Michelin close to Formula 1 return

[Somebody]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601077&sid=aji.NnsmoO.U

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/02/12/michelin-to-get-the-last-laugh/
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/02/michelin-admits-talks-about-f1-return/

[Sonic]

Well its nice that someone wants to supply F1 with tyres.

[V12]

Would be nice if it was Michelin and A N Other(s), oh well

[Saint Devote]

I hope that if Michelin are seeking to be the F1 tyre they insist on tyres that will last the entire distance and the artificial pit stop era will come to absolute end.

Supplying perhaps two types of tyres one softer the other harder for all teams during a weekend that last an entire race distance. Also used for practice and setting grid times would see a return to the time when drivers had to use their ability to conserve tyres.

I am pleased that the refuelling BS is now gone and so ought the tyre changes.

If Michelin is the only company willing then they will be able to set the rules - more power to them. I hope the FIA squirm and squeal under this pressure and threat of not having a tyre for 2011.

It is already very late in the day and hopefully any Michelin interest means a plan is already in place.

I just hope we do not end up with some quirky named Korean tyre - this is F1 and it ought to mean top traditional brand names. Keep EUROPE dominant in F1 - its where the fan base is!!!

[philipbain]

Michelin coming back would be fantastic, lets face it, by the end of thier last stint in F1 they had Bridgestone well and truely bossed, thrashing Bridgestone in 2005 when Mad Max decreed that tyre stops were banned and then again in 2006 when for me they were the key difference maker in the battle between Renault and Ferarri for the title.

Some of the teams and drivers have been critical of Bridgestone's F1 products since they became the sole supplier, with complaints that the tyres werent exactly pushing the envelope in terms of either grip or durability, I feel having Michelin back would throw the emphassis back on innovation, which is good for both Michelin and F1.

[52Paddy]

It's nice to see the return of the Michelin name, but I hate this sole-supplier business. It would be so good to see a full mix of suppliers from the past and do away with the tyre stops. That will really test how good each tyre manufacturer is with competition in durability (having to last a full race) and performance. One can dream :angel:

[call_me_andrew]

Why is everyone so down on pit stops? They're the best part of the race; we get to watch people working on cars!

[Easy Drifter]

I can't remember if I posted on here a while back that I figured if there was only one tire supplier that they would dictate to F1/FIA just what the tire rules will be. I know I wrote an article in it for www.thegarageblog.com (http://www.thegarageblog.com)
Anyway it only makes sense as they will want to keep their costs down.
Probably only 2 or 3 compounds for the year and tires capable of going the race distance. Quite possibly greatly reduced number of sets provided per car per weekend.

[52Paddy]

Why is everyone so down on pit stops? They're the best part of the race; we get to watch people working on cars!

Personally myself, I think the best part of the race is when the cars are actually racing. On the track, overtaking, out-breaking, flat out through fast sections and accompanied by the sound of a screaming V8 :cool:

But don't let me speak for everyone - I do miss the V12s though :(

[jens]

If Michelin comes back, maybe Renault can once again become a serious force in F1? After all, they seem to have lost their mojo after Michelin's departure.

[Sonic]

Why is everyone so down on pit stops? They're the best part of the race; we get to watch people working on cars!

I too enjoy the drama of pitstops but I do not like the fact they are compulsory. I would LOVE it if the new tyre company could provide a tyre that was surable enough for a whole GP but also a considerable faster but fast wearing compound that would require a couple of stops. It would have to be carefully designed so that both tyres had very similar overall race times.

[SGWilko]

I too enjoy the drama of pitstops but I do not like the fact they are compulsory. I would LOVE it if the new tyre company could provide a tyre that was surable enough for a whole GP but also a considerable faster but fast wearing compound that would require a couple of stops. It would have to be carefully designed so that both tyres had very similar overall race times.

Back in the late 80's/early 90's, when Pirelli were a supplier in addition to Goodyear, i think the Pirelli's were fast (although they never supplied to a particularly fast team) but wore quickly. The teams using them did not benefit.....

[Sonic]

Back in the late 80's/early 90's, when Pirelli were a supplier in addition to Goodyear, i think the Pirelli's were fast (although they never supplied to a particularly fast team) but wore quickly. The teams using them did not benefit.....

Yeah, but I was thinking about a sole supplier - as you say multiple suppliers is a different game.

But based on the presumption that we'll have a single manufacturer for a while I'd like to seea car that has chosen the faster tyre having to overtake (perhaps multiple times) to beat the non stoppers. That's just me though. :)

[call_me_andrew]

Personally myself, I think the best part of the race is when the cars are actually racing. On the track, overtaking, out-breaking, flat out through fast sections and accompanied by the sound of a screaming V8 :cool:

But don't let me speak for everyone - I do miss the V12s though :(

Overtaking? Outbreaking? I think you have the wrong forum, we're talking about F1.

[F1boat]

Why is everyone so down on pit stops? They're the best part of the race; we get to watch people working on cars!

I agree. I love pit duels.

[leopard]

I agree. I love pit duels.

+1

[SGWilko]

Don't we only love pit duels because, generally, cock all else happens on track?

[555-04Q2]

I dont want to see Michelin back in F1. The 2005 USGP fiasco still sits badly with me.

[Mark]

No refuelling and no stopping for tyres? F1 can be really dull sometimes and the only action we get is when the cars pit, we've seen quite a few races won due to the skill of the drivers on their in/out laps.

To suggest that would be taken away it would just make F1 incredibly dull. A car can't get past, with no hope of ever doing so for the entire race. :mark:

[ShiftingGears]

I'd like to see Michelin back.

[Saint Devote]

Why is everyone so down on pit stops? They're the best part of the race; we get to watch people working on cars!

Pit stops that are required for artifical reasons - must use two sets of tyres - accomplishes nothing. Formula One is the highest test and demonstration of a drivers ability, pit stops detract from that and pretend that it is a "team sport" - emotionalist nonsense.

This means not only being the quickest but also entails the ability to reach the finish.

People like myself, who went to grands prix before they could see over the dining room table remember the excitement of races where drivers did not have to stop.

It REALLY WAS more exciting to see a driver lead for example and over a race distance be caught up and the battle as first place was fought for - whether the psoition was gained or lost was immaterial.

That is motor racing and why the fixation with overtaking "problems" is ridiculous. There is only a problem because the natural way of grand prix racing has been interfered with.

But I am a purist, who holds the history of motor racing as neccessary to appreciating and understanding the present and, I realize in today's terms where too many people have the concentration of a gnat, a dinosaur :D

[savage86]

I would like to see Michelin back, towards the end only two teams were not running them I think in 2006.

Also the whole Indy 2005 problem was not the only example. In Nascar there was a total farce a couple of years ago, where Goodyear could not get their tyres to last more than 10 laps before blowing up.
I think this happend two years in a row, Michelin were no more to blame than the track or the sport itself for not being able to make a compromise. Proving that the teams and FIA care more about cash and contracts than the sport side of it.

[wedge]

If Michelin comes back, maybe Renault can once again become a serious force in F1? After all, they seem to have lost their mojo after Michelin's departure.

No. There's no point for a tyre manufacturer to favour team(s) when there is no tyre war just as Bridgestone have done post-2006.

[V12]

That is motor racing and why the fixation with overtaking "problems" is ridiculous.

+1



...sod it, +infinity

[driveace]

Well if Michelin are intending to make a come back into F1 will it be as "Michelin" or as B.F.Goodrich as they converted to in their supply of Rally car Tyres.I understood the name change was done as Michelin did not NEED to be seen as involved in "Motor Sport"

[V12]

I always thought BF Goodrich were their "off-road" brand, i.e. rallying and also the Dakar-style events. Having said that they did use that brand in the BTCC a few years ago...

[call_me_andrew]

They've used B.F. Goodrich in oval racing.

[billiaml]

Goodrich tyres can be found in:

Ford Racing Mustang Challenge
BFGoodrich/Skip Barber National Presented by Mazda
Skip Barber Regional Race Series
Skip Barber MAZDASPEED
Playboy Mazda MX-5 Cup
National Mustang Racers Association
National Muscle Car Association
Formula D
United Speed Alliance Racing

which puts them on road courses & drag strips as well. ;)

[AndyRAC]

Personally, I'd like to see them back - as well as others, F1 isn't meant to be a 'spec' series. The more the merrier.
In fact, the ALMS is the only 'major' Motorsport, 2/4 wheels, on/off road that has an open spec tyre.

[ArrowsFA1]

Michelin is closing in on a deal to return to Formula 1 next year, AUTOSPORT has learned, but it may not be as a standard tyre supplier.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82586

Sounds like the FIA are maybe thinking of moving away from just one supplier.

[christophulus]

If they're getting a new supplier then it's the ideal time to change the tyre specifications and get a bit of variety - it shouldn't be possible to do the whole race on the "soft" tyre. Maybe they could do away with tyre warmers too.

Let's see how the FIA handles this..

[V12]

Just read the story, I'm not going to hold my breath but this would be fantastic news if we got our tyre wars back :D :D :D

I'm naturally pessimistic about this happening, but to be fair while the FIA deserves much criticism, it has proven willing in recent years to put right mistakes it had made in the past, with banning refuelling, bringing back slicks, and allowing new teams in. So we'll see :)

[Mia 01]

This is great.

Bring back the Michelins for next year. Kimi always did good use for them!

[Giuseppe F1]

April Fools, perhaps?

[Big Ben]

Tyre war between Michellin and.. well.. I've just read the article and forget the name of the other two.. Who's gonna pic x and y over Michellin?

[veeten]

Who's gonna pic x and y over Michellin?

teams that can't afford Michelin, most notably the smaller teams.

This is where other companies can get a place in F1 by supplying those teams and get their name out there in the public, especially those that are in Sportscar & GT racing. For them, it's the next evolutionary step.

[V12]

April Fools, perhaps?

You had me worried for a few seconds there!! However the story broke after 12.

[Hawkmoon]

Michelin returning? Good thing Indianapolis isn't on the calender anymore! :D

[Saint Devote]

Just read the story, I'm not going to hold my breath but this would be fantastic news if we got our tyre wars back :D :D :D

I'm naturally pessimistic about this happening, but to be fair while the FIA deserves much criticism, it has proven willing in recent years to put right mistakes it had made in the past, with banning refuelling, bringing back slicks, and allowing new teams in. So we'll see :)

I agree with you :D

The worst would be a sole supplier without a name related in any way to motor racing, such as "Khumo" tyre [shudder!!!]

[maximilian]

I agree with you :D

The worst would be a sole supplier without a name related in any way to motor racing, such as "Khumo" [sic] tyre [shudder!!!]
Why, what's wrong with Kumho? They are a global top-10 tire manufacturer, and part of a giant Korean conglomerate that also includes Asiana Airways. They are a supplier for Mercedes-Benz, and run their own racing series in the UK using spec BMWs.

With the new Korean GP added to the schedule, I think they would make a worthy supplier. I have Kumho tires on my vehicle, and I have no complaints, much unlike the Bridgestone Potenza Run-Flats it came with, which disintegrated at 30,000 miles, and are now subject to a class-action lawsuit (so looks like I'll get my money back!) :D

[Jag_Warrior]

Why, what's wrong with Kumho? They are a global top-10 tire manufacturer, and part of a giant Korean conglomerate that also includes Asiana Airways. They are a supplier for Mercedes-Benz, and run their own racing series in the UK using spec BMWs.

With the new Korean GP added to the schedule, I think they would make a worthy supplier. I have Kumho tires on my vehicle, and I have no complaints, much unlike the Bridgestone Potenza Run-Flats it came with, which disintegrated at 30,000 miles, and are now subject to a class-action lawsuit (so looks like I'll get my money back!) :D

Kumho makes some fine tires - and they make racing tires as well. I just put a set on my road car too. I had Falkens before that (good tires). And the car came with the worst tires I've ever had on a vehicle: Bridgestone Potenzas.

But if it's true that Michelin is coming back, then that's great.

[AJP]

Michelin may only return if they can form a synergy with the other racing series they supplies tyres to.

Therefore, Michelin wish to intergrate an 18 inch rim...with lower profile tyres.

That to me, would look horrible on an F1 car, let alone on any open wheel race car.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=362484&FS=F1

[harvick#1]

I agree with you :D

The worst would be a sole supplier without a name related in any way to motor racing, such as "Khumo" tyre [shudder!!!]

Kumho does have a racing tire, they were on the Panoz in ALMS last year

at least Badyear is not in the running as they cant produce a racing tire if their lives depended on it.

it would be nice to see Michelin, but seeing 18 inch rims on a F1 would just look bad

[Somebody]

Wasn't there talk about switching to "modern" low-profile tyres a couple of years back? Why'd that fizzle out?

[Easy Drifter]

As I pointed out several weeks ago if Michelin, or any tire Co. are a sole supplier they can and will dictate the configuration of the tires. FOTA and or the FIA can bleat all they want but if there is only one Company willing to produce F1 tires they hold all the cards.
18 inch wheels would give the chassis and suspension designers something to think about!

[maximilian]

What would it look like with 18-inchers? Anybody wanna try a photoshop mock-up? :D

[ioan]

How it would look is not important!
What's important is that in F1 the tires offer most of the suspension flexibility to the car and with low profile tires the cars need to be redesigned to incorporate supplementary suspension elements to make up for the loss due to the tires.

[AJP]

Looks like a boy racer piece of cr#p!!

[jens]

At least the exciting part is that if the tyre configuration will be significantly changed for next year, we could again see some unpredictable developments in the pecking order like in 2009. Tyres are probably one of the most unknown factors for designers since they are produced by an outsourced company - it would be worse if it was a completely new company, who no-one has any data about!

[maximilian]

Looks like a boy racer piece of cr#p!!
Interesting! Thanks for that!! :)

Yeah, that would be a bit different, wouldn't it?

[ioan]

I am usually not interested so much by the looks but that certainly looks like crap on a F1 car.

[Saint Devote]

Why, what's wrong with Kumho? They are a global top-10 tire manufacturer, and part of a giant Korean conglomerate that also includes Asiana Airways. They are a supplier for Mercedes-Benz, and run their own racing series in the UK using spec BMWs.

With the new Korean GP added to the schedule, I think they would make a worthy supplier. I have Kumho tires on my vehicle, and I have no complaints, much unlike the Bridgestone Potenza Run-Flats it came with, which disintegrated at 30,000 miles, and are now subject to a class-action lawsuit (so looks like I'll get my money back!) :D

They do not have the racing heritage or brand name recognition that Michelin has.

Its like Spyker versus Ferrari - exactly which one has the "name"?

[maximilian]

They do not have the racing heritage or brand name recognition that Michelin has.

Its like Spyker versus Ferrari - exactly which one has the "name"?
I'm with you there. As it is, F1 doesn't do enough to preserve heritage, with classic tracks (and even nations) disappearing off the calendar. Certainly names like Goodyear, Michelin, Pirelli, etc. are the ones we're used to best.

Incidentally, however, Bridgestone had practically NO F1 racing heritage, either, with the exception of very minor one-offs in the 70's. So... everybody has to start sometime...

[wedge]

Looks like a boy racer piece of cr#p!!

chrome spinners should be mandated :D

Seriously, engineering wise it will be interesting but I in terms of pleasing the eye the aspect ratio/profile should be revised. Definitely try making them 15"

[Somebody]

The whole point of the 18" wheels for Michelin is that their sportscar program is based around that, and they can port those tyres straight to F1. Any other diameter, and they have to spend a lot more time, money and effort in design and manufacturing.

15" is right out.

[maximilian]

As I look at that mock up more and more, sure it's different and needs some getting used to, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. Visually it's really less of a change than those shark fins, or the new wider front wings and narrower higher rear wings.

If it means that there would be 2, 3, 4 different "traditional" tire makers entering F1 at a reasonable cost to all, it may be worth it? Are there others who are currently supplying the same kinds/size of racing tires?

[52Paddy]

I'm all for having multiple tyre manufacturers back in F1. I'd love to have tyre battles back.

Those 18" rims look awful on the current F1 cars but, if cars are to run with that profile, then other areas of the car will need to be rethought. And maybe the designers and team personnel can build a car to look right with those wheels.

How about Michelin supplying rear tyres at 18" and getting a separate supplier to make smaller front tyres at a smaller profile? :p :

;)

[V12]

Incidentally, however, Bridgestone had practically NO F1 racing heritage, either, with the exception of very minor one-offs in the 70's. So... everybody has to start sometime...

True, I'd barely heard of Bridgestone in 1996. But they then earned their "heritage" by beating off Goodyear (who in turn comfortably saw off Pirelli in the late 80s early 90s, and both Dunlop and Firestone in the late 60s/early 70s), and holding sway against Michelin for a few seasons.

If for instance Kumho were to come in together with Michelin, and beat them, I'd bet my house (if I had one!) that their profile would be boosted hugely more than if they "won" a tender to be F1's sole tyre supplier.

As far as low profile tyres are concerned, I don't care how they look, if lower profile tyres give better performance (i.e. mechanical grip), then go for it.

[wedge]

The whole point of the 18" wheels for Michelin is that their sportscar program is based around that, and they can port those tyres straight to F1. Any other diameter, and they have to spend a lot more time, money and effort in design and manufacturing.

15" is right out.

I'm sure the ACO mandates smaller wheels, about 15"

[Malbec]

They do not have the racing heritage or brand name recognition that Michelin has.

Its like Spyker versus Ferrari - exactly which one has the "name"?

Everyone has to start somewhere. Presumably you are amongst those who forty years ago greeted the arrival of this new Japanese upstart 'Bridgestone' with disdain. What are those guys doing now?

Kumho already do a lot of work for F3. If they want to build up their R/D and marketing presence by entering F1 then good for them and even better for us.

[Malbec]

Incidentally, however, Bridgestone had practically NO F1 racing heritage, either, with the exception of very minor one-offs in the 70's. So... everybody has to start sometime...

Damn, wish I'd read your post before posting my reply to SD.

Anyway, how far do you want to push this heritage thing? Should new teams be prevented from entering unless they have some link with an old (preferably familiar sounding) team? Should sponsors be vetted? Banks haven't traditionally sponsored F1 but have moved in since the cigarette companies moved out, should we chuck them out because names like Santander don't have sufficient 'heritage'? Exactly how far do we go?

I simply don't see the need for such misplaced snobbery.

[maximilian]

Damn, wish I'd read your post before posting my reply to SD.

Anyway, how far do you want to push this heritage thing? Should new teams be prevented from entering unless they have some link with an old (preferably familiar sounding) team? Should sponsors be vetted? Banks haven't traditionally sponsored F1 but have moved in since the cigarette companies moved out, should we chuck them out because names like Santander don't have sufficient 'heritage'? Exactly how far do we go?

I simply don't see the need for such misplaced snobbery.
:up: :up: Exactly. F1 already drips with snobbery anyways.

[Valve Bounce]

I'm with you there. As it is, F1 doesn't do enough to preserve heritage, with classic tracks (and even nations) disappearing off the calendar. Certainly names like Goodyear, Michelin, Pirelli, etc. are the ones we're used to best.

.

Yeah! I fully agree. How dare people like Bruce dare to start a team called McLaren, or Colin whatsisname start one called Lotus. I mean it's not like our World Champion who went on to start his own team Brabham. Let's burn these upstarts like the Frogs did to Joan d'Arc.

[Mark]

The FIA will mandate that half the race is done on Michelins and half on Bridgestones.

[V12]

The FIA will mandate that half the race is done on Michelins and half on Bridgestones.

Nothing would surprise me anymore.

[maximilian]

Reports now have it that IF the wheels are switched to 18", not only Michelin, but also Yokohama and Dunlop may be interested. I say if it will give us 3 solid tire makers in F1 (all of which have significant racing heritage), then by all means, let's switch the wheel size! If we can get used to the new wings configuration since 2009, then we can get used to this look, too! ;)

[ioan]

Reports now have it that IF the wheels are switched to 18", not only Michelin, but also Yokohama and Dunlop may be interested. I say if it will give us 3 solid tire makers in F1 (all of which have significant racing heritage), then by all means, let's switch the wheel size! If we can get used to the new wings configuration since 2009, then we can get used to this look, too! ;)

WTF, are you Max Mosley in disguise?
Did it cross your mind how much money this will cost the teams? Changing the whole suspension and chassis building philosophy will cost too much for half of the grid.

[Sleeper]

WTF, are you Max Mosley in disguise?
Did it cross your mind how much money this will cost the teams? Changing the whole suspension and chassis building philosophy will cost too much for half of the grid.
Ross Brawn has mentioned that this needs to be looked at so that it doesnt price the new teams right out of the sport as soon as they've got here. I think the suggestion he made was a rule that keeps the suspension geometries usable for 13" wheels for a couple years first, giving the teams time to adjust.

What gets me is that many of Birdgestones regional, sporting and R&D departments are eager to stay in the sport if Michelin are returning, even if it doesnt meet the new "green policy" of the top brass. If thats the case then bring on the 18" rims I say, especially since the likes of Yokohamma, Dunlop, Hancook, Pirelli and Khumo all build race tyres to that size and might be tempted in as well.

[ioan]

I think the suggestion he made was a rule that keeps the suspension geometries usable for 13" wheels for a couple years first, giving the teams time to adjust.

Pretty much impossible. Unless they use very very low profile tires which then means that they need to add some kind of suspensions or the drivers might get a broken back after 10 laps or so.

[maximilian]

What gets me is that many of Birdgestones regional, sporting and R&D departments are eager to stay in the sport if Michelin are returning, even if it doesnt meet the new "green policy" of the top brass. If thats the case then bring on the 18" rims I say, especially since the likes of Yokohamma, Dunlop, Hancook, Pirelli and Khumo all build race tyres to that size and might be tempted in as well.
How cool would that be, if all those names battled it out! Certainly, cost for the adjustment is a big factor not to be forgotten, though. One would think there would have to be a sensible solution to the cost problem...

Whatever the solution be, they better get something going... not that much time left until Bridgestone calls it quits, and lots of R&D to be done by whichever tire company(-ies) replace them first, and then by the teams themselves to adjust accordingly...

[Easy Drifter]

Shouldn't require major tub changes. The teams usually develop new tubs every year anyway, as they had to this year for the larger fuel tanks.
Suspension alterations would be the major change partially offset by the low profile tires. Different uprights for sure but the inboard suspension points would likely remain pretty much the same.
A major cost would be new wheels. Unless restricted by the rules you could have much larger diameter brakes so possibly added expense there, although if the contact patch remains pretty much the same the current brakes are adequate. Likely be easier to cool them, if they want to by using larger diameter discs.
Almost certainly more unsprung weight.

[ioan]

Shouldn't require major tub changes. The teams usually develop new tubs every year anyway, as they had to this year for the larger fuel tanks.
Suspension alterations would be the major change partially offset by the low profile tires. Different uprights for sure but the inboard suspension points would likely remain pretty much the same.
A major cost would be new wheels. Unless restricted by the rules you could have much larger diameter brakes so possibly added expense there, although if the contact patch remains pretty much the same the current brakes are adequate. Likely be easier to cool them, if they want to by using larger diameter discs.
Almost certainly more unsprung weight.

Who says that the new teams were going to develop a new chassis every season?
What about the fact that for a F1 car the tire is part of the suspension given that there are no springs involved?
How are they going to get the same spring function done by a tire that has a wall 3 times smaller than before?!

So, a new tub will have to be developed no matter what, a new suspension geometry too, and a new suspension philosophy is needed also.

And you come and say that the biggest costs will be the new wheels! :rolleyes:

And BTW the brakes size is restricted, and not only the diameter, also the thickness.

[Easy Drifter]

Sorry I am so stupid Ioan.
Just because I have some actual experience in running different size (diameter) wheels on a chassis and have done design work means I know nothing.
I mean I only had 30 years of working on everything from production sports cars, F Vee, Can Am, F4, F Atlantic, Indy Car to F1.
Admittedly aero was my main bag and how it related to suspension set up.
It is quite likely brake size design would be changed (allowed) with the different wheels.
Loss of tire 'springing' can easily be regained by different spring (torsion bar) rates.
Believe it or not we even actually carried different weight of springs and amazingly enough knew how to adjust shock settings.
As I already pointed out the unsprung weight will likely increase.
Sure it is going to make the designers work in a new area and some may get it wrong.
Of course the Audi and other sports racers have no suspension movement. Yeah right!

[maximilian]

Sorry I am so stupid Ioan.
Just because I have some actual experience in running different size (diameter) wheels on a chassis and have done design work means I know nothing.
I mean I only had 30 years of working on everything from production sports cars, F Vee, Can Am, F4, F Atlantic, Indy Car to F1.
Admittedly aero was my main bag and how it related to suspension set up.
It is quite likely brake size design would be changed (allowed) with the different wheels.
Loss of tire 'springing' can easily be regained by different spring (torsion bar) rates.
Believe it or not we even actually carried different weight of springs and amazingly enough knew how to adjust shock settings.
As I already pointed out the unsprung weight will likely increase.
Sure it is going to make the designers work in a new area and some may get it wrong.
Of course the Audi and other sports racers have no suspension movement. Yeah right!
Very interesting to hear from someone who has actual knowledge and experience, and not just opinions. :up:

[maximilian]

http://thegarageblog.com/garage/wp-content/uploads/DSCN3328-vi.jpg

I thought this picture and accompanying blog entry were worth sharing on here as well!

http://thegarageblog.com/garage/re-tired/#more-12341

[V12]

Car looks a bit dated - is that a 1999/2000 Williams or something?

Still, back on topic, I don't mind low profile tyres at all, they look faster and from an engineering point of view I would imagine there would be advantages. All in all though I don't really care so long as we get more than one supplier (or at least the possibility of it, even if only one supplier is willing for now) - that is an absolute MUST. Also these stupid rules about having to run both compounds etc. need to be done away with.

[maximilian]

I think it could be rather interesting if we had 2, 3, 4 tire makers with their respective compounds, and if the compound and mandatory stop rules are done away with... one could envision very different strategies, for example Michelin teams going with a softer compound and 2 stops, while Kumho-shod teams opt for a nonstop race strategy, and the Dunlop cars going with 1 stop, etc...?

[ioan]

Sorry I am so stupid Ioan.
Just because I have some actual experience in running different size (diameter) wheels on a chassis and have done design work means I know nothing.
I mean I only had 30 years of working on everything from production sports cars, F Vee, Can Am, F4, F Atlantic, Indy Car to F1.
Admittedly aero was my main bag and how it related to suspension set up.
It is quite likely brake size design would be changed (allowed) with the different wheels.
Loss of tire 'springing' can easily be regained by different spring (torsion bar) rates.
Believe it or not we even actually carried different weight of springs and amazingly enough knew how to adjust shock settings.
As I already pointed out the unsprung weight will likely increase.
Sure it is going to make the designers work in a new area and some may get it wrong.
Of course the Audi and other sports racers have no suspension movement. Yeah right!

The chances for me to become the pope are as high as you designing race cars.

I never said it's impossible to adapt, only that it will be way to expensive and the poorer teams will most probably have troubles because of this.
But if you believe that a tire with such low walls can offer the same level of suspension as one with 3 times that, than you should try to save humanity instead of shooting animals in the wild.

And no it is not likely that bigger brake diameter will be allowed, because the FIA didn't do it before simply because they don't want to shorten the breaking distance.

[Easy Drifter]

No, I have never designed a complete car.
I have designed wings and other aero tweaks. Fabricated same.
I designed skirt systems when they were legal including one on the first Ralt in NA to run one. Spent a good hour with Ron Tauranac discussing my system and other design features.
All told I designed skirt systems for 3 different makes of formula cars. Fabricated them for two of the cars.
Designed a engine bay for an engine swap. Car won a championship. Also was one of two people who designed the fuel injection system for that car. Fabricated both the bay and the injection system.
Worked in 2 race car shops where cars were built and knew the designers well.
The best man at my wedding was another race car designer and builder.
All 3 formula cars won championships.
Spent considerable time with Carroll Smith discussing race car design. He wrote the books generally considered the race car mechanics' bibles.
As I told you before, read Steve Matchett's books to understand the mechanics and basic concept design of formula cars.
I could not design a current F1 car but I do understand the engineering from a practical point of view.
As I pointed out I actually worked on the bloody things not just pontificated about something with no practical experience. :mad:

[Easy Drifter]

As a further comment the new teams will require new designs for next year anyway as the current ones are clearly not competitive.
If, and that is a big if, Kers comes back new designs will be needed to accomodate it.
The same applies if refueling returns.

[ioan]

As a further comment the new teams will require new designs for next year anyway as the current ones are clearly not competitive.
If, and that is a big if, Kers comes back new designs will be needed to accomodate it.
The same applies if refueling returns.

The new teams will only have KERS if they get it as a present from those who developed it, otherwise it would cost around 10% of their already insufficient budgets.

I fail to see why F1 needs to bow to Michelin, who have the strange record of not being able to produce a F1 tire for a race, just because this would mean they can use same tires as on the endurance prototypes, tires that can go more than the length of a F1 race! :\

If anything Michelin should be happy that the FIA's french connection is allowing them back after they have been kicked out.

[ioan]

No, I have never designed a complete car.
I have designed wings and other aero tweaks. Fabricated same.
I designed skirt systems when they were legal including one on the first Ralt in NA to run one. Spent a good hour with Ron Tauranac discussing my system and other design features.
All told I designed skirt systems for 3 different makes of formula cars. Fabricated them for two of the cars.
Designed a engine bay for an engine swap. Car won a championship. Also was one of two people who designed the fuel injection system for that car. Fabricated both the bay and the injection system.
Worked in 2 race car shops where cars were built and knew the designers well.
The best man at my wedding was another race car designer and builder.
All 3 formula cars won championships.
Spent considerable time with Carroll Smith discussing race car design. He wrote the books generally considered the race car mechanics' bibles.
As I told you before, read Steve Matchett's books to understand the mechanics and basic concept design of formula cars.
I could not design a current F1 car but I do understand the engineering from a practical point of view.
As I pointed out I actually worked on the bloody things not just pontificated about something with no practical experience. :mad:

OK, so what do you propose for making up for the, roughly, 50% overall shock absorption loss due to the new tires?

[Easy Drifter]

If Kers comes in it will be a stock unit and manditory. New tub required.
Please advise where the the information the lower profile tires with cause a 50% loss of shock absorbing comes from?
Is that from a tire engineer?
Adjustments to spring rates and shock absorber (Damper) rates can easily be adjusted and will be if required.
As Michelin seem to be the only Tire Co. interested, unless 18 inch wheels come in obviously the FIA should not allow them in. F1 can then run on Wal- Mart specials.
The only other tire companies to show the slightest bit of interest also want to use 18 inch wheels.
Mind you it is clear that the Audis, Peugeots, Acuras and so on ride like carts and the drivers are all beat up at the end of the 12 and 24 hour races.
If they can be designed to run on 18 inch wheels so can F1.
The only time Michelin had a tire problem was at Indy once.
The Taxi Cabs running on Goodyears also had a major problem with Indy.
This last weekend there was a major tire problem with Goodyears on the WOO and that was on dirt!
Any Company can screw up.
Every race car manufacturer has had a design that did not work as expected. I guess they should never be allowed to race again.

[ioan]

Please advise where the the information the lower profile tires with cause a 50% loss of shock absorbing comes from?

It comes from the fact that F1 cars do not have the same spring suspension setup like road and sport cars do, and 90% of the shocks is absorbed through the high tire walls. This is nothing new, it has been like this for ages.

If you lose more than half of the height of the tire wall you will also lose more than half of it's shock absorbing capacity, again no rocket science just basic physics.

Solving this will not be easy and it will require a thorough chassis and suspension re-design, a very costly exercise for those who only just made it to the grid this season.



The only time Michelin had a tire problem was at Indy once.

Still the only time that ever happened and it happened in F1 in front of hundreds of thousands of people.



Every race car manufacturer has had a design that did not work as expected. I guess they should never be allowed to race again.

And did they ever made it back to F1 after such a flop? Don't think so. Not to mention coming back on their own conditions! :\

[Easy Drifter]

It is absolutely clear that you Ioan have absolutely no understanding or comprhension with repect to actual race car properties or design. The same applies to your total lack of understanding of race tire construction.
The amount of 'shock' absorbtion by a tire depends not on the height of sidewall but the amount of flexibility built in to the sidewall compound and to some extent the tire pressures.
The tire Companies are not going to reveal their compounding to the likes of us!
In setting up race cars I worked closely with tire engineers from both Goodyear and Hoosier as to the properties of a specific compound but I did not know exactly how they did what.
The AMLS and ALS cars bear a far closer resemblance to F1 than to any road car. They are pure race cars.
Oh and both your beloved Ferrari and Lotus had unmitigated design distasters but came back. So have most companies.
Right now you are just trolling on a subject it is clear you do not have a shred of real practical knowledge about. Not for the first time either.
Bye!

[Easy Drifter]

I would like to clear up one misconcepton that Ioan seems to have.
He states at least twice that F1 cars have no springs.
That is patently untrue. They do not have leaf springs from the 50's nor do they have coil springs.
Like the original VW bug they use torsion bar springing albeit far far more sophisticated. The bars (tubes really) are quite small and are varied as to rate by alloy and/or thickness of the tube wall. Most operate on a push rod system although pull rods have been used. All suspension systems employ shock absorbers to lessen the initial impact and to avoid oscellation. Sway bars are also still employed but vertically as opposed to the old link system. The actual torsion bars are splined and in the rocker arms piviot point.
That is a very simplified basic description of a modern F1 suspension.
The trick is in the exact layout and rates.
All aspects of the spring/damping/sway bar setting can be altered as needed including different rated torsion bars. You just don't do it in a 4 second pit stop.

[SGWilko]

The only time Michelin had a tire problem was at Indy once.
The Taxi Cabs running on Goodyears also had a major problem with Indy.
This last weekend there was a major tire problem with Goodyears on the WOO and that was on dirt!
Any Company can screw up.
Every race car manufacturer has had a design that did not work as expected. I guess they should never be allowed to race again.

Anyone see the BTCC over the Easter Weekend? - lots of tyre failures for Dunlop in race 1.

[turismo6]

My only issue at this moment is the extra unsprung weight that will be gain.
The problem is really just from a crash point of view, with the probability of a wheel being detach from an open wheel higher than other motorsports, a flying wheel could now do more damage.
The second point would be that a tire with a larger side wall could probability detach from the rim in collision which is far better than the wheel itself coming off.

But having said that if the gain is minimal then I no problem, larger brakes and we may even loose tire warmers.

[maximilian]

Reportedly, the teams would back the switch to 18-inch! I suppose this could actually happen.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Reportedly, the teams would back the switch to 18-inch! I suppose this could actually happen.

If this was true, I'd hope the new teams were in favour of it as well as the big teams with the big budgets. its got to work for all.

[Easy Drifter]

We do not know what is going on behind the scenes but at the moment the only Company to openly show real interest is Michelin.
They are saying they are only interested if it is 18 inch diameter wheels.
A couple of other Companies are showing a little interest but again based on 18 inch wheels.
The result is basically that Michelin hold most if not all the cards and it does not really matter what the teams want.
Should Bridgestone reverse their position then everything changes but there is no sign of that.
Everybody will be producing either new or highly modified tubs for next year anyway and there are almost certain to be some rule changes.
Either bringing in KERS or going back to refueling will require new tubs.
None of the new teams have a really competitive car now so they will have to produce something new for next year or fall even further behind.
Making design changes to accomodate 18 inch wheels just adds one more item for the engineers to take into account suspension wise but it is not a big deal.
Reversing some of my previous thinking there might even be a reduction in unsprung weight as the total amount of rubber in the low profile tires will be less and rubber weighs more than the wheel material!
Depending on the actual final overall height on the new combination there may be some areo changes to the flow over a car.
Got to give the aero boys something to think about.

[ioan]

It is absolutely clear that you Ioan have absolutely no understanding or comprhension with repect to actual race car properties or design.

Good try.
You might be right or wrong, you've got 50% chances. However I sure know about 1.000.000 times more physics than you judging by the rest of your post, and guess what



The same applies to your total lack of understanding of race tire construction.

Read above.



The amount of 'shock' absorbtion by a tire depends not on the height of sidewall but the amount of flexibility built in to the sidewall compound and to some extent the tire pressures.

Maybe. But as far as I know the energy that the tire can absorb, is proportional with the travel of a point on it's inner diameter, which on current tires is almost triple of what it would be on a tire with same diameter on 18" wheels.
You are talking about variables that can be change I talk about what is inherent to the tires dimensions and is always there no matter what you do with the other ones.




The tire Companies are not going to reveal their compounding to the likes of us!

It has nothing to do with compounds, as I already explained above, it's about the limitations on the shock absorbing possibilities given by the dimension of the tire wall.

The laws of physics are rather difficult to argue against, what do you think?

[Easy Drifter]

I think you are wrong.
A soft sidewall will flex more and absorb more shock.
A radial tire, as race tires are, will flex more than a bias ply tire.
Take a look at a light truck tire. Practically no flex compared a cars tire of the same size.
It is still basically immaterial as the adjustments can easily be made in the springing/damper system designed into the car.
The springs you said didn't exist.

[ioan]

I think you are wrong.

I am certainly not and I will try to explain why.

Just think about the tire as if it were a spring.
Let's go ahead with the tire - spring analogy.
The high side wall tire is a long spring and a low sidewall tire is a short one.
For the same material, spring and spire diameter the longer spring will absorb more of the shocks, proportional to the proportion of the lengths.

[Easy Drifter]

Not absolutely true.
It does not matter anyway as the vast majority of the springing/damping is done by the cars' suspension you said did not exist. Any shock absorbsion by the tires is minor in the overall picture.
You may feel differently but please show me where a race engineer has made such a statement.
It appears there will be 18 inch wheels with low profile tires and the designers/ engineers will deal with it through spring rates and damper controls. The ALMS and AMS cars and drivers have no problem going fast and cornering fast on 18 inch wheels. The drivers seem to survive in far longer races than any GP.
If you do not think they go around corners fast you have never seen them in action.
Another thing, I have not seen any indication that Michelin plan on using the same compounds for F1 as they do for the LMS and ALMS series.
They just want to utilize the same wheel diameter size as they do for their sports car program. At the moment they are in the drivers seat.
I also note FOTA have no problem with the idea.

[markabilly]

The chances for me to become the pope are as high as you designing race cars.
.
Looks to me your chances are looking better and better...hope you are Catholic.........

[markabilly]

I think the question is a bit more complicated than merely the tires and their size, even with torsion bar suspensions, as in the past, I have heard of the tubs flexing because of the attempts to get the weight down to use ballast...so even some minute changes in the diameter of the sidewalls (and not the wheels) may well impact other matters if only slightly beyond other parts being easily adjusted to meet the change, but it seems even the most minute changes have their impact to the point where a car dominates totally and completely on one circuit, only to run midpack on another......so any change might present more problems

but i am just arm chairing with keyboard on one hand and beer in the other

[Easy Drifter]

I agree there are going to be quite a few challenges and likely some will get it wrong or at least partly wrong. It may just shake up the grid.
I do think that there will have to an easing on the testing as well. At least I hope so.
Did anyone see that episode of 'Mythbusters' with the dimpled car body?
Less drag and better gas mileage. Maybe Virgin should try that! :eek:

[AndyL]

A guy on another forum just came up with this artist's impression of how an F1 car might look with 18" chromed wheels, plus some nice blue under-lighting for good measure :D

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo74/Crispysee/F1_Max_Power.jpg

[Bagwan]

If the requirements change , it seems there are a few companies that might be interested .
It makes me wonder about why one manufacturer is mandated at all .

Could there not be a spec assigned , and multiple makers vying for teams to try them on ?

The biggest issue is testing , or lack of it , I suppose .

It seems like it's the only area where teams don't have any choice , other than which compound at what time , but even then , they have to use both .


If I were a manufacturer , the situation seems nice on paper , with advertising all over , and exclusive rights , but I think it would be starting to sink in that my tires are merely something with which you need to deal , rather than something with which you win .
Therein lies the best reason for Michelin to ask that the spec be changed to one that might encourage others to try it on .

Michelin needs to compete , not just supply .

[V12]

Exactly - Bridgestone don't get any kudos for winning currently, because it's basically the same achievement as a driver winning a race with only him in it, and the only attention they get is when there are problems with their tyres, which is only exaggerated by the stupid rules which sometimes leave drivers on a compound which doesn't work very well. If they can go back to basics rules-wise and let whoever wants to compete do so, then whoever wins can say they have the best tyre and all the publicity that goes with it, that's surely the whole reason why not just tyre suppliers but fuel, engine, complete manufacturers get involved in the sport in the first place.

Plus it's a nice NON-ARTIFICIAL way of shaking up the order from time to time.

[maximilian]

A guy on another forum just came up with this artist's impression of how an F1 car might look with 18" chromed wheels, plus some nice blue under-lighting for good measure :D

I think neon underlights would look awesome in the night races! I say go for it! :D

[markabilly]

A guy on another forum just came up with this artist's impression of how an F1 car might look with 18" chromed wheels, plus some nice blue under-lighting for good measure :D

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo74/Crispysee/F1_Max_Power.jpg
Nice,

now imagine how much better it would look without all the wing staff....

[UltimateDanGTR]

I'm sure jenson and lewis would love that car..... :D

[jens]

Considering that we had to get used to weird wings in '09, F1 fans should already be quite well-trained to get used to everything, including those 18-inch-wheels. :p : I'm certainly looking forward to such change, because it would throw another so far unknown factor into car development for 2011, which could create more surprises in the pecking order.

[maximilian]

Considering that we had to get used to weird wings in '09, F1 fans should already be quite well-trained to get used to everything, including those 18-inch-wheels. :p : I'm certainly looking forward to such change, because it would throw another so far unknown factor into car development for 2011, which could create more surprises in the pecking order.
I'm with you there! That's one interesting aspect of the lack of testing (even though more might be allowed considering the changes) - rules changes do seem to make for some surprises.

[ioan]

Not absolutely true.

I am looking forward to a scientific demonstration from you, anything less than that is not enough to oppose a well founded law of physics.



It does not matter anyway as the vast majority of the springing/damping is done by the cars' suspension you said did not exist. Any shock absorbsion by the tires is minor in the overall picture.

Utterly wrong. And you are yet to prove this claims.
FYI F1 suspension is extremely rigid when compared to road and even sport cars in order to give the more stability, and thus the shocks are being absorbed in an overwhelming proportion by the tires.


You may feel differently but please show me where a race engineer has made such a statement.
It appears there will be 18 inch wheels with low profile tires and the designers/ engineers will deal with it through spring rates and damper controls. The ALMS and AMS cars and drivers have no problem going fast and cornering fast on 18 inch wheels. The drivers seem to survive in far longer races than any GP.

Appears being the key word.

[ioan]

Looks to me your chances are looking better and better...hope you are Catholic.........

I am not a believer, but you are right looking at the news that might not be important.

[ioan]

Plus it's a nice NON-ARTIFICIAL way of shaking up the order from time to time.

Like having drivers win just because the most important part of a car not designed by the team.

Welcome back F1 Tire Championship, who care how good a driver is or how clever the teams' engineers were?!

[Easy Drifter]

ioan have you ever even seen a modern race car up close?
Have you ever talked to a race car engineer or designer?
Have you ever talked to a race tire engineer?
Can you prove in practical terms any of your claims? Not your theories.
The Alms cars are very close to F1 as far as design goes.
Have you ever even seen one?
Like a lot of ivory tower academics you look down on people with actual real life experience.
As far as I am concerned you are as clueless here as you were on the life of a F1 mechanic.
You are the one who said F1 cars do not have springs which shows your utter lack of knowledge.
End of discussion.

[ioan]

ioan have you ever even seen a modern race car up close?
Have you ever talked to a race car engineer or designer?
Have you ever talked to a race tire engineer?
Can you prove in practical terms any of your claims? Not your theories.
The Alms cars are very close to F1 as far as design goes.
Have you ever even seen one?
Like a lot of ivory tower academics you look down on people with actual real life experience.
As far as I am concerned you are as clueless here as you were on the life of a F1 mechanic.
You are the one who said F1 cars do not have springs which shows your utter lack of knowledge.
End of discussion.

I kept a low profile in our discussion and tried to have a civilized discussion without making allusions to my professional qualifications as you did every post at least thrice.

Just for your information, not only I saw F1 cars up close I have also assisted to aero tests in the Prost F1 wind tunnel at Magny Cours.

You obviously despise my knowledge in science without having the slightest idea about what I did or didn't do in life.
I had very close interaction with modern F1 and I am qualified to work in high tech environment, still I prefer to work in research to have interaction with different companies in different engineering fields.

Let's face it, we don't have a common point of interests or knowledge, so yes, for me too it is end of discussion.

[Mark]

Interesting! Could indeed be for another series. Or perhaps someone had brought along some 'demonstrators'.

I think F1 would look fine with these sort of wheels, if that's what it takes to get new suppliers involved.

[SGWilko]

Interesting! Could indeed be for another series. Or perhaps someone had brought along some 'demonstrators'.

I think F1 would look fine with these sort of wheels, if that's what it takes to get new suppliers involved.

Perhaps one of the TV crews were doing a feature, and the tyres & wheels were left out in the pit lane. Looks like a Bibendum sticker on them.....

[Sonic]

Pirelli want in;

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83101

So do we want a single supplier or a two way, three way or even a four way battle?

[AndyRAC]

Pirelli want in;

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83101

So do we want a single supplier or a two way, three way or even a four way battle?

As many as want to join - F1 is meant to be T'he Pinnacle' - not a 'spec' series. And why Bernie has to get involved in the process, I just cam't fathom that out. Another bizarre decision by 'Mad' Max.

[Sonic]

My gut feeling is that Charlie twins will get the nod for 2011 on 18" wheels. Pirelli and perhaps others may then join the fray in 2012/13.

[SGWilko]

Michelin want to showcase and develop further their low friction MPG improving tyre technology. This is good, because it will directly feed back to road car relavance.

They don't however, want in if there is a tyre war. Not so good.

Pirelli were pants in '89 through '91, do we think that in a competition scenario they would be any better?

Avon seem to have a good rep.

Thing is, do we want a cost escalating tyre war again?

[veeten]

Okay, here's a good thought game... :idea:

Match the possible deals of tyre company with the Formula 1 team(s).

Pirelli - Ferrari, Torro Rosso, Sauber

Michelin - Renault, Red Bull, McLaren-Mercedes

Avon - Williams, Lotus, Force India

[fandango]

Would these 18' tyres lengthen the braking distance? (My apologies if this has been covered already - too lazy to read the entire thread)

[ioan]

Would these 18' tyres lengthen the braking distance? (My apologies if this has been covered already - too lazy to read the entire thread)

No. Why should they?

[Easy Drifter]

The contact patch will not change much unless there is alterations to tire width.
It will be real interesting if more than one Co. comes in and some companies run 13 inch wheels and some 18.
I would expect restricions on wheel width to remain.
My understanding is, from their statements, Michelin want competition.
If the 18 inch wheels are not allowed I have my doubts about Michelin coming in and the same probably applies to Dunlop.
Bernie's involvement has nothing to do with Mad Max.

[ioan]

Bernie's involvement has nothing to do with Mad Max.

Exactly, it only has to do with the money.

[fandango]

No. Why should they?

Did I just ask a stupid question? I dunno, I just thought that less depth would mean - look let's just forget it, ok?

[ioan]

Did I just ask a stupid question? I dunno, I just thought that less depth would mean - look let's just forget it, ok?

Sorry, I should have formulated my answer in a friendlier way. My bad.

[Easy Drifter]

It was not a stupid question.
These days the brakes are so good they can overpower the tire contact patch, as we see when the drivers lock the wheels.
So basically unless you have a larger contact patch the stopping power will remain the same.
Tire compounds might change it to some extent. A very hard tire would not have the same grip as a soft one but again I do not think there would be a huge difference.
Getting the balance between front and rear brakes correct probably affects stopping power more. Drivers have some control over this and some are better at it than others.
As far as I know the drivers can only control the amount of brake bias front to rear. If a system is developed, or allowed, so a driver can adjust each wheel's individual braking power things could get very interesting.
That is why ABS was banned in F1.

[fandango]

Sorry, I should have formulated my answer in a friendlier way. My bad.

No apology necessary. I didn't take your answer as unfriendly at all. I was just trying to be funny.

[ioan]

If a system is developed, or allowed, so a driver can adjust each wheel's individual braking power things could get very interesting.

This is not allowed in F1.

[Easy Drifter]

I know. That is why I worded my sentence the way I did. :p :

[Robinho]

No apology necessary. I didn't take your answer as unfriendly at all. I was just trying to be funny.

This is not allowed in F1 (either) ;)

[SGWilko]

This is not allowed in F1 (either) ;)

I sometimes wonder if humour is allowed on here too......
NB, take out the u if you are in the States y'all.

[ioan]

I sometimes wonder if humour is allowed on here too......

You know it very well that it is not. ;)

[jens]

If Michelin comes back, it would be especially interesting to witness, what can Renault do and whether they can regain their former 'magic'. Could also motivate Kubica to stay with the team long-term. It's still a bit of a mystery, how have they dropped the ball so significantly after the withdrawal of Michelin after '06, despite not having lost many key people.

[SGWilko]

If Michelin comes back, it would be especially interesting to witness, what can Renault do and whether they can regain their former 'magic'. Could also motivate Kubica to stay with the team long-term. It's still a bit of a mystery, how have they dropped the ball so significantly after the withdrawal of Michelin after '06, despite not having lost many key people.

The Renault was specifically built around the Michelin tyres. Initially with a rearward weight distribution for those mega starts, then with the OCP suspension, and finally with the TMD.

All three played to the fact that the Michelin's sidewalls were much more flexible.

If Michelin come back - I doubt there will be a ferocious tyre war from a cost point of view, so I don't see a particular benefit for the Reggie.