Drivers never beaten by teammates?

[Garry Walker]

Now, I know this will be a little off topic in a way, but it is also relevant to the topic of Hamiltons greatness, so I hope the mods dont delete this.


Sure, he was beaten by team-mates but has there ever been a driver who was never beaten by a team-mate?
None of the true greats were beaten by the level of drivers GV was beaten by and not the amount of times GV was beaten. Reutemann, Scheckter? Good drivers, but not one of the greats.


A true racer? Certainly. Overrated? I don't think so.
He is for sure overrated. Never before has someone with so little credentials been rated so high.



Because he was a true racer, as Scheckter once said, "Gilles had to be the fastest on every lap, even in testing".This should help him in qualifying, wouldnt you agree? Going for massive risks, trying to be the fastest.
Yet, he was beaten in qualifying by Reutemann clearly (14-4 in their time together - has any other "great" been beaten so badly ever, with the exception of Prost by Senna) and for a man who had to be the fastest every lap, he sure was not that impressive against JS either (only beat him 8-7 in Q in 1979). These are facts and no amount of emotional yadayada will change those.



As a result he sometimes went over the limit. GV's argument would have been you have to go over the limit to know exactly where it is, and he wouldn't go over it on that track, or on that corner, again. Unlike Scheckter or Pironi whose aim was to win the title, trophies were not GV's reason for going racing. The sport and racing itself were what motivated him. In times when winning is everything, and wins and titles are the means of rating a driver, then that was GV's flaw.Again, if that was his attitude, he should have been destroying his teammates in qualifying, but that was not the case at all. Pure speed and all. In fact, when you look at his qualifying results, it was 39-26 in favour of him compared to his teammate, but if you count out beating the unmotivated/couldnt care less JS in 1980, the stats will be 26-26. So I ask, for a man with supposedly such great speed, why was he not able to beat his teammates?

So for comparison, I will give you this data about outqualifying your teammate and getting outqualified.
Michael Schumacher 211:38
Ayrton Senna 140:18 (as you can see, almost three times more races than GV and yet less times getting outqualified. Doesnt look that good for mr.purespeed Villeneuve, does it)
Jim Clark 52:15

Those look a bit better than 39:26, dont they?

[Saint Devote]

It doesn't matter whether a driver is one of the "greats" or not or whether they are ever beaten by teammates, the question is whether they can get the job done.

You mention Jody Scheckter above and Carlos Reutemann together.

At the time, there was amazement and skepticism that Enzo Ferrari should sign Jody. His attitude of not taking nonsense from anyone they said would end in tears at the Scuderia.

The question is can a driver get the job done? Thats all.

Jody did and Carlos did not. Ferrari following that did not win another titke for TWENTY years.

Similarly, who on the grid can get the job done?

Gilles Villeneuve was one of the quickest drivers ever, but he would compromise winning races with being quick.

And Jody said when asked that yes Gilles is quick, but he worries about the things he does on the track sometimes. Scheckter is one of the closest people to the Villeneuve family and protected them after that awful day in 1982.

Jody accepted that Gilles was quicker, but it is not the quickest driver that wins races or titles. It is the driver who, as Emerson says, does it by doing the least neccessary.

So if your rivals for the title are just ahead or behind you on the track why push for the next place if it could comprimise your position?

The question remains to be seen whether drives like Vettel or Hamilton can win a title that way.

Monza 2009 showed that at least Hamilton has difficulty controlling that urge. Schumacher would have won third place and not crashed.

As in business, one has to know when to settle rather than end up with nothing.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Michael Schumacher 211:38


This season is effing up his stats! :p

[D28]

Jody did and Carlos did not. Ferrari following that did not win another titke for TWENTY years.

They did of course, win back to back constructors championships in 1982-83.
1982 was devastating for Ferrari, losing both G Villeneuve and Pironi and missing some races, they still prevailed over McLaren. It is important to point this out, as the popular misconception in the press, is of 20 years in the wilderness.

[Saint Devote]

This season is effing up his stats! :p

And if Schumi does not win this year, Jim Clark will edge ahead in win percentage making him top dog once again in all percentages including poles and fastest laps versus Prost, Senna and Schumacher.

[Saint Devote]

They did of course, win back to back constructors championships in 1982-83.
1982 was devastating for Ferrari, losing both G Villeneuve and Pironi and missing some races, they still prevailed over McLaren. It is important to point this out, as the popular misconception in the press, is of 20 years in the wilderness.

Its true what you say, but they also did not win another drivers title from 1980 until 2000.

The constructors championship is popularly far too esoteric. It matters to the constructors but beyond them, not too many others.

[V12]

And if Schumi does not win this year, Jim Clark will edge ahead in win percentage making him top dog once again in all percentages including poles and fastest laps versus Prost, Senna and Schumacher.

Is Fangio not ahead of Clark in wins to starts percentage? Sorry I don't have the figures to hand and am too tired to look them up but Fangio I think had the same number of wins, or failing that one less (I'm pretty sure Clark's last win either beat or equalled Fangio's at-the-time record for total wins), and both raced in seven full seasons (50-57 excluding 52 for JMF, 61-67 for Clark), except Clark had pretty much half a season in 60 plus there would have been marginally less WDC races in Fangio's era.

I don't doubt that if you worked out wins to FINISHES percentages Clark would be well out front of everyone, but again I don't have the empirical evidence to hand for that :)

[ShiftingGears]

Is Fangio not ahead of Clark in wins to starts percentage?

Fangio is indeed ahead on the wins/starts ratio.

[ioan]

Now, I know this will be a little off topic in a way, but it is also relevant to the topic of Hamiltons greatness, so I hope the mods dont delete this.


None of the true greats were beaten by the level of drivers GV was beaten by and not the amount of times GV was beaten. Reutemann, Scheckter? Good drivers, but not one of the greats.

He is for sure overrated. Never before has someone with so little credentials been rated so high.

This should help him in qualifying, wouldnt you agree? Going for massive risks, trying to be the fastest.
Yet, he was beaten in qualifying by Reutemann clearly (14-4 in their time together - has any other "great" been beaten so badly ever, with the exception of Prost by Senna) and for a man who had to be the fastest every lap, he sure was not that impressive against JS either (only beat him 8-7 in Q in 1979). These are facts and no amount of emotional yadayada will change those.

Again, if that was his attitude, he should have been destroying his teammates in qualifying, but that was not the case at all. Pure speed and all. In fact, when you look at his qualifying results, it was 39-26 in favour of him compared to his teammate, but if you count out beating the unmotivated/couldnt care less JS in 1980, the stats will be 26-26. So I ask, for a man with supposedly such great speed, why was he not able to beat his teammates?

So for comparison, I will give you this data about outqualifying your teammate and getting outqualified.
Michael Schumacher 211:38
Ayrton Senna 140:18 (as you can see, almost three times more races than GV and yet less times getting outqualified. Doesnt look that good for mr.purespeed Villeneuve, does it)
Jim Clark 52:15

Those look a bit better than 39:26, dont they?

:up:

If it wasn't for his premature death GV would have never been hailed, falsely, like one of the greats. But this happening only shows the huge emotive subjectivity of human beings.

[UltimateDanGTR]

I think Gilles Villenueve is remembered for his attitude and his character, in that sense he was one of the greatest characters ever to have raced in F1. he wasn't the best in terms of speed and consistency, but he was one of the most unpredictable and exciting grand prix drivers to watch ever.

that is the legend and memories of the great gilles villenueve IMO, not the supreme driving skill as much (he was no doubt talented though, dont get me wrong)

[ArrowsFA1]

If it wasn't for his premature death GV would have never been hailed, falsely, like one of the greats.
I disagree. This is how Jackie Stewart described Gilles:

His level of natural talent is phenomenal - there's real genius in his car control."
Note the use of the word "is".


I think Gilles Villenueve is remembered for his attitude and his character, in that sense he was one of the greatest characters ever to have raced in F1.
:up:

The likes of Gilles Villeneuve, Ronnie Peterson, Stirling Moss and Chris Amon always suffer somewhat when the greats of F1 are discussed largely because of the statistical measure. Between them they won "just" 32 GPs and no championships, and yet they were, and still are, all rated very highly by their peers.

[ioan]

I disagree. This is how Jackie Stewart described Gilles:

Still he never achieved.
Words are worth nothing without facts.

[Garry Walker]

I disagree. This is how Jackie Stewart described Gilles:

Note the use of the word "is".


:up:

The likes of Gilles Villeneuve, Ronnie Peterson, Stirling Moss and Chris Amon always suffer somewhat when the greats of F1 are discussed largely because of the statistical measure. Between them they won "just" 32 GPs and no championships, and yet they were, and still are, all rated very highly by their peers.

Stirling Moss was a great, that is undeniable. That he didnt win the title doesnt make him less of a driver than Scheckter or Hulme for example, who won titles. It is the opposite in fact.
But as for Villeneuve, you havent commented in any way as to why his qualifying stats against his teammates were so bad, when he was so known for his pure speed and all-out approach which should have helped him in qualifying?
Could it be that he really was just not that fast at all, just exciting to watch.

[wedge]

I think Gilles Villenueve is remembered for his attitude and his character, in that sense he was one of the greatest characters ever to have raced in F1. he wasn't the best in terms of speed and consistency, but he was one of the most unpredictable and exciting grand prix drivers to watch ever.

that is the legend and memories of the great gilles villenueve IMO, not the supreme driving skill as much (he was no doubt talented though, dont get me wrong)

:up:

Gilles, like Peterson and even Colin McCrae, represents racing purity - maximum attack and on the limit.

This purism should be celebrated but should not be confused with 'greatness'. It takes more than car control to be a 'great' driver.

[D28]

Its true what you say, but they also did not win another drivers title from 1980 until 2000.

The constructors championship is popularly far too esoteric. It matters to the constructors but beyond them, not too many others.

This seems to be a widely held opinion, one I do not fully share. I put this down to the press, at least in N. America, not really understanding F1, and concentrating on just the Drivers' title. It is the team prize, and thus should be a true measure of sucess over a season. I concede that probably not too many recall Constructors' winners in 1976 (ferrari) and 1973 (Lotus). Certainly Ferrari was relieved to win the Constructors' again in 99, but overjoyed to lift both titles the following year.

This purism should be celebrated but should not be confused with 'greatness'. It takes more than car control to be a 'great' driver.

Amen.

[ArrowsFA1]

Still he never achieved.
Never achieved what exactly? If you're simply talking about numbers then no, he didn't achieve as many wins or titles as those I assume you would consider 'greats', but in my view those numbers form a part, not the whole, of the measure of 'greatness'.

I certainly don't consider GV to be the greatest F1 driver who ever lived because he had flaws that prevented him reaching that kind of standing. But equally those flaws, yes, made him exciting to watch and sometimes capable of doing things in a racing car that few, if any, others could do.

Words are worth nothing without facts.
I disagree. In the context of what we are discussing the words of GV's peers mean a great deal because they knew him by racing against him.

When the likes of Niki Lauda say "Villeneuve had the best talent of all of us", or Rene Arnoux, who went wheel to wheel with him in that famous clip at Dijon, says "We all knew he had a talent beyond our reach", or Keke Rosberg says "Gilles was a giant of a driver, yes, but he was also a great man" there are no facts in their words, but I think their words mean, and say, a great deal.

Of course there are other drivers who may place greater emphasis on the flaws, rather than the speed. Riccardo Patrese, for one, illustrated this when, having been in the Lancia team with GV at the 1979 Giro d'italia, he saw the Canadian crash one of the team's Beta Montecarlos within a few laps of stepping into it.


But as for Villeneuve, you havent commented in any way as to why his qualifying stats against his teammates were so bad...Could it be that he really was just not that fast at all, just exciting to watch.
Well, I don't think those particular stats were "so bad", but I take your point; why could someone who was generally considered the fastest not be fastest all the time?

Look at it this way, how on earth could Vitaly Petrov outqualify Button, Alonso and Hamilton in Malaysia? Are those three world champions just not that fast after all? Of course not, but circumstances do play their part in all qualifying sessions.

Also, GV's desire to be the fastest at all times did not always beat a more methodical means of getting the car right. I do think Villeneuve was more of a thinking driver than he's generally given credit for, but still that desire possibly cost him speed at times.

[Mark in Oshawa]

GV wasn't always the fastest guy in every session, or the best qualifier in every race he was entered in. However, no other driver in his era put as much pride and effort into being that fastest guy, and I suspect if you total up his record vs his teammates, he was faster more often than not after his second season.

The true legend of his greatness was though in the respect he held with other drivers. Hearing an f1 driver praise another driver is so rare anymore, especially in the manner Gilles was praised. It wasn't the back of field guys just saying this, but WDC's and fellow greats, and past greats such as Jackie Stewart. He was NOT average, he would have to be an exceptional talent to get this sort of praise.

The only thing stopping Gilles from being the greatest driver of all time was his uncanny ability to try too hard every lap and his premature death. That, and maybe better Ferrari's under him. Cars matter SO much in F1, and how many great drivers have had lesser results because the car they had was NOT competitive?

Gilles was guilty of trying too hard every lap, every day....and I cant fault him for that. It made me love him....and I hold him always as my favourite driver of all time...so toss all your stats out the window, because when we discuss greats, it is an emotional response.

[BDunnell]

Gilles was guilty of trying too hard every lap, every day....and I cant fault him for that. It made me love him....and I hold him always as my favourite driver of all time...so toss all your stats out the window, because when we discuss greats, it is an emotional response.

Except for those who, sadly, have a completely joyless, soulless interpretation of enjoying Grand Prix racing, or one based entirely on the drivers they favour being brilliant and everybody else a waste of space.

[Saint Devote]

Nico Rosberg has never been beaten by a teammate on a championship and on balance qualifying position.

And the way it looks after only three grands prix admittedly, in 2010, he could just shock the F1 world, raise his stature and beat a teammate that surpases all other teammates: Michael Schumacher!!

OMG! Reach for the Alka Selzer!

[Saint Devote]

GV wasn't always the fastest guy in every session, or the best qualifier in every race he was entered in. However, no other driver in his era put as much pride and effort into being that fastest guy, and I suspect if you total up his record vs his teammates, he was faster more often than not after his second season.

The true legend of his greatness was though in the respect he held with other drivers. Hearing an f1 driver praise another driver is so rare anymore, especially in the manner Gilles was praised. It wasn't the back of field guys just saying this, but WDC's and fellow greats, and past greats such as Jackie Stewart. He was NOT average, he would have to be an exceptional talent to get this sort of praise.

The only thing stopping Gilles from being the greatest driver of all time was his uncanny ability to try too hard every lap and his premature death. That, and maybe better Ferrari's under him. Cars matter SO much in F1, and how many great drivers have had lesser results because the car they had was NOT competitive?

Gilles was guilty of trying too hard every lap, every day....and I cant fault him for that. It made me love him....and I hold him always as my favourite driver of all time...so toss all your stats out the window, because when we discuss greats, it is an emotional response.

The driver that was pesonally closest to Gilles and his family and in racing terms knew him best, was Jody Scheckter.

And he always said when asked that Gilles was the quickest of their generation and that being the quickest and winning grands prix only, not the championship interested him.

GV also never like small talking with people very much so he would insist that they remove their shoes if they visited his caravan at the track - they would never stay overly long :D

Interestingly, of all the modern drivers, Gilles Villeneuve's photo was the ONLY one Enzo Ferrari kept in his office. I think Fangio and Nuvolari were the others.

[Garry Walker]

I certainly don't consider GV to be the greatest F1 driver who ever lived because he had flaws that prevented him reaching that kind of standing. But equally those flaws, yes, made him exciting to watch and sometimes capable of doing things in a racing car that few, if any, others could do.

The biggest out of those flaws being not talented and fast enough compared to drivers like Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Clark and so on.



I disagree. In the context of what we are discussing the words of GV's peers mean a great deal because they knew him by racing against him. You keep coming up with those few quotes and have been doing that for years, but they mean nothing. NOTHING. Facts are important here. Facts show us that Villeneuve was beaten by 2 of his teammates, struggled massively against one of his teammates in qualifying and that teammate was not even one of the greats. You can show me 1050 quotes and it will still change nothing. Remember, quotes can come from emotional responses, facts have nothing to do with emotion. When a persons judgement is clouded by emotion, the judgements usually tend to be not that accurate.



Well, I don't think those particular stats were "so bad", but I take your point; why could someone who was generally considered the fastest not be fastest all the time? For someone hailed so much, those stats were AWFUL.
With the kind of praise he is getting, one would expect him to better his teammates 15:1 in qualifying, but he was about as far from that as possible.
So he could have been generally held as the fastest, but facts do not support that view and I dont even regard him as the fastest of his era.



Look at it this way, how on earth could Vitaly Petrov outqualify Button, Alonso and Hamilton in Malaysia? Are those three world champions just not that fast after all? Of course not, but circumstances do play their part in all qualifying sessions. What an awful example. You are talking about one qualifying that was ruined by rain and is far too small of a sample to make any conclusions from, This is completely different from making judgements from ones whole career. We have a case if Petrov outqualifies those guys another 10 times this season.

So you still have no explanation how someone with such an awful record in qualifying can be praised so much for his speed.


Also, GV's desire to be the fastest at all times did not always beat a more methodical means of getting the car right. I do think Villeneuve was more of a thinking driver than he's generally given credit for, but still that desire possibly cost him speed at times. So what you are pretty much saying is that he was a brainless idiot?




The only thing stopping Gilles from being the greatest driver of all time was his uncanny ability to try too hard every lap and his premature death.That and maybe the fact that about 30 guys in the history of F1 have been faster and more talented than him.
The guy was 32 when he died. 2 years younger than Senna. Same age as Clark - Nothing has stopped those guys from being considered as the greatest evers. I think we all can agree that he didnt have that many years in front of him anymore.


That, and maybe better Ferrari's under him. Cars matter SO much in F1, and how many great drivers have had lesser results because the car they had was NOT competitive?
He had a title winning car and what happened? His teammate beat him. Most drivers in F1 never get a chance to have a title-winning car under them, he had it. He promptly got beaten by his teammate. It would be okay if his teammate had been Senna or Prost, but it was only Scheckter.



and I hold him always as my favourite driver of all time...Which is your right and which I have no problem with. What I have a problem with is people hailing their favourite drivers as "best ever", when nothing supports that view. You can make a case for many drivers being the greatest ever and I will not have a problem with those ones - Ascari, Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, the pre-f1 guys like Nuvolari and Rosemeyer. But someone like Villeneuve? Nope, no case for him.



so toss all your stats out the window, because when we discuss greats, it is an emotional response.okay, my emotions tell me that Kamui Kobayashi is the greatest driver of all times. So toss your stats, your meaningless facts, out of the window.


Except for those who, sadly, have a completely joyless, soulless interpretation of enjoying Grand Prix racing, or one based entirely on the drivers they favour being brilliant and everybody else a waste of space.

Dunnell, the mr.superior, coming out with another bunch of insults.



Nico Rosberg has never been beaten by a teammate on a championship and on balance qualifying position. Webber in 2006?

[BDunnell]

Dunnell, the mr.superior, coming out with another bunch of insults.

Glass houses, stones, etc.

[Garry Walker]

Glass houses, stones, etc.

Pot, kettle, black, etc.

[F1boat]

Nico Rosberg has never been beaten by a teammate on a championship and on balance qualifying position.


Webber beat him.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Walker...you don't think GV was any good...that's fine. The majority of people I have found DO think he was pretty good...and pretty special. Not the best...not the most intelligent behind the wheel (although he was very bright) but unique, and real. Unlike the haughty attitude with legs that was Schumi, or the laser like disdain Senna held some of his contempories in, GV was a good guy. Period.

As for him being beat by Scheckter, basically team orders kept him from really fighting Jody hard at the end of the season. In a straight out no order's enviroment as you would see in Indycar or the old CART series, Gilles would have bashed clawed or just outright ran by Jody, and Jody knows it...

[ArrowsFA1]

Facts show us that Villeneuve was beaten by 2 of his teammates, struggled massively against one of his teammates in qualifying and that teammate was not even one of the greats. You can show me 1050 quotes and it will still change nothing.
Facts show us that Villeneuve was beaten by all of his team-mates at one point or another, whether that be in qualifying, the race, or the championsip. That doesn't alter my opinion of him.

With the kind of praise he is getting, one would expect him to better his teammates 15:1 in qualifying, but he was about as far from that as possible.
In fact, Villeneuve's record against all his team-mates in qualifying is 40:28 in the Canadian's favour. You're right that Reutemann was faster, on 14 occasions in fact, when they were together at Ferrari in 1977/8.

I dont even regard him as the fastest of his era.
Fair enough.

[Garry Walker]

Walker...you don't think GV was any good...that's fine. He was a very good driver, but not anywhere near one of all-time greats like Schumacher or Senna.



The majority of people I have found DO think he was pretty good...and pretty special. Not the best...not the most intelligent behind the wheel (although he was very bright) but unique, and real. Unlike the haughty attitude with legs that was Schumi, or the laser like disdain Senna held some of his contempories in, GV was a good guy. Period. You know, considering that GV had no problems cheating on his wife, I have some doubts about how good a guy he was.



As for him being beat by Scheckter, basically team orders kept him from really fighting Jody hard at the end of the season. In a straight out no order's enviroment as you would see in Indycar or the old CART series, Gilles would have bashed clawed or just outright ran by Jody, and Jody knows it...
In which races did teamorders stop GV from beating JS? Maybe you mean Monza? Even if we give GV that, what races other than that?
If he would have destroyed JS so badly as you claim, why didnt he do that at the beginning of the season? Why did he struggle to outqualify JS?

[Garry Walker]

Facts show us that Villeneuve was beaten by all of his team-mates at one point or another, whether that be in qualifying, the race, or the championsip. That doesn't alter my opinion of him.
We are not talking about one race or two races, we are talking about a huge amount of races. If your opinion is so set on stone, that facts will not alter your opinion, why are you even bothering posting at a discussion forum?



In fact, Villeneuve's record against all his team-mates in qualifying is 40:28 in the Canadian's favour. You're right that Reutemann was faster, on 14 occasions in fact, when they were together at Ferrari in 1977/8.

You will of course agree that getting destroyed 4:14 in qualifying is quite bad for even an average driver, let alone for someone some people claim to be an all-time great.
40:28 in your whole career is a good record, but nothing that someone should be proud of when that person wants to be called an all-time great. Especially if we are talking about someone who was so hailed for his "speed".

[BDunnell]

We are not talking about one race or two races, we are talking about a huge amount of races. If your opinion is so set on stone, that facts will not alter your opinion, why are you even bothering posting at a discussion forum?

In which case, please offer us some examples from this discussion forum of when your open-mindedness has caused you to graciously admit that you were wrong and change your opinion.

[ArrowsFA1]

If your opinion is so set on stone, that facts will not alter your opinion, why are you even bothering posting at a discussion forum?
Very simply because, as I said earlier, facts in terms of the numbers being discussed here form just a part, not the whole, of the measure of 'greatness' in my opinion.

In fact, Villeneuve's record against all his team-mates in qualifying is 40:28 in the Canadian's favour.

Discount any of 1980's stats though, as Jody has said that he just wanted to get out alive.

Since you judge quotes and sayings above stats and facts, you already knew that, right?

James Hunt 1981 on Gilles Villeneuve -

"He is a genuine speed freak and he drives with enormous aggression and flair, but he seems unable to combine that with common sense."

I think any of the post-Zolder 1982 quotes should be viewed as being tinted by sentimentality.

[Saint Devote]

As for him being beat by Scheckter, basically team orders kept him from really fighting Jody hard at the end of the season. In a straight out no order's enviroment as you would see in Indycar or the old CART series, Gilles would have bashed clawed or just outright ran by Jody, and Jody knows it...

That is complete and utter nonsense. The agreement was not to fight and whoever was in front, then thats it - but still keep the pressure on - Ferrari's orders. It was not a Schumacher vs teammate situation at all.

Jody was outqualified 7- 8 by Gilles [but if only the races until Monza is counted in the race for the title Jody out qualified Gilles 7 - 6] and this is supposedly the great Gilles Villeneuve. And for the first few races Jody did not even TRY to outqualify Villeneuve.

Jody said that he saw how quick Villeneive was and decided as the season progressed he should try harder in qualifying. Jody has frequently alluded to this over the years when asked.

Jody and Gilles both won THREE grands prix, but Jody led most of the Kyalami race, with GV second, Jody initially on slicks while the rest of the field were on wets and only lost the race because his Michelins degraded and had to stop, finishing second.

At Monza where Jody clinched the title, he outqualified GV and won the race from the front.

Jody raced far better than Villeneuve.

If you know anything about Enzo Ferrari you will know that he forbid crashing into each other but encouraged drivers to RACE each other.

Yes, GV was a quick driver, he was loved by the tifosi, - but most of all he was spectacular and "putting on a show was his natural style" - but he certainly was not one of the best RACING drivers.

And in this sport, in the end, it is not the quickest driver that wins, but the cleverest.

[Saint Devote]

James Hunt 1981 on Gilles Villeneuve -

"He is a genuine speed freak and he drives with enormous aggression and flair, but he seems unable to combine that with common sense."

I think any of the post-Zolder 1982 quotes should be viewed as being tinted by sentimentality.

I agree with you - but I think it is remembering the best of GV such as his Watkins Glen lap.

To add, I think that there is an element of this in Lewis Hamilton. His collision with Massa at Albert Park - he gets the red mist, is the latest example. Hence he is always trying to get by.

I think that if Lewis does not begin tempering himself, it could end in tears.

Jody used to say that he worried because GV did things that he should not be doing at that stage of his career. It applies to Hamilton easily.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That is complete and utter nonsense. The agreement was not to fight and whoever was in front, then thats it - but still keep the pressure on - Ferrari's orders. It was not a Schumacher vs teammate situation at all.

Jody was outqualified 7- 8 by Gilles [but if only the races until Monza is counted in the race for the title Jody out qualified Gilles 7 - 6] and this is supposedly the great Gilles Villeneuve. And for the first few races Jody did not even TRY to outqualify Villeneuve.

Jody said that he saw how quick Villeneive was and decided as the season progressed he should try harder in qualifying. Jody has frequently alluded to this over the years when asked.

Jody and Gilles both won THREE grands prix, but Jody led most of the Kyalami race, with GV second, Jody initially on slicks while the rest of the field were on wets and only lost the race because his Michelins degraded and had to stop, finishing second.

At Monza where Jody clinched the title, he outqualified GV and won the race from the front.

Jody raced far better than Villeneuve.

If you know anything about Enzo Ferrari you will know that he forbid crashing into each other but encouraged drivers to RACE each other.

Yes, GV was a quick driver, he was loved by the tifosi, - but most of all he was spectacular and "putting on a show was his natural style" - but he certainly was not one of the best RACING drivers.

And in this sport, in the end, it is not the quickest driver that wins, but the cleverest.

I suppose so...but as a young teen, I remember seeing GV banging wheels with Arnoux, or his lap from no where in the rain at the Glen in that dog of a car T5, it is hard not to view him as anything but a surreal talent. That said, most of the critics of his style have a valid point...

Still, no other GP winner of only 6 races has the rep GV has...and it isn't all because he is no longer with us.

[F1boat]

From the outside (I haven't watch the old Villeneuve racing) it looks that GV was an amazing, very good driver, who had very attractive style of racing and that's why fans adore him. But as Garry pointed, he was likely not as great as Senna or M Schumacher, as the stats suggest.

[ArrowsFA1]

Since you judge quotes and sayings above stats and facts, you already knew that, right?
Where have I said I judge quotes and sayings above stats and facts? I'll answer that for you. I haven't. What I have said is - "facts in terms of the numbers being discussed here form just a part, not the whole, of the measure of 'greatness' in my opinion."

Here's a quote, with a built in fact, from David Hobbs having watched GV manhandling the 1981 Ferrari around Dijon: "That's genius. Are you seriously telling me he's won two Grand Prix in that?"

Where have I said I judge quotes and sayings above stats and facts? I'll answer that for you. I haven't. What I have said is - "facts in terms of the numbers being discussed here form just a part, not the whole, of the measure of 'greatness' in my opinion."

Here's a quote, with a built in fact, from David Hobbs having watched GV manhandling the 1981 Ferrari around Dijon: "That's genius. Are you seriously telling me he's won two Grand Prix in that?"

So facts are only a part of a subject? Well, it explains your opinion, I suppose.

As they said on Fleet Street - "never let facts get in the way of a good story".

But as for the other part of the subject, you ignore those "quotes" that reveal your "opinion" to be flawed, and despite believing that facts are only a part of the subject deliberately use stats when it suits you without acknowledging that there are direct quotes from a driver directly involved, not a sportscar driver commentating from afar, that the stats you chose to champion your opinion are deeply flawed.

You can have your cake and eat it, but the problem with that is it just makes you fat.

[ArrowsFA1]

...you ignore those "quotes" that reveal your "opinion" to be flawed...
Wrong again.

Clearly there were those who questioned GV's approach at the time. Those opinions are as valid as favourable quotes from drivers who raced with Villeneuve. I certainly don't dismiss or ignore them simply on the the basis that they do or don't fit my opinion. They, like the facts, form a part of the whole picture.

To repeat, I certainly don't consider GV to be the greatest F1 driver who ever lived because he had flaws that prevented him reaching that kind of standing. But equally those flaws, yes, made him exciting to watch and sometimes capable of doing things in a racing car that few, if any, others could do.

[ArrowsFA1]

I know. Having an opinion is bad enough, but that opinion not fitting facts cherry picked by others...shocking :p :laugh:

I know. Having an opinion is bad enough, but that opinion not fitting facts cherry picked by others...shocking :p :laugh:

Your relationship with facts isn't harmonious, though.......unless you've forgotten your laughable statements about Spygate.

Your opinion has been devoid of facts on so many occasions it has deemed it utterly worthless.

Much like Gilles, though, you are entertaining.

How dare you have an opinion Arrows!!!.. :p

Its the same old problem on here. People interpret 'great' using different criteria's, and some can't handle that. I made the mistake of not seeing Schumacher as the greatest of all time, and the claws came out in that instance too.. :)

Maybe you could cry to your friend Pino (he can't honestly be called a moderator, that takes the ability to rise above favourtism) again to get a thread closed when somebody doesn't agree with you?

After all, it must be 36 hours since you last couldn't cope with that.

[Mark]

Please keep the thread to the topic at hand, or this one will be closed too!

If I needed a quote to prove my point this would be it. :laugh:

You already proved mine.

Pathetic little Troll.

Sorry Mark, but he is.

[markabilly]

Please keep the thread to the topic at hand, or this one will be closed too!
Okay, back to topic and no more spouting rhetorical garbage. I am a driver who has never been beaten by a team mate. Not even once. Of course all my team mates were much younger and smaller and none have yet to learn to drive a car.

[ShiftingGears]

Okay, back to topic and no more spouting rhetorical garbage. I am a driver who has never been beaten by a team mate. Not even once. Of course all my team mates were much younger and smaller and none have yet to learn to drive a car.

markabilly 2011 WDC?

[BeansBeansBeans]

DSJ reckoned the greatest drivers of all time were Nuvolari, Fangio, Clark, Villeneuve & Senna and he knew of what he spoke.

For me Gilles was a Matt le Tissier character. An artist at his chosen sport, incredibly talented and on his day capable of making his opponents look like amateurs by comparison. Ultimately, he didn't care for baubles and didn't win much.

[SGWilko]

Why don't you just become a driver in a single car team?

Simples.

[SGWilko]

Maybe you could cry to your friend Pino (he can't honestly be called a moderator, that takes the ability to rise above favourtism) again to get a thread closed when somebody doesn't agree with you?

After all, it must be 36 hours since you last couldn't cope with that.

Oh Tamb - I was having a really shyte day until I read your post about an hour ago. I've only just picked myself up off the floor having been in hysterics as a result.

[SGWilko]

If I needed a quote to prove my point this would be it. :laugh:

I didn't ask for a thread to be closed because someone disagreed with me, it was closed because it was no longer discussing the subject at hand. The thread in question is still in a read only form if you wish to see for yourself.

For once it wasn't you spouting rhetorical garbage, and insulting everyone in ear shot who doesn't agree with you.

DOn't listem to him Henners, he doesn't even know himself.

Lord knows what would happen if he lost his instruction cards - breathe in, breathe out, repeat.

[Garry Walker]

In which case, please offer us some examples from this discussion forum of when your open-mindedness has caused you to graciously admit that you were wrong and change your opinion.

Only if you ask very nicely and beg


Discount any of 1980's stats though, as Jody has said that he just wanted to get out alive.

Since you judge quotes and sayings above stats and facts, you already knew that, right?
:up:


DSJ reckoned the greatest drivers of all time were Nuvolari, Fangio, Clark, Villeneuve & Senna and he knew of what he spoke.


We should play "who doesnt belong in the group" with that list of names.



To repeat, I certainly don't consider GV to be the greatest F1 driver who ever lived because he had flaws that prevented him reaching that kind of standing. But equally those flaws, yes, made him exciting to watch and sometimes capable of doing things in a racing car that few, if any, others could do.

Is one of those flaws his lack of speed? If not (in your view), then how do you explain his qualifying record against his teammates, which is very un-impressive compared to guys like Senna and Schumacher?

[SGWilko]

We should play "who doesnt belong in the group" with that list of names.

Humpty Dumpty???? Dunno, give us a clue.

[Garry Walker]

Humpty Dumpty???? Dunno, give us a clue.

I will give you a clue nr.1 - he had difficulties beating him teammates most of the time.
Clue nr.2 - crashed to death when his teammate was beating him in qualifying.

[jens]

Considering the endless talk about "overrated vs underrated" it must be said that it is in human nature to have a tendency of slightly overrating drivers with "spectacular style". Besides G.Villeneuve Mansell is another such example. Probably the so-called overrating derives from the notion that people tend to put too much emphasis on "interesting character" and crazy moves among other driver's characteristics.

As for the title of the thread, I have to add that Trulli has never been beaten by a team-mate in Monaco qualifying! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

I will give you a clue nr.1 - he had difficulties beating him teammates most of the time.
Garry, he outqualified his team-mates 40-28. Now, if you want to do a tamburello and cherry pick a particular year that doesn't fit your view to change that margin then fine, but the fact is Villeneuve beat his team-mates in qualifying most of the time.

It may not have happened as often as you'd expect for him to be considered among the 'greats' of F1, but I'm not sure I've seen a poll in which GV is rated higher than drivers you've mentioned such as Senna or Schumacher. In Autosport's drivers poll (http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=1) Villeneuve is rated 10th, which seems about right to me given those ahead of him in that list.

[jens]

Garry, he outqualified his team-mates 40-28. Now, if you want to do a tamburello and cherry pick a particular year that doesn't fit your view to change that margin then fine, but the fact is Villeneuve beat his team-mates in qualifying most of the time.

It may not have happened as often as you'd expect for him to be considered among the 'greats' of F1, but I'm not sure I've seen a poll in which GV is rated higher than drivers you've mentioned such as Senna or Schumacher. In Autosport's drivers poll (http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=1) Villeneuve is rated 10th, which seems about right to me given those ahead of him in that list.

Considering that Scheckter is nowhere to be found in Top40, the list is a bit of a joke. I consider Scheckter to be among the better drivers of F1 in the 70's - a bit like GV in his brief "prime" - so I don't think Villeneuve should be embarrassed about narrowly getting beaten by Jody in '79 in his second full F1 season. But well... time for the rightful question again - who is really underrated/overrated? :s mokin:

Garry, he outqualified his team-mates 40-28. Now, if you want to do a tamburello and cherry pick a particular year that doesn't fit your view to change that margin then fine, but the fact is Villeneuve beat his team-mates in qualifying most of the time..

You talk about me cherry picking yet you do exactly the same.

you have cherry-picked to ignore Scheckter's self-acknowledged lack of motivation and cherry-picked the 1980 stats to support your point of view

You, sir, obviously grew up on a fruit farm, because you can cherry pick and not even realise you do it.

And that isn't opinion, that is fact, as proven by your own quote.

Oh Tamb - I was having a really shyte day

Presumably because you & Henners refused a room at a Bed & Breakfast?

[ArrowsFA1]

you have cherry-picked to ignore Scheckter's self-acknowledged lack of motivation and cherry-picked the 1980 stats to support your point of view
Wrong for the third time in one thread. I'll repeat what I said in response to a previous (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=779424&postcount=40) error of yours - I certainly don't dismiss or ignore them simply on the the basis that they do or don't fit my opinion. They, like the facts, form a part of the whole picture.

You really don't help your cause with comments like this, and if we now have to add homophobia your list of unsavory personality traits, then I feel sorry for you I really do.

Pathetic.

Presumably you have criticised Wilko for his comments too....no, didn't think so.

Hypocrite as usual.

They, like the facts, form a part of the whole picture.

But unlike facts, they form the part of the picture you focus on.

Same as with every opinion of yours.

[ArrowsFA1]

But unlike facts, they form the part of the picture you focus on.
Unlike yourself...

Discount any of 1980's stats though, as Jody has said that he just wanted to get out alive.

I think any of the post-Zolder 1982 quotes should be viewed as being tinted by sentimentality.
...I'm quite happy to look at the whole picture as I think I've shown by saying I certainly don't consider GV to be the greatest F1 driver who ever lived, and by agreeing with the Autosport drivers poll assessment of where Villeneuve sits among the 'greats'.

It is a fact that the 1980 stats are rendered invalid due to Scheckters prime interest no longer being racing.

That is not an opinion, that is fact.

It is a fact that no-one spoke ill of Gilles after his death but it is also a fact that sentiment and sympathy have effects on how colleagues describe a friend but hide the reality.



...I'm quite happy to look at the whole picture as I think I've shown by saying I certainly don't consider GV to be the greatest F1 driver who ever lived, and by agreeing with the Autosport drivers poll assessment of where Villeneuve sits among the 'greats'.

Agreeing with the cretinous multitude who form Autosports readership isn't a virtue or something to promote.

Another fact for you.

[ArrowsFA1]

Agreeing with the cretinous multitude who form Autosports readership isn't a virtue or something to promote.

Another fact for you.
Wrong for the fourth time.

The poll to which I referred (and linked) was made up of the opinions of drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 world championship.

The poll to which I referred (and linked) was made up of the opinions of drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 world championship.

Opinions, not facts.

What a surprise.

Any "poll" that has the opinion of Jackie Stewart in it is immediately rendered insignificant.

Wrong for the fourth time.

As it is opposed to being wrong every time you touch the keyboard, it's not a bad percentage.

[Garry Walker]

Garry, he outqualified his team-mates 40-28. Now, if you want to do a tamburello and cherry pick a particular year that doesn't fit your view to change that margin then fine, but the fact is Villeneuve beat his team-mates in qualifying most of the time.

I am not cherry-picking anything, I am just saying that for a man who was supposedly known for his awesome speed, not consistency or anything like that, that qualifying record is awful. Just compare the records of Senna, Clark and Schumacher with his.
It is also so that by 1980 JS didnt care at all about F1 anymore.



It may not have happened as often as you'd expect for him to be considered among the 'greats' of F1, but I'm not sure I've seen a poll in which GV is rated higher than drivers you've mentioned such as Senna or Schumacher. In Autosport's drivers poll (http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=1) Villeneuve is rated 10th, which seems about right to me given those ahead of him in that list.
Why is Reutemann, the guy who destroyed Villeneuve in equal cars, so much lower? No driver with so little success should get anywhere near top 10. It is also BS argument that he never had a good enough car to show his skills - his teammate became the WORLD CHAMPION.

I looked at the list and I think there is easily a case made for almost everyone in the top 20-25 to be rated HIGHER than villeneuve.
In fact, I just looked at the list again and out of the top 22, I would rate them all higher than GV.

Presumably because you & Henners refused a room at a Bed & Breakfast?

:rotflmao:


Wrong for the third time in one thread. I'll repeat what I said in response to a previous (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=779424&postcount=40) error of yours - I certainly don't dismiss or ignore them simply on the the basis that they do or don't fit my opinion. They, like the facts, form a part of the whole picture.

So how important are driver quotes in comparison to facts? 50:50? 70:30?


Wrong for the fourth time.

The poll to which I referred (and linked) was made up of the opinions of drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 world championship.

Most of those drivers having very little knowledge of F1 history.

[Rollo]

Definitively there is only a handful of drivers according to my database of all 853 Grands Prix who were never beaten by their team mate, and the driver who competed in the most GP's was Jo Gartner.

[BeansBeansBeans]

It is a fact that the 1980 stats are rendered invalid due to Scheckters prime interest no longer being racing.

That is not an opinion, that is fact.

Erm, no it isn't, it is an opinion.

[BDunnell]

Forgive me for being naive, but why on earth are some of the comments — again telling us far, far more about the highly unpleasant personal neuroses of the people making those comments than the subject in hand — being tolerated by the moderators? Increasingly, I am being turned off any topic in the F1 forum in which one individual (and I don't mean ioan this time) contributes.

I'm going to end this post here, lest I receive an insulting and weird PM from him in Italian.

[markabilly]

markabilly 2011 WDC?
:D very smart man, and unlike to Dunnel, I will not say anything to you in italian :D



Why don't you just become a driver in a single car team?

Simples.
Hush your mouth child, you will give away my secret (and all what Shuie ever wanted in his dreams..)



Forgive me for being naive, but why on earth are some of the comments — again telling us far, far more about the highly unpleasant personal neuroses of the people making those comments than the subject in hand — being tolerated by the moderators? Increasingly, I am being turned off any topic in the F1 forum in which one individual (and I don't mean ioan this time) contributes.

I'm going to end this post here, lest I receive an insulting and weird PM from him in Italian.

Let me be first...La fermata, lei fa troppo senso marca


esp before this thread gets snapped shut...

[Rollo]

Il mio veicolo a cuscino d'aria è pieno di anguille :D

[pino]

I am also closing this, and from today I will (re)start to ban people for taking threads off-topic. Make sure you remember that !