No overtaking in F1 anymore? Best race for a long time.

[Valve Bounce]

This must have been the best F1 race I have watched for a long, long time. I must say that after today, racing in Australia will never leave Albert Park. What an exciting race. We had everything, drama, overtaking moves galore and almost at will, dumb moves, prangs, ................what more could anyone ask?

I wonder if the cynics still want to insist that Bahrain is a better venue.

[Josti]

Australia for season opener, period!

Great race.

[EuroTroll]

A great race indeed! :up: But largely thanks to the bit of wet, I think. I really don't think it would be a bad idea to artificially wet the track before every race, and then let it dry.

[havk]

Races in Albert Park are usually very, very interesting. One of my favorite tracks.

[F1boat]

Just what I posted in another thread... best race since who knows when...

[Robinho]

it was good, but only the best race since Brazil last year to be fair

[christophulus]

I think most of us knew that Bahrain wasn't the place to start the season. Australia always gives us an interesting race, in fact I can't think of the last time there was a dull one.

Fingers crossed that it stays at Albert Park for the forseeable future..

[F1boat]

it was good, but only the best race since Brazil last year to be fair

Oh, I liked this far more than Brazil...

[Valve Bounce]

Oh, I liked this far more than Brazil...

Me too. Drivers were overtaking like it was fashionable.

[F1boat]

God, how much I love F1, is not real!!!

[Valve Bounce]

God, how much I love F1, is not real!!!

It would be wonderful if we can have another race as exciting next, and next, and next.

[DexDexter]

Great race but without the rain it would have been follow my leader.

[Hawkmoon]

I think it showed that all the doom and gloom after Bahrain was premature. Don't think the rain was the cause either as Button was onto slicks on lap 6 so 90% of the race was dry.

Button was asked why there was so much passing and one of the things he mentioned was the differing states of the tyres. Maybe they should be encouraging less pitstops and not mandating more? Remove the need to use both tyres and maybe we will get some exciting finishes?

[ShiftingGears]

Remove the need to use both tyres and maybe we will get some exciting finishes?

Yep. Forcing teams to use both types of tyres seems pretty stupid to me.

[mattlamb]

It is worrying that so many drivers could race so many laps on softs without having serious tyre issues.

I think, teams and drivers should be allowed total freedom in how many tyre stops they can made in a race - and that includes none. And the least said about the stupid rule where the top 10 qualifies have to start the race on the tyres they use in Q3, the better. Also need to increase the range of compound of tyres available.

On a slightly different note, it would bhe beneficial if the FIA looked at incidents of weaving from side to side on the straight to defend positions, rather than punish drivers all the time for making mistakes of judgement when trying to overtake.

[ioan]

It was down to weather and changing track conditions.
As soon as things evened out overtaking became something rare and most often the tries finished in the kitty litter and on tears.
It was obvious that a car on fresh tires and almost 2 seconds a lap faster could not overtake a car struggling with 40 laps old tires.

[ioan]

On a slightly different note, it would bhe beneficial if the FIA looked at incidents of weaving from side to side on the straight to defend positions, rather than punish drivers all the time for making mistakes of judgement when trying to overtake.

Everyone is allowed one move to defend their position and then a move to take the best line into the corner.

Given that one of the stewards was a great race driver I don't think we are in a position to contradict their decisions.

[ioan]

Great race but without the rain it would have been follow my leader.

:up: Exactly.

[mattlamb]

Massa was weaving from one side of the track to the other at least twice at one point to try and defend his position from Webber down the straight. There were reports of Alguesari weaving in front of Schumacher also (although this wasn't shown on TV so how true this is, who knows).
I think offering a greater choice of tyres and strategy would be beneficial. At least then if there isn't laways overtaking or even drivers on a strategy with more pitstops catching drivers on a more conservative strategy, there is the prospect of this happening. The question of : is the driver ahead going to be caught by the driver behind or can he increase his speed enough to prevent this happening? And, if he increases his speed will that put an even greater strain on his maybe extremely old set of tyres.

[F1boat]

If all races were great, for us they would be average... so I enjoy what I have. I am sure that there will be more exciting races this year :)

[Wasted Talent]

Great race but without the rain it would have been follow my leader.

100% agree

WT

[Valve Bounce]

Great race but without the rain it would have been follow my leader.That is pure conjecture.

[Valve Bounce]

:up: Exactly.

Exactly pure conjecture. :down:

[Chev_350]

Great race but without the rain it would have been follow my leader.

but it did rain so now we'll never know.

[N. Jones]

Yes, we did know. Watch the last few laps again. It was follow the leader/I'm unable to pass the guy in front of me.

Sorry, but rain made this "excitement" possible.

[F1boat]

You guys, seem to be always unhappy. Really depressing.

[woody2goody]

Great race but without the rain it would have been follow my leader.

Nonsense. A lot of the overtaking was done on a dry track. Look at last year's race, there was quite a bit of overtaking in that, and that was a dry race.

There's something about the character of Melbourne that seems to provide good racing, and allow overtaking, even though you wouldn't think it compared to Bahrain when you look at the layout of the track.

[V12]

The most "boring" thing about F1 is the predictability of the moans and groans that come whenever there is a "dull" race. Bahrain was rubbish, Melbourne was great - through the season there will be good races, bad races and average races, just like any other year in fact.

But if they are serious about having more exciting races, maybe they should ditch the Tilke-dromes? Nah that'll never happen £$£$£$£$

[woody2goody]

The most "boring" thing about F1 is the predictability of the moans and groans that come whenever there is a "dull" race. Bahrain was rubbish, Melbourne was great - through the season there will be good races, bad races and average races, just like any other year in fact.

But if they are serious about having more exciting races, maybe they should ditch the Tilke-dromes? Nah that'll never happen £$£$£$£$

What they should do is return Bahrain to the original layout, which actually provided good racing. Just my opinion.

There's nothing wrong with the racing at Sepang, Istanbul or Shanghai, so it's not Tilke that's necessarily the problem. It would be nice if new tracks were more individual in character.

[ioan]

but it did rain so now we'll never know.

Just wait for next season and we'll know.

[ioan]

That is pure conjecture.

No it isn't.

[ioan]

Nonsense. A lot of the overtaking was done on a dry track. L

The track was really dry only after some 40 laps and then we had almost no overtaking. But maybe you were watching another race, this would explain your views.

[ioan]

The most "boring" thing about F1 is the predictability of the moans and groans that come whenever there is a "dull" race. Bahrain was rubbish, Melbourne was great - through the season there will be good races, bad races and average races, just like any other year in fact.

But if they are serious about having more exciting races, maybe they should ditch the Tilke-dromes? Nah that'll never happen £$£$£$£$

When a car 2 seconds/lap faster can't pass unless the one in front makes a mistake then it isn't down to the track but to the car's technical specifications.
It's enough to see how easily Lewis caught up with Alonso and then as the gap was under 1 second he lost downforce on his front wing and within 5 laps his front tires were done because of it.

It's easy to blame it on the track but it's just a nonsense as we have seen dull and god races on every track in the calender, which pretty much tells a story to those who want to watch it carefully.

[F1boat]

Just wait for next season and we'll know.

In the past two seasons, the Oz GP was cool even without rain.

[Garry Walker]

Nonsense. A lot of the overtaking was done on a dry track. Look at last year's race, there was quite a bit of overtaking in that, and that was a dry race.

There's something about the character of Melbourne that seems to provide good racing, and allow overtaking, even though you wouldn't think it compared to Bahrain when you look at the layout of the track.

Ioan was right, there as barely any overtaking after the track had dried out and when that was the case, it was only due to the fact that some faster cars had been forced to the back for various reasons (like Schumacher getting rammed by idiot Alonso).

Without rain it would have been the same as Bahrain.

[markabilly]

Yes, we did know. Watch the last few laps again. It was follow the leader/I'm unable to pass the guy in front of me.

Sorry, but rain made this "excitement" possible.
yep.....we all need to hope for rain at every race.....that is the only way there will be excitement thi season....either that or those grid girls start getting more nakid on the grid...

[steveaki13]

But it did and can rain in GPs so it was just an exciting race.

Lets not get down on F1 all the time.
IMO this was a great race now into history and move on to Malaysia and hope for another cracker.

[ioan]

But it did and can rain in GPs so it was just an exciting race.

Lets not get down on F1 all the time.
IMO this was a great race now into history and move on to Malaysia and hope for another cracker.

Let's implement Bernie's idea about watering the tracks at random moments through race and qualifying and you will only get 'exciting' races at every track, but then again you could as well go and watch some wrestling as the level of reality would be about the same.

It's sad that people watch F1 for the 'excitement' instead of borrowing a great
DVD and making sure they get to watch a good thriller.

F1 is being sold as a show and this is driving it into the ground as far as technical excellence is concerned and this is a pity, however with every year that goes by, reading the F1 'fans' posts on dedicated F1 forums, it became obvious why and that it is irreversible. :(

[UltimateDanGTR]

F1 is being sold as a show and this is driving it into the ground as far as technical excellence is concerned and this is a pity, however with every year that goes by, reading the F1 'fans' posts on dedicated F1 forums, it became obvious why and that it is irreversible. :(

Here's how I see it: Formula One used to be about technical excellence and innovation where rules were more open, it wasn't sold as a show at the level of today and it was more about motorsport than entertainment. Thus, a dull race seemed more tollerable back then. however, at least overtaking seemed easier in those days due to simpler aerodynamics.

Nowadays, F1 tries to be a show, its sells itself as much as entertainment than as motorsport. so, this attempted show that has been created better have exciting races otherwise its failed because its not appearing as entertainment. but with the technical regs and the way cars are designed nowadays it would seem its harder to overtake and thus harder to entertain. so in effect, it's failing.

F1 tries to be a show but ends up not being as entertaining as when it was more about motorsport, it would seem (through the rose tinted spectacles, maybe its right maybe its not)

thus, F1 is lost, and needs to find itself. If F1 wants to be a show, then it should have tech regs and tracks that make it more entertaining, but crucially without taking itself too far away from it's past. (no wacky ideas from bernie then)

If F1 wants to be more about F1, with more free tech regs etc, it should stop pretending to be entertainment, but without 'dispromoting' itself into the backround.

at the moment its neither a great entertainment package or a full 'Innovation Formula' thing, and something needs to be done I feel to make it fit one of those categories in the right way.

I say all that, yet I'm still addicted to this darn sport! :D

[K-Pu]

Let's implement Bernie's idea about watering the tracks at random moments through race and qualifying and you will only get 'exciting' races at every track, but then again you could as well go and watch some wrestling as the level of reality would be about the same.

It's sad that people watch F1 for the 'excitement' instead of borrowing a great
DVD and making sure they get to watch a good thriller.

F1 is being sold as a show and this is driving it into the ground as far as technical excellence is concerned and this is a pity, however with every year that goes by, reading the F1 'fans' posts on dedicated F1 forums, it became obvious why and that it is irreversible. :(

So... is it bad to enjoy an exciting race? Does a true F1 fan have to find delight only in the timesheets, being able to enjoy a race watching only the lap times and ignoring track action? After all, F1 is about technical excellence and not track action, huh?

[woody2goody]

Ioan was right, there as barely any overtaking after the track had dried out and when that was the case, it was only due to the fact that some faster cars had been forced to the back for various reasons (like Schumacher getting rammed by idiot Alonso).

Without rain it would have been the same as Bahrain.

Ok fair enough, I looked at the timing data just now and realised that, so apologies there.

However I disagree with that last line of your post Garry. There would have been more passes in Australia I'm sure. Anyway, there would definitely have been some action between 2nd-6th places at the end without the collision.

[ioan]

So... is it bad to enjoy an exciting race?

Who said that?


Does a true F1 fan have to find delight only in the timesheets, being able to enjoy a race watching only the lap times and ignoring track action? After all, F1 is about technical excellence and not track action, huh?

Why come up with an extreme view?
I love to watch sector and lap times and I love to go over images with suspensions, wings, brakes, monocoques etc.
And I also watch the cars on the track.

But I do not need hundreds of overtaking moves per race or wrecked cars. If I wanted that I wouldn't sit here complaining about F1 but watch Nascar instead.

[markabilly]

Here's how I see it: Formula One used to be about technical excellence and innovation where rules were more open, it wasn't sold as a show at the level of today and it was more about motorsport than entertainment. Thus, a dull race seemed more tollerable back then. however, at least overtaking seemed easier in those days due to simpler aerodynamics.

Nowadays, F1 tries to be a show, its sells itself as much as entertainment than as motorsport. so, this attempted show that has been created better have exciting races otherwise its failed because its not appearing as entertainment. but with the technical regs and the way cars are designed nowadays it would seem its harder to overtake and thus harder to entertain. so in effect, it's failing.

F1 tries to be a show but ends up not being as entertaining as when it was more about motorsport, it would seem (through the rose tinted spectacles, maybe its right maybe its not)

thus, F1 is lost, and needs to find itself. If F1 wants to be a show, then it should have tech regs and tracks that make it more entertaining, but crucially without taking itself too far away from it's past. (no wacky ideas from bernie then)

If F1 wants to be more about F1, with more free tech regs etc, it should stop pretending to be entertainment, but without 'dispromoting' itself into the backround.

at the moment its neither a great entertainment package or a full 'Innovation Formula' thing, and something needs to be done I feel to make it fit one of those categories in the right way.

I say all that, yet I'm still addicted to this darn sport! :D

At one point in time, that tech improvement, might be true, but clearly if that door were open really open over the last thirty years, then we would still have: TC, 4 wheel drive, active suspensions (although the red bull may be a little more "active" than others), direct coupling between wings and wheels, mass dampers, flexible floors, automatic braking systems, snowmobile motors sucking air out beneath the skirts of the race cars...and so on, with many more that someone like Ioan could list.....or simply have v-12 motors or however many cyclinders one wants to have .........

..so chopping off a few winglets, eliminating the through the tail wind tunnels (or whatever they call them) and dumping diffusers would seem relatively small limitations by comparision

for me the real issue is that the role of driver skill has become more and more diminished.......oh and I forgot to mention the now banned ability to adjust the car and settings from the pitbox while the car is out on the track.....

bottom line is that now, it has become even more difficult to pass, regardless of all the swerving of a Mark Webber, when the cars are relatively equal.....and Lewis can whine and Butch out his team all he wants, but when he ran so close to FA, he ruined his tires, and needed to pit, like it or not.

Blaming his team because they did the smart thing in calling him in and failing to acknowledge that Button was smarter because of how he conserved his tires, changes nothing, but it does show the nature of that close racing is not technically speaking, "smart" in 2010.

[F1boat]

But I do not need hundreds of overtaking moves per race or wrecked cars. If I wanted that I wouldn't sit here complaining about F1 but watch Nascar instead.

YES. I enjoyed this race tremendously and had a lot of fun but even Baghrain was cool to me - although not as Oz.

[nigelred5]

This must have been the best F1 race I have watched for a long, long time. I must say that after today, racing in Australia will never leave Albert Park. What an exciting race. We had everything, drama, overtaking moves galore and almost at will, dumb moves, prangs, ................what more could anyone ask?

I wonder if the cynics still want to insist that Bahrain is a better venue.

You won't hear that from Me!

[UltimateDanGTR]

At one point in time, that tech improvement, might be true, but clearly if that door were open really open over the last thirty years, then we would still have: TC, 4 wheel drive, active suspensions (although the red bull may be a little more "active" than others), direct coupling between wings and wheels, mass dampers, flexible floors, automatic braking systems, snowmobile motors sucking air out beneath the skirts of the race cars...and so on, with many more that someone like Ioan could list.....or simply have v-12 motors or however many cyclinders one wants to have .........

..so chopping off a few winglets, eliminating the through the tail wind tunnels (or whatever they call them) and dumping diffusers would seem relatively small limitations by comparision

for me the real issue is that the role of driver skill has become more and more diminished.......oh and I forgot to mention the now banned ability to adjust the car and settings from the pitbox while the car is out on the track.....



you make a good point about driver skill there. Ofcourse, If the tech regs were more free, cars would naturally become easier and easier to drive, thus meaning driver skill just gets less and less relevant. and it would be more and more impossible to overtake or have an entertaining race, thus we would have totally dull races most of the time and F1 really couldnt try and call itself an entertainment sport any more.

[DexDexter]

Nonsense. A lot of the overtaking was done on a dry track. Look at last year's race, there was quite a bit of overtaking in that, and that was a dry race.

There's something about the character of Melbourne that seems to provide good racing, and allow overtaking, even though you wouldn't think it compared to Bahrain when you look at the layout of the track.

The racing line was dry but it was damp offline for a very long which made many moves possible (a driver running wide and being very slow into the next corner). Damp conditions always produce excellent races no matter what the regulations are, and currently they are bad.

[RMLCruzeing82]

super race

great racing

great over taking

great track

5/5

really enjoyed it

[Zico]

super race

great racing

great over taking

great track

5/5

really enjoyed it


Me too, if only every race could be guaranteed damp conditions or a rain shower at some point in the race to enable us all to witness what we saw today.. F1 would be just perfect.

Today was an exception, something still needs to be done.
Unfortunately the next dry race we see will have few overtaking moves, pretty much a procession like Bahrain.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I think banning the rule that makes drivers use two sets of tyres in a race would add excitement. From lap 5 onwards today there was a real call of whether you try to do the whole race on one set and hope to hold track position, or do you pit for new tyers and hope to catch and overtake at the end of the race.

[N. Jones]

yep.....we all need to hope for rain at every race.....that is the only way there will be excitement thi season....either that or those grid girls start getting more nakid on the grid...

Nah... F1 just needs to figure out how to increase overtaking.
Maybe it can't be done... I don't know.

[Big Ben]

I for one didn´t enjoy Bahrain. I was glad FA won but it was a challenge to stay awake. So I guess I´m not one of the purists. On the other hand this race kept me really excited. Would I like all races to be like this? No way. It was an entertaining race just because it happens only now and then. As some one said there will always be good, mediocre and bad races. It´s how it works and it´s just fine like that. I don´t want chaos at every race.

[Jag_Warrior]

Bahrain was a rolling joke. But this was one of the best races I've seen in a long time.

[Mark in Oshawa]

A great race. I don't often comment on f1, but this one was a beaut. Of course, it means Bernie will try to play a game and ratchet up more money out of the organziers at some point. IT was said that this track should never lose the Australian GP. Heck, they used to say that same sort of thing about Adelaide's wonderful street circuit too....

[wedge]

Ioan was right, there as barely any overtaking after the track had dried out and when that was the case, it was only due to the fact that some faster cars had been forced to the back for various reasons (like Schumacher getting rammed by idiot Alonso).

Without rain it would have been the same as Bahrain.

Catching is one thing, passing is another. As long drivers make an effort, that for me still gives me excitement.

[Valve Bounce]

Catching is one thing, passing is another. As long drivers make an effort, that for me still gives me excitement.

Yeah! especially when they belt the other guy up the backside when they can't get past. :p :

[truefan72]

Yes, we did know. Watch the last few laps again. It was follow the leader/I'm unable to pass the guy in front of me.

Sorry, but rain made this "excitement" possible.

exactly

[markabilly]

Bahrain was a rolling joke. But this was one of the best races I've seen in a long time.


and the winner passed how many cars (that were not being lapped) on the track on his way to victory?????



:confused:

as i said, if anything, this race demonstrated that close racing is not technically smart and may be likely to ruin tires, requiring more pitstops .......although it was exciting watching some of the bumper car action, almost like watching NASCAR....

[52Paddy]

As far as I'm concerned, those of us who watched in anticipation, on tenterhooks, for whatever our aspirations were during the race, should be happy as a race like that happens all to rarely. So what if dampness contributed to it? Nobody has said that this race has suddenly changed the status of Formula 1 as an 'entertainment sport' or a motorsport. It was just a bloody exciting race.

For me, it seemed like many drivers were (successfully or otherwise) making very serious attempts at trying to overtake other drivers. Hamilton did it numerous times throughout the race. Schumacher wouldn't back off Alguersuari and, later, De La Rosa. Webber wouldn't lay off Hamilton (the ending of that endeavour is relevant). Drivers were not happy to settle behind another driver. They genuinely wanted to pass and that's good - did the points system contribute to that? I don't know.

Say what you want but I enjoyed today's race and am happy that I made the effort to get up at 6am this morning to watch it. I've no further expectations after that - as has been said, we'll always get great, mediocre and bad races.

[call_me_andrew]

I know that if I were a purist, I would be bitching about that orgy of entertainment.

[F1boat]

and the winner passed how many cars (that were not being lapped) on the track on his way to victory?????


This is not NASCAR, you know... if you are fast and smart enough, you don't need to overtake half the grid.

[ArrowsFA1]

Me too, if only every race could be guaranteed damp conditions or a rain shower at some point in the race to enable us all to witness what we saw today.. F1 would be just perfect.
Wet/damp conditions certainly make the difference so the sport needs to look at changing the cars to replicate those conditions without resorting to sprinklers!!

Less reliance on aero, more power less grip, is what we need.

[Dave B]

Is it just me, but I don't want too much overtaking.

Controversial viewpoint? I want overtaking to be special. It should be bloody hard work, and I enjoy the anticipation of a good move as much as the pass itself. The sight of a driver jinking around behind his opponent, trying to unsettle him, to maybe force a mistake, to perhaps pass but immediately be re-passed on the exit: all these things I find thrilling.

It's a little but too far the other way at the moment thanks to the massive turbulence coming off the back of the current cars, but the last thing I want to see is a series where overtaking is so commonplace it becomes devalued.

[ArrowsFA1]

...the last thing I want to see is a series where overtaking is so commonplace it becomes devalued.
Agreed :up:

What I want to see is more opportunities for overtaking. At the moment the drivers know as soon as they get within a certain distance of the car in front that's where they'll stay. The evidence was there to see with the Kubica-Massa-Alonso-Hamilton-Webber train we saw at the Australian GP.

[Valve Bounce]

Wet/damp conditions certainly make the difference so the sport needs to look at changing the cars to replicate those conditions without resorting to sprinklers!!

Less reliance on aero, more power less grip, is what we need.

:up:

[I am evil Homer]

There was certainly some overtaking...Hamilton on Rosberg being the best example. But much of this was to do with the track and the conditions - challenging tracks create challenging GPs. Barcelona will be a snooze fest.

But the same problems persist - Lewis caught Alonso and although he did make some errors in that chase he struggled massively in the dirty air as the on board shots showed.

[ShiftingGears]

What it did show was that without the mandatory pitstop, and having some drivers last the race out on used tyres while others pit more frequently for new tyres, it did add another element to the grand prix.

[evooo]

i recall back in 05 or 06 that alonso mentioned he needed a 2 sec advantage to be able to pass schumacher at imola. now whitmarsh is saying you need a 3 sec advantage to do the same, and that is with a raft of regulation changes aimed at increasing overtaking.

something is seriously wrong with the approach and enforcement to car regulations that they have altered since 4 odd years ago.

[F1boat]

Is it just me, but I don't want too much overtaking.

Controversial viewpoint? I want overtaking to be special. It should be bloody hard work, and I enjoy the anticipation of a good move as much as the pass itself. The sight of a driver jinking around behind his opponent, trying to unsettle him, to maybe force a mistake, to perhaps pass but immediately be re-passed on the exit: all these things I find thrilling.


I agree. As I said, I don't want to see F1 like a race with bikes.

[jens]

Let's be serious for a moment now. The end of the race again once again showed that F1 still has the same serious problems with Hamilton being unable to do much against Alonso. The fact that soft tyres can basically last the whole race distance is also quite ridiculous. By combining those two factors, it's quite obvious that processions are going to be a norm in conditions, when the rain doesn't hit track during a Grand Prix.

[markabilly]

This is not NASCAR, you know... if you are fast and smart enough, you don't need to overtake half the grid.
okay, how about button passing one car on the track for position.....i cannot remember any....

time for some changes as i said above

[F1boat]

okay, how about button passing one car on the track for position.....i cannot remember any....

time for some changes as i said above

I disagree. I am fed up with constant changes. F1 is not a Moto GP, will never be a Moto GP and should not be a Moto GP. If you are fastest and you win, no need for overtake. Michael overtook cars yesterday, in the dry, and was not three seconds faster. It is possible, but very hard. Which is as it should be IMO.

[steveaki13]

Is it just me, but I don't want too much overtaking.

Controversial viewpoint? I want overtaking to be special. It should be bloody hard work, and I enjoy the anticipation of a good move as much as the pass itself. The sight of a driver jinking around behind his opponent, trying to unsettle him, to maybe force a mistake, to perhaps pass but immediately be re-passed on the exit: all these things I find thrilling.

It's a little but too far the other way at the moment thanks to the massive turbulence coming off the back of the current cars, but the last thing I want to see is a series where overtaking is so commonplace it becomes devalued.

Personally thats why I was never sure about KERS as it made it too easy for some drivers to pass and impossible for some other drivers to pass.

[steveaki13]

What it did show was that without the mandatory pitstop, and having some drivers last the race out on used tyres while others pit more frequently for new tyres, it did add another element to the grand prix.


I agree :up:

[stephenw_us]

Agreed :up:

What I want to see is more opportunities for overtaking. At the moment the drivers know as soon as they get within a certain distance of the car in front that's where they'll stay. The evidence was there to see with the Kubica-Massa-Alonso-Hamilton-Webber train we saw at the Australian GP.

That was some of the best racing I have ever seen.

It truly boggles the mind that I can see something on my screen that has me standing the entire time and then come and read on the internet a perspective that is the complete opposite...

They were passing and re-passing all race, and there was even a shunt at the end to prove it...

I'm stunned, truly stunned, that any fan of racing can find fault with yesterday's race - especially in America, since it was the only race actually run.

What more do you want?

Maybe you should try watching Golf?

[stephenw_us]

okay, how about button passing one car on the track for position.....i cannot remember any....

time for some changes as i said above

His name is Robert Kubica, FYI. :rolleyes:

Regardless, he gambled on tires with a risky move to slicks, obviously. It's disingenuous to know that fact and then complain that he didn't pass anyone (especially since that's not true).

The fact that he did that and held it together is the whole point, not that he didn't pass anyone once he was in the lead...

duh. :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

They were passing and re-passing all race, and there was even a shunt at the end to prove it...
Not the Kubica-Massa-Alonso-Hamilton-Webber train I was referring to, and the reason I used that example was because it highlights the effect of aero on the ability to overtake.

Yes, there was plenty of passing when conditions were wet/damp, but as the surface dried we were left with 'follow my leader' which has become too familiar.

I don't want to see artificial attempts to spice up the racing. Suggestions such as reverse grids should be permanently binned, but something can be done about the cars themselves. Wet/damp conditions mean drivers have too much power for the grip level available to them. We all seem to agree that the Australian GP was pretty exciting to watch so replicate that in dry conditions, and increase braking distances, and you will get more opportunities for overtaking.

[stephenw_us]

I completely and totally disagree.

In fact, you obviously watched a different race than I did.

[SGWilko]

I completely and totally disagree.

In fact, you obviously watched a different race than I did.

I think you are missing the point here.

Agreed, when the track was damp, overtaking was possible, but when dry, it was categorically not.

Look at Mark & Lewis - up to 1.5 - 2 seconds a lap quicker that the Renault and the two Ferrari's in clean air, as soon as they got close, barely a snifter.

Lewis put on a good try but Weber put a stop to that.

Aero is the key - get rid of the reliance on aero. Mechanical grip and manual gearshifts is what we need.

[V12]

I agree with some of the sentiments above, F1 is a race, not an overtaking competition, if you can get out front you don't and shouldn't need to overtake anyone. Sometimes it's necessary for a fast driver to come from near the back after problems either in qualifying or on the first lap or so, but that is generally the exception, rather than the norm.

Sunday's race was a great example of how interesting strategy and plenty of on track action can co-exist. Button won it on strategy and tyre management, but he had to be driving quick enough to make that strategy work, it's not his fault that Vettel's car broke and everyone else bar Kubica wasn't quick enough (Hamilton included) to rejoin ahead of him.

[markabilly]

At one point in time, that tech improvement, might be true, but clearly if that door were open really open over the last thirty years, then we would still have: TC, 4 wheel drive, active suspensions (although the red bull may be a little more "active" than others), direct coupling between wings and wheels, mass dampers, flexible floors, automatic braking systems, snowmobile motors sucking air out beneath the skirts of the race cars...and so on, with many more that someone like Ioan could list.....or simply have v-12 motors or however many cyclinders one wants to have .........

..so chopping off a few winglets, eliminating the through the tail wind tunnels (or whatever they call them) and dumping diffusers would seem relatively small limitations by comparision

for me the real issue is that the role of driver skill has become more and more diminished.......oh and I forgot to mention the now banned ability to adjust the car and settings from the pitbox while the car is out on the track.....

........

Blaming his team because they did the smart thing in calling him in and failing to acknowledge that Button was smarter because of how he conserved his tires, changes nothing, but it does show the nature of that close racing is not technically speaking, "smart" in 2010.


Opps I forgot to mention banning automatic gearboxes.....and the requirement of the car being required to run with a large piece of techincally advanced, super expensive$$$$$$, space age material beneath the car....something I think that is called a plank of plywood.....so all this talk of high tech and change is the essential ingredient of f1 and therefore leave the regs alone...well..sweet dreams are made of these....... :confused:

[Hawkmoon]

I think if Hamilton had cruised up to the Ferraris and sailed on by without breaking a sweat then something would have been wrong. I agree with Arrows in that we need to see passing opportunities created and not make it into a NASCAR like pass-fest.

There would have been little tension in the closing stages of tha race had we known that Hamilton would have made easy meat of the Ferraris. The fact that we knew he would catch them but that he would have to fight past is what made it exciting.

Hamilton may indeed have made the pass if he didn't get rogered by Webber so it's not like passing was impossible.

The rain was the catalyst for the conditions at the end of the race but it wasn't what caused the exciting finish. That was caused by the differeing conditions of the tyres on various cars. To me, that points to the tyre rules hindering the racing rather than enhancing it.

Rather than restricting the teams on tyre use I think they should allow them to use any of the 4 compounds they like at any point during the race. By adding variables to the race you are more likely to get exciting racing. That's why wet/dry races are the most exciting because the variable of the weather brings an element of the unknown into the races.

All this homologation - engines, chasis, wings, tyres etc - has removed many of the variables that once made the racing interesting. The mandatory use of two types of tyre has only made it worse. So rather than adding more pitstops and restricting the teams even more I say throw the tyre regs open and let the teams decide what they want to do. Might be we get some more old tyre vs new tyre battles in the races to come.

[ArrowsFA1]

I completely and totally disagree.
I'm not sure with what though :)

I assume you thought the GP was exciting to watch, but do you disagree that much of that excitement was due to the wet/damp conditions?

If you agree that it was due to the wet/damp conditions then do you disagree that replicating that in dry conditions, and increasing braking distances, will produce more opportunities for overtaking.

Or do you think F1 is just fine as it is?

[ArrowsFA1]

...we need to see passing opportunities created and not make it into a NASCAR like pass-fest...
That's it :up: I'm not arguing for cars being able to pass each other 10 times on every lap, but I do think opportunities for overtaking have been reduced as the reliance on aero has increased.

[V12]

I think if Hamilton had cruised up to the Ferraris and sailed on by without breaking a sweat then something would have been wrong. I agree with Arrows in that we need to see passing opportunities created and not make it into a NASCAR like pass-fest.

There would have been little tension in the closing stages of tha race had we known that Hamilton would have made easy meat of the Ferraris. The fact that we knew he would catch them but that he would have to fight past is what made it exciting.

Hamilton may indeed have made the pass if he didn't get rogered by Webber so it's not like passing was impossible.

The rain was the catalyst for the conditions at the end of the race but it wasn't what caused the exciting finish. That was caused by the differeing conditions of the tyres on various cars. To me, that points to the tyre rules hindering the racing rather than enhancing it.

Rather than restricting the teams on tyre use I think they should allow them to use any of the 4 compounds they like at any point during the race. By adding variables to the race you are more likely to get exciting racing. That's why wet/dry races are the most exciting because the variable of the weather brings an element of the unknown into the races.

All this homologation - engines, chasis, wings, tyres etc - has removed many of the variables that once made the racing interesting. The mandatory use of two types of tyre has only made it worse. So rather than adding more pitstops and restricting the teams even more I say throw the tyre regs open and let the teams decide what they want to do. Might be we get some more old tyre vs new tyre battles in the races to come.

Exactly...I can't understand why the powers that be push for more and more standardisation and homogenisation (in the technical regs, the sporting regs, tyre supply, the circuits) then wonder why the on-track action becomes standardised and homogenised.

I was thinking the same thing about the rain - it wasn't the damp track on its own that livened things up, it's that it threw off the shackles of the stupid two-compound rule and allowed teams to go their own way on strategy.

Two mandatory pitstops would ergo make things even worse, and whichever plank suggested that one seriously needs their head examining.

I agree with you - the tyre supplier (although there really needs to be more than one in the future), should bring their entire range to every circuit - perhaps doing an informal straw poll among the teams to give them a rough idea of how many of each type to bring - and on race day allow the teams to run whatever compound they want. You could get someone trying for a non-stop on hards, or a three stopper on super softs, etc, and unlike fuel strategies which are pretty much set, the beauty is a talented driver can eke their tyres out to a far greater degree than they can save fuel.

And yes, eventually teams would tend to zero on an optimal strategy for any given circuit and conditions, but right now they don't even have the opportunity to try something different, and that's just wrong.

[F1boat]

I think if Hamilton had cruised up to the Ferraris and sailed on by without breaking a sweat then something would have been wrong. I agree with Arrows in that we need to see passing opportunities created and not make it into a NASCAR like pass-fest.

There would have been little tension in the closing stages of tha race had we known that Hamilton would have made easy meat of the Ferraris. The fact that we knew he would catch them but that he would have to fight past is what made it exciting.

Hamilton may indeed have made the pass if he didn't get rogered by Webber so it's not like passing was impossible.


Yes. I think that the situation is not as bad as some people claim. :)

[UltimateDanGTR]

Yes. I think that the situation is not as bad as some people claim. :)

true, but i still think things could be better. I think there should be simply no proper diffuser like there is in F1, a la Champ Car:

http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/images/champcar/champcar/05/elan/2007%20Panoz%20Champ%20Car%20Rear.jpg

id reckon a fair bit of dirty air from the back would be reduced, and i wouldn't bet against the cars being a bit harder to handle....(which is good IMO) If F1 cars had a similar rear deisgn.

[F1boat]

Yes but F1 is a pinnacle of motorsport and may not be exciting as lower class formulas. This doesn't mean that it should downgrade itself.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Yes but F1 is a pinnacle of motorsport and may not be exciting as lower class formulas. This doesn't mean that it should downgrade itself.

this is absolutely 100% true, but i cant see why not having a proper diffuser on cars would 'degrade it'. we already have 2.4 litre V8 engines, which to me having them instead of larger units (e.g V10s or V12s) seems more 'degrading' than having no 'proper' diffusers would be.

besides, there are various other regulations that you could say a similar thing about, so to me this is a non-issue with the 'non-diffuser'

[stephenw_us]

I think you are missing the point here.

Agreed, when the track was damp, overtaking was possible, but when dry, it was categorically not.

Look at Mark & Lewis - up to 1.5 - 2 seconds a lap quicker that the Renault and the two Ferrari's in clean air, as soon as they got close, barely a snifter.

Lewis put on a good try but Weber put a stop to that.

Aero is the key - get rid of the reliance on aero. Mechanical grip and manual gearshifts is what we need.

No - you and clearly some others in this thread have never been in a racing car and simply don't understand what you are looking at. It was a combination of some drivers consolidating their race while others attacked, exactly what everyone is complaining is not happening.

I can't believe people are complaining about this race - its amazing to me.

This race and the reaction to this race convinces me that by and large the fans don't have a clue and we should not be going to the fans for advice on spicing up the racing, but instead leave it to the teams and the OWG whom understand there is a balance between keeping the DNA andthe ability to develop the cars in tact, while coming up with sensible improvements in a measured way over time. The banning of the double diffuser next year, and the banning of refueling this year are such improvements.

Going to a lever for a sequential gearbox would be a step backwards and would do nothing to increase overtaking.

Massa admitted he was struggling, and he wasn't going to risk a crash trying to overtake Kubica, if you paid attention he was thrilled with his podium - that is a driver decision, not an overtaking problem, and Kubica also deserves credit for how well he was driving.

Alonso is under instructions not to take out his team mate - again - that is a driver/team dynamic not an overtaking problem.

Hamilton did have opportunities to pass, and he did try many times, as did Weber. So frankly, I have no idea what you are on about - clearly these guys could pass if they wanted to.

[stephenw_us]

I'm not sure with what though :)

I assume you thought the GP was exciting to watch, but do you disagree that much of that excitement was due to the wet/damp conditions?

If you agree that it was due to the wet/damp conditions then do you disagree that replicating that in dry conditions, and increasing braking distances, will produce more opportunities for overtaking.

Or do you think F1 is just fine as it is?

To be clear I disagree that the end of the race when the track was drying was an example of cars not being able to pass as you claim.

I do think F1 is in good shape, yes - much of the Mosley stupidity has been removed, and the teams have far more say. Oz demonstrates that it is too soon to judge the changes for this year, and that tires may yet play an important role this year.

I think a lot of people fail to realize that these teams have investments in development, and rightfully so will find any suggestion to go to steel brakes, H pattern gearboxs, or a spec champcar like diffuser to be ridiculous, and rightfully so.

[tintop]

They should water all the circuits

[wedge]

this is absolutely 100% true, but i cant see why not having a proper diffuser on cars would 'degrade it'. we already have 2.4 litre V8 engines, which to me having them instead of larger units (e.g V10s or V12s) seems more 'degrading' than having no 'proper' diffusers would be.

By all means try to pump over 900bhp out of 2.4L V8s but let them do it over 20,000 rpm without restriction. It's insulting that it hampers overtaking and engines having to last x number of races.