Is this going to be Prost vs Senna all over again?

[Dave B]

Following on from a point in another thread, there's a stereotype which would suggest that Jenson Button doesn't always look like the most spectaular driver, but he's methodical and calculating and blessed with a remarkable sympathy for his car.

Lewis Hamilton is the one you'd pay to watch, he's clearly a frighteningly quick driver but there's always the fear that he'll make a rash move or let his heart rule his head.

Obviously it's far to early to draw concusions, but after Australia those stereotypes ring true. Nobody really noticed Jenson all weekend yet his inspired tactical call put him in position to win the race, his steady laps in the mid-race ensured his tyres survived for over 50 laps to complete the job.

Lewis had a run-in with the law, fluffed qually then lashed out at his team over the radio, yet few would rule out his winning races this season.

They're both World Champions, and now they're both at McLaren. Are we seeing parallels to an earlier era when that team were home to Alain and Ayrton?

As they say at Olympic throwing events: discus.

[Valve Bounce]

Following on from a point in another thread, there's a stereotype which would suggest that Jenson Button doesn't always look like the most spectaular driver, but he's methodical and calculating and blessed with a remarkable sympathy for his car.

Lewis Hamilton is the one you'd pay to watch, he's clearly a frighteningly quick driver but there's always the fear that he'll make a rash move or let his heart rule his head.

Obviously it's far to early to draw concusions, but after Australia those stereotypes ring true. Nobody really noticed Jenson all weekend yet his inspired tactical call put him in position to win the race, his steady laps in the mid-race ensured his tyres survived for over 50 laps.

They're both World Champions, and now they're both at McLaren. Are we seeing parallels to an earlier era when that team were home to Alain and Ayrton?

.

NO!

[EuroTroll]

Some parallels can certainly be drawn -- if this wasn't just a one-off, if Button can actually match and beat Hamilton quite regularly. We'll see!

[ShiftingGears]

I think more often than not races will be dictated by pace and not strategy. Considering that Hamilton has been faster pacewise for both races, I think Hamilton will get the better of Button during the season.

Which is why Button needed to deliver here.

[F1boat]

Maybe, but there won't be a duel. There are too many great drivers, too many great teams, Jenson and Lewis, Fred and Felipe, Michael, Seb, Rob, too many great teams, it will be a killer, at least I hope so. Unlike many, I liked the Bahrain GP, but this was the real deal, loved it. More of it, please...
Formula One FOREVER!

[Hawkmoon]

I'd say no simply because neither Button nor Hamilton are a match for Prost and Senna. I get your point though.

There's no way Hamilton would have done 52 laps on a set of tyres. He eats the things for breakfast which actually makes his speed at times all the more surprising because his driving leaves him with a much narrower window in terms of peak tyre performance.

Turkey is going to a real test for Hamilton as he couldn't make tyres last there with multiple tyre changes. How's he going to make a one-stopper work?

[steveaki13]

Too early to call on that but seems unlikely that it will follow a similar pattern as those two greats.

[ioan]

No, while Lewis alike to Senna, Button is not even close to what Prost was.
Let's not forget how Button was nowhere at the start and how he only won because Vettel's car broke down again.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Let's not forget how Button was nowhere at the start and how he only won because Vettel's car broke down again.

Constructors have to balance speed and reliability. Red Bull have built a quick car, marginal on reliability. McLaren have built a car that can get to the finish, therefore there's nothing undeserved about this win.

I think Dave's Prost & Senna analogy is very wise, though I'd agree that neither are at the levels those two reached in their pomp.

[F1boat]

ioan, it seems that when Jenson wins from pole, it's the car, when he wins not from pole, it's luck. This is, forgive me, not serious. It is clear that the guy is very talented, he is a WDC, maybe not as Prost, but then again, few drivers in history are on that level. I personally don't find Lewis to be as great as Senna either. But both him and Jenson are very good drivers and the battle between them looks promising.

[savage86]

I don’t agree with you Ioan, Button drove a very very impressive race.
Especially as he was running consistent 1:29's right at the end of the race.
Today he drove like a champion, and proved a point to a lot of people.

I would like to see what the Renaults and Ferrari's were running lap time wise towards the end, buttons smooth driving style just kept anyone from getting close today. I’m certainly not sure if Vettel's Red bull could have looked after the tyres the way Jenson did.

[V12]

I think two discussions in and after the race said a lot for me.

Hamilton moaning over the radio "why did we go with this strategy? [pitting a second time]" - he seemed genuinely shocked when the team told him that the Ferraris and Kubica weren't going to be pitting.

Button on the other hand, early in the race had taken the bull by the horns and made his own pitstop call and that paid dividends, while Hamilton seemed to be reliant on the team.

I think all things being equal Hamilton is faster (just) and if I was a betting man I'd say Hamilton will probably end the season with more points (again, not necessarily by much), but there will be a few days I think where Button has his measure when things require a bit more intelligence and smooth driving.

Either way I think it's good for Button he's got an early marker in, had he had his backside handed to him by Hamilton repeatedly as he settled into the team it would have been hard I think to establish himself on an equal footing, for the first time since the first few races of 2007 it seems like McLaren have two genuine equal number ones.

[woody2goody]

No, while Lewis alike to Senna, Button is not even close to what Prost was.
Let's not forget how Button was nowhere at the start and how he only won because Vettel's car broke down again.

He would have most likely beaten Vettel anyway, judging by Webber having to stop again, and that vettel wears his tyres typically more than Mark does.

Vettel was really unlucky, and I think the guy's great, but I don't think he would have won the race today.

[Saint Devote]

No, while Lewis alike to Senna, Button is not even close to what Prost was.
Let's not forget how Button was nowhere at the start and how he only won because Vettel's car broke down again.

:rotflmao:

[markabilly]

Lewis may be more worried about internal politics.
In the past, he had the Spaniard and then the Finn as team mates.
They were not English, but foreigners inside lewis's "native" team

And RD the godfather is no longer around to protect him....run off in part by Lewis himself...

and worse of all, he now has an English team mate who is as Brit as Lewis the Brit himself....and everyone says Button is the lesser driver, so Button has nothing to lose and everything to win by merely winning a few races.

I was always think it is better to be the hunter than the hunted....Lewis probably does not drive as fast when looking over his shoulder.

add in the outburst for all the world to hear about his team over the radio, and then after the race quotes of ""To sum up the race I think I probably had one of the drives of my life and unfortunately, due to the strategy, I was put further back....." :rolleyes:

and then asked whose decision the second stop had been, Hamilton replies, "I don't know, we'll find out....."

What an ego.....wonder if it were WM himself? Guess lewis will just have to whip his butt into shape.... :mad:

Hummm....do some remember Davey Ryan flying under the bus and how the team "mislead" poor Lewis into lying just last year.... :rolleyes:

Difference is that this year, there is an Englishman as a team mate, who has demonstrated an ability to win a WDC when given the right car, who has not dumped on his Mac team last year, and not this year,

Add in 2010 results to date: the current total is one win to none....Hummmm :D

[keysersoze]

OT, but does anyone know how many passes Button made after everyone went to slicks?

[Saint Devote]

it seems like McLaren have two genuine equal number ones.

Indeed they do.

Mclaren is now managed by Witmarsh and his temperament is very close to that of Jenson's.

It was easy for Hamilton when his mentor Dennis was present because Ron never had any qualms about openly favoring his pet driver and Kovaleinnen was never any threat.

For the first time Lewis has a teammate that is naturally calm and controlled and has complete confidence in his ability. If he has a weakness it is that he UNDERDOES it - as he did in Bahrain. But at the same time it provided a lot of information to Jense. Indeed he said the car was very comfortable today and they can make it better.

He lost time on the inters because the car was not handling well - but Jenson is also a very senstive driver.

Taking on slicks in what was extremely greasy conditions is only possible by a driver of the highest caliber.

This is not going to be a Senna-Prost situation because Jenson is not a vindictive individual and has high self-esteem and, Whitmarsh would not allow such a situation to arise.

Prost [off track] was just as bad as Senna [on track] - he would do small things during testing for example that would annoy Senna immensely - and he knew it would because Senna would react negatively. Dennis did nothing to prevent that and ultimately he turned the team against Prost openly.

In the end they became close friends and Prost was the last person the great Brazilian spoke to on that awful May day.

[havk]

I don’t agree with you Ioan, Button drove a very very impressive race.
Especially as he was running consistent 1:29's right at the end of the race.
Today he drove like a champion, and proved a point to a lot of people.


Agree. After GP of Bahrain there was a lot of critic on Button, but judging by one race is really too early. It will be an interesting competition between Hamilton and Button, although I think Hamilton will end season with more points.

[Saint Devote]

OT, but does anyone know how many passes Button made after everyone went to slicks?

I know he passed four people after his stop and I THINK went to second place - but if you mean literally overtaking on track, I cant remember that.

One would have to review [which I intend to do - I always watch a grand prix around three times] or read the lap chart - the race because there were also a fair amount of backmarkers he had to overtake on his way to victory.

[motetarip]

It certainly will be like Prost vs Senna because they didn't get on either. My guess is that Hamilton will try to make things as awkward as possible for Button after today (even more so!) He's too childish and immature to do anything else.

[F1boat]

Lewis may be more worried about internal politics.
In the past, he had the Spaniard and then the Finn as team mates.
They were not English, but foreigners inside lewis's "native" team

And RD the godfather is no longer around to protect him....run off in part by Lewis himself...

and worse of all, he now has an English team mate who is as Brit as Lewis the Brit himself....and everyone says Button is the lesser driver, so Button has nothing to lose and everything to win by merely winning a few races.

I was always think it is better to be the hunter than the hunted....Lewis probably does not drive as fast when looking over his shoulder.

add in the outburst for all the world to hear about his team over the radio, and then after the race quotes of ""To sum up the race I think I probably had one of the drives of my life and unfortunately, due to the strategy, I was put further back....." :rolleyes:

and then asked whose decision the second stop had been, Hamilton replies, "I don't know, we'll find out....."

What an ego.....wonder if it were WM himself? Guess lewis will just have to whip his butt into shape.... :mad:

Hummm....do some remember Davey Ryan flying under the bus and how the team "mislead" poor Lewis into lying just last year.... :rolleyes:

Difference is that this year, there is an Englishman as a team mate, who has demonstrated an ability to win a WDC when given the right car, who has not dumped on his Mac team last year, and not this year,

Add in 2010 results to date: the current total is one win to none....Hummmm :D

I agree, but still I hope that there won't be animosity in the team.

[motetarip]

I agree, but still I hope that there won't be animosity in the team.

It's going to happen and very soon. Hammy has no time or patience for any team-mate.

[Saint Devote]

ioan, it seems that when Jenson wins from pole, it's the car, when he wins not from pole, it's luck. This is, forgive me, not serious. It is clear that the guy is very talented, he is a WDC, maybe not as Prost, but then again, few drivers in history are on that level. I personally don't find Lewis to be as great as Senna either. But both him and Jenson are very good drivers and the battle between them looks promising.

Thats the general idea!!

The Jenson resenters are something that Jens's Barmy Army have had to endure for years. It comes with the territory. Like the Nigel Mansell haters.

Now they have all lapsed into a sort of cognitive dissonance led by the media. I am sure today the Jenson resenters must have been just besides themselves in confusion :D

I do wonder HOW Mark "up the arse of Lewis" Hughes, the Autosport grand prix editor Hamilton apologist is going to spin this grand prix on how wonderful his little pet was. I am sure he will find a way.

The 2009 Italian Grand Prix remains his "piece de resistance" and Autosport reached a new ridiculous low as he wrote how amazing Hamilton was that day.

[ioan]

ioan, it seems that when Jenson wins from pole, it's the car, when he wins not from pole, it's luck. This is, forgive me, not serious.

Forgive me for not wanting to listen to fanboyism and believing what I see rather than your opinion. Don't take it personally, it's just MY OPPINION. Take it or leave it, I don't care.

[ioan]

I don’t agree with you Ioan, Button drove a very very impressive race.

What exactly was impressive?
His speed? NO
His overtaking moves? NO.
His excellent pace in the damp? NO.

I think Kubica was far more impressive, as was Vettel before his brake let go.

But again, this is just about how I see it. And if you think he drove an impressive race, than so be it. :)

[Garry Walker]

What exactly was impressive?
His speed? NO
His overtaking moves? NO.
His excellent pace in the damp? NO.


Indeed.

He was slower than Hamilton
He didnt overtake anyone
When it was wet, he was destroyed by Hamilton and was so slow that he chose to pit in order to not get embarrassed anymore, but lucked out.

[F1boat]

But again, this is just about how I see it. And if you think he drove an impressive race, than so be it. :)

Haha, they say everything is in the eye of the beholder, maybe they are right :)

[ioan]

He would have most likely beaten Vettel anyway, judging by Webber having to stop again, and that vettel wears his tyres typically more than Mark does.

What else did you see in your crystal ball?

[ioan]

Haha, they say everything is in the eye of the beholder, maybe they are right :)

Not maybe, they are right in 99% of the cases.

[Dave B]

What else did you see in your crystal ball?
Do you not see the hypocracy? He said "most likely" and you're slating him, whereas you state quite catagorically that Vettel would have won and expect nobody to disagree with you :laugh:

Oh goodness you couldn't make it up.

[Garry Walker]

What else did you see in your crystal ball?

My crystal ball tells me there will be many tears and losses for button fans this season from here on, possibly even a suicide or two :D

[ioan]

Do you not see the hypocracy?

I do, yours.

[ioan]

My crystal ball tells me there will be many tears and losses for button fans this season from here on, possibly even a suicide or two :D

:up: :D

[F1boat]

My crystal ball tells me there will be many tears and losses for button fans this season from here on, possibly even a suicide or two :D

You remind me of Prof. Trelawney.

[Dave B]

I do, yours.

:confused:

Are we three years old and in a playground now?

[F1boat]

It's going to happen and very soon. Hammy has no time or patience for any team-mate.

I hope that he has matured, although I doesn't seem so. And hopefully Jenson will be able to take the heat. He took well the outbursts of Barrichello, but Lewis is worse IMO.

[ioan]

:confused:

Are we three years old and in a playground now?

Not me.

[woody2goody]

We have a similar contrast in styles as there was between the two, but to be honest, I don't think either man is up to that level yet.

that doesn't mean it won't be a fantastic, intruiging battle between two good guys.

[wedge]

Too early to say, Button needs to show he's top stuff more consistently.


He didnt overtake anyone
When it was wet, he was destroyed by Hamilton and was so slow that he chose to pit in order to not get embarrassed anymore, but lucked out.

He made the strategy work. He didn't need to overtake.

[wedge]

This didn't last very long:


http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/03/lewis-hamilton-admits-to-lots-and-lots-of-mistakes/

"I think at the time I misinterpreted and misunderstood the goals and the understanding of how the team worked

Second race of the year and the handbags are out already!

[truefan72]

Maybe, but there won't be a duel. There are too many great drivers, too many great teams, Jenson and Lewis, Fred and Felipe, Michael, Seb, Rob, too many great teams, it will be a killer, at least I hope so. Unlike many, I liked the Bahrain GP, but this was the real deal, loved it. More of it, please...
Formula One FOREVER!

:up:

except I was no fan of the first race :rolleyes:

[truefan72]

OT, but does anyone know how many passes Button made after everyone went to slicks?

zero

and he had kubica as his buffer

[AussieV8]

What exactly was impressive?
His speed? NO
His overtaking moves? NO.
His excellent pace in the damp? NO.


His speed?

He out qualified hamilton on Saturday. On Sunday he was trying to save the tires

His overtaking moves?

He didn't *need* to overtake anyone. Vettel dropped out, but I think the Red Bull would have had worse tires at the end of the race and then we might have seen something.

His excellent pace in the damp?

Again he was trying to make sure he didn't need to make another stop so wasn't pushing hard. On the other hand Hamilton was trying to catch up so he had to push.

I don't think it was a spectacular drive, but he did what he had to do to win the race so it was a good drive. I think it's too early to say in the season who has the upper hand out of the two of them.

[Mark]

Well Button did not out perform Vettel. However Formula 1 is a team sport and McLaren & Button definitely out performed Red Bull & Vettel.

[F1boat]

Well Button did not out perform Vettel. However Formula 1 is a team sport and McLaren & Button definitely out performed Red Bull & Vettel.

Yes :)

[Storm]

Button v Hamilton - there is no comparison with Prost v Senna IMO.

Hamilton may indeed be counted among one of the greats when he stops racing but I doubt Button can even be in the same sentence as Alain Prost.

[jens]

It's interesting to see claims that whenever Button wins, it's all about luck.

Anyway, the same Prost v Senna comparison is quite interesting, especially when we compare their driving styles. We have seen such comparisons in the past too (Schumacher v Montoya, Alonso v Hamilton), but those were more based on personal rivalry, not so much on driving performances.

I am actually glad to see Button winning. He really has got a lot of flak for being called "an undeserving average WDC" and he took a gamble to try to boost his reputation by joining a team, where he needs to race against the best. His Australian Grand Prix weekend was like a textbook performance - great qualifying (best of the non-ride height adjusters :p :) , brilliant strategy and well-controlled race. At the end of the race he managed to enlarge his advantage quite significantly after having conserved the tyres quite a fair bit. It was quite a prostesque performance. Hamilton looked faster though and without the pitstop might have even won, but then again in the battle of Senna v Prost we also had the battle of speed and strategy. What is missing for that comparison to be complete, is an obvious personal row, but who knows, maybe that will arise one day. :D

P.S. Congrats to Saint Devote. :)

[Saint Devote]

Anyone claiming that Hamilton is anthing remotely like Senna or that the Button-Hamilton teammates situation is similar clearly never witnessed the period. In addition they have never read books written by journalists of the period who knew the men personally and had "in" to the team.

It actually annoys me when people liken Hamilton to Senna. Hamilton is no Senna!

Senna-Prost was a feud - extremely acrimonious and fought to the point where each driver hated the other - even though they became close friends after Prost retired. It was something never seen before in f1.

And how good were these two? Hamilton makes errors that Senna NEVER did and his performance just YESTERDAY was one that neither Prost or Senna were capable of. They were THAT good.

Sure they are SIMILAR in style and on occassion both Jenson and Lewis have brilliant drives but, that is where it ends!

[Saint Devote]

It's interesting to see claims that whenever Button wins, it's all about luck.

Anyway, the same Prost v Senna comparison is quite interesting, especially when we compare their driving styles. We have seen such comparisons in the past too (Schumacher v Montoya, Alonso v Hamilton), but those were more based on personal rivalry, not so much on driving performances.

I am actually glad to see Button winning. He really has got a lot of flak for being called "an undeserving average WDC" and he took a gamble to try to boost his reputation by joining a team, where he needs to race against the best. His Australian Grand Prix weekend was like a textbook performance - great qualifying (best of the non-ride height adjusters :p :) , brilliant strategy and well-controlled race. At the end of the race he managed to enlarge his advantage quite significantly after having conserved the tyres quite a fair bit. It was quite a prostesque performance. Hamilton looked faster though and without the pitstop might have even won, but then again in the battle of Senna v Prost we also had the battle of speed and strategy. What is missing for that comparison to be complete, is an obvious personal row, but who knows, maybe that will arise one day. :D

P.S. Congrats to Saint Devote. :)

Thank you on behalf of "Jenson's Barmy Army"!!!

He did rock yesterday - didn't he :D

I am sure that Schumi smiled at Jenson's sublime performance - he roo drove that sort of race many a time to win in a car that was not the quickest.

[F1boat]

IMO Lewis may have the pace of Senna, but Senna was tons smarter than him. For example, I recently watched again the spectacular race in Donington. McLaren called him for tyre change and Senna said no. He made his own decisions. Like Button did yesterday.
But while Jenson and Lewis are both outstanding drivers, I agree that they are not in the level of Prost and Senna, two of the greatest drivers ever.

[Dave B]

Anyone claiming that Hamilton is anthing remotely like Senna or that the Button-Hamilton teammates situation is similar clearly never witnessed the period.
Sorry, but clearly I did. I know, because I was there :p

There seems to be confusion, so let me reiterate. I'm not suggesting that Lewis and Jenson are at the same level as Ayrton and Alain who have seven Championships between them and constantly feature in "top 5" driver lists.

What I'm commenting on is the parallels in the situation: two men - two champions, two completely different (but possibly complimentary) driving styles, two seemingly different mindsets, two of the most competitive and driven men of their generation - being thrown together as simultaniously rivals and team-mates at McLaren.

[jens]

Hamilton makes errors that Senna NEVER did and his performance just YESTERDAY was one that neither Prost or Senna were capable of.


Just want to clarify one thing. Never? Monaco '88 ring a bell? :D Not to mention all those crashes into backmarkers or in Prost's case spinning off in the wet on a warm-up lap. Those blokes were brilliant racing drivers, but not gods and they all had their own faults. The same can be said about current top drivers.

[EuroTroll]

Just want to clarify one thing. Never? Monaco '88 ring a bell? :D Not to mention all those crashes into backmarkers or in Prost's case spinning off in the wet on a warm-up lap. Those blokes were brilliant racing drivers, but not gods and they all had their own faults. The same can be said about current top drivers.

True. I think as time goes by, we tend to forget the mistakes and remember the great drives. Prost, like Button, didn't make many. Senna, like Hamilton, made many more. Brazil '94 for example, the first race of the season. He just lost it in the dry, chasing Schumacher.

I too think that neither Hamilton nor Button are at that level, but I think the comparison on the situations is quite valid and interesting. And I think Hamilton's drive and talent are not significantly less than Senna's, and (unlike Button) he can reach that level in the future. He's a much duller person of course, but that's another matter.

[Garry Walker]

Anyone claiming that Hamilton is anthing remotely like Senna or that the Button-Hamilton teammates situation is similar clearly never witnessed the period. In addition they have never read books written by journalists of the period who knew the men personally and had "in" to the team.

It actually annoys me when people liken Hamilton to Senna. Hamilton is no Senna!

Senna-Prost was a feud - extremely acrimonious and fought to the point where each driver hated the other - even though they became close friends after Prost retired. It was something never seen before in f1.

And how good were these two? Hamilton makes errors that Senna NEVER did and his performance just YESTERDAY was one that neither Prost or Senna were capable of. They were THAT good.

Sure they are SIMILAR in style and on occassion both Jenson and Lewis have brilliant drives but, that is where it ends!

So of course you will also admit that Button was nowhere near good enough to be compared with Prost too?

[wedge]

What I'm commenting on is the parallels in the situation: two men - two champions, two completely different (but possibly complimentary) driving styles, two seemingly different mindsets, two of the most competitive and driven men of their generation - being thrown together as simultaniously rivals and team-mates at McLaren.

Alonso and Hamilton was more fitting.

What does Button bring to the team and will he resort to underhand tactics?

[markabilly]

Yeah Button comes to be at Mac..what does hamilton think where in Button's second race, he wins over Hamilton??

..to paraphrase the hamilton radio outburst: "Whose call was it to bring {him} in? Fricking terrible idea!"

[F1boat]

Rofl!

[AndyL]

True. I think as time goes by, we tend to forget the mistakes and remember the great drives. Prost, like Button, didn't make many. Senna, like Hamilton, made many more. Brazil '94 for example, the first race of the season. He just lost it in the dry, chasing Schumacher.

I too think that neither Hamilton nor Button are at that level, but I think the comparison on the situations is quite valid and interesting.

Congratulations on perceiving the point of this thread that seems to be eluding so many people.
Did Dave posit that Hamilton is as great as Senna was, or ask whether Button is as good as Prost? No. The point was whether the comparison between Hamilton and Button parallels the comparison between Senna and Prost.
Some people on this forum seem utterly determined to twist any discussion into an excuse to express their hostility towards a particular driver.

[F1boat]

Some people on this forum seem utterly determined to twist any discussion into an excuse to express their hostility towards a particular driver.

So true... :(

[Retro Formula 1]

The comparisons are very evident and whilst it's a matter of opinion comparing drivers from different ages, I think McLaren have 2 top drivers. If McLaren close the gap to Red Bull and Ferrari, they will be unstoppable.

[jens]

Actually for the first time I'm starting to think that Hamilton might leave McLaren unless something is going to change soon.

This is based on the notion that Button is making the strategy decisions on his own, while Hamilton's strategy is decided by the team. But those may at times end in a failure (like China'07) if there isn't a proper feedback from the driver. It looks like Lewis is not happy any more that decisions are taken by the team - he is still viewed as a "kid" by McLaren, who have brought him up, but he wants to be a man already. :p : Are we going to see a departure from "parents"? He has already parted ways with his dad.

Especially in modern era of no refueling driver's influence on strategy is much more significant, because only they should know the condition of the tyres best. There is no more need for a "compulsory" pitstop on the next lap just because the car is running out of fuel.

What may be an alternative team for him? I'd guess Mercedes GP would be a likely destination.

[F1boat]

What may be an alternative team for him? I'd guess Mercedes GP would be a likely destination.

I agree.

[Anubis]

No, while Lewis alike to Senna, Button is not even close to what Prost was.
Let's not forget how Button was nowhere at the start and how he only won because Vettel's car broke down again.

I'd argue that's exactly why a comparison can be drawn. He kept out of trouble, made a great strategy call and then drove fast yet sympathetically so as to be in the best position to take the advantage when presented. Sounds very much like Prost to me. Don't think we're going to see anything as epic as the Prost vs Senna years, but I can see why the comparisons are being made.

[wedge]

Actually for the first time I'm starting to think that Hamilton might leave McLaren unless something is going to change soon.

This is based on the notion that Button is making the strategy decisions on his own, while Hamilton's strategy is decided by the team. But those may at times end in a failure (like China'07) if there isn't a proper feedback from the driver. It looks like Lewis is not happy any more that decisions are taken by the team - he is still viewed as a "kid" by McLaren, who have brought him up, but he wants to be a man already. :p : Are we going to see a departure from "parents"? He has already parted ways with his dad.

Especially in modern era of no refueling driver's influence on strategy is much more significant, because only they should know the condition of the tyres best. There is no more need for a "compulsory" pitstop on the next lap just because the car is running out of fuel.

What may be an alternative team for him? I'd guess Mercedes GP would be a likely destination.

Wrong way round.

There is no need for Hamilton to leave.

The problem is Hamilton, not the team. He should be able to think for himself, not leave it to the team all the time.

[Sleeper]

zero

and he had kubica as his buffer
He had to pass Kubica first though. I think that was the only move he made for position all race, but then when you're out front you have no one to pass anyway.

[Sleeper]

What exactly was impressive?
His speed? NO
His overtaking moves? NO.
His excellent pace in the damp? NO.

I think Kubica was far more impressive, as was Vettel before his brake let go.

But again, this is just about how I see it. And if you think he drove an impressive race, than so be it. :)
His speed? No one else was doing low 1:29's on 50 lap old tyres, and that was within 1 second of the times Hamilton and Webber were doing before they caught Alonso on tyres that hadnt even done 20 laps.

Overtaking, he passed Kubica for 3rd after the Poles stop, after that there was only Vettel ahead, and he droped out before a fight could really develop for the lead.

As for his pace in the damp, on inters it wasnt great, but throughout his career he has always been spectacular in damp conditions on dry tyres, and so he was again in Melbourne.

Vettel and Kubica were very impressive in the race, but surely I'm not the only one that noticed that after Hamilton cught Kubica, Button extended his lead on the Renault from the 4 seconds it had been for 20 laps to 20s in about 10 laps?

[truefan72]

He had to pass Kubica first though. I think that was the only move he made for position all race, but then when you're out front you have no one to pass anyway.

fair point about being out front. But I don't recall him overtaking kubica on the track

[gshevlin]

IMHO the analogy to Prost vs. Senna is incorrect. A more appropriate comparison is Niki Lauda vs. Alain Prost in 1984. At the time Prost had been in Formula 1 for 4 seasons, and was reckoned to be one of the very quickest drivers with a properly sorted car. Lauda had been in Formula 1 on and off for just about 10 years and had seen everything in F1 from the highs to the life-threatening lows.
That year Prost was blindingly quick, often way faster than Lauda (and Lauda himself was no slouch). However...Lauda won the title by relentlessly accumulating points all year. When he failed to win, he was usually on the podium. Prost was way faster a lot of the time, but when he failed to win he more frequently failed to finish. Lauda had the greater experience and the smarts and mechanical sympathy, and used all three to get his car to the finish and score points more often than Prost.

[F1boat]

IMHO the analogy to Prost vs. Senna is incorrect. A more appropriate comparison is Niki Lauda vs. Alain Prost in 1984. At the time Prost had been in Formula 1 for 4 seasons, and was reckoned to be one of the very quickest drivers with a properly sorted car. Lauda had been in Formula 1 on and off for just about 10 years and had seen everything in F1 from the highs to the life-threatening lows.
That year Prost was blindingly quick, often way faster than Lauda (and Lauda himself was no slouch). However...Lauda won the title by relentlessly accumulating points all year. When he failed to win, he was usually on the podium. Prost was way faster a lot of the time, but when he failed to win he more frequently failed to finish. Lauda had the greater experience and the smarts and mechanical sympathy, and used all three to get his car to the finish and score points more often than Prost.

Very, very interesting post and comparison.

[wmcot]

Too early to compare with the Prost/Senna rivalry. If Hamilton punts Button off the track at one of these races, then we're talking! ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

The problem is Hamilton, not the team. He should be able to think for himself, not leave it to the team all the time.
I think there's something in that in the sense that Hamilton is still learning and developing as a driver. Given his long term relationship with McLaren he may have had the view that he 'owes' them something - which he does - but has he matures he will see himself as a driver in his own right, rather than McLaren's driver. Part of that, I think, leads Hamiton to rely on the team more than Button who, even as the newcomer to the team, has experience on his side.

James Allen made a good point that Hamilton won the title very early in his career, but that doesn't mean he's a complete driver.

[F1boat]

So am I correct in thinking that yourself and Jens are expecting Hamilton to take Schumacher's place at Mercedes in the very near future?

Merc aren't going to replace Rosberg as he has outscored his teammate on every occasion so far, so it looks like the 7 times WDC then? IMO when you look at it like that, it puts this particular assumption into perspective.. :p



If age has caught Michael and he is unable to beat a so-so driver, I think that he will retire and Lewis might replace him. Although Vettel will be a good choice as well.

[EuroTroll]

If age has caught Michael and he is unable to beat a so-so driver, I think that he will retire and Lewis might replace him. Although Vettel will be a good choice as well.

RTL has recently made a big deal of Mercedes being the Deutsche Nationalmannschaft. Even though it's a British team, it appears to the casual viewer to be fully German. I wonder if this is important for Mercedes... If so, they obviously wouldn't hire Hamilton.

[Mia 01]

I don't think Lewis is going to sack off his relationship with Mclaren over one race. Lewis is too arrogant and headstrong to be a quitter IMO. At the moment the Mercedes is lacking the pace of the Mclaren, and the thought of Lewis jumping ship early season doesn't ring true in my eyes. Lewis after he had composed himself, gave a very mature statement to the BBC where he praised Button. Obviously he was seething inside at what could have been, and it was a bad call by the team, but he has come through situations like this in the past. I don't expect Button top be out performing him at every race, but I do expect this on occasion. The conditions in Oz suited Jenson and he did a fantastic job IMO.

Button has the advantage of being in his eleventh season F1, and Lewis is now in only his fourth. Button made a great call on Sunday, and this is something Lewis will learn in time. I just hope Lewis doesn't jump in at the next race and insist on calling his own strategy and make a right royal cock up off the back of this race.

I don't think there is any animosity between the two drivers, as I don't think Button is the type of character who would allow a feud to develop. :)

Agreed. Button is a quick and mature driver.

I for starter cant se Button in an affair as for example "Liegate"

If Lewis is going to do only his one calls the uppcomming races, ahh, well.

[wedge]

James Allen made a good point that Hamilton won the title very early in his career, but that doesn't mean he's a complete driver.

I find it incredibly frustrating that Hamilton shows signs of unwilling to learn and to think for himself. There is never a Plan B, always Plan A: expecting his God-given talent to bail him out/save the day.

[jens]

Wrong way round.

There is no need for Hamilton to leave.

The problem is Hamilton, not the team. He should be able to think for himself, not leave it to the team all the time.

Well, there is a difference between what we think he should do, and his way of thinking. We are not living through the experiences he does, and don't know, what kind of feelings do they create. I don't know exactly, how does Lewis' relationship with the team look like and what is the exact attitude towards each other. Of course you may say there is no "practical need" as such to leave, but this is purely from a rational point of view. But it's unclear, what do Lewis' emotions tell him - maybe he feels he needs other people around him. Well, dad is not his manager any more either - maybe you can say too that there was "no need" to let him go, but what does that count?

All in all I expect Hamilton to leave McLaren one day for sure, it's just the question of when - it may not happen after this year, it may also happen after 2012. It's just part of human nature for the driver to need a new challenge and a change of environment as such. Alonso got tired of Renault in '05 and wanted to join McLaren. Schumacher left the support of Mercedes quite quickly after reaching F1. Button felt the need for a change last year. Who knows, when will Vettel get frustrated of the endlessly disintegrating Red Bulls.

I personally think that the co-operation with Ross Brawn would do well to improve Hamilton's personality and also his ability to think strategically. Some people here have said that Hamilton isn't improving quickly enough and is still doing the same mistakes - maybe that's why he needs a new environment, maybe he feels his personal progress has stagnated by having been part of McLaren's family all life. As for Mercedes not being quick enough at the moment - well, at least now they have money to develop the car, which they didn't have last year, so they are expected to start moving forward again.

[wedge]

I wouldn't say he is unwilling to learn as such and I wouldn't go as far to say that Button makes all the calls on his strategy in every race either. Button made an amazing call but does this mean we should assume he does this at every event? I've heard Hamilton in the past asking for new tyres over the radio and the team complying, which isn't vastly different to this scenario. Obviously the difference is the fact that it was a great call and ultimately won Button the race.

What we don't know is the full radio exchanges leading up to the second stop. Did Lewis query the decision? Did Lewis feel he could manage the graining phase without compromising the race performance of the tyres?

Nevertheless, his past form isn't good reading is it?

China 2007, Singapore 2008, Brazil 2008 had his strategy dictated by the team.

Lost the title with silly pass in Brazil 2007, almost lost the title in Fuji 2008 with silly pass.

Checkers or wreckers attitude in Italy 2009.

Only impresssive thing I can think of is Silverstone 2008 when the team told Lewis to slow down but even that was due to reliance of talent alone and not brains.

[wedge]

I get the impression now after Sunday that alot of people have got the opinion that drivers are expected to call their strategy more often than was previously discussed. Jenson made a great call and now his teammate's ability is called into question?

I think people like Ross Brawn should start looking for another job as their strategic abilities are looking even more redundant after Button has now paved the way for the rest.. :p

Today, with refuelling banned there is more onus on drivers to the shots. Gone are the days of Ross Brawn telling Schumi to do a 3-stopper.

Anyhow, Alonso winning in Fuji 2008 was a great win. He dictated the pit strategy because he knew and wanted to take advantage of Kubica's graining problems.

Remind me why Prost's moniker is 'The Professor'?


Don't you find it worrying that even now Hamilton learns from mistakes? He is yet to be the complete driver.

[SGWilko]

Don't you find it worrying that even now Hamilton learns from mistakes? He is yet to be the complete driver.

Not at all, everyone is always learning all the time. It's called life.....

[wedge]

Not at all, everyone is always learning all the time. It's called life.....

He has quite a serious flaw for top driver he can't think for himself. This is his fourth season is F1 and has yet to show signs of maturing.

[Sleeper]

fair point about being out front. But I don't recall him overtaking kubica on the track
The cameras were on board with Button at the time, going into turn 13 just after Kubica stop. He was clearly past but the shot cut to Vettels pit stop before he had even past the apex of the corner. A quick shot but a clear pass.

I watched the Monaco GP from 2008 yesterday and in the early part of the race Dave Ryan came on the radio and said:

"Hows the track out there Lewis?... We've got the inters ready, what do you want to do?"

Lewis made the call to stay on full wets, combined with the teams strategy of fueling to the end which ultimately paid off and won him the race after his unfortunate barrier clipping. I think alot of people have jumped on the band wagon with saying that Lewis never makes decisions from within the cockpit, but this was evidently not the case and he was doing this as early as his second season in F1. :)

One Swallow does not make a Spring.

The number of times that Hamilton has relied on the pitwall to do all his thinking far outweighs the occasions he has thought for himself.

[BeansBeansBeans]

It never ceases to amaze me how little knowledge people feel they need to attain before becoming an expert.

We were made aware that Button made a good call on strategy ergo Hamilton is rubbish.

[EuroTroll]

I think in stable conditions the strategy is more of a team effort than in quickly changing conditions when it tends to be the driver's call. That all there really is to it, isn't it?

[Retro Formula 1]

Good post Henners. I was just about to post the same.

In recent cars, a lot of advice and decisions come from the pit wall because of the complexity of driving them. Computers crunch out optimum refuel windows, tyre wear against down-force and predicted clear track release zones. The most dramatic successes were experience by the Brawn / Schumacher relationship. That's not to say that Schumacher didn't make any decisions. Of course he did but they operated as a team using all available resources and had dramatic success as a consequence.

I don't know if Lewis or Jenson or Nico or Alonso make more decisions than each other and don't really care. Massa for example has probably a closer working relationship with Rob than any other driver and sometimes it seems to be a race driven by committee but does that really matter?

[SGWilko]

One Swallow does not make a Spring.
.

True, but I find it helps with marital relations......... ;)

Happy April fools everybody.....

[Retro Formula 1]

It never ceases to amaze me how little knowledge people feel they need to attain before becoming an expert.

We were made aware that Button made a good call on strategy ergo Hamilton is rubbish.

Precisely. Facts and statistics can be made to prove anything in F1. Sometimes even the truth!!

True, but I find it helps with marital relations......... ;)


What you and Henners get up to in your lovenest is no business of ours, thanks.

[wedge]

That may be the case but do we have the stats to tell us how often every other driver makes their own decisions? They are not often credited on the TV coverage, and this is the first time to my knowledge that Button has made such a dramatic call on his strategy. He may have done this many times in the past for all we know. Alonso has been credited on a couple of ocassions, but then he has said that he lets the team decide race strategy which is kind of contradictory. Its abit of as black area and we can only judge by what we see on the TV.

In Australia Rob Smedley was telling Felipe how to drive through the last two corners which I have not heard since the days of Takuma Sato. Even Brundle was surprised that a race engineer was telling a driver how to drive. "You need to get on the power earlier Felipe, you're losing time in those last two corners.. Lift off and on quicker!".

My original point was more to the people who are convinced that Lewis is not yet at the stage of making his own decisions, which is not the case. How often he does this is anybodies guess, and thats a guess at best. :)

Massa less of a natural talent than Hamilton is hardly news.

Why did Hamilton feel the need to go out on inters during quali in Monza 2008 when he might as well protect his position in the WDC for the duration of the GP weekend?


Exactly, I think people who are not necessarily fond of Lewis have seen this instance as an opportunity to draw a parallel that he is the less complete driver than Button.

Utter fanboy nonsense!

You're as bad as St. Devote!

Hamilton is a favourite driver of mine. As a purist I enjoy his attacking driving style a la Gilles Villenueve, Senna, Mansell, Schumi et al.

I regard Hamilton as the more complete driver because he does not need to think regarding adapting his driving to the car and the condtions.

His spare thinking capacity and much more than Button (there, I said it!) and it seems doesn't know how to use it except to expect the use of natural talent to make up the difference.

[wedge]

Ouch.
I agree with your last comments apart from the above sentences, not quite sure why you've got so hot under the collar. I offered my opinion that I feel Hamilton makes his own decisions from time to time like any other driver and don't feel Jenson is the only one who does this. I do think Jenson has experience on his side and maybe has a better insight considering he has been in F1 for 10 years now. The media have been all over Hamilton since Sunday trying to make out that the team prefer Jenson, and saying he is totally reliant on the team, and I offered 2 scenario's where this is not the case. Nothing controversial or fanboy-ish about that. :confused:

Yes, Hamilton has made decisions but he is still too reliant on the team to help him out.

Experience helps but Button has been in F1 for 10 years and still struggles to out-drive the car when its initially bad or get heat into the tyres in cool conditions. Its learning from them that matters.

Anyhow, experience had nothing to do with Button's decision. Overtaken by a team mate who came from no-where was the final straw, took the initiative and make the gamble work.

You seem to think because I critique Hamilton does not make me a person who dislikes Hamliton or let alone a hater. This is what gets me under my skin in forums. To criticise must mean you're a hater to some degree.

[BeansBeansBeans]

You seem to think because I critique Hamilton does not make me a person who dislikes Hamliton or let alone a hater. This is what gets me under my skin in forums. To criticise must mean you're a hater to some degree.

I completely agree :up:

[jens]

I watched the Monaco GP from 2008 yesterday and in the early part of the race Dave Ryan came on the radio and said:

"Hows the track out there Lewis?... We've got the inters ready, what do you want to do?"

Lewis made the call to stay on full wets, combined with the teams strategy of fueling to the end which ultimately paid off and won him the race after his unfortunate barrier clipping. I think alot of people have jumped on the band wagon with saying that Lewis never makes decisions from within the cockpit, but this was evidently not the case and he was doing this as early as his second season in F1. :)

Err, I'm pretty sure Lewis stayed on intermediates. Those drivers, who opted for full wets (Toyotas, Renaults) started struggling significantly after 1/3 of the race on the drying track. Remember, all drivers switched to dry tyres for the final stint.

Err, I'm pretty sure Lewis stayed on intermediates. Those drivers, who opted for full wets (Toyotas, Renaults) started struggling significantly after 1/3 of the race on the drying track. Remember, all drivers switched to dry tyres for the final stint.

Not to mention that Hamilton clipped the Tabac guardrail, making an early stop and refuel a necessity and not a strategy call that then greatly helped him gain track position, track position gained through fortune and not foresight.

If 2008 Monaco GP is one of the better examples of Hamiltons decision making, it appears that firstly, he isn't actually good at calling instant strategy decisions from within the cockpit and, secondly, his supporters are rattled.

"Hows the track out there Lewis?... We've got the inters ready, what do you want to do?"

Which is not the same as telling the team what you are going to do.

The example you have given is of the team asking what the driver wants, rather than the driver telling the team that he is calling a strategy change.

The example you have given is of a team prompting a response from a driver.

[Mia 01]

Lewis is a great driver if you like ruthless drivers.

He has building up a reputation the last years just like Mark.

But I kind don´t mind his driver antics, its the other part I mind.

The last big one "Liegate"

[wedge]

Not at all, we're here to debate and I haven't accused you of anything. I criticise Hamilton on ocassion and I'm not a hater either, and I wouldn't class myself as a "fanboy" under the same criteria.

I think you've incorrectly accused me of attacking you when I've been trying to compare both Button and Hamilton without devaluing either of their performances. I was just trying to make clear that Hamilton has called his strategy in the past and put to bed the myth that its beyond Lewis' expertise to do such a task. :)

And what did you mean by this comment:


Exactly, I think people who are not necessarily fond of Lewis have seen this instance as an opportunity to draw a parallel that he is the less complete driver than Button.

One would argue that accusing one of being not fond of Lewis as a hater.

OK I concede...
http://aintnokindofwriter.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/columbo-11.jpg
Lewis is sh!t.. :s mokin:

So no comment on your argument being proven to be false and crap.

[truefan72]

I meant exactly what the comment suggests. We all have our favourite drivers or teams and we can't get away from the fact that Lewis is the most discussed/popular F1 driver by a country mile. Whether its positive or negative most topics usually end up with Hamilton being discussed on most F1 related forums on the internet. I think "hater" is a strong word to use and its not something I was suggesting.

I think you've fallen into the forum style trap of trying to distinguish between two types of viewpoint by adding a label. If only it was that simple, but with a sport full of complexities, people have differing views and most are drawn to one particular driver or team. In my case I like both Button and Lewis, but overall I would support Lewis to the WDC out of the two because I enjoy his driving style. Its exciting IMO. That doesn't mean I'm a "hater" towards Button does it? I took pleasure in his victory on Sunday as I've displayed in here, and it was a positive after arguably Lewis' greatest race to date was ruined in the dying moments. I applauded his call but have defended the fact that Lewis is more than capable of making a call like this himself on ocassion. He didn't take control on Sunday but hey thats life.

One thing I've learnt about this type of arena is that fans like to label other fans. If you are overly critical of ones favourite, the hater card is played. If you defend or enjoy the sucess of your favourite driver, you are labelled as a "fanboy". Its a common pattern wherever F1 is discussed and is usually the last form of defense when ones arguement is failing in my experience. Don't fall into the trap I say... :)

:up:

we can't get away from the fact that Lewis is the most discussed/popular F1 driver by a country mile.

Cobblers.

He is one of the most popular, but he ain't at Schumacher levels yet.

[markabilly]

That

In Australia Rob Smedley was telling Felipe how to drive through the last two corners which I have not heard since the days of Takuma Sato. Even Brundle was surprised that a race engineer was telling a driver how to drive. "You need to get on the power earlier Felipe, you're losing time in those last two corners.. Lift off and on quicker!".

. :)


?????
This happens all the time, we just do not get to hear it very often, that is all...

another example of tech and reducing driver skill......in the good ole days, it was totally up to the driver to figure out how best to drive the car, and there was little else anyone could do. But with all the electronics, the pit wall can tell exactly what is faster, slower, where the driver is making up time, where he is losing and so forth......

And after each practice the driver can look at the data along with the engineers and see it for himself.......

so in all reality, while the team needs some feedback from the driver, it really is not necessary....As to Button, I do not beleive for a second, that this was all his call.......probably more like that is what he said he wanted, and the team looked at all their computer data, did the calculations and then let him do it. Or they already did the study and then asked what do you want.....

OTOH, if they thought otherwise, a different result would have been imposed.

As to H, clearly he had toasted his tires. If he wanted to get further up the field, then he needed the change.....the problem is that passing close to equal cars is NOT going to happen much, if at all....except where drivers are crashing out or it is raining....so at the end, it did not matter...and LH was fussing over nuthin

but did give us all something to talk about

[BeansBeansBeans]

Cobblers.

He is one of the most popular, but he ain't at Schumacher levels yet.

Hamilton divides opinion more than any other current driver. Although Michael's now back on the scene, he isn't back up to speed and isn't at the front, so nobody is too bothered.

[wedge]

One thing I've learnt about this type of arena is that fans like to label other fans. If you are overly critical of ones favourite, the hater card is played. If you defend or enjoy the sucess of your favourite driver, you are labelled as a "fanboy". Its a common pattern wherever F1 is discussed and is usually the last form of defense when ones arguement is failing in my experience. Don't fall into the trap I say... :)

I criticise Button last year for winning WDC and I was labelled a Button hater, I criticize Hamilton and it is because 'I'm not fond of him'

Go figure

[Mia 01]

Another weekend to forget for Lewis. Jenson is right there as he is needed.

[Retro Formula 1]

Dear oh dear. I have just wasted minutes of my life reading a childrens p1ssing contest.

I guess the discussion about Senna / Prost is concluded and it's time for "my dad's bigger than your dad".

Why do all threads here seem to descend into this sort of triviality. Do you people really behave like this in real life of do you lose all sense of respect and perspective when armed with a keyboard.

Outta here!

[wedge]

When I suggested people were "not fond" of Lewis I was being diplomatic.

Try harder next time

[slorydn1]

Following on from a point in another thread, there's a stereotype which would suggest that Jenson Button doesn't always look like the most spectaular driver, but he's methodical and calculating and blessed with a remarkable sympathy for his car.

Lewis Hamilton is the one you'd pay to watch, he's clearly a frighteningly quick driver but there's always the fear that he'll make a rash move or let his heart rule his head.

Obviously it's far to early to draw concusions, but after Australia those stereotypes ring true. Nobody really noticed Jenson all weekend yet his inspired tactical call put him in position to win the race, his steady laps in the mid-race ensured his tyres survived for over 50 laps to complete the job.

Lewis had a run-in with the law, fluffed qually then lashed out at his team over the radio, yet few would rule out his winning races this season.

They're both World Champions, and now they're both at McLaren. Are we seeing parallels to an earlier era when that team were home to Alain and Ayrton?

As they say at Olympic throwing events: discus.

I agree with the premise of this post,but not completely.

When Senna and Prost were having their battles, they were clearly the best 2 drivers with the best car on the grid. It was them, and everybody else fighting for P3.

With Button V Hamilton, yes, they are both former WDC's, but are they the best 2 drivers on the grid(?), and clearly they don't have the best car. They have a lot of competition with as many as 7 other drivers (Massa, Alonzo, Vettel, Webber, Rosberg, Schumacher, and Kubica,) from 4 other teams (Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes, and Renault,) that could win (or have won) races this year.

All that said, yes, I do see an interesting parallel, and it will be great fun to watch that all play out in the next few years :up:

[wedge]

When Senna and Prost were having their battles, they were clearly the best 2 drivers with the best car on the grid. It was them, and everybody else fighting for P3.

They were also at their peak.

Assuming - age wise - Button is at his peak and Hamilton has yet to peak.

[slorydn1]

They were also at their peak.

Assuming - age wise - Button is at his peak and Hamilton has yet to peak.


Very true :up:

[fizzicist]

dB quite nicely put across what I've been thinking would happen since the news broke that Jenson would partner Lewis at McLaren.

Everyone thought he was stark staring mad.

However, for the last fourteen to fifteen years or so, F1 has involved refuelling and the races have been reduces to a series of sprints where managing the car as the fuel load, tyre wear and handling changes is a skill that was lost for a long time. i.e. Mechanical sympathy is being rewarded again.

While it's no secret I've long been a fan of Jenson, the reason I liked his driving was precisely these reasons - he didn't look quick but was quick.

Alarmingly so.

My prediction for this year at the back end of 2009 was that Hamilton would take Jenson apart in qualifying. My gut feeling is that Lewis has about one to two tenths of ultimate pace over Jenson, however come race day Hamilton would struggle to cope with the sheer relentlessness of Jenson and just how ridiculously consistent he is over a race.

I did not think Jenson would be 3-0 up in qualifying and have two wins...

So, back to Dave's initial question - yes I agree. We have one driver who is smooth, gentle on the car and staggeringly quick. We have another who at times appears to be from another planet in terms of car control, is spectacular to watch (I would pay silly money to see Hamilton qualifying a car on super sticky qualifying tyres, low fuel and a qualifying set up) and very committed.

The Prost/Senna comparison IS appropriate, neither Jenson or Lewis should be compared to them in terms of ability until their respective careers are over. However in terms of style they are similar characters.

I seem to recall that Prost won a championship with Senna as team mate and Senna won a championship with Prost as team mate...different approaches, same result.

P.S - The Prost/Lauda comparison is interesting, I think at the end of 1984 Prost was a much more rounded driver than he had previously been, learning immensely from his team mate. I think given the respect Lewis clearly has for Jenson (based on their Karting days as Lewis is significantly younger than JB and grew up looking up to Jenson's Karting record), Lewis will learn from Jenson and be a much more complete driver in 2011.

[SGWilko]

Senna HAD to be the best. His only care was to beat the current BEST driver. 89 & 90, Senna saw Prost as the best. Prost had a weakness in that he was not naturally ruthless, Senna used that to his advantage.

I see neither Lewis or Jenson has having to go to extremes to win.

Lewis still has a lot to learn, and has a while to go before he is at his peak. Jenson appears to be at the top of his game.