Kubica: "BMW were amateurish"

[ojciec dyrektor]

"When I was the championship leader in 2008, they helped Heidfeld to make up his gap rather than concentrate on me. It was amateurish.

"I knew I had to leave as soon as I could," admitted Kubica.
f1complete.com (http://f1complete.com/2010-news/16682?task=view)

[ioan]

Well well, I was wondering how long before he starts to bash the team who gave him his chance to get into F1. :\ :down:

[ojciec dyrektor]

He started to bash them when he was their driver.

[BDunnell]

I don't like to criticise drivers too much, but I have found Kubica's recent comments rather odd. He's also said something along the lines that he enjoys fighting for points with Renault more than fighting for wins with BMW, if I understood it correctly.

[Garry Walker]

Well well, I was wondering how long before he starts to bash the team who gave him his chance to get into F1. :\ :down:

But you would have to agree that BMW should have concentrated their efforts on Kubica and not on Heidfeld in 2008?

[ioan]

But you would have to agree that BMW should have concentrated their efforts on Kubica and not on Heidfeld in 2008?

They arranged for him to get their and his only F1 win to date, so I fail to see where weren't they fair to him?! What was he expecting?
Have BMW buy him the WDC on a gold plate?

[Garry Walker]

They arranged for him to get their and his only F1 win to date, so I fail to see where weren't they fair to him?! What was he expecting?
Have BMW buy him the WDC on a gold plate?

He would have expected BMW to concentrate the resources on him rather than on Heidfeld who was struggling so much.
It is also so that BMW concentrated too much on 2009, thereby hurting the progress of their 2008 car.
Kubica deserved the Canada win, he was better than Heidfeld. Simple as that.

[pettersolberg29]

Kubica is just whingey. He's always moaning, and never happy with anything. I guarantee that in 2 years time he'll be moaning that his Renault wasn't competitive or that his wing mirrors were 2g too heavy so he couldn't drive the car. I'd hate to have him in my team if I was an F1 boss.

As for Canada 2008, we could argue all day. In my view, if BMW had treated them equally then Heidfeld would have won that race. Fair enough they wanted two different strategies to cover all bases but it seems unfair as Heidfeld was racing better in that particular race but was forced to let Bobby past.

[Garry Walker]

As for Canada 2008, we could argue all day. In my view, if BMW had treated them equally then Heidfeld would have won that race. Fair enough they wanted two different strategies to cover all bases but it seems unfair as Heidfeld was racing better in that particular race but was forced to let Bobby past.
Racing better? Before the SC came (and due to the idiotic SC rules we had then), Heidfeld was 30 seconds behind Kubica. He had also qualified on the 10th position, while Kubica was 2nd.
The right man won, he was simply faster.

[pettersolberg29]

Racing better may have been the wrong phrase. But in that race, Heidfeld was winning the race (fair and square in the rules) and would have done had he not let Kubica through. Possibly not faster, but it's not the fastest that always wins.

[Garry Walker]

Racing better may have been the wrong phrase. But in that race, Heidfeld was winning the race (fair and square in the rules) and would have done had he not let Kubica through. Possibly not faster, but it's not the fastest that always wins.

The only reason why he was leading was because of the stupid SC rules.
I also maintain that he didnt let RK through, Kubica was simply faster at that point.

[pettersolberg29]

Yes, he was only leading because of stupid rules, but he was leading and many wins for many top drivers come because of oddities in rules, or SC periods or other random events. Point is that he was leading.

BMW admitted they asked Heidfeld to let Bob past. Why would they lie? Bob even thanked Nick in a post-race interview for being a good team driver, while Nick looked very, very unhappy. Yes, Kubica was faster, but without letting Kubica past, Heidfeld would have won.

[Garry Walker]

Yes, he was only leading because of stupid rules, but he was leading and many wins for many top drivers come because of oddities in rules, or SC periods or other random events. Point is that he was leading.

BMW admitted they asked Heidfeld to let Bob past.

Quotes?

[pettersolberg29]

No quotes at the moment. I'll search out the old Autosport from that race which I kept and post some tomorrow if you are still interested.

[BDunnell]

He would have expected BMW to concentrate the resources on him rather than on Heidfeld who was struggling so much.
It is also so that BMW concentrated too much on 2009, thereby hurting the progress of their 2008 car.
Kubica deserved the Canada win, he was better than Heidfeld. Simple as that.

This is exactly my recollection of events, too. But I would never say that any winner of any race was undeserving of their victory, unless there was some genuine wrongdoing (i.e. technical infringements) attached.

[ioan]

He would have expected BMW to concentrate the resources on him rather than on Heidfeld who was struggling so much.

Other than Kubica who says that the team didn't concentrate on him?



Kubica deserved the Canada win, he was better than Heidfeld. Simple as that.

Sure that's why he needed the team to ask Heidfeld to let him by. :D

[ratonmacias]

if thats how kubica, who was thiessen´s and rampf´s lovechild, says thanks imagine what jv who wasn`t even wanted to start the 2006 season with bmw thinks?

[Saint Devote]

Bashing Kubica now eh?

Same old message board whingers. You people are just never satisfied unless you are moaning and complaining and criticizing.

Better not otherwise Lewis will jump out of the screen and punch you! He is close friends with the Polish driver outside of the racetrack and rates him very highly. Apparently Ferrari do too.

But then what the hell does Lewis know compared to y'all?!

Have any of you ever done anything that actually requires risk or have you merely sat on your arses and been followers pointing viscious corrosive knarled fingers at those who do - the "bbt's"? [Rhetorical question for the uneducated and requires no answer.]

[pino]

Bashing Kubica now eh?

Same old message board whingers. You people are just never satisfied unless you are moaning and complaining and criticizing.

Better not otherwise Lewis will jump out of the screen and punch you! He is close friends with the Polish driver outside of the racetrack and rates him very highly. Apparently Ferrari do too.

But then what the hell does Lewis know compared to y'all?!

Have any of you ever done anything that actually requires risk or have you merely sat on your arses and been followers pointing viscious corrosive knarled fingers at those who do - the "bbt's"? [Rhetorical question for the uneducated and requires no answer.]


And what Lewis and the rest of your post have to do with this topic ? :confused: How many times do I have to ask to not to take threads off-topic ??? Haven't you read my last post on History Forum ? :mad:

[UltimateDanGTR]

exactly what i was thinking pino. what's lewis got to do with this?

anyway, I think Kubica has a right to have a go at BMW. He was in a position where he was leading the championship about half way through the season. If you are leading the championship at that point you are capable of being champion and should expect your team to fight for the championship and develop the car to make it suitable to do so.

BMW missed a major oppurtunity there IMO, whether BMW gave him his first win and firts gp start and all the rest of it. They decided to concentrate on 2009 instead, which we all know now to be a major mistake, as the car was a dog.

and ofcourse If in 2008 BMW had decided to commit to fighting for the championship with Kubica, or the 2009 car was actually competitive, we would probably see BMW still in F1, recession or no recession.

I'm not saying constantly moaning in the best way to go about things, but i think he has a right on the particular subject this time.

[F1boat]

I agree with Kubica. They should have focused on him and fight for the WDC when they got a sniff. Instead, they decided to focus their efforts on a driver who will likely never win a race, but oh - he is German.
And where are they now?

[havk]

Kubica is just whingey. He's always moaning, and never happy with anything. I guarantee that in 2 years time he'll be moaning that his Renault wasn't competitive or that his wing mirrors were 2g too heavy so he couldn't drive the car. I'd hate to have him in my team if I was an F1 boss.

As for Canada 2008, we could argue all day. In my view, if BMW had treated them equally then Heidfeld would have won that race. Fair enough they wanted two different strategies to cover all bases but it seems unfair as Heidfeld was racing better in that particular race but was forced to let Bobby past.

But Renault F1 boss Eric Boullier and technical director James Allison are talking about Kubica only in good words. Just some links:
http://www.f1technical.net/news/14584
http://www.planet-f1.com/news/18227/6090179/Q-A-with-Renault-s-Allison

Kubica is very demanding from the team but also from himself. He is also sincere and talking directly what he thinks. We see that he is still disappointed by what had happended in 2008. He has the right to be disappointed and I can't understand why the team at that moment didn't concentrated on the fighting for the title.

And about Canadian GP.. Correct me If I am wrong.. Kubica passed Heidfeld one lap after end of the safety car. He planed one more pit stop, while Heidfeld decided not to stop. So in lighter car Kubica was much more faster. Heidfeld was asked to give a position for Kubica. We don't know if Kubica managed to pass him without team orders, maybe yes, maybe no. But he was about 1 sec faster per lap and managed to get enough advantage before his 2nd pit stop. So it wasn't team orders to hand in the win, when the team consider points table, but to give a posistion to the faster car.

[Retro Formula 1]

He has spoken his mind and nice to hear his views rather than some manufactured corporate gobbledy-gook.

BMW did shoot themselves in the foot by not throwing themselves behind him. If they gave him a quick car the year afterwards then there would have been some justification but it was a dog. As far as Kubica see it, he had a realistic chance at the title and they pulled the rug out from under his feet.

If it were me, I would be p*ssed too.

[Dave B]

Kubica may have a point with his comments but its very unprofessional IMO to air this in public.
I disagree. He's left the team, and the team's left the sport, so he doesn't have an opportunity to air his grievences behind closed doors as would normally be proper behaviour. It seems that almost everybody has a negative story about BMW's most recent foray into F1, and Kubica is no exception.

[ArrowsFA1]

BMW did shoot themselves in the foot by not throwing themselves behind him.
IIRC BMW had a (3 year?) plan. Something like year 1 - podiums, year 2- wins, year three - championship. Unfortunately for Kubica him going for the championship didn't fit into the plans for 2008 :crazy:

[Retro Formula 1]

IIRC BMW had a (3 year?) plan. Something like year 1 - podiums, year 2- wins, year three - championship. Unfortunately for Kubica him going for the championship didn't fit into the plans for 2008 :crazy:

Like it. Like it a lot.

[V12]

IIRC BMW had a (3 year?) plan. Something like year 1 - podiums, year 2- wins, year three - championship. Unfortunately for Kubica him going for the championship didn't fit into the plans for 2008 :crazy:

Yep. Although I think it was:

Year 1, 2006 - Points/respectability (achieved)
Year 2, 2007 - Podiums (achieved a year early, but regularly in 2007 too)
Year 3, 2008 - Win(s) (achieved in Canada)
Year 4, 2009 - Championship (*makes noises of toilet flushing, etc. you get the idea*)

Motor sport, like any sport, is cyclical, you will suffer peaks and troughs and you can't make these sort of rigid plans, yes you should keep progressing, but so will your rivals!

As for Kubica, I don't actively root for him but I do have a lot of time for him as a person. For instance he was one of the few to speak out against the absurd "Two days before the day after tomorrow" style panic after Bahrain didn't turn out to be the slipstreaming wheel-to-wheel thriller that we're apparently supposed to expect.

[jens]

There tends to be a lot of black-and-whitish opinions about matters in F1. And I think BMW's decision to concentrate early on 2009 is one of them. I don't think it's as simple as people like to draw it. IMO one of the important reasons was that the 2008 car was actually quite complicated, hard to set up and the development potential of it had reached pretty much an end - in terms of appearance the car seemed to have more winglets than anyone else. As we recall, BMW unveiled quite an aggressive car for 2008, while their 2009 challenger was quite conservative (perhaps too conservative?) just to have a good basis for long-term development and avoid hitting stagnation (which they managed with their 06-07 evolutionary cars). It looks like Sauber has made another turnaround for 2010 and the C29 is quite radical - and as we see, they suddenly don't fully understand, why the car isn't as quick as they expected it to be.

Let me put it simply: BMW would not have won the 2008 titles in any way, regardless of their decision to keep developing or not. They knew it, hence the decision. That 2009 didn't turn out quite as they expected, well that's another story...

[havk]

I don't follow the F1 board that much, so perhaps someone can explain this to me.

How exactly is the team supposed to focus on one driver? Are they going to increase his skills or feel for the car? His racecraft? How he feels when he gets out of bed on a particular race morning?

Or is it the team's job to build the car and make the car as fast as possible? Aren't the two cars the team fields in every race essentially the same? Set ups different, yes. And perhaps one driver gets the latest development bits before the other. It's the same basic car though, right?

Crybaby drivers are a waste of everyone's time. He needs to find another profession. Of course, he'd be a crybaby there too. :p

I don't have a wisdom how f1 team function, but I think it's more much complicated than simple statement "they have the same cars". Team can build a car which fits more one driver than second, follow remarks given by one driver rather than second one, concentrate on solving problems of one driver etc. I read somewhere in the press that in 2008 Heidfeld had big problems in qualifying due to tyres performance, maybe they concentrated on this? Many, many times I heard drivers opinions that team support more on one driver than second. As I said before I don't have a knowledge how f1 team functions maybe somone who works/used to work in F1 team could explain it to us.

I don't think people from Renault consider Kubica as a crybaby and "waste of time" after how he performs (2nd in Australia, 4th in Malayisa, just 9 points less than leader in championship standings) this year...

[Garry Walker]

No quotes at the moment. I'll search out the old Autosport from that race which I kept and post some tomorrow if you are still interested.
I am.




Sure that's why he needed the team to ask Heidfeld to let him by. :D

Proof?


Besides, even if BMW did ask Heidfeld to let Kubica through, it was only normal. Teammates who are on different strategies have been doing that forever. I remember Schumacher and Barrichello doing it several times. If Kubica had not gotten past Heidfeld, they simply would not have taken 1-2 finish. That said, I still have yet to see proof that Heidfeld was told to let Kubica through.

[truefan72]

Kubica is just whingey. He's always moaning, and never happy with anything. I guarantee that in 2 years time he'll be moaning that his Renault wasn't competitive or that his wing mirrors were 2g too heavy so he couldn't drive the car. I'd hate to have him in my team if I was an F1 boss.

As for Canada 2008, we could argue all day. In my view, if BMW had treated them equally then Heidfeld would have won that race. Fair enough they wanted two different strategies to cover all bases but it seems unfair as Heidfeld was racing better in that particular race but was forced to let Bobby past.

pretty much how I see it

[truefan72]

And what Lewis and the rest of your post have to do with this topic ? :confused: How many times do I have to ask to not to take threads off-topic ??? Haven't you read my last post on History Forum ? :mad:

:up:

[Josti]

What's wrong with someone who speaks his mind? There's almost constant critizism on this board too, so why can't he.

And I kind of agree too, Kubica's WDC chances in 2008 had far greater potential than the ultimate result. Maybe he should have quit BMW after 2008, but I guess he didn't had much choise. He probably didn't expect such a poor 2009 car either.

Kubica may have a point with his comments but its very unprofessional IMO to air this in public.

And other drivers who berate their team in public are unprofessional too?

Because I can think of one, who criticised his team in Australia, who you didn't voice such concerns about. You remember, don't you? I'll give you a clue....He queried who gave him a "freaking terrible" strategy.

Not to mention Prost calling the 1991 Ferrari "a dog" (note to the non-factual : Mansell never drove the car Prost referred to, and he actually called it "a truck") and being sacked for it, or him criticising Renault in 1983 for not developing the engine as well as BMW and being sacked for it.

It may have been considered "unprofessional" by his employers, but on both occasions he was absolutely right.

As is Kubica.

[ioan]

I agree with Kubica. They should have focused on him and fight for the WDC when they got a sniff. Instead, they decided to focus their efforts on a driver who will likely never win a race, but oh - he is German.
And where are they now?

Kubica only ever won a race because the said German team decide to favor him over the said German driver. Facts do not support your theory.

[ioan]

What's wrong with someone who speaks his mind? didn't had much choise. He probably didn't expect such a poor 2009 car either.

Nothing as long as what he speaks isn't a bloody lie that is meant to make him look great while trashing those who brought him in F1 , gifted him a win that he could not win on his own and paid him a fortune to bad mouth them.

[BDunnell]

And other drivers who berate their team in public are unprofessional too?

Because I can think of one, who criticised his team in Australia, who you didn't voice such concerns about. You remember, don't you? I'll give you a clue....He queried who gave him a "freaking terrible" strategy.

Not to mention Prost calling the 1991 Ferrari "a dog" (note to the non-factual : Mansell never drove the car Prost referred to, and he actually called it "a truck") and being sacked for it, or him criticising Renault in 1983 for not developing the engine as well as BMW and being sacked for it.

It may have been considered "unprofessional" by his employers, but on both occasions he was absolutely right.

As is Kubica.

I have to agree with you, although I still consider it strange that Kubica should say how much more enjoyable it is fighting for points rather than wins. This is something I couldn't imagine a top-line driver such as Prost ever having done.

[BDunnell]

Kubica only ever won a race because the said German team decide to favor him over the said German driver. Facts do not support your theory.

Have you somehow been privy to the internal communications within BMW regarding this apparent conspiracy, then? I don't doubt that such things happen, but stating it as genuine, absolute, indisputable fact is taking things way too far.

[Mark in Oshawa]

He has spoken his mind and nice to hear his views rather than some manufactured corporate gobbledy-gook.

BMW did shoot themselves in the foot by not throwing themselves behind him. If they gave him a quick car the year afterwards then there would have been some justification but it was a dog. As far as Kubica see it, he had a realistic chance at the title and they pulled the rug out from under his feet.

If it were me, I would be p*ssed too.

Realistically they were not going to win a championship. Kubica is a good driver, not a great one. Full stop. He also has gone out of his way to take a shot at the old management of a team that is now not in the sport.

The message he just basically told the f1 world is that he doesn't take ownership for his own failures, and he will bad mouth anyone in the sport based on his lack of success.

You can be right, and he may be in this case, but there is something to be said by just keeping one's mouth shut until after he retires. IF I am looking for a driver, I am not going to hire a guy who will blame me if he doesn't do as well as he thinks he should. In short, why pay a guy to slag you 3 years later?

Besides, he had no problem with how BMW was run when they dumped JV to let him drive. I guess they were discriminating against him then too?

[Sonic]

Now I'm all for a bit of BMW bashing as they represented everything wrong with F1 in the manufacturer era, but I do think Robert is being a touch unfair.

They gave you your break into the sport and provided you with your first (and so far only) victory. Yes, they didn't agree with pushing for 2008's title, and yes with hindsight that was a mistake its bad form to slag people who only ever did their best by you.

[ioan]

Have you somehow been privy to the internal communications within BMW regarding this apparent conspiracy, then? I don't doubt that such things happen, but stating it as genuine, absolute, indisputable fact is taking things way too far.

Those who got eyes can see things and judge by themselves, the others will always feel smarter asking for impossible things, like you do.

[ioan]

Realistically they were not going to win a championship. Kubica is a good driver, not a great one. Full stop. He also has gone out of his way to take a shot at the old management of a team that is now not in the sport.

The message he just basically told the f1 world is that he doesn't take ownership for his own failures, and he will bad mouth anyone in the sport based on his lack of success.

You can be right, and he may be in this case, but there is something to be said by just keeping one's mouth shut until after he retires. IF I am looking for a driver, I am not going to hire a guy who will blame me if he doesn't do as well as he thinks he should. In short, why pay a guy to slag you 3 years later?

Besides, he had no problem with how BMW was run when they dumped JV to let him drive. I guess they were discriminating against him then too?

Well put.

[ioan]

Yes, they didn't agree with pushing for 2008's title, and yes with hindsight that was a mistake...

A mistake? They were not fast enough to win the 2008 championship, and Kubica is not Hamilton nor Massa level when it comes to speed and consistency, he was either inconsistently fast or consistently slow.

The gifted win had a strange effect on him and somehow he all of a sudden believed he is a world beater.

Sure the 2009 BMW didn't turn out to be a world beater, but they wouldn't have won the 2088 championship as both McLaren and Ferrari pushed until the end of the season and were the whole season ahead. The BMW management knew what their limitations are in terms of development speed against McLaren and Ferrari and also that their only chance to beat them in the future was to get a jump on them in the development stakes, so they tried the scenario that was most plausible.

[BDunnell]

Those who got eyes can see things and judge by themselves, the others will always feel smarter asking for impossible things, like you do.

ioan, I hope you get as much pleasure and amusement from coming out with such gems as we do from reading them. Please don't tell me you believe in everything you write — it would really spoil our fun.

[BDunnell]

The gifted win had a strange effect on him

So, you are now his psychiatrist as well as being privy to internal BMW documents, are you?

[F1boat]

Set ups different, yes.

Yes and this means a lot. All cars are similar in IRL for example, but set-up...
And if you have one guy who can fight for the championship and other who is trying to improve from low to mid points and they require developments of the car which are fundamentally different, you go with the guy fighting for the WDC IMO.

[F1boat]

The gifted win had a strange effect on him


Pity that your fave Nick will likely never know that strange effect.

[ioan]

Pity that your fave Nick will likely never know that strange effect.

That's normal he's a down top Earth person, unlike the Pole.

[Sonic]

A mistake? They were not fast enough to win the 2008 championship, and Kubica is not Hamilton nor Massa level when it comes to speed and consistency, he was either inconsistently fast or consistently slow.


When I watched that season it reminded me a lot of HHF in the '99 Jordan. If you want to win the title you've got to be in it to win it - and through a strange series of events (MS out, Eddie and Mika seeming determined to give the championship away) Frentzen managed to stay in the points race much longer than that car deserved. Because they had a shot Jordan kept pushing and were rewarded with a late season victory - that's all Kubica wanted, a chance - and he wasn't given it.

Now you could argue that by pushing so hard Jordan suffered a weak 2000 as a result but as there is no such thing as a crystal ball you have to fight for the title you are involved in.

as there is no such thing as a crystal ball you have to fight for the title you are involved in.

100% correct.

[havk]

Nothing as long as what he speaks isn't a bloody lie that is meant to make him look great while trashing those who brought him in F1 , gifted him a win that he could not win on his own and paid him a fortune to bad mouth them.

Based on what you claim what he said is a lie? You were working in BMW Sauber in 2008 and know better? If I were you I'd think twice before accusing sb of lying.

[F1boat]

That's normal he's a down top Earth person, unlike the Pole.

also, unlike the Pole, he is not a race winner :)

[jens]

Because they had a shot Jordan kept pushing and were rewarded with a late season victory - that's all Kubica wanted, a chance - and he wasn't given it.



Kubica got a chance, he stayed in the game until as late as the penultimate race of the season. And he got some good results in the process even late in the season (P2 at Fuji). I highly doubt Kubica could have been in any better position to win the title than he in reality was. BMW knew this. Okay, maybe a few more additional points and P3 in WDC instead of P4, but that's it.

[BDunnell]

Now you could argue that by pushing so hard Jordan suffered a weak 2000 as a result but as there is no such thing as a crystal ball you have to fight for the title you are involved in.

Excellent point, unlike some here.

[ioan]

Based on what you claim what he said is a lie? You were working in BMW Sauber in 2008 and know better? If I were you I'd think twice before accusing sb of lying.

Based on what I saw and based on the FACT that BMW are a highly respected organization, not amateurs as Kubica describes them.

[ioan]

also, unlike the Pole, he is not a race winner :)

It wouldn't make no difference as he isn't some eastern born complexed guy either, unlike Kubica.

[F1boat]

Based on what I saw and based on the FACT that BMW are a highly respected organization, not amateurs as Kubica describes them.

BMW is a great organization with great vehicles, but maybe their F1 team was not the best.

[Retro Formula 1]

BMW is a great organization with great vehicles, but maybe their F1 team was not the best.

I agree. The F1 team was wanting.

To answer Mark from Canada, I don't know if Kubica would have won and suspect he wouldn't have. The point I was trying to make was that when BMW gave up on the car, he was right in the middle of the hunt with a realistic chance of winning. Not an outside, mathematical one but was in the hunt.

I suspect Kubica is a lot better than a lot of people think. I would put him in the top 4 with Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton but this is just opinion.

His frustration is understandable and I really don't mind drivers speaking their mind or trying to break tows or playing mind games with their team mates. Rather that than politically correct, zero risk manufactured racing which the FIA wants to impose on us.

[markabilly]

Yes and this means a lot. All cars are similar in IRL for example, but set-up...
And if you have one guy who can fight for the championship and other who is trying to improve from low to mid points and they require developments of the car which are fundamentally different, you go with the guy fighting for the WDC IMO.
That does make sense.....unlike much of the rest here of battling....

BTW, Button clearly loves understeer, not oversteer and does not like twitchy cars, MS and hamilton do like oversteer...so who do you set the car up for? same with the Kube vs Heidfeldt. I do not think they like the same exact car set-up, and that can make a big difference. And the Kube had a shot at the WDC, and then beemer goes off worrying about next year....essentially putting kaput to his chances

Why not moan and groan???

[havk]

Based on what I saw and based on the FACT that BMW are a highly respected organization, not amateurs as Kubica describes them.

Could you describe what did you saw? In fact Kubica didn't describe the whole BMW Sauber team as "amateurish", the title of the artice is misleading.

He just said: "When I was the championship leader in 2008, they helped Heidfeld to make up his gap rather than concentrate on me. It was amateurish."

My guess is that: after Kubica's win BMW achieved main aim on the season. They have never believed he could win the title in 2008, the gap between BMW Sauber and McLaren and Ferrari was too big. So they (BMW Sauber) decided to concentrate on next year and besides they were rather more keen on helping Heidfeld than to support Kubica in his weak chances battle for the title. Kubica probably expected team to fully support him for this aim, therefore he was frustrated. It wasn't first time Kubica spoke about this. I found an article from september 2008 (in Polish language) in which he said the same. Also in this article are some statistics about testing. From Canadian GP to Belgian GP Kubica did 496 laps, Heidfeld 717, while from car presentation to Canadian GP it was 1718 to 1639 respectively. I think it says something about team decisions after Canadian GP.

[ojciec dyrektor]

It wouldn't make no difference as he isn't some eastern born complexed guy either, unlike Kubica.
That is so childish that I can't stop laugh. On what basis You think Kubica is complexed guy?

Kubica's never said anything wrong about another person, only about strategies or treatment in his team, unlike You. You are rude Ioan.

[ioan]

BMW is a great organization with great vehicles, but maybe their F1 team was not the best.

Especially that the F1 team was made up by people from BMW motorsport an organization with as much pedigree as any other motorsport organization around.

[ioan]

That is so childish that I can't stop laugh.

Be my guest.


On what basis You think Kubica is complexed guy?

Based on his comments along the years, based on the way he throws teh toys out of the pram every time he feels that he isn't the center of the attention of his team


Kubica's never said anything wrong about another person,

Only about a bunch of people at once, how nice of him.


You are rude Ioan.

Well, I am not here for you to like me.

[ioan]

In fact Kubica didn't describe the whole BMW Sauber team as "amateurish", the title of the artice is misleading.

He just said: "When I was the championship leader in 2008, they helped Heidfeld to make up his gap rather than concentrate on me. It was [b]amateurish[b]."

Looks like he did just that by describing their acts as amateurish he makes them amateurish. Sure you can deny it even if it's in your own post, it's up to you.

[BDunnell]

Especially that the F1 team was made up by people from BMW motorsport an organization with as much pedigree as any other motorsport organization around.

But one which is not infallible.

[ioan]

But one which is not infallible.

Sure, no one is, but calling them amateurish just shows how amateurish Kubica is after all they did for him.

IMO BMW's biggest mistake was to sign the cry baby Kubica is instead of trying harder to buy out Vettel's contract from RedBull, but this is another story.

[F1boat]

Especially that the F1 team was made up by people from BMW motorsport an organization with as much pedigree as any other motorsport organization around.

Really? What so impressive has BMW achieved in motorsports? Compare them to Mercedes-Benz for example. Or, to Renault?

[ioan]

Really? What so impressive has BMW achieved in motorsports? Compare them to Mercedes-Benz for example. Or, to Renault?

Are you for real?

[BDunnell]

Are you for real?

Why not answer the question rather than launching into one of your typical attacks? In what factual, as opposed to opinion-based, sense does BMW enjoy motorsport superiority over Mercedes? I realise why this is a difficult question for you to answer, being historical, but do try.

[rohanweb]

Bashing Kubica now eh?

Same old message board whingers. You people are just never satisfied unless you are moaning and complaining and criticizing.

Better not otherwise Lewis will jump out of the screen and punch you! He is close friends with the Polish driver outside of the racetrack and rates him very highly. Apparently Ferrari do too.

But then what the hell does Lewis know compared to y'all?!

Have any of you ever done anything that actually requires risk or have you merely sat on your arses and been followers pointing viscious corrosive knarled fingers at those who do - the "bbt's"? [Rhetorical question for the uneducated and requires no answer.]

irrelevent lewis bashing in your post my friend, i thought we are talking about Robert Kubica

[rohanweb]

Kubica's comments only made him look stupid and I wonder what his current Boss at renault think about him ? idiot

[F1boat]

Why not answer the question rather than launching into one of your typical attacks? In what factual, as opposed to opinion-based, sense does BMW enjoy motorsport superiority over Mercedes? I realise why this is a difficult question for you to answer, being historical, but do try.

Or Renault, for that matter. Let's compare them as engine suppliers and solo teams in F1, why not?

[ioan]

Why not answer the question rather than launching into one of your typical attacks?

I was not going to do a motorsport history lesson to an ignorant.


In what factual, as opposed to opinion-based, sense does BMW enjoy motorsport superiority over Mercedes?

I never claimed that BMW enjoys motorsport superiority over Mercedes, where did you read that?
Please do show me, or just acknowledge that you are making things up, like always. I am curious how will you twist this one because here's what I posted, in plain English:

Especially that the F1 team was made up by people from BMW motorsport an organization with as much pedigree as any other motorsport organization around.


I realise why this is a difficult question for you to answer, being historical, but do try.

It is not difficult at all, I just don't have time to keep motorsport history lesson for people like f1boiat who have no clue about motorsport teams like BMW and besides this Google was free last time I checked.

Also Ben, please don't mix in each and every of my discussions just to try to bash me, it makes you look foolish, just like yesterday and now this one.

[ioan]

Or Renault, for that matter. Let's compare them as engine suppliers and solo teams in F1, why not?

Motorsport is way larger than F1.

Here's for a good start, but it's rather incomplete:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_in_motorsport


Now you support Kubica's view for whatever reason, so please prove me that BMW is an amateurish organization compared to Renault or Mercedes.

Tell me please which team has been accused for asking their driver to crash 2 years ago in Singapore?! Not BMW.

Which team was accused for using Ferrari's stolen plans in 2007? Not BMW.

BMW went about their business in the best way for the team not for only one of their employees and that proves professionalism.

I rest my case.

[havk]

[

Looks like he did just that by describing their acts as amateurish he makes them amateurish. Sure you can deny it even if it's in your own post, it's up to you.

He didn't use phrase "BMW is amateruish" so I think it shouldn't be quoted as it change what he meant. Phrase "BMW is amateurish" suggests as he was referring to the team as a whole, while he criticsed them only on one particular matter. I see the diffrence, it's up to you if you don't.

You didn't comment on this:


From Canadian GP to Belgian GP Kubica did 496 laps, Heidfeld 717, while from car presentation to Canadian GP it was 1718 to 1639 respectively. I think it says something about team decisions after Canadian GP.

Looks like Kubica have a point in what he said - are you still accusing him of lying? Cause number of laps done by Nick and Robert after Canadian GP indicates that team was concentrating on Nick.

[ojciec dyrektor]

Based on his comments along the years, based on the way he throws teh toys out of the pram every time he feels that he isn't the center of the attention of his team

Well Ioan, whenever on this forum is a thread about Kubica You criticize him regardless of a subject. Based on what You wrote, maybe it is You who is complexed? Maybe You envy his fame and skills. But don't worry, someday there will be Romanian driver in F1, too. :D

[tintop]

Could you describe what did you saw? In fact Kubica didn't describe the whole BMW Sauber team as "amateurish", the title of the artice is misleading.

He just said: "When I was the championship leader in 2008, they helped Heidfeld to make up his gap rather than concentrate on me. It was amateurish."

My guess is that: after Kubica's win BMW achieved main aim on the season. They have never believed he could win the title in 2008, the gap between BMW Sauber and McLaren and Ferrari was too big. So they (BMW Sauber) decided to concentrate on next year and besides they were rather more keen on helping Heidfeld than to support Kubica in his weak chances battle for the title. Kubica probably expected team to fully support him for this aim, therefore he was frustrated. It wasn't first time Kubica spoke about this. I found an article from september 2008 (in Polish language) in which he said the same. Also in this article are some statistics about testing. From Canadian GP to Belgian GP Kubica did 496 laps, Heidfeld 717, while from car presentation to Canadian GP it was 1718 to 1639 respectively. I think it says something about team decisions after Canadian GP.

Excellent factual points, don't bother with the troll.

[F1boat]

Motorsport is way larger than F1.

Here's for a good start, but it's rather incomplete:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_in_motorsport


Now you support Kubica's view for whatever reason, so please prove me that BMW is an amateurish organization compared to Renault or Mercedes.

Tell me please which team has been accused for asking their driver to crash 2 years ago in Singapore?! Not BMW.

Which team was accused for using Ferrari's stolen plans in 2007? Not BMW.

BMW went about their business in the best way for the team not for only one of their employees and that proves professionalism.

I rest my case.

And Renault is still racing, while BMW is no more. Renault has two championships, BMW 1 win. Actually, in its strongest year BMW scored less wins than Renault.
And beyond F1. Renault had great rally cars and solid tourer with the Laguna. BMW had only success in touring cars and still are not dominant there, they even don't have the guts to face Audi and Merc in DTM.
BTW, I respect them as an organization and they have both great cars and great success in motorsports. But are they one of the best in motorsports?
NO.

[veeten]

Motorsport is way larger than F1.

But, it's the F1 team that's central to the topic of discussion.


Here's for a good start, but it's rather incomplete:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_in_motorsport

and, here's the complete part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Sauber

think you could stay within the lines, sir? ;)

[ioan]

But, it's the F1 team that's central to the topic of discussion.

If it's about F1 than let's say that at F1 level, if we compare the numbers, the only teams that count are Ferrari, Williams and McLaren.

Only that the F1 BMW team was the BMW motorsport in Munchen, still I am not losing any sleep over the obvious lack of knowledge of the supporters of a driver who talks like that about the ones who invested in him, time money and belief.

I've said all that I had to say about this subject. The armchair specialists can continue the BMW bash fest without worries.

[Sleeper]

I'm surprised this thread has gone as far as it has, I thought it was common knowledge that Kubica was pissed at loosing a chance to o for the 2008 title because of BMW switching concentration to the 09 car and helping Heidfeld with his qualy problems.

And because I can guess what Ioan is going to say, here's the facts as I see them from that year.

Overtaking after halfway almost impossible because of the ludicrus amount of marbles off line (Alonso crashed because he was a couple cm off line and into the marbles). Heidfeld and Kubica were on different strategies and Kubica was faster because he was much lighter. BMW knew that they were going to loose a near certain 1-2 finish if Heidfeld didnt let Kubica through. I distinctly remember the radio transmition being aired telling Heidfeld, in a round about way, to let Kubica through. After that Rob was fast enough to make his strategy work, Heidfeld wasnt, but it got the team a 1-2 instead of a 1-3/4.

BMW made no secret of the fact that after the Canada win they considered there goals for 08 complete. Despite Kubica leading the championship, they decided to switch development focus onto the 09 car in an attempt to get a head start on the rest with the new rules. They also made no secret to the fact that the only development being done on the 08 car after Canada was to help Heidfeld with his Qualifying problems (he couldnt get the heat into the tyres).

The result of this was that the BMW fell away from the pace of the McLaren and Ferrari towards the end of the year, being overtaken by the Renault and matched by the Torro Rosso and even the Toyota. Kubica knew that the BMW wasnt going to be as fast as the Mac and Ferrari, but they were both giving away points like free sweets, but he was no longer able to take advantage of that properly because there were other cars ahead of him doing so. Also, BMW started making a number of operational errors with wrongly pressured tyres (I think this happened in 2 or 3 races) and he lost a certain podium and maybe even the win in the Chinese GP that year to mechanical failure (he was in the lead when the car failed).

Kubica felt (and I completely agree with him) that BMW gave up on a strong chance to go for a title for a possible title push the following year despite the fact that with the raft of new rules nobody knew what to expect. Given how the second half of 08 went, I think he's got every right to be pissed at BMW.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I agree. The F1 team was wanting.

To answer Mark from Canada, I don't know if Kubica would have won and suspect he wouldn't have. The point I was trying to make was that when BMW gave up on the car, he was right in the middle of the hunt with a realistic chance of winning. Not an outside, mathematical one but was in the hunt.

I suspect Kubica is a lot better than a lot of people think. I would put him in the top 4 with Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton but this is just opinion.

His frustration is understandable and I really don't mind drivers speaking their mind or trying to break tows or playing mind games with their team mates. Rather that than politically correct, zero risk manufactured racing which the FIA wants to impose on us.

He might be a top 4 guy, but if no one wants to work with his prickly attitude, then it wont matter.

You think BMW sabotaged his efforts? I think they pushed as fast as they could go, and gave him the best they had. It didn't happen, and they can both share the blame.

Kubica is good..not great. Until he starts winning in substandard cars, I wont say great...

I'm surprised this thread has gone as far as it has, I thought it was common knowledge that Kubica was pissed at loosing a chance to o for the 2008 title because of BMW switching concentration to the 09 car and helping Heidfeld with his qualy problems.

And because I can guess what Ioan is going to say, here's the facts as I see them from that year.

Overtaking after halfway almost impossible because of the ludicrus amount of marbles off line (Alonso crashed because he was a couple cm off line and into the marbles). Heidfeld and Kubica were on different strategies and Kubica was faster because he was much lighter. BMW knew that they were going to loose a near certain 1-2 finish if Heidfeld didnt let Kubica through. I distinctly remember the radio transmition being aired telling Heidfeld, in a round about way, to let Kubica through. After that Rob was fast enough to make his strategy work, Heidfeld wasnt, but it got the team a 1-2 instead of a 1-3/4.

BMW made no secret of the fact that after the Canada win they considered there goals for 08 complete. Despite Kubica leading the championship, they decided to switch development focus onto the 09 car in an attempt to get a head start on the rest with the new rules. They also made no secret to the fact that the only development being done on the 08 car after Canada was to help Heidfeld with his Qualifying problems (he couldnt get the heat into the tyres).

The result of this was that the BMW fell away from the pace of the McLaren and Ferrari towards the end of the year, being overtaken by the Renault and matched by the Torro Rosso and even the Toyota. Kubica knew that the BMW wasnt going to be as fast as the Mac and Ferrari, but they were both giving away points like free sweets, but he was no longer able to take advantage of that properly because there were other cars ahead of him doing so. Also, BMW started making a number of operational errors with wrongly pressured tyres (I think this happened in 2 or 3 races) and he lost a certain podium and maybe even the win in the Chinese GP that year to mechanical failure (he was in the lead when the car failed).

Kubica felt (and I completely agree with him) that BMW gave up on a strong chance to go for a title for a possible title push the following year despite the fact that with the raft of new rules nobody knew what to expect. Given how the second half of 08 went, I think he's got every right to be pissed at BMW.

Agree with that.

[janneppi]

Kubica felt (and I completely agree with him) that BMW gave up on a strong chance to go for a title for a possible title push the following year despite the fact that with the raft of new rules nobody knew what to expect. Given how the second half of 08 went, I think he's got every right to be pissed at BMW.
Kubica obviously looks things from his own perspective (as he should)
If you look at it from the teams perspective, it's not so simple. If they knew they wouldn't get a winner out of the 08 car it would make sense to develope 09 car earlier, especially with lot's of rule changes. They failed of course, but that wasn't the plan when BMW made the decision. :) Nor could they foresee 08 season's shenanigans.

If you look at teams in 09 like Hond/Brawn compared to Ferrari or McLaren, BMW made the right decision, it's just that they failed badly, had BMW's 09 car been a winner, I doubt Kubica would complain as much. ;)

[Sleeper]

Kubica obviously looks things from his own perspective (as he should)
If you look at it from the teams perspective, it's not so simple. If they knew they wouldn't get a winner out of the 08 car it would make sense to develope 09 car earlier, especially with lot's of rule changes. They failed of course, but that wasn't the plan when BMW made the decision. :) Nor could they foresee 08 season's shenanigans.

If you look at teams in 09 like Hond/Brawn compared to Ferrari or McLaren, BMW made the right decision, it's just that they failed badly, had BMW's 09 car been a winner, I doubt Kubica would complain as much. ;)
I still reckon that if you're in a title fight you should go for it, whether you're the underdog or not, because there is no guarantee that you will be in that position again. It cant be very inspiring for the drivers either.

Mind you, rumours were that BMW were always going to pull out after they won the title, and Theissen loved being an F1 team boss too much to speed that process up. (Not sure how much truth there is in that rumour, but it wouldnt surprise me since they did it in Sports Cars.)

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think BMW did botch some aspects of their efforts, but I just watch what Kubica says, and I am left with the thinking that it is NEVER his fault. I am still of the mindset that you never publically badmouth a team or manufacturer even if they maybe deserve it. You just look like a prima donna, and while in F1 that is most of the field, most keep it in some sort of control.

Kubica isn't the next Ayrton Senna, and Ayrton never tongue lashed a former employer like this....

[speeddurango]

While at the same time that was quite an offensive remark to your old employer and should never be said, but since it had been mentioned, it seems odd also that BMW would actually do such a thing if it were true of what Kubica said. It does sound like the BMW team had a weird team culture to start with.

[jens]

Also, BMW started making a number of operational errors with wrongly pressured tyres (I think this happened in 2 or 3 races) and he lost a certain podium and maybe even the win in the Chinese GP that year to mechanical failure (he was in the lead when the car failed).


Kubica retired from the lead in China in 2007, not '08. I don't really remember BMW throwing points away. Only in Brazil Kubica was strangely uncompetitive. But Fuji (2nd), Valencia (3rd), Monza (3rd) showed that BMW was still a force. I doubt they would have done much better with proper development.

[SGWilko]

But Fuji (2nd), Valencia (3rd), Monza (3rd) showed that BMW was still a force. I doubt they would have done much better with proper development.

Three wins perhaps?

[jens]

Three wins perhaps?

I explained it earlier, why I think BMW abandoned their car development during 2008. In this case I suspect you are seriously overestimating BMW's in-season development ability by expecting them to overhaul Ferrari and McLaren. Actually already before Canada BMW was dropping backwards. In Malaysia and Bahrain they had been faster than McLaren, but by Spain and Turkey they had already become gradually slower. It was visibly seen that they were struggling to keep up with the big boys, so I wouldn't have expected them to suddenly start winning races late in the season.

[Mia 01]

Amateurish?

I belive Kubica was selfish.

Well thats one common part of racing drivers.

[ioan]

Kubica retired from the lead in China in 2007, not '08. I don't really remember BMW throwing points away. Only in Brazil Kubica was strangely uncompetitive. But Fuji (2nd), Valencia (3rd), Monza (3rd) showed that BMW was still a force. I doubt they would have done much better with proper development.

2nd at Fuji was just the result of Hamilton taking out half the field in the first corner.

[Sleeper]

Kubica retired from the lead in China in 2007, not '08. I don't really remember BMW throwing points away. Only in Brazil Kubica was strangely uncompetitive. But Fuji (2nd), Valencia (3rd), Monza (3rd) showed that BMW was still a force. I doubt they would have done much better with proper development.

Woops wrong China race, sorry. However if the development had been kept up Kubica would have won in Fuji and maybe been on the the pace in Singapore and France.

[jens]

Woops wrong China race, sorry. However if the development had been kept up Kubica would have won in Fuji and maybe been on the the pace in Singapore and France.

France was just one race after Canada - I doubt much had changed in the pecking order by then. At Singapore Kubica got a drive through penalty due to pitting under SC, which destroyed his chances anyway.