Red Bull

[Sonic]

Throwing the championships away?

By a) being so unreliable, and (much as it pains me to say it) b) one of their drivers allowing the red mist to overcome him too often.

Still early days so I hope for the sake of the championship it can be turned around but it can't be Silverstone again if they have serious ambitions.

[gloomyDAY]

I have the ominous feeling that this will turn out to be like McLaren in 2005 or even worse 2004.

A fast car, coupled with an amazing driver, and all pissed down the drain over reliability issues. Adrian Newey is not completely at fault, as I believe that the brake issue is more of a supplier problem. Mark had no faults with his brakes all weekend long.

Then, we had the spark plug problem during Bahrain.

I hope Malaysia goes well for Red Bull. Third time's a charm!

[Rollo]

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/australian-grand-prix/mark-webber-takes-swipe-at-australian-nanny-state-20100328-r4qj.html

AS POLICE warned that Victoria was heading for its worst road toll in five years, motor racing driver Mark Webber attacked speeding laws.

The Queanbeyan native said that following his return from Europe he had been ''dodging the ridiculous speeding and parking [rules] and all the nanny-state country that we have down here in Australia''.

How ironic:
Webber attacked the speeding laws in Australia, less than 24 hours after Lewis Hamilton gets booked for speeding and dangerous driving.
Perhaps Webber himself has forgotten the state of most of the roads outside the cities (or even the potholes in them), where although the speed limit might be posted at 100, in some cases you're lucky to be even doing 70.

Also ironic:
Webber himself is involved in an accident in which if the RACV had to make a judgement as to who the "At Fault" driver was for an insurance claim, he'd be the one liable.

Thirdly Ironic:
Given Red Bull's reliability and Vettel's brake disc kerfuffle yesterday, would the Red Bull actually pass a Certificate of Roadworthiness test?

I do feel sorry for Vettel out of this. If it wasn't for his car underneath him, he'd probably be leading the Championship with 2 wins. Credit where credit is due, Vettel is better than the car under him, which should be better.

[N. Jones]

Red Bull's car is a typical Adrian Newey car:
Fast, but unreliable. :(

A shame, really. Kimi could have won in 2005 and Vettel could have been a contender this season.

I don't think a fragile car has ever won the WDC and it looks like that trend will continue.

[52Paddy]

A great shame for Vettel. The car isn't doing him justice.

[call_me_andrew]

I wouldn't call Red Bull unreliable right away. The Bahrain problem was due to a broken spark plug. That's Renault's problem.

[Somebody]

I wouldn't call Red Bull unreliable right away. The Bahrain problem was due to a broken spark plug. That's Renault's problem.

Newey's infamous for going very marginal on things like cooling, though, in search of aero efficiency.

[F1boat]

Newey's infamous for going very marginal on things like cooling, though, in search of aero efficiency.

I agree. Last year RBR got many problems which Renault didn't have in the factory team. So far, the same...

[Hawkmoon]

Can Red Bull win the development race this year? They won it over Brawn last year but that was no great feat as Brawn didn't nave the budget to compete. They won the development race but lost the championhip due to poor reliability and errors.

This year they have to out-develop Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes. That's a much tougher ask. If they continue to throw away points whilst enjoying a car advantage then they will have no chance when/if the others catch up.

[ShiftingGears]

I would still think that Red Bull will win in Malaysia, under normal conditions.

[AJP]

Hopefully Red Bull will have a reliable car in Malaysia...

They will win if they do.

Vettel must be so annoyed having the pace to win the first two races...

Webber, I think will find himself struggling to win this year, but you never know. He may well outpace the younger Vettel like last year on the odd occasion.

If Red Bull over come reliability issues, they will be serious contenders for both drivers and constructors championship..

ps, I will try and find the reports stating that Red Bull are not convinced that it was brake failure for Vettel...

[F1boat]

Can Red Bull win the development race this year? They won it over Brawn last year but that was no great feat as Brawn didn't nave the budget to compete. They won the development race but lost the championhip due to poor reliability and errors.

This year they have to out-develop Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes. That's a much tougher ask. If they continue to throw away points whilst enjoying a car advantage then they will have no chance when/if the others catch up.

No I don't think that they can out-develop the Scuderia. That's why I am happy with the races, if RBR are throwing away points when they have the fastest cars, this will make the life of Ferrari easier in the late part of the season. Actually I won't be surprised if in the end the battle is between Ferrari and McLaren Mercedes as the Brit team is well known for excellent development rate. About Mercedes GP, I am pessimistic, I think that they will stay where they are and may have trouble even with Renault.

[Storm]

I just had that feeling of Vettel being another Raikkonen in the making. All the talent in the world to win the title at a yong age but does not get a reliable+fast car throughout the season (or luck).

[SGWilko]

Third time's a charm!

Not unless they are being run by Vincent Laguardia Gambini, then it'll be six times a charm..... ;)

[Mia 01]

RBR has a very very fast car but fragile as always.

But I don´t think the car is the only at fault here.

[CNR]

Hopefully Red Bull will have a reliable car in Malaysia...

They will win if they do.

Vettel must be so annoyed having the pace to win the first two races...

Webber, I think will find himself struggling to win this year, but you never know. He may well outpace the younger Vettel like last year on the odd occasion.

If Red Bull over come reliability issues, they will be serious contenders for both drivers and constructors championship..

ps, I will try and find the reports stating that Red Bull are not convinced that it was brake failure for Vettel...

http://www.sportbox.tv/f1/news/story.php?id=307278

The German then saw his chances of winning from pole position in Sunday's Australian Grand Prix ended by a faulty wheel as he slid into a gravel trap during lap 26 at Albert Park.

[jens]

The more time goes by, the more we see, how little things change. This RB6 reminds me immediately those Newey McLarens from early 99-00's, when Häkkinen kept retiring from the race leads. This is frustrating - Red Bull is throwing the titles away in the beginning of the season for the second year in a row. Also Red Bull's poor strategy must be mentioned again - they were late with changing tyres, which almost cost Vettel the lead and even more than that for Webber.

[Sonic]

Car issues aside I think Red Bull needs to talk some serious sense into Webs. He is reminding me a little of Rubens from early last year; Massive car advantage, yet p1ssin' it all away by making stupid dumb a$$ moves. Perhaps because he seems to lack that last tenth Seb has, he's trying to make it up in other areas.

[christophulus]

Car issues aside I think Red Bull needs to talk some serious sense into Webs. He is reminding me a little of Rubens from early last year; Massive car advantage, yet p1ssin' it all away by making stupid dumb a$$ moves. Perhaps because he seems to lack that last tenth Seb has, he's trying to make it up in other areas.

He's probably under pressure. Red Bull have proved they can make a fast car (reliability aside), and are becoming a serious front running team, and so can pretty much pick and choose who they get to drive for them. Why would they keep Webber if Raikkonen, Kubica, Massa etc might be looking for a drive next year?

That's not meant as a dig at Webber by the way, I'm just saying that there'll be a lot of competition for his seat next year. Same as Button/Barrichello last year, the Brawn was fast, Merc bought it and now can hire whoever they want.

[turismo6]

It has come to light that the brake failure was due to the tyre not being fixed properly during a pit stop which then damaged the brake rotor.

[jens]

I'd like to add one more thing. IMO Red Bull is seriously missing Geoff Willis. With him RBR was quite reliable in 2008 and in the first half of '09, but after the departure of Willis in mid-09 everything has gone downhill quickly. :( Newey designs can't go unchecked! IMO the problem with Newey is that he is a bit of an old-school designer with an attitude that the best car "should fall into pieces after crossing the finish-line". May not work that well in current era with higher demands on reliability.

[Garry Walker]

It has come to light that the brake failure was due to the tyre not being fixed properly during a pit stop which then damaged the brake rotor.

link?

[Sonic]

I'd like to add one more thing. IMO Red Bull is seriously missing Geoff Willis. With him RBR was quite reliable in 2008 and in the first half of '09, but after the departure of Willis in mid-09 everything has gone downhill quickly. :( Newey designs can't go unchecked! IMO the problem with Newey is that he is a bit of an old-school designer with an attitude that the best car "should fall into pieces after crossing the finish-line". May not work that well in current era with higher demands on reliability.

I'd be inclined to agree. Newey is an excellent aerodynamisist but I've never really seen him in the role of technical director.

Back in the Williams days, with Patrick head overseeing the whole design, an excellent compromise was reached between cars that were bl00dy quick but that also lasted more than 40 laps!

[F1boat]

I'd be inclined to agree. Newey is an excellent aerodynamisist but I've never really seen him in the role of technical director.

Back in the Williams days, with Patrick head overseeing the whole design, an excellent compromise was reached between cars that were bl00dy quick but that also lasted more than 40 laps!

Although Hill had some weird retirements.

[Sonic]

Although Hill had some weird retirements.

So did everyone back then. 6 or 7 mechanical failures per season was regarded as a good reliabilty record. Now its terrible.

[gloomyDAY]

was not caused by brake failure. Brembo issued a statement saying that their brake system was not at fault for Vettel's retirement.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82546

I couldn't believe what caused the actual retirement. :confused:

Mama mia!

[Somebody]

So did everyone back then. 6 or 7 mechanical failures per season was regarded as a good reliabilty record. Now its terrible.

Well, a few things caused the change:
1) The 2003-2009 points system - with more places getting points but smaller gaps between the places - which made finishing more important than ever (for the top teams, the balance between fast-&-reliable and very-fast-but-fragile tipped as catching up a deficit caused by mechanical retirements became harder; while the lower placed cars had more chance of a point if they kept going to the end).
2) Parc ferme qualifying - not being able to rip the car to bits between qualifying and the race made everyone just that bit more conservative
3) Single lap qualifying - while it didn't last, as long as the qualifying order was determined by the reverse-finishing order of the previous race, everyone had a STRONG incentive to finish, even if out of the points (retired cars were being patched up and sent back out two/three laps down during this period!)
4) Multi-race engines & gearboxes.

[Retro Formula 1]

I have not heard of this failure for a long time. It just doesn't happen.

Possible build defect I suppose?

[wedge]

was not caused by brake failure. Brembo issued a statement saying that their brake system was not at fault for Vettel's retirement.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82546

I couldn't believe what caused the actual retirement. :confused:

Mama mia!

Vettel = car breaker?

Webbo was too aggressive over the kerbs a couple of years ago causing the gearbox/hydraulics failures whereas DC could finish the race.

[ShiftingGears]

Vettel = car breaker?


I don't buy the car breaker argument. Everyone said Kimi was but as soon as he went to Ferrari and didn't have a McLaren that fell to pieces all the time he had little to no mechanical failures.

[Sonic]

I don't buy the car breaker argument. Everyone said Kimi was but as soon as he went to Ferrari and didn't have a McLaren that fell to pieces all the time he had little to no mechanical failures.

:up:

[wedge]

I don't buy the car breaker argument. Everyone said Kimi was but as soon as he went to Ferrari and didn't have a McLaren that fell to pieces all the time he had little to no mechanical failures.

Because McLaren/Mercedes were more fragile.

Why was it Webbo had more hydraulics/gearbox failures than DC when RBR had their new seamless shift? Webbo was more aggressive over the kerbs, the shocks damaged the hydraulics systems. I am very sure I read somewhere that Christian Horner has admitted this.

[gloomyDAY]

Ron Dennis has been gabbing about RBR and stating that Vetetl's slowdown in Bahrain was due more to fuel consumption problems, but somehow Webber managed to finish the race.

What did Christian Horner have to say about Ron's comment?


I guess the problem with age is that your hearing tends to fail you a little bit and perhaps Ron didn’t hear the misfire that was there and probably didn’t see the fact that the other car also finished the race without any issues at all.

[ioan]

Vettel = car breaker?

Webbo was too aggressive over the kerbs a couple of years ago causing the gearbox/hydraulics failures whereas DC could finish the race.

Let's just say that a car has to be built strong enough to take the beating in F1, and that's not something Newey can do, never ever.
The day RBR fired/lost Willis they shot themselves in the foot.

[ioan]

Ron Dennis has been gabbing about RBR and stating that Vetetl's slowdown in Bahrain was due more to fuel consumption problems, but somehow Webber managed to finish the race.

What did Christian Horner have to say about Ron's comment?

I guess the problem with age is that your hearing tends to fail you a little bit and perhaps Ron didn’t hear the misfire that was there and probably didn’t see the fact that the other car also finished the race without any issues at all.

I thought Vettel said that.

[ioan]

Because McLaren/Mercedes were more fragile.

Why was it Webbo had more hydraulics/gearbox failures than DC when RBR had their new seamless shift? Webbo was more aggressive over the kerbs, the shocks damaged the hydraulics systems. I am very sure I read somewhere that Christian Horner has admitted this.

Both Kimi's McLaren's and Seb's RBR are fragile because of Newey's design philosophy.

[ioan]

I'd be inclined to agree. Newey is an excellent aerodynamisist but I've never really seen him in the role of technical director.

Back in the Williams days, with Patrick head overseeing the whole design, an excellent compromise was reached between cars that were bl00dy quick but that also lasted more than 40 laps!

Exactly.

[wedge]

Back in the Williams days, with Patrick head overseeing the whole design, an excellent compromise was reached between cars that were bl00dy quick but that also lasted more than 40 laps!

And what about the Newey designed McLarens that drove Hakkinen to 2 WDCs?

[Sonic]

And what about the Newey designed McLarens that drove Hakkinen to 2 WDCs?

I thought someone might bring that up so I've done my homework ;-)

Whilst we all remember the MP4/13 as blindingly fast it was quite fragile. It retired with mechanical issues at San Marino, Monaco, Canada x2, Hungary (not a retirement - but Mika did have to limp home with a failing gearbox) and Monza x2 (Mika again managed to limp home).

Compare that to Ferrari (still in the super teams infancy) - one mechanical retirement for MS and two for Swerve.

Thanks to the cars insane speed that championship gap was too big for Ferrari to overcome but the fact it went all the way to the last GP against an inferior Ferrari says it all for me.

[ArrowsFA1]

Let's just say that a car has to be built strong enough to take the beating in F1, and that's not something Newey can do, never ever.
Never? Ever?

I think 1992 shows it is something Newey is perfectly capable of doing. 12 wins and six 1-2's. While, yes, he was working with Patrick Head, the Williams FW14B was a Newey designed car.

Even in 2009 the Red Bull managed six wins and four 1-2's.

In the 1990's a car's design was far more the work of one man compared with today where many different people are involved in a car's design. For example, at Red Bull, Newey is the Chief Technical Officer but they also have Peter Prodromou (Head of Aerodynamics) and Rob Marshall who is the Chief Designer.

As always with F1 it's easy to focus on one individual, but this is a team sport where any number of different factors can cause unreliability.

[Valve Bounce]

Throwing the championships away?

b) one of their drivers allowing the red mist to overcome him too often.



The pressure heaped on Mark Webber before the AGP was incredible. Things like : his best chance to win his home GP, first Aussi to win the AGP since the current F1 championship was formed, and on, and on from radio, TV and of course all the papers.

His only recourse was not to listen to any of it, and simply focus on his sole objective: to gain maximum points possible, in any eventuating circumstance for his team.

He could have invoked the 3 monkey's rule and completely ignored the media and give as few interviews as possible. Basically, he psyched himself out. Sad, but there you have it.

[CNR]

19 races this year so in the next 17 races redbull may go as well as they did last year

this is a joke 2009
Red Bull can't win 2010 F1 title: Lauda
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-sport/red-bull-cant-win-2010-f1-title-lauda-20100401-rhle.html

after the first 2 races last year redbull had 1.5 points

Australian (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2009/805/)29 Mar 200900Malaysian (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2009/806/)05 Apr 20091.51.5

so this year they in a way they would be on 6 point in old points
so they are doing better than they did last year

[ozrevhead]

The pressure heaped on Mark Webber before the AGP was incredible. Things like : his best chance to win his home GP, first Aussi to win the AGP since the current F1 championship was formed, and on, and on from radio, TV and of course all the papers.

His only recourse was not to listen to any of it, and simply focus on his sole objective: to gain maximum points possible, in any eventuating circumstance for his team.

He could have invoked the 3 monkey's rule and completely ignored the media and give as few interviews as possible. Basically, he psyched himself out. Sad, but there you have it.
Id have to agree with that valve and that will happen regardless

I had a major issues with when they pitted both drivers - left it too late for both drivers and it was luck at the time meant that vettle wasnt as hurt by it as Mark was. Last move from mark was thanks to the car having no downforce by the time it got to the corner...was a racing accident no more

you guys should really lay off Mark and wait till half way through the year before writing him off

[wedge]

Monza x2 (Mika again managed to limp home).

Looks like you didn't do you homework properly!

Mika threw the 1999 Italian GP away from an unforced error and cried!

[Sonic]

Looks like you didn't do you homework properly!

Mika threw the 1999 Italian GP away from an unforced error and cried!

Oh yes, I remember the break down. But I was referring to 1998 - sorry that I wasn't clear :)

[ioan]

Never? Ever?

I think 1992 shows it is something Newey is perfectly capable of doing. 12 wins and six 1-2's. While, yes, he was working with Patrick Head, the Williams FW14B was a Newey designed car.

Never ever!
Newey wasn't the technical director, Patrick Head was. Nice try though. :D

[ioan]

Oh yes, I remember the break down. But I was referring to 1998 - sorry that I wasn't clear :)

Nice comeback! ;)

[52Paddy]

Just thought I'd post this in relation to McLaren. This was written in the official 1998-99 annual:

"...But above all, McLaren had worrying reliability problems with excessive oil pressure on the engine side and with the brakes, calipers giving trouble at Monza.

And from the 1999-00 annual:

...1998 saw a return to form [after years of unsuitable partners], with the team taking both titles thanks largely to the design skills of Adrian Newey. However, in 1999....the team gambled on a brand new car and it paid the price in terms of reliability.

No real reason, just found it interesting.

[wedge]

No real reason, just found it interesting.

How did you know I was turning 30 this year? :D

[52Paddy]

How did you know I was turning 30 this year? :D

I'm glad your happy but I wasn't siding with anyone. I mean, the paragraph basically states that , although Newey was very much part of giving McLaren its phenomenal speed and, thus, making them quick enough to win the titles, it really was hit hard by unreliability. That is not to say that that is Newey's doing. If he's an aero man, then it's not his full responsibility to make the car reliable, but aerodynamically efficient, which evidently, it was.

And the previous year (1998), the annual points out that it was the braking area and oil pressure that was it's downfall in reliability.

Now, open as I am, I'll admit that I'm not 100% sure of all the duties that must be undertaken by a technical director (which Newey was at McLaren). But, if his job was mostly aero based, then why take a stab at him? Was he responsible for making sure things were running smoothly and reliably in the engine and brakes department too? (not rhetorical)

[Mia 01]

The pressure heaped on Mark Webber before the AGP was incredible. Things like : his best chance to win his home GP, first Aussi to win the AGP since the current F1 championship was formed, and on, and on from radio, TV and of course all the papers.

His only recourse was not to listen to any of it, and simply focus on his sole objective: to gain maximum points possible, in any eventuating circumstance for his team.

He could have invoked the 3 monkey's rule and completely ignored the media and give as few interviews as possible. Basically, he psyched himself out. Sad, but there you have it.
And he have to prove his dobters right. I know the pressure on you is immense.

[Mia 01]

At the moment RBR hav the best car of the field, anyone who knows anything about F1 admits that.

Lets see if Seb make to the finish line this race, then he will win.


Mark??!!

[RS]

Lots of reliability problems again for Red Bull in practice today.

Wonder whether the engines problems they have too are related to installation rather than the engine itself?

[ioan]

Now, open as I am, I'll admit that I'm not 100% sure of all the duties that must be undertaken by a technical director (which Newey was at McLaren). But, if his job was mostly aero based, then why take a stab at him? Was he responsible for making sure things were running smoothly and reliably in the engine and brakes department too? (not rhetorical)

The technical director oversees the whole car design, all departments.

[Sonic]

The technical director oversees the whole car design, all departments.

And as such must accept that the buck stops with him. Regardless of Newey's Aero background he is in charge of the whole car. So if something goes wrong, he must shoulder the blame.

[52Paddy]

And as such must accept that the buck stops with him. Regardless of Newey's Aero background he is in charge of the whole car. So if something goes wrong, he must shoulder the blame.

Ok, fair point. Being an aero genius doesn't excuse the fact that his cars are unreliable but perhaps explains why. Maybe the team bosses should take the initiative and appoint him as an aero technician solely and leave somebody else to be technical director. Sorry, I'm just stating the obvious now aren't I? :)

[ioan]

Ok, fair point. Being an aero genius doesn't excuse the fact that his cars are unreliable but perhaps explains why. Maybe the team bosses should take the initiative and appoint him as an aero technician solely and leave somebody else to be technical director. Sorry, I'm just stating the obvious now aren't I? :)

They should have kept Willis and the problem would have been solved.

[Robinho]

They should have kept Willis and the problem would have been solved.

yeah, Hispania seem to be pretty reliable now. RBR must be so jealous

[Sonic]

They should have kept Willis and the problem would have been solved.

Does anyone remember the reason for the split? My sleep deprived brain isn't up to the task!