Hamilton's Driving

[fandango]

I realize this is going to be hotly discussed, but surely Hamilton deserves some kind of real sanction for the way he treats other drivers.

He tried to overtake Vettel coming out of the pits in the pitlane. In the press conference he puts on his best "who me?" innocent face when asked about it, and tries some kind of "I didn't really know he was there" excuse.

He bumped Webber off before the re-start after the safety car.

And, he was given a warning for weaving in the last race. So if someone is given a warning and they continue to do what they're doing, they should be punished, right?

[Dave B]

He tried to overtake Vettel coming out of the pits in the pitlane. In the press conference he puts on his best "who me?" innocent face when asked about it, and tries some kind of "I didn't really know he was there" excuse.

Not really. I was blaming him too, but the replay clearly shows that he got released mere tenths after Vettel but got a shocking getaway, putting them side by side. With their tyres interlocking there was no way he could brake and get out of it. Vettel then attemped to push him into the mechanics' slow lane, Seb's wheels were almost over the white line at one point. It was a clumsy incident, but if anything it's Vettel who behaved worse.


He bumped Webber off before the re-start after the safety car.
He slid. Unfortunate, but a racing incident and little more.

The only thing he did do wrong was the charade of temporarily "forgetting" the pitlane duel during thre press conference. That's the sort of thing which really doesn't endear him to anybody and makes a mockery of his apology after Australia last year.

[Zico]

As above really..

[TMorel]

I didnt get the impression that he "forgot" but rather he is so agressive normally that he wouldnt have considered it an issue.
Infact I got the feeling that he thought they were on about his second stop at first the way he started to talk about being held and then picked up on what they were discussing.

[Daniel]

As Dave said, if anything Vettel's actions were worse.

[Robinho]

pitlane thing was not Lewis' fault. if there is any fault its the team for the realease, but they were released at virtually the same time and Vettel wasn't in the "lane" yet. once side by side, from the overhead camera it was clear there was more than enough room for 2 cars, Vettel chose not to give Lewis any of that room, and he was slightly ahead.

i think they both might get a talking to, probably nothing more.

as for the restart and webber incident, we only got one dodgy replay. it loked like Vettel, Hamilton and Webber all tried to get into the same piece of track and that was never going to work. Apparently they were allowed to be racing at that point after the safety car, so possibly racing incident, but Lewis does keep getting involved in these incidents. that said, so does Webber.

Lewis was incredibly quick in all conditions and made some great passing moves

[TMorel]

oooh Brundle just said the same as me... means I'm awesome and should replace Legard

[SkyTom]

He has been a huge factor of making 2010 an entertaining season so far.

[Ari]

I realize this is going to be hotly discussed, but surely Hamilton deserves some kind of real sanction for the way he treats other drivers.

He tried to overtake Vettel coming out of the pits in the pitlane. In the press conference he puts on his best "who me?" innocent face when asked about it, and tries some kind of "I didn't really know he was there" excuse.

He bumped Webber off before the re-start after the safety car.

And, he was given a warning for weaving in the last race. So if someone is given a warning and they continue to do what they're doing, they should be punished, right?

Not if you're Hamilton!

That bump shot Webbers race.

When Webber did that last year he got a drive through in Germany.

Justice much?

Hamilton is a fantastic driver but a rank human being. He smiles a lot.... a good sign of someone not to trust.

[ShiftingGears]

Who? Me? What pitlane incident?

I am glad Button is beating him in the drivers championship. Lewis acts like a tool.

Having said that, Vettel was more at fault. Squeezing Hamilton made it all the more dangerous. If Lewis ran over a wheel gun and it went flying it could've ended nastily.

[Ari]

pitlane thing was not Lewis' fault. if there is any fault its the team for the realease, but they were released at virtually the same time and Vettel wasn't in the "lane" yet. once side by side, from the overhead camera it was clear there was more than enough room for 2 cars, Vettel chose not to give Lewis any of that room, and he was slightly ahead.

i think they both might get a talking to, probably nothing more.

as for the restart and webber incident, we only got one dodgy replay. it loked like Vettel, Hamilton and Webber all tried to get into the same piece of track and that was never going to work. Apparently they were allowed to be racing at that point after the safety car, so possibly racing incident, but Lewis does keep getting involved in these incidents. that said, so does Webber.

Lewis was incredibly quick in all conditions and made some great passing moves

If Webber is ahead how the hell does he get shunted off the track by Vettel/Hamilton before the restart?

Absurd that it could be IN THE RULES imo.....

[Mp3 Astra]

Hamilton pushing Webber off was partially to do with Vettel being very much up the inside of Hamilton in that final corner. Lewis could have turned in and hit Vettel or run out wide and squeezed Webber.

As for the pitlane incident, again, Vettel was extremely rude by squeezing Hamilton onto the blue line, very close to running over airlines, jacks and mechanics. That said, Hamilton should have also backed off. But nobody ever backs off in that situation (apart from Badoer at Valencia last year).

[fandango]

I think Vettel moving over to block Hamilton in the pitlane was instinctive. He shouldn't have done it, but Hamilton should not have been challenging him. Maybe it's the team's fault for having let him out. Vettel was in front, so Hamilton should have backed off for two good reasons.

1. They're in the pitlane, and they could injure or kill mechanics with a stunt.

2. Hamilton was already given a warning in the last race.

I think he's a fantastic driver, but he's getting involved in too many incidents. And it's only when everyone is angry with him that he relents and says sorry. I question his sincerity.

[steveaki13]

Not sure but

Is the reason so many cars were battling into the final turn is because you can now start passing and racing after the Safety Car Line? Which I think I saw just before the last turn.
If that was the case it is strange to put the line right before the last corner and invite drivers to crash after SC and into the last corner.
The line should be after the last corner onto the straight or just the same as in the past when it was the start / finish line.

[fandango]

What I would like to see is for Hamilton to get a one-race suspended ban.

[Robinho]

If Webber is ahead how the hell does he get shunted off the track by Vettel/Hamilton before the restart?

Absurd that it could be IN THE RULES imo.....

apprently the restart point (last safety car board) was before the last corner so they were allowed to be racing by that point.

i agree that if they punted him off it might still be worth of investigation at the least, but the right to be side by side in that corner is theirs, from what i heard in the race commentary

[UltimateDanGTR]

what robinho and dave said, basically on the pitlane incident. trying to deny knowlegde of what the interviewer meant was very stupid though, he's still got a lot to learn.

as for the second incident, I would like to see it again as 1 replay is all we got, but it seemed like a racing incident where Lewis and Vettel were too busy fighting each other and lewis just got into webber inadvertantly. It was a crazy restart IMO.

The pit lane is not part of the race track.

A ban would be reasonable.

[fandango]

I thought they couldn't start racing again until they crossed the start/finish line. If they were already racing again officially then I take back what I said and it was just a racing incident.

I still think Hamilton has a problem with respecting thee rules and his fellow drivers, though.

[steveaki13]

I thought they couldn't start racing again until they crossed the start/finish line. If they were already racing again officially then I take back what I said and it was just a racing incident.

I still think Hamilton has a problem with respecting thee rules and his fellow drivers, though.

If the last SC line was the one just before the last corner. Thats a silly place to put it, as it asks for drivers to launch into the corner.

It should still be the start/finish line IMO.

[Sonic]

Fandango; Normally I'd be with you 100% - Lewis is a spoilt brat who often takes his desire to win too far, both on and off the track.

However today he has been the victim. The pit lane release (even in slow motion) was split seconds apart and as has already been pointed out, Seb moved into him Vettel was also involved at the last turn, trying to get under him. 3 into 1 doesn't fit and Mark came off worse. The fault there lies with the organisers choice to place the green flag line there.

If anything I would say the Button/SC moment is more worthy of interest to the stewards. its F1, Not Formula Ford - in fact I recall a similar incident at Oulton and it may well have been Jenson leading the pack then as well - I'll double check that before I start pointing fingers.

[SGWilko]

The pit lane is not part of the race track.

A ban would be reasonable.

Amen - Vettel deliberately turning into him and pushing him into the pitlane was unforgiveable.

Same for Fred.

[rohanweb]

still Vettel got away infront of Lewis exiting pits, it was tenth of seconds timing of release of both drivers, we have seen far worse issues of similar kind before.. so whats the problem ??
a lot of people tend to think Button / Vettel ahead of Hamilton, but I will eat my hat of Hamilton not going to finish ahead of either these guys by end of the season..

[ShiftingGears]

Anyone with a video link? The Alonso-Massa incident in question was in the middle of an ad break, hence, wasn't shown.

[rohanweb]

Anyone with a video link? The Alonso-Massa incident in question was in the middle of an ad break, hence, wasn't shown.

why the hell you want to repeat Massa's regular driving on grass.. utter rubbish wet-racing from him, very disapointed.

[ShiftingGears]

why the hell you want to repeat Massa's regular driving on grass..

What you're saying does not make sense.

A reprimand? What a joke.

[fandango]

Fandango; Normally I'd be with you 100% - Lewis is a spoilt brat who often takes his desire to win too far, both on and off the track.

However today he has been the victim. The pit lane release (even in slow motion) was split seconds apart and as has already been pointed out, Seb moved into him .........

Yes, Vettel moved across to block Hamilton. But Vettel didn't cross the white line, did he? Vettel stayed driving within the area set out for cars to drive down the pit lane. Hamilton came out sideways from his pit and then proceeded to challenge as they went down the pitlane. But Vettel was ahead, and Hamilton was warned about his tactics in the last race. Do warnings not count for anything?

The reason I started this in a separate thread is precisely because Hamilton's win at all costs tactics are becoming an issue from one race to the next. If a driver gets a warning at one race, and then acts like this in the next race, surely some kind of suspended sanction is necessary? I'll be amazed if he doesn't get something from the stewards, and then it'll only be a matter of time before he's at it again.

[ShiftingGears]

A reprimand? What a joke.

I am guessing that it was based on the following reasons -

Once Hamilton was alongside Vettel (which he ideally shouldn'tve been, but it can happen) the space between them was that small, especially after Vettel moved over, that if Hamilton backed off they might've interlocked wheels, which would've been very dangerous. It was a deadlock, as far as the drivers were concerned.

[F1boat]

A reprimand? What a joke.

I am very happy that there are no penalties. Once again the new FIA under Todt shows that it does not want to mess with the race results. That's what I hoped to see from Jean!

[donKey jote]

Same for Fred.

funny that... you didn´t see Lewis chop in front of Vettel at the pitlane entrance either did you? :p

Fred and Lewis or neither... although Lewis does have a yellow card already ;)

[jens]

To me the pitlane incident simply seemed like a racing incident due to 'unfortunate' coincidences. Neither driver had much to do and both teams were in situation to release their driver rightfully in that exact moment.

[TL]

All I can say is I loooove this season so far...lots of action...and I also love the way FIA is dealing with it in 2010..Not like last year where drivers where treated like kids and almost every single overtaking manoeuvre/race incident ended up with some kinda penalty for this or that competitor/team !

[CNR]

I thought they couldn't start racing again until they crossed the start/finish line. If they were already racing again officially then I take back what I said and it was just a racing incident.

I still think Hamilton has a problem with respecting thee rules and his fellow drivers, though.

the yellow flag rules apply while the safety car is out
YellowC and Tag board «SC»

The safety car is deployed on the track. Drivers must slow down, not overtake and be prepared to leave the normal racing line or even stop as a threat obstructs all or part of the track.

[Bobby_Hamlin]

Clearly people with a Hamilton agenda are calling for ridiculous bans, suspended or otherwise. I wouldn't expect it any other way.

I echo the point that it's good to see a better approach to penalties across the board this year and so any comparison to some of the inconsistent and over-zealous decisions of the last few years are irrelevant.

As for the restart incident, the rules have changed this year and you don't have to wait until the start finish line to overtake and it would appear the particular restart line at this race was before the final corner.

[F1boat]

All I can say is I loooove this season so far...lots of action...and I also love the way FIA is dealing with it in 2010..Not like last year where drivers where treated like kids and almost every single overtaking manoeuvre/race incident ended up with some kinda penalty for this or that competitor/team !

I agree!

[fandango]

Clearly people with a Hamilton agenda are calling for ridiculous bans, suspended or otherwise. I wouldn't expect it any other way.

I echo the point that it's good to see a better approach to penalties across the board this year and so any comparison to some of the inconsistent and over-zealous decisions of the last few years are irrelevant.

As for the restart incident, the rules have changed this year and you don't have to wait until the start finish line to overtake and it would appear the particular restart line at this race was before the final corner.

I don't know if I have a Hamilton agenda. I didn't like Senna or Schumacher in the past because of their attitudes to fellow competitors. I don't like Hamilton's "I'm really such a lovely guy" PR image, and I don't like the way he seems to be able to justify to himself his less-than-fair behaviour towards fellow drivers.

But sport is like that. There are always the goodies and the baddies, and it always depends on your own perspective.

What I find amazing is how a driver can get a warning in one race, and then in the following race continue as if nothing had happened, and get away with it. So this time it's a reprimand. What does that really mean? Does Hamilton have any reason at all to change his attitude?

[SGWilko]

A reprimand? What a joke.

Don't just tell us the punchline.........

And if you mean they let Vettel off, then that sucks more than your average Dyson.

[SGWilko]

funny that... you didn´t see Lewis chop in front of Vettel at the pitlane entrance either did you? :p

Fred and Lewis or neither... although Lewis does have a yellow card already ;)

I did. Did he drive off the circuit like wot Fred did to get in front while behind, or did he just take the hairpin leaving Vettel to follow....?

Don't just tell us the punchline.........

And if you mean they let Vettel off, then that sucks more than your average Dyson.

Hamilton and his apologistas are the joke, but will you be laughing when he puts a mechanic in a wheelchair?

[SGWilko]

Hamilton and his apologistas are the joke, but will you be laughing when he puts a mechanic in a wheelchair?

I make no apologies for anyone. Just bear in mind that;

Vettel turned his car to deliberately push the McLaren into the pitlane, if an acident had resulted, I suggest a majority of the blame will be on the German,

and


Stewards saw blame o both sides, Vettel for drifting, Lewis for not slotting in behind.

Stop being a drama queen. I assume you forget cars would drive through packed pits at full tilt not so long ago......

[Azumanga Davo]

Funny when Button was a victim before in a restart incident, he causes one himself. Hope he has a rethink if he tries it again. He of all people should know better that's just not on.

[Saint Devote]

Hamilton has the "red mist" and cannot help himself.

We just have to hope that the leniency shown by the FIA does not land up with another driver - or team personnel - bearing the brunt one day.

I know from my days in the military that strong disciplinary action as a commander on a soldier with high potential actually channels him into becoming an extremely valuable asset.

I think Lewis does not understand how to apply that aggression.

Hamilton needs a team manager like the late Ken Tyrrell.

And from the past we are all aware that Lewis can be "economical" with the truth. Pity that, but then none of us are saints either - well the IS ONE exception :-]

Vettel turned his car to deliberately push the McLaren into the pitlane, if an acident had resulted, I suggest a majority of the blame will be on the German

Well, we know you would blame the German.

[SGWilko]

Well, we know you would blame the German.

Yup, well done. He was doing his best to make the cars touch....

[Brown, Jon Brow]

A load of fuss over nothing. It's about time the FIA stopped handing out penalties 'willy-nilly' over small events.

Yup, well done. He was doing his best to make the cars touch....

Of course, for your sort it's just easier to blame nasty Johnny Foreigner than admit fault.

[Mia 01]

Lewis is building up to a heavy penalty, it´s only a matter of little time now.

[steveaki13]

Not commenting on the incidents themselves, but people always say we have way more penalties now. I assume that is true I can't remember anywhere near as many going back to the mid 90's as within the last 5 years.

My question is are people who follow F1 loyally like myself happy to see more penalties if they are justified or were they happier when maybe these incidents went unseen or unpunished?

[truefan72]

In a race where Button nearly causes a wreck at restart ( and according to the regs was in violation), a race where Alonso pushes his own teammate off the road entering pit lane, a race where MSC displayed many off his bad defensive traits, the author of this thread chooses to focus on Hamilton???

[Daniel]

In a race where Button nearly causes a wreck at restart ( and according to the regs was in violation), a race where Alonso pushes his own teammate off the road entering pit lane, a race where MSC displayed many off his bad defensive traits, the author of this thread chooses to focus on Hamilton???
You seem to have forgotten the rule which someone mentioned in another thread which says that Button can do what he wants and almost cause pileups but if two drivers get released at the same time and one gets more wheelspin than the other which results in them essentially going for the same bit of tarmac then he's evil! Evil I tell you!

Personally I didn't think anything Schumacher did was wrong though, he was tough but fair. He put his car where the others wanted to put their car or squeezed the other drivers gently enough that they had time to react.

What Alonso did was amazingly bad though.

[Robinho]

nothing like paraphrasing several peoples opinions into one concise opinion is there?!

Button didn't do anything wrong, so the stewards, drivers and teams seem to think.

Hamilton did very little wrong, probably he and Vettel could have handled it better, but even a reprimand was a bit steep.

Schmacher did nothing wrong, his fight with Hamilton (and others) were hard, clean and from what i saw, very fair.

Alonso, don't really see the issue with what he did either. the kerb on the inside of the corner into the pitlane i would assume delineates the circuit and as far as i'm aware the drivers are free to race to the speed line. Massa stated he stuffed up the exit to the hairpin and alonso was alongside as they entered the start of the pitlane, as far he was concerned there was no issue.

i can't see anything that happened that is worthy of the level of witch huntery engaged on here this week, let alone 3 or 4 incidents.

fortunately the setwards seem to have had a few sensible pills recently and are looking at things with a degree of realism, which makes a nice change

[Daniel]

Hmmmm.
Lewis Hamilton, the most popular driver in Formula One. :up:

You have to admit that he's done some stupid things though.

I'm not a fan of letting people off just because of previous good behaviour though. Jenson knew exactly what he was doing by backing off the field excessively and knew full well what it could cause an accident and IMHO if Mothere Theresa had done that I'd have wanted her to be penalised.

[COD]

I am glad Button is beating him in the drivers championship. Lewis acts like a tool.

Having said that, Vettel was more at fault. Squeezing Hamilton made it all the more dangerous. If Lewis ran over a wheel gun and it went flying it could've ended nastily.

What race were you watching???

Hamilton made a crazy move, didn't respect white lines on entry to pitlane. Then made a crazy getaway from pitbox, sliding like hell, thus dangering picrews on several teams. Vettels slide was far less sideways.

[Daniel]

nothing like paraphrasing several peoples opinions into one concise opinion is there?!

Button didn't do anything wrong, so the stewards, drivers and teams seem to think.

Hamilton did very little wrong, probably he and Vettel could have handled it better, but even a reprimand was a bit steep.

Schmacher did nothing wrong, his fight with Hamilton (and others) were hard, clean and from what i saw, very fair.

Alonso, don't really see the issue with what he did either. the kerb on the inside of the corner into the pitlane i would assume delineates the circuit and as far as i'm aware the drivers are free to race to the speed line. Massa stated he stuffed up the exit to the hairpin and alonso was alongside as they entered the start of the pitlane, as far he was concerned there was no issue.

i can't see anything that happened that is worthy of the level of witch huntery engaged on here this week, let alone 3 or 4 incidents.

fortunately the setwards seem to have had a few sensible pills recently and are looking at things with a degree of realism, which makes a nice change

I think you need to retune your freeview box in or something. Alonso nearly took his team mate out ON THE PIT ENTRY. That's amateur hour and not the way it should be. What if they'd tangled? What of the drivers who couldn't get into the pits? :confused:

Now I'm all for allowing a little leeway but what we saw today was amateur hour. We saw a driver back the field up to the point where we almost saw a comedy pileup which would be popular on youtube for years to come and we saw Alsono almost rip felipe's front off on the pit entry.

What we saw today wasn't professional racing, it was crap, utter amateur rubbish and drivers should be penalised for such foolish behaviour. We see the FIA warn Hamilton for gently weaving to break Petrov's tow but no warnings or penalties for this, it's hilariously bad.

[Sonic]

Of course, for your sort it's just easier to blame nasty Johnny Foreigner than admit fault.

:rolleyes:

So why is my fave driver a German-ish? Lewis is a pr@t but today didn't do anything wrong (well at least not alone).

[Daniel]

:rolleyes:

So why is my fave driver a German-ish? Lewis is a pr@t but today didn't do anything wrong (well at least not alone).
A year or more ago I'd have agreed with you but I think Lewis has matured after his difficult year in 2009. I don't think his first 2 years of being at the top straight away did him any good in terms of his attitude but I think he's a more mature driver these days.

[Wasted Talent]

nothing like paraphrasing several peoples opinions into one concise opinion is there?!

Button didn't do anything wrong, so the stewards, drivers and teams seem to think.

Hamilton did very little wrong, probably he and Vettel could have handled it better, but even a reprimand was a bit steep.

Schmacher did nothing wrong, his fight with Hamilton (and others) were hard, clean and from what i saw, very fair.

Alonso, don't really see the issue with what he did either. the kerb on the inside of the corner into the pitlane i would assume delineates the circuit and as far as i'm aware the drivers are free to race to the speed line. Massa stated he stuffed up the exit to the hairpin and alonso was alongside as they entered the start of the pitlane, as far he was concerned there was no issue.

i can't see anything that happened that is worthy of the level of witch huntery engaged on here this week, let alone 3 or 4 incidents.

fortunately the setwards seem to have had a few sensible pills recently and are looking at things with a degree of realism, which makes a nice change

Just about sums it up Robbie.

I think Vettel and Hamilton were very near the edge of what is allowed - Vettel did move across and Hamilton should have lifted slightly. I disagreed with his comment that they "were racing", yes they were but they were in the pitlane. Overall though I don't think either Vettel or Hamilton had any problems with each other - we're not talking Schumacher vs Hill, or Schumacher vs Villeneuve, or Kobiyashi on Nakajima

As I said in the other thread Jenson was totally within his rights to maintain slow pace (he didn't brake or weave, just kept a consistent slow pace round the hairpin), others behind were too keen to try and get an advantage.

WT

[Robinho]

I think you need to retune your freeview box in or something. Alonso nearly took his team mate out ON THE PIT ENTRY. That's amateur hour and not the way it should be. What if they'd tangled? What of the drivers who couldn't get into the pits? :confused:

Now I'm all for allowing a little leeway but what we saw today was amateur hour. We saw a driver back the field up to the point where we almost saw a comedy pileup which would be popular on youtube for years to come and we saw Alsono almost rip felipe's front off on the pit entry.

What we saw today wasn't professional racing, it was crap, utter amateur rubbish and drivers should be penalised for such foolish behaviour. We see the FIA warn Hamilton for gently weaving to break Petrov's tow but no warnings or penalties for this, it's hilariously bad.

so why do they have a kerb and gravel trap at that corner if its not part of the race track? if someone wnet off their on their own they could block the track. Massa is not bothered, the ferrari team aren't bothered, the stewards aren't bothered, why are you so much?

Hamilton did exactly the same to Vettel on the first (or second) stop, is this not a problem to you also?

the comedy pileup never occured, one driver took to the grass cos they misjudged the cars in front whilst trying to gain his own advantage from the restart. i asked you in each of the 3 threads we've had this discussion on now, did you see the reverse replay from Buttons car of the restart? what exactly is erratic and dangerous about slowing down for a hairpin bend. no one nearly hit Button, maybe someone else misjduged it in the field - this happens during most safety cars, someone if braking when someone else is accelerating and they overlap.

i agree Hamiltons warning was stupid, i'm not convinced by teh pitlane reprimand either, but there is no need to balance it out for handfing out penalties like confetti for the most mundane non incidents

[Daniel]

so why do they have a kerb and gravel trap at that corner if its not part of the race track? if someone wnet off their on their own they could block the track. Massa is not bothered, the ferrari team aren't bothered, the stewards aren't bothered, why are you so much?

Hamilton did exactly the same to Vettel on the first (or second) stop, is this not a problem to you also?

the comedy pileup never occured, one driver took to the grass cos they misjudged the cars in front whilst trying to gain his own advantage from the restart. i asked you in each of the 3 threads we've had this discussion on now, did you see the reverse replay from Buttons car of the restart? what exactly is erratic and dangerous about slowing down for a hairpin bend. no one nearly hit Button, maybe someone else misjduged it in the field - this happens during most safety cars, someone if braking when someone else is accelerating and they overlap.

i agree Hamiltons warning was stupid, i'm not convinced by teh pitlane reprimand either, but there is no need to balance it out for handfing out penalties like confetti for the most mundane non incidents
Tbh I'd forgotten about what Hamilton did to Vettel because of what happened about 30 seconds later but yes that was dumb.

You don't get it. You really don't get it. I never said Jenson's driving was erratic in terms of acceleration or decelleration or weaving. Neither did Brundle, what Brundle said was that Jenson failed in his obligation to drive in a manner which was not liable to cause an accident. Tbh if Jenson had done that in a dry race then it would have been fine. But

1) It was damp
2)We'd just had a safety car so people were on coolish tyres
3) Some people were on slicks
4) Some people were on rather worn intermediates

etc etc and if you don't get that then there's little hope. All it would have taken would be one driver misjudging things and there would have been a stupid pileup, thank god Shanghai is one of Tilke's uberwide borefests or there wouldn't have been room for everyone to get out of the way.

There seems to be a school of thought that if someone's reckless actions didn't cause an accident this time then it's all good. That's just complete BS. PSfan has come out and found the reg anyway which shows how much of a ballbag Jenson is and that what he did was wrong.

:rolleyes:

So why is my fave driver a German-ish? Lewis is a pr@t but today didn't do anything wrong (well at least not alone).

I wasn't aware you shared Wilko's views, Sonic. In fact, I never thought you did or would.

In fact, I put you in a much higher class than his sort.

[Robinho]

Tbh I'd forgotten about what Hamilton did to Vettel because of what happened about 30 seconds later but yes that was dumb.

You don't get it. You really don't get it. I never said Jenson's driving was erratic in terms of acceleration or decelleration or weaving. Neither did Brundle, what Brundle said was that Jenson failed in his obligation to drive in a manner which was not liable to cause an accident. Tbh if Jenson had done that in a dry race then it would have been fine. But

1) It was damp
2)We'd just had a safety car so people were on coolish tyres
3) Some people were on slicks
4) Some people were on rather worn intermediates

etc etc and if you don't get that then there's little hope. All it would have taken would be one driver misjudging things and there would have been a stupid pileup, thank god Shanghai is one of Tilke's uberwide borefests or there wouldn't have been room for everyone to get out of the way.

There seems to be a school of thought that if someone's reckless actions didn't cause an accident this time then it's all good. That's just complete BS. PSfan has come out and found the reg anyway which shows how much of a ballbag Jenson is and that what he did was wrong.

actually that was what Brundle said it was, he pinpointed the erratic part in his first assessment IIRC.

then you have made 4 qualifications of why it was dangerous and then mentioned another to give context that really should be one of the reasons it wasn't dangerous - its an ultrawide tilke borefest which meant there was plenty of room and runoff so there is room to get out of the way. maybe the stewards took that into account and decided that was enough for them.

its nothing to do with think thinking its ok cos the reckless action didn't cause an accident this time, its because i don't think it was a reckless action.

because the reg exists doesn't mean it was broken

[Jag_Warrior]

I am very happy that there are no penalties. Once again the new FIA under Todt shows that it does not want to mess with the race results. That's what I hoped to see from Jean!

I agree with you. I was growing weary of the FIA, and certain hack stewards, playing with results after the race... especially since their calls often lacked consistency. If they can't make a call during the race, it should be something VERY exceptional for them to change a result afterwards.

The pitlane thing could have gotten someone hurt. But Mr. Vettel also could have moved over without giving up his position, or at least not put the squeeze on to keep Hamilton in that slow lane. I agree with the stewards' decision.

The few flaws and incidents aside, I saw this race as an example of the truly best drivers in the world doing what they do best. So I'm certainly not in favor of putting them in dresses and having them dance around like a bunch of limp wristed pansies. I'm not suggesting any of that hack rubbin' is racin' stuff. But let the dogs hunt!!!

[Daniel]

actually that was what Brundle said it was, he pinpointed the erratic part in his first assessment IIRC.

then you have made 4 qualifications of why it was dangerous and then mentioned another to give context that really should be one of the reasons it wasn't dangerous - its an ultrawide tilke borefest which meant there was plenty of room and runoff so there is room to get out of the way. maybe the stewards took that into account and decided that was enough for them.

its nothing to do with think thinking its ok cos the reckless action didn't cause an accident this time, its because i don't think it was a reckless action.

because the reg exists doesn't mean it was broken
Surely you must realise that there's a tiny tiny difference in F1 between what is nearly an accident and what is a monumentally big accident. Now I'm not going to make it sound like Jenson's actions were going to get anyone killed or seriously injured because that's just not true, there was the potential for a massive pileup and retirements etc etc and that's just not fair.

[Sonic]

I wasn't aware you shared Wilko's views, Sonic. In fact, I never thought you did or would.

In fact, I put you in a much higher class than his sort.

:rolleyes: If his sort don't call people names based on little more than their nationality then, tes I'm right on board with Wilko's class.

Peace and love. :)

Sonic out.

[Robinho]

Surely you must realise that there's a tiny tiny difference in F1 between what is nearly an accident and what is a monumentally big accident. Now I'm not going to make it sound like Jenson's actions were going to get anyone killed or seriously injured because that's just not true, there was the potential for a massive pileup and retirements etc etc and that's just not fair.

yeah i realise that, i just don't think that this case was anywhere nearly as serious as you do

[Retro Formula 1]

I can't see much issue with the pit lane thing as they were released about the same time. There was no blame to the team as it was a split second decision to release him and perfectly correct at that time.

What screwed it up was lewis getting buckets of wheelspin letting Vettel get alongside.

Thankfully it has all been looked at and no further action will be taken apart from reprimanding them both.

This battle is really bubbling up isn't it?

[Roamy]

He is not near as bad as MS - Hell he is exciting - leave him alone.

[Mia 01]

The gate to the pit lane is marked with white lines and so are the pit itself. Driver are supposed to stay inside thoose. Lewis overtook Seb outside thoose lines. Seb drove inside thoose line in the pit, Lewis didn´t, he was trying to force his way in front of Seb, INSIDE THE PIT.

[airshifter]

The gate to the pit lane is marked with white lines and so are the pit itself. Driver are supposed to stay inside thoose. Lewis overtook Seb outside thoose lines. Seb drove inside thoose line in the pit, Lewis didn´t, he was trying to force his way in front of Seb, INSIDE THE PIT.

Do you have a rule that backs that opinion?

I'm not questioning your view, just wondering what the current rule is. I personally thought both of those overtakes on the pit entry could have caused major issue. If the current rule allows it, I think it's a poor rule. I have no problem with racers racing, but most pit entries are very small, and a driver on the inside could easily force one of the two into a wall or gravel trap. This doesn't so much bother me, but the fact that the next driver entering the pit might encounter a totally blocked track does.



As for the Lewis and Vettel incident on pit release, on first view I immediately thought Lewis should have been penalized. Upon slow motion replay I changed my opinion, and thought that if anything Vettel forced the bad situation. Once side by side Vettel gave Lewis no room at first, and the only way Lewis could have backed off was to move further towards the pit boxes, as otherwise their wheels could have tangled.

[truefan72]

You seem to have forgotten the rule which someone mentioned in another thread which says that Button can do what he wants and almost cause pileups but if two drivers get released at the same time and one gets more wheelspin than the other which results in them essentially going for the same bit of tarmac then he's evil! Evil I tell you!

Personally I didn't think anything Schumacher did was wrong though, he was tough but fair. He put his car where the others wanted to put their car or squeezed the other drivers gently enough that they had time to react.

What Alonso did was amazingly bad though.

yeah, I watched the race again and MSC, as you said, was tough but fair.

[truefan72]

I am very happy that there are no penalties. Once again the new FIA under Todt shows that it does not want to mess with the race results. That's what I hoped to see from Jean!

at the end of the day, I have to agree with you. Although I still think the Button restart was of low class. And the Alonso/Massa situation seemed to be left to the team to sort it out, because I think if it was another car there would have been a penalty.

But as you say it is somewhat refreshing to have a race without unnecessary penalties, and perhaps I just have to get fully readjusted back to a proper race without the police state like stewarding of years past.

so thumbs up to Todt for this refreshing approach.

[Ari]

As for the Lewis and Vettel incident on pit release, on first view I immediately thought Lewis should have been penalized. Upon slow motion replay I changed my opinion, and thought that if anything Vettel forced the bad situation. Once side by side Vettel gave Lewis no room at first, and the only way Lewis could have backed off was to move further towards the pit boxes, as otherwise their wheels could have tangled.

BUT why were they still side by side down the pit lane??

I agree that they were released very close to the same time. Vettel marginally before, but as they said on the BBC you can't expect a lollipop man to be checking not just pit lane but everyones pit box. That was excusable.

What was NOT excusable was that Vettel was a 2 metres ahead of Hamilton AND on the driving part of pitlane. Hamilton was on the side of pitlane, outside white lines and marginally missing airguns and all sorts.

It was ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE for Lewis to race in that fashion which he did. He should have backed off immediately seeing that Vettel was ahead of him and that he had no lane. Instead he raced all the way down pitlane side by side amongst mechanics and air guns etc.

For those saying that Vettel moved over.... why shouldn't he!? Hamilton had no lane! Why should Vettel try to accommodate someone who is somewhere they simply shouldn't be.

Fact is that Hamilton did the wrong thing and, being the FIA loveboy that he is, managed to get away without a penalty of any sort.

ABSOLUTE CORRUPTION. Simple as that. There is no excuse for what happened. Yes the release was very close to the same time but Hamilton, seeing that he had no lane, should have backed off and moved in instead of fishtailing (he's good at that) down pit lane amongst the other team space.

[Ari]

Look how close the equipment is to Hamiltons car. Had he grabbed an airgun with his wheel it could all have been very different.

For 10 seconds Lewis was next to, but marginally behind, Vettel down pitlane. It is NOT Vettels responsibility to make sure there is room for two cars. Vettel clearly got out first and Hamilton should have yielded but did not.

And, if almost comedic, Hamilton has the cheek to wave his arm in the air at the end of the pitlane to say to Vettel "hey, why'd ya move over.... I was trying to overtake you in the pitlane and you moved across on me".

I don't understand how anyone could defend this.... least of all the FIA.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3983/hamiltonvettel.jpg

[truefan72]

BUT why were they still side by side down the pit lane??

I agree that they were released very close to the same time. Vettel marginally before, but as they said on the BBC you can't expect a lollipop man to be checking not just pit lane but everyones pit box. That was excusable.

What was NOT excusable was that Vettel was a 2 metres ahead of Hamilton AND on the driving part of pitlane. Hamilton was on the side of pitlane, outside white lines and marginally missing airguns and all sorts.

It was ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE for Lewis to race in that fashion which he did. He should have backed off immediately seeing that Vettel was ahead of him and that he had no lane. Instead he raced all the way down pitlane side by side amongst mechanics and air guns etc.

For those saying that Vettel moved over.... why shouldn't he!? Hamilton had no lane! Why should Vettel try to accommodate someone who is somewhere they simply shouldn't be.

Fact is that Hamilton did the wrong thing and, being the FIA loveboy that he is, managed to get away without a penalty of any sort.

ABSOLUTE CORRUPTION. Simple as that. There is no excuse for what happened. Yes the release was very close to the same time but Hamilton, seeing that he had no lane, should have backed off and moved in instead of fishtailing (he's good at that) down pit lane amongst the other team space.

Ari, you really don't like Hamilton and it is jading your views of the whole matter, as it is your take on the relationship the FIA have with Hamilton, which is far from great as the many past decision against him have proven.

But lets not let something like the facts or a sensible view of things take away from your fantastical rant :|

[truefan72]

Look how close the equipment is to Hamiltons car. Had he grabbed an airgun with his wheel it could all have been very different.

For 10 seconds Lewis was next to, but marginally behind, Vettel down pitlane. It is NOT Vettels responsibility to make sure there is room for two cars. Vettel clearly got out first and Hamilton should have yielded but did not.

And, if almost comedic, Hamilton has the cheek to wave his arm in the air at the end of the pitlane to say to Vettel "hey, why'd ya move over.... I was trying to overtake you in the pitlane and you moved across on me".

I don't understand how anyone could defend this.... least of all the FIA.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3983/hamiltonvettel.jpg

comedy, your pictures actually strengthen the stance the stewards took which was to correctly reprimand both, although I think Vettel really was not playing nice in the pits. As you clearly see in your pictures, Vettel is all the way to the right edge of the line although he had plenty of room to move inside "as to not make the situation dangerous" but as I said. its hard to reason with folks who let their distaste blind them to the facts.

[airshifter]

comedy, your pictures actually strengthen the stance the stewards took which was to correctly reprimand both, although I think Vettel really was not playing nice in the pits. As you clearly see in your pictures, Vettel is all the way to the right edge of the line although he had plenty of room to move inside "as to not make the situation dangerous" but as I said. its hard to reason with folks who let their distaste blind them to the facts.

I agree. When I watched the action in slow motion there was already contact between Hamiltons front tire and Vettels rear at about the time Hamilton got going straight, as Vettel was squeezing him in. In that posted photo Lewis is already to the right of the pit lines, and the only way to give Vettel more room would be to move farther into the pit box areas.

It's not as if Lewis had any safe way to lift and allow Vettel to move forward to he could tuck in behind him. To do so would have risked more contact between the two cars potentially sending the cars into the wall filled with team engineers, or the pit boxes or garages filled with mechanics.

[ShiftingGears]

What race were you watching???

Hamilton made a crazy move, didn't respect white lines on entry to pitlane. Then made a crazy getaway from pitbox, sliding like hell, thus dangering picrews on several teams. Vettels slide was far less sideways.

He slid because he had to turn sharply to avoid Vettel. That makes it more the fault of those who released him into the path of another car than his. I have seen several drivers having to take evasive action such as Hamiltons, unfortunately thats what lower peripheral vision from the cockpit will entail.

However in retrospect, judging from the pictures, it was very clear that for a considerable amount of the time that Hamilton had enough of a gap not to lock wheels, and hence should have dropped behind Vettel.

[Ari]

Ari, you really don't like Hamilton and it is jading your views of the whole matter, as it is your take on the relationship the FIA have with Hamilton, which is far from great as the many past decision against him have proven.

But lets not let something like the facts or a sensible view of things take away from your fantastical rant :|

Fair points.

And no, I don't like Hamilton. You'd be happy I didn't post last night and decided to sleep on it instead. ;)

True re the other FIA/Hamilton clashing of heads. I just don't understand how such blatantly unsafe driving could sit with only a reprimand, particularly after his 'talking' at the conclusion of the last Grand Prix.

Each to their own though!

And I think Hamilton is a fantastic racing driver... I just don't like the way he goes about his business at times.

[Ari]

comedy, your pictures actually strengthen the stance the stewards took which was to correctly reprimand both, although I think Vettel really was not playing nice in the pits. As you clearly see in your pictures, Vettel is all the way to the right edge of the line although he had plenty of room to move inside "as to not make the situation dangerous" but as I said. its hard to reason with folks who let their distaste blind them to the facts.

I agree with you 100%. Vettel DID make things unsafe by moving across which was, for safetys sake, absolutely the wrong thing to do.

My question though, as I said above, is what right did Hamilton have to be there in the first place. He came out of his pit bay a couple metres behind Vettel and Vettel had the lane. He should have yielded..... instead he tried to race two-wide down pitlane which obviously is not acceptable.

I don't for a moment think Vettel is absolutely innocent. As soon as he moved over on Hamilton he takes some guilt. No doubting.

[Ari]

I agree. When I watched the action in slow motion there was already contact between Hamiltons front tire and Vettels rear at about the time Hamilton got going straight, as Vettel was squeezing him in. In that posted photo Lewis is already to the right of the pit lines, and the only way to give Vettel more room would be to move farther into the pit box areas.

It's not as if Lewis had any safe way to lift and allow Vettel to move forward to he could tuck in behind him. To do so would have risked more contact between the two cars potentially sending the cars into the wall filled with team engineers, or the pit boxes or garages filled with mechanics.

Fair point actually.

I guess then it becomes a question, which cannot be answered, of whether Hamilton would have yielded had Vettel moved over to the left and given him racing room even though effectively having the inside line to the next turn.

[Jag_Warrior]

And BOTH drivers got a reprimand! Why are we still beating this dead horse???

[SGWilko]

In a race where Button nearly causes a wreck at restart

Or, the drivers behind hav forgotten how to queue. They need to have lessons at my local Sainsbury's.....spend your life queueing there before some acne riddled 16 year old just about manages to mutter something resembling 'alright'..........

[SGWilko]

And BOTH drivers got a reprimand! Why are we still beating this dead horse???

'cos we've all finished picking our noses/scratching our nuts and are bored????

[SGWilko]

I wasn't aware you shared Wilko's views, Sonic. In fact, I never thought you did or would.

In fact, I put you in a much higher class than his sort.

I'm honored to be mentioned as a third party, thanks Tambourine.

My sort are easily pleased.

Mwaaaaaahhhhhh. ;)

[SGWilko]

:rolleyes: If his sort don't call people names based on little more than their nationality then, tes I'm right on board with Wilko's class.

Peace and love. :)

Sonic out.

According to Tambourine, I am a racist, bigot (and probably a smallot too...) I have three eyes and 6 toes.

Still, I have my cough splutter health! :laugh:

[SGWilko]

That makes it more the fault of those who released him into the path of another car than his.

Doh! He was not released into the path of another car though, was he? Lewis unfortunately lit up the rear wheels and was slow away. Were it not for that, he would have been ahead.

They were both in the wrong for what ensued - 6 of 1, half a dozen of 'tother.

Now, how's that volcano doing?

[SGWilko]

particularly after his 'talking' at the conclusion of the last Grand Prix.

Because that was last race, not this one....??????

Doh!

[ArrowsFA1]

...the replay clearly shows that he got released mere tenths after Vettel but got a shocking getaway, putting them side by side. With their tyres interlocking there was no way he could brake and get out of it. Vettel then attemped to push him into the mechanics' slow lane
That describes the incident very clearly :up:

As one of the commentators said Hamilton was never going to overtake anyway because of the pit lane speed limiter. Vettel squeezing the McLaren across the pitlane was dangerous and totally unnecessary.

[Mia 01]

BUT why were they still side by side down the pit lane??

I agree that they were released very close to the same time. Vettel marginally before, but as they said on the BBC you can't expect a lollipop man to be checking not just pit lane but everyones pit box. That was excusable.

What was NOT excusable was that Vettel was a 2 metres ahead of Hamilton AND on the driving part of pitlane. Hamilton was on the side of pitlane, outside white lines and marginally missing airguns and all sorts.

It was ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE for Lewis to race in that fashion which he did. He should have backed off immediately seeing that Vettel was ahead of him and that he had no lane. Instead he raced all the way down pitlane side by side amongst mechanics and air guns etc.

For those saying that Vettel moved over.... why shouldn't he!? Hamilton had no lane! Why should Vettel try to accommodate someone who is somewhere they simply shouldn't be.

Fact is that Hamilton did the wrong thing and, being the FIA loveboy that he is, managed to get away without a penalty of any sort.

ABSOLUTE CORRUPTION. Simple as that. There is no excuse for what happened. Yes the release was very close to the same time but Hamilton, seeing that he had no lane, should have backed off and moved in instead of fishtailing (he's good at that) down pit lane amongst the other team space.

Very good post!

[SGWilko]

ABSOLUTE CORRUPTION. Simple as that.

What, you reckon all the stewards walk away with a nice shiny new TAG watch and matching Vodafone iPhones????

Phoooeeeyyyyyy.

[SGWilko]

Of course, for your sort it's just easier to blame nasty Johnny Foreigner than admit fault.

Admit fault - what did I do sweetie?

[fandango]

I find it hard to believe that Hamilton didn't brake because their tyres interlocking would have caused an accident, as some claim. And it was because he didn't brake that Vettel moved over, which resulted in contact.

But Vettel stayed in his lane, even if he did move over. If they had been on track under a yellow flag then Vettel would have let Lewis through, knowing he'd be penalised for overtaking illegally.

But the message I get from the stewards here is that overtaking in the pitlane, or at least battling for position, is not as bad as overtaking under a yellow. I feel that the issue is not just whether you like Hamilton or not. We saw Kubica overtake at the start of a session in qualifying in Malaysia right at the end of the pitlane. Now this. It seems the stewards consider these moves okay, which I think is wrong.

So does anyone know what the reprimand means in practical terms? I mean, in football, if a player gets a yellow card then he knows that a second yellow equals a red card. What about Vettel and Hamilton? Hamilton has now had a warning (of sorts) and then a reprimand in two races.

[ArrowsFA1]

http://cdn.gallery.autosport.com/picture_free.php/dir/2010chi4/image/l__26y0247-2


http://cdn.gallery.autosport.com/picture_free.php/dir/2010chi4/image/l__26y0251-2

http://cdn.gallery.autosport.com/picture_free.php/dir/2010chi4/image/su_10chn1336-2

[Retro Formula 1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D5uMlUZnaU

Well, here we have it in glorious technicolour.

First we have Webber closing in on Hamilton effectively squeezing him into Vettel and then Vettel starts to drift out. Webber could have got out of it but decided to go off track as there's beautiful run-offs. Guess he wouldn't have been there had it been Monaco!!

I know that Hamilton races hard but there was no intention to punt Webber off that I can see.

[fandango]

The stewards have made their judgement, so it's all academic, but for the sake of passing time on a Monday morning, here is my reading of those photos.

The first one shows Vettel on the blue area as he gets away from his pit. You could say he's trying to cut Hamilton's getaway, but in the second photo Vettel is clearly well into the centre of the lane, where he should be. It seems to me that Vettel won the getaway from the pits contest, but that Hamilton was the last to realise or accept this.

In my view Vettel is trying to stop Hamilton from doing something that Lewis shouldn't have been trying in the first place, but that the stewards cannot be relied upon to rule clearly on.

[Nikey]

I have never really liked Hamilton but I have to give some credit to the guy. He has made a lot of exciting things happen on the track. I even kind of like how he bends the rules every now and then. Besides, he can be fast as hell. But at the pitlane he should have just backed down. Vettel didn't put him in a perfect position but Seb was ahead so he could do a thing like that. Hamilton was too stubborn and well...if an accident happens at the pitlane there's a lot more people who can get hurt than at track.

[Azumanga Davo]

He slid because he had to turn sharply to avoid Vettel. That makes it more the fault of those who released him into the path of another car than his. I have seen several drivers having to take evasive action such as Hamiltons, unfortunately thats what lower peripheral vision from the cockpit will entail.

However in retrospect, judging from the pictures, it was very clear that for a considerable amount of the time that Hamilton had enough of a gap not to lock wheels, and hence should have dropped behind Vettel.

The criteria for a safe release is that there must be no cars within the vicinity of the exiting car. Vettel's man looked, there was nothing, so a safe release. At almost the same split second, Hamilton's man looks, there was nothing in pit lane, so a safe release. But for whatever reason, Seb the Vet had good traction, Lewis had none.

Good luck getting ANYONE to give up their spot if they rightfully think it's theirs.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Lewis was a bit naughty in not slotting in behind Vettel and Vettel was a bit naughty in squeezing Lewis. Both got a rollocking. Let's move on.

[tintop]

It's not as if Lewis had any safe way to lift and allow Vettel to move forward to he could tuck in behind him. To do so would have risked more contact between the two cars potentially sending the cars into the wall filled with team engineers, or the pit boxes or garages filled with mechanics.

How so? Lifting at those speeds wouldn't have upset anything. That is, in fact, what Hamilton should have done. They were both being incredibly competitive going into and within the pit area, Vettel got out first and Hamilton should have tucked in behind him. Not sure what the appropriate penalty should have been but that is the easiest way to generate a fatal incident - car to car contact around unprotected and proximate people focusing intently on the job at hand i.e. pit crews

[SGWilko]

How so? Lifting at those speeds wouldn't have upset anything. That is, in fact, what Hamilton should have done. They were both being incredibly competitive going into and within the pit area, Vettel got out first and Hamilton should have tucked in behind him. Not sure what the appropriate penalty should have been but that is the easiest way to generate a fatal incident - car to car contact around unprotected and proximate people focusing intently on the job at hand i.e. pit crews

Pit crew are only allowed in the pit area when their car is pitting, right?

[tintop]

Pit crew are only allowed in the pit area when their car is pitting, right?
Or when they are about to pit. Your point being?

Look at all of the nice people in blue uni's that could have been taken out.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=782292&postcount=95

[Sonic]

Tintop: I think airshifter was suggesting that because vettel and Hamiltons wheels were interlocked, Lewis could not lift without probable wheel to wheel contact. Hell, its not like Hamster could have eased right to leave some room to lift off the gas and slot in! :D ;)

Anyways I think this debate has run its course now, well certainly from my POV so goodnight everyone. :)

[Ari]

The stewards have made their judgement, so it's all academic, but for the sake of passing time on a Monday morning, here is my reading of those photos.

The first one shows Vettel on the blue area as he gets away from his pit. You could say he's trying to cut Hamilton's getaway, but in the second photo Vettel is clearly well into the centre of the lane, where he should be. It seems to me that Vettel won the getaway from the pits contest, but that Hamilton was the last to realise or accept this.

In my view Vettel is trying to stop Hamilton from doing something that Lewis shouldn't have been trying in the first place, but that the stewards cannot be relied upon to rule clearly on.

Somebody get this guy a gold star!

Pretty much exactly how I read it.... but you said it with much less words. :p

[Ari]

What, you reckon all the stewards walk away with a nice shiny new TAG watch and matching Vodafone iPhones????

Phoooeeeyyyyyy.

Now that you mention it............. ;)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/1981/bernie.jpg

[airshifter]

How so? Lifting at those speeds wouldn't have upset anything. That is, in fact, what Hamilton should have done. They were both being incredibly competitive going into and within the pit area, Vettel got out first and Hamilton should have tucked in behind him. Not sure what the appropriate penalty should have been but that is the easiest way to generate a fatal incident - car to car contact around unprotected and proximate people focusing intently on the job at hand i.e. pit crews

I'm not stating that lifting would have upset the car, simply that after they had already made tire to tire contact lifting would have upset BOTH cars if the wheels touched again. Lewis did lift and tuck in once clear of the air hoses and such towards pit exit.

Had Vettel not kept him crowded to the right we might know what Lewis had done given some room.



Speaking of the entry, did anyone get the full coverage of the initial pit lane entry around the final corner? SpeedTV only showed it as they exited the corner.

In the Alonso/Massa entry Alonso clearly had all four tires to the inside of the marked lines. From where they cut in to the Vettel/Hamilton incident it only shows a couple of tires inside the line.

[Ari]

I'm not stating that lifting would have upset the car, simply that after they had already made tire to tire contact lifting would have upset BOTH cars if the wheels touched again. Lewis did lift and tuck in once clear of the air hoses and such towards pit exit.

They were only close before Vettel moved over after it became very apparent Hamilton had no intention to move in line behind him being that he was a metre behind and had no lane.


Had Vettel not kept him crowded to the right we might know what Lewis had done given some room.

Not true. Lewis WAS given room but chose to race instead. On doing this Vettel closed the door and moved across on him. Was it the wrong thing to do from a racing perspective? Absolutely not... Vettel owned that space and Lewis should have moved back. Was it the wrong thing to do from a safety perspective? Absolutely yes.... when Vettel moved across he himself put engineers at risk.


Speaking of the entry, did anyone get the full coverage of the initial pit lane entry around the final corner? SpeedTV only showed it as they exited the corner.

Hamilton went in first....

ReNA_VaSV50


In the Alonso/Massa entry Alonso clearly had all four tires to the inside of the marked lines. From where they cut in to the Vettel/Hamilton incident it only shows a couple of tires inside the line.

Not sure what you're saying here sorry!!

[SGWilko]

End of the day, pit lane clearly has space to accommodate two cars within the marked lines.

As I said earlier, they were both at fault. No doubt the stewards saw their behaviour in a competitive light, each transgression cancelling the other out, so deemed a reprimand for both appropriate.

Of course, maybe saturn has run rings around uranus and this is the result, but the former seems more plausible to me.

And, in the pits, the only other crew out in the entire remaining pit was Williams.

Perhaps we need a chap with a red flag to escort drivers to their pit.......

[wmcot]

Tbh I'd forgotten about what Hamilton did to Vettel because of what happened about 30 seconds later but yes that was dumb.

You don't get it. You really don't get it. I never said Jenson's driving was erratic in terms of acceleration or decelleration or weaving. Neither did Brundle, what Brundle said was that Jenson failed in his obligation to drive in a manner which was not liable to cause an accident. Tbh if Jenson had done that in a dry race then it would have been fine. But

1) It was damp
2)We'd just had a safety car so people were on coolish tyres
3) Some people were on slicks
4) Some people were on rather worn intermediates

etc etc and if you don't get that then there's little hope. All it would have taken would be one driver misjudging things and there would have been a stupid pileup, thank god Shanghai is one of Tilke's uberwide borefests or there wouldn't have been room for everyone to get out of the way.

There seems to be a school of thought that if someone's reckless actions didn't cause an accident this time then it's all good. That's just complete BS. PSfan has come out and found the reg anyway which shows how much of a ballbag Jenson is and that what he did was wrong.

Ease off on Jenson - he's just been watching too many NASCAR restarts! :)

[wmcot]

How so? Lifting at those speeds wouldn't have upset anything. That is, in fact, what Hamilton should have done. They were both being incredibly competitive going into and within the pit area, Vettel got out first and Hamilton should have tucked in behind him. Not sure what the appropriate penalty should have been but that is the easiest way to generate a fatal incident - car to car contact around unprotected and proximate people focusing intently on the job at hand i.e. pit crews

Agreed! If two cars touch wheels on the course, they end up off in the grass, armco, wall, etc. If it happens in the pits, they could end up in mechanics, other pitted cars, garages, etc. Seems to me that there needs to be a strict rule that cars in the pitlane must be single file or face (real) discipline, not a reprimand. The second car should fall in behind the first even if it is released 1 cm behind the other car.

You might lose a position, but we are talking about protecting lives - that's a bit more important!

[Mark]

Ease off on Jenson - he's just been watching too many NASCAR restarts! :)

Indeed. I remember watching CART (as was), and doing crazy things to get away at a pace car restart was standard practice!

[Volky34]

I really need to know something!!!! If you watch Ari's video of the pitlane incident, you will see the pit lane entry beginning at 1:20!!!

We can clearly see that Lewis overtakes Vettel by taking a racing line outside the white pit-entry lines. I thought drivers should be inside the white lines in the pit entry. Am I wrong or are we witnessing the slaughter of the rules by the FIA???

[SGWilko]

Now that you mention it............. ;)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/1981/bernie.jpg

Oh look, it's Victor Meldrew.....

[TheFamousEccles]

I have gone off Hamilton. Too many questionable actions and outright lies (apart from the burnout in Melbourne - props boy!). He's a spoilt little tool and needs to be handed his arse by someone - oh, lets say Button, for example???

[SGWilko]

I have gone off Hamilton. Too many questionable actions and outright lies (apart from the burnout in Melbourne - props boy!). He's a spoilt little tool and needs to be handed his arse by someone - oh, lets say Button, for example???

As a matter of pure curiosity - without requiring complicated and likely messy surgery, just how does one go about handing someones botty to them?

[BeansBeansBeans]

The changeable conditions in many of the races so far have played to Button's strengths. He has out-thought his rivals (including Hamilton) and has reaped the rewards. Still, I believe Hamilton is generally quicker, and over the course of the season I think his strengths will come to the fore, leaving him ahead of Button in the final reckoning. I have a lot of respect for both men and neither is handing the other their arse.

[ArrowsFA1]

Its funny that these are two competitive drivers who appear to get on very well with each other and both have a high level of respect for one anothers ability...
According to JB:

"It's good to have a team-mate who's that competitive. The guy will never give up. He's like a pit-bull. He will never give up. He is going to fight until the end and I love having a team-mate who's like that. He's amazingly quick. He's an exceptional driver. That's also nice because we push each other very hard and we are going to be pushing each other very hard this year."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83065

[TheFamousEccles]

I do understand the intangibles that go into a successful F1 career, but from where I sit, Hamilton comes across the least likeable.

As for the handing of the arse, it involves (but not limited to) Button winning twice so far this season, when the popular opinion was that he was the bunny, hired to make the precocious talent look good and run around near the front so the sponsors got some coverage whilst the fortunate son got on with trouncing the field - in short, very definitely a #2 driver.

Yes, Hamilton can drive, yes he has talent, but he lacks quite a bit in the sportsmanship realm (as do many others, I am aware of this). And in my opinion, in this current phase of F1, where sympatico with the car, tyres, fuel burn, conditions, etc are paramount, Button has it all over the fortunate son.

[Mia 01]

The pressure is very much on Lewis now, and it will increase.

The pressure vill not benefit his driving.

[SGWilko]

The pressure is very much on Lewis now, and it will increase.

The pressure vill not benefit his driving.

Actually, I think it vill.

[donKey jote]

We can clearly see that Lewis overtakes Vettel by taking a racing line outside the white pit-entry lines. I thought drivers should be inside the white lines in the pit entry.
hehe you should have heard Spanish TV and the Spanish chats...
until Alonso did the same a bit later on :D

Funnily enough English TV only appears to have moaned about Alonso ;) :p

[Mia 01]

Actually, I think it vill.

So, then we will see.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Hamilton will be an unstoppable force with the right team only WHEN he stops doing really stupid acts that could and have wrecked him. He is lousy when it comes to tire management (look at how Jenson has two wins this year and tire management was a factor in both) and he doesn't know when to pull his horns in and apply a little guile and patience.

That said, No one on the charge is as fun to watch as Lewis. The only complaints I have is his braindead acts such as racing side by side in and out of the pits. Dumb.....because if the stewards were on the ball, they should have punished him for pit lane violations. I am thinking if he isn't Lewis Hamilton, there is a penalty applied. I guess racing Vettel side by side in pit lane with people standing there isn't a problem until they touch wheels one day and a guy gets launched into someone's pit box with the crew standing there. Dumb....

Lewis when he gets a year or two more schooling will be as good as anyone in recent history...

[Mia 01]

Indeed, he is still learning.

Now he is going to learn how to drive, that is in the Jenson style.

[airshifter]

I really need to know something!!!! If you watch Ari's video of the pitlane incident, you will see the pit lane entry beginning at 1:20!!!

We can clearly see that Lewis overtakes Vettel by taking a racing line outside the white pit-entry lines. I thought drivers should be inside the white lines in the pit entry. Am I wrong or are we witnessing the slaughter of the rules by the FIA???

This was my question regarding the entry, and I agree.

In past races, if a driver gains advantage by passing when outside the lines of the track, they must give back the postion. It's possible that they ignored that issue since Vettel got him on the way out. BUT Alonso was not forced to yield position to Massa, and he did the same thing.

[wmcot]

It seems that the stewards have gone from looking at every action with a microscope (the last few years) to turning a blind eye to everything this year. I'm not sure that the drivers would get away so easily if they had the same enforcement that ALMS has. ALMS seems to have the best stewarding I have seen - swift and consistent.

[F1boat]

I dunno, I am so happy that they allow the drivers to race, since I was little kid it seemed that racing audacity was always penalized. IMO their decisions this year was all right.

[Big Ben]

I love his driving. Good for us, bad for him. The perfect combo.

[Bagwan]

Lewis had wheelspin , and knew he was beaten .

But , he didn't give up .

This prompted Vettel to move in , to emphasize his right to the lane .
He was fully in the lane before Hamilton , and beside him .

That race was over , as no F-duct was going to get him down the lane any faster than the limitter would allow .



Lewis has a serious problem with the red mist , where he tends towards the "deliberate , but instinctual " moves , in times of crisis .
His racing down the blue lane prompted Sebastian to assert his right . Whether this reaction was clever or not should be looked at in the light of what his rival was up to .

My initial reaction was to say "Give up , you idiot . He beat you into the lane ." .
Upon rewatching the video , I remain with the view that Lewis lost the plot in the incident .
He was never going to win a race on a limitter .


Similarly , when chased by a "lowly" rookie in a "lowly" yellow car last race , he swerved wildly , prompting clarification of the swerve rules .


Lewis seems to live in the moment , and if , in that moment , a crisis occurs that can tarnish his self-image , he cannot be trusted to make a decision that isn't wholly about repair .

[Mia 01]

Lewis had wheelspin , and knew he was beaten .

But , he didn't give up .

This prompted Vettel to move in , to emphasize his right to the lane .
He was fully in the lane before Hamilton , and beside him .

That race was over , as no F-duct was going to get him down the lane any faster than the limitter would allow .



Lewis has a serious problem with the red mist , where he tends towards the "deliberate , but instinctual " moves , in times of crisis .
His racing down the blue lane prompted Sebastian to assert his right . Whether this reaction was clever or not should be looked at in the light of what his rival was up to .

My initial reaction was to say "Give up , you idiot . He beat you into the lane ." .
Upon rewatching the video , I remain with the view that Lewis lost the plot in the incident .
He was never going to win a race on a limitter .


Similarly , when chased by a "lowly" rookie in a "lowly" yellow car last race , he swerved wildly , prompting clarification of the swerve rules .


Lewis seems to live in the moment , and if , in that moment , a crisis occurs that can tarnish his self-image , he cannot be trusted to make a decision that isn't wholly about repair .

A very good post.

Lewis had wheelspin , and knew he was beaten .

But , he didn't give up .

This prompted Vettel to move in , to emphasize his right to the lane .
He was fully in the lane before Hamilton , and beside him .

That race was over , as no F-duct was going to get him down the lane any faster than the limitter would allow .



Lewis has a serious problem with the red mist , where he tends towards the "deliberate , but instinctual " moves , in times of crisis .
His racing down the blue lane prompted Sebastian to assert his right . Whether this reaction was clever or not should be looked at in the light of what his rival was up to .

My initial reaction was to say "Give up , you idiot . He beat you into the lane ." .
Upon rewatching the video , I remain with the view that Lewis lost the plot in the incident .
He was never going to win a race on a limitter .


Similarly , when chased by a "lowly" rookie in a "lowly" yellow car last race , he swerved wildly , prompting clarification of the swerve rules .


Lewis seems to live in the moment , and if , in that moment , a crisis occurs that can tarnish his self-image , he cannot be trusted to make a decision that isn't wholly about repair .

Post of the season.

[Bagwan]

You forgot to put in that he's a liar, a cheat, with a distasteful personality, and I think you'd have yourself a pretty unbiased, impartial post worthy of respect on this forum.. Its endorsements speak for themselves. :laugh: :p

Thank you , Mia and Tamburello .

Those traits were irrelevent to this discussion , henners , and would only incite argument .

I do respect your boy for being a good driver . He's as good as any out there as far as race craft goes , but he doesn't seem to handle pressure well .




Please , pardon me for saying so , but I don't think you do , either .

It's only my opinion of a race car driver . No big dealie .

[speeddurango]

What I am really impressed by Button in comparison to Hamilton is he outqualified Hamilton in China. Since in race terms, there have been 3 rainy ones and that shouldn't count as a valid measure.

[Mia 01]

Thank you , Mia and Tamburello .

Those traits were irrelevent to this discussion , henners , and would only incite argument .

I do respect your boy for being a good driver . He's as good as any out there as far as race craft goes , but he doesn't seem to handle pressure well .




Please , pardon me for saying so , but I don't think you do , either .

It's only my opinion of a race car driver . No big dealie .

One moore of thoose good posts.

When the Red Mist hits, as it will a couple of times each races, Lewis again, theres moore pain than brain.

[fandango]

I originally started this thread because I didn't like what I saw in the race. But after the stewards' ruling on this, Hamilton is right to have done what he did. Vettel too.

No real penalty, so that means you can now race for position in the pitlane. What if Button and Alonso do it in the next race? Should they get a reprimand too?

I think the stewards have messed up again.

[SGWilko]

Post of the season.

Make your mind up - I think we have had at least one other - post of the year/season from you.

Maybe you are indecisive, or perhaps you are just not sure???

Perhaps you should publish post league tables.... :laugh:

[SGWilko]

I originally started this thread because I didn't like what I saw in the race. But after the stewards' ruling on this, Hamilton is right to have done what he did. Vettel too.

No real penalty, so that means you can now race for position in the pitlane. What if Button and Alonso do it in the next race? Should they get a reprimand too?

I think the stewards have messed up again.

Errr, wise up. There were cicumstances to be considered here.

How would the Stewards act if two cars happened to be side by side again, but one driver left room for the other, so they were side by side AND within the lines? They ought to be travelling at the same speed after all, so no advantage to be gained.

If the exact same circumstances happen again as happened in China, with the same two drivers or not, I rightly expect DSQ's to be handed out to both of them.

[fandango]

Errr, wise up. There were cicumstances to be considered here.

How would the Stewards act if two cars happened to be side by side again, but one driver left room for the other, so they were side by side AND within the lines? They ought to be travelling at the same speed after all, so no advantage to be gained.

If the exact same circumstances happen again as happened in China, with the same two drivers or not, I rightly expect DSQ's to be handed out to both of them.

In that case, they would be receiving a different punishment for the same offence, wouldn't they? And why a disqualification? Why not a stop-go, or a drive-through?

Alonso correctly got a drive-through for jumping the start in China. So if, for example, another driver jumpstarts in Barcelona, what punishment should they get? Obviously, it should be a drive-through because that is the established sanction. But bear with me, here.

If it was Hamilton, and he was disqualified, then everyone would be up in arms about it. But of course the stewards could justify themselves by saying that he had already got a warning and a reprimand in the previous races. (That would keep us going on here for months)

The point I'm trying to make is that it's important that each time the rules are broken, the sanction must be consistent. And the stewards have left things open to improvisation, again.

[SGWilko]

In that case, they would be receiving a different punishment for the same offence, wouldn't they? And why a disqualification? Why not a stop-go, or a drive-through?

Alonso correctly got a drive-through for jumping the start in China. So if, for example, another driver jumpstarts in Barcelona, what punishment should they get? Obviously, it should be a drive-through because that is the established sanction. But bear with me, here.

If it was Hamilton, and he was disqualified, then everyone would be up in arms about it. But of course the stewards could justify themselves by saying that he had already got a warning and a reprimand in the previous races. (That would keep us going on here for months)

The point I'm trying to make is that it's important that each time the rules are broken, the sanction must be consistent. And the stewards have left things open to improvisation, again.

No, because now the Stewards have set the precedent, and no doubt it will be made crystal clear in the next briefing. WHat I can tell you is that Vettel wont be turning towards the garages again, and Lewis wont be straddling the blue line again.

There is also benefit of the doubt in certain situations. The circumstances as to how Lewis and Vettel were side by side were unusual, and taken into account.

A jump start is a jump start - there is no ambiguity.

If Lewis weaves again for example, I would expect more than a reprimand, wouldn't you? Maybe a stop go? ANd if he does it again, grid drop? ANd again, race bans.....

I think a little logic has to be applied. As has been pointed out before, we want to see racing and races decided on the track, not 3 hours after it has finished.

[SGWilko]

I want to know more about this red mist Lewis suffers from. Can we see it through the visor? Is it possible others can suffer from it too? Kubica, Vettel, Schumacher, Alonso have all been erratic in the past on track, but is this a different diagnosis in their circumstances?

The red mist is a phenomenon borne of eating too many red coloured foods. What happens is, in the nomex romper race suit, a 'love puff' has nowhere to escape but up, and out through the visor. In the case of the red food addict, this results in a red hue.......

[SGWilko]

A fair analysis :up: .

...is a study on travelling entertainment providers....

[SGWilko]

So its basically different and the total opposite to the "Purple Haze" I suffered from when I was at University? Got ya. :s mokin:

FIN.

No silly, you are describing a song by Prince, or AFKAP as he, she, him, it was once monikered.......

Oh, no, that was rain. Blast! ;)

END

[fandango]

No, because now the Stewards have set the precedent, and no doubt it will be made crystal clear in the next briefing. WHat I can tell you is that Vettel wont be turning towards the garages again, and Lewis wont be straddling the blue line again.

There is also benefit of the doubt in certain situations. The circumstances as to how Lewis and Vettel were side by side were unusual, and taken into account.

A jump start is a jump start - there is no ambiguity.

If Lewis weaves again for example, I would expect more than a reprimand, wouldn't you? Maybe a stop go? ANd if he does it again, grid drop? ANd again, race bans.....

I think a little logic has to be applied. As has been pointed out before, we want to see racing and races decided on the track, not 3 hours after it has finished.

I don't think what you are saying is consistent. When Hamilton weaved in front of Petrov, then surely, according to your logic, he should have been penalised with more than a warning, because a precedent to THAT incident had indeed been set. Everyone could see what he did was not within the rules, it's been done before, and there are even probably examples of drivers actually being punished for less. That's why we know it's not legal. But it hasn't happened recently, so he only gets a warning.

So, imagine if the Hamilton Vettel incident is not repeated in Spain in two weeks, but does happen again in two years time in Silverstone.

I think it makes sense that the jump start is punished as it is. It makes sense that overtaking under a yellow flag is punishable as it is. But in this ruling, the stewards are effectively saying that running down the pitlane side by side is less serious than overtaking under a yellow.

They should at least tell everyone what will happen to any driver who does that again in future - something immediate, like a drive-through, during the race. If they don't, they risk leaving things open to interpretation on the day, and opening themselves to accusations of favouritism.

[SGWilko]

I don't think what you are saying is consistent. You've spoken to my wife then..... :laugh:
When Hamilton weaved in front of Petrov, then surely, according to your logic, he should have been penalised with more than a warning, because a precedent to THAT incident had indeed been set. Everyone could see what he did was not within the rules, it's been done before, and there are even probably examples of drivers actually being punished for less. That's why we know it's not legal. But it hasn't happened recently, so he only gets a warning. Difference being it was not defence of an overtake, it was to prevent a move being planned by breaking the tow.


So, imagine if the Hamilton Vettel incident is not repeated in Spain in two weeks, but does happen again in two years time in Silverstone. Same will apply if it is a second offence......


I think it makes sense that the jump start is punished as it is. It makes sense that overtaking under a yellow flag is punishable as it is. But in this ruling, the stewards are effectively saying that running down the pitlane side by side is less serious than overtaking under a yellow.

They should at least tell everyone what will happen to any driver who does that again in future - something immediate, like a drive-through, during the race. If they don't, they risk leaving things open to interpretation on the day, and opening themselves to accusations of favouritism.

[Retro Formula 1]

No silly, you are describing a song by Prince, or AFKAP as he, she, him, it was once monikered.......

Oh, no, that was rain. Blast! ;)

END

You fool.

It was a Deep Purple Smoke on the water left by all the Purple Rain!

Anyway, back to the thread and the thrilling post from a few purple heads.

[SGWilko]

But in this ruling, the stewards are effectively saying that running down the pitlane side by side is less serious than overtaking under a yellow.

They should at least tell everyone what will happen to any driver who does that again in future - something immediate, like a drive-through, during the race. If they don't, they risk leaving things open to interpretation on the day, and opening themselves to accusations of favouritism.

Consider first the chances of the Vettel/Lewis incident being repeated in the same way.....

[SGWilko]

You fool.


Yikes

[Retro Formula 1]

Yikes

I'm sorry, it was supposed to be a joke. Perhaps i should use a :)

[SGWilko]

I'm sorry, it was supposed to be a joke. Perhaps i should use a :)

Hey, no need to apologise - I took it as a joke.

If I was offended, my post would have been long rambling and grumpy.... :)

[Rover V8]

Lewis had wheelspin , and knew he was beaten .

But , he didn't give up .

This prompted Vettel to move in , to emphasize his right to the lane .
He was fully in the lane before Hamilton , and beside him .

That race was over , as no F-duct was going to get him down the lane any faster than the limitter would allow .



Lewis has a serious problem with the red mist , where he tends towards the "deliberate , but instinctual " moves , in times of crisis .
His racing down the blue lane prompted Sebastian to assert his right . Whether this reaction was clever or not should be looked at in the light of what his rival was up to .

My initial reaction was to say "Give up , you idiot . He beat you into the lane ." .
Upon rewatching the video , I remain with the view that Lewis lost the plot in the incident .
He was never going to win a race on a limitter .




.....and Vettel didn't lose the plot?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of Hamilton's action (and yes, I think he was an idiot for trying to keep the position alongside Vettel after making a mess of his getaway from the pit, losing traction and getting sideways), but since when has it been Vettel's right or responsibility to police that by pushing Hamilton back towards the pit garages?

To put it another way, if someone on the road tries to overtake me illegally, and it ends in an accident, then I don't expect to get much sympathy from the traffic cops if they find out my last act before the accident was to move over on the guy who was trying to overtake me....

All Vettel needed to do was sit tight and hold his line- and Hamilton would have had to back out of it before the end of the pitlane- but he didn't, he tried to force the issue, and rightly got reprimanded

As far as I'm concerned, they're both at fault here, and I'd have been perfectly comfortable to see both get a drive-through for it

[fandango]

Consider first the chances of the Vettel/Lewis incident being repeated in the same way.....

With pitstops as short as they are this year, and changeable weather, surely it's only a matter of time.

By the second half of the season, when the pit crews are well practiced, in Spa for example. Imagine two, three or even four lollipops being raised at the same time....

[Rover V8]

No silly, you are describing a song by Prince, or AFKAP as he, she, him, it was once monikered.......

Oh, no, that was rain. Blast! ;)

END

Purple Haze?

Hendrix, surely....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_i5Ca1FYko

[Rover V8]

With pitstops as short as they are this year, and changeable weather, surely it's only a matter of time.

By the second half of the season, when the pit crews are well practiced, in Spa for example. Imagine two, three or even four lollipops being raised at the same time....

Yep, by mid-season I wouldn't be surprised to have seen a few similar scenarios play out- especially if we get some more wet races....

I'd tend to agree with you about the drivethrough

[Bagwan]

.....and Vettel didn't lose the plot?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of Hamilton's action (and yes, I think he was an idiot for trying to keep the position alongside Vettel after making a mess of his getaway from the pit, losing traction and getting sideways), but since when has it been Vettel's right or responsibility to police that by pushing Hamilton back towards the pit garages?

To put it another way, if someone on the road tries to overtake me illegally, and it ends in an accident, then I don't expect to get much sympathy from the traffic cops if they find out my last act before the accident was to move over on the guy who was trying to overtake me....

All Vettel needed to do was sit tight and hold his line- and Hamilton would have had to back out of it before the end of the pitlane- but he didn't, he tried to force the issue, and rightly got reprimanded

As far as I'm concerned, they're both at fault here, and I'd have been perfectly comfortable to see both get a drive-through for it


I'd have been comfortable with a drive-through for Vettel and a 10second stop for Hamilton .
Either way , I saw it as dangerous , and something that should never be allowed again .

Severe sanction should ensue , though , once this is clarified and hopefully regulated , if anyone tries this again .

[F1boat]

Well, I guess everybody has his opinion and can curse or praise the stewards. I prefer their new way compared to what we had in previous years.

[race_director]

i have been wondering for a long time now, from the day i saw him in 2007 i feel he is a very dangerous driver, i think he is a bit unstable and need some time of medication.


i think f1 is better of without him . my real fear is that , if we allow him to race we could see some fatal injuries to fellow drivers, i think he needs a rehab or a crash course on f1.


he is not fit for f1 as of now, with his cheating and all his dangerous driving.

I think he need to attend school again and learn the basics of sportmanship all over again.

best of luck to other drivers. i would hold RONN accountable for any fatalities cuz of his spoilt kid on the track.


regardless of how much his supporters cry. there is proven data to prove that he is a danger to the whole paddock .



i think he needs atleast 3-4 years more to mature into a great drive.
he is simply dangerous for other 23 cars on field, and i fear that his driving can lead to some serious problems in the future.

[Donney]

Some of his moves might be questionable but F1 is better with him.

[Valve Bounce]

i have been wondering for a long time now, from the day i saw him in 2007 i feel he is a very dangerous driver, i think he is a bit unstable and need some time of medication.


i think f1 is better of without him . my real fear is that , if we allow him to race we could see some fatal injuries to fellow drivers, i think he needs a rehab or a crash course on f1.


he is not fit for f1 as of now, with his cheating and all his dangerous driving.

I think he need to attend school again and learn the basics of sportmanship all over again.

best of luck to other drivers. i would hold RONN accountable for any fatalities cuz of his spoilt kid on the track.


regardless of how much his supporters cry. there is proven data to prove that he is a danger to the whole paddock .



i think he needs atleast 3-4 years more to mature into a great drive.
he is simply dangerous for other 23 cars on field, and i fear that his driving can lead to some serious problems in the future.

I think you need to know the difference between F1 and The Classical Music as Max Biaggi put it. .

[UltimateDanGTR]

i have been wondering for a long time now, from the day i saw him in 2007 i feel he is a very dangerous driver, i think he is a bit unstable and need some time of medication.


i think f1 is better of without him . my real fear is that , if we allow him to race we could see some fatal injuries to fellow drivers, i think he needs a rehab or a crash course on f1.


he is not fit for f1 as of now, with his cheating and all his dangerous driving.

I think he need to attend school again and learn the basics of sportmanship all over again.

best of luck to other drivers. i would hold RONN accountable for any fatalities cuz of his spoilt kid on the track.


regardless of how much his supporters cry. there is proven data to prove that he is a danger to the whole paddock .



i think he needs atleast 3-4 years more to mature into a great drive.
he is simply dangerous for other 23 cars on field, and i fear that his driving can lead to some serious problems in the future.

OK, you've said your opinion, which is fair enough. I totally disagree with you, and I can't see how he's a danger (he's a racer-I don't see that as being dangerous). Occasioanlly hot headed for sure, you could say he's spoilt but only because he was good enough to be IMO.

But, You claim there is proven data supporting what you say and thus proving me wrong, now show me that.

[fandango]

Some of his moves might be questionable but F1 is better with him.

I agree completely.

[fandango]

..Difference being it was not defence of an overtake, it was to prevent a move being planned by breaking the tow.

I can (grudgingly) accept that distinction.

The only thing is, the no-weaving rule was partly to keep things fair and partly to reduce danger. Hamilton's weaving could have caused an accident, if Petrov had decided to try to go alongside Hamilton to "show his nose", and try to force an error, as many drivers do. I don't think Hamilton could have known exactly what Petrov was going to try, and that's why it surprises me that the stewards let him away with it.

Don't get me wrong, my gripe is more with the stewards than with Hamilton.

[markabilly]

i i think he is a bit unstable and need some time of medication.


.


Me too.

heavy doses of ketamine and lysergide mixed with kool aid in his water bottle right before the start of races should put him in a better frame of mind

works great for me, ...... :beer:

[Valve Bounce]

Me too.

heavy doses of ketamine and lysergide mixed with kool aid in his water bottle right before the start of races should put him in a better frame of mind

works great for me, ...... :beer:

Heck!! I just stick with oodles of cough mixture. :crazy:

[Roamy]

How quickly you people forget Senna and Schumacher in his prime.

Lewis is quite entertaining - brave and very fast. He is a credit to the floundering F1. But I can understand how people who watch soccer could be afraid of this guy :)

[truefan72]

i have been wondering for a long time now, from the day i saw him in 2007 i feel he is a very dangerous driver, i think he is a bit unstable and need some time of medication.


i think f1 is better of without him . my real fear is that , if we allow him to race we could see some fatal injuries to fellow drivers, i think he needs a rehab or a crash course on f1.


he is not fit for f1 as of now, with his cheating and all his dangerous driving.

I think he need to attend school again and learn the basics of sportmanship all over again.

best of luck to other drivers. i would hold RONN accountable for any fatalities cuz of his spoilt kid on the track.


regardless of how much his supporters cry. there is proven data to prove that he is a danger to the whole paddock .



i think he needs atleast 3-4 years more to mature into a great drive.
he is simply dangerous for other 23 cars on field, and i fear that his driving can lead to some serious problems in the future.

April fools day was 3 weeks ago

[race_director]

i just wrote what i thought, regarding data. may be i was a bit harsh . but i dont feel comfortable seeing his driving style,

be he is a fighter i agree . among the most dedicated in his work

[BDunnell]

How quickly you people forget Senna and Schumacher in his prime.

Or countless other drivers. I doubt those being over-critical (I say that because I do feel Hamilton has gone a bit over the top on occasion) would have been able to cope with the Villeneuve/Arnoux scrap at Dijon in 1979, or would have felt that the battle between Surtees and Brabham into the Parabolica on the last lap at Monza in 1967 was almost suicidal.

[Retro Formula 1]

How quickly you people forget Senna and Schumacher in his prime.

Lewis is quite entertaining - brave and very fast. He is a credit to the floundering F1. But I can understand how people who watch soccer could be afraid of this guy :)

The exact same thoughts were going through my head.

Hamilton is a shot in the arm for F1 and we are privileged to be witnessing an era with such a strong field compared to the drought of the Schumacher era when at best there was only 1 other driver with the ability to compete per season.

Now, in spite of the regulations in place, we have a very competitive field and a worthy spectacle.

Yet people moan because Hamilton doesn't drive like a manufactured F1 driver is supposed to.

Some people on here could win the lottery and feel aggrieved Bill Gates has more.

[truefan72]

The exact same thoughts were going through my head.

Hamilton is a shot in the arm for F1 and we are privileged to be witnessing an era with such a strong field compared to the drought of the Schumacher era when at best there was only 1 other driver with the ability to compete per season.

Now, in spite of the regulations in place, we have a very competitive field and a worthy spectacle.

Yet people moan because Hamilton doesn't drive like a manufactured F1 driver is supposed to.

Some people on here could win the lottery and feel aggrieved Bill Gates has more.

how true,

i was going to say something, but got distracted by that : Cougar Life "they are all grown up" banner ad at the bottom. :)

[markabilly]

Some people on here could win the lottery and feel aggrieved Bill Gates has more.
yeah, I know what you mean. I only won once in ten years ----three dollars it was, and was pissed I did not win fifty dollars :mad:

I am so unlucky, my popup banner is only about tires :(

[fandango]

Or countless other drivers. I doubt those being over-critical (I say that because I do feel Hamilton has gone a bit over the top on occasion) would have been able to cope with the Villeneuve/Arnoux scrap at Dijon in 1979, or would have felt that the battle between Surtees and Brabham into the Parabolica on the last lap at Monza in 1967 was almost suicidal.

What was wonderful about Villeneuve and Arnoux was that they knew when they were beaten, and they came back half a lap later.

The problem is not Hamilton, really; He pushes the bounds of what's allowable, as any top sportsperson should do (I say that even though I don't like him, but I'm happy he's there, we all need a baddie in the drama). The problem is that the stewards are being very unclear as to where the line is, the line that should not be crossed.

[Saint Devote]

It is equally better to do nothing as something always.

I have seen Lewis before. He is the driver with immense ability, but he is also the driver that cannot do nothing.

He showed that in 2009 at Monte Carlo - he understood that his car was not good enough for pole position, yet he went at qualifying that overreached and he crashed.

Another moment was Monza 2009 where instead of settling for points and building, he crashed on the last lap due to an irrational belief that he would have caught and passed Jenson.

Now while there are those who might consider this an overly critical look at the Brit by a Jenson supporter, it is rather an illustration of a driver with deep flaw.

Villeneuve was killed due to having this same flaw. He could never read a situation but just WENT!

Of course this will "wow" the crowds, and celebrate him.

It is also a trait that the man he is compared with, Senna, never had.

Everything Senna did was never governed by that "red mist" - it was pre-meditated. His ability was also superior to that of Hamilton in acute situations.

While his teammate Jenson reminds me more of drivers such as Jody Scheckter and Emerson Fittipaldi than anyone else, it is Gilles Villeneuve that Hamilton is developing into. If ever a driver required the firm guidance of "Uncle Ken", it is he.

And those past top drivers of the sport and commentators who celebrate and refrain from constructive Hamilton criticism, are not doing the driver any good.

[Mia 01]

Lewis is now driving so fair and fast that BE has to defend him. Whats next?

[Saint Devote]

On the flip side you could say that this is the same driver who kept his cool and won the 2008 Monaco GP, and also won the 2008 WDC in the dying moments of the 2008 Brazilian GP. Pointing out the 2 mistakes you mention quite frequently to justify this red mist and character trait is quite a weak arguement IMO. I'm not saying Lewis is flawless but he has had 56 races in F1 now and these 2 occasions are hardly a representation of his overall driving style.

How many times did Schumi lose it when pushing beyond the limit? Not very often but it did happen... :)

Now dont start invoking Schumcher here - in his first 50 races he was outqualified by his teammate only once.

Its not the mistakes I am referring to. It is his approach on track. There is not the calculating mind of Senna or Schumacher. Hamilton is like Villeneuve, there is only one track regardless of conclusion.

The Button - Hamilton partnership is less like Senna - Prost, but more like Villeneuve - Scheckter.

Of course racing is far safer today and that is good.

[BDunnell]

I'm not sure comparisons with other drivers are all that relevant, on reflection. Each is his own man. A driver may remind one of another, but that's pretty much as far as it goes.

[Mia 01]

Perhaps Lewis needs a car with longer wheelbase (like MS), then it will be easier to take the sharp turns in the pit entry.

[SGWilko]

Perhaps Lewis needs a car with longer wheelbase (like MS), then it will be easier to take the sharp turns in the pit entry.

A shorter wheelbase will help with the pit entry, as it makes the car more nimble. One of the reasons why 'longer' cars are generally shyte at Monaco.

[Mia 01]

A shorter wheelbase will help with the pit entry, as it makes the car more nimble. One of the reasons why 'longer' cars are generally shyte at Monaco.

Sorry, you are right. Perhaps Red Bull has a longer wheelbase than the MacLaren then.

[Mia 01]

I'm not sure it does actually. I remember seeing side profile comparisons during testing and the Red Bull was similar in length to the Mclaren. The Ferrari was shorter if I remember right which is the first time in recent years that its fallen behind Mclaren in length. That was the reason why the Mclaren had better speed at Monaco compared with its crimson rivals.. :)

Interesting. Then we will see at Monaco then.

Perhaps MacLaren will develop a new chassi for that race and Hungary.

[Mia 01]

I´m still curious.

[ioan]

I'm not sure it does actually. I remember seeing side profile comparisons during testing and the Red Bull was similar in length to the Mclaren. The Ferrari was shorter if I remember right which is the first time in recent years that its fallen behind Mclaren in length. That was the reason why the Mclaren had better speed at Monaco compared with its crimson rivals.. :)

The Ferrari was shorter last season, but then they lengthened the wheel base by changing the front suspension geometry.
Where did you see those comparisons this season? I would like to have a glimpse at them too.

[airshifter]

Where did you see those comparisons this season? I would like to have a glimpse at them too.

You might want to check the "launch" threads. I'm not sure if they were posted or linked, but I remember one really good comparison with the cars supposed to be to fairly exact scales.

[Mia 01]

Lewis did well yesterday, no doubt.

If he keeps it cool and wont let the Red Mist hit him he can perhaps score big today.

[Mia 01]

Lewis drove well today.

One new sets of tires and he would have maked it.

[UltimateDanGTR]

so near and yet so far for a very good 2nd place for Lewis today. He deserved second but got nohting, but that's racing.

I do however think it's ironic that when things havn't gone his way on the saturday, be it his fault or his teams or bad luck due to weather, he has had it hard on the sunday but got a good result and entertained us at the same time. yet when he makes it easy for himself, he get's nothing in the end.

better luck next time, and he should make sure he's just a touch more conservative with his tyres, he'll be there.


Meanwhile, I think if anything Lewis being 21 points behind in the drivers championship just provides more excitement-he's got more to do now, in a really tight title race between bunsen, fred, and the vet. But we can't count out Rosberg or webber either, and I think we will still have a genuine 4 or 5 horse race come later in the season. (luckily for me, 21 points isnt as much as it used to be aswell!)

[race_director]

i strongly object to his driving today. the exit from the pits. we could have a big accident today involving him, vettel and the other car exiting the PITS.


He clearly did not have the racing line. he cut in vettel's line and pushed him on the run off area.

The car on the race track has the outside line and he should have tucked behind the back marker while exiting the pits. Thats why they show blue flag while exiting the pits. clearly saying that the car on the straight has the right of the racing line

[markabilly]

so near and yet so far for a very good 2nd place for Lewis today. He deserved second but got nohting, but that's racing.

!)
after another one of his pit exits and into vettel again, he derserved nothing and that is what he got

[UltimateDanGTR]

after another one of his pit exits and into vettel again, he derserved nothing and that is what he got

well he could hardly help with di grassi, who was going really slow and so lewis had to go round the outside. then when vettel got alongside on the outside, my first thought was that vettel went off track very easily and that Hamilton wasn't too aggresive and didn't give him much room as he defended his position which i believe was fair racing, however I would like to see it again on you tube to get a second look at it.

[Daniel]

I thought before I logged in, what can they find to criticize Lewis about this week, and surprise, surprise the pit exit.. :laugh:

He could have crashed into the back of the Virgin I suppose. Thats what the other fair drivers would have done, and evil Lewis chose the wrong option it would seem.. :p
So true..... Lewis drove EXTREMELY well in that situation.

[ioan]

Lewis drove well today.

One new sets of tires and he would have maked it.

The tire didn't blew, something else broke on that front suspension/wheel.

[SGWilko]

after another one of his pit exits and into vettel again, he derserved nothing and that is what he got

Yes, it was almost an exact repeat of the pit exit incident at the last race, wasn't it......

......uncanny.

[SGWilko]

The tire didn't blew, something else broke on that front suspension/wheel.

Rim failure, probably caused by trapped debris.

[ioan]

Rim failure, probably caused by trapped debris.

Thanks for the info.
I don't know why the haters came to the conclusion that Lewis had tire problems when it was obvious that it was a mechanical failure.

[SGWilko]

The left front wheel takes the most punishment around Barcelona, and its looking more like rim failure was the problem on Hamiltons car. Oh well, a very disappointing result for a very well driven race IMO.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83481

Have a look at the pic in the article above.

Tyre is not shredded, nor does it appear unduly worn. All that has happened is the tyre has effectively slipped off the damaged rim. This is component failure in the wheel, not the tyre or a cause of excessive wear.

[rohanweb]

Anybody watching could see it was a puncture which* caused him to go off. But no our media plus Hamilton bashing idiots have to have a* bash at him. "Hamilton crashes out because he has been hurting the tyres". Small minded and even* smaller talented hacks! .. also stupid spanish fans glorifying Hamiltons exit was distasteful..

[UltimateDanGTR]

so it WAS a rim failure-good, nothing to do with Hamilton's aggresive driving like I first feared it might have been. really unfortunate in that case for him.

[UltimateDanGTR]

also stupid spanish fans glorifying Hamiltons exit was distasteful..

distasteful for sure...but I've always wondered if something similar would happen if Alonso retired from a race at Silverstone.

[ioan]

.. also stupid spanish fans glorifying Hamiltons exit was distasteful..

I wouldn't expect anything more from them given that a few years ago they were only footie fans, now they are footie and F1 fans, sadly.

[Robinho]

i thought the pit exit was inspired. he exited ahead of Vettel so was right to hold his place, and managed to squeeze past the Virgin without crossing the white line - full marks to Lewis on that occasion - he certainly deserved far more than a trip to the wall today

[UltimateDanGTR]

I wouldn't expect anything more from them given that a few years ago they were only footie fans, now they are footie and F1 fans, sadly.

what's wrong with that? F1 gets some more fans in a country that wasn't really big in the public's mind, and get's bigger attendances on race day than before, because of a great driver who is a national hero, and they add a great atmosphere to the stands at the spanish grand prix?

To me the fans in spain seem passionate and enthusiastic, which is just what F1 needs.

[ioan]

what's wrong with that? F1 gets some more fans in a country that wasn't really big in the public's mind, and get's bigger attendances on race day than before, because of a great driver who is a national hero, and they add a great atmosphere to the stands at the spanish grand prix?

To me the fans in spain seem passionate and enthusiastic, which is just what F1 needs.

You forgot to say that some of them are racist too, but I guess those are details only.

[BDunnell]

You forgot to say that some of them are racist too, but I guess those are details only.

There are probably racist F1 'fans' in many more European countries than Spain, sadly. Even so, I don't think F1 enthusiasm should be confined to a set number of nations, with those who develop such enthusiasms being dismissed.

[Mia 01]

On slowmotion it looks like a puncture. The inside wall of the tyre goes first.

That tyre was worn out.

[Pulidor]

Yeah, we Spanish people are a bunch of hooligan racists, the same way all Romanians are blood suckers. Hence, don't think either of us can enjoy formula one...

Just pa-the-tic.

[ioan]

Yeah, we Spanish people are a bunch of hooligan racists, the same way all Romanians are blood suckers. Hence, don't think either of us can enjoy formula one...

Just pa-the-tic.

Yep, as you said, pathetic answer. IMO you were better off if you just sucked it in and kept silent on this one.

Can you keep a straight face while you deny the racist actions against Lewis at the Spanish races during recent seasons?
And I also mentioned that it's not all Spanish fans but some of them, certainly this little detail went by in your frenzy to find something negative about all the Romanians, and all you could come up is the biggest cliche about vampires!

[ioan]

There are probably racist F1 'fans' in many more European countries than Spain, sadly.

True that, however the others somehow did not manifest themselves in the same way.


Even so, I don't think F1 enthusiasm should be confined to a set number of nations, with those who develop such enthusiasms being dismissed.

Totally agree. Still the line between enthusiasm and schadenfreude is a very thin one and sometimes the actions are difficult to ignore.

Anyway let's go back to Lewis' way of driving, which was excellent today no matter the end result and what some might say.

[Pulidor]

Sorry ioan, I'm not going to keep feeding you. This is going nowhere and you know it :)
I've learnt to ignore your posts (this forum is a nice place after all), but this time I felt a little bit offended by your remarks. Since I guess this approach is not enough I'll add you to the ignore list, and problem solved. We all live happily ever after. Of course, you can feel free to do the same, no problem ;)

Signed: a Hamilton fan who would like to continue reading constructive opinions

[ioan]

Sorry ioan, I'm not going to keep feeding you.

Don't worry I am not a blood sucker Romanian! :p :


This is going nowhere and you know it :)

I knew it when I saw your first reply.


I've learnt to ignore your posts (this forum is a nice place after all), but this time I felt a little bit offended by your remarks.

You shouldn't have had to feel offended as I am sure you were not one of those painting their faces black and other such to make fun of Lewis.


Since I guess this approach is not enough I'll add you to the ignore list, and problem solved. We all live happily ever after. Of course, you can feel free to do the same, no problem ;)


You do as you wish, it's a free world (or at least we like to believe it is).
Right now my ignore list is empty even though I am sometimes tempted to populate it.

[Valve Bounce]

Anybody watching could see it was a puncture which* caused him to go off. But no our media plus Hamilton bashing idiots have to have a* bash at him. "Hamilton crashes out because he has been hurting the tyres". Small minded and even* smaller talented hacks! .. also stupid spanish fans glorifying Hamiltons exit was distasteful..

Well, I could say that, in the same vein, I would cheer if Italy was pinged a penalty when an opponent took a dive, and Italy was eliminated from the World Cup as a result.

It's all about Nationalism and the way the Spaniards perceived that Fernando was unfairly treated at McLaren.

I mean, we even have a Pom here feeling good because Hamilton crashed. :down:

[airshifter]

Bummer for Lewis with his issues, as he did well to hoist that car up into the podium.

As for the pit exit, it was a bit dicey, but IMHO it was an issue caused by the slow car being lapped. Several times during the race the back markers were in the way... which is not a problem until you see just how fast the closure rates are when the front of the pack comes by.

I can see issues at Monaco with the back of the pack cars causing some real problems. I hope they all learn to cope with it.

[markabilly]

yes, i think there is too much over-abundant nationalism in Spain for Fred that goes way over the top to the point of fans being willing to do anything possible to put hamilton down.

I did not like his driving last week nor did I like it this week either.
But i did not like the crash reactions of the fans either. Clear joy was in the air when he crashed. Going off course with a tire or wheel issue is a potentially extremely serious and even fatal accident.

It smacks of racism as it seems to go beyond fun, although I defended the fans in the last big controversy as no one was celebrating this type of accident.

Bottom line, it is probably not racism but extremism where anything possible is tossed in a very mean fashion. The color difference makes it appear racist, but if it were vettel, button or webber who was the one who had been the prior team mate and so forth, then they would be screaming whatever nasty slang terms and curses they could find at vettel, et al,.

I also did not like the reaction of the crowd for the podium either, all for FA and very little respect for Webber or Vettel. (if the skin color of one of those guys was different than people would be calling it racist, but.....)

Do not like webber's style, comments and character for a number of reasons, but the guy drove like a true veteran champion, and deserved better than he got today from the fans.

even if they do not "deserve" the victory, nevertheless it is not accceptable to act you want to go nuts and inflict pain upon the person.

For all fans, this is suppose to be entertaining, fun, enjoyable. I would leave the soccer holigans and holiganism to the those fans and countries that want it, but NOT in F1. Maybe a little kool aid for some of the fans in some countries might not be a bad idea.

[SGWilko]

You forgot to say that some of them are racist too, but I guess those are details only.

I am afraid that is a mere sad reflection on society in general. The UK is certainly not devoid of such detritus. You learn to ignore it and pity such people rather than despise them. After all , they are simply naive.

I would not suggest for one moment that the majority of the Spanish F1 crowd is the same as those morons a few years back who forgot where the shoe polish should be applied.........

In fact, the rivaly betwixt Lewis and Fred is no different to that betwixt Mansell & Senna. ALl good harmless fun for the majority.

[SGWilko]

yes, i think there is too much over-abundant nationalism in Spain for Fred that goes way over the top to the point of fans being willing to do anything possible to put hamilton down.

I did not like his driving last week nor did I like it this week either.
But i did not like the crash reactions of the fans either. Clear joy was in the air when he crashed. Going off course with a tire or wheel issue is a potentially extremely serious and even fatal accident.

It smacks of racism as it seems to go beyond fun, although I defended the fans in the last big controversy as no one was celebrating this type of accident.

Bottom line, it is probably not racism but extremism where anything possible is tossed in a very mean fashion. The color difference makes it appear racist, but if it were vettel, button or webber who was the one who had been the prior team mate and so forth, then they would be screaming whatever nasty slang terms and curses they could find at vettel, et al,.

I also did not like the reaction of the crowd for the podium either, all for FA and very little respect for Webber or Vettel. (if the skin color of one of those guys was different than people would be calling it racist, but.....)

Do not like webber's style, comments and character for a number of reasons, but the guy drove like a true veteran champion, and deserved better than he got today from the fans.

even if they do not "deserve" the victory, nevertheless it is not accceptable to act you want to go nuts and inflict pain upon the person.

For all fans, this is suppose to be entertaining, fun, enjoyable. I would leave the soccer holigans and holiganism to the those fans and countries that want it, but NOT in F1. Maybe a little kool aid for some of the fans in some countries might not be a bad idea.

I take your point, but I think it is no different to the delight on the fans faces when Ayrton ran out of juice in '91 or '92. I think Mansell sensed it could have been uncomfortable for Ayrton, and gave him a lift back, but of course, that is not a llowed now - how nice would it have been if Alonso had stopped for Lewis......?????

It would only be racist if the fans delight was because he is mixed race. If they are delighted because the home favourite gains a place, is that wrong?

Don't tar them (the Spanish crowd) all with the same brush.

[markabilly]

I take your point, but I think it is no different to the delight on the fans faces when Ayrton ran out of juice in '91 or '92. I think Mansell sensed it could have been uncomfortable for Ayrton, and gave him a lift back, but of course, that is not a llowed now - how nice would it have been if Alonso had stopped for Lewis......?????

It would only be racist if the fans delight was because he is mixed race. If they are delighted because the home favourite gains a place, is that wrong?

Don't tar them (the Spanish crowd) all with the same brush.

true enough, and while i previously defended some of them for making fun of his skin color a couple of years ago (and drew the ire of some around here), it is quite different to be running out of gas as distinguished from running into a wall at high speed and fans carrying on.....

like i said, probably not racism as the primary motivation, but it is the worse sort of behavior just the same.

And when somthing like that happens and a driver moves up, it is NOT because the driver was demonstrating superior skill by out running him, he was just lucky

[Mia 01]

It was a TYRE BLOW OUT.

All thoose fastest laps.


http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=48370

[ShiftingGears]

Yep, as you said, pathetic answer. IMO you were better off if you just sucked it in and kept silent on this one.

Can you keep a straight face while you deny the racist actions against Lewis at the Spanish races during recent seasons?
And I also mentioned that it's not all Spanish fans but some of them, certainly this little detail went by in your frenzy to find something negative about all the Romanians, and all you could come up is the biggest cliche about vampires!

I didn't see blacking up as racist, and thought it was quite a beat-up, to be honest.

The joke was in them dressing up as Hamiltons family, wearing 'Alonso #1' T-shirts. That would be no different from Hamilton fans donning accentuated eyebrows and dressing in 'Hamilton #1' shirts.

[Retro Formula 1]

Tyre failure is unlikely to be the primary cause of the incident. McLaren recognised that it was most probably due to a wheel failure straight after the crash and it would be a bit strange to accept responsibility when the fault might not be with them. I hope from their point of view it's not another manufacturing issue and was caused by outside factors such as a stone.

Such a pity because we had another superb performance from Hamilton again. Excellent driving to avoid the Virgin AND keep his place during the pit exit.

Just get the feeling Hamilton is the unluckiest driver on the grid taking Webbers crown.

No matter what "it" is, whether a bedazzling drive, a dubious manoeuvre or a full scale scandal, you just know the young Englishman's name will pop up somewhere. He just seems to be F1 at the moment for all reasons.

As for all this racism nonsense, give it a break. The racists are canvassing the council estates drumming up fear and scaremongering the easily lead. They are not at a F1 race taking the p*ss by blacking up and having a laugh and cheer when their F1 nemesis goes off promoting their favourite Son. Giving credibility to this silliness takes the focus off the real bigots.

[SGWilko]

And when somthing like that happens and a driver moves up, it is NOT because the driver was demonstrating superior skill by out running him, he was just lucky

Maybe, but I see is that as all the more reason to cheer - Hamilton was unhurt in a fairly uneventful off, and the luck given to Alonso was appreciated by the fans....

[Dave B]

That could be perceived as light hearted behaviour, but that wasn't the only action which confirmed the racist element. When Lewis and his father were walking between areas of the paddock, they received loud racist chants which the ITV comentators at the time condemned. It was sickening and suggested quite a large proportion of the crowd had joined in. I also remember Lewis had come close to a 'blackened' chap when signing autographs. Its all forgotten about now and thankfully we haven't seen anything like it since.. :)

PS its not just the Spanish fans, and similar behaviour was seen in Brazil 08, so I would not tar all Spanish fans with the same brush. Its just a handfull of uneducated low life's who bring shame on the perception of those around them.

When I was at Spa in 2008 there was a significant minority of the crowd who made racist chants and even made monkey noises when Hamilton came past. I don't know what nationality they were, but it was extremely sad.

[SGWilko]

When I was at Spa in 2008 there was a significant minority of the crowd who made racist chants and even made monkey noises when Hamilton came past. I don't know what nationality they were, but it was extremely sad.

To quote Macca & Stevie....

"there is good and bad, in everyone"

:)

[ArrowsFA1]

Lewis's choice of wording is not proof for it being a tyre 'blow out' in the sense you are suggesting. He says in the article he doesn't know what caused it. A rim failure can cause a tyre blow out, and the evidence from onboards and pictures of the tyre after the incident suggest the problem came from the rim area. The tyre is intact and not blown apart, so the weakness did not come from the tyre itself IMO.
I thought I saw something breakaway from the tyre rim area a split second before the failure. I haven't seen the footage since, but "something broke" was my first reaction, not tyre failure.

When I was at Spa in 2008 there was a significant minority of the crowd who made racist chants and even made monkey noises when Hamilton came past. I don't know what nationality they were, but it was extremely sad.

1994 at Silverstone we were pelted with bottles as we left because we worked on a Germans car.

[SGWilko]

1994 at Silverstone we were pelted with bottles as we left because we worked on a Germans car.

Bottles and cans were thrown at the 6 cars running at Indy in '05....

[ShiftingGears]

Let's not try to outdo each other - morons are a universal breed, and the ones who go and yell discriminatory chants or throw projectiles at professional sports personnel like infantile retards do respresent the minority of those who attend sports events.

There's no way of preventing it, unfortunately, and sports venues - and indeed people who attend these sport venues - should not be judged by the idiocy of a small minority of attendees.

[SGWilko]

There's no way of preventing it, unfortunately,

Shoot 'em, or castrate 'em!

[markabilly]

Shoot 'em, or castrate 'em!
the latter only raises the pitch of their chanting

[pino]

Back to Hamilton's driving thank you !

[Retro Formula 1]

When I was at Spa in 2008 there was a significant minority of the crowd who made racist chants and even made monkey noises when Hamilton came past. I don't know what nationality they were, but it was extremely sad.

Unfortunately, there are real bigoted w*nkers everywhere from the top of society down and Motor Sport isn't immune but that's not to condemn any mainstream group of fans, or even country, as fundamentally racist.

I think that the style and manner of Hamiltons driving will always attract strong, polarised views.

All I know is that it's bloody exciting and no idiots making monkey noises can stop it.

[race_director]

the authorities there should have thrown out and punished the racist. the world has not place for racist.

Regards to the cheering when he crashed that is a normal thing every f1 fan does when the driver he does not like crashes or retires. I have done it many time in the past . even i did it on sunday .


I am not a racist . i have cheered when Mika crashed on last lap. when JV hit the champions wall. when Hamilton got stuck in gravel. when he pressed the restart button in brazil. and times for many drivers i dont remember. when ever my fav drivers competitor retires from the race.

[Garry Walker]

1994 at Silverstone we were pelted with bottles as we left because we worked on a Germans car.
Funnily enough, the tifosi did the same to Häkkinen at monza and Schumacher fans did the same to him at hockhenheim. There are idiots amongst all groups of people.

[AndyL]

I am not a racist . i have cheered when Mika crashed on last lap. when JV hit the champions wall. when Hamilton got stuck in gravel. when he pressed the restart button in brazil. and times for many drivers i dont remember. when ever my fav drivers competitor retires from the race.

It sounds like you could never be a racist because you have too much hate to restrict it all to one group of people! To me this seems like a very negative way of enjoying your favourite sport.

[Valve Bounce]

It sounds like you could never be a racist because you have too much hate to restrict it all to one group of people! To me this seems like a very negative way of enjoying your favourite sport.

I'd hate to sit next to him in a football match. :eek:

[fandango]

Mea Culpa. I cheered when Hamilton crashed out. It's not because he's black, I just don't like him, and it gifted a lucky second to Alonso, who I like. I wouldn't have wished any injury, and I'm really happy that he's in F1, because he's a very entertaining driver, supremely skillful, who for me happens to be the "baddie", the villain of the piece.

As I see it, that's the way most Spanish F1 supporters view Hamilton. Every story needs a baddie, and for them it's Hamilton. I've explained the alleged racist insults before, so it's not worth going there again (I say explained, not excused) Incidently, if you think those insults were bad, you should have seen the drivers' parade.

It's true that Spanish F1 fans are, for the most part, blinkered. They only see one driver. The British have a different character, and a longer culture of appreciating the nuances of motor racing. They're more fair, passionate in a different. It's worth pointing out, though, that when I read the report on the race in The Times the main story and photo was of Hamilton's crash, with some mention of some Australian guy who crossed the line first. So everyone has blinkers on to some extent. The Spanish are very honest about theirs, ugly as it is sometimes.

I saw a group of Spanish lads all dressed up as Bernie. Wigs glasses, the lot. About six of them. Are they ageist? Bernie-ist?

This post is getting too long and I haven't even got to the point I wanted to make......

[fandango]

....which was about the stewards.

Alonso had a bit of a moan about the fine Ferrari got when they were judged to have made an unsafe release on Saturday. IMO he was wrong, because the judgement was made and that action is penalised.

However, in free practice 3 on Saturday Vettel set the fastest time near the end of the session while a stopped Force India was being attended to by marshalls on the gravel, under a yellow flag. This is against the rules. And Vettel had received a reprimand in the last race. I think it's good that the punishments are less draconian now, but the biggest problem with the stewards is inconsistency, and that has NOT changed at all.

[SGWilko]

Rim failure, probably caused by trapped debris.

Excuse me while I interrupt myself, but......

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83530

[Valve Bounce]

Mea Culpa. I cheered when Hamilton crashed out. It's not because he's black, I just don't like him, and it gifted a lucky second to Alonso, who I like. I wouldn't have wished any injury, and I'm really happy that he's in F1, because he's a very entertaining driver, supremely skillful, who for me happens to be the "baddie", the villain of the piece.

As I see it, that's the way most Spanish F1 supporters view Hamilton. Every story needs a baddie, and for them it's Hamilton. .........

Quite true. I used to hate SchM and was glad whenever he was beaten. But we needed him to be there so we can have a baddie for the goodie that we like to do him in. It certainly made races much more interesting.

[wedge]

My take on OP


I realize this is going to be hotly discussed, but surely Hamilton deserves some kind of real sanction for the way he treats other drivers.

He tried to overtake Vettel coming out of the pits in the pitlane. In the press conference he puts on his best "who me?" innocent face when asked about it, and tries some kind of "I didn't really know he was there" excuse.

He bumped Webber off before the re-start after the safety car.

And, he was given a warning for weaving in the last race. So if someone is given a warning and they continue to do what they're doing, they should be punished, right?

Schumi and Senna had their detractors, tagged as dangerous drivers.

Hamilton is a racer, a very hard one too. There's nothing wrong with it, IMHO, so he's within his right to 'act' as if he did nothing wrong because in his mind he did no wrong, his conscience is clear - no fear.

ko94oniszuA

[Valve Bounce]

and here is the article for the doubters and detractors to read for themselves.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83530

[SGWilko]

and here is the article for the doubters and detractors to read for themselves.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83530

Don't mind me..... ;)


Excuse me while I interrupt myself, but......

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83530

[I am evil Homer]

All I can think of when I see this thread was last year's Hungarian GP - winning in an utter dog of a car. That day marked him as an utterly brilliant driver as much as his first win or WDC.

[Tazio]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/05/11/whitmarsh-rim-failure-put-hamilton-out/


McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh said the team lost second place in the Spanish Grand Prix because of wheel rim failure.

The rim failed on Lewis Hamilton’s car on the penultimate lap of the race, sending him straight into the barriers.
Speaking during the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes phone-in Whitmarsh said the team are still investigating what caused the rim to fail:

We flew the parts back yesterday and had Bridgestone here. We do not believe that the deflation was caused by a puncture or tyre failure. From all the evidence it looks like the rim failed which caused deflation.

The rim failure is being investigated. It could be debris related, it could be an issue of deflection, it could be an issue of tightness or lack of in the wheel nut allowing some flexing.

So what we know is, the rim failed, probably human error somewhere in that process caused that, which led to deflation and the accident.
Martin Whitmarsh

Heikki Kovalainen suffered a similar crash in a McLaren at the same race in 2008.

Hamilton suffered some bad luck on Sunday, simple as that.

It's the first time that I can remember where he hasn't been responsible for causing his own misfortune, so it is an open & shut case of bad luck.

[fandango]

My take on OP



Schumi and Senna had their detractors, tagged as dangerous drivers.

Hamilton is a racer, a very hard one too. There's nothing wrong with it, IMHO, so he's within his right to 'act' as if he did nothing wrong because in his mind he did no wrong, his conscience is clear - no fear.

ko94oniszuA

That video you posted is interesting, because Senna doesn't really answer Stewart's question. It's fair to say the question isn't very well put, but that's because Senna sees the implied criticism and stops it, while being surprised that another champion doesn't have the same perspective. But the point here is that a champion, a racer, does what he does. I agree with that completely.

You have quoted post #1 of this long thread, which I actually wanted to be about the stewards and how the let the racers race, and where they should draw the line. I chose Hamilton as the example because he's the one who gets closest to the limit. He seems to be a magnet these incidents.

As with Senna and Schumacher in the past, the rules are not being clearly and consistently applied.

[Mia 01]

Thats my take on it Wedge. I think abit of competitive arrogance is the sign of a strong driver. Alonso, Schumacher and Hamilton all have it, and I've seen signs of it quite alot lately in Vettel. Drivers should believe they are the best out there...Detractors use it as a tool to bash another driver but thats usually because they fear the mental challenge these drivers bring. Hamilton is building a great reputation where drivers know he doesn't give up easily, and will fight tooth and nail to get a place back. Its driving like this and the doing 'no wrong' mentality which creates a dominant driver. The other three drivers mentioned are also very good at this and its hotting up to be an exciting season.. :)


It shore is, and that´s why so many adore him.

[Valve Bounce]

Don't mind me..... ;)

My Bad!! :(

[markabilly]

So I'm interested to learn if theres a change of opinion of those who were adamant Hamilton's driving style was to blame for his tyre 'blow out'?
Of course, there is a change in opinion. The rim failure was due to the excessive abuse given to it by Hamilton by his overdriving the car as well as excessive and mean spirited bouncing off the curbs that caused the failure....

Happy Now? . :vader:

Well, we could ask for you to admit the number of times that you've been less than factual, but to be honest none of us have that much spare time.

[markabilly]

I am happy you've given me a good laugh.. :p
:D

[markabilly]

Oh behave.. :p
trying to....my big problem right now is trying to figure out exactly how a rim failure on the inside as distinguished from the outside was caused by his obviously bad driving....but if i can not, it does not matter because i still have that reliable basis for my opinion, which is "IMO"

[Valve Bounce]

trying to....my big problem right now is trying to figure out exactly how a rim failure on the inside as distinguished from the outside was caused by his obviously bad driving....but if i can not, it does not matter because i still have that reliable basis for my opinion, which is "IMO"

Termites, that's what caused it - TERMITES

At McLaren they are called "McMites".

We also have them here in Oz, and they are called "Vegemites"