DeltaWing claims validation in wind tunnel test

[bblocker68]

Per Racer Magazine http://www.racer.com/ :

http://www.racer.com/deltawing-claims-validation-in-wind-tunnel-test/article/167619/


DeltaWing LLC announced the initial results of its first full-size model test in the state-of-the-art Windshear wind tunnel, run on Tuesday in Concord, N.C.

“The test was a huge success and confirmed the trends of our advanced computational fluid dynamics modeling,” said Ben Bowlby, designer and chief technology officer of DeltaWing. “We are very pleased that the results in the wind tunnel support our CFD findings. This is a critical step for the project and allows us to move forward towards a final design with the growing confidence gained from these results. We continue to believe that the car will respond on the racetrack as our simulations have predicted over the past 16 months. We are more convinced than ever that the DeltaWing concept will meet or exceed the parameters that the IZOD IndyCar Series has established for the 2012 chassis.”

The full-size model used Firestone tires that were specifically manufactured for the DeltaWing car and completed the majority of the test at wind and road speeds of 140mph.

“The test could not have gone any better,” said Bowlby. “The Firestone tires were excellent and it is a testament to their advanced design andmanufacturing technology that they were able to create these tires in such a compressed time frame. Firestone is a great partner to work with.”

The moving ground plane roadway of the Windshear facility was also put to use in analyzing wet condition spray patterns from the front wheels. The test established that spray off the narrow front wheels is minimal and will not interfere with the driver's vision in rainy conditions. The design of the body around the wheels dramatically reduces spray, improving visibility and safety in the rain, according to the company.

“Given the extensive aerodynamic data that we now have about the DeltaWing car, we believe that a four-cylinder turbocharged engine with approximately 300 to 350 horsepower will meet the performance requirements of the IZOD IndyCar Series for the 2012 chassis, doing so with only half the fuel consumption of today's car,” said Dan Partel, CEO of DeltaWing. "This is the engine design and displacement direction that the entire automobile industry is pursuing, and we think it makes our car's performance very relevant to the general public.”

DeltaWing's proposal is one of five bidding to become the next generation of Indy cars.

[beachbum]

It still looks weird.

[Chris R]

It still looks weird.

I don't disagree - but they called the rear engine cars "funny cars" when they first appeared because they looked so odd to them.... also - to my eye a classic roadster looks somewhat out of proportion ..... my point being - I think the final product would grow on us just fine as long as it does its job really well....

[chuck34]

I don't disagree - but they called the rear engine cars "funny cars" when they first appeared because they looked so odd to them.... also - to my eye a classic roadster looks somewhat out of proportion ..... my point being - I think the final product would grow on us just fine as long as it does its job really well....

I'd be fine with it if it had to compete, and win against more traditional cars. That way it will have proven itself. However, if it is mandated into being, it will always be a "funny car" to me, and I don't think it'll grow on me

[downtowndeco]

I don't care if the car will go 300 mph, get 22 mpg, cost $150k & will produce a field of 44 cars. I simply don't care. The car is just straight up no way around it butt ugly. I'm still waiting for them to announce that it is a joke. Seriously. I can't believe that Robin Miller is actually supportive of this car. Can't believe it. He's gotta have some sort of angle he's working.

No offence to the designers of this car. I know you worked hard on it & I'm sure it's a technological wonder. But man, it just looks like a bad "Speed Racer" cartoon buggy.

[TURN3]

I don't care if the car will go 300 mph, get 22 mpg, cost $150k & will produce a field of 44 cars. I simply don't care. The car is just straight up no way around it butt ugly. I'm still waiting for them to announce that it is a joke. Seriously. I can't believe that Robin Miller is actually supportive of this car. Can't believe it. He's gotta have some sort of angle he's working.

No offence to the designers of this car. I know you worked hard on it & I'm sure it's a technological wonder. But man, it just looks like a bad "Speed Racer" cartoon buggy.

x2

[Chris R]

I'd be fine with it if it had to compete, and win against more traditional cars. That way it will have proven itself. However, if it is mandated into being, it will always be a "funny car" to me, and I don't think it'll grow on me
true - and this is the problem with spec racing in general - racing is no longer a proving ground for new ideas and technology - it is a political circus just like the rest of the world..... :(

[Chris R]

The car might not win any beauty contests - but I have to think the final version will take these aesthetic concerns into account.... really if they just clean up the awkward looking rear it might not look so funky and once it is painted up properly it might also show a little better..... A Dalalra in silver is not beauty but I have to say some of the paint jobs have made it looks almsot decent.... ;)

[downtowndeco]

The car might not win any beauty contests - but I have to think the final version will take these aesthetic concerns into account.... really if they just clean up the awkward looking rear it might not look so funky and once it is painted up properly it might also show a little better..... A Dalalra in silver is not beauty but I have to say some of the paint jobs have made it looks almsot decent.... ;)


Here's the problem as I see it. If they "clean up" or substancially change the look of the DW it is no longer a DW & will not have the same aerodynamic qualities that they built into the original. All you have then is a weird, ugly car.

[SarahFan]

I don't care if the car will go 300 mph, get 22 mpg, cost $150k & will produce a field of 44 cars. I simply don't care. The car is just straight up no way around it butt ugly. I'm still waiting for them to announce that it is a joke. Seriously. I can't believe that Robin Miller is actually supportive of this car. Can't believe it. He's gotta have some sort of angle he's working.

No offence to the designers of this car. I know you worked hard on it & I'm sure it's a technological wonder. But man, it just looks like a bad "Speed Racer" cartoon buggy.

damn.... your best post by a large margin in years...

nice job!

[SarahFan]

take it ALMS....becuase it simply aint an open wheel indy car...period

[slorydn1]

UGLY and WAY under-powered:


Given the extensive aerodynamic data that we now have about the DeltaWing car, we believe that a four-cylinder turbocharged engine with approximately 300 to 350 horsepower will meet the performance requirements of the IZOD IndyCar Series for the 2012 chassis...........

This is supposed to be a race car....My F-150 has 300 hp, and sounds a lot better than a turbo-4 ever could

[pits4me]

Shades of Campbell's Bluebird? The Delta Wing is a refreshing look for a series way overdue for a design overhaul. Too bad Indy is closed to open innovation. Lets get some excitement back in the brickyard.

[Chris R]

Here's the problem as I see it. If they "clean up" or substancially change the look of the DW it is no longer a DW & will not have the same aerodynamic qualities that they built into the original. All you have then is a weird, ugly car.

you might be right - but the mock ups of say the 1980 Eagle looked a lot more like the DW than the final product - I am also thinking (maybe incorrectly) that some of the bulk in the rear is coming from the car being "cast" out of a big hunk of plastic or whatever it is...

basically I do not disagree with our overall thoughts and concerns - I am just trying to see the best in the concept and I really do believe that the sport needs something like the DW to move forward and make a break from the present era that has pretty much lasted the better part of 40 years...

[SarahFan]

Shades of Campbell's Bluebird? The Delta Wing is a refreshing look for a series way overdue for a design overhaul. Too bad Indy is closed to open innovation. Lets get some excitement back in the brickyard.

I can get on with that!

but if some can roll out the current dallara...a 95 reynard.... or a 2012 Swift and kicks its ass then so be it...

if you want innovation and excitement back.... then a single chassis is surely going to be a buzz kill

[slorydn1]

I can get on with that!

but if some can roll out the current dallara...a 95 reynard.... or a 2012 Swift and kicks its ass then so be it...

if you want innovation and excitement back.... then a single chassis is surely going to be a buzz kill

amen to that :up:

[FormerFF]

I STILL want to see it turn.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I STILL want to see it turn.

Ditto, but it is a very interesting. As for what is an Indycar, if we didn't have this ridiculous notion of no innovation allowed, we might have had 3 or 4 chassis on the track all along and maybe the Delta Wing would have shown up in May and proved itself, in the same way Brabham's Cooper up ended up the notion of what a race car should look like.

I missed the old Roadster era by a year, the last year one won at Indy was the year before I was born. That said, it looked like a race car. The Lotus that won in 65 with Jim Clark also looked the part. So did AJ's Coyote, the Chapparel that Rutherford won with, the Penske's that ruled with Rick Mears, the Reynard JV won with and the Dallaras. There is an evolution. The Delta Wing looks like the Evolution skipped a few steps, but I get what it is about, and unlike some of you, it looks too interesting to dismiss.

[call_me_andrew]

I don't care if the car will go 300 mph, get 22 mpg, cost $150k & will produce a field of 44 cars. I simply don't care. The car is just straight up no way around it butt ugly. I'm still waiting for them to announce that it is a joke. Seriously. I can't believe that Robin Miller is actually supportive of this car. Can't believe it. He's gotta have some sort of angle he's working.

No offence to the designers of this car. I know you worked hard on it & I'm sure it's a technological wonder. But man, it just looks like a bad "Speed Racer" cartoon buggy.

It reminds me of the South Park episode "The Entity" in which Mr. Garrison invents a new type of vechile that can go 200 miles per hour and get 300 miles per gallon. The drawback is that it is controled by a series of flexi-grip handles inserted into the mouth and anus, but is still considered better than anything you have to go through at the airport.

The designers keep repeating that their design is supposed to represent a concept of not only vehicle, but buisness model. I just want them to tell me how exactly the product on track won't resemble a fleet of batmobiles.

[Jag_Warrior]

http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID31218/images/DeltaWing3_-_EX.jpg

*lulz*


...we believe that a four-cylinder turbocharged engine with approximately 300 to 350 horsepower will meet the performance requirements.

If any of the 2012-13 IRL teams are interested, I have a spare 2.0 liter WRX engine in the garage. Once we go through it, we figure to get between 325-350 horsepower from it. If they can't come up with all cash, I've been known to take guns and elk meat in trade too. Call BR5-49... and ask for J.W. or Junior. :p

[harvick#1]

that has a turning radius of a NHRA drag car :laugh: they look like they will have to go around turns at around 35 mph, which may make Milka a threat on tracks now :laugh:

[V12]

I'd be fine with it if it had to compete, and win against more traditional cars. That way it will have proven itself. However, if it is mandated into being, it will always be a "funny car" to me, and I don't think it'll grow on me

Totally agree, that's the WHOLE point. Surely the rear-engined cars that emerged at Indy in the early to mid 60s would have remained the butt of jokes if they hadn't taken on and beaten the traditional cars on the track, rather than in a decision made by a committee with a stupid backronym for a name.

[Hoss Ghoul]

You can tell about a person based on how much the "looks" of a car concerns them over its ability to perform. There's a relevance ratio.

[Mark in Oshawa]

You can tell about a person based on how much the "looks" of a car concerns them over its ability to perform. There's a relevance ratio.

That was my point. I want to see this sucker run before I declare I don't want it as an Indycar. I still want it run against other ideas tho....

[anthonyvop]

Innovation and multiple chassis cost money....Sponsorship Money.
Sponsorship money is something that is in short supply right now.

I dislike "spec" chassis racing in what is suppose to be a premier series but until the ICS can provide a marketable product the only way to go is with a spec series.

[Shifter]

that has a turning radius of a NHRA drag car :laugh: they look like they will have to go around turns at around 35 mph, which may make Milka a threat on tracks now :laugh:

Good one, and perhaps a logical point lol.

[vintage]

The title of this thread is shocking - I was expecting that the guys that designed it would come out and say "we were shocked that the thing turned out to be a piece of crap in the wind tunnel".

The wind tunnel test proves nothing - other than they created a relatively low drag monstrosity.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The title of this thread is shocking - I was expecting that the guys that designed it would come out and say "we were shocked that the thing turned out to be a piece of crap in the wind tunnel".

The wind tunnel test proves nothing - other than they created a relatively low drag monstrosity.

Ya..people take cars to expensive rolling road wind tunnels just for fun all the time. You think they wont be publishing their findings to make their case? You think it was just about drag? If the IRL keeps yapping about 300 hp Indycars, then maybe it was...and I will be not a fan if they put a mouse motor in these things.

[Chamoo]

Delta Wing Wind Tunnel Test Video (http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/daily-planet/april-2010/daily-planet---april-26-2010/#clip294528)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Chamoo...I watched it...and the science of it and his theories behind it all make sense...in a straight line. I think in road/street courses, that front end WONT work. I think this is a very nice idea...that wont make it when the real model hits the track.

This reminds me of in the early 80's some engineer thought a race car could have two pontoon like pods with a huge center tunnel. All the mechanicals were on one side, fuel and driver were on the other...and it was a Can Am Car. It hit the track..and was awful. The engineers were clearly convinced it could work...and it didn't.

Ditto with Panoz and their front engined ALMS car.....great idea in theory..the practical reality is it didn't quite work.

I put this car down in that category...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Isn't the general idea to reduce down force in the corners? To make the racing better and the drivers have to actually drive the car? So what's wrong with it then?

I don't quibble with it in principle Starter. I just don't see that narrow track really working. There is no real downforce on the front. No wing up there...so those front wheels are relying on the downforce of chassis aero to push them down. That narrow track really is the controversial thing about this car. Until I see a working model of that car on the track cornering in various radii corners, I remain a an optimistic skeptic. The goal of what Bowlby is aiming for in reducing turbulence, increasing speed through better drag number is fantastic. The problem is...there is no such thing as a free lunch. I cant buy into it 100%...and I have said so much about how much I want to see something like this work. The goals he has set out are SO laudable.....

[beachbum]

We don't race wind tunnels (thank goodness). While areo is an element of the whole car, mechanical grip is still as important as always. The size of the contact patch has a direct correlation to traction. With the skinny front tires, the overall traction will probably be less. Sure you can turn the car with torque vectoring, but will it stick? If the tires have enough grip to offset the smaller contact patch, will they last? What happens in a slide if the back breaks loose? The computers handling the vectoring will be working overtime. What happens over a rise on a road course where one end gets light?

What about the moment of inertia? How will that impact turning and stability? How will the narrow front end impact the forces acting on the chassis in a turn? With the narrow front suspension, how do you get any reasonable suspension geometry? Lot of questions that can't be answered in a wind tunnel, and probably only partially answered on a computer. Contrary to popular myth, a computer can only simulate reality, it can't completely map all of the nuances.

A perfect case to explain the large impact of relatively small changes is in F1 this year. The front tires are only slightly narrower. Mercedes has to build a new car because their weight distribution is slightly off and the tuning window is too narrow.

While the Delta Wing has some laudable ideas, it would takes years of real world development to figure out all of the subtleties. IMHO, the IRL can't afford the costs (time, money, and effort) for that kind of development.

[DanicaFan]

This car will turn terrible. It wont make it a real-life track test, especially a road course.

Im not worried, this ugly thing will never see a green flag in an Indycar race. ;)

[ShiftingGears]

that has a turning radius of a NHRA drag car :laugh: they look like they will have to go around turns at around 35 mph, which may make Milka a threat on tracks now :laugh:

I wonder if they will resort to Scandinavian flicks if the 3-point turns aren't effective.

[SoCalPVguy]

Wind tunnel wind schmunnel, lets see it turn in real life with those small narrow-set tires trying to offset the forces for the large-contact-patch wide-track rear wheels. I won't.

[Mark in Oshawa]

This car will turn terrible. It wont make it a real-life track test, especially a road course.

Im not worried, this ugly thing will never see a green flag in an Indycar race. ;)

On the surface, I explained more or less why I agree with you DF...but remember the guy building this isn't some neophyte. He has a pedigree as an engineer in the industry and he works for Ganassi. Somehow I think he is thinking of all of this..and thinks he has it licked.

WE have to see it run in reality before we put the nails in the coffin.