Donkey of the race

[christophulus]

Is there really a contest?

Webber for ruining what could've been a great last two laps.

[Garry Walker]

Webbo easily. Also a bit questionable why Webber and Hamilton pitted.

[Koz]

Webber the dumb ****.

I'll add Hamilton to the list for being a little b*tch.

[truefan72]

webber!!!!!!!!!!!

I am so frustrated

[ShiftingGears]

Webber

[Dave B]

Alonso was an early contender for his start, but made up for it with a stella drive through the field. So it has to be Webber.

[Tumbo]

Webber - definitely seems that last yr was nothing short of an exception to the rule that his middle name is brain fade - unluckiest man in F1 my left foot he just makes far too many mistakes

[Alfa Fan]

Garry Walker. As usual.

[Caroline]

Mark Webber...sadly.

[gloomyDAY]

Red Bull Racing!

Mark Webber for punting Lewis. (Jesus, why?!)

Red Bull's technical director for the brake failure on Vettel's car.

Team principal for terrible strategy on Webber's pitstop.

[Garry Walker]

Garry Walker. As usual.

hahahaha
I didnt know i had said something controversial today, but I guess I did then :D

[Robinho]

Webber F**ed up a few times, managing to put himself behind slower cars with mistakes and then stuffing into a fight that wasn't his yet - i think ambition overcame adhesion - too much Aussie grit, too keen to perform at home. he'll be back and should win races this year, but thrown points away again.

honorary mention to Hamilton and Webbers pit crews for giving up track position for questionable strategy calls on the tyres

[F1boat]

Webber, obviously he was very nervous.

[AndyL]

hahahaha
I didnt know i had said something controversial today, but I guess I did then :D

I think Alfa Fan is being a bit unfair, I thought finding something negative to say about Jenson's performance was quite a remarkable achievement :p

[ioan]

Obviously Webber.
Close 2nd for teh Ferrari pit crew for losing Massa 2 places at their only tire change.

[ArrowsFA1]

Webber, no doubt.

Not donkey of the race, but I have no idea how Massa ended up on the podium. He spent the race seemingly holding up Alonso and generally looking more like the Felipe of a few years ago. Still, he did make it to the podium.

[AndyL]

My donkey of the race: Bridgestone, for producing "soft" tyres that can last three quarters of a race.

[gloomyDAY]

Michelle Michibata for not wearing a higher mini skirt.

[DexDexter]

Webber.

[Hawkmoon]

Obviously Webber.
Close 2nd for teh Ferrari pit crew for losing Massa 2 places at their only tire change.

Don't be so harsh on the Scuderia my friend. They had to hold Massa up because of traffic in the pitlane and the new rule about not releasing cars into traffic.

If you want to blame Ferrari for anything I'd blame them for being fair and not moving Massa over to allow a clearly faster Alonso through. Alonso might have won had they done that.

I think people are being a little harsh on Webber for the incident with Hamilton. The McLaren was practically stopped when they collided. It was still Webber's fault but I've seen a lot worse.

[donKey jote]

Webber, no doubt.

Not donkey of the race, but I have no idea how Massa ended up on the podium. He spent the race seemingly holding up Alonso and generally looking more like the Felipe of a few years ago. Still, he did make it to the podium.

yep :up:

still it was clever tactics by ferrari... there´s no way massa would have held ham and webber so long :p

[Ranger]

Donkey of the race goes to Red Bull Racing. Strategy was questionable, brakes shouldn't have failed and Webber was Paul Tracy-esque today.


I think people are being a little harsh on Webber for the incident with Hamilton. The McLaren was practically stopped when they collided. It was still Webber's fault but I've seen a lot worse.

That's true.

Honourable mention to Schumacher, who should have been much further up, even with 3 pitstops.

[christophulus]

I think people are being a little harsh on Webber for the incident with Hamilton. The McLaren was practically stopped when they collided. It was still Webber's fault but I've seen a lot worse.

Fair point. I watched it again and he just seemed to miss his braking point, still his fault but I think a penalty would be very harsh. He still gets the donkey vote though, far too nervous.

[callum122]

Webber... not the real deal.

gloomyDay touched on this, the grid girls and those silly outfits.

[EuroTroll]

Has to be Webber. Silly, silly man. Twice!

[Josti]

While in between his mistakes, I thought his driving was impressive, Webber's still the donkey.

[Robinho]

the last mistake probably wouldn't have made him donkey, but he came out on slicks just ahead of Massa and went straight off, overtook Massa but failed to yield to Hamilton and went off, hitting lewis and both ending up behind Massa again. then when having an opportunity of following Hamilton past Alonso on the exit of the corner, misjudeged it and took them both out.

all that in arguably the fastest car. too many mistakes, to eager to impress and too hot headed

[Valve Bounce]

the last mistake probably wouldn't have made him donkey, but he came out on slicks just ahead of Massa and went straight off, overtook Massa but failed to yield to Hamilton and went off, hitting lewis and both ending up behind Massa again. then when having an opportunity of following Hamilton past Alonso on the exit of the corner, misjudeged it and took them both out.

all that in arguably the fastest car. too many mistakes, to eager to impress and too hot headed

Too much Red Bull. :eek:

[mattlamb]

Not donkey of the day but I would add that Felipe Massa's weaving on the straight when people were trying to overtake him was extremely dangerous.

Obviously, Mark Webber messed up causing the crash with Lewis Hamilton but surprised no one else has picked up on this weaving. Not that it helped him much really- it just slowed him down and led to the cars in behind being able to stay close to him. Still extremely dangerous down a 180 mph straight. Alonso and Kubica showed how it's meant to be done when defending a position.

This weaving deserves to be punished more than what plained plain mistakes by Webber on a day when he was having a go and looking in an extremely racy mood. We do want excitement, don;t we?

[ioan]

Don't be so harsh on the Scuderia my friend. They had to hold Massa up because of traffic in the pitlane and the new rule about not releasing cars into traffic.

Somehow Renault and Mercedes managed to release their drivers no matter the traffic. Rosberg was 2 seconds behind Massa when they went into the pits and he came out 1 second in front of him. 3 seconds id a lot of time lost there.



If you want to blame Ferrari for anything I'd blame them for being fair and not moving Massa over to allow a clearly faster Alonso through. Alonso might have won had they done that.

C'mon Hawk Lewis didn't manage to get past the Renault even though he had a speed advantage on the straights, how could Alonso get past him especially that he was probably not much faster than Massa?


I think people are being a little harsh on Webber for the incident with Hamilton. The McLaren was practically stopped when they collided. It was still Webber's fault but I've seen a lot worse.

To be fair from the overhead replay it was obvious that Webber somehow didn't realize that he was going way to fast given the situation, totally his fault.

[ioan]

Honourable mention to Schumacher, who should have been much further up, even with 3 pitstops.

:rotflmao:

Why not try to win the race on 4 stops or something along the lines? :rolleyes:

Can't you come up with anything better to slag him off? Pathetic.

[steveaki13]

Same as most

Webber he seemed to be trying way to hard and in the end made several mistakes.

[ST205GT4]

Webber. Although whilst all of the driving mistakes where his fault, he wasn't helped by being left to hang out to dry with the first set of tyre changes. That put him back in the pack having to try and get past people, when he'd already managed to get himself behind Vettel after his poor start.

I have to say after today's performance I've lost any belief that Mark can ever really be a contender. I'm sure he'll win a race or two this year as the Red Bull is obviously a rocket, but that will be about it.

Feel sorry for Vettel. He's being severely let down by his equipment thus far. When's his contract up at RBR?

[ioan]

Webber. Although whilst all of the driving mistakes where his fault, he wasn't helped by being left to hang out to dry with the first set of tyre changes. That put him back in the pack having to try and get past people, when he'd already managed to get himself behind Vettel after his poor start.

I have to say after today's performance I've lost any belief that Mark can ever really be a contender. I'm sure he'll win a race or two this year as the Red Bull is obviously a rocket, but that will be about it.

They can't change tires on both car in the same time so the one who's in front get's the choice of being first, tough luck for lil' Oz donkey but he needs to get himself into that position first.

[Hawkmoon]

Somehow Renault and Mercedes managed to release their drivers no matter the traffic. Rosberg was 2 seconds behind Massa when they went into the pits and he came out 1 second in front of him. 3 seconds id a lot of time lost there.



C'mon Hawk Lewis didn't manage to get past the Renault even though he had a speed advantage on the straights, how could Alonso get past him especially that he was probably not much faster than Massa?



To be fair from the overhead replay it was obvious that Webber somehow didn't realize that he was going way to fast given the situation, totally his fault.

The BBC pitlane reporter said Ferrari had to hold Massa up because they couldn't release him into traffic. That's bad luck and nothing to do with poor performance by the crew. With that many cars in the pitlane it was a lottery as to when the car could be released.

Alonso was faster than Massa all weekend. If Ferrari moved him ahead of Massa straight after the stops then I think Alonso would have a better shot at Kubica because he was clearly happier with the car.

I'm not upset that they didn't pull team orders, it's too early in the season for that but it's hard to argue that Alonso wouldn't have had a better shot at winning than Massa.

I acknowledged it was Webber's fault. I just don't think it was that bad.

[F1boat]

:rotflmao:

Why not try to win the race on 4 stops or something along the lines? :rolleyes:

Can't you come up with anything better to slag him off? Pathetic.

He won once with 4 stops, hence the high expectations LOL.

[ST205GT4]

They can't change tires on both car in the same time so the one who's in front get's the choice of being first, tough luck for lil' Oz donkey but he needs to get himself into that position first.

Obviously. However, instead of falling asleep at the wheel RBR management should have had Vettel in the same lap as the rest of the field, not a lap later. And therefore Mark two laps later.

[mattlamb]

At least Webber was trying to overtake people and make the most of a strategy that in hindsight wasn't the right one, albeit marked by mistakes that led to him having to attempt to do the hard work all over again.
Not saying, that it wasn't worth the McLaren, Red Bull, Mercedes and Toro Rosso teams attempting the two stop strategy. It was well worth a go but didn't work today. Even if it was down to the characteristics of the car/driver that led the teams feeling they had to make the decision. Just hope the fact it didn;t work today doesn;t discourage teams from trying the same type of thing in picture. I fear there will be a lot of boring races this season if teams always choose similar strategies

[mattlamb]

I agree Red Bull strategy was not good on first stop. Should have pitted at least one of their cars earlier. Unfortunately, Red Bull make rather a habit of making the wrong call.
Ferrari got it right today, as it turned out. They often get it wrong too

[Ranger]

:rotflmao:

Why not try to win the race on 4 stops or something along the lines? :rolleyes:

Can't you come up with anything better to slag him off? Pathetic.

Not slagging. He has merely been underwhelming thus far in his comeback.

20 laps behind a Toro Rosso today wasn't exactly impressive. Hopefully he will be better in Malaysia.

[AJP]

20 laps behind a Toro Rosso today wasn't exactly impressive.

All this is, is making it more clear how just how hard it is to get the car to perform when trailing behind. A car trailing another, loses so much down force that it is extremely difficult to overtake, and when you do get close enough, you better pray that no one in front brakes harder or earlier than they should, or you have the incident like Webber and Hamilton.

Alonso couldn't over take Massa, Schumacher couldn't over take Algeursuari,
Hamilton couldn't get past Alonso....

[Wasted Talent]

Webber. Although whilst all of the driving mistakes where his fault, he wasn't helped by being left to hang out to dry with the first set of tyre changes. That put him back in the pack having to try and get past people, when he'd already managed to get himself behind Vettel after his poor start.

I have to say after today's performance I've lost any belief that Mark can ever really be a contender. I'm sure he'll win a race or two this year as the Red Bull is obviously a rocket, but that will be about it.

Feel sorry for Vettel. He's being severely let down by his equipment thus far. When's his contract up at RBR?

Sorry, Webber was/never will be a contender.

Good driver, yes, potential champion, no, sorry.

As for today's race - Donkey by a long margin

WT

[Wasted Talent]

All this is, is making it more clear how just how hard it is to get the car to perform when trailing behind. A car trailing another, loses so much down force that it is extremely difficult to overtake, and when you do get close enough, you better pray that no one in front brakes harder or earlier than they should, or you have the incident like Webber and Hamilton.

Alonso couldn't over take Massa, Schumacher couldn't over take Algeursuari,
Hamilton couldn't get past Alonso....

Agree. The wet start masked the continuing problem of inability to pass the car in front.

Hamilton was over a second a lap quicker than either Kubica and Alonso and couldn't touch either, and he isn't shy of passing is he?

WT

[m.lowe]

Mad Max Webber which I think was pee'd off at hamilton passing him earlier he didn't want him being in front at his home race
what an "Eee-orrr"

[VkmSpouge]

I would have to go for Mark Webber, the crash at the end was entirely avoidable and completely his fault.
Red Bull strategy was also pretty dodgy today, they stayed on the wet tyres too long (almost costing Vettel his lead to Button) and Webber should not have needed that second stop. Same with the person at McLaren who thought bringing Lewis Hamilton into the pits was a good idea.

[Robinho]

i'm not convinced - i think Hamilton would have done Alonso on the exit if he hadn't been taken out by Webber. Watch the replay - Rosberg had enough of a run to nearly draw alongside Alonso and he was 2 cars back, Hamilton was just in the process of cutting back inside Alonso, who had locked a brake and went quite wide trying to retain position.

if webber had been a little more patient i think both he and Hamlton would have done Alonso before the next corner

[UltimateDanGTR]

webber. was lightning quick in parts and yet in others, scrappy and his punt on hamilton was blindingly silly. stupid boy! :D

[N. Jones]

It's a three-way tie between Alonso's first corner squeeze on Button, the Sauber team's inability to keep a front wing on that led to a nasty accident, and Webber's boneheaded move on Hamilton.

[maximilian]

Webbo this time. Way too many mistakes, and plowing into Hamilton out of nowhere was really silly. Hamilton gets honorable mention for lambasting his team publicly on the radio! Wtf?

[jeffmr2]

Webber yet again,i just dont understand why red bull stick with him.

[Ranger]

Webber yet again,i just dont understand why red bull stick with him.

He had a shocker today, no question.

But don't be so quick to throw him under the bus. :\

[woody2goody]

The donkey of the weekend (if indeed a car part can be a donkey) is the Sauber front wing, which nearly ended up killing Kobayashi, Hulkenburg and Buemi.

As for the race, Alonso for probably causing the first cornercrash, even though he drove a great race, Mercedes for stopping Schumacher again, forcing him to have to come through from the back two or three times, and Hamilton for being a whiner.

Webber gets half an ass for misjudging the incident with Hamilton when he could have probably passed both the cars in front of him with a little bit of patience.

[Saint Devote]

Webber the dumb ****.

I'll add Hamilton to the list for being a little b*tch.

Could not have said it better myself :D

I would also add that Hamilton did not drive well at all either. Maybe he is being pysched out by Jense?! :eek:

[Saint Devote]

The donkey of the weekend (if indeed a car part can be a donkey) is the Sauber front wing, which nearly ended up killing Kobayashi, Hulkenburg and Buemi.

BUT - de la Rosa has noit had the problems.

It suggests that Kobayashi is part of the problem. We know that he has a tendency to be a wild driver and maybe he is just out of his depth in F1.

[Saint Devote]

Webbo this time. Way too many mistakes, and plowing into Hamilton out of nowhere was really silly. Hamilton gets honorable mention for lambasting his team publicly on the radio! Wtf?

Webber did make errors today and is one of the "donkeys", but at racing speed Hamilton slowed suddenly because of trying overtake Alonso - it was not Webber's fault in that accident.

[woody2goody]

BUT - de la Rosa has noit had the problems.

It suggests that Kobayashi is part of the problem. We know that he has a tendency to be a wild driver and maybe he is just out of his depth in F1.

Well he did hit the cone in practice which may or may not have contributed to the failure he had in that particular session, but it looked like a very similar failure, which, to me at least, didn't look like it was driver-caused. Kobayashi didn't know what happened himself. I would reckon he would have owned up if he had made a mistake, and thinking back, I don't think he hit anyone at the start.

I agree, Pedro has not had the problems, but maybe that's because there's nothing wrong with his car? I thought Pedro drove well today by the way, as did Alguersuari, but both just couldn't keep Schumi behind.

[Pulidor]

Webber. Period
And not their faults really, but both Trulli not being able to start and Kobayashi causing havoc in first lap deserve an honorable mention for me.

As of second round, the Japanese driver takes an early lead as the fool of the season given the rules I wrote at the beginning, having retired from both races with mechanical failures, creating and accident with yellow flags, etc...
http://www.f1fools.com

[MrJan]

Why does this thread even exist? It could be re-titled the "Mark Webber f***s up the Aussie GP Thread" :D :D

What I find funny is that Mark is generally one of the drivers who will make a big fuss about one of the young'uns like Kobayashi making a stupid move. That pass on Hamilton was never on and it was just all kinds of stupid. Add to that a number of other silly errors and there is no real contest for Donkey.

I find it amazing that Saint Devote thinks that accident wasn't Mark's fault, he wouldn't have made that corner if the track was clear, he just braked far too late when there was never going to be a gap to exploit. It says a lot that he couldn't even make it a wheel to wheel crash. Stupid move by someone who nearly always has a stupid time at Melbourne.

[keysersoze]

As far as the top ten, I was very impressed with each driver's skill as well as bravado. On a street circuit, with walls an less run-off, things can go pear-shaped in a blink of an eye. Throw in changeable conditions and I'm inclined not to hand out any donkeys.

It was a shame to see so many drivers get taken out through no fault of their own early on. I felt especially bad for Trulli's DNS. I would've like to have seen all 24 on the circuit in the first 20 laps before conditions stabilized.

[Garry Walker]

Webber did make errors today and is one of the "donkeys", but at racing speed Hamilton slowed suddenly because of trying overtake Alonso - it was not Webber's fault in that accident.

Yeah, you ran into the back of someone who brakes for a CORNER and you arent at fault.

I would love to live in your "reality" for a day, that would be fun

[ioan]

Obviously. However, instead of falling asleep at the wheel RBR management should have had Vettel in the same lap as the rest of the field, not a lap later. And therefore Mark two laps later.

In that case why didn't Mark asked to pit before Vettel?!
As far as I know both team and driver take a decision.

[ioan]

The BBC pitlane reporter said Ferrari had to hold Massa up because they couldn't release him into traffic. That's bad luck and nothing to do with poor performance by the crew. With that many cars in the pitlane it was a lottery as to when the car could be released.

Alonso was faster than Massa all weekend. If Ferrari moved him ahead of Massa straight after the stops then I think Alonso would have a better shot at Kubica because he was clearly happier with the car.

I'm not upset that they didn't pull team orders, it's too early in the season for that but it's hard to argue that Alonso wouldn't have had a better shot at winning than Massa.

I acknowledged it was Webber's fault. I just don't think it was that bad.

Fair enough, except Alonso winning it, as he didn't show the pace needed for that. 2nd was possible though.

[ioan]

Not slagging. He has merely been underwhelming thus far in his comeback.

I am rather happy with how he did until now. I fail to see why those who never really liked the guy are now disappointed.

[markabilly]

Webber.

And for those who need more evidence to bash MS, how about the fact that he should have gotten himself clear of alonso's spin out on the first lap....or he might have won.... :rolleyes: :rotflmao:

[woody2goody]

I am rather happy with how he did until now. I fail to see why those who never really liked the guy are now disappointed.

I'm not going to bash Schumacher, because I think he's done well so far.

Plus, today, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, especially with Fernando failing to see he had cars on either side of him.

Michael's race was ruined the moment Button and Alonso collided.

And I hate this 'he was stuck behind a Toro Rosso so he must be s**t' mentality - Alguersuari drove a really good race today, dominated Buemi all weekend pretty much, and almost scored his first points in the race. And besides, Michael passed both he and de la Rosa near the end, so passing was not ridiculously hard.

It says to me that for the most part, the Mercedes was not quick enough in the right parts of the track in order to overtake. For example, Michael might have been quick in sector 2, but may not have been able to get close enough in sector 1 to make the pass. Might have been the other way round.

It also says that we should be giving credit to the young Spaniard, only in I believe his 10th Grand Prix, who was defending valiantly against a man with 240 GPs more experience and a quicker car. It wasn't necessarily anything Michael wasn't doing right.

Also, Michael wasn't helped by what was in my opinion a poor pit strategy. If the strategy had've been better, he wouldn't have had to pass Alguersuari twice, and would possibly have beaten Liuzzi.

[F1boat]

I am rather happy with how he did until now. I fail to see why those who never really liked the guy are now disappointed.

Pacewise he is OK, but in wheel to wheel battles he is very rusty IMO and I hope that he will improve. To be beaten by Barbie boy is not ideal IMO.

[F1boat]

Also, Michael wasn't helped by what was in my opinion a poor pit strategy.

This is worrying too, I expect the best from Ross, although he made some weird calls in 2005, when the car was weak, too.

[ioan]

All this is, is making it more clear how just how hard it is to get the car to perform when trailing behind. A car trailing another, loses so much down force that it is extremely difficult to overtake, and when you do get close enough, you better pray that no one in front brakes harder or earlier than they should, or you have the incident like Webber and Hamilton.

Alonso couldn't over take Massa, Schumacher couldn't over take Algeursuari,
Hamilton couldn't get past Alonso....

Spot on. Still people believe it is down to the tracks.

[ioan]

Pacewise he is OK, but in wheel to wheel battles he is very rusty IMO and I hope that he will improve. To be beaten by Barbie boy is not ideal IMO.

He had a great start and was leading Barbie when Fernando decided to destroy his race. Given how Rosberg is rather lackluster in wet conditions I have no doubts MS would have finished ahead of him today if not for Alonso's mistake.

[ioan]

Michael passed both he and de la Rosa near the end, so passing was not ridiculously hard.

And only MS managed to make passes stick when the track was dry, so he's on the right path IMO.

[F1boat]

And still some tracks like Melbourne and Spa produce very nice races while other do so more rarely.

[woody2goody]

Spot on. Still people believe it is down to the tracks.

Well that can be a cause definitely, but in this case, just because cars are close together doesn't mean there should be overtaking all the time. This reminds me a bit of Bernoldi and Coulthard at Monaco in 2001 I think - The Arrows driver kept Coulthard behind him for 40-odd laps, and yet very few people gave him compliments about his driving, they complained at Coulthard for not getting by. it is not always a one-way street.

Alonso and Massa were always fairly close to Kubica, but not ONCE did I see Felipe lining up a pass, or attempt one even.

[woody2goody]

And only MS managed to make passes stick when the track was dry, so he's on the right path IMO.

Well, not only him, but you're right, in essence it wasn't extremely difficult to pass on the dry track.

[F1boat]

And only MS managed to make passes stick when the track was dry, so he's on the right path IMO.

With Jaime it was very nice move, Pedro has destroyed his tyres. But still I hope for more in Brazil.

[truefan72]

I think people are being a little harsh on Webber for the incident with Hamilton. The McLaren was practically stopped when they collided. It was still Webber's fault but I've seen a lot worse.

not really check the replays, he did not run into the back of hamilton,. he tried to make a pass where there was no room and cut inside of hamilton and took both of them out

[ioan]

And still some tracks like Melbourne and Spa produce very nice races while other do so more rarely.

That's just a subjective impression. All tracks produced both interesting and boring races.

[F1boat]

That's just a subjective impression. All tracks produced both interesting and boring races.

Matter of opinion, to me Brazil, Oz and Belgium usually produce better races.

[truefan72]

I would also add that Hamilton did not drive well at all either. Maybe he is being pysched out by Jense?! :eek:

once again proving that you did not watch the race :down:

Hamilton drove outstanding today and if not called in for a 2nd pit stop would probably be 2nd coming from 11th on the girds. He passed your man Button at the start , made up 5 places and was on a tear all race long. I am not sure what you think "driving well" means, because if a driver can take another pitstop and still close down a 24 second gap to alonso with a real chance of passing them then you certainly don't understand the concept of driving an F1 car.

[ioan]

Alonso and Massa were always fairly close to Kubica, but not ONCE did I see Felipe lining up a pass, or attempt one even.

Did you read what I posted? It is almost impossible to pass in normal conditions without the guy in front making a mistake.

Once you get within 1 second of the car in front you lose so much downforce that you can not go through the turns as fast as the car you are trying to overtake, which means that you have no chances down the straights. Lewis with the super duper Mercedes engine and their F-duct system couldn't pass Kubica on the straights because he wasn't close enough through the corner preceding the straight.

[truefan72]

Webber did make errors today and is one of the "donkeys", but at racing speed Hamilton slowed suddenly because of trying overtake Alonso - it was not Webber's fault in that accident.

lol, high comedy

please go watch that race again and understand what happened before making ill informed statements. Webber saw exactly what was going on and tried to capitalize by making a move he should not have. He took himslef and Hamilton out in the process.Even Webber acknowledged his mistake and issued an apology. But I guess the saint knows best. lol

[ioan]

once again proving that you did not watch the race :down:

Hamilton drove outstanding today and if not called in for a 2nd pit stop would probably be 2nd coming from 11th on the girds. He passed your man Button at the start , made up 5 places and was on a tear all race long. I am not sure what you think "driving well" means, because if a driver can take another pitstop and still close down a 24 second gap to alonso with a real chance of passing them then you certainly don't understand the concept of driving an F1 car.

Exactly.

I find it laughable when people try to belittle the opposition even when their less than stellar favorite manages to luck into a win, it must be some kind of exacerbated inferiority complex showing it's ugly head.

[ioan]

Matter of opinion, to me Brazil, Oz and Belgium usually produce better races.

My point wasn't opinion, just check out for the past years and you will find boring and exciting races on every F1 track. That's a fact, not an opinion.

[truefan72]

Webber. Period
And not their faults really, but both Trulli not being able to start and Kobayashi causing havoc in first lap deserve an honorable mention for me.

As of second round, the Japanese driver takes an early lead as the fool of the season given the rules I wrote at the beginning, having retired from both races with mechanical failures, creating and accident with yellow flags, etc...
http://www.f1fools.com

explain to me how kobayashi is a fool when his car breaks down on him. By your analysis then vettel is an even bigger fool right? i detect a hint of distaste in your comments with regard to japanese drivers. why label him as "the japanese driver?" this is not A1GP

[ioan]

Well, not only him, but you're right, in essence it wasn't extremely difficult to pass on the dry track.

No kidding? Only one guy manages to stick two passing moves on the very limit of the track while 5 cars follow each other covered by 3 seconds for 10 laps without being able to overtake and you say it isn't extremely difficult?!
Let me know what's your definition for extremely difficult cause I am not sure that we have the same idea about it.

[ioan]

explain to me how kobayashi is a fool when his car breaks down on him. By your analysis then vettel is an even bigger fool right? i detect a hint of distaste in your comments with regard to japanese drivers. why label him as "the japanese driver?" this is not A1GP

Some people never get the facts before posting they just post based on their stereotypes, which is a huge shame.

[truefan72]

He had a great start and was leading Barbie when Fernando decided to destroy his race. Given how Rosberg is rather lackluster in wet conditions I have no doubts MS would have finished ahead of him today if not for Alonso's mistake.

that is pretty much how I see it. MSC showed good form this weekend and the conditions were right for him to make a good move. Its a shame we did not get to see him fighting it out with the other guys. Given the circumstances, its actually pretty good to finish with some points

[woody2goody]

No kidding? Only one guy manages to stick two passing moves on the very limit of the track while 5 cars follow each other covered by 3 seconds for 10 laps without being able to overtake and you say it isn't extremely difficult?!
Let me know what's your definition for extremely difficult cause I am not sure that we have the same idea about it.

Well Barrichello passed de la Rosa, likewise Schumacher and Alguersuari got past Pedro - i never said it was easy, but let's face it, it was easier than we have seen previously in dry races.

Also there would have been a good chance than Webber would have overtaken Alonso and Hamilton, Rosberg also, as Rosberg almost got Fernando anyway, so Lewis and Mark would have, had they not collided.

Did it occur to you that the 5 cars were very closely matched? Since when in recent memory (i.e. last few years) have we seen a 5 car battle for second position? Anyway, the cars on fresher tyres had a legitimate shot at passing them in the closing laps. In a way, Rosberg did, but it would have been a heck of a scrap without the crash at the end.

[Langdale Forest]

Webber was the ...http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Humor/Workshop/OL-Donkey-Cart.jpg

[woody2goody]

that is pretty much how I see it. MSC showed good form this weekend and the conditions were right for him to make a good move. Its a shame we did not get to see him fighting it out with the other guys. Given the circumstances, its actually pretty good to finish with some points

Exactly, he got SOMETHING out of the weekend, which could have been a lot worse for him. He possibly had some handling trouble after the first lap incident as well, which won't have helped him.

[truefan72]

No kidding? Only one guy manages to stick two passing moves on the very limit of the track while 5 cars follow each other covered by 3 seconds for 10 laps without being able to overtake and you say it isn't extremely difficult?!
Let me know what's your definition for extremely difficult cause I am not sure that we have the same idea about it.

plus Jaime did more than make it difficult for MSc to pass. some of his maneuvers where borderline. Anyway the next race is 6 days away and I think it will be a tight one.

btw did Vettel get a penalty for his move on Kubica last year?

[ioan]

btw did Vettel get a penalty for his move on Kubica last year?

I believe he did.

[K-Pu]

A bit alte and a bit expected, but my vote goes for Webber.

I believe he did.

A ten place grid penalty.

[ioan]

A ten place grid penalty.

Thanks for the info Tam. :up:

[Pulidor]

explain to me how kobayashi is a fool when his car breaks down on him. By your analysis then vettel is an even bigger fool right? i detect a hint of distaste in your comments with regard to japanese drivers. why label him as "the japanese driver?" this is not A1GP
I'm not analysing anything. I just set a bunch of rules (which you can like or not), and following them some drivers get more "fool points" than others. Quite objective, empirical approach actually. It's all about 1's and 0's. Yes or no.
For me, the donkey of the race is Webber, as it is quite obvious to most of us. I'm only saying that the Japanese driver (he's Japanese, right? maybe I'm wrong, I'm not sure...) got more points following those simple rules.

Not a Kobayashi basher here (Kobayasher? :laugh :) . Last year he raced in two GPs and impressed me as much as his results are disappointing me this year. So far, 2 races, constantly behind De la Rosa, and 2 DNFs (althought not his fault, any of them).

[ioan]

Not a Kobayashi basher here (Kobayasher? :laugh :) . Last year he raced in two GPs and impressed me as much as his results are disappointing me this year. So far, 2 races, constantly behind De la Rosa, and 2 DNFs (althought not his fault, any of them).

Then why mention him in this thread?

[truefan72]

I'm not analysing anything. I just set a bunch of rules (which you can like or not), and following them some drivers get more "fool points" than others. Quite objective, empirical approach actually. It's all about 1's and 0's. Yes or no.
For me, the donkey of the race is Webber, as it is quite obvious to most of us. I'm only saying that the Japanese driver (he's Japanese, right? maybe I'm wrong, I'm not sure...) got more points following those simple rules.

Not a Kobayashi basher here (Kobayasher? :laugh :) . Last year he raced in two GPs and impressed me as much as his results are disappointing me this year. So far, 2 races, constantly behind De la Rosa, and 2 DNFs (althought not his fault, any of them).

ok accepted, but I still don't understand how mechanical failures make him the #1 fool in your books.

By your set of standards then surely Vettel is a bigger fool

[Pulidor]

Then why mention him in this thread?
Well, so far you have explicitly talked in this thread about Webber, Massa, Rosberg, Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher and Kubica and I have no problem with it. I think that's the point in a forum.


ok accepted, but I still don't understand how mechanical failures make him the #1 fool in your books.
By your set of standards then surely Vettel is a bigger fool

Why should Vettel be a bigger fool? He didn't cause an accident and he didn't cause a safety car deployment. He just got a broken car and went off. Feel free to take a look at the rules that measure the points given.

BTW, what do you guys think about moderators setting a poll for both the driver and the donkey of the race? Not just for this GP, but on a regular basis. Just an idea.

[markabilly]

A ten place grid penalty.
webber should get the same.....

[ioan]

Well, so far you have explicitly talked in this thread about Webber, Massa, Rosberg, Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher and Kubica and I have no problem with it. I think that's the point in a forum.

You're trying to avoid an answer to the question.
FYI I only did call Webber the donkey of the race for the obvious reasons, so why did you mention Kobayashi as getting a mention as donkey of the race? :D

[MrJan]

Why should Vettel be a bigger fool? He didn't cause an accident and he didn't cause a safety car deployment. He just got a broken car and went off. Feel free to take a look at the rules that measure the points given.

Kobayashi didn't cause an accident either. His wing fell off and got stuck under the car, the fact that he hit 2 others was purely bad luck. Once the front wheels were in the air he had as much control of that car as I did sat on my sofa watching the repeat of the race :laugh: If Kobayashi gets worse marks than Vettel then your marking system has an obvious flaw.

[Pulidor]

Sorry Ioan, I already answered the question.
Besides, I said Webber is my chosen donkey as well, so we agree.
Any further discussion is irrelevant and stupid.

[Pulidor]

What I don't get is why everyone is so obsessed with Vettel. What exactly did he do worse than Kobayashi? :rolleyes: The way I see it, both of them just had car problems. Probably the position at the moment of the failures is the key for you here.

On the other hand, probably my point system is wrong, but the rules are the same for everyone. Anyway, it is a purely personal project for fun, so I'm not going to have arguments about it. Obviously, you don't seem to like it, so I won't mention it again. No problems here ;)

[MrJan]

What I don't get is why everyone is so obsessed with Vettel. What exactly did he do worse than Kobayashi? :rolleyes: The way I see it, both of them just had car problems. Probably the position at the moment of the failures is the key for you here.

On the other hand, probably my point system is wrong, but the rules are the same for everyone. Anyway, it is a purely personal project for fun, so I'm not going to have arguments about it. Obviously, you don't seem to like it, so I won't mention it again. No problems here ;)

No one has an issue with Vettel, merely pointing out that Kobayashi did no worse than him. You said that Kamui should have an 'honourable mention' but he was no more a donkey than Schumi losing his nose or Vettel having his accident. Alonso on the other hand very nearly ruined his race by stupidly turning in on Button.

[Pulidor]

Alright. Agreed. You are right. My mistake.
Besides Kobayashi and Trulli, I should've mentioned Vettel, Glock, di Grassi, Sutil, Senna, Buemi and Hulkenberg as well, for not being able to finish the race, despite not being their fault.
I won't continue discussing about this. It's so futile.

[Jag_Warrior]

Mark Webber = http://www.spiralpocus.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/clown.png

I just watched the race and that's all I have to say about that. :angryfire

[ojciec dyrektor]

Webber and Button for ruining others race.

[driveace]

To me the donkeys were McLaren,for bringing Lewis in for an unessesary 2 nd stop.He would have got passed Kubica i believe in the next few laps.They anticipated that the Ferraris,and Renault would come in for tyres,which they did not.So ruined Lewis ,s race

[ojciec dyrektor]

Out of interest, who's race did Button ruin?
Alonso's I think. Maybe it was racing accident and maybe not. Like Sutil who run into Kubica in Bahrain.

[ojciec dyrektor]

I quoted you and commented with my own opinion on another thread. :)

I respect Your opinion but I don't fully agree with it. :)

[MrJan]

Alonso's I think. Maybe it was racing accident and maybe not. Like Sutil who run into Kubica in Bahrain.

All Alonso's fault (or the stupid mirrors that Ferrari have), he turned in when Jenson was well up the inside.

[Mia 01]

Webber.

Reckless driving but I´m used to it now.

A few moore and he is out by the end of the season.

[anthonyvop]

Webber was just being Webber.....

For me it was Schumie: Right behind Alonso at the restart. Had a race long battle with Alguersuari............ALGUERSUARI????????

[AJP]

And besides, Michael passed both he and de la Rosa near the end, so passing was not ridiculously hard.



MS had to actually force the Spaniard of the racing line by making contact..why do you say that passing was not ridiculously hard...??

[Mia 01]

Webber was just being Webber.....

For me it was Schumie: Right behind Alonso at the restart. Had a race long battle with Alguersuari............ALGUERSUARI????????

You got a point no doubt.

[CNR]

Kobayashi didn't cause an accident either. His wing fell off and got stuck under the car, the fact that he hit 2 others was purely bad luck. Once the front wheels were in the air he had as much control of that car as I did sat on my sofa watching the repeat of the race :laugh: If Kobayashi gets worse marks than Vettel then your marking system has an obvious flaw.

if lewis han not slowed down so much mark would not have hit him

lewis was on the radio after the last stop saying that that set of tyres had gone off so how can he now claim that he did not need to make the last stop for tyres
team radio played on bbc coverage

[wedge]

Did you read what I posted? It is almost impossible to pass in normal conditions without the guy in front making a mistake.

Once you get within 1 second of the car in front you lose so much downforce that you can not go through the turns as fast as the car you are trying to overtake, which means that you have no chances down the straights.

Stop making excuses for Schumi, his performance was worthy of a donkey by his standards.

Stuck behind a Torro Rosso and having to race wheel to wheel against a Virgin!

It is difficult to pass when you have two cars on similar pace, but Mercedes should not be similar in pace with Torro Rosso.

[Valve Bounce]

And only MS managed to make passes stick when the track was dry, so he's on the right path IMO.

Wait a minute - you said there were no passes once the track dried. You can't have it both ways.

As for SchM trying to pass Algueserie, Martin did comment that Algueserie was using his formula Ford tactics to block very successfully. When there is only a thin dry line, passing would involve some very difficult maneuvers.

[ioan]

Stop making excuses for Schumi, his performance was worthy of a donkey by his standards.

His standards being those of a 3 year retired driver, he is doing great.
If you would have bothered to read a bit before starting the bashing fest you would know what Brawn already said, that the car was damaged more than just the front wing they changed.

Now, go ahead and troll some more.

[MrJan]

if lewis han not slowed down so much mark would not have hit him

lewis was on the radio after the last stop saying that that set of tyres had gone off so how can he now claim that he did not need to make the last stop for tyres
team radio played on bbc coverage

Lewis was slow because of the aero, not dodgy tyres as he thought. Tyres don't just drop 1.5secs of pace in 2 laps :) Even if it was the tyres then Jenson proved that you could drive through the graining phase and the tyres would come back to him. Brundle made that all fairly clear in the commentary

And Mark hit him when he was braking for a corner, Lewis couldn't have been any faster because Fernando was on the piece of tarmac in front of him. This isn't just another load of British fan defending British driver, it was fairly obvious that Webber was going too fast because he thought he might be able to follow LH through.

[CNR]

Lewis was slow because of the aero, not dodgy tyres as he thought. Tyres don't just drop 1.5secs of pace in 2 laps :) Even if it was the tyres then Jenson proved that you could drive through the graining phase and the tyres would come back to him. Brundle made that all fairly clear in the commentary

And Mark hit him when he was braking for a corner, Lewis couldn't have been any faster because Fernando was on the piece of tarmac in front of him. This isn't just another load of British fan defending British driver, it was fairly obvious that Webber was going too fast because he thought he might be able to follow LH through.

OK but how can lewis say that he did not need the tyres from the last stop ?
just because jensen made it to the end on the tyre dose not mean that lewis would have

[wedge]

His standards being those of a 3 year retired driver, he is doing great.
If you would have bothered to read a bit before starting the bashing fest you would know what Brawn already said, that the car was damaged more than just the front wing they changed.

Now, go ahead and troll some more.

He has done karting to fill his time

Schumi is one of my favourite drivers. I have called him Schumi and not Schuey because that is how he likes his name to be shortened/nickname.

By his standards he drove as if he should've stayed retired but I will give him the benefit of the doubt in future.

[Ent]

And Mark hit him when he was braking for a corner, Lewis couldn't have been any faster because Fernando was on the piece of tarmac in front of him. This isn't just another load of British fan defending British driver, it was fairly obvious that Webber was going too fast because he thought he might be able to follow LH through.

I just watched a replay of the accident again and I noticed Alonso badly locked up a brake on that corner. Hamilton was right up beside Alonso and in a great position to finally pass him on the outside and instead slammed on his brakes (as he had to as Alonso didn't have control of his car). Unfortunately, Webber was trying to follow Hamilton through past Alonso and had nowhere to go, taking out Hamilton in the process.

For me, donkey of the race goes to whoever it was in the Red Bull garage who decided to leave Vettel and Webber out on inters while every one else changed to drys. They were a clear 1st and 2nd before that, but after it they were in a lot more trouble.

[52Paddy]

Hamilton pulled off some great overtaking moves today but then started whining in the closing stages which really peeved me off. Sore loser. In contrast, Alonso was struggling with Massa ahead and just on with it :up:

[BDunnell]

Schumi is one of my favourite drivers. I have called him Schumi and not Schuey because that is how he likes his name to be shortened/nickname.

Well, it's the German way of shortening it — the surname would never be shortened to 'Schuey' in German. A small but important difference.

[PSfan]

By his standards he drove as if he should've stayed retired but I will give him the benefit of the doubt in future.


I was just reading some stats from the race, MS finished 1:09.391 behind Button. Though Schumi spent almost a whole extra minute just on pit road compared to Button (1:26.773 to buttons 27.295) suggesting his race form wasn't all that bad considering the traffic he had to deal with... :p :

[airshifter]

I'm not even sure Webber drove well enough to be considered the donkey of the race. What an idiot, several times!

[call_me_andrew]

Donkey of the race? Button!

I don't care how well it worked out, he went to slicks too soon.

[Valve Bounce]

I'm not even sure Webber drove well enough to be considered the donkey of the race. What an idiot, several times!

Well, just about everyone here has voted Mark "Donkey" of the race.

Let's hope he kicks ass in the next race. :eek:

[Dave B]

Alonso's I think. Maybe it was racing accident and maybe not. Like Sutil who run into Kubica in Bahrain.
Button ruined Alonso's race by being in his blind spot?! Alonso made a mistake. Yes a racing incident, but totally the Spaniard's fault.

[ShiftingGears]

I would also like to add Ferrari for having mirrors that aren't actually in the drivers peripheral vision.

[Big Ben]

I have a small herd of donkeys for this race. Webber made too many mistakes. Hamilton behaved once more like a spoiled brat. Massa had to be told by his engineer how to take the last corner. The fact he finished 3rd was pure luck. The Schumacher again looked average in an average car. Thank you very much for coming back and showing us how little statistcs mean. I was also very disappointed to see Lotus starting the race with just one car.

[MrJan]

I just watched a replay of the accident again and I noticed Alonso badly locked up a brake on that corner. Hamilton was right up beside Alonso and in a great position to finally pass him on the outside and instead slammed on his brakes (as he had to as Alonso didn't have control of his car). Unfortunately, Webber was trying to follow Hamilton through past Alonso and had nowhere to go, taking out Hamilton in the process.

Mark was still going far too quick for that corner. Okay so he said that the nose was raised but IMO he gambled too much on Hamilton getting through on one of the best drivers in the business.

[I am evil Homer]

Hamilton pulled off some great overtaking moves today but then started whining in the closing stages which really peeved me off. Sore loser. In contrast, Alonso was struggling with Massa ahead and just on with it :up:

I don't get this...he's frustrated so showed it. People can't have it both ways and moan that he's being a "mclaren robot" then moan when he shows he's angry. Give the guy a break, he could have scored a podium were it not for an enitrely dumb team call and then Webber having total brain fade.

You want him to say he was happy with the result and getting some points?

[MrJan]

I don't get this...he's frustrated so showed it. People can't have it both ways and moan that he's being a "mclaren robot" then moan when he shows he's angry. Give the guy a break, he could have scored a podium were it not for an enitrely dumb team call and then Webber having total brain fade.

You want him to say he was happy with the result and getting some points?

Lewis showed a complete lack of class IMO. It wasn't that he complained, it was the way that he did it.

[F1boat]

I don't get this...he's frustrated so showed it. People can't have it both ways and moan that he's being a "mclaren robot" then moan when he shows he's angry. Give the guy a break, he could have scored a podium were it not for an enitrely dumb team call and then Webber having total brain fade.

You want him to say he was happy with the result and getting some points?

No! Everytime things are not going his way in the team, he is whining! Alonso was like this in Renault and McLaren (although in the latter case I think that he had good reasons), and I am really happy that he was different yesterday, unlike Lewis. I so hoped that he won't be like this, I think that if he loses another race in which Jenson is 1st he'd say that he is a second driver. Hopefully I am wrong.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/03/mclaren-two-sides-of-a-victory/ - this article is very interesting about the case IMO.

[Mia 01]

I don't get this...he's frustrated so showed it. People can't have it both ways and moan that he's being a "mclaren robot" then moan when he shows he's angry. Give the guy a break, he could have scored a podium were it not for an enitrely dumb team call and then Webber having total brain fade.

You want him to say he was happy with the result and getting some points?

Moan is one thing, public moaning on purpose is another.

What is his agenda?

The other day Lewis was arrested, huh, no moaning from the team!

I´m afraid Lewis isn´t Martins closest love anymoore.

[jens]

I'm actually starting to think that maybe replacing Webber with Kimi for 2011 wouldn't be a bad idea at all. :p :

The task of a second driver is to collect the goods, when the first driver has hit trouble, but Webber has done none of it so far. Quite staggering that Vettel still has twice as many points as Webber, despite suffering from two car failures in two races against Webber's zero. Webber is clearly fast and when he doesn't make mistakes, he is very close to Vettel's pace (one tenth off in qualifying in Oz), but something has been clearly wrong with his head in the beginning of this season. Not to mention that Webber has a reputation of being a dangerous driver by pushing off the track or ramming drivers (Alonso Spain'09, Barrichello Germany '09).

[I am evil Homer]

No! Everytime things are not going his way in the team, he is whining! Alonso was like this in Renault and McLaren (although in the latter case I think that he had good reasons), and I am really happy that he was different yesterday, unlike Lewis. I so hoped that he won't be like this, I think that if he loses another race in which Jenson is 1st he'd say that he is a second driver. Hopefully I am wrong.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/03/mclaren-two-sides-of-a-victory/ - this article is very interesting about the case IMO.

That is a very good article, as ever from James.

I just think people read way too much into it - he had huge pace yesterday but got shunted out. the post-race interview he was angry, and who wouldn't be. I bet today he is more restrained because he sees how things played out but 5 mins after the race i'd expected nothing less than what he showed.

The radio conversation was a different matter. That showed immaturity but then this is only his third season.

Lewis' biggest issue was his qualification performance that wasn't up to his usual standards and that put him under pressure. Not to mention the police incident...all in all not a great weekend for him

[Big Ben]

I apologize. I forgot we don't want pr robots anymore. So if he reacted like a spoiled brat, his natural way, I should be glad and even like him for it, right?

[ArrowsFA1]

That is a very good article, as ever from James.
It is a good article, even if it simply points out what people too often tend to forget:
Button is 30 years old and ten years into his F1 career, whereas Hamilton is 25 and only three years in. Perhaps because he won the title so early in his career and has been a front runner since day one, we forget that he still isn’t the complete package...

[wedge]

Well, it's the German way of shortening it — the surname would never be shortened to 'Schuey' in German. A small but important difference.

Air-ton/Aye-air-ton - I'd rather pronounce the latter out of respect for Senna.

Same with Kubi-za and not Kubi-ka

[bontebempo]

Mark Webber = Dickhead

Reb Bull should give his seat to anyone but him. Another rubbish drive.

[F1boat]

That is a very good article, as ever from James.

I just think people read way too much into it - he had huge pace yesterday but got shunted out. the post-race interview he was angry, and who wouldn't be. I bet today he is more restrained because he sees how things played out but 5 mins after the race i'd expected nothing less than what he showed.

The radio conversation was a different matter. That showed immaturity but then this is only his third season.

Lewis' biggest issue was his qualification performance that wasn't up to his usual standards and that put him under pressure. Not to mention the police incident...all in all not a great weekend for him

Vettel reacts better, at least when he speaks about his team, and he is even younger. But what is done is done, I disapprove, keep my fingers crossed for Jenson, time to move on :)

[markabilly]

I wonder who holds the record over the last three seasons for chopping and running into folks??? Could that be none other than everyone's favorite serial chopper??

[Big Ben]

I have a feeling whatever he does your opinion will not change, so please feel free to beleive what you want. I'm not here to change opinions but convey my own personal views. You could say 90% of the grid are spoiled brats if they get angry on a team radio or foolishly give honest views to the media. We've seen Lewis along with Vettel, Alonso and even Schumacher voice opinions this weekend, but ultimately Lewis will be the one guy everyone wants to talk about.

Its what goes with the territory of being the worlds most popular F1 driver.. :)

It's not like the first time he takes publicly such a stance against the team that backed him for so long and gave him a competitive car from day one. I don't recall any driver being backed like that or any rookie being put above a 2 times wdc. Yes, it's my opinion that this guy has a despicable character and all he does seem to prove I'm not wrong. He was the one that created the tension between FA and McLaren in Hungary and it worked fine for him but no one can say the same thing about the team. Even so they were behind him. Why? I don't know. Than he lied to disqualify an opponent and when discovered blamed again someone else from his team. And now this.

I was a McLaren fan before LH came along. Maybe some day they'll give him the boot. He deserves it.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's not like the first time he takes publicly such a stance against the team that backed him for so long and gave him a competitive car from day one. I don't recall any driver being backed like that...
I agree it's not the first time Hamilton has voiced his frustration, but then he's a competitive racing driver. He was hardly going to be happy about the way his Australian race panned out, particularly as his new team mate was up front winning the race.

There are similarities between Hamilton and Vettel as they both want to win, and they're both demanding of their teams. I have thought a number of times that Vettel has appeared very pissed off in front of the press when things haven't gone his way, but again I think that's understandable and in many ways it's good that we see their personalities in this way.

For some reason Hamilton seems to be the target of more criticism that others and this may have something to do with the way he made his way into F1. Some feel he was "gifted" his seat at McLaren, but whether that view is justified or not, the fact is he's a competitive sportsman who does not like losing.

[wedge]

I agree it's not the first time Hamilton has voiced his frustration, but then he's a competitive racing driver. He was hardly going to be happy about the way his Australian race panned out, particularly as his new team mate was up front winning the race.

There are similarities between Hamilton and Vettel as they both want to win, and they're both demanding of their teams. I have thought a number of times that Vettel has appeared very pissed off in front of the press when things haven't gone his way, but again I think that's understandable and in many ways it's good that we see their personalities in this way.

It's not the 'correct' way of doing things.

By all means voice your fustrations over the radio but no to the media, such things should be done behind closed doors.

Schumi has never done this and Massa has done well in taking Schumi's mantra of 'win as a team, lose as a team'.

[markabilly]

It's not the 'correct' way of doing things.

By all means voice your fustrations over the radio but no to the media, such things should be done behind closed doors.

Schumi has never done this and Massa has done well in taking Schumi's mantra of 'win as a team, lose as a team'.

I do not think he has learned that, and by now, since he has not, then he never will, although many others (including big name journalists) have said the same from the beginning of his driving as an F1 driver three years ago.

I used to have a big collection of his quotes in various posts that I guess remain somewhere buried in the archives, but one constant theme was how I could do this and do that, got the pole in Canada his first year because I am a better driver that did what no other driver could do...AND HOW I WON......but when it was less than stellar, it was either "we" or "they" or "the team" that did not do so well....

You would think that he would have learned by now that "I won, we lost" does not sit so well with some folks, esp. I would think with his team members....

but like I said, there are these political types, that no matter how bad they screw up, they walk through it as though it never happenned....perhaps explaining why I am where I am.

as to hating, I would hope we all recognize that in the world, f1 is of relatively minor importance, (read this morning's news about the Moscow subway) and while I am as quilty as anyone in bashing/making fun of drivers, it is not intended as hatred, but just more entertainment and fun


OTOH, if the fire don't burn, then they should not be there :vader:

and I think it burns in every driver whoever managed to make it to the f1 grid throughout history--with some it is a little more appearant either through their driving or their mouth :s mokin:

and speaking of why I am where I am, I gots to go cause I am late too work.... :eek:

[ArrowsFA1]

Schumi has never done this and Massa has done well in taking Schumi's mantra of 'win as a team, lose as a team'.
How do we know Schumi has never done it? We rarely got to hear Ferrari's radio comms when he was there, but I agree that the radio is one thing, and speaking to the media after the race is another.

Hamilton too has often expressed the 'win as a team, lose as a team' mantra.

[52Paddy]

I don't get this...he's frustrated so showed it. People can't have it both ways and moan that he's being a "mclaren robot" then moan when he shows he's angry. Give the guy a break, he could have scored a podium were it not for an enitrely dumb team call and then Webber having total brain fade.

You want him to say he was happy with the result and getting some points?

Many other posters have argued the point which I want to bring across. But, I guess I was comparing his demeanour to Button more than anything. Think of it, Button's race went downhill right from the beginning. He was left at the tail end of the field after a spin and, when he pitted for dry tyres, his car looked undriveable. I said to myself at that stage, "Well, Button's race is over." But, the tyres began to work and he ended up driving on and winning. There was no hostility between Button and the team. He wasn't bad-mouthing them when he went to drys, even when that setup didn't look favourable.

In Hamilton's case, he screwed up Qualifying. Then the team made a decision which was obviously with intentions of getting him to achieve a better result. He drove his heart out, no doubt, and the strategy may have compromised his run. But, Hamilton's driving style is far more aggressive that Button's so who is to say that, with a one-stop, Hamilton may have knackered his tyres and spun off or punctured. To let out at the team in the way he did I find to be immature. Which he is. He's only got 3 years experience. Yet, I can't help in thinking that he believes he's at the top of his game and has nothing to improve on. That if something goes wrong, it's the teams fault. He needs to build character and I believe he will, as many greats have done in the past. It's just annoying for the time-being and, as a result, he's my donkey of the race :)

[wedge]

Hamilton too has often expressed the 'win as a team, lose as a team' mantra.

Funny, being a McLaren driver with McLaren blood you would've thought that would've been drilled into him by now.

As with Rubens 'Blah, blah' Barrichello and Fernando 'sixth-tenths' Alonso it goes to show that there's nothing worse than being beaten by your team mate.

A shame we never saw how Schumi would've handled such debacles.

[F1boat]

A shame we never saw how Schumi would've handled such debacles.

Huh? He is beaten twice now by Rosberg and he didn't blame the team and only praised Nico.

[wmcot]

Donkey of the race? All those who said this year would be boring after Bahrain! :)

[F1boat]

Donkey of the race? All those who said this year would be boring after Bahrain! :)

Hah, so true :)

[Mia 01]

After watching the race for a second time I'll have to go back on my earlier post on this thread and declare Webber as the donkey of the race. This really was the most appalling drive of his career to date IMO, and he seemed to drive to lose rather than to win.

The irony of this IMO is if we look back to 2008, Webber was quite outspoken about Hamilton and slammed his agressive driving style. My memory might be a little rusty but apart from Canada, I don't remember Lewis aggressively pushing anyone off the race track during that period. Webber had 2 incidents where he effectively forced Hamilton wide in one instance and rammed him off in the second. Carrying too much speed into a corner with virtually no chance of making it stick (twice), leads me to the conclusion Webber is deserving of this title. He also had incident last year in Germany where he pushed Ruben's on the grass at 180mph, so I would go as far to say that Webber, Schuey and Hamilton are probably the most aggressive drivers on the grid at present.

Webber needs to keep his head or Mateschitz will be phoning Kimi to find out if he has any free time next March and beyond.. :p :)

So thrue. Webber are under great pressure, but thats no excuse.

[V12]

I vote Bernie as Donkey of the race for the second year running for making the race start later making it harder to watch, I luckily managed to stay awake for the race but fell asleep and missed qualifying :mad:

[555-04Q2]

Webber for sure.

[RMLCruzeing82]

Webber closely followed by Alonso

[Azumanga Davo]

Webber closely followed by Alonso

Good thing it wasn't the other way, Webber might have nerfed him off too. :p :

[wedge]

Huh? He is beaten twice now by Rosberg and he didn't blame the team and only praised Nico.

In his prime, fighting for WDC, in a team insisting on 'equality'.

[F1boat]

In his prime, fighting for WDC, in a team insisting on 'equality'.

and would you want him to dance a little for you? ;)

[ioan]

A shame we never saw how Schumi would've handled such debacles.

Schumi did lose to his team mates on occasions but he never threw a tantrum.

[ioan]

I vote Bernie as Donkey of the race for the second year running for making the race start later making it harder to watch, I luckily managed to stay awake for the race but fell asleep and missed qualifying :mad:

:confused:
You could not wake up at 7?!

[ioan]

In his prime, fighting for WDC, in a team insisting on 'equality'.

He did lose at least a race to any of his team mates, and he never had a hysteria attack, so what exactly are you talking about?

[BDunnell]

Schumi did lose to his team mates on occasions but he never threw a tantrum.

At least he always seemed to behave properly in public. What he was like behind the scenes surely only those who are genuinely in the know, unlike any of us posting on here, can say.

[wedge]

He did lose at least a race to any of his team mates, and he never had a hysteria attack, so what exactly are you talking about?

Martin Brundle claims Schumi tried to take him off the track in Hungary 1992 because Brundle could beat Schumi on occasions.

[F1boat]

Martin is a British journalists and I don't think that he can be trusted WHEN there is no evidence of foul play. It is interesting that yes, Michael was supported, but when he was put into the role of a 2nd driver, like in the end of 1999, he duly obeyed. And for me his reaction now is enough - he handles losing well.

[ArrowsFA1]

Schumi did lose to his team mates on occasions but he never threw a tantrum.
So when Herbert was a little quicker and Schumi told Flavio his team-mate would not be allowed to see his telemetry in future, but he, Schumi, could see Herbert's he was being entirely fair and open?

[F1boat]

So when Herbert was a little quicker and Schumi told Flavio his team-mate would not be allowed to see his telemetry in future, but he, Schumi, could see Herbert's he was being entirely fair and open?

No. He was exploring the team.

[ArrowsFA1]

No. He was exploring the team.
Ahhhh, ok :) :s mokin:

[F1boat]

lol ;)

[wedge]

but when he was put into the role of a 2nd driver, like in the end of 1999, he duly obeyed. And for me his reaction now is enough - he handles losing well.

It was not that simple. Schumi cared most about fighting WDC for himself. Initially he was reluctant to return as #2 role and it was Todt who had to persuade Schumi to play the team game.

[Garry Walker]

Indeed, I remember reading an article where LdM phoned Michael while he was still signed off and Michaels son answered the phone. When Luca asked where Michael was, his son declared that he was in the shower after playing football.. Luca flew into a rage and demanded he drive in the remaining races of the 1999 season or he wouldn't be driving for Ferrari in 2000, and Todt was left to do abit of relationship repair work.. :p

I have a feeling that was a Business F1 article so a little bit of salt is needed.. Funny story though.. :)

It was Schumachers daughter who was 3 years old at that time. Surely at three years of age she could speak english freely. So I reckon Luca was just speaking crap.

[ioan]

Martin Brundle claims Schumi tried to take him off the track in Hungary 1992 because Brundle could beat Schumi on occasions.

Let's claim something, maybe we can do better than Brundle!

[ioan]

Indeed, I remember reading an article where LdM phoned Michael while he was still signed off and Michaels son answered the phone. When Luca asked where Michael was, his son declared that he was in the shower after playing football.. Luca flew into a rage and demanded he drive in the remaining races of the 1999 season or he wouldn't be driving for Ferrari in 2000, and Todt was left to do abit of relationship repair work.. :p

That's a fishy story especially that Mercedes were trying to get MS drive a McLaren in 2000, so MS could have told LDM to go do something in a dark place.

[ioan]

It was not that simple. Schumi cared most about fighting WDC for himself. Initially he was reluctant to return as #2 role and it was Todt who had to persuade Schumi to play the team game.

Let's be honest, not many of us would accept 2nd level status without lot of persuasion and sweetening.

[wedge]

That's a fishy story especially that Mercedes were trying to get MS drive a McLaren in 2000, so MS could have told LDM to go do something in a dark place.

Well James Allen used it for his book, 'Michael Schumacher - Edge of Greatness'.

Oh, and before you accuse of being a trolling journalist he is a Schumi lover who written another book, concluded on his career that his brilliance slightly outweighed his negatives and named his son Enzo!

[ioan]

Well James Allen used it for his book, 'Michael Schumacher - Edge of Greatness'.

Oh, and before you accuse of being a trolling journalist he is a Schumi lover who written another book, concluded on his career that his brilliance slightly outweighed his negatives and named his son Enzo!

I didn't accuse him of anything, why are you making things up?

[BDunnell]

I didn't accuse him of anything, why are you making things up?

Because, with respect, it is just the sort of thing you would say if James Allen's opinion didn't happen to coincide with yours on this issue.

[ioan]

Because, with respect, it is just the sort of thing you would say if James Allen's opinion didn't happen to coincide with yours on this issue.

Sorry to disappoint you. :D

[BDunnell]

Sorry to disappoint you. :D

No disappointment — no surprise, but no disappointment.

[Mia 01]

I´m not dissapointed at the moment Nico is better than MS, and probably its very hard for MS to catch up.

The donkey is, sorry, still Mark.

[wedge]

Let's be honest, not many of us would accept 2nd level status without lot of persuasion and sweetening.

With the WDC fight over why should it have been a problem to Schumacher? What did Schumi have to lose from playing #2 with the last few remaining races? Pride? Face? If it was the case then hat's a bit sad, isn't it?

[PSfan]

I'm sorry for being to lazy to go back a couple pages to see exactly what we are talking about, but from what I can gather, MS is being considered donkey of the 2010 Australian gp because he didn't help Irvine win the championship back in 1999?

or did I accidentally get a thread from the History and Nostalgia forum by mistake? :cheese:

[52Paddy]

I'm sorry for being to lazy to go back a couple pages to see exactly what we are talking about, but from what I can gather, MS is being considered donkey of the 2010 Australian gp because he didn't help Irvine win the championship back in 1999?

Exactly.

[Mia 01]

Exactly.

You lot got a point there, but MS will be better this wekend.

Webber the goose the last race.

Who will hire him next year?

[Mia 01]

Who will hire MS next year?

[ioan]

Who will hire MS next year?

Apparently he already has a 3 year contract.