Red bull, ride height control reason for qualy pace?

[Zico]

Martin Whitmarsh is suggesting that Red bull and maybe others (Ferrari?) are using some form of ride height control system

Interview here..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8590493.stm


While Red Bull deny having any such system.. http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKLDE62Q01P20100327

Makes sense, could explain why Mclaren were able to get near the race pace of the front runners but were way off the pace in qualifying a fortnight ago..

[Sonic]

I did read about this elsewhere; I'll look for the link as it explained it far better than I ever could.

[truefan72]

Martin Whitmarsh is suggesting that Red bull and maybe others (Ferrari?) are using some form of ride height control system

Interview here..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8590493.stm


While Red Bull deny having any such system.. http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKLDE62Q01P20100327

Makes sense, could explain why Mclaren were able to get near the race pace of the front runners but were way off the pace in qualifying a fortnight ago..

might be something to it.

time will tell

[ioan]

As long as the ride height is only changed when the car is stopped it is a legal approach.

[N. Jones]

Martin Whitmarsh is suggesting that Red bull and maybe others (Ferrari?) are using some form of ride height control system

Interview here..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8590493.stm


While Red Bull deny having any such system.. http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKLDE62Q01P20100327

Makes sense, could explain why Mclaren were able to get near the race pace of the front runners but were way off the pace in qualifying a fortnight ago..

This can be read as "They are faster than us so they must be cheating."

This is an alternative to "They thought of something we didn't so they must be cheating."

This is a typical response from any team.

[Wasted Talent]

Must admit that the Red Bull's do seem to be able to run a lot lower in qualifying.

Interesting bit at the end of the reuters piece that Horner (and so Red Bull) are happy with the legality of teh McLaren rear wing

WT

[Sonic]

As long as the ride height is only changed when the car is stopped it is a legal approach.

Yes. Ferrari have a system, do they not, whereby they alter ride height mechanically in the pit stops.

However I was under the impression that the cars in parc ferme could not be touched aside from front wing angles and tyre pressures. Therefore if red bull alter the RH between end of quali and the start of the GP perhaps there is cause for investigation.

[AndyL]

Read some speculation somewhere that they could be taking advantage of the fact that you're allowed to re-gas the shocks in parc ferme. Complete speculation though.

[ioan]

Yes. Ferrari have a system, do they not, whereby they alter ride height mechanically in the pit stops.

However I was under the impression that the cars in parc ferme could not be touched aside from front wing angles and tyre pressures. Therefore if red bull alter the RH between end of quali and the start of the GP perhaps there is cause for investigation.

What if it's done by the driver between the end of the formation lap and the start of the race?

[Koz]

Makes sense, could explain why Mclaren were able to get near the race pace of the front runners but were way off the pace in qualifying a fortnight ago..

That or maybe merc engines don't need as much fuel? So while other cars are quicker, they need more fuel and are thus heavier which hampers them slightly in the race?

[CNR]

Martin Whitmarsh should know what the difference between push rod and pull rod suspension is so is he just throwing mud at red bull

redbull use pullrod

http://www.f1technical.net/articles/39


The advantages of a pull rod lie in the possibility to make the nose lower

[F1boat]

What does it matter when these cars can't finish a race. It's like Williams in 2002, great in qualy, but only in qualy...

[Dave B]

Whitmarsh was careful on the BBC coverage to praise Red Bull for their innovation - possibly mindful that their own duct system wasn't banned.

Tricks like these should be looked at carefully, but obviously if the FIA are happy with their legality then there's no problem.

Remember: there is no "spirit" to the rules! :p

[F1boat]

Of course, but there is letter and it is important. :)

[AndyL]

FIA announce they will deem any ride height adjustment device used in parc ferme to be against the rules:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82763
Red Bull still maintain they don't have such a thing:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82741
Which leaves us to wonder how their car was grounding out so noticeably in low fuel qualifying in Oz.

[Saint Devote]

I think Red Bull are telling porkies. Not cheating.

I do so because they have a "boff" named Adrian Newey who is the beginning and the end when it comes to ride heights and racing cars dating back to the marvellous Leyton House chassis.

Still one of my disappointments in racing - watching Ivan Capelli lose the lead of the 1990 French Grand Prix at Paul Ricard with five laps to go.

If the FIA do make discovery then it would be similar to what happened to Renault in 2006 with their damper system. [2005?] Although that was overt.

[e2mtt]

I could easily imagine a system where a both race & a qualifying setting could be designed into the suspension. Pressurised gas or air could set it to the qualifying setting, and then it could be set to either slowly leak out overnight, or be manually released while the car is being prepped on the grid.

[Retro Formula 1]

Which would mean that when the car tries to go to the grid for the race, it would sit with it's belly down and lose most of it skid tray not to mention drive and braking.

The only way to make this work is to change height during the race. Red Bull claim they are not doing this so unless the FIA prove different, then that's the end of it. Pure speculation otherwise.

[Mark]

It couldn't be changed in Parc Ferme, but presumably could when the car is on the grid?

But.. what about a fully automatic system? One which if the car is light it will drop it down but if it is heavy will provide a bit more resistance. That wouldn't have to be altered by anyone.

[wmcot]

I hear the Red Bull system is operated by a bladder pressed by the driver's knee during qualifying to release gas from the damper and alter the height...wait...I might be mixing two things up. :)

[snow_zone]

I did notice the Red Bull bottoming out in Melbourne where others were not, but as has been said its pure speculation. If there is a system on the car, then Red Bull would be stupid to assume the FIA won't find it. Then again is this other teams trying to spook the opposition and cause unnecessary aggro? Juicy.. :)

It really doesn’t seem as if Red Bull really have a system.... the FIA have clarified the rules and apparently there can be no change at all between qualifying and the race (other than tyre pressures of course)

http://www.madeinmotorsport.com/en/headlines/news-f1-fia-clarify-ride-height-regulations-3057.html

[edv]

When does Parc Ferme come into effect? When the car pulls to a stop after Q?
So there is an entire cool-down lap after final Q wherein the lever can be thrown (or special button on the steering wheel)?

[Mia 01]

It really doesn’t seem as if Red Bull really have a system.... the FIA have clarified the rules and apparently there can be no change at all between qualifying and the race (other than tyre pressures of course)

http://www.madeinmotorsport.com/en/headlines/news-f1-fia-clarify-ride-height-regulations-3057.html


Agreed.

It seems as MacLaren are scared of RBRs speed. What shall we do.

[AndyL]

When does Parc Ferme come into effect? When the car pulls to a stop after Q?
So there is an entire cool-down lap after final Q wherein the lever can be thrown (or special button on the steering wheel)?

I think parc ferme rules begin at the start of qualifying.

[Mark]

I think parc ferme rules begin at the start of qualifying.

34.1 Each car will be deemed to be in parc fermé from the time at which it leaves the pit lane for the first time during qualifying practice until the start of the race. Any car which fails to leave the pit lane during qualifying practice will be deemed to be in parc fermé at the end of Q1.

[Mia 01]

No other team can copy Adrian.

That´s it really!

[edv]

34.1 Each car will be deemed to be in parc fermé from the time at which it leaves the pit lane for the first time during qualifying practice until the start of the race. Any car which fails to leave the pit lane during qualifying practice will be deemed to be in parc fermé at the end of Q1.

What is "qualifying practice" ? Is it Free Practice 1 on Friday?

[harvick#1]

Agreed.

It seems as MacLaren are scared of RBRs speed. What shall we do.

as is the case, if you cant beat them, they must be cheating, RBR just has a very fast car

[Triumph]

I thought that maybe it was all in the wording. Christian Horner denied that they had a system for adjusting the ride height, which I don't doubt for a moment. Reading between the lines, I took that to mean that there was something other than a system as such. Maybe a procedure rather than a system.

We will have to see if their qualifying pace suffers relative to the rest of the field now that the regulations have been clarified.

[AndyL]

I thought that maybe it was all in the wording. Christian Horner denied that they had a system for adjusting the ride height, which I don't doubt for a moment. Reading between the lines, I took that to mean that there was something other than a system as such. Maybe a procedure rather than a system.

I agree, I think Christian Horner may be playing semantic games. Perhaps he means that rather than a system for adjusting the ride height, they have a system for keeping it the same ;)

[schmenke]

What is "qualifying practice" ? Is it Free Practice 1 on Friday?

I think "qualifying practice" begins once the lights go green at the start of Q1.
Friday and Saturday morning are considered "free practice" sessions.

[Sonic]

I think "qualifying practice" begins once the lights go green at the start of Q1.
Friday and Saturday morning are considered "free practice" sessions.

Correct.

I also note that McLaren have frozen development on their own active ride suspension, however reading between the lines again it would seem they still believe that someone is running a trick suspension system. The article is on autosport but for some reason I'm having trouble cutting and pasting so if someone could help me out and stick in a link that would be awesome! :)

[i_max2k2]

Correct.

I also note that McLaren have frozen development on their own active ride suspension, however reading between the lines again it would seem they still believe that someone is running a trick suspension system. The article is on autosport but for some reason I'm having trouble cutting and pasting so if someone could help me out and stick in a link that would be awesome! :)

I guess your referring to this



There has even been talk in the paddock that Red Bull may be using compressed gas to push the car down for qualifying, before the gas is released - through time or a temperature change - to then allow the car to run higher for the race when a heavy fuel load needs to be added.

from this article

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82741

This is a interesting theory, but I doubt FIA wouldn't find out about this if it was true.

[Sonic]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82853

Ok so the gremlins are out of the system now and I can post.

The line I found interesting was this;


"Now that the FIA has taken a fresh view of it and drawn a different line - and one we think is nearer the historical line"

Which suggests to me they still see some scope for passive suspension with active qualities. Thoughts?

[CNR]

with redbull using pullrod all it would take is something in the rear of the car
this could be something as simple as an attachpoint that pulls the rear suspension up when the car is heavy with fuel

[Sonic]

Interesting theory. It would certainly explain why Newey stuck with Pulls when every other team see it as a compromise too far.

[truefan72]

Interesting theory. It would certainly explain why Newey stuck with Pulls when every other team see it as a compromise too far.

yep.

not one to feed into conspiracy theories, but there seems something odd about their qualy form. and I really don't believe it is them sandbagging practice, because once they are in the race, their performance seems to be back on par with the other top teams. So there's got to be something they are doing in qQualy that is not being done in the race or practice. And since cars are in PF after qualy it is odd that the performance comes back down to earth in the race.

[ioan]

with redbull using pullrod all it would take is something in the rear of the car
this could be something as simple as an attachpoint that pulls the rear suspension up when the car is heavy with fuel

That's an interesting theory.

[Mysterious Rock]

is it then tecnically possible to hang the car off the suspension system, allowing the height to stay the same regardless of weight, something with the pull rod system to do it
Im just trying o understand, perhaps there is a way that the more force going down in weight exerts the force through the tyres, whatever it is is pretty clever