. They used to at least do that in the 60's, 70's and 80's.

That is where it needs to start. Then once you start doing that, then worry about the rest of the world.

[beachbum]

and i am not the one wishing for the good ole days of no danica

just the good old days when the drivers were clearly without question among the best in the world, and to hear one coming down the straight was bone tinglingAre you sure you didn't partake of some of the "recreational" substances in the 70's? Maybe just a few mushrooms?

While there have always been good drivers and even a few great ones, there has also always been a steady helping of field fillers.

"bone tingling" Somehow that isn't a word I would use for an Offy and almost any Turbo. Maybe the Novi......

[Mark in Oshawa]

When was that exactly?

Newsflash....the Indy 500 and Indy Car Racing have NEVER had most of the best drivers in the world. Never have and never will.

All I'd like to see again is the Indy 500 and Indy Car Racing to draw some of the best AMERICAN drivers again. They used to at least do that in the 60's, 70's and 80's.

That is where it needs to start. Then once you start doing that, then worry about the rest of the world.


There you go lost in that American drivers fog again. The problem with that Scott is as I told you, they are choosing NOT to go to the IRL...and while you will disagree I am sure (you have never failed to disagree on this point yet), it is simply a case of most OW formula style racers in the junior formula in the US are not always even American. The top talents in driving cars with wings and the engine in the back are coming from Europe as often as not.

It isn't 1960 and you hit on driving the Indycars after a season of USAC Sprints and midgets. Tony Stewart was the last really amazing driver out of that world to come to the Indycar world....and he left for the money and to race 36 times a year in NASCAR. It is the MONEY that is pulling them to NASCAR, and they don't have to worry about bringing their own sponsors.

I hope more American drivers DO get rides and the heritage of this sport in America isn't lost, but it is an economic thing, and the economics of this sport went south with the split and the loss of the tobacco money.

I do know this much. I still am flummoxed why Danica ended up being the biggest star. Last time I looked, the big stars are the people who won. It is only in the last two years since the merge that Danica's influence in the IRL has started to wane.....

I think the competitive balance on track has been the best it has been in years on track, and that is the project of the merger. I think if the car rules and chassis rules were opened back up, the on track product would follow and I think with THAT, the needles on ratings and attention would go up. Once that happens, the sponsors come back, and then it is a valid destination vs NASCAR for OW drivers in North America. It is going to be a long road back...and I am thinking the gimmick of female race drivers has gone a few minutes longer than the 15 minutes it should have.

[TURN3]

I assume others have read the article on Danica on SI.com? Funny how Tom Anderson tries his hardest to keep from calling her out, but basically says she can't handle a fast car and all of her teammates can. On the flip side, one of Danica's mild attempts as an excuse is to say this is her 3rd strategist in 4 years and Tom misses things and doesn't know her yet. Hmmm, what was her excuse each of the past years. She's never done well on a road course short of when she had the trick steering for the 2 or 3 road course events they had at that point. Somebody might want to point out to the Danica that Tom Anderson's credentials at his job are possibly hall of fame worthy while she has yet to crack the Barber Pro talent level. She sucks.

[markabilly]

When was that exactly?

Newsflash....the Indy 500 and Indy Car Racing have NEVER had most of the best drivers in the world. Never have and never will.

All I'd like to see again is the Indy 500 and Indy Car Racing to draw some of the best AMERICAN drivers again. They used to at least do that in the 60's, 70's and 80's.

That is where it needs to start. Then once you start doing that, then worry about the rest of the world.

well I dont disagree except I said "among the best", but maybe you be right.

Jim Clark, Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney, Graham Hill, AJ Foyt, Unsers brothers, Mark Donohue, Jackie Stewart, Parnelli Jones, Sneva, Mears, and even much later, Nigel Mansell, JV (a mere rookie Indy winner and a WDC), JPM--another rookie winner, Greg Moore, among a number of others.....

Yeah I agree, those guys were not among the best in the world. Not even close. What did beachbum call them? Just field fillers...

:dozey:

Funny, in the sixties, every one of the best drivers I can think of, recognized not only in the USA, but the world over as being the challengers for the title of the best there ever was, well the only one I can think of who did NOT race Indy, was John Surtees.

But you are right, I am dwelling in the past, and should be thrilled about the way of the new or old IRL, with or without Danica.

Those old dreams of an idle old fool like me, and all that history is gone, and with it the faint hope of a return to greatness being just ashes in the wind, never to return.
You win.

[beachgirl]

Jim Clark, Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney, Graham Hill, AJ Foyt, Unsers brothers, Mark Donohue, Jackie Stewart, Parnelli Jones, Sneva, Mears, and even much later, Nigel Mansell, JV (a mere rookie Indy winner and a WDC), JPM--another rookie winner, Greg Moore, among a number of others.....

Yeah I agree, those guys were not among the best in the world. Not even close. What did beachbum call them? Just field fillers...



Perhaps you ought to step back off your little cloud and actually read what Beachbum wrote. He did not call those fantastic racers field fillers. He did not name anyone at all.

Talk about agendas. You've got a one for some reason.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well you know...Americans never appreciate racing talent from outside the USA Markabilly. Like you guys, you just hated Nigel Mansell, Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart, Graham Hill, Emmo Fittapaldi and Zanardi. Bums..all of em...

[markabilly]

Well you know...Americans never appreciate racing talent from outside the USA Markabilly. Like you guys, you just hated Nigel Mansell, Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart, Graham Hill, Emmo Fittapaldi and Zanardi. Bums..all of em...
i think you are wrong for almost all the current racing talent
(f1 rejects and wannabees) in the irl comes from elsewhere to run with the sons of andretti and rahal

someone here must like them

but the only name that for whatever reason, rings a bell here and across the world like the names mentioned in the above posts is danica, and she is american

sad so--i give up and will just dwell in the past

but HOLD ON ONE SECOND, the best racers in the world have come to indy in the last ten years, they came for the motogps, the f1 races and the brickyard 40:D

[Mark in Oshawa]

i think you are wrong for almost all the current racing talent
(f1 rejects and wannabees) in the irl comes from elsewhere to run with the sons of andretti and rahal

someone here must like them

but the only name that for whatever reason, rings a bell here and across the world like the names mentioned in the above posts is danica, and she is american

sad so--i give up and will just dwell in the past

but HOLD ON ONE SECOND, the best racers in the world have come to indy in the last ten years, they came for the motogps, the f1 races and the brickyard 40:D

Well the BEST OW racers in the world are in the top 5 teams of F1. After that...I wouldn't want to say some of the backmarkers in f1 are any better than Dixon, Briscoe, Power and Castroneves.

The fact is, the IRL is just no longer a destination for the top talent from either continent any more. The late Greg Moore always wanted to win Indy, and other young Canadian drivers did too...but now...I suspect they all are looking to maybe see F1 at the ultimate goal because the money isn't in the IRL. IN short, the series has to get healthier. Once THAT happens, the top Americans and top Canadians will want to be there. Right now..young drivers are just as likely to see ALMS, NASCAR or one of the Euro junior formulae heading to F1 as a more worthy place. The decline of the Indycars is a symptom of the last 15 years of stupidity. Let's build a better series with money in it..and this problem solves it self. It still has good talent in it. You cannot tell me that Dario or Helio are poor drivers or incapable. I suspect given time, they could race anything....

[garyshell]

To add to what Mark just said, I have a feeling that Will, Dario, Dixon and Helio could hold there own in F1 given top shelf equipment and team support. But I also think none of them are much interested in all the political BS and trappings that would go along with such a venture. Without a doubt F1 is the pinnacle of racing, but it's also the pinnacle of hassle as well.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

well I dont disagree except I said "among the best", but maybe you be right.

Jim Clark, Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney, Graham Hill, AJ Foyt, Unsers brothers, Mark Donohue, Jackie Stewart, Parnelli Jones, Sneva, Mears, and even much later, Nigel Mansell, JV (a mere rookie Indy winner and a WDC), JPM--another rookie winner, Greg Moore, among a number of others.....

Yeah I agree, those guys were not among the best in the world. Not even close. What did beachbum call them? Just field fillers...

:dozey:

Funny, in the sixties, every one of the best drivers I can think of, recognized not only in the USA, but the world over as being the challengers for the title of the best there ever was, well the only one I can think of who did NOT race Indy, was John Surtees.

But you are right, I am dwelling in the past, and should be thrilled about the way of the new or old IRL, with or without Danica.

Those old dreams of an idle old fool like me, and all that history is gone, and with it the faint hope of a return to greatness being just ashes in the wind, never to return.
You win.

Two words.....Dennis Vitolo.

Don't remember him? Ask one of what you consider one of the greatest racers in the world...Nigel Mansell

[Mark in Oshawa]

Two words.....Dennis Vitolo.

Don't remember him? Ask one of what you consider one of the greatest racers in the world...Nigel Mansell

There is a perfect example of a driver who was American but had no business behind the wheels of an Indycar. Nice guy I am sure...but the passport of the driver shouldn't be the first or second consideration of giving a guy a ride...

[anthonyvop]

To add to what Mark just said, I have a feeling that Will, Dario, Dixon and Helio could hold there own in F1 given top shelf equipment and team support. But I also think none of them are much interested in all the political BS and trappings that would go along with such a venture. Without a doubt F1 is the pinnacle of racing, but it's also the pinnacle of hassle as well.

Gary


Can't speak for Dario but Will Power had F-1 as his goal. Scott Dixon had two tests with BMW/Williams and Helio would have cut off his arm to drive in F-1. politics and all.

[garyshell]

But I also think none of them are much interested in all the political BS and trappings that would go along with such a venture. Without a doubt F1 is the pinnacle of racing, but it's also the pinnacle of hassle as well.

Gary


Can't speak for Dario but Will Power had F-1 as his goal. Scott Dixon had two tests with BMW/Williams and Helio would have cut off his arm to drive in F-1. politics and all.

Notice the underlined and bolded word in my original quote?

Gary

[TURN3]

I'm really disappointed how far off topic we are getting considering it is my favorite subject...BASHING DANICA!! LOL! :D

[markabilly]

Two words.....Dennis Vitolo.

Don't remember him? Ask one of what you consider one of the greatest racers in the world...Nigel Mansell
so what is a lttle bump in the pits among buds?

Mansell was such a jerk he wore out his welcome in the USA and went back to win again in F1, only to wear out his welcome there as well...



WDC in 1992, got all pissy at his team, went off to CART and Indy in 1993 for two or more years, got all pissy again and in his forties went back to F1 in 1995 after being gone two years, and won again.

Situation not much different than MS and his return.

My point was that this is the type of driver who used to show up for the Indy 500.

The best were there, even under the snotty f1 definition of "the best", but no more.

and as anthonyvop put it, there are a number of current IRL drivers who have tried out or would love to be in F1, but just can not get in.

OTOH, I know of no current f1 driver wanting to race in the Indy 500 or the IRL.

American or foreigner, they all want NASCAR, not Indy or IRL.
JPM went back to nascar. Tony stewart went to Nascar. Even jarno Trulli wanted to go NASCAR--he did not ask to be in the Indy..... Even Scott Speed came back not to the IRL, but to trucks and stocks..........That is where they all want to go :dozey:

Even the DP wants to go NASCAR....... :rolleyes:

[Scotty G.]

1. The decline of the Indycars is a symptom of the last 15 years of stupidity.

2. You cannot tell me that Dario or Helio are poor drivers or incapable. I suspect given time, they could race anything....


1. No, this is a symptom that has plagued this sport for FAR longer then that. Indy Car thumbed their nose at Jeff Gordon long before "the split". They started losing many of the best American talent LONG before "the split". They started catering their sport to F1 dropouts long before "the split".

"The Split" was hurtful but it was also a convenient excuse for the failings of this sport. And until we have a sport that young Americans and young Canadians aspire to race in again, then we are going nowhere.

2. Dario looked out-of-his-league in his NASCAR adventure. Others from the Indy Car world also looked overwhelmed and undertalented for the top rung of American motorsport.

Not saying Dario and Helio aren't good drivers. They are and have proven that. But they have also done it, in a time when Indy Cars talent level has been mediocre (at best) and done it when very few teams could compete with the teams they drove for.

Its not like Dario and Helio are battling it out with Mario, AJ, JR, Mears, the Unser's, Mosley, Johncock, Sneva and Donahue every weekend.

[Mark in Oshawa]

1. No, this is a symptom that has plagued this sport for FAR longer then that. Indy Car thumbed their nose at Jeff Gordon long before "the split". They started losing many of the best American talent LONG before "the split". They started catering their sport to F1 dropouts long before "the split".

"The Split" was hurtful but it was also a convenient excuse for the failings of this sport. And until we have a sport that young Americans and young Canadians aspire to race in again, then we are going nowhere.

Jeff Gordon wasn't snubbed...he didn't even really try. He took the path of least resistance. Tony Stewart came along a few years later with much the same pedigree, and even more championships and went straight into the IRL without any issue. No one banned him..no one tried to stop him, there was no conspiracy. You keep beating this drum about poor Jeff was hurt so bad by the mean old car owners. Those BAD people who conspire to keep Americans out of racing cars. Who the heck was going to give an CART car racing half the season on road courses to a guy who had been racing on dirt in midgets and sprints at the age of 18? Great talent...no doubt, but come on Scott. Read Jeff's book. He tells everyone what happened. He was looking into Atlantics or Indy Lights through his step dad, but no offers were on the table. He goes to Buck Baker's racing school at that time just to see what stock cars are like and he fell in love with them. Dropped the whole idea of going to CART. If he REALLY wanted to go OW bad enough, he would have found a way. The best always come to the top.

Contrast this with Paul Tracy, who came along at much the same time. His DAD bought his ride at Dale Coyne. BOUGHT IT. He wanted to race in CART and race at Indy. Jeff? Obviously as I described was quite willing to change his course. Poor Jeff...all those millions he made. He was so hurt he had to go to NASCAR and win 4 championships. I am going to break out tissues soon....

You keep saying this crap but no one on this board believes you on this one. Read Jeff's book. I did..and I am not even a 24 fan....


2. Dario looked out-of-his-league in his NASCAR adventure. Others from the Indy Car world also looked overwhelmed and undertalented for the top rung of American motorsport.

Not saying Dario and Helio aren't good drivers. They are and have proven that. But they have also done it, in a time when Indy Cars talent level has been mediocre (at best) and done it when very few teams could compete with the teams they drove for.

Its not like Dario and Helio are battling it out with Mario, AJ, JR, Mears, the Unser's, Mosley, Johncock, Sneva and Donahue every weekend.

Dario started how many races? 10? Did he test? ummm no...testing ban came along about that time. Dario had 18 plus years of driving OW race cars/karts. Nothing he had driven in a serious manner would prepare him to drive a stock car at this level. The team he was with was not one of the best ones.....so to say he is a "Failure" also ignores him having a broken leg in April of that season at Dega. C'mon Scott, you are awful fast and loose with the facts when you don't like them aren't you? Lets face a truth. NASCAR is not BETTER than the IRL but it is DIFFERENT. REALLY DIFFERENT. To succeed, unless you are a prodigy by jumping into the top level you will need a year to two. It is this year that Speed and Allmendinger have finally shown their true potential. Neither even THOUGHT about stock cars until they got there. OW drivers have a muscle memory to relearn, and have to relearn what their body tells them. To put down IRL drivers for failing at NASCAR is to presuppose they are gods. It is like someone who hits 100 runs in a Cricket match being asked to hit in the Major Leagues of baseball and be hitting .270 by the end of April. Both are great hitters, the baseball player and the cricket hitter, and both swing bats..but they are different and the pitchs coming at them are different. Short of having 4 wheels, almost nothing translates. The one car relies on downforce, is glued to the track, has the engine in the back and large contact patches. Stock cars have the smallest tires for any race car that weight imaginable, have too much power, all up front, and almost no aero now....Other than they are both cars, there is no real transferable skill set other than the reality that they go fast.

AS for saying Dario and Helio are not racing AJ, Mario and the rest...yes...because in this era, THEY are the AJ's Mario's and the rest. Maybe not to that level, I do agree, but racing is a lot more specialized now. Driving a Roadster at Indy and driving a stock car in the 60's still involved skinny tires, lots of power oversteer and not much in the world of chassis tuning. Now? Well once you sort out all the engineers, tire compound choices and aero or lack of aero....you have two completely race cars with the engines at opposite ends. Dario, Helio, Power, Dixon, TK, the Ryan's are all competitive with each other. What is more, they have more or less the same cars. I defy anyone to tell me where Mario or AJ would have won as often as they did if they had no advantages on any track from week to week in terms of machinery or preparation. This is a game of thousands of inches now. Get your nostalgia hat off...

[beachbum]

Mark, you make excellent points. Dario himself had some interesting observations that even apply to the original topic of this thread - Danica. Dario admitted he always liked a car set up with excellent rear traction and a little push. When he was at AGR, Danica often used a setup similar to Dario. But he quickly found that stock cars had to be run looser - much looser - to get any speed out of them. Tighten them up and they were easier to drive, but slower and not competitive. He admitted it took him a while to adapt to that. He also said it made him faster when he came back to the IRL and he could run different setups than previously.

One of the fascinations of watching NASCAR today is just how loose they run the cars. It isn't uncommon to see them laying down black streaks as they exit turns or watch them hanging the back out, even on superspeedways. That probably explains why short trackers and dirt racers adapt fairly easily as that feel isn't uncomfortable to them, while open wheel cars are rarely run that loose. Montoya said the same thing, and he even liked a relatively loose race car before trying stock cars.

"Back in the day" when all race cars had skinny tires and little aero, even pavement champ cars would slide around. A driver could jump from one type of car to another and there wasn't a huge difference. In some ways, an old front engine champ car wasn't much different than a stock car. One had fenders, and one didn't. But the weight distributions were similar, the tires were similar, and the aero was similar (none).

That is the biggest challenge Danica will face when she moves to stock cars. She just can't drive a loose car. Pop's at JR already admitted they had to really tighten the car up for her just to get her at all comfortable, making the car slow, very slow. When they loosened the car up for qualifying, she almost crashed it and could barely hang on. She has never shown any ability to change and adapt, so the likelihood that she will ever show any speed in a stock car at most tracks is pretty low because she can't drive the cars as they need to be run. Even as far back as her FF days, her teams noted she couldn't drive a loose car. There is a reason teams set a car up with a lot of understeer for a novice. It is easier to drive and the driver isn't as likely to get into trouble. But it isn't fast. There are a lot of drivers who can look good in a car like that. The real mark of a driver is one who can still get the most out of an evil handling car or a really loose car. Danica isn't one of the latter, and never will be.

It seems that the fast setups for IRL cars are much looser today than a few years ago (except at Indy). That may be one explanation why Danica's performance and results are what they are. The setups she can run are stable (and safe) enough to run midpack, but just aren't fast enough to get to the front. A safe setup is less likely to get the driver into trouble, so they are usually around at the end of the race, gaining points. But at Indy, stability and a "safe" setup are fine so she looks "good" there. It may also explain why she runs well at tracks were understeer isn't a big penalty (like ovals) and is usually slow at road courses.

[markabilly]

Actually, we don't know where Scott Speed wanted to be. We do know where Red Bull wanted him to be.
true...I am not sure speed knew where he wanted to be...I agree with your other comments as well.

and i agree with Mark's comments about Jeff Gordon. I remember a Speed show where Gordon drove an older Williams and JPM drove Gordon's stocker.

Given the older tires and car, his times where not that good for the currrent year F1 at Indy...back of the pack, but when compared to the times of the year before, a more accurate measurement given the older tires and car, he was competitive, and not bad for a guy doing a few hours of a tv side show, rather than serious car setup and practice. JPM seemed to have a rougher time adopting to the stocker..

[harvick#1]

Gordon wanted to try F1, not IRL, and that was back in 02 when he drove the Williams, so 8 years has past, Gordon wanted to drive a F1 car and he got too, I believe Gordon couldve done very well in F1 if he decided to go, but he stayed in Nascar

[NickFalzone]

Back on the topic of Danica, I think her Twitter feed says everything I need to know about her true interests and goals. Vast majority of the "tweets" are PR-style requests for people to check out some commercial or ad she's done, or requests for fans to vote for her on some web contest or another. All the others drivers I've seen on Twitter use it as a place to express their thoughts on current races (both IRL and elsewhere), new car concepts, personal stuff about friends/family, etc. But Danica rarely talks about racing, almost always a promo for some ad she's done, or once in awhile talking about her supposed "hobbies" of knitting and cooking.

[SoCalPVguy]

Wow !!! I never thought that when I posted that little local Daily Breeze article it would generate 130 responses !

[TURN3]

Wow !!! I never thought that when I posted that little local Daily Breeze article it would generate 130 responses !

Any thread with an open opportunity to slam the crap out of her is a wonderful thing!

[NickFalzone]

Any thread with an open opportunity to slam the crap out of her is a wonderful thing!

I would love to slam the crap out of her. The problem is watching her struggle around in 16th place for 2 1/2 hours and have the announcers tell us she's doing well (always in spite of some fictitious obstacle or another).

[Mark in Oshawa]

Wow !!! I never thought that when I posted that little local Daily Breeze article it would generate 130 responses !

About 30 of em are Turn3's doing....lol

Hey...whether it is here, or on the NASCAR board, people are not on the fence about Danica. DF and maybe one or two others think she is alright, and the rest of us cant stand her and love pointing out her shortcomings.

What gets me tho is the reality of this image starting to fray. The Tweet's, the move to NASCAR, the media overkill are all starting to fray the image, and this could be her last year as a media darling. She is in danger of being a media punching bag...

[TURN3]

About 30 of em are Turn3's doing....lol

Hey...whether it is here, or on the NASCAR board, people are not on the fence about Danica. DF and maybe one or two others think she is alright, and the rest of us cant stand her and love pointing out her shortcomings.

What gets me tho is the reality of this image starting to fray. The Tweet's, the move to NASCAR, the media overkill are all starting to fray the image, and this could be her last year as a media darling. She is in danger of being a media punching bag...

I vote for Mark as Prime Minister of Canada (or whatever they have there).

[markabilly]

.

What gets me tho is the reality of this image starting to fray. The Tweet's, the move to NASCAR, the media overkill are all starting to fray the image, and this could be her last year as a media darling. She is in danger of being a media punching bag...

does this mean we will see a new Danica movie getting ads on this forum ?



(http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=B5MrsPOrYS8T_JtWp6QaHlu33CMzd5sMBmveLpA7AjbcBoP c2EAEYASDylPwBKAI4AFDpkfL0-_____8BYMmui43kpMATsgEYd3d3Lm1vdG9yc3BvcnRmb3J1bXM uY29tugEJNzI4eDkwX2FzyAEB2gFFaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tb3Rvc nNwb3J0Zm9ydW1zLmNvbS9mb3J1bXMvc2hvd3RocmVhZC5waHA _dD0xMzc5NTAmcGFnZT00yAK0yJUSqAMByAMH6AO0AegDpgb1A wABAMA&num=1&sig=AGiWqtwPKgFkXQuA5RudKPBYoZoPGweeIw&client=ca-pub-4215769602597401&adurl=http://pixel1097.everesttech.net/1097/rq/3/c_d9b3277df53ac8b9cf3146a222142a2d_3740177008/url%3Dhttp%253A//dreams.honda.com/stories/failure-the-secret-to-success/&nm=13)
Danica Patrick Honda Film (http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=B5MrsPOrYS8T_JtWp6QaHlu33CMzd5sMBmveLpA7AjbcBoP c2EAEYASDylPwBKAI4AFDpkfL0-_____8BYMmui43kpMATsgEYd3d3Lm1vdG9yc3BvcnRmb3J1bXM uY29tugEJNzI4eDkwX2FzyAEB2gFFaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tb3Rvc nNwb3J0Zm9ydW1zLmNvbS9mb3J1bXMvc2hvd3RocmVhZC5waHA _dD0xMzc5NTAmcGFnZT00yAK0yJUSqAMByAMH6AO0AegDpgb1A wABAMA&num=1&sig=AGiWqtwPKgFkXQuA5RudKPBYoZoPGweeIw&client=ca-pub-4215769602597401&adurl=http://pixel1097.everesttech.net/1097/rq/3/c_d9b3277df53ac8b9cf3146a222142a2d_3740177008/url%3Dhttp%253A//dreams.honda.com/stories/failure-the-secret-to-success/&nm=13)Watch now to discover the downside of failure through Danica Patrick (http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=B5MrsPOrYS8T_JtWp6QaHlu33CMzd5sMBmveLpA7AjbcBoP c2EAEYASDylPwBKAI4AFDpkfL0-_____8BYMmui43kpMATsgEYd3d3Lm1vdG9yc3BvcnRmb3J1bXM uY29tugEJNzI4eDkwX2FzyAEB2gFFaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tb3Rvc nNwb3J0Zm9ydW1zLmNvbS9mb3J1bXMvc2hvd3RocmVhZC5waHA _dD0xMzc5NTAmcGFnZT00yAK0yJUSqAMByAMH6AO0AegDpgb1A wABAMA&num=1&sig=AGiWqtwPKgFkXQuA5RudKPBYoZoPGweeIw&client=ca-pub-4215769602597401&adurl=http://pixel1097.everesttech.net/1097/rq/3/c_d9b3277df53ac8b9cf3146a222142a2d_3740177008/url%3Dhttp%253A//dreams.honda.com/stories/failure-the-secret-to-success/&nm=13)
esp since she might be driving for Chevie, not honda?


BTW Mark you almost had my vote for whatever, but then you and to go compare Mario and AJ to to to..... Dario and Helio.....

AJ and Mario compared to schumacher or hamilton, or to Clark (who Colin Chapman pretty much considered them to be overall almost equals, except Clark could drive the wheels of pigs, whereas mario excelled at car set up and handling in the day long before data collection and engineers with lap tops)....well...But....dario and helio

:eek: HELLO :eek:

So in response to this: "I defy anyone to tell me where Mario or AJ would have won as often as they did if they had no advantages on any track from week to week in terms of machinery or preparation", consider yourself defied (and not dietificationated) :vader:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ok Markabilly...I wont put them AT the same level...but you do see my point surely in that Dario and Helio are better than people give them credit for. The point is the IRL is a series where all the guys more or less have the same stuff, so to stand out means you must have something more going on than the other guys. AJ and Mario had SOMETHING more than the other guys. That part of the comparsion is most certainly valid. Would Dixon, Power, Franchitti or Castroneves be able to show up in 1974 and run with AJ, Mario and the Unsers? I think actually they would....but I wont go and say they would own them.

Everyone always has nostalgia and rose tinted glasses on when looking at the past, but I don't think the best drivers now in the sport are substandard to any large degree in the IRL to the USAC Champs of the 60's and 70's. Just don't. Just like players in just about every other sport have gotten better over time, you would have to be dreaming if you didn't think the modern day racing driver isn't better on a lot of levels. He has more engineering knowledge and we know he is in better shape physically. It is a different world to be sure, and I do think AJ and Mario were prodigy's that are above the pale compared to any era, but I don't think that gap is very large...

We right now in this modern era have 6 to 9 cars capable of winning any given weekend....That is drivers/teams that are capable of winning. Go back in the entry lists in the "good ole days" and find 9 or 10 possible winners on a weekly basis. Most teams didn't even do the whole series such as it was...

It was a different sport then....

[markabilly]

well danica is better than some give her credit for, and she has the most easily recognized name in motorsports today, other than Andretti, in the eyes and ears of the American general public.

Right wrong or indifferent.

And unfortunately NONE of the other IRL drivers have that, except for marco, thanks to his granddad, as when people hear Andretti, they think racer....but as to Marco, none of that credit belongs to him, it belongs to grandpa, who I would put as an equal to MS, Hamilton, Senna, fangio, or any other active driver today or in history of motorsports....and the press is NOT paying any attention to marco.....

Indeed, not even Tony Stewart, Unsers, et al, have the same name recognition as ole Mario Andretti or Danica in the USA, (and not even MS, Jim Clark, and the rest)

So I think the irl should be thankful for what little they have left and so should the rest of you

gee you made me want to vote for you, only to later make me want to vote for Ms Palin....

[TURN3]

well danica is better than some give her credit for, and she has the most easily recognized name in motorsports today, other than Andretti, in the eyes and ears of the American general public.

Right wrong or indifferent.

And unfortunately NONE of the other IRL drivers have that, except for marco, thanks to his granddad, as when people hear Andretti, they think racer....but as to Marco, none of that credit belongs to him, it belongs to grandpa, who I would put as an equal to MS, Hamilton, Senna, fangio, or any other active driver today or in history of motorsports....and the press is NOT paying any attention to marco.....

Indeed, not even Tony Stewart, Unsers, et al, have the same name recognition as ole Mario Andretti or Danica in the USA, (and not even MS, Jim Clark, and the rest)

So I think the irl should be thankful for what little they have left and so should the rest of you

gee you made me want to vote for you, only to later make me want to vote for Ms Palin....

While I applaud you for getting back onto the important point of Danica, you're wrong twice here. She isn't better than some of us give her credit for. That argument is getting so old putting up facts and stats to show it. So, moving on to something that is debatable...I believe Danica moving on is good for the future of Indycar. She is a novelty, nothing more. Recognizable or not, what Indycar needs is a fan base that is based on something more than a sideshow. I've been saying this for over 3 years. The more attention she gets for being a hack that generates nothing but news articles, the less attention that gets paid to the sport, period, and the talented drivers and personalities that deserve it. I'm all for the end of the Danica experiment. Now if for some reason Honda would start giving her engines with 150 more HP and she started running in the top 5, we'd generate the type of attention that IS good. But I'd say since they've already gone down that road a couple of times the other teams are onto it and it won't happen.

[markabilly]

[quote="TURN3"]While I applaud you for getting back onto the important point of Danica, you're wrong twice here. She isn't better than some of us give her credit for. That argument is getting so old putting up facts and stats to show it. So, moving on to something that is debatable...I believe Danica moving on is good for the future of Indycar. She is a novelty, nothing more. Recognizable or not, what Indycar needs is a fan base that is based on something more than a sideshow. I've been saying this for over 3 years. The more attention she gets for being a hack that generates nothing but news articles, the less attention that gets paid to the sport, period, and the talented drivers and personalities that deserve it. [quote]

Just a basty circle here....

And without her, the sport would not even have that.....it is a vicous circle much like getting hooked on drugs, you really should get off......but can you really pay the price?

If there were this clear groundswell of support independant of her......and american OW racers showing the way in the IRL and bringing those fans in.....,pay the price and kick her butt out ASAP before we get hooked.........well speaking of the viscous circle....... :(

But dont worry there is always ADma carrollo

[TURN3]

Can we start a new thread on this topic? I'm bored and this is the most fun to talk about.

[JimClarkFan]

Now there was a driver who could/should have been the next big American driver and he wanted to be in OW. No money, no chance. Not a single one of the teams ever gave him so much as a look.

Patrick Long actually hit the lottery, sort of speak. Porsche came to him and said they wanted to sign him as a factory driver. Only one condition: you need to give up any wishes to drive open wheel cars and drive for us exclusively. So let us know your answer. He then went to several people in the sport to ask their opinion and they all said "Take the Porsche offer." He did and the rest is history with no looking back.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Can we start a new thread on this topic? I'm bored and this is the most fun to talk about.

you have to wait for her majesty to do something noteworthy...like break a nail getting in the car at Indy or something...

[TURN3]

Patrick Long actually hit the lottery, sort of speak. Porsche came to him and said they wanted to sign him as a factory driver. Only one condition: you need to give up any wishes to drive open wheel cars and drive for us exclusively. So let us know your answer. He then went to several people in the sport to ask their opinion and they all said "Take the Porsche offer." He did and the rest is history with no looking back.

As I eluded to before, this story is confirmed. Porsche pays this guy very well. Guess he doesn't need to worry about paying for an Indycar ride that way, huh?