The future of Williams [Archive]

jens

18th April 2010, 18:52

It's quite ominous that seemingly almost no-one is still talking about this once great team. They are completely invisible. What does the future bring to them? I can't help but feel that the team needs a major and radical turnaround to save anything.

The current Williams reminds me Tyrrell from the 90's. They had consistency in terms of key personnel (with Harvey as TD), were consistently average in the midfield, had chronic lack of funds, kept changing engines and drivers, but nothing changed. Until they dropped from midfield to the very back in 97-98.

What I find different between Tyrrell and Williams is that at least Tyrrell had a legendary designer in Postlethwaite, who tried to invent all kinds of things (like X-wings) to keep the team in the picture, but lack of funds never enabled a breakthrough. With Williams I get the impression that everything is just plain average without any strengths standing out - engine, designers including Sam Michael, etc. Williams is also quite a conservative team and it feels like they have simply failed to keep up with today's standards. I would even use a phrase here, which is often used to describe drivers - Williams as a team is "past their prime". I'm not sure that the budgets of current Renault and Force India are bigger than Williams', but those teams are showing much greater signs of life. It feels like Willy will soon have to take a look behind and start fearing the challenge of new teams.

What could possibly turn the fortunes of Williams around? Major reshuffle in the team especially in the design team? A co-operation and funding from a major car manufacturer? The problem with car manufacturers is that it doesn't seem like anyone is interested joining F1 in near future except maybe VW - and even then not before 2013, when new engine regulations will be implemented. And even then VW might team up with someone else, like RBR or Sauber.

steveaki13

18th April 2010, 19:08

I certainly think Williams will struggle to ever repeat the success of 92-97 and relative success of 2001-2004.

Sadly I think soon (Couple of Seasons) they may be taken over or withdraw. I hope not but thats my fear, because the last couple of seasons have been bland and bare for Williams

Mia 01

18th April 2010, 19:12

Their stratgies are not so good in the races.

They need som new upper management.

F1boat

18th April 2010, 19:19

I agree with the Tyrell comparisons. This is very sad, as they were the best team in my childhood. I remember that our commentator remarked that in the first GP in 1998 Frank Williams almost cried, he felt that it was an end of an era.
And now we know that it also was the beginning of the end...

maximilian

18th April 2010, 19:54

How good is the Cosworth engine? Does it play a factor in holding Williams back this year?

UltimateDanGTR

18th April 2010, 20:09

williams is ina poor state compared to their illustrious past. If you look at it, when they had major backing from a major manufacturer (the honda, renault and bmw years) they were one of the titans. without the major support they are midfielders, essentially because they are a small team: a small team who have done big things with big names.

they need a big name to back them, a big car maker to support them, more than just supply engines, and they would become great again IMO.

however, getting such backing would be very hard. best bet would be to snap up a new manufacturer who were entering the sport, like VW or a re-entrance of Honda or whoever if such thing was to ever happen. they'd need some shrewd business skills, in other words.

Sonic

18th April 2010, 20:24

Well my sig says it all really. My hopes have been dashed and things look pretty bleak for Williams - take away RBS (and as I understand it that happens at the end of this year) where is the money going to come from? They've already sold a stake and let's be frank (pun not intended) the founders are not getting younger so I'm expecting the team to morf into something new within a few years.

I'm also re-reading my 1996 championship book and its sad how far they have fallen.

:(

ShiftingGears

19th April 2010, 05:43

I don't feel that hiring Sam Michael has helped Williams improve. Since he was hired, their only win was Interlagos in 2004, in a car that was not designed by Michael. Since then, no wins, one pole position. Their high points since include being upper mid-field on the rare occasion, and averaging about one podium a season.

ArrowsFA1

19th April 2010, 09:14

Again, it does't look like Williams are making any progress up the grid. They got a decent driver lineup with Barrichello and Hulkenberg and a neat looking car, but the results aren't there. Very disappointing.

I don't agree with the Tyrrell comparisons. For one thing Tyrrell were a consistently successful team when Jackie Stewart was with them; after that the team were in decline. The plain blue cars with just the team name on the sidepods was a sad sight.

Williams have maintained their success over decades, not just a few years, and while they haven't won since 2004 they do have sponsorship in place, and new investment.

Saint Devote

19th April 2010, 10:49

Its not bleak for Williams.
They have two excellent drivers - a well balanced partnership.

They have a new wealthy investor with that fellow Wolff who also has a small shareholding. The car is good and the team will survive.

Its not what it was, but that does not mean they will not score points.

Considering where Schumi and the Ferrari's finished it was not too bad given that the initial pit stop was difficult to make - as we saw in Malaysia, even the best funded teams can make errors.

This is not the first time that people have been "tolling the bells" for the Williams team.

Retro Formula 1

19th April 2010, 11:14

I think they are on a knife edge. Perhaps it's time for a shake up and fresh approach.

jens

19th April 2010, 11:55

Williams have maintained their success over decades, not just a few years, and while they haven't won since 2004 they do have sponsorship in place, and new investment.

But for how long will that sponsorship last if they continue being as invisible as they are? And if no car manufacturer teams up with them, what will be the fate? Stay in midfield forever? What we know is that Toto Wolff has bought a stake in the team, but what is his role and how does he contribute to the activities of the team?

ArrowsFA1

19th April 2010, 12:13

This is not the first time that people have been "tolling the bells" for the Williams team.
I don't think people want to see Williams disappear from F1, but I do wonder some times.

I think they are on a knife edge.
Based on what though?

But for how long will that sponsorship last if they continue being as invisible as they are? And if no car manufacturer teams up with them, what will be the fate? Stay in midfield forever? What we know is that Toto Wolff has bought a stake in the team, but what is his role and how does he contribute to the activities of the team?
Well, we know RBS are gone at the end of the year. Not sure about their other deals, or Wolff's role, but Williams are not unique when it comes to sponsorship. All teams are looking for new finance. Obviously winning helps and I have high hopes for The Hulk, maybe not this year though.

Retro Formula 1

19th April 2010, 13:21

Based on what though?

Please don't think I'm a Williams nay-sayer. I really wish they could up their game and return to at least some success of former years.

I just think they have run their course in their present incarnation. in fact, Patrick and Frank particularly might want to think about handing over some elements of control and I think that's what is happening.

Christian Wolff is the future. He has drive, management experience and success behind him. It's early days but I think Pat and Frank selling some equity to Toto is a smart and progressive move for the team.

ArrowsFA1

21st January 2011, 15:46

Williams is considering the radical step of a public flotation in a bid to secure its long-term financial health
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89028

Good to see the interview with Adam Parr (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89029)) in which he says:
The company has always been run on sound financial principles. In spite of the economic environment in recent years, we have turned a profit and generated positive cash-flow from operating activities in 2008, 2009 and 2010 and we have a fully contracted budget for 2011.

UltimateDanGTR

21st January 2011, 16:35

Koz

21st January 2011, 22:41

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89028

Good to see the interview with Adam Parr (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89029)) in which he says:

Is this why they ditched Hulk, the person who gave them the first pole since JMP, because he didn't bring in enough cash with him??

Hulk wasn't too far off Rubens in the second half of the season, and I would say pretty well considering their car. With the Pastor we're probably in for another crappy first half of 2011 before he adapts too bad they'll get rid of him for someone who brings more $ for 2012...

If drivers are what Williams rely on to get a positive cash flow, not much good to be said here...

Jag_Warrior

22nd January 2011, 03:08

Floating Williams on the stock market, hmm. Excuse me for my scepticism, but wasn't the last major company in motor racing to be on the stock market CART? I can't help for worry for the team a little.

Reynard, I believe. But your point remains the same.

Depending on the structure of the deal, I might like to buy a few shares in McLaren or Ferrari F1. But any shares bought in the rest of them would be more like a donation to the cause, IMO.

longisland

22nd January 2011, 07:16

I've been a fan of Williams since 84 when I started watchingFormula 1. Contrary to the general perceptions from this thread, I think Williams near future prospect seems pretty positive. They had the best season last year in a decade. Mercedes was under performing and dropped them to the the mid table pack, Force India, Sauber and Toro Rosso were struggling. Fianacially, Renault doesn't seemed to be in any better shape. As long as the fans are realistic about their expectation, a "Solid" performance, i.e. scoring points consistently, making the third round in qualifying, get a few podium finish occasionally or an odd pole like Nico did last year, is the best they can muster. The only way to move back up to the top of the table is to discover a genius like Ross Brawn or Adrian Newey. The design and team strategy are generally conservative and at best solid. They need someone who can think outside of the box like the good old days when they came up with the active suspension. The main challenge is the F1 community is small and the best talents are either with the top teams, or will be snatched by the top teams eventually. I can't complain too much about my favourite team but a win with Rubens will be nice.

christophulus

22nd January 2011, 20:43

I'm a fan of Williams, and I'd rather they stayed as a respectable mid-table team than go bust, or sell up to a manufacturer like many other teams have. They're achieving quite a lot on a small budget, and should be in a good position for many years to come.

Besides, they've already started diversifying their business - the flywheel KERS with Porsche and designing the F2 car spring to mind. They'll be around for a few years yet.

SGWilko

23rd January 2011, 11:37

Besides, they've already started diversifying their business - the flywheel KERS with Porsche and designing the F2 car spring to mind. They'll be around for a few years yet.

They were in cahoots with JC Bamford, selling them their semi auto box (or the technology behind it) in the early 90's IIRC.

ArrowsFA1

24th January 2011, 10:44

Williams also developed the Metro 6R4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Metro#Metro_6R4_rally_car) rally car in the mid-1980's, but essentially their business is F1 unlike the likes of McLaren who have expanded into a number of different areas - http://mclaren.com/mclaren-group.

Hondo

29th January 2011, 23:33

I think it's fair to say that perhaps Williams did well during their glory years in spite of Patrick and Sir Frank, not because of them. They lost their brilliant technical people and have been adrift ever since.

ArrowsFA1

30th January 2011, 07:44

I think it's fair to say that perhaps Williams did well during their glory years in spite of Patrick and Sir Frank, not because of them.
So who does deserves the credit for those successes in your view?

DexDexter

30th January 2011, 08:39

Sonic

30th January 2011, 09:33

This is just ridiculous, it's Frank and Patrick's team, nothing is in spite of them.

Bravo Dex!

You can't have it both ways Hondo; either Frank and Patrick get the credit due to them for their successes, or, if you are intent or your POV that the founders have nothing to do with the glory years then neither can they be blamed for the downturn.

Clearly that's an illogical position, Williams didn't have a plan in place to replace either Newey or Renault and Frank and Patrick have to take the blame for that. But equally they are the same people who brought those two into the Williams fold in the first place.

F1 has always gone in cycles - Ferrari didn't win a race for something like four years in the '90's and no titles for two decades! Even McLaren have only won a Few titles in the last 15 years. Only time will tell if Williams can rise again or if they'll become just a name in the history books.

Hondo

30th January 2011, 10:04

There's nothing ridiculous about it. Look at Ferrari. They had a long dry spell before they assembled the "dream team". Montezemolo was in overall charge of that and they did well. As the team began to split up, the successes came harder. Once the team was gone completely, Montezemolo decided he could run the team just as well. Probably deluded himself that the previous victories had been because of his superior management. Anyway, Ferrari hasn't managed anywhere near as well since Montezemolo took active control with the exception of the "honors" they took after McLaren had it's points taken away. Montezemolo has made poor choices in staffing the current team and Sir Frank and Patrick have made a poor choice in Sam Michael.

I have nothing against Williams, I like them in fact, but I think their downfall has done a good job of proving they aren't the technical brains of the outfit. If they were, they would see what their designers are doing wrong and correct them.

As an example look at NASA. They provided management, resources, and funding but von Braun designed the rocket that actually got the job done and people say NASA went to the moon or the USA went to the moon but they don't say von Braun's rocket went to the moon. Although the team gets the credit, the inspiration came from an individual within the team. For Williams, those individuals are gone and car design is not Sir Frank's or Patrick's personal strong points.

Malbec

30th January 2011, 13:04

I have nothing against Williams, I like them in fact, but I think their downfall has done a good job of proving they aren't the technical brains of the outfit. If they were, they would see what their designers are doing wrong and correct them.

I agree with you that SFW and Patrick Head have contributed to Williams' downfall but not for the same reason. I think its because of their refusal to do a deal with any manufacturer that would result in a technology transfer or let them take a stake in the team. Ultimately thats why they lost BMW (although I think BMW is not the kind of partner any team would want to have) and have since failed to find a manufacturer to tie up with thats able to give them the funding they need to get back to the front. That protects their business model but has limited the team's funding considerably letting them fall back into the midfield.

I heard they are trying to do a deal with VW for 2013 onwards, I wonder if this deal would involve SFW and Patrick Head being bought out and retiring. Its the only way the deal would truly work.

DexDexter

30th January 2011, 13:22

I agree with you that SFW and Patrick Head have contributed to Williams' downfall but not for the same reason. I think its because of their refusal to do a deal with any manufacturer that would result in a technology transfer or let them take a stake in the team. Ultimately thats why they lost BMW (although I think BMW is not the kind of partner any team would want to have) and have since failed to find a manufacturer to tie up with thats able to give them the funding they need to get back to the front. That protects their business model but has limited the team's funding considerably letting them fall back into the midfield.

I heard they are trying to do a deal with VW for 2013 onwards, I wonder if this deal would involve SFW and Patrick Head being bought out and retiring. Its the only way the deal would truly work.

This would only lead to a situation where, once VW became disinterested, the team would fold. If you allow a manufacturer to take control, they'll eventually destroy the team once the board decides F1 is too expensive as we've seen many times in the last few years.

Malbec

30th January 2011, 13:47

Hondo

30th January 2011, 20:26

I do believe the talk of Williams going public with a stock offer is a prelude to both of them retiring in 2012 and taking as much money with them as they can, while the getting is still good. I think their "the car is the star" attitude hurt them and, quite frankly, I think there was a dark "why bother" gene slipped into their sub-concious minds. They spent a pile of time and money developing and building their automatic cars only to have the FIA and other teams pull the rug out from under them when they could not produce as good a product. F1 is about technology, or so they thought, but their success ended up biting them. I don't blame them for slipping off into a funk.

Sonic

30th January 2011, 21:46

Strange POV you've got there Hondo, but if thats what you believe - fair enough.

I have to say though if Frank and co. were the SHOW ME THE MONEY kind then surely they would have cut and run when F1 was at its peak and BAR was looking for a way in with their own team or when BMW came calling with a blank cheque book. Deals of that magnitude would far out weight any payday they might get if they sell up now.

That said I think if someone (the right someone - not just a rich SOB) came along with the intention of investing in Williams as an engineering and race team then I do believe Frank would bow out.

Hondo

30th January 2011, 23:43

Sonic

31st January 2011, 08:28

You never know when someone has indulged their passion to the point they are ready to walk away with no regrets. I have driven performance cars my entire life. Worked on them, modified them, improved them and loved going fast through the turns. About 4 years ago the interest just went away, it didn't matter anymore, wasn't important. Now I go to and fro in a pickup truck and don't miss the fast cars at all. Things change, especially with age.

Now on that we can agree and if the senior management at Williams wanted to cash in and walk away, after forty years, who would begrudge them that?

My gut instinct is that Frank Williams remains passionate about Motorsport and is looking at these options to ensure the future survival of the team and therefore its competetivness - I have no proof it's just my impression based on watching and following Williams for more than twenty years.

jens

3rd February 2011, 14:54

I think it is interesting to compare McLaren and Williams, two British greats, especially as in mid-90's it was Williams, who seemed in a much better situation. But big-name sponsors and Mercedes kept belief in McLaren, which finally materialized. In this comparison it still looks like that Williams downfall has been the owners' reluctance to be flexible enough with any of their partners, even if selling out to BMW may have left them in trouble for 2010. But McLaren sold 40% stake to Mercedes, they also offered a more appealing deal to Mr Newey.

Now, of course, McLaren is in a similar situation, in which Williams has been before. Seeking for total independence, having got rid of the ties with a car manufacturer. But McLaren has managed to prepare for the future in a much better way than Williams for 2006, as they have still got big-name sponsors and drivers. They are also becoming a car manufacturer by itself, while Williams hasn't widened their activities that much (just KERS). Let's see if McLaren can maintain that high-profile level.

gloomyDAY

7th February 2011, 16:05

March 2, 2011.

Are you ready to buy their shares?

Sonic

7th February 2011, 17:42

One please! ;)

Big Ben

8th February 2011, 07:51

This would only lead to a situation where, once VW became disinterested, the team would fold. If you allow a manufacturer to take control, they'll eventually destroy the team once the board decides F1 is too expensive as we've seen many times in the last few years.

I don't think there's much danger there. VW doesn't seem interested in F1 and I think they said they might be interested in supplying engines if they like the new regs and I guess in that capacity they would be interested to supply them to as many teams as possible... I don't remember the exact words but it left me the impression that they are not interested in having a team in F1.... These is the kind of involvement I like from a car manufacturer and if they will supply or have a limited partnership with Williams even better.

billiaml

8th February 2011, 15:31

March 2, 2011.

Are you ready to buy their shares?

May I see a Financial Prospectus?

anthonyvop

9th February 2011, 05:12

Shame that a once great team is now dead to me.

ArrowsFA1

9th February 2011, 12:52

Shame that a once great team is now dead to me.
How can a team that still has the same founders and owners at the helm be dead to you :confused:

The Williams team remains one of the true originals in the sport. Only McLaren and Ferrari have remained unchanged in terms of name or ownership for anything nearly as long.

anthonyvop

9th February 2011, 18:43

How can a team that still has the same founders and owners at the helm be dead to you :confused:

The Williams team remains one of the true originals in the sport. Only McLaren and Ferrari have remained unchanged in terms of name or ownership for anything nearly as long.

Their new sponsor.

ArrowsFA1

9th February 2011, 18:46

Their new sponsor.
You object to them taking a pay driver or you object to the politics of the sponsor?

Mark

10th February 2011, 08:42

Williams have had many varied sponsors over their history. Their most sucessful period was with a tobacco sponsor after all.

Dave B

10th February 2011, 09:55

Hell, I even supported them when they had "Bin Laden" on the side of the car :p

anthonyvop

10th February 2011, 13:46

You object to them taking a pay driver or you object to the politics of the sponsor?

Politics....to put it simply

anthonyvop

10th February 2011, 13:48

Williams have had many varied sponsors over their history. Their most sucessful period was with a tobacco sponsor after all.

I have no problem with a tobacco sponsor. It is a legal product.

Roamy

10th February 2011, 14:29

Amen Tony

gloomyDAY

10th February 2011, 15:51

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-09/williams-reveals-share-price-for-f1-s-1st-ipo.html

That's a pretty steep share price! No thanks.

Dave B

10th February 2011, 16:00

Their new sponsor.

To be fair, you'd be hard-pressed to find a company with less morals than RBS had.

Mark

10th February 2011, 17:30

To be fair, you'd be hard-pressed to find a company with less morals than RBS had.

The same one that kept hassling my Mum for £1.50 outstanding balance on my Dads account after he'd died. Yep, nice sorts.

Mia 01

10th February 2011, 18:05

The floating wont solv their issues I´m afraid, they are goiing down as they have been for a while.

anthonyvop

10th February 2011, 21:34

The same one that kept hassling my Mum for £1.50 outstanding balance on my Dads account after he'd died. Yep, nice sorts.

I would hardly put a financial company charging 1.50 to your dad's estate in the same league as a company whose owners are channeling funds to terrorist organizations & stealing private property. But then again some people are OK with that but god forbid somebody sells a cigarette.

BDunnell

10th February 2011, 21:59

I would hardly put a financial company charging 1.50 to your dad's estate in the same league as a company whose owners are channeling funds to terrorist organizations & stealing private property.

Proof? (Oh, and from a reputable source.)

gloomyDAY

10th February 2011, 23:01

Proof? (Oh, and from a reputable source.)I hope you're not serious. Colombian Special Forces found a laptop from a raid in Ecuador (almost started a border war) that directly linked Chavez to the FARCs. If you don't believe me, then perhaps you should read what the U.N. inspector wrote when he corroborated the evidence.

Can we please get back on topic? I want to know if anyone is really going to buy their shares.
I've been thinking about it, but Williams no longer seems like a viable and competitive team.

BDunnell

10th February 2011, 23:06

I hope you're not serious. Colombian Special Forces found a laptop from a raid in Ecuador (almost started a border war) that directly linked Chavez to the FARCs. If you don't believe me, then perhaps you should read what the U.N. inspector wrote when he corroborated the evidence.

Oh, him. Now I see.

gloomyDAY

10th February 2011, 23:08

Oh, him. Now I see.Did you think anthonyvop was writing about Frank? lol

BDunnell

10th February 2011, 23:13

Did you think anthonyvop was writing about Frank? lol

To be honest, he would probably accuse anyone who has ever donated money to a vaguely left-wing cause to have 'funded terrorism'.

DexDexter

11th February 2011, 15:24

To be honest, he would probably accuse anyone who has ever donated money to a vaguely left-wing cause to have 'funded terrorism'.

That guy (not you :) ) is at it again, could the moderators put the chit chat discussion where it belongs.

gloomyDAY

2nd March 2011, 16:18

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-02/williams-f1-drops-in-frankfurt-trading-after-83-million-public-offering.html

The stock is finally available, but it looks as if it has already lost some of its value.

Ranger

19th April 2011, 10:21

Time to bring this up again after that disasterous showing in China, still no points in 2011.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90865

Williams technical director Sam Michael says that changes 'will' be made to the organisation to turn around its disappointing start to the season - and he has not ruled out moving to a different role or leaving the outfit totally if that is what is needed.

Sonic

19th April 2011, 10:26

Valve Bounce

19th April 2011, 10:39

Funny I am thinking back all those years when I first started contributing to a motorsport forum - it was the Williams forum which I found on the side of their cars. "Mouse" was the guy in charge of the forum. Regrettably Williams pulled out of funding that forum and it folded. Personally, I think that Williams's fortunes were cast when they got rid of Damon Hill. OK! so they still had Jacques who won them a championship, but Jacques abandoned Williams in the same way that Williams abandoned Damon, and from that day on, their fortunes began a slow decline. Am I sorry? why would I? I am more sorry at the demise of Cooper and Lotus, and even Brabham when Sir Jack sold his team.

Do I feel sorry for Williams? I used to be a great Williams fan, but as they proceed inexorably into eventual oblivion, we can always turn to Ferrari and hope they make a great comeback. Williams will never be great again.

Mark

19th April 2011, 17:49

As much as I'd love to agree. That's not the case, they lost two critical elements, Newey and Renault. Just look at what that combination is achieving now.

Malbec

19th April 2011, 20:09

Yeah, I was going to comment on this today, but you beat me to it. Its easy to blame SM, his arrival in the role has corresponded with their fall from grace, but will simply putting him on gardening knave solve the issues? I really don't know.

2011 has been very poor so far after such high hopes pre- season.

Up until this season I'd have explained it away with their budget not being at the same level as it used to be but they are now being outperformed by teams like Sauber which have a smaller budget and had massive upheavals in the past couple of seasons. In fact they probably don't use that much less money than Renault and we know what they can do.

Money isn't the issue because as we know they don't have any sponsorship space left on their car and they've turned a profit for at least the last two to three seasons.

Nor are the drivers. We can disagree about whether Rubens is absolutely at the top level but he's definitely pretty handy and very experienced but he's not in a position to threaten a points scoring position at the moment. Hulkenberg was OK, Maldonaldo I'm not sure about but at least he brings cash.

I don't tend to blame individuals like the technical directors because I believe its the mid-level engineers that really contribute towards making a quick car. Williams clearly has some talent, enough to develop things like their ultra-small gearbox but ultimately they lack that strength in depth across the board.

Every season they seem to fall back a little further, a third of a second per year. They only have a short window of a couple of seasons before their lack of success really starts hurting their sponsorship income. I think they should loosen the pursestrings and really go out to poach some engineers from rival teams.

steveaki13

19th April 2011, 20:13

As much as I'd love to agree. That's not the case, they lost two critical elements, Newey and Renault. Just look at what that combination is achieving now.

Seems as though those two are almost a certain championship winner at some point.

Five years time Virgin Renault sign Newey and the championship is theirs. :p :

It is a shame for Williams though, after there dip in the late 90's it seemed as though they had overcome them with BMW.

I really think the chances of seeing a Williams reguarly winning in the future are slim.

djparky

20th April 2011, 22:00

As much as I'd love to agree. That's not the case, they lost two critical elements, Newey and Renault. Just look at what that combination is achieving now.

they could have coped with the loss of Renault- but Adrian Newey had the magic key- drivers come and go- but a genius like Newey- Frank & Patrick were f******g stupid not to give him shares in the team or whatever it was he wanted at the time.

They looked good at times during the BMW era- some of the problem lay with the drivers- neither Ralf or JPM really gave a **** about developing the car and were only intent on beating each other- Williams lost that vital driver technical input duringn that era-say what you like about Damon Hill but he did provide them with that technical leadership

Post BMW it's been the occasional good result but they've fallen behind- last years pairing was the ideal mix between youth and experience. Sadly such is the state of Williams at the moment they ditched the talented Hulkenberg for (limited talent) pay driver Maldonado- who took 4 years to limp to the GP2 title- and was soundly beaten by Hulkenberg when they were team mates.

they've painted the car in Rothmans colours but that doesn't make it go any quicker and finishing behind a Lotus at China just about sums it up- I don't see anyway back from this, nor do I see any manufacturer being remotely interested in them as a partner. Their one asset- Barichello- won't stick around too long if it continues like this

As a Williams fan from the days of Alan Jones I'd rather see them pull the plug on the F1 team than carry on like this- they're now behind Sauber, Force India and Torro Rosso

Sonic

20th April 2011, 22:10

they could have coped with the loss of Renault- but Adrian Newey had the magic key- drivers come and go- but a genius like Newey- Frank & Patrick were f******g stupid not to give him shares in the team or whatever it was he wanted at the time.

They looked good at times during the BMW era- some of the problem lay with the drivers- neither Ralf or JPM really gave a **** about developing the car and were only intent on beating each other- Williams lost that vital driver technical input duringn that era-say what you like about Damon Hill but he did provide them with that technical leadership

Post BMW it's been the occasional good result but they've fallen behind- last years pairing was the ideal mix between youth and experience. Sadly such is the state of Williams at the moment they ditched the talented Hulkenberg for (limited talent) pay driver Maldonado- who took 4 years to limp to the GP2 title- and was soundly beaten by Hulkenberg when they were team mates.

they've painted the car in Rothmans colours but that doesn't make it go any quicker and finishing behind a Lotus at China just about sums it up- I don't see anyway back from this, nor do I see any manufacturer being remotely interested in them as a partner. Their one asset- Barichello- won't stick around too long if it continues like this

As a Williams fan from the days of Alan Jones I'd rather see them pull the plug on the F1 team than carry on like this- they're now behind Sauber, Force India and Torro Rosso

Sad, but true. :(

Koz

21st April 2011, 01:07

gloomyDAY

22nd April 2011, 06:12

I am wondering, is this year's pace (or lack thereof) because of bad design/areo or perhaps the cosworth engine...

Why didn't Williams attempt to get a Renault engine last year and opted for the cosworth??Williams opted for the Cosworth engine because they made a deal with the devil (Bernie). The small guy fronted them money, so they wouldn't dry out of funds. Now they're stuck with an engine that's probably down on power and not as responsive as other engines on the grid.

I'm glad I didn't buy any of their stock! Looks to be getting cheaper every time I look up the stock.

ArrowsFA1

22nd April 2011, 08:11

I am wondering, is this year's pace (or lack thereof) because of bad design/areo or perhaps the cosworth engine...
Hard to say about the engine given that the only benchmarks out there are the HRTs & Virgins but the slowest Williams was more than 2secs quicker than the fastest Virgin in qualifying at the last GP. Is the Williams chassis that much better, and in which case would Mercedes, Ferrari or Renault power put them even higher up the grid?

While Williams current position clearly is not good, those with longer memories will remember the depths to which Ferrari had sunk in 1991-3 and how long it took them to get back to the very top. We talk about Frank's team not winning a WDC since 1997 but that's 'only' 14yrs ago. It took Ferrari from 1979 to 2000 to get themselves another drivers championship and I don't remember people saying about them what is now being said by some about Williams.

Sonic

22nd April 2011, 10:36

CNR

23rd April 2011, 12:52

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=43440

Williams loses nearly a third of its value in seven weeks
‎

markabilly

23rd April 2011, 13:13

Malbec

26th April 2011, 00:39

Now they're stuck with an engine that's probably down on power and not as responsive as other engines on the grid.

I think the belief in the paddock is that the Cosworth is fine for qualifying but has to be tuned down a lot for the race. Certainly last year Williams' tended to qualify well then race badly.

Are Cosworth going to develop an all new engine for 2013? If not Williams could go shopping for a better engine but my suspicion is that the rot isn't limited to just the engine.

ShiftingGears

26th April 2011, 11:19

I think it says a lot that Sam Michael is prepared to put his head on the chopping block.

Bezza

26th April 2011, 16:04

I am not sure how much longer Williams can survive. I can't see them winning another race, bar a fluke. I am pretty sure Barrichello will retire at the end of 2011, especially considering the woeful start to the season and a struggling car. Maldonado so far does not appear good enough.

I think Montoya's Brazil 2004 will be the last, and I hope they call it quits before they are overtaken by Virgin and Lotus!

I will predict them to call it a day at the end of 2012.

The only thing that would save them is a hook up with a manufacturer, such as Honda or VW who invest in the team. They are only going to go backwards this season and I see them struggling for points consistently.

djparky

26th April 2011, 16:28

It's a good point Arrows, but if we look at where Ferrari were 14 years after that last title in '80, Berger was just bringing them out of the doldrums with their first win in 4 (?) seasons at Germany. A year later, Alesi also won, and we all know what happened after Schu arrived.

I suppose what I am saying is that Ferarri were on their way back. At the same stage Williams appear to be slipping further and further down the pack.

yeah Ferrari had a long slump- but they never lacked for funding- they never took on pay drivers- they just lacked the right drivers, technical team. The position with Williams is very different- they do not have Fiat/Marlboro funding them.

I don't believe that the Cosworth lacks for power- at the moment it's not with a decent team so it's difficult to tell how good or bad it is. I don't know why Williams didn't go for a Renault or Mercedes engine either- presumably they couldn't afford to do so

Mark

26th April 2011, 18:13

Ferrari were never towards the back of the field. They were usually just off the lead with McLaren and Williams, and latterly Benetton beating them. And the main issues were structural within the team. Brawn shook them up and they started winning!

Koz

27th April 2011, 00:18

The only thing that would save them is a hook up with a manufacturer, such as Honda or VW who invest in the team.

But why would anyone care to buy into Williams when the likes of Sauber and STR are available?
To attract anyone they would need to some results, standing as things are now perhaps Lotus will out qualify them by the end of the season.

ArrowsFA1

27th April 2011, 10:09

Ferrari had a long slump- but they never lacked for funding...
Which just goes to show that money alone does not win races. We are told that Williams have an "adequate" budget. Of course teams always want more, but I don't think a lack of money is the issue.

Ferrari were never towards the back of the field. They were usually just off the lead with McLaren and Williams, and latterly Benetton beating them.
True, although it can be argued that the grid today is far more competitive & closely matched overall that it was in the early 90's when we were seeing seconds, rather than 10ths, as the difference. The top teams then were a class apart, and while Ferrari fell out of that group they were never going to turn into another Fomet or Coloni.

DexDexter

27th April 2011, 20:02

Which just goes to show that money alone does not win races. We are told that Williams have an "adequate" budget. Of course teams always want more, but I don't think a lack of money is the issue.

True, although it can be argued that the grid today is far more competitive & closely matched overall that it was in the early 90's when we were seeing seconds, rather than 10ths, as the difference. The top teams then were a class apart, and while Ferrari fell out of that group they were never going to turn into another Fomet or Coloni.
I agree, Ferrari were really uncompetitive for much of 92, for example, to an extent that sometimes they gave their customer team Scuderia Italia pump fuel instead of the more powerful "rocket" fuel because they were afraid the slow Dallara-Ferraris might outqualify Capelli.

Malbec

27th April 2011, 20:20

True, although it can be argued that the grid today is far more competitive & closely matched overall that it was in the early 90's when we were seeing seconds, rather than 10ths, as the difference. The top teams then were a class apart, and while Ferrari fell out of that group they were never going to turn into another Fomet or Coloni.

Ferrari have always enjoyed a strong brand that attracted sponsorship despite their results. I'm not sure Williams has quite the same brand strength to survive such a prolonged drop in performance. Now they have a good sponsorship portfolio, they really need to turn things round. If they don't they could start losing sponsors quite quickly if they are still struggling to beat Force India's and STR's in a few seasons time.

ArrowsFA1

28th April 2011, 09:51

Ferrari have always enjoyed a strong brand that attracted sponsorship despite their results. I'm not sure Williams has quite the same brand strength to survive such a prolonged drop in performance. Now they have a good sponsorship portfolio, they really need to turn things round. If they don't they could start losing sponsors quite quickly if they are still struggling to beat Force India's and STR's in a few seasons time.
Fair point. There's no doubt they need to turn things around but I'm not prepared to write them off.

CNR

3rd May 2011, 12:41

spygate
Sam Michael and aerodynamicist Jon Tomlinson have quit
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/formula_one/13267766.stm

Sam Michael has quit as Williams technical director as Mike Coughlan - the man at the heart of the spy-gate scandal - returns as chief engineer.

Mekola

3rd May 2011, 12:49

Wonder if Michael and Tomlinson have quit not only by team results, but because Coughlan will join Williams.

I am evil Homer

3rd May 2011, 13:22

I think Michael was a talented guy but promoted too soon. He'll end up somewhere else I'm sure

Garry Walker

3rd May 2011, 17:38

Wonder if Michael and Tomlinson have quit not only by team results, but because Coughlan will join Williams.No.

Malbec

3rd May 2011, 21:25

Williams must have been quite desperate to hire Coughlan with his tainted past to lead their team.

I have to say I think they got it wrong, the problems with the team lie with the core engineering departments, not merely with the leadership. I hope they spend as much effort poaching good mid-level engineers from rival teams.

They are still lacking an aero chief, I wonder if its time for Willis to be called back to his team?

gloomyDAY

4th May 2011, 04:32

Hawkmoon

4th May 2011, 05:26

I'm not sure if anyone else feels the same way, but I'll be glad to see Sam Michael out of Williams.

If Michael is to blame for Williams' demise, and I don't think he is, then the fault lies with Williams and Head. They hired. They promoted him. They kept him even though the results declined.

I think Williams demise has it's roots in Sir Frank being unwilling to let go of the team. Williams needed to form an alliance with a manufacturer just as McLaren did with Mercedes. They had the chance with BMW but Williams and Head wouldn't relinquish any control to the Germans so they left and bought Sauber. Williams have been in decline ever since. Now, it can be argued that BMW ultimately failed but I think that the Williams-BMW combination was, and would have continued to be, much stonger than Williams and BMW were/are as seperate entities. BMW may still have pulled out when they did but Williams would have been in a much stonger postion to attract a new partner than they are now.

Stick a fork in them, they're done. It's only a question of when.

SGWilko

4th May 2011, 09:05

They had the chance with BMW but Williams and Head wouldn't relinquish any control to the Germans.

And quite rightly so, as we have seen, ze Gemans didn't hesitate to pull out when the going got tough. All those years bitching at the Williams being sh!t, but the BMW motor fandabbydosey - when it came to the crunch and BMW set up their own stall, they were sh!tter than when they were with Williams.

ArrowsFA1

4th May 2011, 09:27

I think Williams demise has it's roots in Sir Frank being unwilling to let go of the team.
Why should he "let go" of the company he created?

555-04Q2

4th May 2011, 11:26

Why should he "let go" of the company he created?

Basic business practice...it's called adapting to survive and Williams is a business first and a race team second.

ArrowsFA1

4th May 2011, 11:38

Basic business practice...it's called adapting to survive and Williams is a business first and a race team second.
And adapting to survive as a business is exactly what Williams have done, which is why their main issues are not financial.

Selling the team to the likes of BMW who are 'here today, gone tomorrow', might have seen Frank Williams out of F1 by now. Given what he's achieved during his career most wouldn't have blamed him for taking the money and relaxing in the sunset, but that's not for him. He tried it in the 1970's when, to survive, he sold his team to Walter Wolf. It wasn't long before FW was back, and where are Wolf now?

Hawkmoon

4th May 2011, 12:00

And quite rightly so, as we have seen, ze Gemans didn't hesitate to pull out when the going got tough. All those years bitching at the Williams being sh!t, but the BMW motor fandabbydosey - when it came to the crunch and BMW set up their own stall, they were sh!tter than when they were with Williams.

You're right but together they were both better. The problem was Williams seemed to want to keep BMW at arms length rather than embrace them as McLaren did with Mercedes. I think that decision negatively impacted both Williams and BMW.

Why should he "let go" of the company he created?

I don't mean that Williams should have ceded complete control to BMW. I think he would have been wise to sell a stake in the team to the Bavarians whilst keeping a controling interest. Maybe BMW wouldn't have gone for that but history has shown that Williams as an independent is a mere shadow of the factory backed teams that came before.

555-04Q2

4th May 2011, 14:45

And adapting to survive as a business is exactly what Williams have done, which is why their main issues are not financial.

Selling the team to the likes of BMW who are 'here today, gone tomorrow', might have seen Frank Williams out of F1 by now. Given what he's achieved during his career most wouldn't have blamed him for taking the money and relaxing in the sunset, but that's not for him. He tried it in the 1970's when, to survive, he sold his team to Walter Wolf. It wasn't long before FW was back, and where are Wolf now?

True, but against the might of the factory teams now, they have no chance of ever reaching the heights they did before. F1 has changed dramatically over the last 15 years. And its these 15 years of stagnation that has seen Williams fade to the middle of the pack when they once dominated season after season. Sad :(

gloomyDAY

4th May 2011, 20:36

The question is still have in mind is quite simple.

How did this all happen? I'm not sure as to why Williams keeps waiting around for something to happen.

555-04Q2

5th May 2011, 06:42

The question is still have in mind is quite simple.

How did this all happen? I'm not sure as to why Williams keeps waiting around for something to happen.

Maybe its the stubborn old farts who head the company and don't want to change or progress? I see it all the time in business. Companies that have been very successful for 20, 30 or 40 years suddenly vanish as they refuse to adapt to the times and are overtaken by their competitors. "But our business model worked 30 years ago".

Malbec

5th May 2011, 19:54

Why does Williams have to be desperate to hire Mike Coughlan? Hiring a man of his engineering caliber is not easy to find and hire. I still think the Spygate scandal smells fishy for various reasons, but I don't want to get into that matter. This decision is perfectly logical, professional, and prudent in order to get Williams F1 back on track.

Whatever you or I think about the spygate scandal and who was to blame, he was found guilty of handling intellectual property from another firm which is something just about any businessman would be aware is beyond the pale. How are potential sponsors going to view the fact that someone found guilty of industrial espionage heads the technical team?

Also regardless of guilt Coughlan has been out of the business for a couple of years during which a fair amount has moved on. I can't see how he would be preferable to an equally competent technical director of a rival team currently working in F1 who is entirely up to speed. My suspicion is Williams couldn't find one willing to jump ship.

gloomyDAY

6th May 2011, 01:47

How are potential sponsors going to view the fact that someone found guilty of industrial espionage heads the technical team?I don't think sponsors care as long as there are positive results.

Also regardless of guilt Coughlan has been out of the business for a couple of years during which a fair amount has moved on. I can't see how he would be preferable to an equally competent technical director of a rival team currently working in F1 who is entirely up to speed. My suspicion is Williams couldn't find one willing to jump ship.I think you should give Coughlan the benefit of the doubt. He was just appointed to Williams, so don't expect an overnight change. I also think you're underestimating a person who has the potential to turn around a struggling team. I may be right, I may be wrong, but only time will tell.

ArrowsFA1

6th May 2011, 09:07

Whatever you or I think about the spygate scandal and who was to blame, he was found guilty of handling intellectual property from another firm...
Strictly speaking he wasn't found guilty. There was a London High Court hearing where Coughlan was officially accused of receiving stolen and secret documents. However, in excange for providing a sworn affidavit to Ferrari, he was not required to appear.

Legal proceedings against him, and others, in Italy were dropped, in exchange for a payments of €180,000, so the case did not go to court there either for him to be found guilty or otherwise.

That's not saying he wasn't guilty, just that he did not have his day in court.

christophulus

6th May 2011, 21:52

Williams need to try something, they're slipping further away. Coughlan will be watched like a hawk no doubt, so there won't be a repeat of Spygate.

anthonyvop

7th May 2011, 03:48

How are potential sponsors going to view the fact that someone found guilty of industrial espionage heads the technical team?

PDVSA would look on it favorably and would try to use the info to steal elections and fund Narco-Terrorists.

Zeakiwi

9th May 2011, 01:34

If this vehicle goes as well in the real world as it looks...............

http://www.flagworld.com/news/?tag=carl-peter-forster

Koz

9th May 2011, 04:23

If this vehicle goes as well in the real world as it looks...............

http://www.flagworld.com/news/?tag=carl-peter-forster

This might just be the beginings of Tata's entry into F1.

AndyL

9th May 2011, 10:43

If this vehicle goes as well in the real world as it looks...............

http://www.flagworld.com/news/?tag=carl-peter-forster

I wonder if it'll have a V12 engine and four wheel drive ;)

I am evil Homer

9th May 2011, 10:46

Williams the listed company's future looks pretty solid

Williams as an F1 team...less so. I also wonder if Tata might buy heavily into them, which would no doubt annoy a certain other Indian team owner.

ArrowsFA1

10th May 2011, 08:48

Williams has anounced its annual results for the year to December 31 2010, the first such report since the company sold shares to the public.
The team’s turnover was £91m – down from £108.3m in 2009 – but reported profits, after investments in new subsidiaries were taken into account, were up from £4.5m to £5.8m. The numbers also show a much reduced debt.
http://adamcooperf1.com/2011/05/10/williams-made-profit-of-5-8m-in-2010/

SGWilko

11th May 2011, 08:59

http://adamcooperf1.com/2011/05/10/williams-made-profit-of-5-8m-in-2010/

That to me, in this current climate, looks like quite a healthy company.

christophulus

24th June 2012, 15:17

I'm tempted to drag this up again after another potential podium slips away. Maldonado's money has undoubtedly stabilised the team and given them a chance to rebuild and design a decent car, but he has cost them at least two solid results this year through avoidable accidents, as well as binning the car in Canada quali.

On his day he's definitely got the speed, certainly compared to some of the other drivers they've employed for the cash (Nakajima for one), but do you think Williams will stick with him and hope he calms down, or do they have to bite the bullet and walk away from the sponsorship? Despite the win in Spain they're no better off in the championship than last year, even with the massive improvement in performance. A more "reliable" driver might not have the raw pace but would have probably brought home a few more points.

Ranger

24th June 2012, 15:36

To answer the question, lots of repair bills in the short term.

F1boat

24th June 2012, 21:13

Maldonado's money has undoubtedly stabilised the team and given them a chance to rebuild and design a decent car, but he has cost them at least two solid results

He has won them a race. Something which they really missed. They are not gonna fire him.

52Paddy

24th June 2012, 21:41

Like any inexperienced driver, Maldonado tends to get fired up when racing at the sharp end of the grid. The good news is that he is finding himself there on regular occasion as of late. The bad news is that, at times, he seems to suffer brain fade and throw and otherwise decent result out the window. I don't see this being a continuing occurrence and, as he gains more experience, I expect he will curb his limit and use his speed more intelligently. Williams are getting more TV coverage time through Maldonado's race showcases than they are through Senna with his famous name so, despite the couple of nasty repair bills and the few heart-sinking moments, I reckon Pastor is relatively safe in the Williams squad.

zako85

24th June 2012, 21:50

Maldonado is a keeper IMO. I think he can get more podiums this year. Bruno Senna on the other hand needs to up his game or lose his seat. I think someone like Kovalainen or may be Petrov could big a good pairing in that seat.

aryan

24th June 2012, 23:17

I'Despite the win in Spain they're no better off in the championship than last year, even with the massive improvement in performance.

A win gets you much more than just points. The amount of media exposure that you get from a win is immense. It's also the best thing you can do in order to attract sponsors.

This accident was of course Maldonado's fault, and he's had a few of them now, but in my book, he is still a rookie and is learning. He has the raw pace and is finding himself at the sharp end of the grid quite a lot, patience and maturity comes with experience. He still hasn't even started in 30 GPs. If you look at, say Hakkinen's career when he had started less than 30 GPs, you will find many bone-headed moves as well.

Ranger

25th June 2012, 00:24

In any case, at least they are an attractive option for fast drivers next year.

Maldonado will probably be retained.

I fail to see how Senna would be their best available driver for next year.

rjbetty

25th June 2012, 00:31

Does anyone know what state Williams' shares are in? Cos I was gonna BUY a couple before the season started. Oh how I'm kicking myself now!!

aryan

25th June 2012, 04:31

Does anyone know what state Williams' shares are in? Cos I was gonna BUY a couple before the season started. Oh how I'm kicking myself now!!

It closed at €22.99 which is at their 52-week high. It was about €17.19 before the season started, so it's gone up by about 28% since the start of the season. The stock has performed decently but not spectacularly, which is exactly how I would describe their season racing-wise as well.

F1boat

25th June 2012, 12:02

Maldonado reminds me of Montoya... a latino driver with immense pace, but prone to errors...

jens

25th June 2012, 16:07

DexDexter

25th June 2012, 19:56

I wouldn't let Maldonado go, just not yet. Even regardless of the money he is bringing with him, he has shown plenty of potential. I think he just needs some coaching and driver mindset training. Is that what Wurz was hired for by Williams? In any case, historically Williams hasn't been particularly fond of supporting and improving drivers. I don't know, which kind of discussions they have been having in the team, but this is what they should do right now. Instead of sacking another driver without having done everything to fulfill his potential...

I agree. Why on earth should Williams let Maldonado go when he has actually won a race and is quick if erratic. Bit like Andrea De Cesaris at his best. The one who needs to go is Senna, he is wasting a good car and should be replaced by Bottas immediately. He qualifies low and keeps touching cars in the races.

ArrowsFA1

26th June 2012, 08:45

The one who needs to go is Senna, he is wasting a good car and should be replaced by Bottas immediately. He qualifies low and keeps touching cars in the races.
Bruno needs to improve, no doubt, but this is his first full F1 season. The evidence of his F3 & GP2 career shows that he progresses well and produces results so talk of replacing him immediately is far too premature IMHO.

Knock-on

26th June 2012, 09:06

Even though I am still annoyed at Pastor for his boneheaded move on Lewis, I agree he shouldn't be replaced. He has shown a lot of potential but needs to start to learn now if he wants to stay in F1. There have been too many stupid stunts so far and the last Williams needs is another egotistical JPM. I was a huge fan of Montoya but he couldn't keep his big head and apathetic attitude out of the car. Pastor needs to fess up to his mistakes and knuckle down.

As for Bruno, I agree. Give him a bit more time to see how he settles. Next year will see whether he's a keeper.

Ranger

26th June 2012, 10:18

Bruno needs to improve, no doubt, but this is his first full F1 season. The evidence of his F3 & GP2 career shows that he progresses well and produces results so talk of replacing him immediately is far too premature IMHO.

He has driven 33 F1 races and you are telling me that Williams should keep him based on his F3 and GP2 results??

As for Bruno, I agree. Give him a bit more time to see how he settles. Next year will see whether he's a keeper.

Bruno has proven nothing so far in his F1 career. He is qualifying poorly and scoring no points in an occasionally front-running car, and you think that next year we should evaluate whether or not he should be on the grid...

Hopefully Williams have more sense than that.

The one who needs to go is Senna, he is wasting a good car and should be replaced by Bottas immediately. He qualifies low and keeps touching cars in the races.

If he makes rapid improvement then there's no problem, but he should definitely be told he won't finish the season at his current rate.

DexDexter

26th June 2012, 11:27

Bruno needs to improve, no doubt, but this is his first full F1 season. The evidence of his F3 & GP2 career shows that he progresses well and produces results so talk of replacing him immediately is far too premature IMHO.

That maybe true but it's clear that Williams is a good car and the drivers are not taking full advantage of it. I admit I'm somewhat bias in this case since I want too see Valtteri Bottas on the grid cause I think he is the next Finnish WDC :)

ArrowsFA1

26th June 2012, 11:57

He has driven 33 F1 races and you are telling me that Williams should keep him based on his F3 and GP2 results??
No. I am saying that his F3 and GP2 results indicate an ability to learn and develop as a driver, and to produce results particularly given his late start in the sport.

He may have competed in 33 F1 races, but I don't see HRT (or Hispania Racing as they were then) being any kind of barometer of ability. Renault was rather different. In his first race for them at Spa he qualified 7th, something a certain Schumacher did in his F1 debut. (No, I'm not claiming Bruno is as good as Michael!!)

Prior to Spain this season Senna had scored more points than Maldonado and was seen by many as doing a good job for the team. Obviously Pastor's win changed things. It has put more pressure on Senna. He is driving a car capable of winning races (on a given day) and podiums which, obviously, he has not yet produced.

So, from my point of view Senna could be doing better but I think he has the ability to do so, and should be given the time to do so.

F1boat

26th June 2012, 15:53

Senna should finish the season, no point in rushing Bottas to the car.

Stuartf12007

26th June 2012, 17:42

I loved the job Pastor did on Hamilton, right in the side.....bish bash bosh!!!!

AndyL

26th June 2012, 18:06

I agree. Why on earth should Williams let Maldonado go when he has actually won a race and is quick if erratic.

As the old adage goes, much easier to get a fast driver to stop crashing than to get a slow driver to go fast.

Garry Walker

26th June 2012, 20:31

Prior to Spain this season Senna had scored more points than Maldonado and was seen by many as doing a good job for the team. Obviously Pastor's win changed things. It has put more pressure on Senna. He is driving a car capable of winning races (on a given day) and podiums which, obviously, he has not yet produced.

Seen by many? I wonder who you are referring to. Senna has failed pretty bad this year, has he even been faster than Maldo in qualy? Just because he lucked into some points doesn't change the fact that Maldonado has been MUCH faster than him in pretty much every race. I like both drivers to be honest, but there is no denying, Senna has been quite bad. He has no pace, Maldonado is maybe a little too agressive, but better agressive than a coward who let's other drivers push him around.

ArrowsFA1

26th June 2012, 20:46

Just because he lucked into some points doesn't change the fact that Maldonado has been MUCH faster than him in pretty much every race.
I agree Maldonado has been faster, but equally he has made errors costing the team valuable points in Australia and Valencia, errors which are reminiscent of the kind of driving I believe he was prone to in GP2. There are also those who argued he "lucked into" his win in Spain. I certainly wouldn't argue that because I think it was probably one of the drives of the year so far, but without it on points there wouldn't be much between the two Williams drivers.

As I said I think Senna has to improve, but talk of replacing him now, or at anytime before the end of the season when he will have had a year to prove himself, is misplaced IMHO.

GravettFan99

26th June 2012, 20:47

Garry Walker

26th June 2012, 20:58

I agree Maldonado has been faster, but equally he has made errors costing the team valuable points in Australia and Valencia, errors which are reminiscent of the kind of driving I believe he was prone to in GP2.He didn't make any error in Valencia.

There are also those who argued he "lucked into" his win in Spain. I certainly wouldn't argue that because I think it was probably one of the drives of the year so far, but without it on points there wouldn't be much between the two Williams drivers.Once again you say "there are those who have argued he lucked into his win at spain", but who are those? Some nobodies posting at internet forums don't count.
Points are points, but pacewise there has been no contest and Maldo has been MUCH faster.

As I said I think Senna has to improve, but talk of replacing him now, or at anytime before the end of the season when he will have had a year to prove himself, is misplaced IMHO.
Well, I'd give him till the end of season, but if he shows no improvement in the next races then I would dump him before the end of the season actually

DexDexter

26th June 2012, 21:29

I'd say for Senna to go on and finish the season, I think there's more to come of him! :) Then Williams can determine whether or not to keep Senna. Maldonado has already proven that he is a keeper with his win, I think. There's more potential in both drivers, so Bottas shouldn't be rushed in as it is.

The problem for Williams is that this year is probably the only year they'll have a car that can win races. Sooner or later the status quo will return and Williams may look back and realize that the team's drivers wasted a golden opportunity to finish high in the constructor's championship and earn a lot of dough for the team and safeguard its future.

aryan

26th June 2012, 23:40

The problem for Williams is that this year is probably the only year they'll have a car that can win races. Sooner or later the status quo will return

Why is that? What is going to change in 2013 for example that others are going to cope better than Williams?

zako85

27th June 2012, 02:15

IMHO, the "status quo" was broken because the cars are so equalized. Engines? Frozen and re-equalized more than once. 10 out of 12 teams have access to race and championship winning engines. This situation is a far cry from say the early 90s when Renault dominated other engines by far and for most teams it was extremely hard to get hands on an engine built by a major car company. Aero restrictions are also very tight. Blown diffusers are gone. Tires are the same. Even if car A is faster than car B, tires will not always let the car A run away. Now you have cars like Lotus, Sauber, and Williams breathing down the neck of leading teams and waiting for them to make one little mistake. I thought KERS will be the system that will separate the affluent and technically sophisticated teams from others, but so far it seems like KERS hasn't been the great divider I thought it will be. If the rules and tires don't change much for 2013, then I think we will see a repeat of 2012 in many ways. However, 2014 could be a game changer.

DexDexter

27th June 2012, 11:00

Why is that? What is going to change in 2013 for example that others are going to cope better than Williams?

The top teams with more money and resources will understand the tires better, for example. Williams have less money and talent than Red Bull, it will show under normal circumstances. You can already see it: in Valencia Red Bull was suddenly well clear of everybody else in quali and the race.

jens

27th June 2012, 16:39

If the rules and tires don't change much for 2013, then I think we will see a repeat of 2012 in many ways.

Who knows, every season is unique in its own way. After 2011 and big gaps between teams one wouldn't have expected such a close 2012. Especially without major rule changes. And if someone mentions EBD, then well, some team may easily find a major innovational advantage for 2013 and we would see a repeat of 2011 again. :)

GravettFan99

27th June 2012, 19:25

Who knows, every season is unique in its own way. After 2011 and big gaps between teams one wouldn't have expected such a close 2012. Especially without major rule changes. And if someone mentions EBD, then well, some team may easily find a major innovational advantage for 2013 and we would see a repeat of 2011 again. :)

I think Williams has a pretty solid line-up, besides, there are 12 races left for this year, and alot can happen in the long time duration. These two are proving more than the very experienced Felipe Massa ( ;( )is at the moment, however.

aryan

28th June 2012, 06:46

The top teams with more money and resources will understand the tires better, for example. Williams have less money and talent than Red Bull

And why didn't they understand the 2012 tyres better? And who says that Pirelli will not change the tyres again in 2013?

As for money and talent, sure RedBull has the former in abundance (and a lot of the latter as well), but I still think Williams can compete with any team when it comes to talent. They've got racing DNA in their blood, finding talented engineers won't be problem for them.

DexDexter

28th June 2012, 08:51

And why didn't they understand the 2012 tyres better? And who says that Pirelli will not change the tyres again in 2013?

As for money and talent, sure RedBull has the former in abundance (and a lot of the latter as well), but I still think Williams can compete with any team when it comes to talent. They've got racing DNA in their blood, finding talented engineers won't be problem for them.

But it has for the last 10 years. Success in F1 is quite simple actually: First you need the money, then you need to hire the right people, the best drivers and then it may/ may not work for you. I wish Williams the best but IMO they will not be able to compete with the likes of Ferraris and Red Bulls in the long run if they have less money and drivers with budgets and questionable credentials.

Malbec

29th June 2012, 09:49

As for money and talent, sure RedBull has the former in abundance (and a lot of the latter as well), but I still think Williams can compete with any team when it comes to talent. They've got racing DNA in their blood, finding talented engineers won't be problem for them.

If you're a talented engineer why would you want to work for Williams on their limited budget? Within half an hours drive you could be working at Lotus, Mercedes or RBR with a higher budget and fewer limitations on what projects you could work on, not to mention the competitive instincts being satisfied by more race wins and points.

People overrate the history of teams as a marker for future performance or seem to believe this stuff about 'racing DNA'. Lotus (Mk 1) had plenty of racing DNA and history, they disappeared off the face of the earth 20 years ago. Ditto teams like Lancia, Alfa Romeo, BRM, Vanwall, Cooper and Brabham.

I think Williams have done very well this year especially of course at Barcelona, but they are struggling to beat FI and Sauber in points which is not much better than last year which IIRC was their worst year in history. Unfortunately they don't look as if they'll be returning to their previous glorydays.

SGWilko

29th June 2012, 10:04

If you're a talented engineer why would you want to work for Williams on their limited budget? Within half an hours drive you could be working at Lotus, Mercedes or RBR with a higher budget and fewer limitations on what projects you could work on, not to mention the competitive instincts being satisfied by more race wins and points.

People overrate the history of teams as a marker for future performance or seem to believe this stuff about 'racing DNA'. Lotus (Mk 1) had plenty of racing DNA and history, they disappeared off the face of the earth 20 years ago. Ditto teams like Lancia, Alfa Romeo, BRM, Vanwall, Cooper and Brabham.

I think Williams have done very well this year especially of course at Barcelona, but they are struggling to beat FI and Sauber in points which is not much better than last year which IIRC was their worst year in history. Unfortunately they don't look as if they'll be returning to their previous glorydays.

Given their non F1 related engineering projects, I'd hazard a guess that for many engineers, a job for Williams is a good career move with a chance to innovate and realise your own ideas.

Malbec

29th June 2012, 11:02

Given their non F1 related engineering projects, I'd hazard a guess that for many engineers, a job for Williams is a good career move with a chance to innovate and realise your own ideas.

Exactly, you're talking about non-F1 related projects which attract a slightly different kind of person to the motorsports side. Even then McLaren has a larger non-F1 related engineering aspect to it.

If you want to be involved in F1 projects then the teams with the bigger budgets have got more things going on at any one time. Williams sadly isn't one of them.

Mark

30th June 2012, 20:20

He has won them a race. Something which they really missed. They are not gonna fire him.

Exactly. That race will is already worth more than all of last years points on it's own.

ArrowsFA1

1st July 2012, 08:23

If you're a talented engineer why would you want to work for Williams on their limited budget?
Perhaps you should ask that question of Ross Brawn who joined the Williams team in 1978 when they had a limited budget and were only just emerging from the "****er Williams" days on a limited budget.

Malbec

2nd July 2012, 12:33

Perhaps you should ask that question of Ross Brawn who joined the Williams team in 1978 when they had a limited budget and were only just emerging from the "****er Williams" days on a limited budget.

You're talking about a bygone era and referring to an engineer who in those days was unknown and untried.

These days F1 engineers are recruited on the basis of their CVs or on recommendations, its a much more formal process.

If you had a top CV and were looking for a good engineering career in an F1 team would you honestly put Williams over McLaren or RBR? The decision I suspect would not be that different from that of a top driver. Williams employs two paydrivers, what does that say.

ShiftingGears

2nd July 2012, 13:13

I wonder what the influence of Parr leaving Williams will be, a year or two in the future. They were certainly very keen to acknowledge his contribution to their win in Spain.

ArrowsFA1

2nd July 2012, 14:57

If you had a top CV and were looking for a good engineering career in an F1 team would you honestly put Williams over McLaren or RBR?
That would depend on who made you an offer. As a talented engineer looking for a good engineering career in an F1 team you'd be fortunate indeed to get a job in a top team straight away, top CV or not, and a job at Williams would be an excellent start. More likely you'd be looking at HRT :)

Bagwan

2nd July 2012, 16:54

Anyone can understand the draw of a top team to any good engineer or designer , but is there any allure to a team as good as Williams have been in the past , to bring the glory back ?

In fact , having had such a dismal season last year , Williams may be prime for attracting the ego that has designs on restoring the glory .
Everyone loves a Cinderella story , and if you can get even close to the same money , the underdog might win .

Malbec

4th July 2012, 13:25

That would depend on who made you an offer. As a talented engineer looking for a good engineering career in an F1 team you'd be fortunate indeed to get a job in a top team straight away, top CV or not, and a job at Williams would be an excellent start. More likely you'd be looking at HRT :)

Well, HRT wouldn't be recruiting at all...

McLaren for one does recruit engineers with no prior F1experience as a friend of mine can attest. Ferrari recruits its engineers using the old MI5/6 method with university professors suggesting and approaching candidates they think will perform well and proposing them to the team. I don't think your assertion is true therefore. Plenty of top teams scour universities for candidates who have appropriate skills performing relevant research.

Knock-on

4th July 2012, 20:19

McLaren have an excellent track record of promoting youth in Surrey.

As for Williams, Parr has been recruiting some very talented people over the last couple of years and it's a great shame he's not there to fully benefit from the success of he's work.

Garry Walker

5th July 2012, 18:15

The problem for Williams is that this year is probably the only year they'll have a car that can win races. Sooner or later the status quo will return and Williams may look back and realize that the team's drivers wasted a golden opportunity to finish high in the constructor's championship and earn a lot of dough for the team and safeguard its future.

What is the difference between finishing 4th or 7th? Probably less than Maldonado brings in a year. You won't safeguard your future with one year of finishing 4th in the WCC.

Ranger

8th July 2012, 14:55

Maldonado's pace was once again good, much better than Senna's.

But the accident was entirely predictable.

jens

8th July 2012, 15:06

steveaki13

8th July 2012, 15:24

Modern day Takuma Sato? Sato was fast and reasonably talented, but destroyed his career by crashing in most of the races in 2005.

Bruno is the Steady Eddie. He rarely makes a mistake and usually collects a point or two, but you know that the car is capable of so much more...

Spot on Jens. I said the very same thing to my father who was watching with me today.

Of course he had no idea who I was talking about.

The worst one was Taku's massive lunge at Barrichello while hunting 2nd at Nurburgring in???? 2004. I suppose. Such a waste of a brilliant result. Very much like Pastor last race in Valencia.

Ranger

8th July 2012, 15:28

Modern day Takuma Sato? Sato was fast and reasonably talented, but destroyed his career by crashing in most of the races in 2005.

Bruno is the Steady Eddie. He rarely makes a mistake and usually collects a point or two, but you know that the car is capable of so much more...

I was thinking about the likeness to Sato earlier today actually.

Pastor has the speed but needs to avoid the constant avoidable accidents. Williams would have much more FOM money in addition to PDVSA's sponsorship cash, and that would help secure their mid-term future, much more than writing off decent points in every race.

On current form I don't think Senna should make the end of the season.

ArrowsFA1

8th July 2012, 16:17

Other than Maldonado's 25pts for Spain he only has one other top ten finish, compared with Senna's five. Obviously a win is a win, and that was a superb drive, but Pastor's errors are costly for both driver and team.

That said, Bruno wrecked a car at Silverstone so he's not immune from errors.

steveaki13

8th July 2012, 19:23

I would be seriously be considering replacing both drivers for next season unless of course Senna cuts out the errors. He can be very fast and I like him as a character, but I can't help but feel time is running out for him. I don't feel Pastors race win should be any safety net as he is unreliable and too aggressive with other drivers for my liking. You get the impression he would rather crash out and take others out with him than concede a position and use his head. Webber, Hamilton and Alonso showed you can overtake into Brooklands without outbreaking themselves, and I think Pastor needs to take note. His reputation is growing and not in a positive way amongst the other drivers and its vital you have your opponents respect if you want favours or fair etiquette in the future.

I agree. Maldonado's win was a great win and will stay in minds and history forever, but ultimately his performances have been full of incidents and have been far too erratic.

If not for Maldonado's win and how poor Williams were doing last year. You may argue Senna has been doing a decent job.

However if Williams want to continue their rivival(Which this season has been). Then both are likely to be replaced.

By whom though is a different matter. I think an experience and youth line up is good. So maybe Bottas after his decent showings on Fridays. Then a driver with a pedigree. However I can't see a Webber, Hamilton or Alonso type driver who would go there if he is out of a drive next year.

Maybe Button if Mclaren sack him. ;)

foxystoat

8th July 2012, 20:55

christophulus

8th July 2012, 20:59

I think Bottas (third driver) will almost certainly be driving one of the cars next year, and I assume that will be at the expense of Senna. Maldonado's future is linked strongly to PDVSA, and whether or not the money keeps flowing. If the money is lost then there's no way they're going to keep him, but if they keep funding the team then what choice do they have?

steveaki13

8th July 2012, 20:59

I think this Williams is a very fast car and if they had one top line driver like an Alonso/Vettel/Hamilton or even a Raikkonnen then it would be regularly on the podium if not winning. The fact someone as average as Maldanado has won in it and often runs near the front is testament to the cars pace I just hope they can tempt a decent driver into it again . Maybe worth even dumping Senna and putting Kovalinnen or Glock in as I'm sure they would be far faster than what they have until they can get a top line driver in.

Good shout about Kovalainen or Glock. Its easy to forget them when searching for a decent spare driver. Glock done well at Toyota and it would be good to see him get a chance in a decent car again. Kovalainen did OK at Renault and then he was solid at Mclaren and won a race. So these are the type of drivers Williams will need to look at. As a top top driver will not be availiable for them

Garry Walker

9th July 2012, 19:47

Modern day Takuma Sato? Sato was fast and reasonably talented, but destroyed his career by crashing in most of the races in 2005.Sato was fun to watch, but he never was that fast. Button destroyed him. Maldonado on the other hand is so much faster than Senna that it is not even funny anymore.

I would be seriously be considering replacing both drivers for next season unless of course Senna cuts out the errors. He can be very fast and I like him as a character, but I can't help but feel time is running out for him. I don't feel Pastors race win should be any safety net as he is unreliable and too aggressive with other drivers for my liking. You get the impression he would rather crash out and take others out with him than concede a position and use his head. Webber, Hamilton and Alonso showed you can overtake into Brooklands without outbreaking themselves, and I think Pastor needs to take note. His reputation is growing and not in a positive way amongst the other drivers and its vital you have your opponents respect if you want favours or fair etiquette in the future.

Because of how much other drivers seem to hate Pastor, I seem to be getting more and more fond of him.

steveaki13

9th July 2012, 20:26

[quote="Garry Walker"]Sato was fun to watch, but he never was that fast. Button destroyed him. Maldonado on the other hand is so much faster than Senna that it is not even funny anymore.

[quote]

People used to moan about Taku, but as you say he was spectacular. He wasn't afraid to have a go, a bit like Kobayashi today.

You have to love a driver who isn't afraid to chuck it up the inside, to try and pass

Garry Walker

9th July 2012, 20:30

People used to moan about Taku, but as you say he was spectacular. He wasn't afraid to have a go, a bit like Kobayashi today.

You have to love a driver who isn't afraid to chuck it up the inside, to try and passAbsolutely. I liked him. I also like Pastor and Kamui.

jens

9th July 2012, 21:00

IMO it is unfair to compare Kobayashi to either Sato or Maldonado. Kamui is a much cleaner racer and usually doesn't have more than a couple of collisions per season.

steveaki13

9th July 2012, 21:10

IMO it is unfair to compare Kobayashi to either Sato or Maldonado. Kamui is a much cleaner racer and usually doesn't have more than a couple of collisions per season.

Wasn't comparing the results of there efforts. As Kobayashi as you say is much better than Sato.

I was comparing their similarity in terms of agression and willingness to battle and have a go. They both do that, but Kamui's judgement is better than Takumas so slightly less incidents.

Personally I loved them both. Remember last years Japanese race, while others struggled. Kamui just charged and with and without contact at times, overtook 6 or 7 cars. Brilliant, that is why I would love to see him in a really top car.

rjbetty

10th July 2012, 07:38

I don't know if this has already been said, but I wonder how Adrian Sutil would have got on in a frontrunning Williams this year...

My guess is he would have the pace of Maldonado and the racecraft of Senna.

He seemed a shoe-in for the seat occupied by Senna. Guess it shows to show people in houses shouldn't throw glass's. That incident has really cost him.

Also, I don't think Senna is doing THAT badly, but it is that Pastor is doing well. After all he was quicker than Rubens last year, when one year earlier Rubens beat Hulkenberg. It is disappointing and a concern that Bruno doesn't seem to show that much POTENTIAL.

As for Sato, I was not impressed by him. Apart from his move on Alonso in Canada 2007 I honestly can't remember a move of his that came off properly. He was always lauded for "having a go" but I think it was much more of a case of being totally reckless and out of control, and downright stupid and dangerous.

I was put off him in his 2nd race when he crashed into his own team-mate, who is also my favourite driver Fisichella, when Fisi was on course for at least a point. He also came within a whisker of wiping Giancarlo out in Monaco when Fisi was on another strong drive. With the lost points for Fisichella and all the damage from his own smashes, at that perilous financial time for Jordan, I actually hold Sato largely responsible for the demise of Jordan.

Malbec

10th July 2012, 19:10

As for Sato, I was not impressed by him. Apart from his move on Alonso in Canada 2007 I honestly can't remember a move of his that came off properly. He was always lauded for "having a go" but I think it was much more of a case of being totally reckless and out of control, and downright stupid and dangerous.

I was put off him in his 2nd race when he crashed into his own team-mate, who is also my favourite driver Fisichella, when Fisi was on course for at least a point. He also came within a whisker of wiping Giancarlo out in Monaco when Fisi was on another strong drive. With the lost points for Fisichella and all the damage from his own smashes, at that perilous financial time for Jordan, I actually hold Sato largely responsible for the demise of Jordan.

I generally agree with you about Sato but regarding Monaco, the team took responsibility for the accident because they told him to let Fisi by through the tunnel... He did so, went onto the marbles and lost control.

As for the demise of Jordan I don't think Sato had anything to do with it. You have to look at Eddie Jordan's moves to take as much value out of the team and into his bank account as well as losing Gascoyne and several key engineers (at about the same time) and failing to replace them with capable engineers.

Also the team could have been saved if Honda had bought into it but Eddie Jordan didn't like the terms and sealed his team's fate. Honda decided to jump into bed properly with BAR instead.

rjbetty

10th July 2012, 19:37

Oh that's news to me. I never realised that. Thanks. :)

Malbec

10th July 2012, 19:53

Modern day Takuma Sato? Sato was fast and reasonably talented, but destroyed his career by crashing in most of the races in 2005.

Sato wasn't exceptionally quick though. The only races I recall where he put one over on Jenson were in 2004, Nurburgring where he pulled a ridiculous move on Rubens and crashed out and Indy where he was genuinely excellent. Otherwise he was thoroughly outpaced.

Maldonaldo IMO is quick, there is no doubt about that. He was generally as quick or quicker than Rubens last year who had just outpaced Jenson in the latter half of 2009. He seems to have a serious attitude problem though and a willingness to actively cause collisions through a loss of temper.

He may well be the first proper playstation driver to reach F1, very quick but hasn't quite grasped that his actions have real physical consequences. It may be that going through a serious accident might calm him down a little and make him into a better driver. Otherwise he is a danger both to himself and others.