Robert Kubica and Renault

[jens]

The achievement of finishing in second position in Australia deserves its own thread. The more incredible thing is that Renault is even ahead of RBR themselves in WCC at the moment!

Renault - despite all the management changes and invisible winter testing session, they have managed to start impressing - they did it already in Bahrain with their pace, but now they've got the result. Obviously they are not good enough to win races, but to achieve decent results on a consistent basis - why not? Especially the beginning of the race with full tanks showed, how good the fuel-efficient Renault engine is against others, when Kubica was flying. In the final phase of the race he needed to check mirrors more often, while Button was pulling away, which he didn't manage initially, but everything worked out fine.

I have for some time held an opinion that 2010 will be the year of Kubica's rejuvenation in a new environment, which completely suits him. 2010 is the year, when Rob proves that he is among the very top drivers on the grid!

We are yet to see a result from Petrov - his race pace has been promising, but alas never got far so far. But if he has a troublefree race, he is clearly a points-material. Something needs to be done with qualifying though, but he is not the only youngster in trouble with that. Looks like those tyres are quite tricky to get properly to work over a single lap for inexperienced drivers.

[F1boat]

I am happy for Renault too. Hopefully they will turn the Big Four into Big Five.

[christophulus]

They seemed very quick in the wet at the start, Petrov made up a ton of places off the start too. I seem to recall the commentators mentioning how much more traction the car had compared to McLaren, Ferrari etc. Once it dried up they had less of an advantage but had position. If it rains next time out then I wouldn't bet against Kubica being up there again.

I still see them fighting with Williams and Force India for 5th though, I don't think they have the finances to challenge the big four, and Petrov's inexperience won't help.

[Garry Walker]

so maybe the renaults that alonso drove were not that bad at all

[Big Ben]

so maybe the renaults that alonso drove were not that bad at all

oh no no no..... They were the best they had. Like the one Kubica has.

The fact that Kubica finished one race on the second place this year means that last year's car was good obviously. By the same logic MS having so good results in the car that won the wcc last year means he's the slowest thing on the grid right now. Wonderful logic :laugh:

[maximilian]

I still see them fighting with Williams and Force India for 5th though, I don't think they have the finances to challenge the big four, and Petrov's inexperience won't help.
I think so, too. It looks like they might have a very similar year to 2009, with one driver getting occasional top finishes and scoring points, and the other basically crapping out. If both Force India cars can get consistent finishes, I see FI taking 5th in the WCC over Renault. It's just really difficult to basically run a 1-driver team...

[I am evil Homer]

Wonder if that new engine helps? Or is that coming for Malaysia?

[airshifter]

I'd like to see them do well. As for Kubica himself, I'm shocked that he hasn't been given offers from other teams.... he would be a good replacement for Webber. :)

[F1boat]

I'd like to see them do well. As for Kubica himself, I'm shocked that he hasn't been given offers from other teams.... he would be a good replacement for Webber. :)

More than that. He might threaten even Vettel, who knows.

[ioan]

:laugh:
A good race and they are suddenly 'la creme de la creme'!
I wonder why people need to jump on a bandwagon before some kind of pattern materializes. :confused:

I'll remind you lot that Kubica was very fats last year in OZ and then nothing more happened.

[havk]

I have for some time held an opinion that 2010 will be the year of Kubica's rejuvenation in a new environment, which completely suits him. 2010 is the year, when Rob proves that he is among the very top drivers on the grid!


Judging by Kubica's comments the way Renault team function really suits him. When in BMW Sauber he wasn't always happy with team decisions, it was especially noticeably in 2nd half of 2008 year, when BMW Sauber concentrated on next year, instead of the current one. In 2008 Kubica showed he could even challenge with drivers in better teams. I agree that this year could be his rejuvenation, and almost sure that this season will be better than last.

[havk]

:laugh:
A good race and they are suddenly 'la creme de la creme'!
I wonder why people need to jump on a bandwagon before some kind of pattern materializes. :confused:

I'll remind you lot that Kubica was very fats last year in OZ and then nothing more happened.

He was 2nd in Brazilian GP and 4th in Belgian GP. In the last races BMW Sauber was much better and RK and NH get some good results. We will see. I bet Renault will be 5 th team in this season.

[truefan72]

I am happy for Renault too. Hopefully they will turn the Big Four into Big Five.

yep

[Saint Devote]

We know how good Kubica is.

Renault has a technical partnership for aerodynamics with Boeing. The improved Renault is surely part of that.

Kunica and the Renault - competitive result.

[Shifter]

:laugh:
A good race and they are suddenly 'la creme de la creme'!
I wonder why people need to jump on a bandwagon before some kind of pattern materializes. :confused:

I'll remind you lot that Kubica was very fats last year in OZ and then nothing more happened.

I've been on the bandwagon since his debut. 2007 (essentially a rookie year) 6th in the WDC, despite missing 1 race due to injury. 2008, 4th in the WDC. Last year, crap car and a lame-duck team. Now things are looking pretty good again. Here's hoping Renault can soon capture some of the Alonso era, or that RK gets a chance in one of the top cars soon.

[arknor]

nice to see renault and kubica doing very well buy i fear the weather flattered the car just as it did the jordans in 98 @ spa and the arrows team on more than a few occasions in the wet.

[Sleeper]

I'd like to see them do well. As for Kubica himself, I'm shocked that he hasn't been given offers from other teams.... he would be a good replacement for Webber. :)
There's a rumour that Ferrari want him to replace Massa for next year, but I wouldnt hold my breth on that just yet.

Personally, I thought 2008 was the year he came of age, setting up a title charge only for the team to cop out.

BTW, other than Jenson Button, who else has pulled a move on Kubica in the last year or so? From what I've seen him and Alonso are the best two defensive drivers on the grid, they can keep faster cars behind them without resorting to weaving allover the place.

[Valve Bounce]

Robert's car is more than a second off the pace of the front runners, and for him to do well in the Renault, he needs luck in the form of a damp track, and a get together just after the start and a modicum of luck.

If he had been driving for McLaren, Red Bull or Ferrari then his chances would improve greatly.

[bluegem280]

so maybe the renaults that alonso drove were not that bad at all
likely ;)
If they weren't competitive, they couldn't give two titles for him.

Perhaps this year's rules, the car set up, the track itself, some incidents at early race, and Kubica factor, have contributed to the whole defensive performance of Kube. Not overly defensive actually, drivers behind him were unlucky without sufficient grip to make the gap closer.

[AndyL]

BTW, other than Jenson Button, who else has pulled a move on Kubica in the last year or so? From what I've seen him and Alonso are the best two defensive drivers on the grid, they can keep faster cars behind them without resorting to weaving allover the place.

I agree, Kubica's defence against Hamilton was outstanding in Oz. Like you said there was never any weaving or anything, just putting his car on exactly the right piece of track every time and never making any mistakes. His composure with Hamilton climbing all over his gearbox was really impressive I thought.

[keysersoze]

Heidfeld must be pretty dang good.

[F1boat]

Heidfeld must be pretty dang good.

IMO he is very good in a 2nd rate car and more mediocre in a fast car, a bit like Fisichella.

[Garry Walker]

oh no no no..... They were the best they had. Like the one Kubica has.

The fact that Kubica finished one race on the second place this year means that last year's car was good obviously. By the same logic MS having so good results in the car that won the wcc last year means he's the slowest thing on the grid right now. Wonderful logic :laugh:

I see my slave has posted again :laugh:

[Big Ben]

I see my slave has posted again :laugh:

Good try. Some day you may actually say something funny. Till then keep on using emoticons so we can make a distinction between the dumb things you say and the stupid jokes you are making.

[ioan]

Heidfeld must be pretty dang good.

Strange isn't it?
Heidfeld beats Kubica 2 times out of 3 full seasons together and people hail Kubica to be a world beater and so on but never mention Heidfeld or just bash him.
One of the reasons why I gave up trying to understand the way some people around here think is that there is little to no logic involved in most cases, just bias.

[ioan]

IMO he is very good in a 2nd rate car and more mediocre in a fast car, a bit like Fisichella.

It is easier to push a bad car to the limit than to push a great car to the limit. In the first case you will find the limit easily, in the 2nd case you will only know it when you already overstepped it, unless you are one of the really great drivers out there.

[F1boat]

It is easier to push a bad car to the limit than to push a great car to the limit. In the first case you will find the limit easily, in the 2nd case you will only know it when you already overstepped it, unless you are one of the really great drivers out there.

Yes, but...
years after years Fisichella was considered to be very good. The best driver without a win, they said - sounds familiar, eh? He made some very decent races with Jordan and Benetton. But put into championship-winning Renault and he did nothing.
My opinion is that Heidfeld is a similar story. He is very consistent and reliable, a good solid driver, but never exciting, will collect the points but not do something outstanding. My opinion is that the team bosses know this and that's why all the teammates which Nick bested was preferred to him - and most of them delivered.

[havk]

Strange isn't it?
Heidfeld beats Kubica 2 times out of 3 full seasons together and people hail Kubica to be a world beater and so on but never mention Heidfeld or just bash him.
One of the reasons why I gave up trying to understand the way some people around here think is that there is little to no logic involved in most cases, just bias.

Heidfeld is a really good driver but IMO Kubica is the man who has better chance for the title in the future. I'd astonished if Heidfeld did not find a team in 2011. Ok, NH beats RK two time ouf of 3 full seasons by points but it doesn't show everything about drivers abilities. In 2009 Kubica collected just 2 points less than Heidfeld. Just look at first two races in 2009. In Australia Kubica had crash with Vettel (not Kubica's fault) when driving 2nd. His teammate finished 10 th. In Malaysia he was 6th in qualifying (Nick was 10th) and has engine failure on first lap. Nick finished 2nd (but score only 4 points - race was stopped before the full distance). And in qualifying RK beats NH 11:6. That shows that number of scored points doesn't say everything about competition. That doesn't change the fact Heidfeld is really strong driver although I rate him a little less than Kubica. Just my opinion.

[Retro Formula 1]

Nick is a smooth fast driver. Nobody doubts that but Robert has a little more ability. This is not bias but just an opinion based on observation.

We can look at statistics till the cows come home but I think that Robert will have a good chance of winning a championship in his career where I cant see Nick doing it.

Feel free to disagree as it is only opinion and doesn't really matter. We can all have different views.

[Garry Walker]

It is easier to push a bad car to the limit than to push a great car to the limit. In the first case you will find the limit easily, in the 2nd case you will only know it when you already overstepped it, unless you are one of the really great drivers out there.

I think it is the opposite.

[ioan]

Heidfeld is a really good driver but IMO Kubica is the man who has better chance for the title in the future. I'd astonished if Heidfeld did not find a team in 2011. Ok, NH beats RK two time ouf of 3 full seasons by points but it doesn't show everything about drivers abilities. In 2009 Kubica collected just 2 points less than Heidfeld. Just look at first two races in 2009. In Australia Kubica had crash with Vettel (not Kubica's fault) when driving 2nd. His teammate finished 10 th. In Malaysia he was 6th in qualifying (Nick was 10th) and has engine failure on first lap. Nick finished 2nd (but score only 4 points - race was stopped before the full distance). And in qualifying RK beats NH 11:6. That shows that number of scored points doesn't say everything about competition. That doesn't change the fact Heidfeld is really strong driver although I rate him a little less than Kubica. Just my opinion.

I would have no problems with saying that Heidfeld and Kubica are equally good even though very different drivers.
And sure Kubica has better chances given that he is younger.

[ioan]

My opinion is that Heidfeld is a similar story. He is very consistent and reliable, a good solid driver, but never exciting, will collect the points but not do something outstanding. My opinion is that the team bosses know this and that's why all the teammates which Nick bested was preferred to him - and most of them delivered.

Heidfeld performed in every car he drove, he's got good result with bad and good cars.
Let's not forget that BMW's only win went to Kubica because of team orders.

[ioan]

I think it is the opposite.

I knew someone would say that. :)
I believe that in a less then stellar car it is easier to feel the limit and thus push it to that limit. In a very good car the transition between within limit and over it is difficult to feel for the fast but less sensitive drivers.

[ioan]

Nick is a smooth fast driver. Nobody doubts that but Robert has a little more ability.

Ability for what exactly?

[Big Ben]

I have nothing against NH but I´m sure he´s a reserve driver because he´s outstanding.

[Josti]

I have nothing against NH but I´m sure he´s a reserve driver because he´s outstanding.

Money talks too I guess.

[ojciec dyrektor]

Heidfeld performed in every car he drove, he's got good result with bad and good cars.
Let's not forget that BMW's only win went to Kubica because of team orders.
Do You really believe German team, headed by Germans with German driver with lower car number decided to favour Polish driver? Driver who often criticized them? :)

[ioan]

Do You really believe German team, headed by Germans with German driver with lower car number decided to favour Polish driver? Driver who often criticized them? :)

I believe that you know nothing about Germans and you base the above affirmation on what you would do if you had a Polish team with a Polish driver and a German driver who often criticizes you.

Don't take it personally but some nations, especially Eastern ones and I come from there, need to grow up and realize that western corporations don't give a damn about nationality but rather about ROI. How else do you explain that a German team with a German driver used team orders to allow a Polish driver, who often criticizes them, to win their and his only F1 GP?!

I rest my case.

[ioan]

I have nothing against NH but I´m sure he´s a reserve driver because he´s outstanding.

He's manager didn't want him to drive for Renault or a lesser team so in the end he had to accept the Mercedes 3rd driver offer. I hope that he fired his so called manager.

[Sleeper]

I believe that you know nothing about Germans and you base the above affirmation on what you would do if you had a Polish team with a Polish driver and a German driver who often criticizes you.

Don't take it personally but some nations, especially Eastern ones and I come from there, need to grow up and realize that western corporations don't give a damn about nationality but rather about ROI. How else do you explain that a German team with a German driver used team orders to allow a Polish driver, who often criticizes them, to win their and his only F1 GP?!

I rest my case.
Its a lovely notion but a load of rubbish (Santander following Alonso, Mercedes actively looking for a German driver, Toyota hiring Da Matta and Panis because of an active marketing push in France and Brazil at the time).

Heidfeld was asked to move over as he was badly holding up Kubica, and the excessive tyre marbles just off line made overtaking a very dangerous prospect (Alonso crashed by being only a few inches wide). BMW would have had a 1- 3/4 that day if Heidfeld had been allowd to keep holding up Kubica.

[Rodster]

There's a rumour that Ferrari want him to replace Massa for next year, but I wouldnt hold my breth on that just yet.


That was the rumor last year and it seems both Brundle and Legard added a little more fuel to the rumor. On lap 44 they raved about Kubica's driving and eluded that he maybe inline for Massa's seat in 2011 when both Massa and Kubica's contracts expire at the end this year.

I think it's more possible given that both Alonso and Kubica are good friends. There was another rumor last year that Alonso was pulling for Robert to join him at Ferrari. Of course it's all rumors ad speculation but Kubica is very quick and would be a better choice over Massa.

Also Massa recently didn't quell the rumor by saying he was not going to say like Alonso that Ferrari is the last team he will drive for.

[tintop]

Its a lovely notion but a load of rubbish (Santander following Alonso, Mercedes actively looking for a German driver, Toyota hiring Da Matta and Panis because of an active marketing push in France and Brazil at the time).

Heidfeld was asked to move over as he was badly holding up Kubica, and the excessive tyre marbles just off line made overtaking a very dangerous prospect (Alonso crashed by being only a few inches wide). BMW would have had a 1- 3/4 that day if Heidfeld had been allowd to keep holding up Kubica.

Don't even bother, the troll patrol will roll through town again and mop this mess up (yet again).

[Retro Formula 1]

Ability for what exactly?

I don't know about his personal life but I was commenting on his driving ability as you very well know.

You may have an opinion that Nick is the better driver as I believe Kubica will go on to achieve more but it's just opinions. I don't have to be right and don't particularly care if I'm not. It's all in the spirit of conversation and discussing differing viewpoints isn't it?

[Valve Bounce]

I don't know about his personal life but I was commenting on his driving ability as you very well know.

You may have an opinion that Nick is the better driver as I believe Kubica will go on to achieve more but it's just opinions. I don't have to be right and don't particularly care if I'm not. It's all in the spirit of conversation and discussing differing viewpoints isn't it?

................and I think you are right!

[jens]

Actually it is harder to push a bad car to the limit. Just watch the onboard cameras of some "bad cars" - they are real handfuls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJJ4LuE0yoY
And now tell, which car is harder to drive? :p :

I don't know, why this thread has turned into a Kubica v Heidfeld discussion. Unfortunately the comparison for Nick has gone in a similar way like with his former team-mates Räikkönen and Massa - he has gone down and the younger team-mates have moved upwards. But all of it has been discussed earlier. Nick has never been considered as "a young gun". But there is still some hope for Heidfeld - if Schumacher retires after this season.

But I don't think Heidi is necessarily worse in good cars like suggested here, just recall 2007 - very impressive season in the 3rd best car. 2008 was just quite a peculiar year, when quite a few drivers were struggling more than usual - Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Sutil, Button.

When I follow Button's activities this season, I'm also keenly keeping in mind Heidfeld and what could he possibly achieve in the same situation, because they are so similar. And if Button can cut it in the top echelon, I'm certain Heidfeld can too. So maybe there will be an opening at MBGP for 2011. ;)

[ioan]

Actually it is harder to push a bad car to the limit. Just watch the onboard cameras of some "bad cars" - they are real handfuls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJJ4LuE0yoY
And now tell, which car is harder to drive? :p :

Obviously you never drove bad an good cars.

[ojciec dyrektor]

I believe that you know nothing about Germans and you base the above affirmation on what you would do if you had a Polish team with a Polish driver and a German driver who often criticizes you.

Don't take it personally but some nations, especially Eastern ones and I come from there, need to grow up and realize that western corporations don't give a damn about nationality but rather about ROI. How else do you explain that a German team with a German driver used team orders to allow a Polish driver, who often criticizes them, to win their and his only F1 GP?!

I rest my case.

Maybe You need to grow up but I don't care, its none of my business. I agree with Sleeper. There's too much politics in F1 and there are big sponsors with big money. All I'm trying to say is that I don't believe in team orders in this GP. Nick wasn't quick enough and thats all.

[ioan]

Maybe You need to grow up but I don't care, its none of my business.

Don't get so hot under the collar, you might get a heart attack.

[tintop]

Obviously you never drove bad an good cars.

I've driven both, albeit at much lower levels. Bad cars are much scarier to push. Anybody at any level of motorsport knows that.

[Dzeidzei]

The Kubica-Renault combo will last for one year only. In 2011 Kubica will be alongside Alonso at Santander. So goodbye, Felipe.

[jens]

The Kubica-Renault combo will last for one year only. In 2011 Kubica will be alongside Alonso at Santander. So goodbye, Felipe.

I know there have been hazy guesses about such possibility, but why do you think it is going to happen? And why should Ferrari get rid of Massa?

[Mia 01]

Robert is a good driver, but Nick is way better.

[tintop]

I know there have been hazy guesses about such possibility, but why do you think it is going to happen? And why should Ferrari get rid of Massa?

Although I'd like to see it happen for Robert's sake, I agree that Massa is doing well. Best intra-team competitions in years, almost better than the overall championship itself.

[keysersoze]

The Kubica-Renault combo will last for one year only. In 2011 Kubica will be alongside Alonso at Santander. So goodbye, Felipe.

The best Kubica will get is co-#1 status at Ferrari, and if Alonso wins the WDC I can see him asking for, and getting, clear #1 status. If Renault can continue to improve Robert may be happy to stay. I think Petrov is good but I don't seeing him being a threat and that may be just fine with the team and with RK, who didn't take too kindly to BMW focusing on his almost-as-quick teammate Nick Heidfeld.