2010 What to Change Thread

[call_me_andrew]

No, I am not getting sick of these threads.

In the spirit of accepting the things I cannot change, I'll ignore the Chase, alternative fuels, adding new tracks, and the length of the season.

I'll limit this to Cup.

1. Fuel injection by way of common PCM.

2. Bodyshells that are silhouettes of production cars, but no in season handicapping (if one brand dominates, tough ****).

3. Open up the regulations involving front and rear suspensions.

4. Eliminate the splitter and the spoiler and put a flat undertray under the cars.

5. Move Darlington back to Labor Day.

6. No more green-white-checkered finishes.

7. A tire war done correctly.

8. Rain tires for short tracks. (I've done the math, and as long as dry cornering speeds are below 120mph, it is feasable).

9. No more catch cans.

10. Conduct an actual survey of fans, don't just follow the loudest complaints.

[Mark in Oshawa]

No, I am not getting sick of these threads.

In the spirit of accepting the things I cannot change, I'll ignore the Chase, alternative fuels, adding new tracks, and the length of the season.

I'll limit this to Cup.

1. Fuel injection by way of common PCM.

That is coming I believe.


2. Bodyshells that are silhouettes of production cars, but no in season handicapping (if one brand dominates, tough ****).I am all for it but you might not like what you see....


3. Open up the regulations involving front and rear suspensions. I am all for this for sure....


4. Eliminate the splitter and the spoiler and put a flat undertray under the cars. Works for me, but I suspect it isn't that big a factor...


5. Move Darlington back to Labor Day.For sure...but Atlanta is acceptable me in the way California was NOT.


6. No more green-white-checkered finishes.ONe is ok..tonight at Phoenix was ok....I don't like 3 tho.


7. A tire war done correctly.What would that be? Forget that idea...there has never been a good tire war really...


8. Rain tires for short tracks. (I've done the math, and as long as dry cornering speeds are below 120mph, it is feasable).I would like for you to explain what NASCAR would gain by this? Basically Martinsville and Bristol. Seeing is tough enough in the corners without rain, with it, it would be a wreck fest. No....it aint worth it.


9. No more catch cans.WHY? No gas gauges make this game hard enough...


10. Conduct an actual survey of fans, don't just follow the loudest complaints.

Actually, I think they have that fans committee of sorts, where 20000 are picked from random for surveys....

[call_me_andrew]

The truck series has eliminated catch cans. The fuel cans now have a clear tube so the gas man can see when the tank is full. The less people on pit road, the better.

Rain tires offer several gains. A lack of rain delays is good for TV. Fans don't have to choose between showing up for a race on Monday and work.

As for visibility: you seem to be worried about spray. Spray is only an issue in very deep water (in which case hydroplaning would be a bigger threat and we would stop racing for that) and high speed (which we would not see at such tracks).

EDIT: And speaking of speed, I've determined that average speeds in moderate rain are about 80% of their dry counterparts.

[slorydn1]

No, I am not getting sick of these threads.

In the spirit of accepting the things I cannot change, I'll ignore the Chase, alternative fuels, adding new tracks, and the length of the season.

I'll limit this to Cup.

1. Fuel injection by way of common PCM.

2. Bodyshells that are silhouettes of production cars, but no in season handicapping (if one brand dominates, tough ****).

3. Open up the regulations involving front and rear suspensions.

4. Eliminate the splitter and the spoiler and put a flat undertray under the cars.

5. Move Darlington back to Labor Day.

6. No more green-white-checkered finishes.

7. A tire war done correctly.

8. Rain tires for short tracks. (I've done the math, and as long as dry cornering speeds are below 120mph, it is feasable).

9. No more catch cans.

10. Conduct an actual survey of fans, don't just follow the loudest complaints.


I can agree with all, but 4,7 and 8.....

Well part of 4, anyway....get rid of the damn splitter, it's ugly as sin.

Other than that... :up:

[Mark in Oshawa]

The truck series has eliminated catch cans. The fuel cans now have a clear tube so the gas man can see when the tank is full. The less people on pit road, the better.

The Catch can guy isn't the issue on pit road. The catch can's help the engineers and crew chiefs play the fuel mileage game by giving them somewhat accurate knowledge of how much gas the car actually took. I wouldn't want that part of racing sacrificed to save people on pit road. If THAT is your concern, put one nut wheels on the cars and onboard jacks like an Indy car. THAT is a more valid way of saving people, not the catch can guy who is a foot off the wall.


Rain tires offer several gains. A lack of rain delays is good for TV. Fans don't have to choose between showing up for a race on Monday and work.

As for visibility: you seem to be worried about spray. Spray is only an issue in very deep water (in which case hydroplaning would be a bigger threat and we would stop racing for that) and high speed (which we would not see at such tracks).

EDIT: And speaking of speed, I've determined that average speeds in moderate rain are about 80% of their dry counterparts.

Light rain? Usually it RAINS hard or it doesn't rain at all. Listen, I LOVE racing in the rain on road courses. I loved the Montreal experiment's and I love racing in the rain in Indy car and ALMS. Don't put me down as someone who is totally against the concept.

The problem is in Sprint Cup, you have almost 900hp and the smallest tread patch of any form of racing on a car weighing this much. So the cars are a handful on some corners WITH dry conditions. If it is just a light rain, they will be a handful. This is a rare thing, for anyone who saw the rain falling at Martinsville saw for the most part, it was heavy enough spray would be an issue.

The conditions you deterimine to be suitable would be light rain on a short track. So basically 4 times a year that rain tires would be usuable? What about road courses? Ok...6? So maximum 6 times a year you would be using these tires. Richmond is too fast IMO to even consider it. So for 6 days a year teams would have to worry about rain tires? Then if it rains too hard, you still cant race. What happens if a light rain becomes a hard rain and you are not half way yet?

NASCAR isn't about giving people a substandard race, and they believe, as I do that Sprint Cup cars with rain tires isn't really valid. I am all for rain on road courses with the IRL guys or ALMS, but not in NASCAR Sprint Cup. I just don't see it being anything more than a lot of wrecks and a lot of yellows. I see enough of pace cars now....

[call_me_andrew]

They don't need the catch can to tell how much fuel the car took. They know what the can weighs empty, they know what the can weighs full, and they weigh the cans after every stop. All the catch can ever did was indicate when the tank was full, and now there's a clear plastic tube doing the job.

Smaller tread is actually an advantage in wet weather. When you buy snow tires, you try to buy a size narrower, not a size wider.

Bridgestone/Firestone conducted a test study to determine maximum conering speeds for IndyCar. The maximum conering speed at Indianapolis was 150 mph. I noticed the fastest a Nationwide car has gone in a turn in rain at Montreal is 120 mph (which happens to be 80% of 150), so I can take 120 as a maximum wet speed. So if we take 120 as a dry speed limit, then any oval with a cornering speed below 120 must be safe. These ovals include Martinsville, Bristol, Richmond, Loudon, and Pheonix. When we include the road courses, that's one-third of the year.

I don't know what weather in Oshawa is like, but rain isn't just off and on. A drizzile and a monsoon are two different things.

[harvick#1]

I saw this one on yahoo


Green Flag Pitstops ONLY!!!!! pitting under yellow will be a one lap penalty if taking fuel and/or tires. pitting under yellow is allowed to fix damage or mechanical.

this will really make Nascar be spiced up alot better, and it will eliminate the undeserving winners who dominated the entire race when a debris caution gets thrown out randomly to force everyone to pit

[Mark in Oshawa]

They don't need the catch can to tell how much fuel the car took. They know what the can weighs empty, they know what the can weighs full, and they weigh the cans after every stop. All the catch can ever did was indicate when the tank was full, and now there's a clear plastic tube doing the job.

I guess you have never seen the gas spitting out the back when the tank is full. That catch can is catching a few pints of gas in some cases. You are trying to claim safety to ride the pit lane of the catch can, and yet you didn't advocate automatic jacks (the most dangerous spot IMO is have your rear end out in traffic jumping on the jack on the right side). Safety or is you just think we don't need catch cans? If you are on the side of safety, the jackman is the FIRST to go. If you are advocating saving money, you wont be, because when they restricted the crew over the wall in Truck to save money, it didn't really do anything but drive everyone nuts.



Smaller tread is actually an advantage in wet weather. When you buy snow tires, you try to buy a size narrower, not a size wider.

Bridgestone/Firestone conducted a test study to determine maximum conering speeds for IndyCar. The maximum conering speed at Indianapolis was 150 mph. I noticed the fastest a Nationwide car has gone in a turn in rain at Montreal is 120 mph (which happens to be 80% of 150), so I can take 120 as a maximum wet speed. So if we take 120 as a dry speed limit, then any oval with a cornering speed below 120 must be safe. These ovals include Martinsville, Bristol, Richmond, Loudon, and Pheonix. When we include the road courses, that's one-third of the year.

I don't know what weather in Oshawa is like, but rain isn't just off and on. A drizzile and a monsoon are two different things.

Snow and rain are not the same. The problem you have to realize is the traction coefficient of dry tires on a Cup car is pretty much straining those tires to the limit now. You see guys getting wheelspin like crazy on restarts. That is in perfect conditions. Rain tires on wet tarmac are not going to grip even THAT well, but the cars will still have the nearly 900hp. Just on THAT alone I think you are flirting with disaster. Listen, I loved the Nationwide races in Montreal in the rain, but I saw the lack of traction there with cars with 2/3's the power barely made them drivable, and we had a wreck fest.

You can drive narrow tires down into snow to look for traction, but as someone who has driven in more snow than you will ever see, you are forgetting I am going a heck of a lot SLOWER when I have my car or truck biting down, and my ability to stop and turn is just cut in half. IN short, rain tires wont put on a good show on any ovals. The speeds will drop to the point that the show will be lost. It is wishful thinking on your part to think that anyone would go out there in a Cup Car at a place like Loudon where they are hauling it down from 160mph into a 100 mph corner in the dry and then try it in the wet. People have died hitting the wall at that place, and I cant see anyone with a sane mind giving that place a go in a Cup car in the wet.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I saw this one on yahoo


Green Flag Pitstops ONLY!!!!! pitting under yellow will be a one lap penalty if taking fuel and/or tires. pitting under yellow is allowed to fix damage or mechanical.

this will really make Nascar be spiced up alot better, and it will eliminate the undeserving winners who dominated the entire race when a debris caution gets thrown out randomly to force everyone to pit

You like close finishes? Then drop this idea....

[harvick#1]

You like close finishes? Then drop this idea....

I'm a fan of close finishes when they happen naturally, not artificially like Nascar has been doing lately

[call_me_andrew]

I guess you have never seen the gas spitting out the back when the tank is full. That catch can is catching a few pints of gas in some cases. You are trying to claim safety to ride the pit lane of the catch can, and yet you didn't advocate automatic jacks (the most dangerous spot IMO is have your rear end out in traffic jumping on the jack on the right side). Safety or is you just think we don't need catch cans? If you are on the side of safety, the jackman is the FIRST to go. If you are advocating saving money, you wont be, because when they restricted the crew over the wall in Truck to save money, it didn't really do anything but drive everyone nuts.

Snow and rain are not the same. The problem you have to realize is the traction coefficient of dry tires on a Cup car is pretty much straining those tires to the limit now. You see guys getting wheelspin like crazy on restarts. That is in perfect conditions. Rain tires on wet tarmac are not going to grip even THAT well, but the cars will still have the nearly 900hp. Just on THAT alone I think you are flirting with disaster. Listen, I loved the Nationwide races in Montreal in the rain, but I saw the lack of traction there with cars with 2/3's the power barely made them drivable, and we had a wreck fest.

You can drive narrow tires down into snow to look for traction, but as someone who has driven in more snow than you will ever see, you are forgetting I am going a heck of a lot SLOWER when I have my car or truck biting down, and my ability to stop and turn is just cut in half. IN short, rain tires wont put on a good show on any ovals. The speeds will drop to the point that the show will be lost. It is wishful thinking on your part to think that anyone would go out there in a Cup Car at a place like Loudon where they are hauling it down from 160mph into a 100 mph corner in the dry and then try it in the wet. People have died hitting the wall at that place, and I cant see anyone with a sane mind giving that place a go in a Cup car in the wet.

I know the catch can catches extra fuel that spits out once the tank is full. So once the tank is full the gasman will signal the crewchief and jackman that he is done. This extra fuel itself is not needed in calculating the mileage of the car as the catch can can only indicate the tank is full.

Watch any truck series pit stop this year. A clear platic tube has been added to every gas can and the gasman uses that to see when the tank is full.

This is a matter of safety, but not the safety you're thinking of. It doesn't eliminate putting the jackman in harm's way, but in the event of a fire on pit road there will be one less burn victim. Plus we won't see drivers accidently leave their pits with the catch cans still attached (catch cans that can fall off and hit other cars/bring out a caution/cost the driver a penalty).

Last year's NW race at Montreal was a wreckfest long before the rain started. The previous year's race (which was primarily in the rain) was mostly crash free.

I figure Loudon speeds between 130 on the straight and about 80 in the turns. Given that ARCA can manage a dirt race on a one-mile track, a moist paved track shouldn't be too far fetched.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I know the catch can catches extra fuel that spits out once the tank is full. So once the tank is full the gasman will signal the crewchief and jackman that he is done. This extra fuel itself is not needed in calculating the mileage of the car as the catch can can only indicate the tank is full.

Watch any truck series pit stop this year. A clear platic tube has been added to every gas can and the gasman uses that to see when the tank is full.

This is a matter of safety, but not the safety you're thinking of. It doesn't eliminate putting the jackman in harm's way, but in the event of a fire on pit road there will be one less burn victim. Plus we won't see drivers accidently leave their pits with the catch cans still attached (catch cans that can fall off and hit other cars/bring out a caution/cost the driver a penalty).

How many fires on pit lane? How many crewman are hit? You want to really do that math? Ok...fine, dump the catch can man, but the gas the catch can guy was weighing is part of the calculation. If they can fuel the cars without spilling it out the back with the clear tube, great, but I am still convinced if safety is your motive, they dump the jackman and go onboard.


Last year's NW race at Montreal was a wreckfest long before the rain started. The previous year's race (which was primarily in the rain) was mostly crash free.

I figure Loudon speeds between 130 on the straight and about 80 in the turns. Given that ARCA can manage a dirt race on a one-mile track, a moist paved track shouldn't be too far fetched.

The NW race the year before the weather was so bad guys were crawling, and they wrecked a few cars then too. It is just a BAD idea in my books. I wouldn't expect to see the boys on a track like Martinsville on wets any time soon. The visiblity will be BRUTAL there.

AS for ARCA on a one mile dirt track, they run on a flat oval with very large radius turns and dirt with the right tires has a lot more traction than wet tires on an oval in the wet. Different deal. Listen, if wet races on short ovals got NASCAR to get their races in on time and didn't hurt the product, NASCAR would have done it by now. The fact is, there is a reason NO one in the planet races on oval tracks in the rain. It wont work.....you say in theory it will, but I am sure the tire engineers have pointed out the realities of it.

[harvick#1]

you couldn't race in the rain at Martinsville, there will be major standing water in the turns from the curbing, they will basically have one groove and and very narrow one at best, not a safe idea

[nigelred5]

Smaller tread is actually an advantage in wet weather. When you buy snow tires, you try to buy a size narrower, not a size wider.
.
I don't care how much water is on the track, the weight of a stock car and the tread pattern on the goodyears is going to pump a massive amount of spray into the air at jsut about any speed.
Snow tires are narrower so they cut through snow rather than plow, and the tread actually helps grab the snow. Rain tires simply pump the water to maintain the contact patch with the road. Apples and oranges IMHO. Lets re-schedule the Montreal race for the week after Daytona. ;)

[nigelred5]

I dno't need Green Flag only stops, but quit waiting for everyone to finish their cycle of pit stops, take leak and grab a beer before going green again. 10 laps to pick up a piece of rollbar padding is rediculous. Flagging the field because someone spun and never hit anything, ok, slow the field to make sure ther is no debris, shake it out and wave the green again. Quit with the lucky dog BS. If you choose to pit and make it out before the green, welcome to the front. If you got caught in the pits, oh well...... solly challie.

NASCAR's yellow flag pit stops are handed out like golds medals in the Special Olympics.

[Mark in Oshawa]

you couldn't race in the rain at Martinsville, there will be major standing water in the turns from the curbing, they will basically have one groove and and very narrow one at best, not a safe idea

Thanks for adding that. Andrew thinks the rest of the engineers at Goodyear and wise men of NASCAR are stupid or something on this one...

[Mark in Oshawa]

I dno't need Green Flag only stops, but quit waiting for everyone to finish their cycle of pit stops, take leak and grab a beer before going green again. 10 laps to pick up a piece of rollbar padding is rediculous. Flagging the field because someone spun and never hit anything, ok, slow the field to make sure ther is no debris, shake it out and wave the green again. Quit with the lucky dog BS. If you choose to pit and make it out before the green, welcome to the front. If you got caught in the pits, oh well...... solly challie.

NASCAR's yellow flag pit stops are handed out like golds medals in the Special Olympics.

I am all for that....it would really put strategy back into things wouldn't it?

[call_me_andrew]

you couldn't race in the rain at Martinsville, there will be major standing water in the turns from the curbing, they will basically have one groove and and very narrow one at best, not a safe idea

One groove? Have you never seen a wet race? They'll probably drive 3 wide in the turns trying to find grip.


Thanks for adding that. Andrew thinks the rest of the engineers at Goodyear and wise men of NASCAR are stupid or something on this one...

Not stupid, just lazy.

[Mark in Oshawa]

One groove? Have you never seen a wet race? They'll probably drive 3 wide in the turns trying to find grip.
At Martinsville? Well since the inside lane and a half rubbers up while the cars run in the dry; it will be a skating rink until that rubber washes away. Meanwhile you have just wrecked half the field while they all try to run out by the wall to avoid the mess. Add in all the oil and solvents coming up as the rain first hits. OH ya...you love watching cars get wrecked don't you?




Not stupid, just lazy.

OH ya, how about NASCAR isn't going to do this in a million years so why would they spend money developing a rain tire. Andrew, you have to operate in the real world....

[harvick#1]

One groove? Have you never seen a wet race? They'll probably drive 3 wide in the turns trying to find grip.



your asking me if I've ever seen a wet race? I watch every racing series I get to see, and they dont go 3 wide to find grip, they will move the driving line away from the apex because there is normally standing water in that area.

Rain tires on ovals will never work because the amount of stress the tires have compared to road courses. Goodyear does have the rain tire for th NWS, but I dont think they have one for the Cot

[call_me_andrew]

Rain tires on ovals will never work because the amount of stress the tires have compared to road courses. Goodyear does have the rain tire for th NWS, but I dont think they have one for the Cot

Rain tires don't need air for cooling like slicks; they're cooled by the water they're driving in. Water is a much more efficent cooling medium than air. As long as they're kept wet, they can handle all the stress you can throw at them.


OH ya, how about NASCAR isn't going to do this in a million years so why would they spend money developing a rain tire. Andrew, you have to operate in the real world....

Real world... it's a king for a day thread!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Good point Andrew. It is your fantasy/wish list, and in that sense, there is no problem thinking it might work, I was just arguing why I know it wont happen.